Adam Hill - Triathlete, Author

This is episode 194 of the Empowered Team Podcast. Welcome to the Empowered Team Podcast, where we explore how to optimize your performance in career, sport and life. And now your host, executive coach and life strategist, Kari Schneider.

Welcome to the Empowered Team Podcast. I am so excited to have our guest today. We've got Adam Hill. And Adam, you've got this incredible story of going from anxiety, depression and potentially alcoholism to becoming a world championship in triathlon and then writing a book about it and taking over a family company and doing all the things that come with marriage and family and all of that stuff. So this is a very intriguing story to me. And upon reading some of your book, there are parts in there that had me in stitches because of the realness. And so inevitably, I'm very excited to have you on. So welcome. Adam, have I missed anything that you'd like to share about your introduction?

No, that covers it pretty well. No, I appreciate you having me here. I'm really excited to be here.

Amazing. Ok, so now I kind of led you in with. There's a history there. There's some anxiety, there's some depression, there's some alcoholism. And upon reading certain areas of your book, you point to almost how insidious that came into your life. But before we dive into that heavy, heavy stuff, I have to point to, I don't know if many of our listeners will know what this is, but when I read it, I did. I knew exactly what it was. And it's Budgie Smugglers. Budgie Smugglers. I know what that is. And I was like, I haven't heard this in years. I'm like, I think it's only relevant to the triathlon world because I think I've only ever heard that term in the triathlon world. And I'm not going to tell our listeners what it is because if they don't know, they can Google it. But better yet, they can check out that chapter. I don't know if it's chapter three or whatever it is and in your book, because Budgie Smugglers is, and maybe we'll give a hint later in there with another term that I think everyone will be familiar with. But, but to start on the lighter note, I love how you describe some of your childhood, some of your experiences, some of what created either circumstance or set the stage for some of the choices that you made later in life and you described. I don't, I don't know if this is a word, but I'm just remembering kind of like super spaz Uncomfortable, Awkward. Those were some of the impressions I got from your childhood. How would you describe some of your childhood? Because it really is relevant to leading you to what you've accomplished now.

Yeah. And I'll preface by saying that you'll want to be careful to. By Googling budgie smugglers. You'll want to have the safe search on, probably.

Right.

You don't want to go too far down that rabbit hole.

Not going in the dark web on this one or the, I don't know, the porn sites. No, don't do that.

Yeah, yeah. Just a word of caution, that's all.

Keep it clean. Keep it clean, people.

Yeah. Yeah. So my childhood was great. I mean, I had a. And I wanted to preface by saying that that. That a lot of the anxiety issues that I experienced later on, they were fairly dormant in my younger life, but they expressed themselves more in the form of just social awkwardness or, you know, it was just that awkward nerdy kid that, you know, didn't have a ton of friends and didn't really fit in with the. With the cliquey crowds and all that. But generally speaking, I look back on my childhood very fondly. I had great parents, I had a great family and grew up in a very safe and excellent childhood. I didn't really want for anything. And so, I mean, I lived next to the beach, I surfed and all this kind of cool stuff. And I think that part of my story, I want to share that coming from that place of privilege that, you know, that they're. That. That doesn't necessarily influence how things like anxiety manifest themselves later, because they still can. And I know that a lot of people can. Can. Can struggle with that. So, you know, I did grow up pretty normal childhood, you know, with. With a lot of. A lot of what I would call privilege and, And. And. And excellent parents and all that kind of stuff. So I was really blessed and you know, quite honestly led to a lot of guilt. I mean, it actually contributed to very guilty and shameful feelings about some of the things that I was getting into, like the anxiety. Like I didn't deserve to feel that way.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? So. So that. That was kind of an interesting dynamic I felt because I'm like, well, why should I feel this way? I'm going to the. I'm going to school at the beach. I'm feeling, you know, I. I have a great life. You know, I don't deserve to. I shouldn't be feeling this way.

It's interesting that you say that because I Was in a situation coaching some people. And in the situation there was one partner who had gone through a lot of trauma, like a lot of trauma, and the other partner who hadn't, and the other partner who hadn't gone through a lot of trauma was still dealing with various things in life, whether it be feeling closed off, feeling isolated, some loneliness, some, you know, various things. But was having a hard time addressing any of that because it felt to that person so minimal compared to what their partner had gone through, compared to some of the what we as a society and consider greater issues or problems. And if you don't mind me pointing to some of the experiences that you had as a kid, because there's this and sorry, I don't want to just to relate here as well. I experienced a lot of stuff as a kid and moving around and challenging things within my family household. And my oldest daughter, who's 22, she knows about these things. And I think at one point in her maturing, discovering what she was going through, but then having that same kind of guilt that you have where it's like, well, wait a second, how can I feel this way when someone else has experienced, especially somebody close to me has experienced this or this? But the reality is, is that fear is fear or anxiety is anxiety. And whether it came from an awful traumatic situation or it came from something that seemed less, it's still, to our physiology, to our humanness, is still something that feels the same from that person to that person. So it's interesting that you experience that and I don't want to minimize that. There were some things you pointed to in your book, like the fight set up, for instance. I moved to a new school and I had a fight set up. I was in. Two older girls decided, oh, here's the new girl, we're going to set her up with a fight with someone else. And passed a bunch of notes, the whole school note. I had no issue with this other person. And you were in a similar kind of thing, not set up necessarily, but ultimately you had had enough of being pushed around. And you don't forget those things. And if they're, if they're not dealt with, even if you had a freaking fantastic family, you know, you still had some things go on that maybe there's an unfinished emotional business from the past or whatever.

Yeah. And that's a funny story because even to this day, still I don't remember or I don't know know why I forgot I had a fight that day. That's something you don't forget. I mean, yeah, so. And that. That story is in the book. But the, you know, the genesis is, you know, is that I had been picked on a little bit, of course, from, and I just had enough from this particular person. And so, you know, I turned around and I started to push back and you know, we did the pretty cliche oh, I'll meet you outside the oak tree, you know, once we get off the bus kind of thing.

And that just doesn't happen only in Canada. It happen. Happens everywhere, I guess.

So. Yeah. And. And so, you know, I got home that, that, that day and, and, and just wasn't even thinking about it anymore. My, my mom had said, had said, hey, don't go anywhere because I'm going to go to the store, dude, or somewhere. And so, you know, I stayed home and suddenly I hear a knock at the door and one of my friends shows up or. I'm sorry, one of. One of those kids shows up and says, hey, are you coming to fight. Fight this kid?

Your appointment.

Yeah, your point? But you have an appointment. You're late. And, and I said, well, you know, and, and you know, obviously not thinking very, very clearly because this was going to get me more in trouble, but. But I can't because my mom won't let me leave. So, you know, that, that was. So he, he kind of left with this information like, oh my gosh, I am about to be the most popular kid school right now. And he went out. He, he. And I suppose he told the rest of the kids because by the time I got to school the next day, it was, it was brutal. Yeah, I.

Unleashing of childhood, you know.

Yeah, yeah, the verbal, the physical. Yeah, I was, you know, we, we didn't even get to the Pledge of Allegiance at that point because that's something, you know, we do in, in the United States. We, you know, we, we stand for the Pledge of Allegiance and in the morning it's the first thing we do. And, and so we st. Next to me, I remember, just punched me in the stomach so that I doubled over and I had to sit down. And then my teacher yelled at me for sitting down during the Pledge of Allegiance. So I just asked to go to the nurse's office and got taken home because saying I was sick. I don't remember if I told anybody about that until I put it in the book. But yeah, that was, I mean, and that, that's something that I had felt like, you know, certainly I'm not alone on. There's. There's kids that have done that it was just, it's a demonstration of kind of my social awkwardness, you know, of, of how, you know, I always kind of put myself in very awkward situations. You know, another example is when I tried to travel for football. As somebody who didn't want to get hit or get in fights or anything like that, that's a bad sport to choose.

Great sport.

So yeah, it was. And baseball, I tried my, my hand at baseball and that was always something I was, I was terrible at. I was terrible at ball sports because I had this. I believe that's where a lot of the genesis of the fear kind of manifested itself at that age. You know, your coach, when you're playing baseball, always tells you step into the ball when it's, when it's pitched and then swing away because that's where your power comes from. That's how you're going to hit it outside of the outfield. But I looked at the ball in my mind, did the math on that and saying some other kid is throwing a fastball at 70 miles an hour toward me, not necessarily at me, but that doesn't mean it can't be at me. So my reflex is going to be stepping away where there's no power and then I swing. So I had like a batting average of you know, 0.05 or something like that. It was terrible. Uh, I was second string bench warmer for my high school baseball team that went oh and 10 that year. Um, yeah, so, so not a lot of sports background for me just because, primarily because of the fear that I would feel and I would lean into comfort more often than I would lean into discomfort. And that comfort obviously led to longer term pain. While, you know, while if I leaned into some level of discomfort, it might have been immediate pain, but it would have been longer term growth.

It's interesting, like the title of your book is Shifting Gears and I love how you have described your childhood in such a relatable, funny, heartwarming, sometimes hilarious and fun way because it just brings someone through your journey in a way that they can relate to it. But then understand how especially as you're flashing forward to future scenarios of where the bigger successes or bigger failures somehow kind of the thread ties to all of these different things in what created who you are. So it's a really neat experience. Experience from that perspective and funny. I love the funny. That's, that's awesome. But you just pointed to something that I, you know, there's a bit of a self, self deprecation and like I wasn't good at this. I wasn't good at that. I wasn't good at this. And at the same time, there was something that you found that you were really freaking good at in that developmental time. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and that, that was an interesting moment was I, you know, I played cello ever since elementary school, and I would. I never really put a lot of effort into it, and like everything else, I was just kind of mediocre. But once I got into high school, I did start to. I got very lucky in high school. I met a really, really great friend who, you know, I shared a brain with. And I don't know if, if you've had this experience or any of your listeners, I'm sure people have that, that find their soulmate that earlier, not, not like in the sense that they share just this bond of, of knowing each other at that deeper level. And I found that with my friend Bryn, you know, and, and I was very fortunate because he was kind of like the yang to my yin in the sense that I was socially awkward and, you know, was. Was afraid of letting that out of being myself. He was, he may have been a bit socially awkward, but he embraced it and he allowed that side of me to come out as well. And for that reason, I believe that that part, that, that in part helped me to, to surface some of the maybe superpowers that I'd had. And, and I, and I think those superpowers came from a bit of my anxious or fearful nature. In this sense, it was obsession and that, that, you know, so that obsession came out by, by starting to get into music a little bit more, playing the cello and becoming quite good at it. So that I was at that point once, you know, a couple of years in high school, I made it into our all state orchestra. So I was, you know, fifth chair in the state and, and all of the honor orchestras. And I even got a scholarship to college to play music. So that obsessive nature led me to actually practicing two hours a day. And it probably helped that I didn't have much of a social life outside of, you know, hanging out with Bryn every once in a while. But yeah, that was where I started to excel was with music. And that was the first experience I had with some level of learning discipline, which was a superpower I gained from the obsessive nature that I had.

Yeah, that focus and that discipline, that's really, it's really powerful because you've got this. It's the two sides. You're Describing the two sides of the same hand, not only with your friendship, but also with the discipline, obsessive focus, in that it is what it is. It's not that it's good or bad. It's that it's got a dual function. It can go one direction, but it can easily go the other direction, too. I'm making all kinds of hand gestures for those who are listening to the podcast right now. Some people need to watch the video every once in a while, but it's interesting how you recognize that in your friend Bryn. And also. And I'm sure that at the time, you're not seeing it, and hindsight's always 2020 in what we're able to retrospectively look back at. But. But you describe this. This superpower, you know, this level of discipline. You call it obsession, in a way. And. And there was someone who introduced that to you that in this. This wasn't necessarily the book per se, but you describe as a key mentor. And I'm curious. There was something that you wrote to me saying that. Not sure where she is now.

Yeah.

Has it occurred to you to reach. Reach out to us and you can say who you're. Who I'm referring to. But yeah.

Yeah. And that was my cello teacher who I'd met when. When I was, you know, in high school. And she was one of the best cello teachers in. I mean, in my opinion, the best cello teacher in Southern California. She had a true eccentric kind of demeanor. Her name was Joanne Lundy, but, you know, eccentric in the sense that any virtuoso musician might have, but such a powerful mentor in that she really cared about the development of her students. And, you know, I believe I realized that at the time, but I didn't realize the amplitude at which that existed until much later, till way beyond, you know, after I became sober many, many years later, that. That, you know, the influence that she had in my life at that. At that time, that she taught me for the first time that I could achieve more than I thought I was capable of. That the level. I thought that. That putting ourselves on this level. Right. And now I'm doing the hand gestures, but putting. Putting ourselves on that level we're at right now, and then looking upward at the top of this grand staircase and seeing this thing at the top that we would want to achieve and thinking to ourselves, well, I certainly can't get there. But her just kind of taking those steps and just pointing at the next step and saying, well, the first step to get there is just right here. So can you just take that step and then continuing to do that through the process until that top step became just the next indicated step that we would have to take to get there and that less. Those lessons were so powerful to me. I've Googled in the past, Joanne, and tried to look up, and I think she ended up somewhere in Florida. I haven't done it in a while, but as you bring it up now, it's actually probably a good idea that I do. My hope is that she is still with us because at the time, I think she was probably in her late 50s, early 60s, and that was 25, 30 years ago.

If you found her, what would you say?

Certainly. Thank you. And I would want to just share briefly the story that I, that I shared and that, you know, even. Even now, as I, As I move to the next phases of my life, as I'm, you know, as. As I have, you know, been able to transform my health in psychologically, spiritually, and physically, that now I want to get back. That I would love to get back to those roots and actually start to play and get back into symphonies and do that. And that. That is something that I do have back on my bucket list again is. Is to, you know, is to start doing that down the line and get back into that. So I would definitely tell her that and tell her how she influenced me and I def. And I definitely will do that. Yeah. So I appreciate that it's out there in the world.

It's more than just a thought and a notion now. Now you've put it into the world and you've put some. You've got some accountability to it. So that's really powerful.

Yeah, well, it's. It's a. I. And, you know, I. I think the teachers in this world, because I'm still friends with, with Brin, he's a teacher now, and, And I know that he gets a lot of response for, you know, and thank you for. For what he's done now. But I just don't think we can. We can thank our mentors enough and reach out to them and say, here's where I'm at now. A lot of the reason because of what you have taught me. And, you know, thank you for that. So.

And kudos to you because you're. You are creating that in not only your coaching and your leadership, but also in sharing your story through the book and through podcasts and so that it, you know, there. There can be so many people that you touch that you have no idea. But it's. It's another form of that mentorship. So that people have the example of not only familiarity, but then what's possible. And our listeners don't fully have the full picture of some of what you've gone through, but you've hit some depths of unhealthiness, let's call it unhealthiness from the whole spectrum, from the mental, the physical, the far reaching side of obsession, let's say. So bring us, bring us into where you started getting into more substance abuse. And you know where that led you.

Yeah, absolutely. So when I, when I started to enter college, that, that's really when things did start to change for me to the, to the negative. And you know, it's hard to pinpoint what exactly caused that shift or, and it may be a chicken or the egg argument of whether the substances led to the, to the anxiety coming up or the anxiety led to more substances. But, you know, the environment changed for me and it was such that pretty, pretty quickly when I entered college, I just realized that I didn't. Even though I was in the most beautiful place in the world, I went to the University of California in Santa Barbara. I mean, there's no more beautiful school than that. It's right on the ocean. It's gorgeous. I know. And I was, you know, I was lucky to get a scholarship there for music and continue playing, but I didn't, I felt really lost when I entered that because, and a lot of it was that, that shame of, of, of feeling like, look, I'm in this great place. Why am I feeling so depressed or sad? And it started with sadness that first year. And really that was offset by the fact that when I was able to pick up a drink, you know, and go to a party and, and pick up a drink, I immediately felt a sense of relief, a sense of belonging, a sense of that, that my social anxieties were thrown out the window. That I could, you know, be amongst friends and be the life of the party and just belong. And that was so powerful to me that I wanted to chase it every single weekend. And you know, I did. And that, that, that those first experiences were not, you know, you know, within, within the rooms of the recovery. They say, you know, first it's fun, then it's fun with problems, then it's just problems. And nothing is more true than that because at the beginning it was fun and I didn't have any indication to think of it as a problem. I didn't know I had an anxiety disorder at that time. I knew I had this low level Depression of like, why, you know, why am I feeling this? But that sense of like, okay, well, two or three beers, you know, makes that go away and makes me feel really good and there's no consequences to that and I can stop. Well, you know, there wasn't really any indication that I was going to be a problem drinker for that, for that, after that. But then of course, you know, the insidious nature of it that you'd mentioned earlier, you know, it took a year and or two to really develop into, well, you know, one night out of maybe 50 would be like, hey, dude, you kind of got out of control last night.

Yeah.

Like, well, so does everybody else. That's fine.

You know, very much a social culture around drinking in the, in the world. This isn't just, you know, in Santa Barbara.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and that's certainly the way I felt. And I was justifying that to myself because the more, the worse it got, the more I continued to justify it and the more that was my reality. I mean, this wasn't just me trying to be a bad person and say, yeah, this is, you know, no, I'm trying. But it really felt that way, like this was normal behavior because I could, I was pinpointing and directly pointing out the people that were doing it with me. And so over time, it did become fun with problems where, you know, I would occasionally have some problems with the law. I would get a minor in possession with alcohol or I would, you know, I got one drunk in public at one point and, you know, spent the night in jail. And, and, and so when it got to that level, it got to this point where anxiety was starting to become a bigger issue. I was starting to have these low level hypochondria kind of moments like, like, you know, feel a pain in my side. It must be appendicitis and I'm going to die if nothing if I don't do anything about it. So I remember, I remember being in the emergency room just because I had a little bit, maybe gas, I don't know, but just a sideache. And I thought it was appendicitis. And I'm like, you got to take my appendix out. And, and of course they didn't. They probably gave me like Tums or something and sent me home after the night. But, but that was, that was my experience with that. Or, or I'd find something in my mouth and go to the dentist and say, this is definitely cancer, you know.

Or you're HIV stint.

Yeah. And that was the Big one that really told me that I have something, that there's something wrong here, that this is bigger than just these little incidents. This is big because that particular incident where I was just studying for an organic chemistry exam in my apartment alone, and all of a sudden it just hit me like a ton of bricks. Even though it was totally irrational, there was no reason for me to believe that this would be the case. But I just knew with certainty in my mind that I had hiv, that I was h. HIV positive. No reason that I should suspect that. But it was with such certainty and such a. Such dread, such doom that I collapsed on the ground and just fell into the fetal position, paralyzed and crying in fear. And that had never happened to me before. This was a true panic attack. And I didn't know it was a panic attack. I thought I genuinely had that because we didn't talk about things like this back in the 90s and early 2000s. So I, I, so I went to the doctor, sure enough, found out that I was not HIV positive. And they kind of asked, okay, well, you know, you don't use intravenous drugs and you're not, you know, very promiscuous, so why are you here? But I got the blood test and sure enough, it was fine. And then that immediate sense of relief came over me, and it was just like this flood of, oh, thank God. And then a week later was replaced with something else, you know, and I continued to have these panic attacks.

Interesting, because, you know, you, to me, as an outside observer stringing things together, it sounds like your primal brain, your subconscious brain, your limbic brain going, oh, crap. There's something that I'm really afraid of right now. Whether it is a scheduled fight, whether it is a massive exam, whether it is some other social thing, and it's basically sending you the strong message, okay, this is the thing. Conveniently, forget this. You are now ill and dying from this. And this is what we're going to be consumed by. To protect you from that other thing that you're afraid of. To protect you from whatever the trigger was for the fear or the anxiety.

Yeah. Yeah. And you're absolutely right. Looking back now, knowing what that was, it was that studying for the exam and realizing that I kept failing all of these courses, probably because I was drinking too much and not focusing on studying and having a hard time paying attention and, and really maybe not in my element of, of what I needed to be in. I was, I was trying to become a marine biologist. I was, I was competing with all of these Pre med students graded on a curve. I was just, and I was not putting in the effort to get there. And so I felt out of control. I felt absolutely out of control in college.

Hiv, that would answer everything.

Absolutely. Yeah, it was a solution.

It sounds so bizarre, but that's how, that's how it works.

Yeah, it was certain and it's such a revelation to realize that way later on. But at that moment it was just like, well, now I'm ignoring the real issues for this fake one that I've just invented. And the only thing that works to actually suppress it or to push it down or to numb it is drinking more. And I realized that I can drink myself to the extent that I didn't experience that. And my brain would now, instead of telling me, you've got hiv, it would tell you, oh no, everything's okay, everything's fine. You know, don't worry about anything. Oh yeah, yeah. You want to go out for a walk right now or you want to go, you know, run around and do something stupid? Sure, do it. It'll be fine.

Back in those years for, you know, I grew up in a heavy culture of drinking. Just the environment, a small town. And I used to call myself a weekend alcoholic because we drank so. And it could be like a Thursday, Friday, Saturday kind of thing. It was just the culture in high school and I'm a tiny human, like I'm lucky if I'm 110 pounds. And it got to the point I remember that I needed to buy 12 beer for my night, not for the three, for the one night. Because the tolerance just kept going up for how much we kept drinking and drinking and, and it led to exactly what you're talking about. It led to, you know, I'd be in a vehicle that was rolled or be in a vehicle that was slammed into a hydro pole or, you know, we decided to climb some radio towers and the second time we did that, completely obliterated. We got caught by the police. And then it's a matter of trying to hide the ticket so that the parents didn't find the, you know, like it just. So it's, it's everything you're describing, it's, it's fun. It's the culture in the beginning. It's just the way, you know, we socialize and have a great time and let off some steam and then it evolves and morphs into more problems or more cover ups or more whatever. And then, and I'm sharing this because this isn't something that I've typically shared on this podcast, but it's what you're pointing to in this insidious growth of going from fun to a problem. And the problem for me ended up really getting it kept going through university. However, some major things happened in university that changed some things. However, eventually after university, I became pregnant with my daughter. And I always would say I accidentally quit drinking because suddenly something that was so much bigger than just me and my fears and my pain from my past, because I was numbing. I was just finding a way to make the pain go away. And I felt so, so good to be like the alcohol. I felt so good and if, if that was. If that's what I could do. But then all of a sudden, just that direct knowing that, okay, alcohol is going to cause a problem to my unborn child, then it. I just stopped everything. And then all my priorities shifted and I couldn't afford the feeling of being ill when dealing with a child and work and all of the things and eventually being a single mom now. But to your point, I hadn't. And I want you to continue with your story, but just to wrap up here in this realm, mine stopped because of another human. Not because I had a massive revelation. I had some small revelations, but I hadn't done the true shifting and transformative work to heal what I was dealing with. And so it took just a lot of length and work to keep trying to heal what really originally caused what could have been a major alcohol problem. But yeah, yeah, I share that because it's so. What you're describing is so familiar in so many ways.

Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that because I really think people need to hear that. And that's, that's really why I want to. Wanted to share my stories because it's, it's. There's still a stigma to it, you know, and, and it is something that normally exists in our society that, that quote, unquote, you know, normal people do go through. They have the anxiety, especially now, you know, coming out of things like Covid and all of this anxiety is becoming a bigger issue in our society. We're presented with so much stimulus and, and we have this liquid solution that's presented to us every day that people are picking up and realiz immediately solves that solution, but over time leads to more pain, more, more suffering, which you experienced and I experienced. And, and it's so important to share that. And I'm glad, I'm glad you are because, you know, it. In, in my experience, it, it didn't necessarily.

It.

Well, I, there were a few. Few times where I got sober, and I say got sober, I stopped drinking. And that was really to get the heat off. That was for my wife, you know, for example, like, she would. She would tell me, you know, that she would give me the ultimatum, you know, after. After a night of drinking or something like that, and. Or, you know, when we had our first and second child children, you know, I'd stop drinking for a while and then. But it was never, like you said, for me. And I never really resolved those issues until that experience of doing something that I never thought that I would do. That caused so much shame in me that I ultimately came to have two decisions before me, which was to either end my life or get the help that I needed and give myself completely to it. In the previous experiences with sobriety, I wasn't willing to give myself completely to it because I felt in my. In my mind that I would be. I would be abandoning my family or I'd be abandoning my job, or I would be abandoning these things, these responsibilities in order to do this selfish thing of getting sober. How dare I? You know what I mean?

But there's the brain again.

Yeah, exactly. When in reality, you know, the true. The true thing that I needed was to heal myself before I could be any better for anybody. And so I would make all of these rules for myself to convince myself that I did have a problem. Like you said, weekend warrior. I would tell myself, I'm only going to drink on the weekends. I'm not going to drink during work nights. I'm not going to drink, not drink during workouts. Oh, my gosh. Geez, I could imagine. Or I wouldn't drink before 5pm for example, because, you know, that's what alcoholics do. And the one rule I would never, ever break. I mean, I broke every single one of those all the time. But the one rule I would never break was I'm never going to drink and drive. Never going to drink and drive. Because I hated those people. They were so selfish. How could they do something like that to put other people in danger and other people in harm's way? And then, you know, of course I broke that rule once. It got so bad, and I broke it in a blackout so that I don't even have a memory of it. I got in a DUI accident and ended up coming to in the back of a police car in front of all of my neighbors and all of the people that I knew, just looking on and feeling that shame immediately. And that's when I was sitting in the jail cell that night, realizing that I had absolutely no control. I thought that I had this ability to take care of the anxiety and the fears that I had and the. And this, you know, self hatred that I had by just drinking. And that was a solution. So that was my. My friend, so to speak. But now I'd been even, you know, I'd been abandoned by that. And so I had nothing. So that was where that choice popped up of I have to. I either end my life or I lean into help. And. And thankfully I realized I'm leaning into help and I. That's. And I'm giving myself fully to it. And that's when I started getting into Alcoholics Anonymous.

And. And what a. I mean, 12 step programs. Alcoholics and Anonymous have persevered. They haven't gone away because they work. Because when people follow that program, it works and it provides that level of anonymity and at the same time support that just has people who get you instead of allowing your brain to go into the story of, oh, nobody understands my situation, nobody understands me, and yet there's people all around you that get you and have your back no matter what.

Yeah, yeah. And it's so true. They do work. And what I found is, you know, why does something like that work? You know, because I'd gone through it, you know, a couple of different times before I eventually got it. And the reason it worked for me the last time this time, you know, or it's was because I was willing, I was 100% willing to give myself fully to it, to put it first in my life. Absolutely. First before family, before work, before anything. And I know that if there's people out there listening to this that were in the state I was in, that's going to make them feel very uncomfortable. Because how could I put that before family? How could I put anything before family? Because that's how I be there for my family.

Exactly, exactly. And it's so powerful because what you've just pointed to, we are. Our coaching group works on this. A fair bit is identity. And it's the example of if someone says, yeah, I'm a smoker, but I quit. It's. It's such a simple thing. And yet they're still identifying as a smoker. I am. They're going to start smoking again, they're going to go back to it. And by your. It sounds to me like your ties to family, your ties to work were also interwoven between the alcohol in that somewhere for your belief system, the identif the identity as a family man, the identity as a, you know, worker or whatever, leader, part of that was interwoven with drinking and your identity with drinking. And that's. That's. To me, as this outside onlooker, it seems apparent that by completely shifting the priority then it meant that no longer could that identity as someone who drinks or, you know, I enjoy alcohol or whatever the identity around it was. It could no longer be tied to those other things. You could then find your. You and create who you wanted to meet, be versus succumb to what was insidiously created over time.

Yeah, that's a really, really great observation, because I haven't thought about it that way, but you're absolutely right. There was. There was this tie of, you know, that whole identity was. Was packaged together. The person I was as a family man, the person I was in work and. And the drinker, that was all the same package. But once, you know, sobriety happened and I. I did the work of getting sober. And after that year of sobriety where I would just did that, and that was, you know, every single day, you know, I did have this sense of things are open, you know, that the opportunities are opened up. I and I, and I, for the first time since I'd been playing, you know, music and under Joanne's mentorship, for the first time, I'd had that sense of, wow, I can achieve things that I didn't think were possible in my life. You know, I never thought that I could get sober and actually manage and live with my anxiety without alcohol. And I learned. I learned that through a framework, through the steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. And I don't want to promote Alcoholics Anonymous because they're not. They don't like that sort of thing. But it's just what worked for me. There are other means of sobriety, but.

It'S structure, and it's the kind of structure that worked for you. There's something that you just said, and it was, is it when sobriety happened? And you rephrased just subtly, because it sounds to me like, especially referring back to your musical practice, in that you learned in that practice how to create your next steps, how to create your future. That was something that you learned. And yet there's that moment of, well, sobriety happened. It didn't happen. You created the sobriety, and then Alcoholics Anonymous simply gave you the structure to practice creating your next steps. Creating your next steps. Creating your next steps. It's that almost beautiful acceptance of understanding, oh, okay, so this is the way My brain works. All my brain needs is some structure so that I can create what I really want next versus falling into something that I just thought happened.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because that structure is an element, is an important element of discipline. And discipline, of course, is one of the superpowers of people with an obsessive nature. And so if there is that structure or that framework of. On which people can build, it's a perfect flywheel for them to continue to spin and continue to grow. That's why for me, AA was so effective when I was willing to actually be disciplined with it, was because it's so simple. It's just following a series of steps. There's that 12th step at the top of the ladder, and then you just take each step upward. And then applying that to any framework that we. That we go with, applying it to becoming a virtuoso musician. You know, you have that goal at the top of the staircase, and you just take every step upward. Same with the goal of becoming an ironman triathlete or. Or, you know, a professional bodybuilder, whatever you may want to be. There's that goal at the top of the staircase. The whole simple process is. Is creating a framework by going backward from that top step and saying, these are the steps it's going to take for me to get here. Going all the way backward to that place you're at right now and saying, this is where I start. I'm going to meet myself where I'm at right now and take that next step.

And it's such a logical sequence for your brain to be able to follow without deviating into the loopholes. When there's a really active brain, when you've got a brain that likes to find or do, if there's logical sequence, and it's like, oh, no, this is the past. Not this, not this, not this, just this. Yeah, and. And which, you know, our listeners are typically people who often have a background in sport. They're achievers, they might be in business, and they have an affinity for health and growth. And triathlon is. You know, we've interviewed. I don't know if you know who Michele Graglia is. He's a ultra marathoner who's broken records in, like, the death Race and things like that. And he comes from. He used to be a. He used to be a top model and suffered with addiction, coming from that world of real superficial rewards, if you will. And I asked the question, and this is a question that I want to put to you. Is it for those who Understand triathlon, the volume of training is profound. There are very few sports that have the volumes of training like triathlon does. So ultras triathlons, especially Ironman sports, swimming, rowing, those are super, super high volume sports that if people haven't participated it or been very close to those sports, they don't fully understand the kind of dedication. So when you're speaking about discipline and you're speaking about focus, a sport like Ironman, it is one that caters to that obsessive nature. So where I'm getting to is that do you think that this has simply replaced something that was maybe you perceived as a negative obsessive habit before and now it's more of a positive obsessive habit? Is that not so close that where's the line kind of thing?

Yeah, and that's a great question. And, and I would say that yes, I think I absolutely replaced it. But, but the reason I think that that's a positive for me is because I do have an obsessive personality. And that's not going to go away. It's just not. And the problem that I had when I was drinking was that I was not acknowledging the types of, the type of person that I was, the obsessive person I was when I was playing music. I was feeding that obsessive nature in a positive way and growing from it. So growth was the reward that I could experience. And I realized now that that's the reward that I'm looking for. But instead I was suppressing that obsession or that, that you know, those obsessive thoughts, the anxiety, not letting it, you know, rise up and release by drinking. And so I would obsessively drink instead. That became my outlet to do that. That of course was unhealthy and. But doing something like Ironman, it doesn't have to be Ironman of course. I mean for from where I'm at now, I'm actually I'm I in during COVID I didn't race much at all and focused on other things. But the point is that I do need an obsessive outlet, something that I can obsess on healthfully. And I would even say that, you know, obsession has such a negative connotation. It's like it's, there's a negative association with it. Whereas focus or commitment or dedication are things that could maybe replace it as the positive framing of that. That's really where the anxiety kind of superpower came from.

There's a different way that's been very helpful for some of my clients and for My husband and myself as well is archetype. So instead of having. I don't know if you're familiar with some different archetypes, they'll get used in different realms, whether it's relationships or. But the archetypes I'm speaking of are wood, metal, water, fire, earth. And they come from more of a. More of an Asian background. And we were fortunate enough to learn a little bit more about them and be able to go through some testing to see where our archetypes would be. What's interesting is that we end up both. I'm wood as number one. Woods are hard driving, get it done no matter what. But my number two is metal. Metal is one. Metal would be the person who would be your. Maybe they're really into cars or wine or whatever. You know, that that person your go to friend who's the expert in the cars or the detail or the whatever. They're likely high in metal as that archetype. Whereas your water would be, you know, very go with the flow, very laid back and. And so on. And fire, you know, might be really intense, but then falls flat pretty quickly. And it'll affect how they. How they eat. It'll affect who they can relate to. And you can. You can hear in how I describe this, right?

Yeah.

My husband's number one is metal and his number two is wood and my number one is wood and my number two is metal. But what it's helped us with is instead of feeling like. Instead of feeling like someone's a kitchen Nazi obsessing over the detail of whatever, then we have more of a perspective of, oh, you know, that's his metal trait. And I get that metal trait because I'm very metal in this zone. And then also understanding from a perspective of going, okay, it's not that I'm just that and just pigeonholed. Pigeonholed to that. It's that I can also flow like water. I can also be grounded like earth. I can also burn hot like fire. It's really choosing when to nurture and nourish those and develop those so that I'm not only. Only driven by wood and metal or only allowing that to rule everything in every area of my world. Maybe I choose to be a little more water with my kids or whatever. And. And what it does is the archetypes end up taking us out of the construct or the limitations of language. And so when it comes to obsessive or. Or discipline or focus or whatever meanings we tend to apply it, it really opens up so much more that we can step into with, with understanding, but different type of understanding instead of only language understanding, but a whole different definition.

That's powerful. I like that because it puts a visual to the representation of the actual, actual person. I think it's, it's, it's powerful too because it recognizes that, that people have differences in, of course, in how they. There's, there's not a one size fits all for this kind of stuff. Yeah, for me it was, it is that that Persona of I can be obsessively focused on and sit on a trainer for five hours and ride a bike for that long when not a lot of people want to do that. But you know. Yeah, yeah.

And that's, you know, right there, that's wood. That would be wood all the way. You can persevere, push through, find the way and where other people look at you. Like, how do you even do that? And it's not even that. It's not even that you, it's not that it's necessarily easy for you. That's the thing that other people mistake. They'll think that that's. Oh, that's just easy for you. You were born with discipline or you were born with whatever. It's like, no, I have to work really hard at this too. It's just what I've chosen. And somehow you tend to find reward from that, whereas others can't find reward from that. So it's really, really cool. So bring us to. There's a lot of people who are leaders or in business or bring us to. You achieved some of the things that you really were going after. You were going after qualifying for Worlds in Ironman. That's a big freaking deal for people who don't understand the work that goes into that, especially coming from being a smoker, alcoholic. Like you were not healthy. That's a big, big swing to the other side of the spectrum in terms of. And I'm not saying that here's what I know about working in high performance sport for a couple decades is that the best of the world are not in the healthy zone to get that extreme to be the best in the world. You are on the edge and you are very close to getting sick because you're so close to that edge of high, high performance, typically.

Yeah.

So just I point that out because a lot of people think that the highest performing humans are really, really healthy. And that's not typically the case. There's a different part of the spectrum of health for that. So in that zone, you had to work really hard to achieve. Achieve some really big things. Tell us a little bit about that and also about the transition into the business world, because this is where a lot of people, if they transitioned from addiction into a very high demanding sport, and then they either get injured or they lose that sport, that can be catastrophic. So you've made another transition, and that, to me speaks to the amount of work and transformation that you've done. So I'd like to hear a little bit more about that.

Sure. Yeah, absolutely. So with Ironman in particular, so I mentioned I didn't really come from a sports background or I wasn't very great at it. And when I first saw the Ironman world championship on television, I know I talked about this in the book as well that I saw. You know, I was. I was still in the midst of my anxiety and alcoholism and all those. Those issues. I was, you know, at that point, but I saw that, I was watching that on television and, you know, immediately heard the announcer talking about all of these, like, you know, these. These distances, watching the sweeping views of Hawaii and how beautiful it looked. And I was just like. And at that time, I loved Hawaii. I wanted to live there. And I was looking at him like, wow, this is, you know, I'm definitely watching this. And then I saw people, like, doing these extreme things, like, you know, and the announcer said, you know, swimming 2.4 miles, biking 112 miles and running 26 miles. And I was just thinking to myself, like, wow, how long? How many days does that take people to do? And then, you know, the announcer said it was all in one day. And I was just like, that's insane. But it was, like, intriguing. And I was watching these incredible people finishing this race. You know, John Blaze, who. Who had als, And a year later, a year after this race, he would be in a wheelchair, unable to walk. But this race, he completed it. And he said that he would complete it if he had to roll across the finish line. And he did that to raise awareness for als, you know, sister Madonna Booter, who was probably in her 70s or 80s at that time, you know, racing during, you know, racing as a. As. As, you know, a woman well into old age. And it was just like, wow, that's incredible. Wouldn't it be cool if I could do something like that? And then as quickly as that thought came up, there was this. This point of fear, you know, that. That fear that pops up that could lead in two different directions. The first direction is you could. You could lean to it and say, oh, that's exciting. I Want to try that? I'm going to, you know, I'm going to start or the other one, which most people I think take and I certainly took at that point, which is, ah, you can't do that. That's crazy. Just go back to doing what you're doing now and, you know, live a life of quote, unquote comfort. And, you know, that's what I did at that point. And I said, no, I can't do that. I remember, you know, clearly saying that. And then so fast forward after I had a year of sobriety. And the reason a year of sobriety was important was because throughout the sobriety or throughout my period in aa, I'd always heard from the elders in the group, you know, don't make any life, major life changes in your first year of sobriety. Right. And I, so I, I took that in my obsessive nature took that to mean. No, once you hit a year of sobriety, make a major life change because that's what you need to do.

Of course that's what it means.

Absolutely.

That's what it means for everyone, doesn't it?

Right. So. So yeah, of course I signed up for the Ironman and you know, yeah, in the, in the sake of time, I, you know, I just, I remember that moment of that same fear response popped up and at that point, because I had a more empowered mindset, I had a mindset that was full of sobriety, full of recovery and full of, you know, framework of how to overcome and rise above. I'm sorry, not overcome. I hate saying overcome anxiety because you never get over it. You rise above it. You can rise above it, but it's always there. But having that frame of mind to rise above it, I leaned into the discomfort of the idea of the excitement of doing this new thing. And so that took me down the rabbit hole. I wanted to qualify for the Ironman World Championship because I wanted to go to the place that I saw on that television where I saw those inspiring. That became the top of my staircase. I worked my way backwards and just found that first step and began working forward with a framework of that discipline to get there. And it took me four years and I finally did.

What was your first step?

The first step was. The first step was getting comfortable in.

A speedo again, otherwise known as a banana hammock.

Yep.

And if anyone wondering, that's your hint.

Yeah, the budgie smuggler also. So, yeah, so saved a lot of people a lot of research there. They. But, yeah, so. But really the first step was really I mean, there were quite a few first steps. I'd never ridden a road bike before, so I had to get used to how to do that. And then swimming was the biggest fear. So that. That first, biggest fear that I had, I had to learn to get over, which was anything that there's a significant fear of is going to become overwhelmingly daunting if you look at, like, what you have to do. If I was to put my mindset in that frame of mind that I need to go from where I'm at now to swimming 2.4 miles in the open ocean, I would have. There's no. No way I could count for that. But working myself backwards and say, all right, I've never even swam, really, or in a structured fashion. I've never swam 25 yards in a pool. Let me just swim from one side of the pool to the other. That was my first step in Ironman training, having the faith that I could get to that. That finish line a year later with the understanding and the grounding in reality of where I was right now and knowing that next step. Those are the two most important factors of believing in yourself is believing with faith that you can achieve that dream that is at the top of the staircase, but being grounded in the reality of where you're at right now.

Yeah, that's a powerful example of now and future. Being here now being in the present, and deciding your future. And then you talked about living with the anxiety. And I was with a client literally, earlier today, and we were discussing distinguishing between anxiety. Is this. Is this imagination about the future from a foundation of fear, Whereas it's such a close imagine. It's just future imagination in a foundation of fear. That's anxiety. But what's so close to it? Right next to it, right next door is anticipation, which is, again, imagination. Your future with a foundation of excitement instead of fear. And they're like best buddies. It's like the two sides of the imagination future hand. They're right there.

Absolutely. Yeah. And that's where anxiety can be your best friend. If you can change that relationship or you can reframe that relationship. Anxiety doesn't have to be comfortable, but friendships don't have to be comfortable. You know, they don't. They don't. But. But it exists there for a reason. The question is, is it rational or irrational? And chances are, if you're future tripping, if you're. If you're going way off into the future, if you're spending too much time there, it's going to be irrational. But if you're grounding yourself in the present moment of where you're at right now with faith that you can get there later, then that is productive. And that anticipation, too, is powerful because you have that carrot on the stick of what's going to come with the knowledge that all I have to do is put myself just 5% beyond my comfort zone. And that's going to help me grow beyond this. It's going to help me rise above the negative aspects of anxiety and really use the anxiety as a friend to get me to where I want to be.

It's so cool because people, people typically decide to make change in increments of 30, 50, 100%. And what really works for the brain is increments of 1, 3 and 5%. You know, it's a step. It's not, you know, we're not trying to go three stories. We're trying to go a step, everybody. So that's really powerful how you frame that. I love it. And so you, you made a lot of steps in that and moved through to actually qualify. How did that feel?

It felt, it felt really. I mean, the qualifying process was really, I mean, it was, it was a life changing experience. I mean, just the idea of getting there, I mean, it was full of emotion. I remember right before the race started, you know, I was, I was, you know, full of anxiety. I was full of fear of what was to come. On race day, I was being filmed for a show that was chronicling my, my attempt to qualify. And, you know, I was afraid, I was still afraid of, of that, that swim, still afraid of jumping into the water and getting started. Still afraid of that failure that I might experience. But the process of qualifying, you know, just, just executing one step at a time. Once I got into that transition area, it was just all right, my next step is filling up my bike tires. That's all I have to do right now. That's all I can control, is just filling up the bike tire. Now what's the next step? I gotta walk down to the swim area. That's all, that's all I can control. You know, that, that, it just really, really narrow it down that much to the point where that, you know, fast forward to the end of the race where I was running down that finisher. Shoot. And I see my daughter at the finish line holding a medal. You know, she was 8, 7 or 8 years old at the time and, or maybe 9 or 10, sorry, holding the metal and going to put, put it around my neck in front of all the world to See in the cameras to see and everything. And yeah, it was a, it was a life changing experience. Just for the fact that, you know, qualifying was, was great. You know, the idea that I was, I was going to go to the Ironman World Championship, that's great. But just at that moment, realizing where I was, that everything that I was looking at beyond that finish line would have been lost in an instant if, you know, within a matter of inches or if I didn't make the decisions to change or if I made a different choice in that jail cell. And that's really the first thing I want to convey to people that are feeling that sense of hopelessness. I know that feeling of that at that moment, I didn't think that there was going to be any goodness that was going to come in my life after that point, that everything was going to be bad. But that in that sense of hopelessness, no matter what it is, that there's always miracles that are waiting beyond it. If you make the right choice to go on to take the next step.

It'S so powerful because it's almost like you're seeing the image and living out the image of the potential of the man that you could become versus, you know, you got to meet the man that you could become versus the path you were on, which would be a version of the man who didn't come close to the potential that you could have had. So it's amazing to have that image of it even exceeded what you thought was the man that you could become.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. There was no thought in my mind of that person. You know, when I was drinking or getting, getting sober. You know, in that, in that process it was just, it came, it came to be that, you know, we can be open minded to the things that come and we have this, we were touching on this earlier. That, that, that, that, that small little bubble of who I was when I was drinking, that, that, that resonated around, you know, what I was in the family, what I was as an alcoholic and what I was at work, that small little bubble because I went down the path of healing. It opened up into these things that I would have never expected. And now in this world, it's just like, what's next? You know, you can think of like what is next? And you know, right now, you know, running, running the family business, it's an exciting venture. It's an opportunity to lead. It's an opportunity to help others build careers, which is exciting. Or you know, coaching other people in terms of performance, of rising above anxiety and reaching their true potential or just you know, maybe going after like something new, like going after a black belt or traveling in a van, doing whatever, it just opens up the world.

See this is the, what you're describing is the critical difference between somebody who is using. Another thing is really continuing the using in order to not feel what you're scared of feeling. Instead you've transformed in order to be able to handle and feel what you're uncomfortable with and direct it. And that's why you've got everything available to you instead of only one or two choices. Only alcohol or triathlon, only alcohol or death, only fear or alcohol. And that's what our brain likes to do, is give us one or two choices. And instead, because you've been able to transform and develop the skill of harnessing the energy, being okay with it, allowing it, directing it, now you're seeing your future as okay, what do I get to experience next in my growth journey, in my life journey, in my connection with others journey, Whatever, whatever journey you happen to be on. Really, really powerful. So I want to, we're a bit over time here because this has been just a. So fascinating and powerful and I think so useful for people to hear and embrace and just learn from is there. When you think of, you think of a version of yourself and maybe whatever time you felt you would have needed to hear something like this, but you think of a past version of yourself. Maybe it's as a kid, maybe it's in high school, maybe it's in university. What would the now you want to deliver as a message to that you that might have needed to hear something? What would that message be?

Yeah, I suppose I would go back to my 18 year old self right before college started. And this is obviously, I'll preface by saying this is a tough one because the negative experiences that I've gone through certainly shaped me and I don't know that I would want to necessarily trade them in, but I guess if I could empower myself without giving away too much.

Yeah, yeah, it's happening for you, not to you, buddy.

Yeah, right. I would just say that you don't have to be anything to anybody. You can, you know, you don't have to live within what other people are trying to define for you. And your perception of, of yourself and how you're represented towards others isn't necessarily the reality.

That'S very powerful, especially pointing to your perception not necessarily being your reality because we, that's how we live. We live feeling like, well, this is the way it is. This is fact. Well, no, it's kind of your thought or kind of a meaning that you've made out of this situation.

Yeah.

And it's. And. And then also just the, you know, the power of our loved ones that other people perceive us as or expect us to be. And so we live into that instead of living into or exploring what we could be or live into. So really, really powerful. Is there anything as kind of a fun last. Last bit of info? Any favorite music or foods or what are some of the key fun things that really got you through, maybe tough training or whatever it is that landed for you?

Yeah, I have a lot of guilty pleasures with regard to music. My enjoyment runs the gambit there. But specifically when I'm working out, I'll admit I enjoy some Bon Jovi.

Yeah. It's my life, baby.

Yeah, that's right.

Slippery when wet. I. That I was. You know, I was an 80s kid and that album. Huh?

Yeah.

Bring it back. Okay. I'm just. In honor of you, I'm going to listen to Bon Jovi all. All week long.

Absolutely. Watch your performance improve dramatically. I guarantee it.

Exactly. In honor of Jon Bon Jov. Well, I so appreciate this conversation. It's just been phenomenal. I really appreciate your authenticity and your openness to share some of the tough things and your journey through it. And I really acknowledge you for being so open to share it because that's what. That's what I think will help other people and what they need to hear in order to understand they're not alone and that they can. They can grow through whatever they're going through right now.

Absolutely. Well, I'm so. I'm so grateful that you had me on. This is so awesome. Such a pleasure. Thanks so much.

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