EP12 Jude St. John - Football - CFL

This is the Empowered athlete podcast, episode 12. At 6 foot 4 and with a playing weight of over 300 pounds, today's guest, Jude St. John, is hard to miss. He's a giant of a man. He spent 14 years in the CFL and hoisted the Gray cup with the Toronto Argonauts. I had the pleasure of meeting Jude at the hockey arena, where else in Canada. Our boys were playing hockey together and we had some great chats and we really connected about life as a pro. And that's the conversation we want to share with you today on the Empowered Athlete podcast. Curry and I go into Jude's career with him. He walks us through the highs and the lows and also the transition and the end of his career after such a long stint in the CFL and what life holds for him afterwards. He's an amazing guy. He's brutally honest in this interview and we love everything that he shares. He's on point and in depth. You're going to love this chat with Jude St. John.

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Enjoy.

Oh my.

Big news. Big news, everyone. 2019 is going to be big. I'm going big. It's gonna be crazy. There is something coming your way. We're calling it the 1230 challenge. What am I even talking about? What is a 1230 challenge? Karina, break it down here.

12 as in 12 months of the year. 30 as in 30 day challenges. So we are doing 1230 day challenges for the year of 2019.

But why? Why would we do this to ourselves?

Again?

I forget.

I typically don't do things.

It's because we want to stretch and grow ourselves in all kinds of areas of our lives to uplevel and make a better life for ourselves.

All right, so if we want to do it, obviously maybe some people want to join in with us and come along for this adventure. How do people join our community?

Well, we've Got an amazing Facebook community called Empowered Top Performers. This is a private group, so you've got to look for us on Facebook and request entry and then you can join us in there. Or if you want to be a part of this as well and you're not on Facebook, then email. Paul, it's pdpowerconditioning.com that's actually my email.

So if you want to reach out.

And send me crazy thoughts, you can do that as well. Now. Okay, it's going to work like this, that people don't get to know everything that we're doing throughout the year.

We're going to let them know what.

The first challenge is, but then announce the other challenges on the 20th of each month once we're rolling. So what's the first challenge going to?

The first one is no meat. So this is how the whole thing started is I thought, hey, you know, I really want to grow in the area of being able to, to cook recipes that are meatless and have some really tasty ones. Lots of variety for the kids. And so let's try maybe a meat free 30 day challenge in January. And then of course, it snowballed from there.

Okay, but we're not going to just take away all the things we like to eat all year, are we?

Oh, no, this isn't an elimination thing. So there's going to be things you got to add in. There'll be 30 day challenges that you won't believe, especially February.

Wink, wink.

Oh, yeah. Okay.

Well, there you have it. Those are the basics. You know, where to reach out, to join the community, you know roughly what's coming for January and that it's happening all year long. We're excited. Hopefully you're excited. Get in there. We will see you soon.

Welcome to the Empowered Athlete podcast, created to support athletes in their pursuit of excellence and inspire others toward their best lives. Hosted by Kari Schneider, coach to top performers in sport and life, and Paul Durden, former national and professional volleyball player.

All right, everyone, welcome.

Welcome to the show.

And we are thrilled to have Jude St. John with us. Jude Curry and I had the chance to meet you where else in Canada at a hockey rink. There are sons playing hockey together, so we've known each other for a few years now, obviously all living here in London, and we're just thrilled to have you on the show and hear about your experiences. Welcome.

Well, thank you. It's great to be here. And Paul, I knew the legend of you much earlier than I actually met you, so it was a pleasure for me to get to meet you and get to know you and the boys playing hockey. And like you said, it's a experience that many Canadians will be able to relate to. So glad to be here, though.

Well, thank you again. And if you can get us started, Jude, just kind of backtrack and go back in time and tell us how you got started, because if people don't know you already, you had a pretty extensive career in the cfl. And at the same time, though, I don't think that's what your first sport love was. So if you could back us up, what was there for you? How did you kind of get started?

Well, you're. You're correct. I grew up, as many Canadian kids do, as a hockey player. And had I been asked really to my last year of high school, I would have told people, yeah, I play hockey. That's, that's my thing. I did other sports to, you know, keep me occupied until I could play hockey again. So that being said, I played football. I wasn't intending to play football in Grade 9, but my dad told me that I was playing football and I'm glad I followed it as his advice. Banting Secondary School in London. Played, actually played in grade nine and 10 and then didn't play in grade 11. I still hadn't. Didn't really enjoy the game that much.

If I can interrupt for a second, back in grade nine, couple questions. What position were you playing then and how, how big or small were you? Were you, you know, where were you at at that point back in grade nine? Just to give our listeners a visual here.

Yeah, but, so in grade nine, I was already, you know, big. I would have been the biggest one, one of the bigger kids, you know, top two or three in our, in our grade. So I was already built for it. But of course, you know, back then we weren't near as big as kids are these days. So I remember when I graduated high school, I was about 6, 4 and a half, maybe 2, 45, and I was one of the biggest kids in the school. Well, that wouldn't even be close anymore.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, for my, for my, in my day, I was big and I played defensive line in junior football in grade nine and 10, and then, like I said, skipped grade 11 and didn't play at all. And then in 12 and 13, we used to do the five years I was still playing defensive end on the defensive line, refused to play offensive line and wasn't glorious enough for me, I don't think. And, you know, was even still at that time, though. Like, considered myself primarily a hockey player. And it wasn't until after the football season of my fifth year when I got recruited by Western, where it sort of occurred to me that I should maybe pursue a different. Different track. And so that's what I ended up doing, going to Western. And I lasted as a D lineman for three days at Western. Three days into training camp, they switched me over to offensive line. And, you know, so I did that for four years at Western and then 14 professionally. So I was an offensive lineman by far for most of my career. And once I became an O lineman, I sort of took it to heart that I needed to be bigger and stronger. And so through my course at Western, you know, went from about maybe 245 to 270, lifting weights, put. But also, just to be honest, like, at O line, you get as heavy as you can, and if it's good weight, that's great.

If it's bad weight, that's okay too.

You work with it.

We.

All the way up to my playing in the CFL, I was 6'4 and a half, 315 to 325 most of my career, so got to be a fairly big guy, but was drafted by Hamilton Tiger Cats, played there for three years and then played 11 years for the Toronto Argonauts. And just maybe for listeners that would be tuning in who wouldn't know much about football, I'm one of the big guys who hits the other big guys. I don't get to throw the ball.

Can you break that down for me? Can you simplify that?

I don't get to touch the ball. If I touch the ball, something bad has happened. I just made my living assaulting other people pretty much.

I want. I want to know what you're eating. I mean, Kari, strength coach, specializes in, you know, coaching people on their training and what they're eating, things that.

What.

What were you eating to put the weight on? And is it anything and everything? Or did you. What were your go to meals or do you know how many calories you're consuming a day at your peak or anything like that?

Yeah, you know, we. One of the things with football in particular at that time, and I think it was worse than even worse other sports. You know, I think it was far less developed back then than it is now. But in particular, my position, we really did want to be as big as we possibly could and still be able to move, you know, so you would. I wouldn't pay attention to what I ate at all, really. And it was. It was pretty Much a free for all, which didn't bode well when I was finished playing in terms of, you know, that habit of just eating whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted. But that's pretty much what, you know, used to be able to do with very little, very little intentionality or purpose in eating other than not being hungry and having enough energy to do, you know, what I wanted to do. So I would say even throughout most of my professional career, that was something that I didn't look at, I didn't take seriously. And yeah, I think was all around something that was overlooked or neglected.

There's in Manitoba, I used to work with the University of Manitoba football team a long time ago. And you know, we always called the O line the Hoggies and they ate accordingly and whatnot. But there were a couple guys I knew once they were finished playing, they intentionally lost a fair bit of weight. And, you know, it was really interesting to see these guys as they would be at their probably normal size or weight for their body type, but they had spent so many years just trying to be as big as they could because they were online. And it was just what they had to do at the time. And it was like, you know, they used to any, any buffet or any. All you can eat didn't matter whether it was sushi or whatever. Like the guys would be doing that. And it was a sport in and of itself.

Yeah, then that's pretty accurate. You know, like you said, we would definitely be interested in a place where we could go and eat as much as we wanted. And so all you can eat Sushi was one of our favorites. We'd hit that pretty hard. But, you know, I had the same experience. I, I have had a couple times. Lost significant weight since being done. I've, I've gained a lot of that back. I've never returned to my original weight, which has been a good thing. But I lost at one time I was, you know, close to probably 90 pounds less than what I played at. Wow. And, you know, I still wasn't, you know, super lean that way. I thought, wow, that's. That was eye opening to sort of see what normal would be like and.

What feels best for you, do you think, for your healthiest or just feeling your best energy throughout your day, like, what. What do you think is the best for you?

Yeah, you know, I think when I got down really light, I didn't like being at that weight, even psychologically. My kids didn't like it either. They did not like seeing me sort of be this skinny guy. So I think, you know, I think I could do pretty well at, you know, 270, which sounds really heavy to some people, but to me, you know, I feel light as anything at 270. So I think, you know, a lot of it would depend on. On how my body holds up. And I have noticed in the last couple of years, it's starting to feel the effects more. But, yeah, I don't. I don't mind being big. I'll tell you one thing I noticed when I got to the real light end of when I lost that weight is people had a lot less respect for my personal space.

You know, interesting.

When you're £315, people give you a wide berth.

Yes.

And then I kept thinking to myself, why are people standing so close to me? I realized that. So that was one thing I definitely didn't like about being smaller.

Yeah.

I have the opposite problem where, like, my athletes feel like it's okay to pick me up. That's what comes with being tiny. Oh, my goodness. Okay. So it's interesting hearing what you're saying there, though, as well, because it plays into what we often talk about with the people we interview, which is your identity and even just with the weight you're touching on, what your identity is tied to. It's tied to size. It's tied to.

How your kids see.

You and what you're accustomed to from even a spatial awareness. So it's really interesting that way.

I would say when I was bigger, when I was playing football, if I walked into a room, people would notice, and I knew that they noticed, you know, and. And then, yeah, you get smaller and you walk in a room and nobody really cares.

Yeah.

Yeah. So it definitely. It impacts a bunch of different things like that, for sure.

And it's magnified in public if you're with one teammate or two and you've got.

Yes. Yeah. We went out.

Unbelievable.

We caused a stir for sure.

Yeah, yeah.

Restaurant owners must have just cringed, like, literally, just close the doors. Lock it down, please don't let them in.

We had a couple sushi chefs who weren't very impressed with us, so.

Yeah.

And there was a. I played with a couple of Polynesian guys in Toronto, two guys who did get kicked out of an all you can eat sushi place. They just said, we're not serving you anymore. So that was interesting.

It's like, low points in eating. Like, what do you call that?

Right.

So if you think back on your career, like, what a. What a fortunate thing to have in a career to Be with one team for so long, like, that's. That's typically unheard of. But if you look back on your.

Career, what are some of, you know, your most proud moments, some of those highlights that, you know, you just are an incredible thing to look back on in your life.

Yeah, you know, there'd be a couple things. Obviously, our Grey cup win in 2004, winning that championship is, you know, for athletes is such a big thing. And, you know, to sort of get that asterisk beside your name erased because you'd won a championship was a great feeling. So that, you know, that was a big one for me, I think, you know, in terms of just, you know, personal things. I had a very serious injury, compound fracture of my tibia in 98. And coming back from that and playing really 11 more years after that, I was impressed with. But, you know, in terms of overall, I am proud of the fact that I played for so long. The average football career is three years and something, and I played for 14. And a lot of ways, it is a brutal, physical sport, and so to last that long is something that was important to me. I wanted to be that type of a guy who could, you know, persevere. And last, in terms of overall, you know, I think I would say the friendships that I made with teammates would be the most valuable thing that I walked away from that sport. With footballs have big teams, there is a large variety of personalities and got an opportunity to meet all sorts of great guys and share that with them. So, you know, I always look to. Part of playing as long as I did was I always wanted my kids to remember me playing, so I had to play long enough. And we've got five of them. I had to play long enough to. So that they would all have memories of it.

So, yeah, that was part of it.

I've thought of that many a time for our youngest, for Paul, because she never experienced him play. But I was about to circle back and ask you. It is unique to be able to keep forging those relationships, but before that, when you'd mentioned about being proud that you played so long, what I was.

Gonna ask was, do you think it was your values?

Do you think it. You know, it was in the fiber of who you are?

Like, what.

What had you keep going and endure that because it's not an easy thing to do? And you kind of gave the answer in that part of it was, was the kids, you know, wanting to have them understand what it took to do what you did, maybe, or wanting them to experience not have just some of them experience it, but have all of them experience, you know, what it was like to play on that level of competition or, you know, all of the things. So, yeah, even.

And even receive, you know, sort of some of the benefits of being, you know, the child of a CFL player. I remember we, we went to a movie premiere in Toronto opening night, and it was, it was a pretty small movie. Like it was a kids movie or whatever, but, you know, they did it upright and they had the red carpet or whatever. And I remember I took my kids there and, you know, they were just awestruck. And, you know, for them to be able to do that. I also, I also performed with Ballet Canada, which is an interesting story. Yeah. Who would have known? Well, the. In Toronto, when they do the Nutcracker on one night, they have celebrities come and be part of the production. And so this year they wanted two Argos and so they took one D lineman and one offensive lineman. So you can imagine the two of us on a stage with a bunch of ballerinas.

Yeah, prima ballerinas.

Yeah.

But I remember, you know, taking my kids backstage and their, their eyes were as wide as saucers and them just being awestruck. And I thought they got to, you know, experience that because of what I was doing. So things like that, you know, went a long way. I also think, you know, the players who play that particular game for such a long time, which would include myself, have, you know, in them, you know, a singleness of purpose in terms of wanting to do that and wanting to forsake a lot of other things in order to do that. And so, you know, those types of players really have a, it seems an internal switch that doesn't have an off button. And so, you know, they can, they can put all their eggs in that basket and do what it takes to stay there. And so I think that was, that was part of what got me there.

It's an interesting thing that you point to because.

To really be good at what you do.

I mean, first off, in your position.

In sport.

That position is one of the positions that bring the averages down because it's so hard to maintain. And you're in that position, but you brought the average up. And at the same time, that singleness of purpose. There are so many people think of being a high performance athlete and all of the things that it is, but don't truly embrace the actual sacrifice, multiple sacrifices that need to be made in order to A, have the longevity or B, really get to that top level and be able to sustain a top level. And there's so much that goes into it, and there's very, very few people who are able to do that consistently. Yet those are typically the ones who overcome the surgeries and forge through the toughest times and overcome the greatest illnesses and setbacks and you name it, and then keep going and come back. Whereas the other ones, the people who don't end up having that longevity end up. There's something that always ends the career. There's always gonna be something. There's gonna be a reason, an injury, a thing or whatever. But the ones who last longer end up going beyond that and then also sacrificing the things that many people won't sacrifice. And that might be the partying, the, you know, whatever it is that is a distraction from where they really want to go in their sport.

Yeah, there's a big price to pay. And, you know, I think there are guys who are willing to pay that price, but who lack, you know, perhaps the physical attributes to do it. You know, I look in terms of, you know, certainly those who, you know, guys who can do these different things for such a long period of time have, you know, been given a gift that, you know, a lot of people would have loved to have and. But, you know, aside from that, there's a bunch of people who may have those types of physical attributes who aren't willing, you know, to pay the price. You know, and sometimes you don't even know the price you're paying. You had brought up about retirement and the difficulty with that. You know, I played for a long time, and it was great. And when I was done, all my peers had management positions and were making good money in their fields. And I went into teaching and got, you know, 75% less than what I was getting when I played. So you're. You're even paying a price on things that you don't realize till you're done. But, you know, I think it does. It took a. It takes a certain type, and I'd do it all again if I could.

Yeah, it's amazing points that you're both making. And it really resonates with me, what you said, Jude, about one of the first things you're most proud of. You mentioned the longevity, and I really get that because it was the same for me. I was extremely proud of the length of my career because, as you know, we're keenly aware of what it takes to do that, how rare it is. And, you know, the worst thing for an athlete is to simply be deemed not good enough. Maybe you hit that level for two or three years and you've got a short time on the stage and it's over. So to be able to be on that stage year after year, competitive competing, winning championships, doing things like that, it's really a badge of honor. And to your point, Karia, people don't know the crazy amount of work and discipline that needs to go into it to have that longevity and the sacrifices of yeah, just not having fun that other people are having because you got to train or be dis. Whatever it is. And well, you know, the problem, the problem. So I just want to say that the problem I ran into to do that, it's so all encompassing, so single mindedly focused that I had no other life. I was a volleyball player. And so when it ended I was completely lost and just, you know, basically this shell of my former self zombie walking around and I want to know your more about your transition and your. When you had to call it a day and what was that like for you?

And yeah, you've, you've spoken to a lot of it. You know, I spent 14 years professionally telling myself that my identity was not found in football. And then when it was taken away from me, realizing I had built a lot of my identity on being a football player. And so I, I boiled down the diff, you know, the main initial difficulty of being done. I didn't retire. The Ergos asked me to retire and I said no. So they cut me. So I'm technically a free agent in case any GMs right now. That's right. What it boiled down to and they were nice about it and they were classy about it, but what it boiled down to is someone telling you you're not good enough anymore. And that was brutal. That was, it just, it drove me crazy that I, everyone hears those words eventually. But I didn't, you know, I didn't care for them. So you know, I'm happily married, I had wonderful healthy kids. I have very strong faith and very faith community that I was a part of when I was playing that we maintained my whole career, you know, had a job to fall back on when I was done. In all sort of those, you know, respects I thought, you know, I've got my life together. But when, you know, football was taken away, it was way, way, way more difficult than I thought it was going to be. And so I would, you know, when I hear stories of, of you know, professional athletes who are done playing and then, you know, end up committing suicide or you know, Becoming addicted to drugs or whatever, I understand where they're coming from, because that was a much, much harder process than I thought it was going to be. And, yeah, there were some. There were some dark days, for sure. I think there's a lot of reasons for that. But I would definitely attest to what you're saying, Paul, that it was way tougher than I was anticipating.

What's the most interesting to me about that is that you were proactive. You had things and you had community in place. You had your faith, you had your family. You also had a fallback career. You had another thing that, you know, you'd been, I think, teach, substitute teaching in between. So, you know, you were good to go when it comes to what you're stepping into next. So there's all these things in place and because you know that there's going to be a transition, you know, it's going to be tough, and yet it still blindsides you in some way or another, you know, like, that's almost the biggest smack in the face. It's like, okay, I was. I've done everything right. I'm totally prepared, and yet. No, you're not.

Right.

And that's one of those things that is. You realize it's like. It's like trying to tell somebody what it's like to have a child for the first time. You can never prepare somebody until it actually happens. Right. Nobody fully, fully understands what you mentioned. Those really, you know, you had some dark days, you had some dark times. What was that like for you? And. And what did you do to overcome that?

You know, like I said, it just. The sort of darkness I was taught was just sort of a negative posture on things. You know, there were some very simple things, I think, that were, you know, like, there was a rhythm to my life, really, for 20 years, you know, off seasons and in season and even a weekly schedule that I was used to playing a game, getting a day off and practicing. And then all of a sudden, something you've been doing for 20 years, you know, has taken away from you that rhythm. I remember Nicole, probably a couple years into being done football, finally clued in why I would always get so agitated in May.

I was gonna say time of year, season, it's spring training camp.

That's right. Training camp was coming up. So there's things like that. You know, there's other things, too. I remember sitting in meetings with other teachers and, you know, someone else saying something that I thought was pretty ignorant and disrespectful and to be Honest, stupid and thinking, you know, if I was playing football, we'd go out on the field in about an hour and I would make you pay for that comment. That's not going to happen now. Right. So that gets built up.

I don't know how that wouldn't be appropriate.

Yeah. Or even sitting in, in meetings and thinking of all the pranks or jokes I'd like to tell which I could get, you know, disciplined for. So there was those sorts of things that you know, just started to build up and build up and there was some negative character things as well. You know, there's, there's a, there's a type of pride where you elevate your own self importance far beyond what's appropriate and think of yourself too highly, which I think is very detrimental, particularly when you're not getting the attention that you used to get and that, you know, you're not getting the phone calls to speak at things and all sorts of stuff. So, you know, there was some innocuous things that, you know, were just part of a life change, but there was also some character issues too, which I, you know, think played a big part. I know, you know, two things I'll mention in terms of getting through that. You know, the first is my faith and you know, the time when I was done football, that was a real time for introspection in terms of what I believed and what I believed about God and how he cared for me and those sorts of questions that I had to answer. And I think I knew them intellectually and I had studied them and I could have given the right answers, but they weren't experiential knowledge, they were head knowledge. And I had to learn what it meant to really have faith in terms of walking through something. The other thing would be my family. You know, my wife was very supportive in spite of times when I was being a jerk. She supported me and encouraged me and the kids played a very big part in that too. You know, one particular, they were all wonderful. But my oldest daughter, for her grade eight speech, wrote a speech, you know, basically on how great her dad was. And I was sitting at the kitchen table and she came and read it to me and I just broke down when she was reading it and I mean, I was sobbing at the table and. But you know, that was a real moment for me. And you know, in this, your, your eight year, you realize your eight year old daughter is, you know, making a decision on her speech based on trying to help her dad navigate what he's going through. And that Is that was just. Not only was it a precious thing that she did for me there, but it was also a splash of water in the face to say, you know, you gotta. You gotta pull out of this and get on with things. So, you know, my faith and my family were a big part of, you know, sort of working through that. And I'll be honest, there's still days today when I get frustrated about things in regards to that. I don't love watching football because it bothers me that I'm not playing. I watch them playing and I want to do that. And so I don't watch much football, you know, so it had a big impact. And, you know, I think obviously I'm through the most difficult part of that, but it's even ongoing now, and it's 10 years later, so it's a big deal.

I love hearing just how raw and how much you're sharing. There's a couple things that I think are so valuable for people to understand and that your realizations. Number one, with your faith, you're putting your, as you would say, faith in something that's larger than yourself, that you can't necessarily. You just simply have to trust. It doesn't matter because you don't know anything about any of it. So all you have to do is simply trust that this is the direction that is right for you. And at the same time, your daughter is shining the light on the fact that how. Who you are and how you're being still has a ripple effect on everybody else around you. Everybody is still impacted. And sometimes, sometimes that needs to be. We as ourselves, we need to become aware of that so that we understand that, hey, I know I might be hurting right now, but guess what? You know, I still am having impact on other people, even though I might think that I don't or that I'm not. And. And that sometimes is that little wee catalyst to wake somebody up to go, okay, I need to keep putting one foot in front of the other. I need to keep doing these things because there are other people who care about me or depend on me or are impacted by what I do. And, I mean, the other thing I was thinking of, when it comes to Paul, when you're talking about watching football, I kept thinking as that sometimes supportive partner, I kept thinking that, okay, well, you know, he's commentating for World League for Volleyball, and that seems to light him up. But then there wasn't that lasting fulfillment from it. It wasn't even commentating for him for the Olympics. I kept seeing, you Know, him being lit up, but then almost, you know, fall back down or, you know, just not have that lasting fulfillment from it. And, you know, Paul, you can speak to this, but it's just. It's almost painful to not be able to still be part of it.

Yeah, it's painful is the word. It's. I spoke with Chris Burley offline. We've had the chance to interview for the podcast, and he said to me like this, that, you know, people say, oh, you know, you're done your career now. You've got all these exciting opportunities in front of you and things that you can do. But he says, how can you expect me to go from being on the floor of the Olympics, performing in the thing I've loved and trained my whole life for that high, to ever find that high again, Right. That in his mind, it's just not possible that the, you know, the glory days and that, that sort of lens to look back on your career as. And it is something that really can't be matched. It's so unique and so special and having your identity tied to it. I've lost my train of thought. So many things are popping in my head as you were speaking there, but I know Kari mentioned me looking at volleyball, and it is really painful. I want to be there. I know how good it feels. I know what goes into it. I miss the camaraderie that you mentioned with the teammates. That's the things I miss the most, the day to day. Joking and pranks and just feeling alive and, you know, always on your toes because somebody might be trying to get you in a good way.

And I was the subject of some.

Of those pranks, by the way. So it's like you can just.

But it's, you know what you're missing and you know how great it is, and it's really tough. And I know for me, when it was all over, I. You mentioned, you know, having maybe a bit too big of an ego when you're done playing and thinking yourself a certain way. And part of that is a necessity to succeed while you're in it. You have to have supreme confidence. You have to believe you're better than the other guys to beat them. And sprinters are the perfect example of, you know, egotistical. I am a wrecking machine. I'm faster than everyone else in the world. You have to think that to win the hundred meters. And. And so what comes with that, though, is that when you're done, you know, I'm Paul Durden. I'm a great Volleyball player. I don't need help. I can't ask for help. Literally, I can't. I can't. I literally can't. Because if I do, then I'm not really who I was. Right, that makes sense. And that whole stigma around asking for help or saying, you know, this is tough for me. I don't know what to do with my life. Yeah, that was a huge struggle for me, you know.

Yeah. What goes along with that is just the success that we were fortunate to experience. You know, part of that is not just being confidence, but also not admitting weakness. Right. And we grew up in an era where oftentimes you'd hide injuries from coaches and, you know, you just did not want anyone to have any reason to doubt your ability to get something done. So, you know, not only was the confidence perhaps in your ability to do something deteriorating because you actually can't do it as well as you used to, but you're also trying to try to hide the weakness that's there. And both those things lead towards not, you know, not looking for help or not asking for help.

That's a huge point. You don't want to show weakness because there's someone else who can step up and take your spot, and they will.

Exactly, exactly. And the other thing, too, that I was thinking of, when it comes to those identities and needing to be who you are, being in that identity. But it's fueled so heavily by that celebrity status that our culture feeds for athletes. Like the fanfare, the. The athletes who keep rising in the ranks of their sports and getting to a pro or a national level, they are looked upon as a celebrity. And so, you know, that's. Then when you're done, it's like you're still walking around wondering why you're not so special anymore.

I remember, Paul. I actually remember standing beside you during one of the boys games. We're watching our boys play hockey, and, you know, you obviously had huge success on a world stage. I had my own success here in Canada, primarily. But I remember standing there and thinking, you know, as people sort of were lined up beside us, these people have no clue who we are, you know, and we hadn't been out of the game that long, you know, and just thinking, like, it's gone like this. You know, we're nobodies, and I realize we're not. But it has that sort of dramatic feeling to it that it's. It's gone just like that. So, yeah, it's a very real thing to. To deal with.

I was at my daughter Is. Well, she's same age as your. One of your daughters. She's playing soccer in university. And I met one of the volleyball players for the school there, and it dawned on me when I mentioned Paul. But what happens typically in volleyball, because it's a little bit of a smaller community, because Paul's been referred to as the Wayne Gretzky of volleyball. Right. In Canada. And I ended up mentioning Paul and this volleyball player. This is the first time I'd experienced this, didn't know who he was. And I was like, oh, my God, it's happening.

This is like the moment that people become, you know, the worst word to an athlete, which is the. Has been.

Right.

But that's the. It's almost like this is what has to happen for the lesson to be learned for many retired athletes to go, okay, guess what? I hate to break it to you, but so much more about life than what it used to mean to you. You know, even though it was so important and so big and you impacted so many people and influenced so many people in their lives, there's still so much more to life, you know?

Absolutely.

So, yeah, it's those tough lessons.

Well, I think it's a great segue, I think, to ask you, Jude, you.

You were.

We spoke about you being a teacher, but now you find yourself as lead pastor at your church. Why don't you tell us about bigger things and helping more people and. And what that means to you and how that came about?

Well, I think, yeah, to what was just spoken. You know, what I'm doing now gives me almost. I'd almost want to say daily, certainly weekly reminder that there are, you know, things a lot. A lot bigger and let's be honest, a lot more important than, you know, playing football or some other sport, regardless of how good you were or how high you made it. This job that I've been doing now, five years, you know, six years ago, this wasn't on the radar, so. But I find myself doing it and at a fairly big church. And so we have sort of this, you know, regular, you know, regular rhythm of walking with people through very difficult things. You know, whether it be deaths or. Or illnesses, tragedies. And you get a constant reminder that there are lots of things far more important than, you know, even what you did as a job. It's a. It's a window into people's lives, their marriages, bringing up kids, you know, mental health issues. That just is a. Has been very. A tonic for me in regards to remembering what is important in life. And I Think, you know, again, that's something even when we were playing that we would attest to. But, you know, living it out and seeing it, you know, has been great. So, you know, it's a distinct privilege. I asked my mentor, the pastor who pastored here at Westland alliance for 31 years before me. I asked him about, you know, what do you do when you get that call that, you know, someone's died in a car accident or, you know, someone has cancer or a child has a, you know, illness. And, you know, he encouraged me and gave me some advice. But the thing I remember most is he said, now that I'm. I'm finished. He said, those are the things I value most. That in those times I walked through those things with those people, and it was just, again, an eye opener into, you know, what's important in life and things that matter significantly. And I think that's a real ballast to some of the maybe warped ways of thinking that, you know, people who make a life of sports develop and. And sort of maybe some of those things we pick up by being at the center of attention and always being in front of other people. It's sort of a welcome balance to that, and I've really enjoyed it. It's been a learning thing, and it's been tough at times, but definitely feel good about where God has me and what he has me doing.

Do you feel you've found your purpose in life?

You know, I do think this is, you know, in the church, we call it a calling, and it's often referred to for people who sort of go into ministry. But I think it's true for all people that they can approach what they do, whatever it is, as if they've been called to do it. And I do have a strong sense that I am fulfilling what God has for me. And there is. There's definitely a sense of peace that comes with that. Now. There's lots of stresses and lots of difficulties. It's, you know, some weeks are tough and I don't have a ton of experience. I'm learning as I go in a lot of cases. But there is that underlying. Definitely that underlying sense of, you know, sort of doing what you're supposed to be doing. And, you know, certainly in light of, you know, all the things we've talked about in terms of retiring, I think that's a. That's a great help. You know, one of the things I have been thinking, but actually this week, because I had a chance to speak earlier this week to a group of seniors in Woodstock Is, you know, we talk to people and tell them to do what they love. And to be honest, I actually think we've got that the wrong way around. You know, I think what we should tell people is to love what they do, what you do. And it could be the most menial job in the world, and it maybe isn't what you thought you were going to be doing, but you can make a decision to take it seriously and to do it with honor and to do it to the best of your ability, and I think can find great satisfaction in doing that.

Something so fulfilling about doing something very well as well. And what would you now, you know, you're in a different place in your life. What is your greatest fear now?

Wow, that's a great question. You know, I think what would weigh on my heart the most would be my children. You know, I can. Nicole and I, I think we can. Could handle, you know, anything that sort of happened to us and we would work through that. But as we think about our children and the lives that are ahead of them, I think that's where I'm most tempted perhaps to be fearful or to worry. And so, you know, it's interesting, that lesson I learned personally from my own life and in regards to my faith, I'm. I'm relearning for my kids. You know, I have to. I have to trust and have faith that God's going to take care of them as well. And so I would say that would be what. What weighs on me the most these days.

I can relate to that. Obviously, with having five kids or a blended family as well, the. That's probably nightmare number one. The thought of something happening to them is just.

Yeah.

And until you're a parent, it's really, again, you mentioned it earlier, Kari, that yeah, until someone has kids, it's just.

Something you can't understand. Do, do you have. Do you have an idea of what you want your legacy to be? Is it your kids that are your legacy? What does that look like for you?

You know, one of the things sort of philosophically with my new job here in this vocation that I have as being a pastor at a church that I think really has become a really a life aim or a life goal that I would have would be to be found faithful. I think we often look for and want people to see us as fruitful, as productive, as having made lots of money and accomplished great things. But as I think about it, in regards to my work at the church, but in life in general, I want to be found Faithful. I want to be found a faithful husband, a faithful father, a faithful friend that I have, you know, sort of done the things that I've been called to do and done them well. Certainly having the kids coming along and seeing the impact of being part of a family and them growing into adults now and moving on in life pretty quickly. Here you see the legacy that you have from that perspective. But I'm okay with, you know, not doing great things per se in the eyes of the world and not getting recognition for them and never being on TV again. But I think when it comes down to it, I want to be found faithful in terms of, you know, what I've been given and what God has made me a steward over. That whenever my last breath comes, I hope it can be said of me that, you know, I was faithful.

That's fantastic. That's beautiful. How. There's going to be a few little questions here I want to finish up with. But before that, this is just. Is there something about you that most people don't know? Something unique, something quirky? Is there something interesting about you that you'd want people to know that most people wouldn't know about you?

That's a great question. Well, here's a little thing. You know, people might get a kick out of, you know, as. As big and as strong as I was. And I think even by standards now, I'd still be considered a fairly big and strong guy and did work that was, I guess, considered manly and, you know, physical and the rest of it. I get petrified with horror movies and I literally am the guy who, if on the rare occasion someone talks me into watching a. Even some thrillers are too much for me. I'm the guy who will, you know, put my. Literally put my hand over my eye and peek through the cracks between my fingers because I can't give you a.

Good romantic comedy or good.

Give me the action and the explosions. But anyway, so there's. There's something funny about me that most people wouldn't know.

What.

What's the scariest movie you've seen then?

Oh, you know, I.

Or seen through the cracks of your hands?

The. The ring.

That's one that I've watched. I haven't watched many, but that one scared the.

And I don't even know how much of it I watched because I just couldn't take it. But I've tried a couple times since then. Like, no one in my family gets rattled the way I do, you know, so they asked me and I just. I pretty much don't participate, but I just remember the ring as. I don't even know I watched it.

My. My problem isn't watching it. It's after I watch it. And I admit I'm scared. I am scared.

Yeah.

It's what my mind does to me that night when the house is quiet or I go out in the dark backyard that. That's when I'm in trouble. So I know not to watch those.

Movies because I can prank you guys so hard. When it's Halloween, I could prank you guys so.

Well, I am so susceptible to that.

Oh, that's great. Do you, do you still work out, Jude?

I do. I get out. We try to get out through three times a week and lift a bit of weights and get on a treadmill, play hockey once a week. I'm much more likely, you know, I just sort of came off a three week, didn't get into the gym. It's a lot easier to take excuses and not go into the gym now. But I've tried to sort of maintain things. I remember actually bending over to pull a bag of. Of topsoil out of my trunk. I remember I had to brace myself and I had to. And like, I used to throw those things around like they were pillows.

Yeah.

I thought I gotta, I gotta at least be. Be able to, you know, do some household chores or something without grunting and groaning. So I could probably. Well, not. I could probably. I could definitely do better than I am now, but trying to. To do some. Anyways.

What's a really small thing or action that has had a really big impact on your sport or life or relationships? What's the little thing that you could give people advice on that really has big impact?

Never stop learning. You know, somehow that connected with me when I was playing football and I think it got me over the hump when physically I started to be not as good as the guys trying to take my job, but because I was willing to continually learn, I think I was able to sort of stay ahead of them and pick up new techniques. And maybe I couldn't just use brute force anymore, but because I was willing to learn, I could learn a different technique that would help me in different situations and, and then, you know, transitioning first to teaching and now to pastoring. I think sort of the willingness to be a lifelong learner was instrumental in that. And I think that would be something for everyone just to take that posture in life that I'm going to keep learning and see what I can do.

Yeah, that's fantastic advice.

Yeah. Do You. I'm gonna hit you with a few fast questions before we wrap up. Do you have a favorite food?

Sushi and steak.

Oh, I thought you were gonna say poutine. Okay.

I mean, I wouldn't. I've never said no to poutine, so. But, you know, I think those other two. More affordable, I guess. I know I can go and get that almost anytime, but going out for a nice steak dinner or going out for a nice sushi dinner special?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And favorite movie?

Oh. Gladiator, Open Range Tombstone, Braveheart. How about that?

Nice. Nice. And then Stone.

That's a classic.

Yeah.

Do you have a.

Do you have a favorite book?

You know, I would say the Lord of the Rings. That trilogy I've read numerous times. Love it. And from my English teaching, Macbeth. I enjoy Shakespeare plays, and I think Macbeth's my favorite.

Is that the Three Witches?

Yes, it is.

Oh, you guys. Here we go.

And do you have a favorite hobby?

You know, I still love doing outdoor stuff. So I like to fish, I like to hunt, and don't get to do it as much as I used to, but still love getting in the outdoors and doing those things.

And do you have any specific tips to young upcomers in football? Any young guys that are just looking like they might have some potential and they're looking to make the next step? Any tips for them?

You know, one of these things, and I think kids always think that someone put me up to this. But the thing that will stop most football players in their career is doing poorly and educationally with football more than any other sport, really these days, if you want to have any hopes of playing professional football, you have to go to college or university.

Yeah.

You know, one of the things that I saw in coaching high school football was how many good football players who had an opportunity to play four more years of football but couldn't because they didn't get the grades they needed. You know, one thing about football, there's no. There's no over 40 men's league for football.

Yeah.

When you're done playing football, you're done playing for life. And so I tell young athletes this all the time. You know, do what you have to do educationally so that. That's not what stops you. You know, if it turns out that you can't play at that next level and you gave it all you have, that's good, great. But if it's because you were skipping class and you don't get an opportunity to pursue that, I think that's, you know, that's a shame. So that would be, you know, one of my main things and I'm a big proponent. The other thing when I get this, asked this question is play as many different sports as you can. It drives me crazy how focused and single sport Specialized. Specialized that kids get with sports these days. And I think ultimately it's to their detriment. And so try different sports and enjoy them and don't get burnt out playing one when you're 12 years old. Learn a bunch of different skills and I think you'll be able to adapt and use them whatever you end up doing.

Yeah, very, very true.

Yeah.

Now, to finish up, how can people reach you if they want to reach out to you? And is there a cause or charity? I think you had mentioned one that you would like to mention.

Yeah. So you can still. I haven't fallen out of people's minds enough so that you could still Google my name and either find me on Twitter or find our website here at the church, which is wlachurch. And that would certainly be a great way for. To get in contact me if you wanted to, for any reason. One of the charities that I'm involved with and have been Since I was 13 years old is Compassion Canada. And they're a group which helps sponsors sponsor children in primarily third world countries. And we've got, I think currently we have four or five sponsor children that our family sponsors. But I've been doing that since I was 13 years old and had the opportunity last year to go and visit a project in Ecuador and see the wonderful things they're doing in terms of providing the basic necessities of life for these families, but also in education and other opportunities. And so Compassion Canada, their head offices are right here in London and they're a great charity. And if you're interested in that, take a look at them.

That's amazing.

Well, I can't tell you how thankful we are to have you on. I really, really think that your story will make a difference for other people and so we really want to get it out there. So thank you so much, Jude, for coming on and we're really, really grateful to have you.

Well, it's been great to be here and it's been a pleasure over the last, I don't know, 10 years to get to know you guys and to have connected with you through hockey and appreciate what you're doing. And hey, I got to do an interview today because I played football at one time, so I'm feeling pretty good about things. So thanks for having me on.

Yeah, no problem. No problem. Thank you.

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Sam.