EP3 - Gavin Schmitt - Volleyball - Olympian

This is episode three of the Empowered Athlete Podcast. Let me take you back to the summer of 2008. I hadn't qualified for the Olympics again, but it was my first summer not playing for the national team. I had it off. And I got to train the entire summer with Kari on a specifically made program that was tailored to me, my injuries, my body, and my goals for that next upcoming season. And I was 34 years old. Well, the result, went back over to Turkey and won a European cup in incredible physical condition. Thank you to that program setting me up for the perfect season. Well, now you have access to the exact same thing. Hit email ksempowerconditioning.com that's KS for Kari Schneider. And get started on one of Kari's incredible online training programs. The program is tailored to you. It has video of each exercise you're doing so you know what you're doing. Your reps are laid out, the sets are laid out. You can't go wrong. Reach out now to reach your best.

We're so excited to have Gavin Schmidt on the Empowered Athlete podcast today.

I hope you know who Gavin Schmidt is. If you know anything about Canadian volleyball or international volleyball for that matter, then you would know Gavin. He's a tower of power. People see him play and they literally say, holy Schmidt, he's a beast. The guy's a monster on the court, and we're gonna learn all about his career today.

We've been fortunate enough to know Gavin for quite some time, and you'll love to hear about the in depth parts of his struggle, overcoming serious injury. Like we're talking rods in his leg. So tune in because this is gonna be a fantastic. Welcome to the Empowered Athlete Podcast, created to support athletes in their pursuit of excellence and inspire others toward their best lives. Hosted by Kari Schneider, coach to top performers in sport and life, and Paul Durden, former national and professional volleyball player. Hey, Gavin. Welcome to the Empowered Athlete Podcast. We're here with Paul Jordan.

Hey, thanks for. Thanks for having me on, Gavin.

Super pumped to have you on and to hear about your incredible career, which is ongoing in the volleyball world.

Yeah, still. Still dabbling a little bit. Dabbled a little bit in action this summer. But, you know, just as I tell people, just trying to stay relevant in a young man's world as long as I can.

We're laughing because dabbling is such an understatement for what you've accomplished thus far in your career and just what you've contributed to the Canadian national volleyball team. So why don't you give us a little insight into how you got where you are now and just tell us your story a little bit.

All right. Well, what I used to do was not dabble as much. Now I'm just doing it a little more, but. Yeah. Well, I got selected to the senior team in 2007. I didn't start playing volleyball until my senior, senior year in high school. My mom kind of forced me into it, and I got rolling, and after a couple years in university, I got selected. And. And that was really the tipping point for me from there. Once I decided that I was going to give up going to school and try to be everything I could be in volleyball, that basically consumed everything.

Before you go further, your mom forced you. How did that work out for you?

Yeah, I guess I shouldn't say forced. She twisted my rubber arm. Like, I stopped playing sports in grade 11. I was predominantly a basketball player.

Nice.

And. And then I grew seven inches. I think it was in grade 11. So walking at the same time was hard, like. Yeah, it's kind of like topple over if you try to talk to people because you have no body coordination.

Did. Did you ever try a dunking contest like Paul did?

I did. I got. I got thrown in one in grade 12.

Yeah.

And I could barely dunk, and the coach did it as a gimmick and had me dunk over a credit card. And it was like, no, it was not cool. Like, they had this big plan planned out, and he's like, no. You're like. I was like, I don't want to do it. He's like, no. I've been waiting for an athlete who can dunk to do this. I really don't want to. But. But we did it. It was quite humiliating and never considered going in another one.

Oh, my gosh. You know when. Just for those athletes out there who go through growing spurts, I can't count the number of athletes that I've seen that. That become really tall, really fast, and they go through those spurts, like, six inches in six months kind of thing. And it's like learning to walk again. You can't. You can't coordinate, you know, your upper and lower body, let alone, you know, try and do a complicated agility move. It just. It's. It's like. Yeah, it's like a fish out of water.

Oh, it's basically Bambi on ice. If you've ever seen that movie. That is just your life. You get up out of bed, and it's like everything is covered in ice, and you're on really dull shape.

Well, you remember when I first got you? That's a little bit of what I saw, but not fully, but a little bit.

Well, I was gonna say, like, you coming? You're talking about these growth spurts, but, I mean, you would have got me not long after that. I mean, it was three years after that, and I had put on no more muscle, but had gained a small amount of coordination.

You were. You were gangly and bouncy, but. But when. When we had you for back training, when the rest of the team was gone competing, the thing that impressed me the most was like, I. I've had to teach countless gangly athletes how to do the basics, basics of Olympic lifting. And one of the things that impressed me the most about you was that you were picking up the form so quickly. And I was shocked because you were one of the longest levered and gangly guys. And I was just like, this is blowing my mind. You were just like, step by step, you'd take it and you'd grab it and you'd keep going. And I don't think you realize at the time that what you were picking up usually takes athletes. You were picking it up in about three weeks, what would take an athlete three to six months. And I was really excited because you were catching onto these movements really quickly, and it was almost like your body was just at that stage that you were ready to coordinate again. You were ready to just fire in sequence instead of be, you know, awkward and blocky and choppy in your movement. So it was really exciting for me. At that point in your career.

Well, and I think, and I was gonna say those listening too, if you've never seen Gavin play, he's known internationally as simply one of the highest hitting attackers in the world. Bottom line, just absolutely flies. And you're what, Gavin, 610? What are you officially?

I don't know, 2 meters and 8, or 2 meters and 9. Like the amount of times we ever actually get measured, but it's around like 6, 9, 6, 10.

So, yeah, so you're a big guy, and you've taken that training and coordination and translate into a big jump as well, which is just, you know, phenomenal to see it on court. And, yeah, I've gone from dunking over credit cards to dunking over an atm. Really. Like, I mean, people need to understand that the way you're describing yourself, they're imagining a bean pole who can't walk. But to see you now, it's a completely different thing. So.

Well, that's pretty Much what I was. I mean, credit to Kari for being able to train Gumby how to Olympic lift, because you'd pretty much assume he would just crumble under the bar. But actually, funnily enough, that that's like, one of my fondest memories of our time together, Kari, because I remember the team left and I was ever so. I was devastated. I mean, I shouldn't really be because I'd only been with the team for like a month, and they're just kind of like, yeah, you're not coming on this trip. But I remember trying out and you're like, yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna power clean. I was like, I do not know how to power.

Yeah.

I basically just had to pick up the bar and put it on my shoulders. There's no weight. But I remember going through, through that one on one training and, and, and picking it up really fast because you taught really well. And I'm also a very visual learner. So you were able to present it in, in a way where I could see it. If I could see someone do something, I can recreate it fairly easily. Whereas if you gave me like a manual on how to do it, it probably would have taken me eight or nine months to figure it out. But that training coupled with what we did, Paul, you were touching on me jumping high because I didn't. And then Alexander Gomont Cassius, Alex, I saw him in Greece when I signed pro that year, and he's like, I remember you from the summer and then you came out to Greece. Like, he goes six months later, he's like, and you were flying.

Yeah, yeah. So it's just the right stimulus. Yeah. I mean, it's a combination of so many things. Right. But. But you just needed your body was ready for that stimulus and to give people a real visual. You know, you just learned that Gavin is 6, 10 ish. Well, I'm lucky if I even get close to 5, 5 ish. So when I'm demoing something for him, if somebody had a, you know, sneaky video or something, it would be hilarious to watch.

Yeah. If only we had like smartphones and iPhones back then and we could have had all that, eh?

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Maybe. Maybe I'm happy we did because there'd be a lot more footage from me.

I know, I know. That's the thing. Yeah.

And Gavin, so obviously some credit to Kari there, but there had to be something about her workout. She hated something in the gym you.

Didn'T like so well, I can't believe you're going there.

Let's give her a just reality here. I've got my short list.

Okay. This is my story because you guys had asked if we had any good stories and I'm pretty sure I hated you until that point when we did one on one training. And it's for one reason, because my very first day on the national team, I am scared because I never did a junior national team nothing. We sit down in your gym and me and Dav and St. Pierre were stretching and both of us had never done any national team stuff. We have no idea about protocol. And you call us in and you say, yeah, what do you weigh at the time? I think it was like 80, 188 pounds or something. Like I was. No, yeah. She said, well, you're not sure. I said, well, I checked my weight at the trial. She said, we didn't. Didn't weigh in? No. Like we didn't know, like, well, the scale's in there. Go take your shoes off and go weigh in. As we went and weighed in, then we came back and said, you're late, you're fine. Find us two dollars for being late. Even though we were in the gym, we just didn't know anything. And you find. I was like, I hate this lady. Immediately. I decided at that point I was like, this is, this is the end of it. But then we got to spend time together and I got over it pretty fast. That is like today I still tell people that story of my first day on the national team and how terrifying it was getting fined for me.

I don't even remember that. But you know what, you know what I, I do remember though, like, Chris Wolfenden had come up with the crybaby jar.

Yeah.

And it was really strict because I don't know if you know the backstory behind that jar, but yeah, I do.

Yeah.

Like he was, he. There was a big paradigm shift over how hard everyone was going to be in terms of their mindset and focus because Olympic qualifier was on the line and he was coming back from injury and you know, it was one of those push hard days and he started to mentally break down and he made the decision that day to come back with a jar and everybody was sticking to it, but it made everybody more accountable and more strict with each other. And that's what you stepped into. Unfortunately.

Unfortunately, just an unbeknowing, like, doe eyed young man who just is scared. I'm pretty sure I just saw Paul walk over and pick up a toy 20 pound medicine ball with one hand. Walk through the gym, and I'm just, like, terrified of everything around me. Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, hey, to segue from that paradigm shift in the mental attitude that Kari just mentioned with the jar. A second ago, you mentioned that you'd just been with the national team for a month, and you were upset about not traveling with the team, which tells a lot about you right there in that statement that you want to compete, you believe you should be there, you want to be in the action. So where did. Where did that come from? I mean, this is, you know, you're feeling that your first month with a national team, brand new, where a lot of people might just be happy to be there. Yeah, you want to be traveling. So where did that come from?

I don't know. To be honest, I've. I think I've always had that. I've just been ultra competitive in pretty much everything I did. I'm sure a large portion of it is growing up with an older brother who's bigger than you and stronger than you. And all you have to do is always try to. To catch up to them and maybe one day be better than them at something. And that's what you want all your life, is to be better than your big brother at some point. And I think that just kind of groomed me into being super competitive because my mom enrolled us in sports young. As you can see, she's pretty much to thank for my entire athletic career. Moms always know. But, yeah, I'm pretty sure it came from that. And. And then, you know, I was happy just to be there. But the thing was, I was never content with just being there. I wasn't frustrated that I wasn't on the list per se, that they didn't pick me. They didn't say, oh, he's so good. He needs to come. I was frustrated that I wasn't good enough to go or. At the time, you know, I understood that, you know, I was. I was new, I was raw. Probably it made sense that I shouldn't be going, but I was still upset with that, that I wasn't good enough to be going. And so that's what just kind of fueled me and. And kept me going. And I've kind of carried that through my career rather than thinking I should be going and having it. I guess maybe coming from like an ego standpoint, anytime it didn't happen, it's like, it's a blow to my self esteem in a way where it's like, you're not good enough to be going. You better get to be Good enough to be going on that trip or to be starting or to be doing something rather than thinking, I am good.

Most. Most people who are driven enough to make national teams or go as far as you have, have little rules that kind of define happiness or define success. And it's those kind of things that say, well, I'll be happy when I get to travel, or I'll be happy when I get selected for this, or I'll be happy when I earn this. And ultimately, for a lot of athletes, it leads to this never ending search for success or search for happiness. And you're describing a little bit of that in what you're feeling there. What is your definition of success? Maybe now versus then, or what is that like for you?

That's. See, you said it right, right as you were talking about that. For me, it never ends. It's a continuous loop because you set these small goals and you achieve them. Okay, I'll be happy if I win this league. And then you win it and you're like, well, but I could have won that league. That league better. And you always find something more. Yeah, it never. You'll never become a lot of people or myself, I would. I'll never be completely satisfied. Finish fifth in the Olympics. Well, you know, we could have finished third or finish first or something. You always find something more.

Mm.

So I understood that fairly early. And I made the conscious choice, whether I fully believed it or not. I voiced it like this, maybe I guess, try and trick myself into believing it, that my definition of success was going to be instead of what I necessarily accomplished on awards or on paper or on anything like that, more or less kind of what legacy you leave. In a way, I just wanted to do everything I could within my career because there's so many people that would kill to play professional volleyball or that would love to be a professional athlete or get paid to do anything. And I just decided that I was going to try and convince myself that success was measured in being successful within my means and having a successful career and giving it the most that I could. And then. And then that would be classified success because no matter what, I would always find something more that I would want to achieve or something more that I'd want to win or something more that I'd want to do better. And I still do. Like I'm. As an athlete, I'm such a perfectionist. If I finish a game and I don't hit a hundred percent, which anybody who knows volleyball is pretty much a pipe impossible, I'm fairly Upset with myself, like, well, I could have killed that ball and that ball. If I did this, I'll go through everything and I'll be upset with myself even if other people think I did absolutely awesome.

And in that, facing those questions of, Especially when you're faced with injury, because one of the questions I have is about legacy. And you really, you dove into that without me asking. But in having your legacy be that you've really given all you can to your career and given all you can to your sport. But then that begs that situation where you're continually drained, you're continually spent, you're continually giving for the team or the country. If you're playing national team and you're that commodity constantly, and then you're injured, and then it comes down to that, that question of, well, you know, can I still be happy if I can't play, if I can't contribute, if I can't give? Or another question of, you know, how much is enough? If I'm continually giving, how do I replenish myself or fill my own cup so that I can still be a partner or be, you know, a son or a teammate or somebody else in the world is a different role than a professional player or a national team player.

That. It's funny because I've, I've definitely toed that line. Like, I mean, I gave two shins again, for anybody listening who doesn't know, I've had two tibial nailings done, which is where they hammer a rod down the center of your shin due to stress fractures. And I've had it on both legs. And I, I've told that line where, how much is enough? How much is too much? Because they've. I've played on them healed and I've played on them unhealed, and I've played on them healed and then re injured. And, and honestly, what's that like?

Describe to people what that's like, because that's like, you know, you seem like such a positive guy outwardly, and you're, you're so polite and you're so, you know, present when you're speaking with people, but when you're on your own and you find out that it's that bad again or that you have to play and, you know, you're not ready, like, what's that like for you?

Well, the two stories I give, I mean, to sum it up first, really well, is it the dark? Most people, I mean, you can assume that would be dark, but when you, when you wake up in pain and you go to bed in pain. And that just becomes. When pain becomes your norm, it takes you to a very dark place. And then you start masking that pain with Advil, anti inflammatories, painkillers, whatever, whatever it is you need to perform or play because you're in a big tournament. Those affect your body, affect your hormones, and affect everything. And the darkest, really unhealthy it is. The darkest place I've been in have been due to pain and covering pain with those. And the only surmountable amount of joy that I get in the day is when I'm on court and I kind of block out that. Just do what it is I'm doing this for. But then the rest of the day becomes a lot, a lot darker. But the two, the two, the two kind of. Well, I guess kind of three instances were the whole lead up to Rio for me. I kind of got to a place where I was able to manage my, my left shin, which kind of hadn't healed properly, but I was in a, I was kind of in a good spot. And then the right one goes and, and I, I get surgery in January and I miss the qualifier and the guys don't do it and I'm injured. So. If you want to talk about a dark place, Paul, you know, because you at the Olympics and you've tried many times and when you watch go out the door and you're not able to help it, it'll stink you real low, real fast.

Yeah. I know personally who I was and you know, until recent, recent history, who I was was Paul Durden, volleyball player and nothing else. I was so one dimensional. And so being injured and not being able to be 50% of that or 80% of what I felt I should be, it was incredibly dark because it's, it's who you are. You're nothing. I see myself as. I can't show anyone in the world that I can do anything positive because I can't perform. And you said there's in a CBC interview about being on the couch watching that qualifier, not helping the team, that you felt like you had let the team down.

Yep.

That's where you were mentally, which I find, and I'm sure people listening would find amazing in that. Here's a guy who has pushed it so hard that his body is broken and he still feels as though he has let his team down and hasn't been able to help them qualify. So, yeah, keep going with that if you don't mind. And just.

Yeah, so basically my, I mean, my leg wasn't completely broken. So the idea of playing still could have been possible, but I could have ended up with the Kevin Ware injury and a snap leg, which would end my career. So, all in all, right, decision not to play. But, you know, when you know you can do something and. And watching it, my feeling is if I was there, it would have went different, and it could have been better, even though, honestly, I was in no condition to play. But in my head, that's what I'm thinking. That's what I'm going through. And. And then. And I just watch, you know, the. The Olympic dream slip away, and we don't really know when the last chance qualifier is. All I know is that I have a surgery the next day, that I'm getting a rod put in my shin that took me six months to recover from the next day. And I just started to think, like, I was sitting on the couch, basically. You could picture it lifelessly, like, I was staring blindly. I was shook completely to my core. And I have a buddy who. I was out in Vancouver to get the surgery, and I know him from my high school days. He was out there, and he happened to just be over there. He lived there, and he came over to watch the qualifier with me, and I was sitting there, and he just kind of turned to me. He's like, man, it's okay. And I didn't respond and said, dude, look. And I had rented a nice apartment because my mom was coming to help take care of me. He's like, look where you're staying. You're in a beautiful, like, apartment in Vancouver. You're in downtown Vancouver. You got friends. You've got, like. You're not poor. All, like, you've got a good life. We got a good life. No problem. That's done. You're gonna get surgery tomorrow. You're gonna get healthy, and you're gonna qualify at the last chance qualifier. I know it. And snapped me out of it, like, real quick. He just kind of talked me out of probably one of the darkest places I was. I was in. And it just took a little bit. Just took someone there to see that. And without that, you know what? My whole mindset, going into surgery and the recovery probably would have been way different, because the way I was feeling was like a shell of a human. Like, it was like your soul got ripped right out of you, and you just had nothing left in you.

It's so. I think sometimes it's so hard for people to understand because a. First of all, I mean, I've seen this over and over again when it comes to injuries and recovery, that unless the mindset, unless the preparation before the surgery is in a positive space or in a productive space or progressive space, it really, really hampers the recovery. There's that element, but what you said earlier, in that there's all these amazing things around you, and you were fortunate enough to have somebody persistent in pointing them out, pointing them out and being there with you and just kind of like, come on, buddy, I got you. You know, I got your back kind of thing. And I can say that, you know, like, Paul has gone through this type of thing. And it. When. When you're in that dark of a place and you may be depressed and you may have such connection to one identity, and not an identity as, you know, a member of society or a son or a partner or whatever, but just so much of a connection to the identity as an athlete that you can't see those other things. Like, it literally doesn't exist in your mind. And Paul can speak to what that's been like and have so many amazing things around him, but he can't see. All he can see is that he feels a certain way or, you know, just that loss of identity.

And, you know, one thing in there that you didn't mention that weighs on it is you never stop thinking about people's expectations. So all of that's weighing on. And your lack of identity and your lack of. Of connection to people. And then. And you think of what people expected me, and that makes it just tenfolds worse because that's where the feeling of, like, letting people down comes from. And again, Paul, I think you were about to speak. Sorry for cutting you off. That you probably felt all of that as well. Yeah.

That you nailed it. That's a huge component of it. I remember people who don't know my story tried to qualify for the Olympics four times and failed each time. And it was. What made it so bad was how I felt as though I'd let down all these people who'd volunteered to support the national team. I always think of John Blatcher, who was on staff of Volleyball Canada, but just tremendously underpaid for the passion and work that he put in. I felt like I was letting down all of those people and their expectations. And it just absolutely magnifies everything and puts under a microscope and incredible that you had your friend there to put you through that gratitude exercise of just what can we be thankful for here? Isn't that bad. And just amazing timing. And if you could, could you and just to explain to people what's happening at that time in your life. So the national team has a chance to qualify for the Olympics right around Christmas, January 11th.

Right.

I had the unfortunate displeasure of calling that match on cbc and the team failed horribly. It was a great chance to qualify, but finishing where they did in the tournament, they did gain a spot to this last chance qualifier. And the way it works in international volleyball is there's the different zones in the world, the winners of those zones qualify for the Olympics and the second potentially third place teams or all in, in one last tournament to try to grab a spot, which you guys went to in Japan and you actually played in. So could you maybe take us from that low of not qualifying in Edmonton? The team you're on the couch through that six months of, you know, your recovery, what you're focused on, how you kept it positive. There had to have been setbacks in there to the qualification itself.

Yeah. So from there, as Kari said, that was able to unshake me, I guess is a good way of describing it, because I was completely shook. Like I said, it just felt like my soul had been ripped out of my body. So I get surgery the following day on the 12th. And what I thought was supposed to be, you know, Olympics are in August, so January to February, February to March, March to April, April, May, May to June, June, July, July, August. I have seven months to fix this injury, which really should be enough time. And I wake up that day and I, and I do the math and I'm like, well, what I should have seven months to do. Our last chance qualifier is in May. I have four months to, to get it done.

There's always a push timeline for, for anything national team.

It is. And, and you know what? Like it, it. Well, as I continue with the story, four months was not enough, but, but it kind of was. But it wasn't.

Yeah.

So I got the surgery. It was successful. Same surgery who did my other leg. So I knew him very well and, and started the recovery process. I mean, you're a couple, you're three, three to four days, bedridden, popping heavy painkillers, trying to, you know, when you, when you bash your shin against the coffee table, like a hundred, but it's from like knee to ankle.

Oh God.

That's what it feels like for just a couple days. Your body kind of adapts and then it starts to settle down and you can start putting pressure on. So I got set up with a facility out in Vancouver called Fortias, actually an amazing place. If you guys ever get a chance to go out, go check it out? Really amazing people. Integrated staff between strength and conditioning, hydrotherapy, which is underwater treadmills, huge strength and conditioning. Physios, massage, chiropractors, like, everything in house, and it's integrated, so they all know what everybody else doing. And I got set up with one of the top physios there to discuss a recovery process. And he's like, you know what? I think we can get it done. Four months. I think we can do it. So, I mean, I leave feeling pretty upbeat hearing that someone else thinks that. That we could do it. He's like, I wish we had more time, but we don't.

You need that. You need somebody else's belief, because it's not enough with just your own. You need somebody else's belief, too.

It was. And you know what? He was like, I think we can get it done. Like, no guarantees. Like, we. We should have more time. But if we do this, this, this, we do hydrotherapy three times a week for physiotherapy twice a week. We get you on a good strength and conditioning program. You got a shot. You know what? You got a shot, and you should be going back pretty good, and. And you have a chance. And so basically, at that moment there, once he said that, I just hunkered in and said, okay, I'm just going to work my ass off, do what I need to do, do all of the right thing, give myself every possibility I can to get there. And that includes just, like, staying positive, understanding there's going to be minor setback, and just like. And just working and just being. And I like work. That's the thing about me is, like, I'll go out and work in my garage and work for 12 hours. Yeah. So I like the work. I like the practice. That's why. That's why I think I'm still going. So that was. It was actually, in a way, kind of fun because, you know, when you're first learning a sport or first learning things, you make huge improvements and the sport becomes tedious once you get up there and you're like, you're working super hard to make minute gains.

Yeah.

So you're going through that whole, like, process again. And so you know what? I was happy. I was walking in every day smiling and just working really hard. Even some of the people like, how are you so happy every day? Like, well, I can't really control it now. Like, I'm doing all the right things. Gonna work or it's gonna not. I'm just gonna, you know, get through the day.

It's such an amazing recognition to know that you can't control all these other things, but what you can control is just how you present yourself to the world, how you are.

Yeah. So what is. What is being grumpy? How is that gonna get me healthy any faster?

Yeah.

Coming in here being all, like, sad face the clown and just, like, moping around here, like, half ass and everything. You know what?

I'm just.

That's. That's the way I do things. And I think that's why I've gotten through as many injuries as I have, because I've just always taken it that way as a. As a project, as a task, and I'm going to undertake it and do the work. So, long story short, it healed. Bone healed. I got back to training. No pain. And when I was saying I was going to tell you about another low point was right before the qualifier in May, we had an exhibition series with Australia, and I jumped weird. And it broke again.

Oh, God.

Like, two days before we're supposed to start the tournament. And I knew it. Like. And that's another moment that you were. You were talking about earlier, where just immediately in a dark place, I had them sub me out, and I went and sat in the corner by myself. My physio came up real quick. He said, you okay? And I just said, no, it's broken. And nobody talked to me for probably a day because they just knew not to. They could just see on my face that I was gone again.

And Gavin, can you quickly explain when you say broke just again, viewers.

Yeah.

The audience may not be clear on what you're talking about here and what's happening in your shin.

Correct? Yeah. Yeah. So not broke. Broken all the way through. So what it is, is I was dealing with stress fractures, so having a pretty vivid black line fracture across the anterior side of your bones, the front side of your shin bone. But when you look on an X ray, you'll see the whole bone, and then you'll just see like a black line almost kind of like halfway through the bone. Right.

And so. And so people need to understand that without the rods in there, if your leg was to actually fail with those stress fractures, it'd be a complete fracture. Tib fibula.

Right? Yes. So. So I was lucky. I had the rod in there and kind of sat down and just said, okay, well, pain I can handle. I've been through pain before. I've been through the pain of the surgery. We looked at the schedule for the tournament for, like, 35 max sets. Can you do it? I said, well, I don't really have a choice. I got to do it. And so I just kind of mustered it up and again started taking, like, Advil and stuff and powered our way through that. And thankfully, it ended up on a. On a positive note because, man, would that be. I probably would have been in a very bad spot had I gone through all of that and still not qualified.

Yeah. Yeah. You can appreciate because, you know, in this moment, you know what you went through for that. And you can appreciate because I'm sure that Paul has it in his consciousness right now, the qualifier that he played in when he came back from micro fracturing surgery in his knee, and he came back too early to play in the qualifier and then didn't qualify.

Yeah, I can. I can only imagine Paul could probably tell you even. Even better how that would feel, because it's just what people don't realize with injuries is they think that it's a break, you know, oh, you're not playing the sport. It's a break.

Go on, please, go on.

Like, people are just like, oh, you know, you had. You had six months off from. From the sport. It's. You know, why. Why are you feeling so tired? Yeah, it's so much harder to rehab and rebuild what you've lost.

Yeah.

Like, the energy and mental fortitude and mental energy put into every. Every day is so exhausting. It's wild and. And you end up coming back more exhausted than you would be if you were just playing that entire time.

Yeah. Yeah.

That is such. It's such an important point. It's something that unless you're in it, you can't understand it. And I think for myself, personally, I would go into quick, instant depression the second I realized I was injured. Not because of the pain, not because of the injury, but because I instantly knew, oh, my God, the work I'm going to have to do to get back to where I was five minutes ago.

Yeah, it's.

It's just this blow to you and to your motivation that, yeah, you have to quickly find it again. But it's demoralizing.

It's demoralizing. Like, you lose in the blink of an eye, as most injuries happen in that, you know, there's. I mean, there are wear and tear ones, but the moment where you feel it and where you're like, boom, my knee is gone, my shoulder is gone, my shin is gone, whatever, it's the snap of a finger and you're just like, I just Lost six months. Like you can usually process it in your head and you're just like, I just lost six months of time and I just lost all of this muscle in my leg. Because you get surgery and it all atrophies.

I was just gonna say, if you had to go under the knife at any of the points that either of you, because you've both had multiple surgeries, when you go under the knife, that simply presents a whole slew, a whole nother layer of recovery that being anesthetized and recovering from just getting cut open adds to the whole procedure. It's different than having. And not to minimize any other injury, but say there's an ankle sprain and it was something that you had to recover from. But surgery in and of itself presents a whole nother layer of recovery that the other injuries don't. And. And then there's the point that's just big being drawn out here and that is that people don't realize that high performance athletes, the best of the best, are at the unhealthy end of the spectrum when it comes to overall health. You know, you think of fitness and you think of athletes as being healthy and all of this, but it's so far from that, such, such the extreme and you guys felt and feel this that you don't. You're never in a healthy zone. I'm quoting here. Air quoting. You're never in this healthy zone because you're constantly being pushed to a zone that is barely physically manageable.

Yeah. So you're. You. I mean, we perpetually live life on the edge of completely breaking down and high performance because that's what you need to live in order to be. I mean, there are people who do it who don't care about being at the top or being at their very peak. But if you want to, you're. You're dancing that line between blowing everything in your body on one jump. Yeah. And being wrapped up like a mummy to playing your best at sport. And the other thing that people don't mention with surgery is you never come back 100%. You can get back. This is my own theory, so I should preface that. You can get back to 99%, but there will always be at least one little percent or something a little bit of range that you've lost that you used to have, or a little bit of scar tissue that just causes a little bit of. Even just like tingling or something. As soon as you're slotted to have a major injury or a surgery, you never get back to 100%.

You know what's interesting, like, this is where I. This is where I might disagree a little bit, but I completely agree with you with what you've gone through, because that's what you're. That's what you're experiencing. And then at the same time, like, I've had this weird career of over 20 years that I don't. This isn't a good thing, I guess, but I've gotten to see so many different ACL reconstructions or ankle injuries or shoulders or you name it. Just so, so many different things. And you're bang on, right, that some of them just never come back the same. But then there's some that come back just. And many, many, like, more than you'd think, come back just as strong, if not stronger than that other side if they're rehabbed properly. Or then there's those scenarios like with Paul, where, you know, you have multiple surgeons and physicians who would just quite literally say that, you know, once you're done playing, you know, your knees are just going to be really bad or your shoulder or you're, you know, talking about how the rest of his life is going to be hampered by the surgeries he's had and whatnot. Whereas now, you know, he's. His knees are the least of his worries when it comes to things that hold him back. His knees have been probably the best. You can speak to this Paul. I don't want to. I live with you, so I get to see what goes on. But, but, you know, the knees, considering the surgeries he's had and just how hard it was to manage those knees while he was playing, you know, I know what that was like. I was helping through that zone and rehabbing some of the toughest surgeries. But now his knees are like the, the most solid part of him.

Probably no longer the Achilles heel.

Exactly.

Yeah.

The Achilles heel is literally the Achilles heel.

Yeah, I like. So I, I should mention, like, I agree with you, a lot of people, like, when I came back from my second surgery, I think I was probably jumping as high, if not higher than before. I had, like, before I had the surgery and was healthy. So a lot of times you get back and you're maybe in even better shape because you take that time off.

Yeah. You're not, you're not on court, you're off court. Finally, you're off court cleaning up movements.

You're cleaning up movements. You're no longer walking that brink. And so the knee will get back healthy or something. It's something I adopted I had a buddy who had a neck surgery, and he's like, you know what? I am fit as a fiddle. But there's just like, I used to be able to turn my head. You can't see me, but I used to be able to turn it this much, and now I can turn it this much. And he's like, I'm missing, like, 0.1 of a degree.

But he knows it. He feels it.

Yeah. He's like, it's 99%. And that only comes into play. Play like it. It doesn't really affect anything, but every so often, I'm running for a ball and turn my head, like, just one degree farther, and I'm missing that. And I noticed that in my shins. Like, you know, there's just, like, one little angle that it pinches at because of the surgery. It's not really anything that concerns anything or does, but there's always some nagging little something I. I find at least.

Which for 99% of people, they would never notice. But when you're. When you're dealing with the top end of everything, then every detail makes a difference. And that leads me to a question. What are some of the small things or actions that have had a really big impact? Maybe it's on your sport or your training or your life or even your relationships, but what's something really small that makes a big difference for some area for you?

One thing that. That I found was finding a hobby off, and I think it was in Russia that I really started kind of taking a liking to cooking.

You really needed a hobby in Russia.

I bet.

I've heard some great stories about life in Russia and not keen to get over there anytime soon.

You know what? It wasn't so bad. But, yeah, it's definitely. It's it. Especially for an athlete because we're so focused. Tunnel vision is a good way about our sport, about this. And I would come home and I would remain tunnel vision, like, okay, let's fuel, rest, sleep again.

Yeah, sleep again.

And when you. I found that hobby, which is cooking, coming home and, like, preparing meals and taking time and looking up recipes. And that's not to say I do it every night. Some nights I come home and I'm like, what can I microwave get in my body so I can flash on the couch? But finding a little bit of balance, something else that I found, like, a surmountable bit of joy in every day really helped me put my sport and just training and everything a little bit more in perspective. It's like, hey, it's not the only thing I enjoy in life.

Yeah.

For a long time you think it is.

Yeah. Yeah.

This is the only thing I love and nothing else is good.

Nothing. Yeah.

Don't you, don't you like to like, eat? No, it's crap. Yep. And then like, as you get older and start, you know, you develop relationships, hobbies, and so that, that hobby for me was the first thing in my life that kind of put that into focus. And then once you allow one in. So maybe be it a relationship, be it hobby, be it anything outside, you'll start to open up to the idea that more things can also make you happy.

You can actually be a human being.

Yeah, exactly. You know, funny how that is because I went through for so many years just like no volleyball. Hey, do you want to go to a movie? Don't like movies. I like volleyball. Leave me alone. Everybody can leave me alone. And it's like, oh, I like cooking and oh, I like having a girlfriend in a relationship and oh, I like, you know.

Yeah.

Keeping in touch with my family. And it kind of. Yeah, it just brings that human side out because you lose it so fast, which is fun. You just become this, I mean, for our robot. This Polybot.

Yes, I love that term.

Paul knows. Paul, you are.

Kari knows because she spent the last six or seven years trying to help me find out what I actually like to do. No joke. No joke. You know, there's a free day. What do you want to do? I don't know. I'm not playing volleyball.

Yeah.

You know, I literally had nothing. My, my life ended when my career stopped because I, you know, didn't build those hobbies and interests and pursuits or follow anything with any legitimate effort so that when it all ended, I had nothing.

But, but worse yet, even the little things you had, you, you didn't even want to look at. Like you, you're a self taught guitar player and you wouldn't touch the guitar or, you know, it's, it's the mourning, the loss of the volleyball.

I don't know, there's other things too.

He could work out really well though.

That's just clinging. But you know what? Like I, I do it too on days off and I, I like, I like working out, I like staying in good shape and eating well and, and a little bit I find of that is just like clinging to the past too. And when you're done, it's just like, I gotta work out, I gotta train. Because I don't know if it's like a false belief that Maybe you can make a comeback or just tying you back to that sport instead of just letting it go. And that's not saying, like, once you're done, your sport shouldn't work out. Everybody should stay in shape, stay healthy, because it's just, it's so much better for you. But like, a lot of us just like find something, the gym or something, and we dive in headstrong into it because it just ties us back to being an athlete again.

There was this point that we were back in London and Paul and I were settling in, but we're just opening the gym here in London and things were tight. We were really stretched. We had a baby on the way, or just born. I think she was just born. And all Paul could think of was, well, if I, if I get a contract, I could, I could make some money. But what, what he wasn't really taking into consideration was that he had a freaking hernia. Like, he couldn't, he couldn't do anything. He had a hernia. He was having hernia surgery from lifting so many things when we moved. And, you know, he was full on, like, dysfunctional. And all he could think of was, but if I, if I got a contract, just this kind of comeback contract, I could, I could earn some money. And, you know, because that's what he was hardwired to do. That's what he knew how to do. And I'm just thinking, well, you, you can't even walk properly. Like, what's wrong here?

Well, well, the thing is, and I'm. I'm going through it now because I'm getting closer to the end of my career than I am the start of it. But honestly, like I tell people, I'm not good at anything else. That's the only way I know how to provide for myself and for my girlfriend and for, you know, if I have kids or a family, it's so easy to go back to that because it's what we know, it's the only what we're good at. And that's how we provide. We provide by what we're good at. I watched my brother, he's a millwright. Phenomenal. And he provides for his family like that. But that's a career that could take him his whole life. We do this sport for such a short amount of time and we're expected to give that up, give up the only way that we know how to provide for ourselves and our families, and that makes it extra hard.

And the thing that happens too is that anything after that seems like a disappointment. Because you're never going to make that kind of contract again with normal day to day work that when you head back into the regular world. And so anything you're comparing to what you had as a top level player in the world is just so different. Like, it's just, it's like you feel like you're in the twilight zone. I've heard from a couple athletes because they just, they can't relate to, you know, one, one person was, her husband said, well, you know, maybe, maybe try some serving or bartending. And you know, she was a top earner at what she did in her sport. So to show up and be a server just couldn't sit well with her. And I know that Paul's felt those same things. It's just like, well, what do I do with that when that's not who I am? And it feels like such a step down and you know, it just, it all feels misaligned to where your values are, who you are and being at the top of where you were.

Yeah. And you know the old saying, do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life. Paul, if you could do what you're doing now or go back to playing volleyball, which would you pick?

Go back to playing volleyball.

Exactly. So everybody, it's simple that in your life, and we found it, but then we're forced to give it up. So how do you expect that we're gonna find the other thing that the second thing that we love, you know, and not have to work another day in our life?

And you're hit, you're hitting, you're hitting the nail on the head as to why we're doing this. Like one of the, there's a few key reasons, and this is one of the key reasons why we're doing this because people who are transitioning need support. And this is still relatable to other people out in the world who are doing their careers, who aren't athletes. But for the athletes, they need to know how to get through this and that they're not the only ones who are going through this and that there's other people out there who get them, they really get what they're going through.

Yeah, it's, you know, the amount of people that ask me all the time and it's, it's happened from the start of my career now for 12 years. Well, what are you gonna do when you're done? Well, what are you gonna do when you're done? Well, what are you gonna do when you're done?

I don't freaking know.

I don't know. And. And for a long time, I would tell those people, well, I don't know, and I don't really want to know. I have, like, my plan A, B, C, D is to be a successful volleyball player. And I'm putting all of my eggs in that basket, because also from my end, that is the only way I know to become great is to, like, not have a good. To have a backup plan. Not saying that, but I read it in a book, Forrest Griffin's book, and he basically said I was half timing as a cop and half timing as a UFC fighter. And I was. I. My plan B was so close to my plan 8. I enjoyed them both, that it was too easy to quit. And he's like, until I just stopped being a cop and just put it down. And it was plan F. Yeah. And my plan, like A through E was like, be a UFC fighter. I didn't make it. And I kind of just did that for a long time. But now that I'm getting closer to retirement, like, well, what are you going to do when you're done? I'm like, I don't know. And it really stresses me out. Like, I don't know. That's why I'm dabbling, guys. I'm dabbling.

Yeah, that's right. Keep dabbling. Keep dabbling, baby. We'll help. Help you dabble. What do you. What do you want people to know about you? That maybe one of those things that you just never get asked that you wish people would ask, or something about you that you want people to know.

Oh, geez. I've been a really open book, and people ask me a lot of weird things. Yeah. I don't. I don't know that I have. I guess just that, you know what? As. As much as I. I love volleyball, it's not. Not who I am.

Yeah.

But a lot of people who follow me or watch our games or something, they come up like, geez, you're not. You're not what we expected. We watched you play. You thought you'd be, like, really kind of mean or cocky, angry or cocky or whatever. Like, we watch you on the court so intense. We thought you'd be a really intense person, but you're a really lighthearted person. And I think it goes for all athletes. You know, we're not who we are on the court. You get in a certain mindset in order to compete, and I hate people just assuming that they know what I'm like or who I am. And Judging me as a person for how I am on the court, because it's just not really fair if you take 10 minutes and stop me at a grocery store. Perfect example. I just met. I was just at the grocery store to buy dinner and like, yeah, Schmidt, I'm a big fan, you know, oh, are you a high school volleyball player? Blah, blah, blah. Talk to him for a little bit. Go on my merry way. But I'm willing to bet that kid has watched me somewhere, and in his head, he was probably thinking, like, oh, he's gonna be really intense and scary. But just stop. Stop the judging. Like, just, yeah, if you see us, come say hi. Like, same with Paul. You know, if you watch him, you might think, who. He's a very intense person. Don't meet him. Paul's, like, one of the biggest kids at heart that I've ever met. I remember, like, Paul, when I came to the national team, was running around playing soccer for warm up, screaming at the top of his lungs, like, jumping in the curtains in the gym, just, like, having a time. And I'm like, oh, this is me.

Wasn't me.

But.

Well, it's funny, Gavin. I don't know. I think it's come across in this interview beautifully who you. Who you are. You're. You're hilarious, you're playful, you love life, you love experiences. And I think that part of you is. Is the reason that you made it through the, honestly, horrific injuries that you've had to deal with in your career and be able to come out of the darkness. Is that levity and that. That brightness that you have? I think that if people listening, you know, have dealt with injury or in injury, attitude is everything. The friend telling you what to think about to get positive, and your overall positive spirit. You talked about bringing it to 40s of, you know, coming in every day and people going, what's with this guy? Well, what's with this guy is what actually works to get you through this hell of an injury. And your spirit, that. That energy that you have that you want people to know about is the best part about you. I mean, people just love hanging out with you because you're hilarious. You know, you're going to tell jokes, mess around, prank people. That's the kind of person people want.

To be around, you know, and that's the. And that's the who you really are. That's going to be the core of what brings you through any of your transitions and what still shines through whether you're in volleyball or not.

Well, that's that's what I'm hoping for. I mean, and like you said, Paul, to get you through injuries, to get you through everything. But I find that it's just a life better live and like, keep that inner child, child alive. I mean, you're very, like, very similar to how you described me falling. When you can, when you can keep that inner child alive, people like being around you. You know, you don't take things so seriously that you're off putting. You know, you can find the joy. You can bring joy to other people's other people, and people can bring that back to you. And you have that. That's just a key for successful life because whether or not, you know, you're making a million dollars a year, at least you're smiling and you're happy, you know, you're having a good time with, with what's going on, whether it be something good or something bad, it's just trying to, trying to keep that going all the way through. Peace, love and positivity, man. I don't couple people say that, and it's pretty corny, but if you can try and keep some of those things in your life, it's a powerful thing.

Yeah, we are in full agreement. Full, full agreement. So I think that's a great, great spot to wrap up, unless there's something else that you want to add. I just, I want to say one thing about both of you, and this is that Paul was recently inducted into the Volleyball hall of Fame, and he was approached by a number of people who would tell him how much he affected their love of volleyball, or even strong statements such as that they got into volleyball because of him. And I know that's true for you, Gavin, in that there's so many people that just fell in love with seeing you play and fell in love with the game because of seeing you play. And that's something that, you know, both of you, I think, can relish and not take for granted and just understand that you've had such a huge impact on other people's lives. And I know that both of you are so, so humble that that's not something that you can see, that big, big, huge impact you have on other people's lives. But we, as all of the other people you've impacted, are so grateful for what both of you have contributed. So thank you and thank you for coming on, Gavin. And we really, really appreciate having you, and we know that this will have such a positive impact on other people.

Well, I appreciate you having me on, and I appreciate all of your kind words. So I thank you from the bottom of my heart. And I really do hope that, you know what, maybe anybody listening or anybody who hears it or hears a bit of it, that maybe it can help in some way, shape or form. Because that's really what life is about, is trying to help each other and everybody help each other through it. Because it's tough at times.

Yeah. And connection. That's amazing. Thank you so much, Gavin.

Thank you, Gavin.

Thanks, guys.

Okay, take care.

You too.

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