EP36 Harry Jones - Rugby 7s - National Team

This is the Empowered athlete podcast, episode 36. We are thrilled to welcome the captain of the Canadian Rugby Sevens team, Harry Jones, to today's podcast. Harry has played over 280 matches for Canada, scoring over 700 points, and is currently touring with the team on the HSBC World Rugby 7 Series. He's an incredible athlete, but more importantly, an incredible guy. We are so excited to have him on the show. Let's get to the conversation. All right, everyone, the 12:30 challenge, that's 12 months of 30 day challenges for the entire year. 2019 for Kari and I continues in April and this one is a special one for us. It has to do with the environment and taking care of it and making the world a better place. And the way to do that is to avoid the use of single use plastics. I personally think this might be the hardest challenge of the entire year as plastics are so invasive. They're in every part of our lives and in starting this challenge, we know it is going to be tough. So we're determined to make it happen. Here's what we're going to do. We are committing to trying to not buy or bring any single use plastics into our home. Make every effort to use something different than single use plastic. And if we have used any single use plastics in the month, we're going to collect it and post in the group a picture of everything that we use just to get a feel of what's really going on. I've gone grocery shopping with Maeve recently, our youngest, and it was a massive challenge looking at things that we could buy that didn't involve plastic. So we're getting creative with bringing our own bags to the grocery store and special netted bags for all the producers looking at things that come in glass containers or jars and anything that's tin, canned or in paper as well. So this is a massive one. Easy things that you can do, use a reusable water bottle, coffee cup, and if you do need a straw, make sure it's a metal one. So that is the challenge for April. Eliminate these single use plastics, join the group in the show notes and help us make the world a better place. Let me take you back to the summer of 2008. It was my first summer not playing for the national team. I had it off and I got to train the entire summer with Kari on a specifically made program that was tailored to me, my injuries, my body and my goals for that next upcoming season. And I was 34 years old. Well, the result, went back over to Turkey and won a European cup in incredible physical condition. Thank you to that program. So, setting me up for the perfect season. Well, now you have access to the exact same thing. Hit email ksempowerconditioning.com that's KS for Kari Schneider. And get started on one of Kari's incredible online training programs. The program is tailored to you. It has video of each exercise you're doing so you know what you're doing. Your reps are laid out, the sets are laid out. You can't go wrong. Reach out now to reach your best.

Welcome to the Empowered Athlete Podcast. Created to support athletes in their pursuit of excellence and inspire others toward their best lives. Hosted by Kari Schneider, coach to top performers in sport and life. And Paul Durden, former national and professional volleyball player.

Foreign.

Welcome to the Empowered Athlete Podcast. It is a big show today. We've got a big guest. He's the captain of the Rugby Sevens team for Canada. He's played over 280 matches wearing the Maple Leaf, scoring over 700 points, 110 tries. A veteran of the World Rugby 7 Series, it is none other than Harry Jones. Welcome to the show, Harry.

Hey, thanks for having me.

We're really excited. Yeah, we're really excited to have you here. You're about to travel, aren't you?

Yeah, we leave tomorrow. I think our flights. We're going to be at the airport around 6:45 in the morning, so straight off to Hong Kong and then Singapore after that.

Awesome.

Are the bags packed?

The bags are half packed. We had training today, so it's kind of that awkward. I can't really pack until I get those other clothes cleaned up and ready to go. So I'm almost there.

I hated that as a player, knowing trips are coming up and wanting a certain pair of shoes dry.

Yeah. For a long trip.

And it was literally put them on top of the bag and stuff them in the morning or something. But terrified. Forget them as well.

So I have, Yeah. I have anxiety every time I travel that I'm forgetting. I always feel like I'm forgetting something. I've been doing this for almost over 10 years now, I guess. So.

And if you guys were to forget something, what would it be.

Like? Like, like phone charger or, you know, something that doesn't really matter too much because literally what I do is like, okay, if I have rugby boots and a passport, yeah, I'm good to go because that's all you. Realistically, you can make do with. With a. Without anything else. So I still don't know why I still get nervous that I forget something. But I guess it's just part of it all.

You're.

You're basically a pro packer by now.

Yeah, I'm pretty good at it. I like rolling my clothes. It's just kind of a weird little roller. It's just, you know, a lot. A lot more efficient for the use of space in the. In the briefcase, so.

Absolutely. It's the whole. There's a Marie Kondo, a Kwondo or Kwondo thing going on right now.

So are you sparking joy every time you pack?

That's right. Does this spark joy? No.

No.

So. So you have. You've accomplished a lot so far in your career. Take us back to what got you into rugby. How did you get started?

To be honest, it was my two older twin brothers who originally started playing. They're two years older than me, and I was basically just trying to play every sport that they played. I just looked up to them and, you know, they're so good at everything they did. And so we played soccer, baseball, basketball, wrestling, like, volleyball, like everything. And. And then rugby kind of came. Came into the picture. In grade seven, I played with the Capilano Rugby Club and then with Rockridge High School and my brothers. My brother started it off, and then I was just kind of following in their footsteps. They were both just kind of stars of their grade, and I was kind of in their shadow for a while and. And, yeah, just trying to keep up with them, more or less.

When. When were you exposed to Sevens for the first time?

For the first. That's a funny story, actually, because we had. There was a high school Sevens and there'd be one tournament a year that you could play in, and I actually never got to play in it because there was some age grade BC in Canada stuff that I was lucky to go on. So I missed. And that was for 15. So I missed all the seven stuff in high school. And my first exposure to Sevens was actually in 2008. I went to the Wellington Sevens with a Canadian men's team.

Sorry, that was your first exposure?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Because I. In my notes, I had that. The first time you were with the national Sevens team was at the Wellington Sevens. Yeah, but I didn't realize that was your first time exposed to Sevens.

Yeah, yeah. It's crazy because, yeah, I missed all the high school stuff. And then there was the University Sevens as well, but I. That hadn't happened yet. So I was in my first year at university. I remember the day I was walking to anthropology class and I got called by the The Canadian coach, and he basically asked if I was, if I was able and willing to fly to Wellington. And you know, a few weeks from that point and, and I just turned around, I didn't even go to class. I just went home, called, called my dad and I was just so excited. Like I'll never forget the moment. So it was. And yeah, I went on the trip, didn't play too much, got a couple minutes in each of the games and it was just, you know, I was just kind of just star struck a bit, you know, deer in the headlights almost with, you know, it's just back then, that Wellington tournament, I think they sold out. I think it was a 50, 000 capacity stadium and they sold out that year in seven minutes online. So that's how. Yeah, it was crazy. It was crazy. And so I just kind of got thrown at the deep end. But it was, you know, super exciting. And I was just, you know, first year university and it was 18 at the time or something like that, so it was pretty exciting.

So for the listeners, just because, you know, sevens has become more and more popular, especially since the Olympics. But describe for the listeners the difference between sevens and fifteens, because it's such a profound difference. And this is what I think is key because from an athlete perspective, it's a different beast to play 15s and play sevens. It requires different energy systems, it requires a different level of athleticism. So describe a Sevens match and some of the differences.

Yeah, I get, I get asked this question a lot. Both, you know, which what do I like more, sevens or fifteens? And also, you know, what are the differences? And I, my view is that, and a lot of people share the same view is that sevens and fifteens are two different sports.

Exactly.

Because it's just, you know, like you said, the physical attributes and the conditioning needs and the speed requirements and all that kind of stuff. And sevens is different than fifteens. I mean, not to say you have to be, you have to be crazy fit in 15s as well. But it's just a different, like you said, a different beast. With sevens where it's, it's 14 minute games, whereas 15s is 80 minute games. And by the name, most people could probably tell in 15s it's 15 guys versus 15. 15 guys. And in sevens it's seven versus seven on the same size field. So you can imagine how much space there is, which would require guys to be a bit quicker, have a really good step and obviously have a lot of stamina to be able to go kind of full tilt for the full 14min.

And just what sport? And just this takes me back to your baseball, basketball, rugby, soccer, kind of growing up experiences. What was one of those other sports your first sport? Love or. And if so, how do you think it contributed to your ability in sevens?

Yeah, no, it's a great question. Soccer was definitely my first love. My dad's, my parents are from England. My dad's from Liverpool and he's a huge Liverpool. Still have it, still has his Scouse accent. And so I grew up watching, you know, early in the mornings, watching soccer games all the time with my dad and, and that was my first sport that I really got into from a really young age. And I didn't stop playing soccer until first year university where it was like I had to make a decision between soccer and rugby. And it wasn't really a decision because rugby was taking me so much further. But yeah, there are so many, so many attributes that transfer over foot skills, you know, and I played a lot of 15s rugby and then kind of bounced over to sevens as well. And you know, any type of kicking would transfer over from soccer to soccer to rugby and just kind of just, you know, looking for space. In soccer, I know it's a completely different sport, but you know, you're looking for space to be put through similar to kind of sevens where you're looking for that space where a guy might throw an offload or, you know, know you're trying to step into a gap or something like that. And then other sports like basketball and baseball, like hand eye coordination, just moving into the, you know, good spots. And I think overall just being, you know, any sport you're super competitive in and wanting to win, so that kind of pushes that drive as well. So there's definitely a lot of attributes that transfer over.

I just want to jump in quick. You're 29 years old now.

Yeah.

What's your ideal playing weight for Sevens?

For Sevens, it's right around like 92, 93 kilograms right now.

And how tall are you?

Six one.

Okay, so what size were you when you were 18 and playing a lot of soccer?

Um, I was, I was probably the same height. Probably just finishing kind of my growth spurt. I was probably, I mean, 18, 6, 6 foot, maybe 6 one around there. And then I was probably about like 1 91, 95. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, I guess I'll go back to kilograms. It'd probably be lower, like 80, you know, like 87, 88 kilograms. So probably about 10, 10, 15 pounds less around there. Just because I was coming out of high school still similar frame, just not as much muscle mass.

Not filled out yet.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think that's, you know, adds an extra about 10 pounds or something like that, but not, not too different.

So one thing I was going to ask just with the, now that you're a little more seasoned with some of the younger guys coming in, some of the rookies, do you see that they're as athletic as you were or as some of the older guys or do you find that they have less experience with other sports? Just not as broad of a repertoire of movement patterns and skills? What, what are you noticing with the younger guys? Or are they, you know, better than you were coming in? Like what, what do you, what do you find?

Yeah, so new, newer guys coming in. There's about a hand, probably a handful of four or five young guys that are up and comers right now. And as far as like skill set, I think some, some of the guys still need a little bit of work on the basic skills, just kind of catch, pass, that kind of thing. Which, which for me I was, you know, I was surrounded by a lot of good players and a lot of good coaches. So that kind of got drilled into me really early. Whereas I don't think nowadays, I don't think maybe they're playing as much rugby or maybe don't have as much exposure but you know, are, you know, sevens is so much more prevalent nowadays. So they, they, there are opportunities for more tournaments and you know, it is in high school and provincial levels now and it didn't really used to be.

So.

Yeah, I mean it definitely, I don't know from a more experienced guy, I definitely do. And maybe this is me just being a salty older guy, but I definitely do think that some of the basic skills can, you know, literally just catch and pass and just a bit of awareness and being more of a gamer, understanding the flow of the game that comes with time and so maybe it's, you know, I'd like to think that I had that when I came in, but maybe I'm being a little bit naive.

It's funny to hear you say as a, because you're probably not quite 30 yet.

Yeah, just shy of 30.

So when you're thinking in terms of the span of your career, are you like rugby is one of the sports that's so hard on the body. So are you thinking you've got how many more years in you playing national team? And, and here's the other question. Are you, what are your Opportunities for pro right now or are you guys centralized? What's happening that way?

Yeah, so my end goal, to answer your first question, is 2020. Originally it was 2016 and we went through a pretty rough patch with. We had a great team, but not a great coach and a poor team culture because of that. So we struggled quite a bit. I think on paper we had the best team we've ever had, but we were playing some of the worst rugby we've ever played. And so we went through a pretty tough time there and I almost called it quits after we missed the 2016 Olympics. So after that there was a coaching change and there's probably about four or five of our kind of better, like very good players decided to move on, move on with their lives. One or two of the guys went to 15s and two or three other guys ended up just retiring. So I, after that I hadn't really had a specific goal set. I decided to stick, stick around for another year and kind of see how things shook out. And we ended up having one of the best, if not the best year we've ever had. We won a World Series title, which has never been done before. And so things definitely took a quick turn in a positive way and I kind of reset my goals to 2020 not too long after. So that's kind of where, you know, whether or not my body could go longer, I'm not, I'm not too sure. I mean, you bring in things like concussions and different injuries and you know, what, what I'll be feeling like in ten years from now. So I'm fairly conscious of that. And I want to be able to do things and enjoy things after I'm done playing rugby, not just kind of destroy my body and not be able to enjoy day to day life. So I'm definitely very conscious of, uh, yeah. And then I guess plans for after. I'm kind of still up in the air on exactly what, exactly what I want to do. Um, I have a decent amount of schooling behind me and just looking at a few things in the real estate industry potentially so, which is exciting. But I'm trying to keep my focus on obviously the process towards the 2020 Olympics.

Nice, nice. Yeah, it's, it's as Paul knows and I know the, the next Olympic Games and the next quad is always a lure and something you, you just, you can't quite pass up sometimes. So it's. Yeah, it's part of the process, I guess so. So when you're thinking of your career so far, what Would you say is or are some of the, the highest points, some of the greatest triumphs? What are your peak moments that you've really, you're really proud of or, you know, you are really notable in your mind?

Yeah, I mean, it's funny because the number one thing for me is our win in Singapore. Just, just based on the fact that a Canadian seven team had never done that before. Winning a World Series title was, you know, that's other than a medal at the Olympics, that's kind of, you know, one of the best things we can do as a team. So that was a really special moment. We shared it with, you know, a great group of staff members and players. So that's something that lucky to have that for, you know, the rest of our, rest of our lives. But at the same time, you know, we want, after we won that we wanted more. And so it, you know, it's definitely a contagious thing and we've been through some ups and downs since just through our, how our program's been handled. But you know, we have, it's exciting because we have a squad that can do some really special things. So definitely that Singapore win the Pan AM Gold in 2015 was awesome just because it was at home in Toronto. Like it was just. I mean the Pan Ams isn't one of the, you know, one of the most recognizable top end tournaments, but it's, it's definitely up there. And was the fashion that we did it as well because we had a bit of a shocker.

Didn't you score the winning try in.

The, in the Argentina game? Yeah, I did. I got, you know, just right place, right time, I think in that one. But it was to get. There was an even crazier story. We almost lost a chili in the quarterfinals, which is, you know, that would have been a crazy upset. And we ended up winning in the last play of the game and the Chilean guy could have, he tried to kick the ball out of bounds and they would have ended up winning the game. And it actually stayed in. We were able to go back and get the ball. We ended up, we ended up scoring under and we had to score into the post to tie it. And then we went to overtime and we ended up winning in overtime.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah. And then we went and beat the States in the semifinals. And then we played Argentina, which was also pretty crazy finish where Nate, Nate Harriyama, our playmaker, kicked a ball like a little chip and chase for me in the corner and I ended up getting it and got over the line, which was with the home crowd kind of screaming and stuff, was a really special moment. You know, the home tournaments are so much fun, and to be able to win a medal, there was, you know, and the women's Sevens team won gold as well at that tournament. So it was just kind of, you know, a home. A home sweep for us, which was really cool.

That is just fantastic for the fans. Holy cow.

Yeah, it was awesome. It was awesome.

Speaking of those home crowds, you are just really coming off of the huge weekend in B.C. as the sevens tour made the stop there.

Yeah.

And I saw a ton of stuff online, caught a few of the games online, and the crowd looked fantastic. Now, what's been your impression of the following of Sevens, the growth of the game in Canada, specifically over the course of your career, and the exposure that it's getting? Because I have the feeling as an outsider that it seems to be gaining a lot of momentum, but maybe that was already there. I'm just ignorant to it. So maybe you could shed some light on what you've seen in terms of growth in the game.

Yeah. So growing up, you know, Sevens, you know, like we spoke about before, the Wellington Sevens with the Canadian team was my first exposure to Sevens. So it kind of shows where. Kind of where things have grown as far as exposure for younger kids to be able to play Sevens and have kind of stepping stones to get to the top level. I still think there's. Although Sevens is definitely on the map in Canada now because of that tournament and also the Women's Langford Tournament as well, both teams are doing a great job to increase the exposure of Sevens. But I still think there's. I still think there can be so much to be. There is so much to be done for the development from grassroots to, you know, kids in their early late teens and then, you know, getting into the B.C. and national levels as well. I still don't think the framework is quite there just because, you know, it's always been a 15. 15s has always been the predominant game in Canada, and now the tides. The tides aren't specifically turning, but I think Sevens has become, you know, a very realistic option for, you know, any rugby players to chase. And. And it's. It's exciting because I, growing up, I never. Sevens wasn't on the map for me. There was no Vancouver7. There was no tournament in Vancouver or Canada for that matter. And there was. There's no Sevens in the Olympics as well. So the draw to Sevens wasn't really there. Looking back on it now, If I could be 10 years younger and start all over again, you know, it's just, it's just such an exciting time right now. I see some of these 18, 19, 20 year olds coming in to train with us and you know, that's, it's a pretty cool time for them because not only do they have this opportunity to play at home in Vancouver, they also have the opportunity not to play. Not just one, you know, maybe two, three, four Olympic Games. And that, that is, I think that's the draw and that's what's going to grow the game and has already, has already definitely grown the game across Canada.

What are the, what are the professional opportunities like for Sevens as far as professional stuff?

There isn't like the World Series is, you know, the top, top level you can get to and for, and to be contracted at. There are sometimes there's one off tournaments where you could get invited and get paid, you know, a one time, one time payment for going to a tournament somewhere. But you know, all the, any, any, any teams or players that are making a bit of money would be on the Sevens World Series, which is what we're on. So you see a lot of other teams like top teams, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, those teams have contracted players that play Sevens year in, year out and you don't see a lot of any, any used to see a lot of players jumping from Sevens to fifteens and, and, and going pro and you don't see it as much anymore. One, because I think Sevens players are, have, have started to get good contracts, but also that, you know, Sevens is in the Olympics and you can't really do both anymore. You can't. I, I used to jump from sevens to 15s throughout the year. So you'd be on tour for, you know, six to eight months a year bouncing back and forth from sevens to 15s and you could do it, you could do it back in the day, but now, I mean both, both codes, Sevens and fifteens are so competitive that you need to specialize in, in both. So you're either a fifteens player or a Sevens player.

So, so sorry that, that brings me to the question of like with, with wins like Pan Am's or the World Series title, did, did that affect funding? Did you, did that increase the national team in Canada? Like what, what's happened that way?

Not really. We've been on a little bit of a roller coaster with funding and how the program's been handled, to be honest with you. So we used to have quite a bit of Olympic funding And our rankings never really changed too much. We, we had our best one was, I think we were, ended up ranked 6th place and then 9th place and we've kind of dipped down to 10th, 12th place a couple years ago and now we're right around that kind of 10th place mark. And so we lost a little bit of funding from the Olympic fund, but. And then also with this summer, it was Rugby Canada wanted to kind of centralize both programs and have kind of 15s and 7s under one roof, which in my opinion isn't, isn't the best way to go about it just because they're again, like I've said, they're two different games. So right now we're kind of going through a bit of a rebuilding phase where we don't have as much funding from the organization or outside sources as we usually do. But we're literally just now starting to see supporters come in and want to help us out financially. And, you know, our performances have started to kind of trend upwards again. It seems like every year we kind of have to hit the, we hit the restart button because of things going on outside of rugby. But I do honestly believe right now we're in, we're training in the right direction and we're starting to get some really great support from, from some people outside of the organization, which is, which is great. And I think, you know, I think it's going to be a positive thing moving forward. And we have such a, we have such a great team that, you know, I have without a doubt, I know that we can win a medal at the Olympics if, you know, we can get the, put these pieces together. And you know, it's just that in itself is such an exciting thing. So, you know, that's what, you know, that's what I'm invested and bought into for the next year and a half. Yeah, it's.

It's clear. You, I mean, a couple things you're saying are really landing with me that you believe in this group. You've mentioned more than once, different teams you've been on and you didn't want to call another team tight knit because you feel that the team now is turning really tight knit. And you mentioned the specialization that's going on. And you also quickly skimmed over last summer in the fall where you were actually outspoken and leading a protest about the way Rugby Canada was handling the sevens and the fifteens program. So I was hoping you could share a little bit of that story with our listeners. But the part that I think is really important for the Athletes to hear from you and this. And Kari and I have gotten in this conversation with a lot of guests on this show about athletes not feeling comfortable to speak up. And it could be around being injured, it could be around mental struggles, it could be around disagreement with the system, but not having confidence in their position on a team or their role or their status, and afraid to say anything that might rock the boat and jeopardize that. So you were in a unique position where you're captain, you're the vet, you could speak. Can you tell us about that dynamic, but also what the friction was about with Rugby Canada?

Yeah, I definitely think the tides are turning as far as players speaking up. You just see it happening more and more, not just on. On field issues, but also things outside like mental struggles and stuff like that, which I think is great. You know, the first step is talking about it. And on that note, I think that talking about it was one thing. And the level of communication led to a lot of the problems that we had this past summer. Essentially what happened was the Rugby Canada, the fifteens program, which I support fully, support what they were trying to do as well as they're trying to qualify for the 15s World Cup. And I love 15s and I love the 15s program. I played in the 2015 15's World cup with a lot of the boys that are still playing now. And so a lot of the focus went on to the 15s group. The only problem was that the Sevens program was kind of notified very late, basically in August, when, you know, we're supposed to start training at the start of September and sign contracts. So we found out about a massive change to the program where all players, all men's players were going to be training under one roof together, which in my opinion completely goes against, you know, being a professional player and, you know, playing either one sport, sevens or fifteens. I mean, nowadays you have to specialize like we spoke about before. So it just wasn't, you know, from a personal standpoint. I know all my teammates share the same perspective is, you know, what's the point in. What's the point in turning up if you're just training two different sports, you know, and kind of, it's almost waters things down for both, both sides of it from the 15s and the sevens perspective. So that happened. And also there were some financial implications as well, where a lot of guys lost out on some money when they were expecting to have similar contracts for the next year. So all of this happened in a very, very short period. Of time. And I do honestly believe, and we've had conversations with Rugby Canada where they have agreed that the communication wasn't there and none of the players were notified or let in on exactly what the plan was. So it all kind of came crashing down at the end of the summer and it got to a point where all the players, a lot of the sevens players were basically like, okay, well, you know, even myself, I thought I was done, to be honest, I thought I was going to retire because it just wasn't a kind of setup that I really believed in.

And, well, it wasn't conducive for success for either team for 15s or sevens. It's not conducive for success.

Yeah. And it just, you know, it did, it did. Yeah. I just don't think the focus was right and I don't think there was enough communication around it. I mean, if there had been, then we could have planned and prepared for it and maybe had got some outside help to, you know, fill some of the gaps that had been created. But yeah, it was a really tough time. And I mean, I won't go into too many of the details, but, you know, it was just, you know, we lost a few staff members and things just kind of, it just felt like our program got watered down, flipped upside down and you know, two years into a four year Olympic cycle, it's frustrating to say the least.

And it's a key, key time.

Yeah, it's a time when you want to be trending upwards, not having to, like I said before, restart at the start of the year. So, yeah, it was difficult, but you know, what it did do was it brought all the players together and we said, okay, well look, we have got to make a decision here on what we want to do. The program doesn't really scream success. So we basically stood up for what we believed and we said, look, this isn't right and we think should be a separate program. And we stood by that. And yeah, I mean, it was definitely difficult at times, especially with some of the, some of the young boys as well, who had been outspoken too about they see the future implications for themselves as well. Because, you know, for me, I've, you know, at that point I had two, two years left max to 2020. But for some of these young guys, they have another 10 years left in their careers and some of them just getting started. So it was definitely, definitely an interesting situation. But our communication and transparency was super open and we just, you know, all made a decision together and what we wanted to do and had a lot of conversations about it and basically just stood up for ourselves and said, no, look, we, you know, we don't believe in the changes and we think that these programs should be separate. And we fought for that and things have definitely settled down now a bit. And our program is back to at least our training and everything like that is back to what it was before. There's still some missing pieces financially and program wise. We're still missing some staff members, but, you know, like I said before, we're definitely trending in the right direction and I do believe it brings us closer as a group. But at the same time, you can only imagine the kind of, you know, the impact it has. You know, we had, I think the boys only. We only got two weeks of a preseason in which was, you know, which was difficult to deal with, especially the demands for Sevens. But it was, it was great because, you know, the boys, the boys didn't complain once about, you know, they rallied, they basically rallied together and, you know, got. And I wasn't on the first couple tours because I had, I just had my shoulder surgery early September. And the boys, having only two weeks of training, actually played quite well on the first couple trips. And yeah, it's just, it's nice to have everyone stick together and still around because it is such a special group. And like I said before, I think this group and the team of staff we have are definitely going places, not only in the coming games and the Olympics as well, but for years to come too.

From what you're describing, you've got the right ingredients, like a group who is tight knit, they can overcome adversity. There's just so many of the right things there. You've also mentioned a couple times about the great support that the, the team has acquired from the outside. I, I'm imagining that means some sponsorships or some boosters of some sort. What, is that what it's taken to kind of keep this team separate from 15s and going forward? Aside from what sport Canada or Rugby Canada would provide financially, is that what it's taken as some outside sponsorship?

Yeah, partly. We're still, to be honest, we're still working on that. And it has been a bit of a difficult process. But you know, some of our supporters, old rugby players, and we have a support group from Hong Kong as well that runs, you know, some group of guys, Canadian guys from Hong Kong that support us as well. Mel Reeves, who works out of Vancouver as well, has been there since day one for us and guys like Mark Wyatt and Mike Holmes, Doug Tate from UVic as well. You know, this is a group of, group of guys that have kind of rallied together and, you know, just wanted to support the program and the players financially, which, you know, in, in Canada, any sporting organization and teams and players are, you know, it always piecemealing it, piecemealing it together. It's always, yeah, it's always going to be a struggle. It's never going to be a perfect world. But yeah, we needed to look to the outside to get a bit more support because 15's seems to be the focus right now for our organization and, you know, that's their decision and that's, you know, we can't control that. But what we can control is our group and, you know, some of our supporters have stepped up and we're still not quite there, but we're definitely trending in the right direction in that category and hoping to get a couple more staff members into the mix in the not too distant future as well to, you know, something like an S and C coach in Sevens. You know, you need, you need one that is fully committed to the Sevens program. We have a great SNC coach that oversees both programs. Matt Barr. He's, he's awesome and he's really good.

Hey, guess who trained Matt Barr?

You did.

He used to be my assistant. Yeah.

Oh, no way.

He worked for me in Winnipeg and he. Well, he left bc. Well, he left Winnipeg to go to get his dream job in bc, but then he left BC to go back to Winnipeg to be with his family more. And then, yeah, he was drawn back to bc, but, yeah, he used to. So when I first opened my gym and I had been with a sport institute, he, he used to work with me.

Oh, that's awesome. Small world.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, he's, he's actually coming on this next tour with us, so we've. Because we don't have a full time S and C for just the Sevens program, we've been bouncing back and forth between a few different guys and Matt Barr is actually coming on this next one and. Which will be fun. All the guys get along with him and he's great, so. And he's definitely, definitely knows what he's talking about in his, in the S and C category, which is awesome.

Yeah. And he's, he's got a good heart too, so that always helps because he cares about what's going on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I was going to ask like, you, you've been so positive. You're so focused on the future. You, you have the belief, you have the desire, you've got the drive, and at the same time, being in it as long as you have. There has to have been some pretty solid setbacks here and there. Can you just share with us, and especially for the athletes out there listening, what have been some of your, or one of your greatest challenges.

Injury wise, would have to be. And I was kind of in and out with the Canadian Sevens team at the time. When I was at university, I had that injury. It was called osteitis pubis. It's like a pubic synthesis injury. So I had that in the summer of 2009, I think, and no one, none of the physios or doctors really knew what it was. And I didn't really get the proper scanning, so I just kept playing with it. They thought I was just gonna. My groin was tight or something like that.

Ridiculously painful.

Yeah.

So I. I played on it for another, you know, four or five months throughout the summer, and it got to a point where I couldn't really even, like, walk properly without it just being, like, shooting pains in my groin.

For the listeners, just for them to get a visual. If they think of the pelvis coming together at one point, right near crotch.

Yeah, it's.

There's a ligament there, and that particular ligament can get stuck, sprained. But when it's an osteitis pubis, it can be so much so that the ligament is pulling on the bone and just creating some really chronic inflammation from that continual pulling. But it can be from your groin muscles, your adductors pulling on the attachments of that bone, the ligament getting irritated or sprained, and any of the above. But it's. You can imagine for someone like you, all of the force from cutting or sprinting or anything like that, but then it gets so bad that you can't even walk. And by that point, like, what are you. What are you thinking? What are you feeling by that point? Like, are you feeling devastated?

Yeah. Well, to be honest with you, I remember before every game would be like, oh, I remember because, like, Nate and I. Nate, here I am, still playing on the Sevens team, one of the best Sevens players out there. He. I remember, like, before games for, like, the BC Bears, we were. I just always be warming up, like, man, my groin is tight. I don't know what's going on. A bit painful. And he'd be like, you're right. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. You get playing in the game and you can kind of get through it. And at the time I was kicking a lot too, which obviously creates a lot of shearing in the. In the groin area. So it was just. Yeah, that whole summer wasn't great. And by the end of it, it was. It got to the point where I was actually. There was actually selections for the men's senior national team, which I had been invited to, but I had to say no. I had to say no. And this is my first. Would have been my first exposure to the men's fifteens team. I said no because I couldn't. I just. My. My groin got to the point where it was like, it wasn't even a decision. I'm like, man, I have to figure out what's going on with this. So I ended up getting a bone scan. I saw Dr. Pete du Troy, New Westminster, and he. And the bone scan lit up like a Christmas tree. And he's like, yeah, you have like, it's called osteitis pubis. And you basically your pubic bone bones are rubbing together and it rubs off the cartilage and it creates this mess. And I'm at the kind of the, the, the wrong end of it. And I had three options to either get a shot of cortisone to kind of mask the pain, I could get surgery or I could just rest it. And I thought about it for a bit and I ended up just deciding to rest it just because I had a buddy who had gotten surgery and he didn't actually ever play again and cortisone didn't make sense. So I rested it and it was. I was actually off for. With no physical. Physical activity for a year. So. So, yeah, so nothing at all.

What did that do to you? I mean, there's the physical side of things. Things. I completely get that. But what did that do to you mentally?

It was definitely tough. It was. Yeah, there was definitely some dark times not really knowing what was going on. And I didn't really have any physios that I knew that well. And, and, and also that knew the injury too. So I didn't even really know how to fix it as well. So I was at university at the time. So what I tried to do is just concentrate on other things. Like I couldn't control my injury just because I had to rest. So I decided to, you know, focus more on being like a support for the rugby team. So I do a lot of the help out with a lot of the fundraisers and stuff like that. And I also just concentrated on my schooling as well, just because that was another thing that, you know, I could devote more time to. So. And I had a lot of really good friends and obviously rugby, you know, you have a great group of people there that, you know, support you too, so. But I mean, at the end of the day, you kind of have to deal with it personally. So there definitely were some dark times where, you know, I wasn't, you know, able to play and do much and I was waking up in the morning doing these weird like Kegel exercises and stuff because that's honestly, that's all I could do. I'd be like walking to class and kind of shifting all weird because I had to walk a certain way so it wouldn't like start just like kicking in the pain and stuff like that.

Well, welcome to the world of a woman who's had a child. So there you go.

People look at me so weird when I say kikos. They're like, what? What do you mean? Like you're. That's. You're not supposed to be doing those. Yeah, yeah. So that, that went on. Yeah, it was no physical activity and, and the doctor actually prescribed. I don't know if this is okay for the podcast or not, but the doctor prescribed no sexual activity for six months, which, I mean, seems crazy, but as it was at a point it was so painful that it. I actually agreed with them that it probably wasn't the best idea, so. Wow. I don't know if it was a full six months, but I definitely had to take.

Did you have a break from all girlfriend that was.

I. I didn't. So.

If you did, you probably wouldn't have by the end.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Try explaining that to someone as well your situation then you can't do anything. It was, it was interesting to say the least.

They think it's an excuse that they. That you just don't really like them. Yeah.

Yeah. Is it me?

No, it's my injury, I promise.

Yes.

Really?

That one doesn't go off very well. Yeah. So I, Yeah, it was no physical activity for a year and then I got on with an on field trainer who wasn't the right guy for me and I was kind of battling through a bit of pain with him for another six months and then I finally found a guy in Lynn Valley, Nico Nico Berg, who used to play for the White Caps, and he got me back, back into shape and got this injury fixed up. It took. It took two years at the. After all of it, it was. I think it was just shy of two years, the whole, the whole thing and. But I was able to come back and play with ubc. And I had a couple injuries right when I came back, just because I hadn't played for a while. I pulled my, pulled, pulled my hamstring and tweaked my groin or something like that, or pulled my groin. But other than that, I was back into the swing of things, which was, which was awesome.

So a couple of things there. First of all, what was the difference between Nico and the other guy that made the key difference for you?

The other guy was pushing me through pain, which he said was okay, but with an injury like that, it definitely is not. And Nico was different. Where I started with all my floor exercises and it was no pain at all, but just working the small muscles and all the muscles that support it. Because, you know, everyone thinks it's a pubic injury, but it's actually everything around it.

That hip flexor, your glute med, your.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And if that isn't firing and strong and you have all those little muscles working, working. And if they're not, then that's going to create some type of instability or imbalance. Imbalance as well. Which is exactly what causes that kind of injury.

Yeah. And I imagine that this entire ordeal, you're looking at basically two years of your life. Do you think this has really set you up for the kind of drive, vision and positivity that you have now? Had you not had that experience, do you think that you'd be able to persevere the way you are now?

I definitely think it helped. I think it, you know, there are definitely some silver linings in there that it taught me how to take care of my body and not take things for granted. And also, also taught me that you're, you're one injury away. Any athlete. I don't, it doesn't matter if it's a contact, a non contact sport, you're one injury away from being done for the rest of your life and having to retire. So it's just, you know, being in the moment and enjoying every single day. And I think, I definitely think it helped me, pushed me through other other shorter term injuries and also probably prevented a lot of injuries because I, you know, the rehab and prehab stuff is something that is part of my daily.

Regime I appreciate more now.

Yeah, exactly. And I think it, it helps you become a better athlete as well. Yeah.

Forced force, the professionalism in your warmups probably know that prep and maintenance is, yeah, becomes a requirement.

So when it comes to your, you know, we know what you want. You want a medal at the Olympics, you Know what you're going for. You're very clear. But aside from your main goal and the professionalism, what are some of the pranks, the goofy stuff, the stuff that goes on behind the scenes with the team? Can you give us a little behind the scenes story or two?

And for bonus points if it involves Connor Traynor, who in introduced us to you.

See the ones with Connor, I don't know if those ones are appropriate for. Appropriate for this podcast. But I mean, there are, there are some funny ones where one wasn't actually even on tour with Connor. Where he was on. He was on. This was a few years ago now, but because he's got a, he has a girlfriend now, so it wasn't recently, but I think it was on a Tint Tinder or one of those apps. He was on a date with a girl and two or three of the boys heard about this and actually went found him in it, found him in a coffee shop and they just pretended like they didn't know him and would sit like literally right next to. And the girl had no idea, right? They'd be sitting there. And he's just trying to hold his laughter in because he's just like two or three of his buddies are sitting around him. So there's been a few of those more recently. They call it like catfishes. And I think we were on tour and one of the, one of the guys on the team, one of the guys, I don't know if this, this might be getting a little bit out of hand, but one of the guys created a fake account or something like that and actually got one of the other guys in the team that started, started chatting fake accounts, started chatting with them and, and told him to come down for coffee in the hotel lobby. And he ended up coming down and the boys were just sitting there looking at him for a while and then came over and he started losing it. Oh, man. There's definitely some other ones that I don't know if I can, I can share for. I'll share with you guys once we finish the podcast.

That's awesome. Well, let's, let's wrap up with a few other quick questions so people can get to know you a little bit better. So if you had to give, say, a tip to some young rugby players just getting into the sport, really getting better, and they want to go further with it. What would be your best tips for those young players?

I think one of the biggest things is just to understand what your competitive advantages are as a player. Everyone has two or three things that really kind of stand out from everyone else. And I think just understanding what you can bring to a team and really just focusing on that because, I mean, at the end of the day, players aren't good at every single facet of the game. Right? I mean, everyone's pretty solid at it, but they'll have two or three things, whether they're a really strong ball runner or great at kickoffs, or, you know, they just have that X factor, kind of like Connor Traynor does. Just understanding what. What you can bring to the team and just. And doing just that. You know, our coach always says, you know, there is. There. People say there is no I in team, but there is, you know, yeah, I will do my job for the rest of the players. And I firmly believe that. For me, it's. I always try and be the fittest guy on the team and on the field as well when we're playing any other team. And that's something where, you know, I was. I was never the most. I was a pretty small, small kid growing up, so I was never the.

Most.

Was never the strongest or the fittest kid growing up. But I just said, you know, those are the things that you can control. And so one of the biggest things for me was just being. Being the fittest guy on the field, and that all that takes is some hard work. I mean, there's, you know, there's no two ways around it. If you work hard and put in the time, you. You can get fit and. And strong as well. Um, and the other thing, too, is just working on basic skills. So many times you see new guys come in and they just can't pass off both hands or, you know, some of the fundamental skills are just lacking a little bit. I think those things you can control, right? I mean, don't worry about the things you can't control. Just focus on the simple things and, and put the time in as well, because, I mean, it'll end up paying off. It might not happen overnight, but, you know, for me and for anyone listening, that's a young player. Like, I didn't just jump into the Canadian team and play every single game with the Sevens team. I was riding the bench for a decent amount of time. You know, when I was at ubc, I'd get called up here and there and, you know, I maybe get a couple minutes in each tournament, you know, so that's. It's not a lot of fun. It took me a bit of time to understand what I brought to the team. And once I figured that out, I really just worked hard at it, and everything else ended up taking care of itself.

All right, I want to steal a question that Kari might ask. You mentioned that you want to be the fitness guy, fittest guy on the team and on the field. What's the hardest workout? If you could describe it that you've maybe been in, and also favorite exercise as well, or favorite workout to do.

Hardest exercise would probably have to be. We used to run this thing called the sat. It was with our. It was with one of our older, old coaches. And it's basically this test where you run this. It's a bit of agility and then a bit of longer distance sprinting. And you do. I think it's six or eight reps of it doesn't sound like a lot, but you have to do as fast as you can. And you go. You go through it twice. And it is. All the guys would be so nervous for it in the mornings. It would just be. It's something that you just don't look forward to. And it was our standardized fitness test, and it was different than the yo yo because you had to do a lot of up downs as well. So it would be. All the guys would just be. It would be close to blacking out at the end of it. Like, honestly, I've. Like some of the times I just collapse at the end of it, and it kind of gets a little bit dark.

Is it the chest to the ground at every end cone?

Yeah. So you go. You start in your stomach. You go around the first cone that's five meters away. You backpedal and you do a down up, and then you do that again, and then you go through a bit of a slalom course and then all the way back. And then you go through that twice.

A couple of guys through. Through that because they needed to test on it before heading to the national program. And so we were. And. And it's. It's a puker. It's just the. Like, you're. You're so. It's the anaerobic, a lactic, and, you know, you're just dead. You're either crying or puking by the time you're done.

Yeah. Blacking out.

Yeah. Oh, no, it's. I mean, it's. I mean, and if you're not. If you're not ending up, you know, feeling like you're gonna puke or something like that, you're probably had a. Had a couple. Couple extra reps in you.

Totally. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's definitely the. One of the. One of the Worst fitness tests. But I weirdly kind of like those tests because it's. I love that. I love the competitiveness of it. And it's always, you know, weeks in advance I'd be thinking about it, you know, getting my, like, hydration right and eating the right things, just because it was like, you know, I just get kind of excited. And the competitiveness of it is awesome as well. I know, I know. Connor Traynor hated that one. Yeah, I know. I know he hated that one.

Aerobic fitness was the stuff he didn't like to train for. But at the same time, it's good to hear your attention to detail because those are the signs of the professional. After years of practicing and really understanding what your body is fine tuned to, to respond the best to. So where you're. The timing of your eating, the hydration, the knowing how fit you are going into that, you can almost predict what your results are going to be because you know how fit you are, you know exactly where you're at. So those are. Those are really, really awesome things to have. What about. What's a little thing about you that maybe most people don't know? Maybe it's a quirk, something unique, a habit, whatever. But anything that's something most people might not know about you.

Besides, you love a kegel.

You're doing that now, aren't you? That's probably one of them. Well, on a quick side note, I have this because of those groin exercises I have to do. I have to use this. This piece of equipment. It's called the core X. You know, that thing with. It attaches to your wrists and your knees and then it goes the bend. It's like.

Is it bungee?

Yeah, it's a bungee thing. And it creates like an X from your knees to your hands, and there's an orange ball in the middle and it looks like a. Like a weird, like, sex toy. So when I had to start using that. Bring out the gam. Yeah. Well, you can imagine, you know, a group of rugby guys, the amount of ridicule I get from. From all the boys when I'd be doing these weird little exercises. They looking at me all weird.

You're starting a new trend. It's just going to be normal among rugby teams now.

Okay, but what.

What don't people know about you besides.

Besides your strange toys? Your strange, unusual toys?

I. I know, I know I talked about my. Maybe it's not a per. It's not completely a personal thing, but. But I'm a family guy and I'm super close to my family. And I mentioned how I have two older twin brothers. I actually have two younger twin sisters as well. They're both identical. And then I have another younger sister as well. So that's a big family. Yeah, yeah, six of us. And it's pretty unique and it's fun and exciting, and whenever I mention that, people just go, like, that's crazy. Two sets of identical twins in the same family doesn't happen too often.

So what are the brothers and the sister sisters and the other one do now? Are they in sports or what are. What are they up to?

Ben and Charlie, my two older twin brothers, are not. They. They got to age grade national level, and then they both had some pretty tough injuries. Ben had three ACL injuries, Charlie had. Charlie. Charlie had an acl, a really nasty spiral fracture in his ankle, and then he actually had osteitis pubis as well. So both of them, among some other things as well. But both of them. The decision was made for them fairly early in their athletic careers because they were way better than I was, to be honest. They were so good, but just through injury, that has got a little bit unlucky. So they're both working right now and doing really well. My two youngest sisters, Amy and Sophie, played field hockey at a high level, both at UBC and won a bunch of national championships. And Nell played field hockey as well. Not as. Not as. As high of a level, but, you know, there was obviously the athletic gene runs through all the kids in our family, which is. Which is pretty cool. And it was always fun for me to go and watch Amy and Sophie play at some of these national championships, like, and they. They played one. It must have been two or three years ago now at UVic, where they played. Where they're playing UVic and down 3 1. I think with hardly any time left, they ended up winning it. And I was. You know, I've never been so proud of my sister. They both. Yeah, it was such an exciting thing. And to be able to watch them because they watch me so much, and it was. Yeah, it was really cool.

That's amazing. What about something like a favorite food or dessert? What do you. What do you have that way?

Oh, man. I. Ben and Jerry's ice cream was my. Yeah, yeah, that was. I've. I've had to wean off of it.

Which flavor?

There's one. It was peanut butter Half baked was my kind of go to. And there was another one, I think it was called, like, if I had a million flavors, which it's basically all just like, like chocolate peanut butter, vanilla and chocolate ice cream. Anything like that. I was just like, I, you know, it's game over. But I've had to slow down on that a little bit. You know, where things are heading right now. So I'm, you know, just trying to stick with a few, few healthier options. But if that's one of my sneaky treats, if, you know, I have a, have a day off and after a.

Long training day and what about favorite movie or type of movies?

Ooh, Shawshank Redemption. Without a Doubt.

Nice.

It's. Yeah, it's a good one. It's becoming a really good classic. So I have to go with that one. Absolutely.

What about a book?

Oh, that's a good one. I would have to go with the Alchemist actually.

Oh yeah, that was a good one. Really good mindset after that.

Yeah, yeah, I think. And for anyone like that's read it once, read it a second time. My. Our analyst Callum Ramsey got me to. He was saying how he's read it like five or six times and I read it three years later than the first time I read it and I had a completely different perspective on things, which is really cool.

You've changed and it just, it changes your experience with the book.

Yeah, yeah. It's definitely a thought provoking book. So I thought. And it's obviously fairly popular. So I mean, I gave it a second read. I'd probably give it a third in a few years.

Awesome. Awesome. Can you. This might be a deep question for you, but let's say you're done rugby and you're done. I don't know, maybe, maybe you're towards the end of your life. I don't know here. But we.

What.

What would you want your legacy to be? Whether it's rugby related or life related, what do you want your legacy to look like?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think something that I've started to talk a lot about is transitioning athletes from sport to life after sport. I think that, you know, everyone sees the glamorous, you know, playing on the world stage in front of thousands of people at Olympics or world games or anything like that. But what a lot of people don't see is you, the day in, day out struggle that a lot of people go through and especially when you transition and that loss of identity and something that I haven't gone through. But I've really wanted to expose myself to people that have gone through it. And I've quite recently been on the panel of A few different events where I've been able to speak about it. And I just would like to be able to give back in some way and help others. Obviously I haven't gone through it yet, but I'm trying to provide, prepare myself for that transition just because I think it's such a volatile time as far as not only personal identity, but just trying to find a new, you know, new goals and a new vision and just being able to take care of yourself, whether it's physically or mentally. I think obviously a lot of people are fairly outspoken about it, things that they go through, anxiety, depression or serious injury. And I think that's something that, you know, there's not enough exposure for athletes right now. And if I could in some way help when I'm done and leave some type of legacy where there is some type of pathway or medium for people to go to, to talk about, whether it's education or, you know, mental issues or even just, you know, working on. Working on just your athletic ability as well. I mean, whatever it is, I think it's such a. I think it's such a great talking point and something that we should be doing a lot more of.

So.

So, I mean, just staying involved in something like that would be pretty cool.

That just, you know, makes our hearts sing because, you know, that's. Those are some of the reasons why we started this. And you know, we would love to work with you in the future on anything that you pursue because this is such a topic near and dear to our hearts and helping athletes.

For sure. For sure.

No, I'd definitely love to stay, stay in touch and, you know, work on things in the future. For sure.

Anything else you guys want to add as we wrap up?

Oh, man, I Talking about almost everything under the sun, so I don't think there's. I just want to say thank you for the opportunity. You know, I really enjoy talking about this and you know, even if it, Even if this helps one person, you know, you know, think about, you know, whether it's their transition or something about what they're doing athletically right now, I mean, it's. That's a win in my book. So I just want to say thank you for opening up the opportunity for me.

Harry, we want to say thank you to you for your persistence and helping make this happen. This was try number three due to iCloud issues and last minute practices and things. So thank you for making the time for us and we really want to thank you because we know that you are inspiring that next generation of players that, you know, just you look at that event that went on in B.C. just a few weeks ago, there's, you know, how many kids in the crowd seeing that, being exposed to high level, the highest level of rugby sevens in the world. And just the atmosphere and it's, it's inspiring for people to see do what you do and do it with the class that you do it with and the way you stand up for your teammates. And that just exudes from your entire team and group. So we, you know, again, thank you for making the time, especially before the trip and we're wishing you best of luck in Hong Kong. That's the 5th to the 7th of April. Catch it on CBC Sports Online. It'll be streaming and in Singapore on the 13th and the 14th as well.

Thank you so much, Harry. You are so inspiring and we're so grateful to have this time with you.

Awesome. Thanks so much for making it easy for me too.

All right, thanks a lot.

All right, see you guys.

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