Dr. Greg Wells - Scientist - Author

This is episode 226 of the Empowered Team Podcast. Welcome to the Empowered Team Podcast where we explore how to optimize your performance in career, sport and life. And now your host, executive coach and life strategist, Kari Schneider.

Welcome to the Empowered Team Podcast.

I'm so excited to be back here with Dr. Greg Wells, who is an exercise physiologist, a researcher, a family man extraordinaire, and someone who I love to chat with. One of the reasons why is because you practice what you preach so much. So tell me a little more about you or tell our audience a little more about you besides what I've shared.

First of all, it's great to speak again. It's awesome to connect, even if it's over, you know, whatever web platform we're using. It's just so amazing to actually, like, see people and talk and have great conversations. This is awesome. Exercise physiologist by training. I'm still at the Hospital for Sick Children as a researcher in translational medicine. We do exercise medicine there for kids with cancer and cystic fibrosis and other things. That program is ongoing. That's where we publish all of our research. I also do a lot of public speaking, taking that information about health and wellbeing and sharing it with as many people as possible. I've written four books. The fifth one comes out in a couple of months. That one's called Powerhouse. Super excited about that. And I've got a background in coaching Olympic level athletes as you do as a physiologist through the SportsCenter network. So that's been amazing as well. It's been quite a ride and loads of fun and just super happy to start to enter the phase of my life where I can share that at scale and that's what the next phase is going to be all about.

Well, I mean, first of all, congratulations, because writing four books really takes something, let alone getting into a fifth. Yeah, no, no.

No, no, it's not. Every book is like pulling your own teeth. That's how I describe it. Like there it's just. And it's an excruciating process, but it forces you to catch up on the research. It forces you to create so structures and frameworks that people can use. So I try to write one every two to three years. So I'm done this one and I figure I got at least two to three years where I don't have to think about another one, but I'm sure I probably have at least one or two more in me. We'll See how it goes.

Amazing. Well, okay, Before, I have some personal questions for you about your own practices. Because what I believe in is that it's amazing to have all kinds of knowledge, and we accumulate and assimilate so much knowledge. But I don't subscribe to knowledge is power. I tend to think of clarity and action are power. So I want to ask a bunch of personal questions. Before we go into that, though, tell us a little bit about the fifth book, the Powerhouse. First of all, I love the title Powerhouse. So tell us a little bit about this book.

Got it. So I totally agree with you around Clarity. We've always sort of said clarity precedes mastery, Right? Like, you have to have a clear vision of where you're going, and then you can implement the practices that enable you to achieve amazing things in. In your life. And so the new book is all about that. It's just like taking the latest information and putting it into a structure that we can apply. So the first section is all about breath work, because that's a fascinating area. Funny enough, that's what I did my doctorate research on 20 years ago, so now it's relevant. It only took 20 years. I spent far too long thinking about breathing. Then the second section is just updates on exercise and physical activity, because I really do think that that's something that we've seen in the pandemic is sort of a divergence in that some people got really fit and some people really struggled. And at the beginning of the pandemic, I was definitely one of the people that struggled with that and then managed to turn it around near the end and get back on a good trajectory. The third section is all about energizing and getting more energy because I feel people are tired. I feel they're burned out. So I just wanted to share some ideas around how to get more energy. And the philosophy there is hormesis. A little bit is good, A lot is not. That applies to, like, hot, cold, intermittent fasting, those sorts of. Those sorts of things. And the final section is all about thriving because I want people to be able to reach their potential and get back to really getting excited and joyful and having an impact in the world. And that revolves a lot around the people, places, and pursuits that bring us joy. So that's what the book's about. Breathe, move, energize, and thrive.

I love this. And I think this is not only so needed right now, but. But valuable, massively valuable, because people are searching and people want. Especially the thing that you pointed to with energizing that section, that third section, energizing, is if, if I'm communicating with people in all walks or especially business, they find themselves feeling low on energy. And that can be one of the biggest complaints overall. And, and as you know, that can be a precursor to something else that's not discovered health wise, eight months, years down the road. So on a personal note for you, clearly this is your not only passion but likely purpose in life to really get the information out to as many people as possible. Would I be, would I be accurate in saying something like that?

Yeah, I think I've really figured out that what I, what I'm good at is translating science, that people can understand it. And I'm just trying to lean into that a lot more. I'm a good researcher, I'm not winning the Nobel Prize anytime soon. But what I am really good at from a, you know, a researcher perspective is taking that research, breaking it down and making it understandable and actionable. And so that's the mission, that's the purpose, that's what I'm going to be doing for the next while. In addition to sort of making sure that my kids have a good life and all that sort of stuff too.

Yeah, you know, there's the family and there's the purpose and it's like, okay, my purpose is still nothing without my family. So you know, it all puts us, puts things into perspective.

100 and also, you know, we, there's an interplay there. Right. Like, and a lot of people put everything else before themselves. So they'll put family first, they'll put work first. And I've been in several situations where I have not been well and, or my daughter has not been well. And even Adam's gotten sick and Judith's gotten sick. When any member of your family is not, not doing well, it puts, it makes it impossible for you to do anything else because that is the massive priority. But what I would submit to all of your listeners right now is that it is not selfish, in fact, to put yourself first. It is actually self full. And we need to do that because we've been through this collective trauma of whatever has happened over the last few years. Not going to get into that. But in order for us to move forward, mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, community wise, I really do think we need to recover and regenerate. So that means putting yourself first, getting in your own workouts, doing the meditation, doing the journaling, doing the gratitude practice spending time with people that you love. And that is then what enables you to do your Best work. That is what then enables you to be the best for your family. So it's an interesting approach that I think that we all need to take these days. And that is really, you know, put yourself first. And that's how we create that amazing connection between our purpose and our family and our work and our mission and all that sort of stuff and how it comes together.

And it's one of those things that, you know, the listeners on here, achievers or overachievers and leaders, tend to want to serve, serve, serve, do, do, do, and they feel that that's going to bring the fulfillment often and yet at the cost of themselves many, many times. So it's one of those things that we like to take a lot of action, we like to do a lot of things, we like to help a lot of people, and we forget that when we're not taking care of ourselves, then. Then what? How can we keep doing those things?

And it's unsustainable over the long term. Right. Like, it works in the short term, for sure. If you totally focus on work, you'll do really well at work for a little while, and that might even last for a few years, but eventually it's going to catch up with you. And when it does catch up with you, what's the quote? People will spend their lives, you know, making money, and then as soon as they're sick, they'll give away all their money for health. Right. So, and. And that's really what I don't want to have for people. I want us to be sustainable now. I want us to be consistent. I want us to have growth over the long term. I want us to have impact. But do so, do so in a way where health and performance come together at the same time. And those aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, I think they're mutually dependent. If we are going to reach our potential, if we are going to do our best, if we are going to thrive, we have to be healthy. You can't do that without being healthy. And similarly, I don't think you can perform to your potential unless you're healthy as well. So that health and performance has to come together to enable us to do our best and to. And to do well in this world. And that means family, that means us individually, and that means with whatever our work happens to be. Mm. And.

And yet, I imagine for you, I know that I have seen that at that spectrum of performance, that highest perspective of performance is often an unhealthy zone.

So, meaning it has been for sure. I Think. Go ahead. I. You and I have both seen that with the Olympic athletes, as I think you're about to say.

Yeah, yeah. That it ends up going into a zone of not being healthy because it's so extreme.

Yeah. And you know, that's. That was a lot of your work, obviously, that you did so well on the, on the physical training side with all of those athletes is. And our job as physiologists and as trainers with that group is to push them as hard as you possibly can with. Without making them sick. It's almost like you want to overwhelm them without burning them out. And that's like a knife edge. Right. Because you've got to be right on that edge of too much. We do need to impose stress, like the stress of training, the stress of mental training, the stress of competition, the stress of travel, because that's what if. If you rest, if you then allow recovery and regeneration, that stress is the stimulus for growth. But if it's overwhelming, it can make you very sick. It can burn you out. And that's mentally, physically and emotionally. So I think that's kind of the knife edge that we're all navigating right now. After three years of a lot of external stress, that recovery and regeneration piece is going to be massive for us to get us back to the point of growth rather than being on that overwhelming burnout trajectory that so many people are.

It's. I love, I love the way you've framed it, because if. If the general population took in that same mindset that an athlete has to have, which is to overreach, overreach, overreach, and then recover in order to have the super compensation, then that's the thing that athletes do. That's the periodization, that's the planning that we create on purpose. The stress, stress, stress, rest, and then have the results that we want. And I think that if the general public were adopting a. I call it strategic imbalance. Adopting a strategic imbalance where everyone's looking for balance, but there really isn't balance if you're trying to actually get some change in some zone of your life, whether it's your family zone or your career zone or your personal zone. So to in. To have the change, we need that level of stress, some sort of strategic stressor, but then the purposeful recovery in order to get the growth that we ultimately want. And that could be in anything from learning to physical stress. That. That brings me to some personal questions, which is, one of them is what tends to stress you the most? Because you are, you have a lot of pots on the stove, if you will. And there's the research, there's the book writing, there's your company, there's the public speaking, there's your family. So what tends to end up pushing you into that zone.

I know, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna go there. Are we? This is, this is what's gonna happen. We're gonna do this. So, yeah, what stresses me out the most probably if I was to, you know, like from a business perspective, when you're a solopreneur, I mean, I have a research practice at Tickets, but it's only, you know, one or two days a week. It's a small piece of the puzzle. The majority of my work is around public speaking and the consulting company that we've, that's really grown over the last few years and now also our app, which is, which is growing. There's a lot going on. And the one thing I've discovered really does stress me out is trying to manage the admin and the finances of a business because I've got 12 people on payroll. Like they depend upon me for their, their, their, their, their paychecks. Right. And that's hard. And when, you know, when you run your own business, some months are amazing, some years are amazing, some months are bad, and some years can be bad. And so navigating that responsibility to others is, is, is definitely difficult. And probably the thing that stresses me out the most when that happens, then one of the tactics that we and I, that I try to teach, which I'm trying to practice right now actually is just really focusing in on, okay, so what can I actually do? What is in my control? You know, if I need to get more speaking engagements, then what is in my control? Well, that's putting out world class content, believe it or not, on social media, not, you know, clickbait garbage, but just like really good thinking. And when I share that thinking at scale on social, guess what? Inbound comes and you get speaking engagements out of it. And so when I think about what's controllable that enables me to navigate the really difficult times. Stress often pushes you into dooms, scrolling in your brain, right? Imagining futures that don't exist or replaying the past, which stresses you out. And it's important to bring yourself back into that present moment and ask yourself, okay, so what can I actually do that serves me, that moves me in the direction that I want to go? And that's the, that's the practice on a day to day basis. One of the things that helps massively with that is of course, journaling. Right. If you have your journal, you can write things out. You can see, you know, what's your task list for the week? What are the three key things that I need to get done? And when you look at, you're like, oh, wow, that's a lot. I'm actually making progress when you don't, when I don't write it down, it, it can be overwhelming for me and I feel like I'm not really getting anywhere and I lose momentum. So that's, that's the stressor and how I navigate it. And the individual tactic that might help people is just really working in that journaling piece, which helps a lot.

Yeah, I think that that's what most people who are doing a lot of things struggle with in the overwhelm. It sounds like you're describing overwhelm. There's so much happening, there's so many things that could be done, and yet we have to pick one at a time in order to get those or leverage with one of the staff in order to make that happen. You, you said something and I'm, I'm. This is one of my zones of genius is, is the language. And you said I'm trying to. And the fact that you're trying to means that you're doing it and probably not doing it and doing it and not doing it. And that like the analogy is a blinker. How do you know it's working? Because it's going on and it's going off, it's going on. So it's working, you're doing it, it's happening. And then that's the, that's the step by step going forward. Then it's more habitual. So in your habits overall, you have to travel, especially now that, that it's not Covid because you had some time where you weren't traveling. When you travel, what are some of the habits around exercise that you. That are non negotiable because sometimes you don't have the access to what you ordinarily would at home or the routine you would ordinarily have at home when you travel, what's your non negotiable. No matter where you are, what's going on, what's the, what are the key exercise or exercises or practices that you commit to?

Got it. It's funny you mentioned that last week I spent a lot of time on airplanes and hotels all over the place. And I'm not happy with how last week went. So I've been Thinking about it quite deeply because I've got next week, I'm traveling. The week after, I'm traveling as well. So. And the main challenge then around travel, and this can be like, my challenge is I just get tired. Like, you're on airplanes, you're hauling through taxis into hotels and, you know, AV audio, visual checks and rehearsals and all that sort of stuff. You're tired. And so when you're tired, it's hard to find the energy to do the workouts that you would necessarily want to be doing. And so the non negotiables, which I managed to do last week, but I need to double down on next week, the non negotiables are an enormous amount of water. Just when you're on an airplane, you get dehydrated. And I find often that when I'm thirsty, I will feel hungry. And so in order to prevent water me from eating bad on the road, I drink a lot of water. That really, really, really helps. The other thing that's been massively beneficial is that if I don't feel like I have enough energy to do a quote unquote workout, go for a run, lift some weights, I just do yoga. And I've been doing 30 to 45 minutes of yoga almost every day probably for about six or seven months now. And it is making a massive difference for me. And last week I just did it in my hotel room. I did it in between the two double beds, on the floor, floor on the carpet. I mean, it's not perfect. It wasn't great. I definitely slipped a few times, but it was absolutely fine. And that way, at least I wasn't getting tight, I wasn't getting injured, I wasn't getting sore on the road next week, I've actually spread out the travel a touch. I will keep with the yoga, but I'm definitely doing some cardio workouts, which I've actually set up with a buddy of mine in each of the different locations that I'm going to. I'm like, hey, you gotta come to the hotel. You're gonna take me for a run. And that way I'm leveraging my network to make sure that I do what I need to do on the road. But the non negotiables are really just trying to make sure that I focus on food, trying to manage my fatigue while I'm traveling and working. And then the other piece of the puzzle is, like, don't necessarily feel like you have to do all the workouts. You just have to move a little bit. And that's What I did last week with yoga, which was still net positive, maybe not as good as I wanted to be with the weights, but it was fine and it, it worked out well.

Fantastic. Fantastic. So on that note, what, what energizes you the most? I, I ask it this way because I, I imagine that in your book, which I'm excited to read, the energizing section, I imagine that some of that might be a little more personal based on what is inspiring to someone. So for you, what tends to energize you the most?

You know, one of the things that we discovered during the pandemic for both Judith, my wife and I, was that we have very specific things that were taken away that we now know are absolutely critical for us. And for Judith, what energizes her is people. Like, she loves having people over, she loves having dinner parties. Like, she just loves her work. She's a chiropractor, acupuncturist. And so when she goes and she sees people one on one, that brings her to life. She's like so happy at the end of the day. What I've discovered that I need in order to be like, massively energized is outdoor exercise. Like, when I'm hiking in the woods, I am thrilled. When I'm cross country skiing, I'm super psyched. When I am paddleboarding, couldn't be happier cycling. Anything that is out, literally anything that is outdoors, makes me so incredibly happy. I'm back in Toronto right now and one of the practices that's sort of keeping me going because I live downtown, it's not easy to get outside and go for a cross country ski. So I've just been doing cold plunges in like it's, you know, it's where we January, I'm still doing getting in the lake almost every single day. And it's cold. It's like 2 degrees Celsius. And it's not warm here in Canada in the winter. But that's what's keeping me going right now is the cold plunge at sunrise in the middle of winter in the lake, in and amongst the ice. And the snow has been pretty massive for keeping me going right now.

Are you doing that daily or is that a once a week thing? Like, what's the, what's the frequency?

Probably two or three times a week, at least. And if I'm ever, like, stressed or if I'm like feeling a little bit down or I'm a little bit anxious or anything where I feel like my mindset is off a little bit I go straight into the lake. And honestly, it has been the number one game changer for my mindset, because I started probably last February. There was a day where I was just not feeling it. I was like. I was down. I was like. And I'm a super happy person, right? Like, I'm happy. I love people. I love my life and love my kids. I love. Like, everything's awesome. But every once in a while, I was feeling like, ugh, you know, just not. Let's call it. I think I was probably mildly depressed. Let's just say it. And I was like, I need to do something. I need to shake this up. And I looked out my window. I was like, okay, well, there's a lake down. Down the street. So I grabbed my swimsuit and I got changed, and I grabbed a towel and some sandals, and in the middle of a snowstorm, walked down and straight into the lake. And I did the whole Wim HOF breathing technique, which I learned from a buddy of mine in 2016. Was able to stay in for about five minutes, came back out, nice hot shower, and felt like a million bucks. I was like, okay, that's the ticket. That's what I'm gonna do. And it's been an absolute win for me when it comes to my mindset, because anytime that I feel like I'm struggling a little bit, going in the lake makes everything seem easy.

Oh, my goodness, that is so powerful. The research is there for depression. The cold exposure. Then you've got the breathing with it, challenging your nervous system, stressing your nervous system, and then working through it, telling your brain, your nervous system, your body, that you're safe, you're okay, and that ability just to wake the brain back up, that's powerful. Very, very powerful.

Yeah. And actually, what I've discovered, funny enough, because I. Where, you know, I've been going in with my. My apple watch, and I've been tracking my heart rate while I do it, and I've been contrasting what happens to my heart rate when I'm in that sauna, and that is my heart rate increases. Actually got to 143 in the sauna the other day at Other Shift, which is a studio in downtown Toronto where you can do hot, cold contrast. So I got up to 143, which is, like a hard run for me in the sauna. It was super hot. It was in there for, like, 20 minutes, and then it did cold plunge afterwards. And what I've discovered is that the cold plunge actually activates your parasympathetic system. The heat activates your sympathetic system, your stress system. The cold activates your parasympathetic system, which is your recovery and regeneration. And within two to three minutes of being in the cold water, my heart rate was down below 50. It could completely shut off my stress system. And that's what I think is really interesting, is that we can use the heat to stimulate positive adaptations in our cardiovascular system. Heat shock proteins, which get released when you're exposed to heat, have all sorts of downstream positive effects in the body. But then we have this cold, which we can leverage as well, which helps to activate your parasympathetic system, which helps you to recover and regenerate and decrease your overall stress levels. So the contrast between those is, I think, super powerful and definitely something I'm leveraging at the moment.

That is fantastic. Did you, did you have any of your HRV or heart rate variability metrics while you were doing it?

Yeah, well, I mean, I didn't look at them during because that would defeat the purpose, but I looked at them afterwards and it was. Yeah, it was pretty compelling, actually. It was. Yeah, it was really, really. It was really wild to see it. I'll. I'll flip you the, the image because I took a screenshot of it and if you want to post it up in the, in the show notes, you're more than welcome to do that.

I would love that. I'm. I. The heart rate variability was my first field of research and super fast.

And.

I was going to say, though, do you. Are those times of stress that you were talking about earlier and you are, you know, feeling perhaps like there's a lot coming at you, maybe out of control, maybe overwhelmed? What is your, Are you looking at your metrics at that time? Are you looking at your heart rate variability? Are you getting any. Are you purposefully not? What's the, what's the rationale for you?

The rationale for me is I think in some cases the data actually makes us more stressed out. And so, like, if, if I'm feeling overwhelmed, if I'm feeling like I'm struggling a little bit, I don't need my heart rate variability to tell me that I'm stressing out. Like, I know, and I think we all kind of have that same sensation. And so when I'm in those moments where it's difficult, when I'm not feeling good, when I'm stressed, when they feel that anxiety creeping up and I'm overwhelmed, the number one thing that I'm thinking about right now is just breath work, taking Those three long, deep breaths, really focusing on the long exhales, just to sort of calm myself down, give myself a bit of room between what's stressing me out and the responses that I may be having. If it's too short, I react, but if it's longer, through the breaths enables me to respond rather than react, which I think is massive for all of us these days. Trying to make sure that, you know, we don't lash out, we don't say anything that furthers the negativity that might be, that might be happening. Giving ourselves a little bit of that mindset space is really, really critical. Just to be able to respond to the challenges and be positive and be constructive and be supportive for all the people that we're, that we're interacting with. So, yeah, no, I'm not looking at it during, but I definitely deconstruct it afterwards to try to figure out what worked, what didn't work. There was a day when I was doing some. It was a tough day. I was trying to get a lot of stuff done and I noticed my HRV numbers getting, you know, lower and lower and lower, lower being more stressed. And then I would do breath work and it would pop right back up again to a nice high level of heart rate variability. And you can see that cycling sort of like, like teeth, like an allocator teeth sequence throughout the course of the graph. But yeah, you can definitely get some good data. But I try not to do it during because I just find it, you know, takes me out of what I need to be doing, which is usually just calming down and chilling. Yeah.

And. And then for the listeners, we, we haven't gone over this in a while, but typically that, that activation of the parasympathetic and the vagal nerve and that would be the long, slow exhales. Whereas if they wanted to wake up and activate and energize, it'd be the fast inhales and faster exhales. So do you, when it, when it comes to, when it comes to feeling really relaxed, feeling really. You pointed to that part where you were low. When you were in that low point, did you feel like you were stressed and low or did you just feel like you were low?

When you have different. They're different. Right. So one is like a high activation, which is that sort of stress anxiety zone. And then there's low activation, which is sort of like the fatigue and a little bit more depressed zone. If we think about yer Dodson law from 1908, any inverted U hypothesis where we're low activation, we're tired, we're fatigued, we're not motivated, maybe even depressed. Of course that will lead to low performance and low mental health. On the other end of a specific spectrum, you're too activated, you're too stressed, you're too nervous, you're too anxious. That's the tension zone also leads to very poor performance. There's that middle zone where you're energized and activated. And that's the magic. It's like that relaxation plus energy zone and that's what you're trying to get into. If you're, if you're not feeling it, if you're feeling down, then often I will visualize things that psych me up to bring me back into that higher energy zone. And if I'm too stressed, I'll do all of the breathing technique to help me to calm back down to get into that higher, high performance state. You can see athletes doing this right before they compete, right? This is often what you'll, you'll see them doing at the Olympics right before they're about to start. They're either doing the, you know, the hard exhales to psych themselves up or the long slow exhales to calm themselves down. But navigating that sweet spot in between, you know, as I mentioned, from the low activation to the optimal activation to not being too activated is really, is really the magic that we're shooting for.

And, and the visualization that supports that is so powerful as well.

Yeah, yeah.

Just I want to be aware of your time here. Last question here for you and then we'll wrap up. Do, do you practice any intermittent fasting? Do you do anything that's, I think of your travel and I think of, you know, some of the health benefits that come with intermittent fasting or time restricted eating. Is that something that you practice and how.

So yeah, so you've got intermittent fasting, got time restricted eating, and then you've got caloric restriction. And the research has shown that if you do intermittent fasting but you eat equal to or more calories, it does nothing. And so really what we're looking for is some sort of a combination of time restricted eating, so eating with a certain window of time and equal to or maybe even slightly lower number of calories. And that's the magic combination to make intermittent fat fasting actually work. What I have been focusing on recently is just simply not having anything to eat after dinner. So that gives you automatically 12 and 12, which steams in the research to show that that's how we get almost 80% of the benefits of intermittent fasting. If you add exercise that you get a little bit more. And then the other hack that I do is when I am traveling on an airplane or in an airport, I will not, I will not eat. So that's just my new rules that when I'm traveling I don't eat and I'll have something super healthy in the hotel when I get there. Usually like some sort of a, you know, mixed green salad with a double order of salmon or protein or whatever we can get on it. So that's how I'm working it right now. It's definitely of mine, but I don't go that extreme with it. I try to be consistent and reasonable. 12 and 12 and then I add a little bit more when I'm doing the traveling piece. But the key thing to make that work for everyone is realizing that it's actually a combination of time restricted eating plus a little bit of caloric restriction. Sort of like negative 50, negative, negative 100 maybe, depending on what you need to be doing. Like if you need to, if your body composition is where you want it to be, then that's fine. Keep it at, you know, an equal level. If we're trying to optimize body composition, maybe it's a little bit lower and if we're trying to gain muscle mass, maybe it's a little bit higher.

I'm really glad you described it that way because I think there's that common misperception that intermittent fasting is the thing to use for weight loss. And that's not, that's not where the health benefits lie. They're in the cellular restoration and autophagy and all the things so. And the energizing as well that comes from it as well. So last thing, I just, I want to say thank you for your insights, your input. I think your other amazing superpower besides translating research is this responsibility that you, you feel for people taking self care, really truly taking care of themselves in order to really get that, that high performance zone for themselves. So congratulations on your new book. Powerhouse fifth book. And you have your app as well. The name is Vivio. Am I saying it right?

Yeah, Vivio. You can check it out. VIIV IO we would be honored and grateful and super thankful if anyone wants to check that out. We putting a lot of effort into that and that's our big focus at the moment. So yeah, please check that out. Thank you so much.

And you are found on Instagram as well as other channels and whatnot.

Yeah, websites drgrells.com all my socials are at Dr. Greg Wells, super active on Instagram and LinkedIn.

Powerful. Thank you so much Greg. Take care.

Thank you so much. Take care. Talk to you soon.

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