Dr. Adrienne Leslie-Toogood - Sport Psychologist

This is episode 148 of the Empowered Team Podcast. Welcome to the Empowered Team Podcast where we explore how to optimize your performance in career, sport and life. And now your host, vitality and peak.

Performance coach, Kari Schneider.

Hello, Leslie, how are you?

I'm doing great. How are you doing, Kari?

Good, thank you. Welcome to the Empowered Team Podcast and we're thrilled to have you with us. You've got such extensive experience working with so many athletes as well as businesses in terms of sports psychology and also just psychology in general to create that winning mindset and have people really be able to manage themselves in a way to create performance. And we are all about creating optimal performance. So we are really excited to have you here with us and have you share some of the things that people really want to know about in order to create the best for themselves and what they do. So in getting us started, just for curiosity for other people, how did you get into what you do? You are a psychologist, a licensed psychologist. You work with the Canadian Sport Institute. You also do consulting as well. How did you get involved in that? What drew you to getting into the mind and gearing it towards sport?

Yeah, I'm not even really sure. I think life's a journey, you know. And it's interesting, when I was doing my pre doc internship, there was an intern I was with named John Alvin and he did a. His whole research was on the area of planned happenstance, which is this idea of career planning. When you talk to someone, you say, how did you end up doing this? And people are like, well, I'm not sure. This happened and that happened and this happened. And they have a whole theory of career planning around it. So in some ways it's planned happenstance. But for, for sure, when I reflect back on my life, I've always, you know, I've always been involved in sport and sport played a huge role in my life. And it was something that was very stable in my life. I came from a home that had a lot of dysfunction and not a lot of support. And I think that sport became my community without really realizing it. And, you know, it's the reason I went to university. And so I've always loved sport. I then went on to become a psychologist and Interesting planned happenstance again. I tore my ACL when I was playing basketball in my fourth year. I was actually playing summer street ball and slipped, you know, in the three on three tournament. And so I was injured and I was a good student. So people said, well, you should go to graduate school. I Was thinking of continuing to play after university, but I didn't have that opportunity at the time. And so I was like, okay, I'll go to graduate school. And, you know, so I went that way, not really knowing. And interestingly, as I started to study and become a psychologist, I tried to legitimize myself by leaving sport, by being a real psychologist. But I kept on getting pulled back into sport. I did my pre doc internship at Kansas State University, and when I was interviewing there, they were asking me questions about the sport part of my life. And I kept saying, oh, don't worry about that part. Like, I have the real deal. You don't have to worry. And they said, but we're interested in it. So I'm like, oh, my. Okay. So I'm like, well, in that case. And I am. I'm very passionate about just performing and helping people live their best life, I think. And I just approach it in a very different way. I think you have to be physically well and mentally well to be the best version of yourself to handle the ups and downs of becoming great. And I've been very involved in the Canadian sports system. There's recently a mental health strategy we developed for high performance sport in our country. It's been things I've been talking about for years behind the scenes. I'm so proud of Canada for starting to develop resources for that and recognizing that. And then on the other end of it, I think that there was one time Kari's like, this is a long answer.

No, I love it.

I love it. Another time where I was doing a. I was at a conference because I'm also a bit of a professional development junkie. I'm like, wow, I can learn something from everyone and everything, and I'm always learning. And I was at a conference for people who had experienced multiple forms of trauma. And a lot of people kind of know the way, you know, the area I work in. And this was back in the day where you had in person conferences and you even had, like, you know, buffet lines. So I was in the buffet line getting my food, and someone behind me sort of looked and they're like, what are you doing here? Because I think people had sort of this vision of people who experienced a lot of trauma in their life. And I looked at her and I said, oh. I'm like, if you want trauma, I'm like, come to high performance sport because it's built on trauma. There's way more people that are unhappy at the Olympics. And I love the idea of emotional injury. There's so many Olympians that are emotionally injured, you know, from their experience there. And if you want to be, you know, great, you sign up for, you know, being broken. You know, that's just part of it along the way. And, you know, just like with, I use a lot of physical metaphor for things because I find the emotional part is a bit harder to wrap our head around and to give ourselves the opportunity to really embrace. And, you know, we think about it with, we spend a lot of time trying to keep our body well to do sport, and we roll out, we have a lot of prehab routines going on and what do we do to stay emotionally well? You know, not a lot of things. We don't think about that. And sometimes we push too far physically and we get injured and then we have to do athletic therapy to become well. And it's the same in sport, right? Sometimes it's just too much and there's other things affecting us and, you know, we need to do other things to stay well. So again, I'm just always just trying to understand the human being that's in front of me, understand how they're wired from the perspective of their humanness, but also from their unique life experience and help them to be the best version of themselves in a very, you know, caring and compassionate way and helping them to be non judgmental, which is huge about their, their mental and emotional well being. There are so many myths about this whole emotional strength thing, you know, and it really comes from being curious and compassionate and kind and honoring how you're wired so that it doesn't get in the way of you doing anything that you want. You know, the way humans are made doesn't always fit with high performance. And so we have to like, lean into fear and things that aren't natural for us, but we can do when we equip ourselves to do it. So I don't know, I just. It's such a privilege to, you know, to be invited into people's journey and to do whatever I can to help keep them well along the way, to help them be able to perform and step up when they want to the most. And, you know, it's always a lot busier for me when things don't go well. So right now at the Olympics, it's much busier when things don't go well. You know, I've been with teams on the road when it's going well, and I watch a lot of Netflix and I've been on the road when things aren't going well, and I don't sleep at night. So it just really depends because that's when the real work happens. So, yeah, so I think I just kept on getting brought back into sport, and I do love sport. I love being on the sidelines, behind the scenes, just watching things happen and just helping people be resilient, you know, by helping them understand themselves a little bit better.

So you've pointed to a whole bunch of things that really prompt a ton of questions for me. You know, you started with this planned happenstance in terms of the journey of your life, but at the same time, you pointed to some of the trauma that you've experienced. So I'm curious about the trauma you've experienced. Do you think that, A, did that kind of prompt you to go down some of the paths that you went down? And B, do you. Do you feel that that experience that you've had in your life, some of the dysfunction, perhaps trauma. Do you feel like some of that experience in your life helps you as the professional you are today, for. For the people that you're working with?

It's interesting, and I appreciate the question, and I think I'll approach it in this way. But again, just like it prompts many different possibilities for responding to that question. And so I'll start with this way of responding to it. I do think that it shaped me in a lot of ways. I think that when you are in situations like that, you develop, I think, what I call superpowers, because that's the best way to think about it. But I can handle chaos, like if I'm at an Olympic Games or if I'm on the sidelines and there's a lot of stuff going on and there's a ton of pressure. I know how to stay grounded and stay focused because I had to do that growing up. And so I just know how to. I can handle it. I don't get discouraged by it. I also have always been, because. And again, these are things that. And I think that's the thing when people are in. We're shaped by the experiences that surround us, and we don't know it at the time. Right. And so this is just reflecting back, thinking about it at the time. You're just kind of doing the best you can. I think the other thing that that really is helpful is that I was always really responsible for myself. I was responsible for taking care of what I needed to take care of. I was responsible for my own happiness. I was responsible for getting myself there. And so I think that I really take a lot of ownership for my Life because I had to. And as well, the other part, too, in a very different way, a very different way of responding to the question is that I have seen people, you know, I've seen people incredibly broken and really bipolar disorder when I grew up, and it wasn't diagnosed until I was in grade 12. And that's a tough disease if you don't have the right treatment for it. You know, there's a lot of ups and downs. There's a lot of if you don't have a secure job, there's a lot of financial implications. There's a lot of the basic maslow things that aren't happening, you know. And so, you know, I saw real brokenness, and I also saw real strength in that because, um, even in his darkest moments, there was still good to him. And I think that I always see the good in people, you know, and I always see the possibility and potential in people. And I don't get scared by their brokenness because I'm able to sit with them in it. And I know that they're more than that. They're more than that, that part of themselves. And. Yeah, so I think there's a lot that. A lot of strength. I almost learned, you know, learned from it. And I guess in the other thing, too, I'm also, you know, I know you're interested in wellness, and I'm actually, you know, this idea of the mental health continuum from the Canadian Mental Health association, you know, I've modified and I have sort of a sport version of that. And I'm just really, you know, sometimes when we talk about mental health, it's confusing what is it? And I see the implications if you don't pay attention to it, you know, and so I'm really proactive about my own wellness and the wellness of everyone around me, because I know what. I know what it looks like when you can't do the responsibilities, when you can't take care of yourself. And that's not a path that I want to live. That's not something I want my children to experience, you know, and so I'm very, very thoughtful about that and very purposeful and intentional about, you know, taking care of myself so I can take care of other people around me. And I, you know, it's. So, for me, mental health is demystified because I've spent a lot of time living with it. And then I guess the last part, I would say, is that I really. Anyone who sits in front of me, I know that I don't know everything that's happening in their life. And I know that, you know, there's a lot of things that can be happening in someone's life, and they may or may not share that with you, but you have to make sure to take that into consideration as you care for the human being that's in front of you. And it's an honor and a privilege when they do share that with you. And it's important that you. That you handle that with the. With the courtesy it deserves. So I guess, you know, when I think about it a little bit, in some ways you think, ah, no, not at all. But then in other ways, I do think I was. I was shaped by it in many ways. And I've always been incredibly independent. I've. Yeah, I lived on my own since, you know, my undergraduate. I got a PhD. I had no funding from anyone. I figured it out. Like, I've just always figured it out because I had to, you know. And so I think that that's, you know, that's sort of the reality of my situation too, is that if you want to do it, you figure out a way to do it, because there's no one that's going to do it for you, necessarily. And in some ways, it's very sad. I feel that way, but it's my reality. Right. And I think we all have our realities that we have to work from.

Yeah. It's interesting. I can relate on a lot of levels in terms of the responsibility and the ownership and the figuring it out on your own and having to do that, because it wasn't necessarily. You weren't. I wasn't personally supported along the way, perhaps. So it was. You rely on yourself more and more. And in that. I had a client, a number. I still work with this client, but a number of years ago, they said this line to me that I've used as an example in programs. And it's this line that was a thought and it was, capable people are punished. And this client was really convinced of this because of the life they'd lived. And it struck me because when I first heard this person say it, I thought, oh. And I thought of my life in that context, and I thought, whoa. And at the same time, thought of the gravity of believing that particular thought and what it brings to believe that particular thought. So I really respect what you're saying about the responsibility that you've had and the ownership that you have over your own life. In a way, with how you're articulating it, it really sounds like it's a way that you're grateful for it because not a lot of people have that at this point. There's a lot of looking around going, well, why am I this way? Is it because of you or you or you or this or that? And then it prolongs the ability for them to take control over their own lives when it's always about something else or someone else or looking for the result from someone else. I'm curious as well about when you first were going into psychology by itself, without sport as that descriptor or part of your psychology practice. Why do you think that you looked to have it alone, without sport, for it to be legitimate?

What?

Legitimate without sport? I'm just curious about that.

I think, because. Because I was so passionate about sport and it didn't feel like I was doing any work, I think, you know, and I sort of had this misconception about what life should be, I guess. Like, you're supposed to work hard, you know, and it's just fun. It's just fun and I love it and it's so great. So I'm like, well, that can't be work. I need to work. Actually, to be honest, I have a funny story about that was so classic. Throughout my grad school, I always did a good job of having balance in my life when a lot of students don't. It was sort of a competition. Whose life was hardest.

Yeah.

And so I literally didn't even share anything. I'm like. Because I've also always had the philosophy that our lives are short and we never know how much good time we're going to have, you know. And again, that comes from someone who crashes all the time. You know, you're like, well, I gotta enjoy it now. But, you know. And so I just always knew that I didn't, like, want to, like, write off 10 years of my life of graduate school and not enjoy it. I'm like, I want to enjoy it along the way. And that was incredibly important to me. But then for some reason, after I graduated from graduate school, I had my first job and I was a tenure track faculty member. And I thought, okay, I've had a lot of fun and now I have to be serious, so I've got to cut all this out of my life and I have to really focus. And then my first intern that came in, her name was Carolyn and she's from the States, interestingly, But I remember she was very much an artist and she had all these other interests. So she sat down for her first day of supervision. I was explaining to her my My insights in my life and how, you know, you know, I'm this new faculty member. So now I'm going to be really serious, and I'm going to cut all this stuff out, and I'm going to just, you know, do my job, and it's going to be great. And I remember Carolyn looked at me and she's like, oh, well, why would you do that? She goes, it sounds like it worked out pretty good before. Like, why would you cut all that? So anyway, she leaves my office, and I'm like, I don't know. Why would I do that? What was I thinking? New role. Yeah. New job. I know. I thought, I gotta be a real professional now, you know, But I was like, why would I do that? Come on, Adrian. So, yeah, it's that whole, like, you know, the teach the teacher situation where, you know, I'm very open to learning because there's a lot I need to learn. So I was like, right from the beginning, I learned something from that student. But, yeah, no, I agree. I think it was really just that I'm like, life can't possibly be this good, you know, maybe I'll just. I've got to be serious about it, you know, And. And that's actually been one of the things that's really interesting because I'm. I do love professional development. I'm not narrowly a sports psych person at all. I actually grab from so many different things. And during COVID you know, I, you know, I subscribed to the Harvard Business Review, and I, you know, I'm looking at all sorts of things in other contexts. I love some of Amy Anderson. She does some psychological safety things, and I think about that, about the culture of sport and how we create safe spaces or athletes make themselves vulnerable. And so I'm. I'm. I often take from other places, and I'm always thinking of it through the lens of performance, and that's just kind of the way. I'm not even sure. That's just sort of the way I'm wired and interested in. I guess I want everyone to really enjoy their lives and enjoy the whole story, because there's going to be so many parts of it. And I think that's really. That's really essential.

It sounds too like, you know, not. Not just settling for what's in front of you, actually looking beyond to see what's possible. Looking beyond to see what the individual is capable of or what the potential might be as well, in this. So in the birth of this particular podcast, the Empowered Athlete Podcast, it was originally we, we rebranded into the Empowered Team podcast. And originally when we started it, it was all around the athlete identity and really what athletes have to or have had to experience or overcome throughout their athletic journey and what that looks like for them, them sharing their stories. Because what we found was that so many athletes would be going through really challenging things. They may not have a sports psych with their team and they may not share with anyone around them because they may believe that it would compromise their position on a team, their position with a coach, whatever it might be. And so they would go through a whole bunch of things without actually processing it or sharing it or. So we started the podcast in order for people to share their stories that they've gone through so that other coaches, other athletes, other parents, other people could hear, oh, they've gone through that. I never would have guessed that they went through that and hear how they overcame it. And we morphed this into really applying to anyone who is looking for their next best, their next potential. Because our audience tends to be high performance athletes and achievers in business and life. So people who want to keep growing in some form or another, and they've got this affinity for performance and health. So in that context, in seeing that the athletes, the business people, the achievers, they tend to want to achieve the thing and feel happy, look for their own self efficacy out of whatever the accomplishment is. And we've seen so many times how that ends up being this desolate area where they're like, well, wait, I won the Olympic gold. Why is life not the way I thought it would be once I won the Olympic gold or I didn't make it to the Olympics, or I did make it to the Olympics or whatever it is, and what happens at that point because they believed that that accomplishment or lack thereof would mean certain things. What do you find with all the work that you do with athletes and consulting for businesses in that achiever mentality of I'll be happy, when I'll be happy if those types of things. How do you approach that or what are some of your findings with that kind of mentality? Because that's a lot of who we work with, with the empowered are those who are achievers, those who are looking for the next personal best or next thing, but often thinking that that's going to add to their own certain feelings, experience or worth even in their lives.

Yeah, well, I think that you framed a question in a way that makes a lot of sense. And I think it's a very dangerous game and a very Slippery slope. And, you know. And you know, I'll use a golf example for that, right? So if I have a shot I don't like on the golf course, and I. I want to make up for it for the next shot. Well, if you don't have a good tee shot, then you're probably done for the round, right? You need to get yourself together and back to who you need to be, and then you need to go take your next golf shot. And I guess the beginning part, I was struck by when you were talking about kind of challenges people experience in that, and I was actually thinking, I like to be a very random, as you may or may not remember, but I love the book the Velveteen Rabbit and this whole process of becoming. And I think that one of the things I try to work with all my performers on is this idea of taking that step back and recognizing that every experience you have, whether we label it as good or bad, sometimes, but every experience you have is part of you growing into the person that you're meant to become. And the Velveteen Rabbit is about this idea of becoming real. And I think life is this journey of real and realizing what your potential is. And I think that's a really helpful way to do it. I think another way that I would respond to what you said is I'm, you know, I'm really into values right now, and there are so many different ways of doing it. But I think it's so important to understand, you know, it doesn't matter what you accomplished if you didn't do it your way, and if you didn't do in a way that's aligned with your values. And every accomplishment you have should come out of that values, and it should come out of what you want your legacy to be while you're. While you're here and on yourself and the people around you. And so with a lot of athletes, I. I use an online value saying, get them to identify what their values are. And we talk about that. We're like, okay, so how are you going to realize this through your sport? How are you going to live your values to your sport? And as well, a lot of what I do, I'm trying to keep people resilient so they can continue to strive and achieve. And it's such a risk if you really want to push your potential and try and be the best version of yourself. And so I do find that I am also very grounded in this idea of psychological resilience. And with that, if you read the books and that they're sort of the parts of it. And some of them are very intuitive and they make sense, but they're still harder to do. But quite honestly, one is control and focusing on the parts that you can control. And I think that this pandemic gave us a great opportunity to practice that skill. I think that another one is embracing the opportunity to grow and become better. And so when there's a challenge or something you face, you don't get the outcome you want. I think it's really important to embrace those opportunities to learn and grow. It's really important the values part, to know your why and keep coming back to that because it allows you to, to be very much in that way. And then the last one is, you know, you can't do it by yourself, so making sure you get support from other people. And so for myself, if I saw someone who was playing that very slippery slope, dangerous game, I think I'd spend a lot of time trying to figure out who they were and what their values were. And through their actions in life, like how they want to manifest those values and the achievements, at the end of the day, they're going to come and go and you're going to win some days and you're going to win, not win other days because there's going to be a ton you can't control around that. If you go in there for a business deal, well, you know what you just might have, you know, you just might be the wrong style for the person or they might be looking at something else in their industry right now. And should you beat yourself down because you didn't get the contract? Well, you could choose to if you want, but maybe the better thing to do is to learn and grow from it and get better and look for places that are a good fit for you. And I just think that it puts so much pressure. So the other part that I see is that when you play that game, you're never really living at the edge of what the possibility is in your performance because you're always protecting something. And it's really important to find, you know, a way to allow yourself to go all in. Winnie Horn Miller was in town and it was one of the last talks I went to, probably before, you know, you can't really do anything like that anymore. But I brought a graduate student with me and I wasn't really sure what it was going to be about. And it was quite long. It was sort of like she was just, it was just sort of her story and it was quite long. And so I think at the End I was like, oh my gosh, I hope he liked it because it was like three hours of his time, you know. So on the way out of the building I said, so what was your takeaway? You know, I was just trying to figure out kind of what he got out of it. And he said, well, I like the part at the end. And she told a story at the end and it was around, I believe his name was Willie Mays, but he's an athlete from the United States of America and he won an Olympic distance race. And he's the first American in the history to win a distance race. And it's known as one of the best races in history. And so I did watch it after I got home because I'm like, oh. And it's this crazy finish where, you know, he comes from nowhere and risks everything to kind of win the race and like, sort of like, can't go anymore at the end, sort of dies at the end. And so when he was talking to him, I guess, and asking him like, wow, how did you have the courage to do that? Really? Like you could have finished third. You know, you basically sacrificed everything. It was either you were going to win or you were done. Like, why did you do that? Why didn't you just go for the third? You know? And he said, well, he goes, here's the way I see it. He goes, most of the athletes I was racing against, they invested about 90% of who they were into there, you know, but they saved 10% because if they crashed, they wanted to be able to build themselves up and put themselves together again, you know. And he said, for me, I was able to go 100% in because, you know, I had a community that supported me and I knew, like, I knew that I'd be okay if I completely crashed and burned, you know. And I think that's such a powerful concept. So when we have too much on the line to get that like there's too much of our identity invested in it. If there's, you know, going to be too hard on ourselves and beat ourselves down for weeks if it doesn't go well, we're always going to hold that 10% back. But how do we create a relationship with ourselves and the people around us so that our teams and ourselves can go 100% in? Because they know they can and they know it's safe to do so. And so his comment was, he really liked that and he was wondering how do we play that role in our athletes lives? Like, how do we become part of that, part of those people that they know they can go all in for. And it's something I think a little bit right now because the Olympics are on and it's such a tricky thing when there's so many people that invest in your performance and the best athletes are the ones who are diligent in their training. But then how do you help them to let go and care less? And you know that about letting people down so that they can go 100% in. So how do you become that person who they know will pick that you'll pick them up as opposed to that person that adds pressure. And most, the most important person on that team is yourself. And you know, Kristin Neff talks a lot about self compassion theory and there's, I love emotional agility with Susan David. There's so many different theories about that that I think are so powerful. And so when I'm working with my athletes, that's where I spend a lot of my time is on that stuff. And if we got that stuff sorted out, then we can do some imagery and some self talk and things like that. But we have to get that core identity stuff sorted out so that they know who they are and they know that that's not all on the line when they step to the starting line.

That's fantastic. It's. I mean, it's interesting because.

The.

One of the things I would see with teams just being with them so much as a strength coach day in and day out or prior to that as an athletic therapist, just there was this guard that was let down once you're with them all the time that they wouldn't. Yeah, they wouldn't share otherwise if it hadn't been hours and hours and trust and all the things that were built up along the way. But that's when you realize by certain things that people say it might be an offhanded comment like, you know, unrelated to sport, I'm the type of person who can't get up early. I'm not a morning person. You know, that seems like such an innocent thing to say. But then when it comes down to it, that's what a person believes about themselves. And then whatever it is for sport, they may not even realize what they believe about themselves. And then that's driving the show for whatever's going on in their lives, for sport, for personal lives, for whatever is happening there. It can be this kind of underlying thing. Paul shared this story a couple times. We were, we were coaching a group, we were doing a program and we were talking about a little bit about identity and what people believe about themselves when it comes to training, when it comes to whatever other practices that they're doing in terms of their best performance. And he never identified himself as a runner because he always identified himself as a volleyball player. And yet he's running one day because I'm making our program all the time and programs, and he's running, and I have him on an interval run, and he's running for a minute on, and then he's got 30 seconds rest. He's doing this interval, and a coach is cycling by him, sees who it is this person was involved in the community, and says to him, hey, you know, you're. Are you a runner now? He's like, no, no. And then he literally cut the conversation off because he couldn't miss the next interval and then kept running. And then he says he's running. He's thinking, wait a second. I run, you know, three times a week, two to three times a week. I might register for a race every couple years or do something like that. And yet my brain tells me that I'm not a runner. And if I looked at someone else and saw them running that frequently or doing intervals or doing some hills or doing a long run or registering for a race, I would think of them as a runner. But he realized for himself that he had this block somewhere along the way, that he just. He wasn't a runner because in his mind it was something completely different. So it's so interesting to me to hear, you know, that athlete identity, how getting that sorted out before really working on other things when you're working with an athlete, how you see when and what to work on based on what their experience is. And I love just that, working on, working through the values so that they can identify what. What their why is, what. What's driving them forward. Those values are so key for. For the clients that I work with and the athletes that I work with, we've done some values exercises as well for a number of years. But because some of those people change so much, I've found it useful to ask them to revisit the values every six months to a year as they evolve in some form. Do you have a timeline that you recommend that. That you suggest to revisit on doing a values exercise for people?

Yeah, no, I think there's a lot of variability with it, and it depends kind of how you use it. And there's so many different ways of getting to it as well. Another activity that I saw in, I think it was a Joshua metcalfe book just to make sure to give credit where it was due. But he talked about the idea of doing a scorecard for life. And if you live more moments this way, you're going to have a life and it doesn't matter if you win or not, you're going to feel meaningful. And so his thing is identify, you know, three to five people in your life that you think are amazing. You know, okay, great. Write down their names. Okay, now write down their characteristics or their attributes that you really admire in those people. Okay, great. Now you've just developed your scorecard. Those are things that you aspire to be like and that are really important to you. And, you know, two or three times a day, just check back on it. And it's interesting. With values, I think that our core values stay the same, but I think that our understanding of what those core values might change and evolve as we grow as people. And so I think that it's more the opportunity to continue to check in with where. Where we are as people and. And where we value it. And for me, it's like the action part of it. I found a lot of value in where. And to be honest, it was during COVID because again, I'm a PD junkie and I was listening to. I don't even know. I accidentally signed up for this. Way more in your area. The NBA Strength and Conditioning association had like this, you know, they had their PD and it was like, free, but I didn't even really know what it stood for. I was like, oh, okay, that sounds cool. Sign up. And it ended up being, yeah, they're all the strength coaches, right, from the NBA. So I was sitting there listening and one of their strength coaches or. But then they also mental performance people talk to educate the strength coaches. And so I those, you know, I was like, okay, I want to sit on this session. And one of the gentlemen was talking about how when he did his post game debriefs, it was from this values perspective. So he had his athletes on his team identify what their core values were. And then after the game, they would debrief the game from the context of did you live your core values in that game? If so, how? If so not why? And it was this really powerful way to think about the debrief, right? It wasn't about, you know, how was your shot? How was this? It was like, how did you live as a human being through this? Because there was this recognition that this is a huge part of your life and this is about you living your values in this context, and that's where I took it, and I started to use it in that way with, you know, with other athletes. Like, if you've got, you know, professional golfers, you know, where you're like, okay, creativity is one of your core values. Well, how do you live that? Well, you know what? Before I take a make a short game shot, I want to be able to see the ball come from all different. I want to see the shape of the shot. You know, I want to see that in my head. That's creativity. That's important for me. And, you know, it's just a really interesting exercise. So I think that. And again, I think that I'm not. It has to be this much. It's more in relationship with a person, you know, creating an environment where they can let me know when it's time to revisit them or through our relationship together, we can figure that out and kind of go back and revisit it. But I've definitely found a lot of power in it. And I live in the Prairies, so I often, you know, use that analogy of the. The lone tree and the Perry's. You're driving down the highway and there's this one tree. You're like, what? And how did you get there? Yeah, yeah, how did you get there? What are you still doing? You know, it doesn't matter what storms, it always stays upright because it's. It's. It's so rooted, right? And that's the way I think that kind of knowing who we are, we have to decouple, like, who we are from what we do. We have to decouple how we think and how we feel from what our actions are. You know, when we do that, there's a lot of power in that. And so I think that, you know, always just trying to help people tease that. That stuff apart and keep them separate.

It's interesting how you describe that, because with the strength coaches or the going through whatever the game was, instead of looking at it tactically or strategically looking at it from the core values, which goes back to what you originally talked about, which was probably aligned with your core values, which was humanness going into, emphasizing the humanness and the best version of people, so that it seems to bring it back to the humanness, because it's the human that's doing the golf, it's the human that's doing the basketball, the whatever it is. So it's not the. You're not a machine on the court. So it's really neat to see that come around and how that happens, that scorecard for life. Who was the author, you said? Metcalfe?

Yeah, I think Joshua Metcalf. His latest book is Win in the Dark, which I've actually used with a lot of athletes. I thought it was a great metaphor for the reality of what they were doing right now as they were literally in their basements training, you know, getting ready for the Olympics. But he's written a number of different. Like, Pound of Stone. He has a lot of different books. They're very much stories. They're like fables where he'll. He'll come up with a. It's partly fictional, partly based on, like, experiences he's had. And it reads very easily, but it's like a fable where you can take lessons out of it as you read it. So it's great for conversation for athletes and coaches. With some of my national teams, we like when in the dark. We read with a couple of my national teams this past year, and it's a really easy read. Chapters are, like two or three pages, so very attractive. And yet there'll be, like, a couple, really.

You started with the Velveteen Rabbit. I'm hearing a theme here.

Oh, that's true. Yes. Yeah. And I love the Velveteen Rabbit, you know, and that the Skin Horse is like. You know, the Rabbit is like. And I don't know. Have you heard of the Velveteen Rabbit? Do you know what it's about?

I have, but I'm not intricately familiar with it.

So what is it it's about? Because it's very realistic. It's about stuffed animals basically becoming real. And so they become real. When a child chooses that stuffy as its favorite and hugs it and loves it, it becomes real. And so the Velveteen Rabbit. There was a little boy who was quite sick, and this stuffy got chosen as the, you know, the one that was going to become real. And so he was talking to the other toys, you see, and he was asking the skin horse, you know, what it means to become real, and is it going to hurt? And the Skin horse was like, oh, yes, it will, but it won't happen quickly. It takes a while to become. And it does not happen to people who break easily, you know. And once you become real, you can't become unreal again. And it's just this beautiful story about becoming a human being, really. And that's the thing, I think that's hard. You know, we're talking about athletes, and I think it's hard for parents, too, to let their kids become real. And Let them be broken through the sport journey, you know, and let them get hard feedback and let them strive. It's really hard to not want to protect them. But then I think it's so important to think back to that Velveteen Rabbit, you know, idea where you have to allow your children to become free and become who they want to be and let them make choices and learn and grow from that as well. But it's tough. It's tough for parents, for sure.

I think you're reading my mind, because I was just thinking that as you were saying it, that there's so much more to life. There's business, there's sports. There's what we go through. For you, your mother as well, and a wife. And for you personally, what are your biggest struggles? What are the things that you find have been really challenging for you personally?

Yeah, I think that it depends on the phase of my life I'm in. And so we talked about values. And so I've definitely had opportunities, and I think perhaps yourself, as a working professional, you can understand this as well. But there was a point where I had worked very hard in my career, and I was getting a ton of opportunities with the best NSOs, top NSOs in our country, several sports, and it was unbelievable, my opportunities. But I was traveling a lot, and I was going. You know, I'd literally go from world championships, come home, repack a bag, go to the Paralympics or Olympics, pack a bag, go to this, you know, and I'd worked really hard to accomplish that, but it wasn't in line with what my values were. And my breaking point was when I was in Rio de Janeiro and my child, my son, was young, and now we know at the time he was having. He was struggling, and now we know he had celiac's disease. So. But he just. For me, I was like. He was just really struggling, and I wasn't able to be there for him. And I remember I was in Toronto, and I was sitting at that airport getting ready to fly to Rio, and I was sitting in the lounge there in Toronto, sobbing, like, not wanting to get on the plane, feeling like I was abandoning my family. And in my mind, I said, I'm making different choices from now on. I would tell other people to live aligned with their values, and I'm not living aligned with mine. And then I stepped back from several nsos. And that sounds exotic and glamorous, but it's really hard to do when you work. You're so hard to get these opportunities. But for me, and now I reflect Back. It was the best choice I ever made. I was unhappy for many years, but having a lot of difficulty admitting to myself that it wasn't the right fit for me. And everyone does it differently. Someone who picked up an NSO contract just had a young baby, and it was a good fit for her, but it just wasn't for me. And how, you know, everyone's different and everyone has to have the freedom to choose the life they want. And so I wasn't able. For me, I wanted to, you know, be a mom. I wanted to be home for my kids. That was just my priority. And I feel like in my life I had lots of opportunities to see examples. You know, I was. My first job as a faculty member. There was an older faculty member who was incredibly well valued in the faculty. He had retired and had a lot of honors, but he had no relationship with his family. Right. So I saw a lot of examples like that, and I was like, that's not the life I want. So I have always, throughout my life, made family first decisions, and it's really bottom, for sure, impacted the trajectory of my career. I'm way more competent and capable than, you know, what I currently do professionally, and I know that, and I'm okay with that because it's aligned with who I am. So I think over time, that's been a struggle, making sure I've stayed connected to my values and been able to be present. Being present is the number one thing for me. And now I remember the day my son was in kindergarten. I was sort of walking them across and I let them go, and they're running across the field. And I remember in my head I thought, wow, I'm so thankful I was as conscious as I was about the choices I made, because now they're the world's like now. Other people can influence them, but especially when they were young. I made so many choices to not take positions because I thought it would take too much of me and I wouldn't be as emotionally available for my family. And now we're at the other end where my daughter's leaving for university next year, you know, and she's going to Dalhousie. And, you know, I really. I'm really happy for her and where she's going, but I think that will be now. My challenge will be. It will be different. And in some ways, I think we're prepared in the sense that we've always. I have traveled and done things, but we. And we've always stayed in touch and connected. And it's just that she'll go. But interesting. During the COVID period was the most home and present. I've been like, my. My daughter was on a plane with me when she was three months old, right? That was her first trip. You know, I've been always in that. I was home for such a period of time that. But I found it was a real gift to be able to spend that time with her and to get to know her more as a person. And so I think I'll miss her more because we've had that time to reconnect. So it will be. I think that will be hard. I've already. I know one of the coaches out there, and I was telling. I was texting with him about it, and I was like, yeah, I'm going to be a mess on the flight home. And he's like, yeah, all the moms are. It's okay, you know, So I think that will be. That'll be my latest thing is like, you know, and. But I think, you know, she's definitely got a good head on her shoulders, and she's ready to do whatever that might be, whatever her next steps are in her journey. And I'm really happy for her. But I know it'll be different, and I think that that will be. Take some time to get used to how it all flows as a family now when that. That really important piece is in a different place. Because I do think that, you know, this is her starting point, and I. You know, she likes to travel and do things, and I do think she'll sort of head to other places after that. I don't necessarily think it's like she's going away for a year and coming. Coming home, you know, so it's just. I think that shift will be challenging as well, but once, you know, again, there's been so many people along the way. I remember there was one often I've gone to get continuing education units, and there was a gentleman who would come, and he'd always come to the woman's lunch, where we talked about women's issues, which we were like, oh, amazing. And I saw him, and he was someone. He was working. He works at ucla, and he was at bowl games because it's bowl season or whatever, and. No, it was just regular season. But he was away, and I remember he paid for a ticket to fly home to do Halloween with his kids, and then he flew back to the competition. And I'm like, why would you do that? And he's like, because I want to and you don't get this time back. So, you know, those people, I've always listened when I've seen that. And, you know, you have to fight for what's important to you because we all have a limited time to kind of do it, and you don't get that time back. So for me, that's the thing that I've always really tried to balance, is being present. And that's what he would always say, is you have to be careful how much of you you give away, because you need to save some of you for the people that are most important in your life. And everyone's different in terms of what that means. But that's definitely something that's been important to me. And I'm also really poor at my work if I don't do that, because I need to be whole as well.

Such an amazing way to finish that.

Because.

Realizing how much a part of you, your family is, how much a part of you and your values, your family is. And I know exactly, maybe not exactly, but I do resonate with that for sure. And some of the decisions I've made that were not the best financial decisions, not the best career decisions, because they were really aligned for what I wanted to do with my family. Like, I stepped away from Hockey Canada and having worked with them for three years leading into the Sochi gold. And it was, you know, I was in situations at camps, nursing, and it just wasn't. It didn't work for me in the long run. And so, yeah, I know that for those of us who are in love with what we do and in love with our careers and don't see it as a job, but see it as a purpose and see it as a passion, that it can be really challenging to make those decisions because it seems like, well, obviously your family is this priority, but at the same time, this is part of the bigger picture priority for me as a human as well. So it's challenging. And on that note, for me anyway, do you any thoughts on the women who have had to fight so bravely with a lawsuit for the Olympics and be able to have their children with them or not make a choice between their child and going to the Olympics? Any thoughts on that?

Well, I think it's always hard to be the first, and I think that sometimes there's just not the right people around the table. When I worked at Kansas State University, there was a faculty member named Dr. Atakarim, and he did a lot of consultations with corporations where at the time people were putting out these giant ad campaigns that would offend entire groups of people, and they're spending a lot of money and realizing that was wrong. So he would literally go and he would be a consultant for them so that they wouldn't do that, so they wouldn't have to pull their ads because it was costing them a lot of money. And when he came back, he was like, you know, they're not bad people, but they just don't have the right people around the table to make those decisions. And so I think that. I think it goes back to some of what the world is wrestling with right now, you know, is the unconscious biases, the systemic racism, all the Black Lives Matter movement, all the recognition of colonization and what it's done in Canada with some of our aboriginal peoples. And, you know, we're just. We don't always have the right voices in the room, and we don't always recognize the privilege that we have. And so the people that made that decision never faced that situation. I know when I was at Kansas State University, there was a student. I was at a faculty meeting, and I was the only female at these meetings. And I've been in that situation many times. And the conversation around the table was that there was a student who was breastfeeding in the back of the room in a class, and they basically wanted to develop policies so that couldn't happen. And they weren't meaning anything negative about it. They just wanted to do it because they felt it was disruptive. And so I was like. I'm like, actually, I can't even. I think what we should do is the complete opposite. We should applaud that person for actually showing up to class. We should see what other supports she has in her life. And, you know, if she gets an education and if she happens to be the only provider for this family like they. She. You know, why would we discourage her from being in this classroom? And quite honestly, I said most people who breastfeed in public, in my experience, are very, very humble about it and very, you know, and so if people are looking, that's their issue. Man, I doubt she's flashing stuff around. She's probably trying to be really quiet about it in the back. So anyways. But it wasn't that they were trying to exclude, but they didn't realize they were because they've never been in that position before. And I do think that it's, you know, good for them for having the strength to do that. But it is hard to be the first, and they're probably very tired from. From that battle. But these are these are battles we need to use our voices for and fight because they'll smooth the way for other people. And hopefully we can start to look at that, because I see that in professional sport all the time. You know, we both worked with the men's and women's volleyball team, and when you look at the success the men's team having, these are people that have been with the program for many quadrennials, like, many years, and that's why they have the experience and the wisdom. It's a very technical sport to do so well. The women's team is not progressing in the same way. Most of the women only last one quadrennial men go play professionally. They get paid enough to feed a family. And it's very positive for a woman to follow a man and be married to a professional athlete. That is cool. It is not very positive for a male to follow a female. And a lot of times females have choices where it's like, do I want to have a family or do I want to continue my sport? Do I want to stay in this relationship, or do I stay with my sport? A lot of them are very intelligent women, and they go on to go to law school or medical school, and their families, quite honestly, are encouraging them to do that because they want them to be able to earn their own money and be independent and, you know, be able to stand on their own two feet. And you. You can't really argue with that. So it is different. It's very rare. Sarah Pavan's an unbelievable example of that. I love Sarah. She's an incredible woman, and, you know, her partner has chosen to partner with her. And, you know, there's a lot of people who make comments on that, but he's. He loves his life, she loves her life, and they. They have a great partnership. But if that was reversed roles and, you know, Sarah's one of the best athletes in the world who loves doing her sport, and would we ever question a male athlete for that choice? You know, and so it's very. It's subtle sometimes, but it is present. And I do think in all walks of life, we're trying. We're trying to unpack what to do with this when power structures are usually dominated by certain genders or certain races. Mm.

That. I think we could go in deeper on that. Definitely. I have a lot of experiences and thoughts and all kinds of things on that note. And at the same time, I also want to be respectful of your time and understand, too, that just having you in this circle, at this table is part of these conversations as well, opening the door to making it a.

Just a conversation, even.

Even if it's not a battle, even if it's not a. You know, I'm. I'm a fighter. I love to do what needs to be done to get the thing done. And I'm also learning along the way that sometimes it doesn't have to be a fight. Sometimes it can be inclusive conversation, a circle, you know, whatever. Whatever it happens to be. But I. Yeah, I appreciate that because there's more. We need more and more conversation around.

All of these things.

And I see a lot of women being frustrated and having to prioritize with their family and themselves versus the fight, per se, because it's too much more to take the. Take the fight on when there's still themselves and their family in a space that. That becomes the priority. And so it seems to take longer. Sometimes that's just a comment there. On a finishing note, though, in terms of a message that you'd like to send to those athletes out there, coaches out there, people who are striving for their next level, if there's one message that you'd like to send that just really resonates for you and you'd like to share, what would that be?

Well, that's difficult, I guess, for sure. I'll just. I'll talk about one that I think that we don't pay attention to enough, and I'll just say that all emotions are good. You know, be curious and compassionate. Be kind to yourself. You know, I think that that's. It's really important to take time to allow yourself to feel emotion and to be open and honest and, you know, take the time to sit with it. I think that's really important.

Beautiful. Well, I really, really appreciate having you. I think we might have to do this again because it seems like we've got a lot more to dive into. So thank you so much for being with us. Adrienne and I look forward to. To being able to do this again.

Awesome. Thank you so much. It was fun.

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