EP5 Dave Bolland - Hockey - NHL

This is episode five, the Empowered Athlete podcast. Today on the Empowered Athlete Podcast, we'll explore the highest highs of professional sport and the lowest lows with our guest, David Boland.

Dave is such a laid back guy, but you'd never know it on the ice. He's the winner of a Memorial cup and a gold at World Juniors. Not only that, he. He has hoisted the Stanley cup not once, but twice. Let's dive into this interview. We can't wait to hear from Dave Boland.

Let me take you back to the summer of 2008. I hadn't qualified for the Olympics again, but it was my first summer not playing for the national team. I had it off. And I got to train the entire summer with Kari on a specifically made program that was tailored to me. My injuries, my body, and my goals for that next upcoming season. And I was 34 years old. Well, the result went back over to Turkey and won a European cup in incredible physical condition. Thank you to that program setting me up for the perfect season. Well, now you have access to the exact same thing. Hit email ksempowerconditioning.com that's KS for Kari Schneider and get started on one of Kari's incredible online training programs. The program is tailored to you. It has video of each exercise you're doing so you know what you're doing. Your reps are laid out, the sets are laid out. You can't go wrong. Reach out now to reach your best.

Welcome to the Empowered Athlete Podcast, created to support athletes in their pursuit of excellence and inspire others toward their best lives. Hosted by Kari Schneider, coach to top performers in sport and life, and Paul Durden, former national and professional volleyball player. Okay, we're here on the Empowered Athlete podcast and with co host Paul Dan. And we're so fortunate to have Dave Boland on today. Welcome, Dave.

Thanks for having me, guys.

Yeah, it's great to have you on. And I know that you've, you know, there'd be so many people who are excited to listen to a little bit about you and your life and your career, which has been really decorated. So if you want to, we often try to back up a bit and ask a little bit about how you got into your sport and what the backstory looks like. So what's that like for you, Dave? Where did you start? Was it lacrosse that really got your heart first?

No, no, no, it was actually hockey. My older brother was out skating one time and my uncle, actually my dad immigrated over from Scotland, so it was a little different. They don't have hockey in Scotland. And they're not sure what hockey really was back in back. How long ago. So when my dad came over here, my older brother was my uncle. Sorry. Sort of talked about hockey and got my older brother into it, and he was playing, and I kind of looked at my dad and said, hey, I want to do this too, and I want to play as well. So how much.

How much older was your brother? He is your brother. I imagine he's still the same.

Yeah, he's older. He's still older. He's about five. Five years older than me.

Nice. So you just had that age gap. So you'd look up to him and think like, hey, I want that.

Yeah. So he. So he was playing before me, and I always saw him out there and he was always on the ice and playing hockey. And I sort of wanted. Told my dad I wanted to play. And my dad was still new to Scott, new to Canada, and trying to figure stuff out. So my uncle helped out a bit and helped out my dad, and we, we kind of. We kind of figured things out and got me into hockey, and hockey was the first thing. So I started hockey and had equipment that was two sizes too big. And how old were you?

How old were you then?

I think I was about 6. 5 or 6. 6. And we, we, our family, we didn't have a lot of money. We. My dad worked, my mom worked, and they didn't have their jobs, and we, we had equipment that was probably two sizes too big and skates that were two sizes too big to make sure they fit for another few years. And we just started playing hockey. And I grew up in Mimico and started there, and I think about eight. Eight years old. Brian Shanahan, Brendan Shanahan's brother, was coaching me and sort of told my dad to get me in lacrosse as well. And I kind of got into lacrosse as well, and lacrosse took off for me as well after that as well. So I had two sports that were great for training and great for me and great for different things in hockey and different things in lacrosse that kept me motivated and kept me an athlete.

That's. That's kind of the perfect start. You don't know it at the time, but. And your parents probably had no idea either, but just to get the, the cross training in the summer from lacrosse and, and. And getting all that together. Did we. We've got kids who have been in lacrosse and hockey. Did your parents really, like. I don't know if you've ever asked them this, but were they. Did they Just kind of go with the flow. It's like, this is what you do for hockey. So we're going to make all these trips and drive all these places and buy all the equipment. Or did they just kind of go with it or was there any time where they were kind of like, I don't know if this is still the right thing or did they just see your love for it and go for it?

I think they saw my love for it and went for it. It was expensive. And you think back in. Back then and just to play pee wee hockey one year, I think it cost my parents almost $15,000. And.

Yeah.

How many years that's going back about. That's a ton of money years that's going a while back there. That's still a lot of money to a family that doesn't make a lot and is still working hard for what they have to do. So some things had to get cut short from my brothers and some things had to go. But I think they saw the love of the game for me and they kind of went with the flow with it and kept on helping with it, helping me with it and kept on pushing me.

How, how. How many brothers do you have? Two.

I got one older and two younger.

And were they. Were the younger ones kind of looking up to you? Did they want to go hockey too?

No, not really. They didn't. They didn't. My younger brothers, they liked hockey, but they didn't really get into it. My youngest brother, he actually works at the Leafs practice rink, just doing. Cleaning the room and helping out with them, but he never really got into it and didn't really get the edge or get the push that some guys get when they want to play.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, once you kind of catch the bug, then away you go.

Yeah, that's what it was.

And what. So if we flash forward, you got to the point where you were being looked at for the ohl. Like, what was that kind of transition like for you?

Yeah, it was. It was. It was different. It was weird. That probably be about Bantam. And I was about 15 years old and my love for hockey was still there, but my love for lacrosse was still there as well. And like in both sports, I went, I think, eighth overall in the first. Eighth overall in the OHL draft. And I also went, I think, sixth or seventh overall in the. In a junior A draft for lacrosse.

Wow.

So I was. I was kind of. I was kind of on the fence for both. But I think, I think when I look at it, there's A lot more money to be done in hockey and a little bit more of a career, and you can do a lot more. But I still have love for lacrosse.

Was that the deciding factor then, though? Like.

No, I think.

I think because you don't really get it at that age. Like, you don't really under. I mean, and I still didn't. You do and you don't.

Yeah. Even at that age, I still had that thought. I was like, am I going to make it or am I not going to make it? And I think those first two years of the OHL and getting ready for the NHL draft, those are crucial years that you need to be top of your game and in the game. And I still remember my first year in the ohl playing under Dale Hunter. I didn't play much. I only had 17 points. I didn't learn. I didn't know the game well. I didn't know anything about my defensive zone. I was a young kid that just wanted to score goals and play this game, and that's all I wanted to do. And he helped me fix that game around and got me to where I was. Got me to where I am.

It's interesting that so many times we hear when you look back, you don't. You don't really. It's almost like the right time and the right place. Like, if that particular person hadn't coached a certain way or a certain thing at that time, then, you know, the outcome might have been different.

Yeah.

Or. Or the timing would have been different and then it wouldn't have worked or whatever.

You know, it could have been that. Or if I would have went a little bit early in the draft and I went to somewhere else, to Sarnia or.

Yeah.

Went to another team. But we had a great team and we went. We won a Memorial Cup. We were. I think we were just named Century Team of the Century.

Yeah.

Just not too long ago. And I think sometimes things just need to fall into place. And if things fall into place in the right time and the right places, things go well. If not, then I think sometimes that's how it goes.

I know for me, looking back on my career, that there was a lot of teams, as with especially early on as a professional, that I didn't realize at the time, but just being with a certain group of professionals. I played with a couple of the Dutch national team members early on in my career and learned just a ton from them about being professional and being in that environment and being pushed in practice every day. That really helped accelerate me as A player. And I feel like that must have been the same for you, that Memorial cup group, because you just look at the talent across the board of that group. You said it. You know, you've been named as one of the teams of the century that to be in that environment, it is the perfect storm for developing player.

And it is. And I think you also have guys like Gill and Mark Hunter that played how many years and Basil McRae that they played how many years in NHL and they played 20 years over. Over. Combined, I think they played way more than 20 years. And to have them alongside and have them be with you and to teach you all that, it's one of those things that's great.

Yeah. And you realize now, but maybe you didn't fully realize then.

No, I didn't back then. Back then I was more just like, okay, I'm going to go out and play hockey and I'm going to do my thing and if hockey doesn't go well, I've got a school package that the team offers you and I'll go to school and I'll figure something out. And that was it.

So they offered you like, like a high school packed package or a.

No, no package, no university package. So whenever you. So whenever there's different, like. So if you're a first round pick, second round pick, the round pick, there's different packages you get. So when you're a first round pick, you get a full ride, you get.

A scholarship offer kind of.

Yeah. So like. Yeah, if things don't happen and like it's there and you can use that full package and do your thing, but it's different for rounds and that or what kind of play you are.

So at that time, if you think back at that time, you are moving away from home, but you're young, it's a whole new experience. You're probably billeted. Were you living with billets?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What was that whole thing like? Because you're away from your parents and all of that.

It was weird. It was different because I was, I was home and I had my parents, my brothers and my friends. And you move two hours away, two and a half hours away to London, Ontario, and you're gonna find new friends, you're going to a new school, you're gonna figure things out and kind of way you gotta figure things out for yourself because like you have your billet parents, but they're busy too. But you're busy as well, so.

Yeah. And they're not your real parents.

Yeah, correct. And they're not. And you're kind of getting used to them and trying to figure things out. And so it was. It was a bit of a. It was a. It was tough and it was hard. But I think once you get in the groove and you're around all the guys and you see the guys all the time and you meet so many good friends, but, like, you're around the guys so much that you sort of become close, close, close friends with each other.

There's another aspect to it that I was chatting with Kari about before getting on the interview with you and that I wanted to know. And it's the. Especially being in Canada, it's the media side and the microscope that you're thrown under. London, here's a big hockey town, Everyone follows the Knights and loves them. And what is it like as a young man? I mean, you're a teenager coming into that environment, you're being diluted, you're away from home, and then everything that you're doing on the ice is being talked about and wins and losses. And how did you deal with that and did anyone help you with it? And what was that pressure like? Or did it even affect you?

It didn't really affect me. I didn't really listen or, like, I'd read the. I'd read what they'd say, but I'd brush it off and just be like, who gives a. Who cares?

You can swear.

Oh, yeah, mostly just like, who gives a shit?

I know you.

Yeah, so. So. So, yeah, so, like, most of the time, I just. I just brush it off. And I was like, oh, well, whatever. Like, people are going to talk and they're going to critic your game, and they're going to say what they want, and I can't say anything. I just got to prove to them on the ice that. That. That I'm this kind of player, and this is what I got to do. But, yeah, like, that first year, I remember the first year coming into London, we were still. We just. They just moved from the Ice House over to downtown. So it was. It was different. And so we were getting more fans and the guys, everybody was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, this is crazy now. Like, we're getting a lot more exposure and we now going From, I think, 3, 500 fans to 9 to 10,000 fans. Almost an NHL game. NHL arena. Yeah, it was. It got crazier and crazier. And then the next year and the year after that, it just got even worse. And we, like you said, like, we were under that microscope the year we Won the Memorial Cup. So I think that was my second or third year, and I'm pretty sure that was my third year. And I think we went. I think we went almost like 40 games without losing, and it was a record. And. And, like, we were. And I think that was a lockout year that. That the NHL was locked out, so all the media and everything was all over us, and because there was no hockey going on, so they had to find something else. So we were there, and we had. I remember we had, like, TSN sportsnet. We had, like, all these other big medias, like, bigger, like, just the Toronto Sun. The Toronto Star wanted to talk to us, and we're like, well, we're in London here. Like, where's the Toronto Sun? The Toronto Star want to hear from us. But, yeah, it was. I think. I think some people take that microscope, and they kind of. They kind of take it in a different way or they run with it or. But I think on my side, I was more. I'm more of on the shy side. I try to kind of stay away from all that and just stay away from it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, your. Your forte is on the ice, and if you're gonna do it, if you're gonna do any talking, that's probably where it is, too.

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

So between 2004, 2005, 2006, and the Memorial cup and World Juniors and being drafted like you, it basically changed your whole life.

What.

I mean, what. What could that. What did you. I don't know. What were you going through? That must have been insane. Describe that. Getting drafted and everything you went through.

Yeah, it was. It was. It was. It was. It was pretty crazy. Winning the Memorial cup and then, like you said, winning the World Juniors gold medal for Team Canada, and that was in Vancouver. Those two, like, even. Those two just winning. Those are big accomplishments. And then getting drafted is even an even bigger accomplishment. And now you're. Now eventually, like, I figured out I could play. I can eventually play in the NHL. I can make a living out of this, hopefully, and we'll see where this goes. But just sitting at the draft and waiting for your name to be called. The first day for me was like, my size. Is he gonna get any bigger? What kind of player is he gonna be? Is he gonna be.

Yeah.

Is he gonna be 100? And I think I weighed, like, 155 pounds or 100.

Yeah.

I was soaking wet, and I was about 5 11, and. And they weren't sure, so it was like, either first round. Do we take him in the first round or we take. You just go in the second round. And to this day I'm glad I went in the second round because if I would have went late first round, I could have been on a team that could have never would. When I think back now that probably would never have made it to the playoffs or won a Stanley Cup.

Yeah.

So I'm pretty fortunate. And I think some of these kids today, they hope they go in the first round, but I think second round, the rate that first team or two teams in that second round, those are those last place teams that you're going to get a spot and you're going to play. And I was on Chicago and Chicago wasn't the greatest team back when I first got with them. They were trying to figure things out. Things were going on upstairs and with old man Wurtz and they were trying to figure things out and eventually I cracked that spot and all history.

And that's huge. What was that like to be called up?

It was fun, actually. It was pretty funny. My first game, I think it was like I got called up like right away, me and another guy, Michael Blunden, and we got to the airport and a limo picked us up and took us to the practice rink. And we were like, geez, this is pretty cool.

Big wide eyes, looking around.

I was like, I'd rather be doing this than sitting on the bus for 15 hours and on the farm team.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I was like, this looks a lot more fun than playing down there. So we got to the rink and we practiced the day before. And the next day we were playing Vancouver and actually lined up against my almost arch rivals when I started playing with the Sedan Twins and Marcus Naslin. And that was my first. I lined up against those two guys, Ed Naslan, and I think I was like, minus two. And I was like, geez, I'm like, this is. This isn't that easy. This is a little tougher up here.

So you started chirping. Is that when it all started?

No, no, no, no. I didn't start that. That was way too soon.

Wise choice.

Yeah, yeah. And I think when I did start, like there was a lot more tougher guys. And fighting was. Fighting was basically allowed to do. You can do whatever you want and.

Like somebody's got your back.

Yeah. So like it was like 05 and like they didn't get. They don't give a shit. They'll kill you. They'll run you over. They'll. Yeah. So, yeah. So I Played one game, that was the game against Vancouver. And then I got sent back down the next gate next day and they sort of gave me what I need to work on and what I got to do and I played the next season. I played my first season in, in Norfolk, Virginia and I think it was the best thing for me. I had coached by Mike Haviland and he was great. He taught me all the little things to be a pro and he had older guys on that team. But I think for any player that going through the draft and getting drafted and either playing a year in the NHL, I think a year in the HL is a wise decision. I think it taught me a lot and got me stronger and a little more stronger minded.

But Dave, I feel like that's something that's easy to say now.

Yeah.

Looking back on yourself, then, how did you feel about it? Because I know for me personally, I was hell bent to be the best player on every team I was on and, you know, took everything so personally. If someone was thought to be better than me, and you're coming into the NHL drafted in the second round, which, you know, now worked out really well, did you feel that way then? And also, you know, Memorial cup champion, world juniors champion, in your mind, were you expecting to get right onto a team and start playing in the HL and, and was there any kind of a mental setback or reset when you, you know, play that game and get sent down for. Basically it was about a year and a half. I think it ended up being.

Like the first year I was, the first year I went into the NHL.

Yeah. Because looking at it now, you realize what an amazing process. It was really great for your development. But at the time, thinking the same.

I wasn't, I think I was like anybody, I think anybody. I wanted to be up there, I wanted to play in the NHL. But at the same time I knew I was, I wasn't strong enough. I still had to put a little bit of weight on. I still gotta have to get a little stronger. I still had little tendencies that had to be picked up in my game that I was doing. And I think for me, going just, just going to the ahl, figuring that out, figuring what kind of player I was going to be. Because in, in, in, in the OHL, I had, I think 130 points and I was a goal scorer. I was, I was on the power play. I'd stay on and I would, I'd be that guy. And once I got a. Yeah, but still. Yeah, I still had that grip. But Once I got up to the ahl. Sorry, to the ahl, I still put up points. I wasn't putting up a lot of points like I was in the ohl, so like there was tendencies. So I had to figure out what kind of game I was going to play. So I was either am I going to stay in the HL and try and be a goal scorer and put up a lot of points, or can I figure this out quick and maybe be a third line center, work hard, still put up some good points, but crack that lineup right away because there's a lot of guys that sit in that hl, they try to figure out their job and they, they kind of, they can't figure it out that quick. And I get stuck. Yeah, you get stuck in that. You get. You sort of get stuck in that mode. You're like, what are you going to be? And I think, I think from what I, what I kind of went through, I kind of found my neck right when I got up there and I was gritty. I got in the corners, I got the puck, I was great. My defensive zone, and there it was. I was that third, second line kind of guy that was. That could blend in there.

Yeah, you had enough attributes to adapt to that situation that a lot of guys can't. And a lot of people looking in from the outside, what they don't realize, and this is true not just for hockey, but so many other sports, is that they don't. Somebody sees an athlete at a lower level and then they are, and they're. They shine. That athlete is just unbelievably talented, or they do all these things or they've got the right physical attributes, whatever it is, and then they, the person, as the onlooker automatically thinks that they're going to do amazing at the next level, whether it's a pro level or whatever. Right. But what most people don't realize is that it's a completely different game. And it doesn't matter whether it's like university sport compared to national team sport or, you know, OHL compared to AHL versus NHL or. But it's a different game at each level that people don't, from the outside don't necessarily take into account. But it's players like you that, you know, you have to adapt. And you did adapt, and that's what allowed you to keep going. Whereas a lot of other players, they can't make that shift to adapt to the requirements of that next level.

I know you're right. And I think you've got to be a Special person, like Sidney Crosby, Patrick Crane, like all these young guys that step in there. You've got to be pretty special.

Yeah. Yeah. So take us a little further because you, you know, you have the. The title of all titles. You. You've got two Stanley Cups. So what. What was that like? Like that. The first one in 2010. Like, you. You must have just been on top of the world.

Yeah, it was actually a tough season for me because I was battling back injuries and the year before and I was. I was at an L5 S1. I had a herniated disc, and I played the year before with it, and by the end of the season, it was just agony and I was in pain. And so I. The whole summer I did rehab for it, and I did some shots and hopefully an epidural. Hopefully this is going to make it better. And it didn't make it better. And I did one right before camp, and camp came in and I felt good. I felt great. And then first five or 10 games in, I felt it again and I was just like, and you can't be doing a lot of these epidurals. They're not good.

No.

Not good for you. And I think there's. There's a max of what you can have. And I had that max. And I. I remember talking to my trainer and he's like, well, I think the only thing we can do now is surgery. So I'm like, well, I never want to do surgery, but if this is going to help me and get me right back in this game, I'm going to do whatever I can. So I had surgery around November and started November, December, January, February. I came back and for the last about 25, 30, I think, like 30 games, I was back playing and I was fresh and I felt great. And I was kind of. I was like, this is nice. Thing's not an issue.

It's so rare to. First of all, like, I have a. I have a specialty. I have a master's degree of lumbar spine kinematics. So I got a specialty in back kind of awareness. But first of all, there's many, many times coming out of surgery, people don't get those kind of results that you got. Yeah, but, but, but second of all, you know, just the fact that you're able to step in at the end of the season and you're fresher than the rest of the guys because it's such a long, bloody season.

Yes.

That at that point you're fresher than a lot of other people. However, most Most people coming off an injury like that, they are. Are not quite back at 100%, and most athletes are never at 100% when they're in a pro season. They're usually at, you know, they're recovering from one little thing or another all the time. So what, you know, were you. You were feeling, like, at that 100 or were you feeling like 90 coming out of the surgery? Where were you at?

I felt 100 and, like, I was flying, and I was like. I felt. I was like. Like, all the. Most guys are at declining. They're at the end of the season, so they're like, yeah, like, they're. They're. They're still fresh, but they're not as fresh. And, like, I was at that 100%, and I was flying around. And once it came playoff time, I was ready to go. I was like, hey, let's do this. And we played. I forget we played. I remember that season was the year that we started the rivalry with. With Vancouver, and things started from there with. With me and the City Twins, and it was one of those things that kept going, but that 2010 Stanley cup was just. Winning that first Stanley cup was unbelievable and amazing. Just to hoist it and just to see what goes on with everything around it and what you got to go through to get there is even. Even harder. So it's not an easy accomplishment. And you talk to guys at the end of it, and, like, guys are. Guys have broken hands, broken ankles, scars, and there's. There's a. I think there's a battle wound from every Stanley Cup Final. You can talk to someone, and someone's got something wrong with them. There shouldn't be anybody that doesn't have a problem.

Yeah, Yeah.

I want to ask you, just stepping back to your back, no pun intended. Hockey in general, you know, has a reputation over other. Pretty much every other sport in the world that guys play through pain, they play through injury, all those sorts of things. And that's. That's just a culture in hockey that's ingrained from when you're a young player.

But what.

And you may not be able to answer this, but what is the pressure, like, from management and the people paying the bills in terms of getting you back? Because you describe being coming back at 100%, and I find that incredible because I know a lot of guys I played with and heard in other sports that people are pushed back too soon because you're really a commodity. You know, it is a business for these clubs, and they want to win. And if Somebody can't perform, they're going to get someone else in there. And were you in a situation that allowed you to truly heal? And when you said you came out at 100%, I'm blown away. I was expecting you to say, oh, 70%, but they wanted me back, you know.

No, I think you don't get. You do get the pressure. Like you said, it is a commodity, and it is. But even on my side, I want to play hockey. I want to get back out there. I don't want some kid coming up from the minors that's younger or could be faster than me and taking my spot. And I'm sitting out. So at times you're sitting there, you're like, well, I want to get back fast. I want to make sure that I'm ready as well. That too. Because some guys do come back a little bit too early or to be pushed a little bit too early, and they come back and they screw up their back again or they screw up with their rehab and. And it does happen. But there is situations that I know guys have gone through that have been pushed forward and let's go, let's go, let's. Let's get back, get back, get back. But I think at the same time, it's the player. You're the one. If you feel great, you should be ready to go. If you don't, you should have that state of mind or you should have that in your head that you can't go. And I always had that. I knew once I was ready, I was ready to get back over the ice. And if it was someone ever pushed me, I made sure. But I never really got pushed or anything by anybody, so I never really felt that pressure.

So tell us after that, because I don't know if you would have ever expected to go through another couple seasons and be faced with that kind of opportunity again for a Stanley Cup.

Yeah, and even having that one was even bigger when scoring the game. Winning goal.

Winning goal. That's amazing.

So I think a lot of kids these days, they play on the street, and I used to play on the street, and we used to use Bylons as the Stanley cup. And whoever scored the winning goal would be hoisting it and just having that moment and going through that moment and everything was. Was. Was all a blur to how fast it went and how crazy it was and just how nuts it was because we were thinking about. I think we were down. We're down 2, 1. And we guys were like, with something like that, we were thinking I'm pretty sure most of the guys were thinking, oh, well, we'll just go back home to Chicago. And we won it on the road last time, so let's win it at home this time. So I think a lot of guys are thinking that. And out of the Blue, we scored two goals in 17 seconds. And we're up 3, 2, and we still have 57 seconds left in the game. So it was one of those things that was crazy and quick, and it just went by so fast that you're like, holy shit. Hey, we won the Stanley Cup. The game's over. So it was fun and it was crazy as well.

I remember Shrempi going to visit you when you were still playing. I don't know what game you were at, but it was just like, he wasn't sure. It sounded like from him that you weren't sure at that point because everybody was just so spent. It was just. I mean, this time into that deep into the playoffs, this time you weren't rested. This time you're barely hanging on. And, you know, I was working with you in the gym after that, and you were. You were a rail. Like, after that long of a season, there was just nothing left. You're. You're basically.

And then we came.

Completed.

Oh, yeah. And that was after. That was. That was just a half of a season, really, because that was a. That was a lockout year. And we came back and we only played. I think we got to about 50 games. I'm not sure how many games we played. And then you had another extra. I think you go far, so you have an extra how many games. And like, just by, like you said, like our season, that season, we ended in, like, because the season was so late, we started so late that the. The season didn't get the season end. The Stanley cup finals didn't until I think it was like June 27th or 28th. And you think about it sometimes, like, most of the time you're gonna party. So party for a week, get it all. Get it all out, and then try to get back in the gym. And then there's always something going on with a Stanley cup party or something. And then you. You try to get it back. And the season was turning right back around there, and we had to be back by September. So I had about two months or a month to get back into it. So it was. It was.

It was a quick turnaround, so little recovery.

But, yeah, I was. I remember I was. I think I was probably about 175 pounds. He's just like, Jesus. Like, it takes a lot out of you.

Yeah. Yeah. And so take us forward. What happened after that?

So after that, I played another season with Chicago and I was getting towards the end of my contract, and I think Chicago knew they weren't going to sign me back there, and I was going to ask for more money too, because winning some Stanley Cups, that helps you in contract talk. So they traded me to Toronto. Went and started the year in Toronto. And it was exciting. It was really exciting because I got to go come back home. I was born in Toronto, and playing for your hometown team is probably one of the best feelings you can ever have. And actually, it was great by Stan Bowman, the gm, and he called. I knew something was happening. And he called me up and he's like, hey. And I kind of knew it was coming. He's like, well, he's like, we traded you. I was like, well, I kind of knew that was coming. He's like, well, but I traded you back home. You go back home to Toronto. I was like, oh. And I kind of got some chills and all through. All over my body. I was like, well, this is pretty neat to go back home and. And play for my. And play for the Toronto A Police. So from there, got all settled in Toronto. My first 12 games, I think I had 15 points. I was on probably one of the best career that starts in my career. And things were going great. We went into Florida. Sorry. We went into Vancouver and I had a skate blade cut my perineal tendon and that. That's kind of where things ended. That ended. Things started to decline.

Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about the. How it happened.

I went in the corner with. I forget who it is now. Zach Cassian and his. It was an accident. He sort of came up here. He was behind me and his skate plate just came up. And I probably had about an inch or two, not that much room between my. My skate and my shin pad. And his blade just came down and cut the tendon right off. I tried to get up. What's that? I tried to get up one time and my ankle buckled and I was like, oh, like, what the. I tried to get up another time and I was like, geez. And I think something's wrong here. So I had some guys carry me off and got into the dressing room and got in the back and I had our doctor there and then I had that Vancouver's team surgery. Surgery. Doctor, what you call him, but yeah, orthopedics. Orthopedic, Yep. Or so, yeah. So He. So he came in and he took two fingers and stuck it inside my ankle and he said, you're. He's like, you're done. He's like, your tendons cut right off. So from there I hopped in an ambulance, went to the, Went to the Vancouver. Vancouver Hospital, sat in there for a night waiting to get surgery, and was woken up at about 5am, 6am to go in and get it repaired.

How, like, was that, Was that a pretty big low for you? What was, what were you feeling like then?

Right there and then I didn't think of anything because I was just like, well, I'll just rehab this and it'll.

Like, you did your back and you did other things and you just do what you've done before. It'll be fine.

So like, I had a full growing and just go and do my thing and this is what I can do. And hey, I'll just rehab it. I'll come back. And I remember just getting, I remember just, even the first few days there in the hotel and sorry in the hospital, it was painful. I was in agony and like, it was, it was a lot. And just, just, just going through that was, was a lot. So it was, it was, it was a bit of a down. But I think I got back to Toronto and tried to get rehab in right away and get on this and we tried to.

So I remember seeing you in, in our gym. I don't know how long after the injury it was, but I couldn't believe. And it was months after. I know that for sure, but I couldn't believe the size and the thickness of the scar tissue.

Yeah.

Around it. And you were describing to me how that interfered with just doing up your skate.

Yeah.

Or anything pressing against it.

Yeah. So I had to, I had to go to Bauer, to the Bauer, the Bauer factory to get like new skates all formed to my ankle because the, the tissue was so much. And it was actually more painful just going through the rehab and having, having our trainers trying to get that tissue out. So they'd sit there for a good like 20 minutes just rubbing it and just trying to rub that scar tissue. Get it out, get it out because it builds up and I can still, I still have a little bit. It's still not as much, but it's still there.

But it's all that friction massage and it's so painful. And at the same time, if, if they don't do it, it, it, it'll stay big and hard like that. Like just a big chunk on the side of Your leg and.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Giving an idea of how painful it is. I just want to give, you know, the listeners an inkling of how painful friction massage is on that. I. I would get it occasionally on my patellar tendons when they were really flared up. And I was sitting on a training table in Belgium, and the trainer and went and did that when I was especially sore, and I pulled my arms back and put both of my elbows through the drywall. I was sitting and put two holes in the wall because it is just. It's excruciating. It's. It's not like a knife pain. It's a. It's a burning hot, intense pain that just. Yeah, you'll put your elbows through walls. Unbelievable.

And you got. And you have big elbows.

So what's. What's. What's happening for. I mean, like, you've. When you got back on the ice and you're trying to rehab this and you're pushing through and you go to skate and the skates won't fit properly, and your gait is different. Like, your stride on the ice is different. Like, what's. What's going through your head? What. What happened from there?

Yeah, from there, I kind of kept on working. Like, I. Like any hockey player or any kind of athlete, you. You get to work and you do everything you can. And I just remember coming home and I'd have a stem machine on my. On my thighs, on my. Everywhere. I had a big ice machine. Forget what it's called, but I'd have that hooked up to my ankle, just icing it every night, like, anything to do. I was trying everything, and we. And I just still remember going on the ice and trying to push off and pushing off, and I got no power, and I'm like, oh, boy. I'm like, this doesn't feel good. And we had to tape the ankle for a bit because it was. Not that it was weak. It was. Well, it was weak, but I just had. I needed some stiffness there to help me a little bit, and I tried that, but even that was. Was interfering with it. So I think I got back for. I got back for two games at the end of the season, and it still. It still wasn't right, but I knew I had a summer coming ahead, and that would be the biggest summer of my career. To. To change things around and to. To get it strong and to build it.

And in going through all that, then. Then you were. You traded at that point. What happened then?

No, I signed. I was a free agent. So once you hit 28 years old, you're, you're a free agent and you can shop around and you can go and see who, who wants you and, and, and what's going on. So the Florida Panthers came to me and wanted to sign me. So I was fortunate to go to, to Florida and, and, and play there.

And so what's happening for you? What, what went from there and what describe what was going on in Florida and then from then on?

Yeah, so I, I, I got to Florida first season and got everything going and thought I was strong. And that first season just, I've had my ups and downs. I had my ankle and then even with my ankle, my back and I think once, you know, once one thing goes, your ankle goes your back and with back problems as well. With me, it kind of came back again and flared up and I started declining, declining and it was going down and I kept on working. I tried everything, I just wanted to try everything to get back into the game and never wanted to leave the game. Like the love of the game is always there and trying to leave it, and leave it at an early age isn't fun. But that first year was a grind and I didn't know what was going on and just like my ankle, my back, like, keep trying everything, what else can we do? And so that first year went by, came back home, worked hard, got ready for that next season and that next season was the year of hell. I got, Things weren't going for, things weren't going that well for me. My game wasn't as it was when I played for Chicago and I knew my ankle was one of those things that was stopping me. So I went down to the minors, played there and hopefully tried to figure something out. But I just, even down there in the minors, I was declining and it was tough keeping up down there and that's when I had to call it quits.

And that was, yeah, it's, it's interesting because you, you've almost had this experience with, with both the unexpected on the highs and unexpected on the lows like you could never have predicted some of the amazing great things that happen when it comes to, you know, Stanley Cups game winning goals. Just the kind of process that you had going through. I don't think you or anybody else could have predicted that. And at the same time, the exact same is true on the, on the lows because who could ever predict that you're going to get a blade across your ankle and sever the tendons? Like that's just such, I mean, there's some freak accidents in hockey, but that's one of those ones where you're like, what?

Yeah.

And you know, there's just these unexpected highs and lows. Out of all the things that you went through, what would you say was like the biggest challenge, the darkest point out of all those things?

Well, probably going through all my, like my ankle was probably the darkest. It was just a lot, a lot of pain, a lot of things I had to go through. Just in the hospital, just trying to get on a flight back home to Toronto. It was a, like it was, it was a lot. And just going through just that, that, that, just going, just having that like, like you said, like winning two Stanley Cups, getting traded to my hometown team in Toronto, being Jack and how excited. And then having a skate blade cut you and then signing a five year deal with Florida and you're up, you're high again. And that first year, year and a half, you're there and you start declining, then you're back in the lows and you do. You have those highs and lows and you're not sure if you're coming or going or what's going on. And I think the lowest point was when, was when was when I got sent down the Miners and I had to tell them that like, I can't play anymore. Like, my ankle is shot, I don't have that strength. I can't keep up. Like, I can't even keep up in the hl, like, and, and just trying to say that to a trainer and to a GM is like, that's nothing. That's something you never want to say. And like, as a hockey player, like you said, like, we battle through everything. We take pucks to the face, you go back out there, you take a stick to the, to the, to the forehead and you get stitches and you come back out there. And to say, I can't come back out there and not play anymore for the rest of my life was tough.

It was a hell of a lot harder than any of those physical wounds.

Oh yeah, yeah. I'd take them out. 40 stitches over the forehead then to deal with that ankle.

Yeah, you know, something I really struggled with retiring, was feeling so tied to being a volleyball player. And it's what I did, it's who I was, it's how I was known. It was everything for me. And how are you dealing with this transition? Because you're describing obviously that hockey, you're not playing at the level you want to anymore. And since age 6, you've been a Hockey player. How has that been for you?

It's been tough and I know. Just, just. Well, for me, as of right now, I, I, when I, when, when I was done, I still had three years left of my contract, so I still had to, I still had to be there. I still have to do what I had to do. I've got to do therapy. I've got to do stuff for insurance. I'm still under contract with the NHL and with, well, now it's Arizona, but like you said, it's, it is, it's like finding hobbies and finding things to do and, and trying to stay busy is one of those things. But when I come back here to London, it's, it's awesome because I'm good friends with Dylan Hunter and Dale Hunter and I go to the rink and I stay in the game and just standing with the game and being around it is great and. Excuse me, it's still, it still keeps, you, keeps your head in there and like you're always around it, so, and even just watching it. But like you said, like being done hockey, it is weird because I, I, you're kind of a robot. Like you wake up, you wake up at like every morning. I wake up at 8, go to the ring, eat my breakfast, go to, get ready, go do my stretch, go on the ice, come off, eat like if it's a game day, you had your, like your times were all sorted out and you had to be, I had to be. Had lunch this time, come home, nap, go back to the ring, hey, do that. They leave. So it was, yeah, and then, and then, and then I go, I go from there to like, well, I get up at 10:30, 11.

It's not good for you.

Yeah, I know. So it's like, and, and, and it's also like I, I'm like, I'll just take a few weeks off at the gym. I won't go on. I normally work out, I work out in, in back when I'm in Florida. But I came back here, London, and I sort of slacked it out, slack a bit. I was, I was like, well, I'm going to be busy with my daughter and blah, blah, blah. But it does, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a big, it's a big change and it's, it's one of those things you're, you're like, I still wish I was playing. I still wish I was on that regimen. You get so used to it when.

When you, a couple things you're talking about, number one, getting back in an environment where you're at the rink and you're, you know, you're with the guys in London, the Hunters and the Knights, and it's. That's the kind of thing that I know Paul and I have talked about a lot in. You know, I have this vision of athletes who retire, whether it's from national team sport or pro sport, that, you know, if there is still some way for them still to be involved. Because the cutting. Cutting an athlete off of that full, full regimented schedule ends up like. It's like severing everything that they know, every pattern that they've done, every. And most, not all, but most athletes really find that, you know, it's like this no man's land. It's like this void that's. That's empty and open that you just don't. You don't know what to do with yourself. And it might not always be positive. You know, there's a lot of. A lot of dark places and bad things that happen when somebody doesn't know what to do with themselves. But it's like that connection or that involvement with people who are still in. It is huge to feel like you're still part of it or still contributing or still wanted. Yeah, still wanted. Like. Because otherwise. Otherwise, when I know for Paul, you know, retiring from the national team, there's nothing like, there's just no. There's no connection or anything. Now, he was still playing pro, but. But then after that, you know, when the contract's done and everything, it's. You're just so done that there, it's. It's like cutting the cord. And I, you know, I. I personally just think that some sort of connection like you're describing, you're fortunate enough to have buddies, that you'll have lifelong buddies in this area and, you know, you'll always have that kind of connection. They'll probably always want you involved in some form or another. But, you know, for a lot of them, it's just like, where do you go? What do you do? You know, you can only fill so much time with your hobbies unless it's, you know, when your whole day in life had always been full of. Of the whole schedule. And. And that's exactly what. What Paul was like. It was like, you wake up at this time, everything works backwards from practice time or game time. You know, you have to eat at this time, nap at that time. And it's just a. You know, and. And like you. That's the same kind of thing. Paul was that robotic kind of. Okay, this is what I do now. I do this now. I do this. And then all of a sudden you're in the real world and there's kids and there's like, like, how do you, how do you earn money? What do you do? How does, you know all these extra things? But. So you're, you're a dad. What's it like being a dad in. And parenting?

Yeah, it's fun. It's fun. So my daughter lives in Toronto with, with her mother and I live here and I see her a lot and she's, she's a girl. So I, I had, I had, I had all brothers. So having a, having a little girl, it's a little different now.

So I, I, So you're saying you don't know what the hell to do.

Most of the time, basically, or these can't, these tantrums and everything. But, but she's great. She's fun. She keeps me alive. She, she always gets a little nerve that she pushes with me, but she's awesome. She's, she's my little sweetheart and it's one of those things.

So would you ever want, would you ever want her to play hockey if.

She ever wanted to play hockey? I would if she ever wanted to play. Whatever she want to do, it's up to her. She's more, I think she's more on the girly girl side. She's into the Barbies and the gymnastics and the dance and all that.

So bring your feminine side out in your days.

Yeah, I know. I don't know if I have that. I think the only feminine side I have is my. No, she hasn't, she hasn't really wanted to skate. I tried to, tried to get her out, but she's a little iffy. So I'll probably, now that I'm back here a lot more and I'll probably get her out a lot more to do the Budweiser Gardens there and get her out on the ice and have some fun with her.

What do you see next for yourself in the near future?

I don't know yet. It's one of those things. I got London Knights here, they've always been fortunate and they're grade A class organization. And then I also have the Chicago Blackhawks that I won two Stanley Cups and they're an A class organization too, that has always said if you ever need help or you ever want to come back and do something, or you want to do this, or they're, they're both A class, organizations and like I said, like, I grew up playing hockey and that was my life was hockey. I think school was second. But. But hockey is what I know and hockey is implemented in my brain. And I think you see a lot of guys that are done hockey, they stay in with it because that's the one thing they know. They know hockey. So if I can stay in with hockey and do something. Do something with that or. I'm not sure yet. So we'll see.

Okay. That's awesome. I'm going to ask you a few, like, quick fire questions to allow people to get to know you a little better. What would be one tip that you would give somebody who's just a young upcomer in hockey? A little tip for them, A little advice.

Have fun. I think some of these parents these days, they take it a little too serious. And I think the one thing with me was I played hockey during the winter and I played lacrosse during the summer. I played hockey all year round the one year, and I hated hockey. I was like, I don't want to do this. And you kind of get sick of it. So I think at one point, I think it's just to have fun and.

Enjoy it and do. Go ahead.

I was just gonna say that I feel like you're lucky maybe in a sense to have parents, you know, from Scotland to avoid that whole aspect of it completely. I'm surprised your dad wasn't pushing you to be playing soccer.

Right. Yeah, I know. Yeah.

You know, coming to Canada, it's just go for it and have fun.

Yeah, yeah.

Can't call it soccer.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What.

What's your favorite hobby?

Golf.

What's your favorite book?

The ones that have pictures.

Not the dirty ones.

My daughter's books.

Yeah. You're reading. You're reading dirt?

I don't know. I haven't really. I'm not really much of a book reader. I could start reading books. I'm more of a documentary. I'd have to go with slapshot. Oh, excellent.

Classic.

So good. Yeah, so good.

Favorite favorite food or dessert?

Favorite food would have to go with pizza. Favorite dessert? I'm lactose intolerant, so it's a little tough with ice cream, but I'd have to go with. I have to go with apple pie.

Okay, nice.

You played for Chicago. So are we favorite pizzas? Are we talking to Chicago deep dish or.

Oh, yeah, I. I like any kind of pizza. Any kind of pizza. Any kind of pizza. Like deep dishes, deep dish. The only thing with deep dish, you only have one slice because there's. There's a pound of cheese on it. And like, for me. For me, it. It hurt. So.

But you're like, you're. You're allergic to basically everything, like nuts and cheese.

Actually, I'm not. Actually. I'm not allergic to nuts anymore. I actually now eat fasting and they said I'm. I'm. I don't know if I was even allergic to them, but they're like, you're not allergic to them. So. So. So now I. I start. I got. Not into the peanut butter, but I gradually get into it, but it's. I do like the nuts now.

Sweet. That's perfect.

Yeah.

And anything else you want to share that people might be. You might want to know about you. It might be interesting that. That most people don't know about you.

I don't know. I love to sit on the couch and watch movies.

I think most people know that.

Yeah. I have a pretty. I have a coach. When I do buy my couches, they have to be pretty critique y. I need. I need a nice, big, soft couch. I put a lot of hours on it.

So we. We can call you a couch snob. You're a couch snob.

I am a couch snob. I am.

That's awesome. Well, anything else you want to add, Dave, to finish this off?

No, no, really, just thanks for having me, and it's awesome that you guys are doing this and it's fun, and thanks for having me. That's awesome.

Yeah, no problem. Dave, we're so grateful that you could be on, and I know that just what you've been through and your story is something that other people will benefit from hearing and just understanding what you've experienced. Experienced the highs, the lows, the good, the bad. And. And we're really grateful to have you on. You're a great guy, and it's been a pleasure to know you and work with you and. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Oh, thank you. Thanks for. No, thank you, guys. This is awesome.

No problem. We'll talk to you soon.

Okay, thanks.

Bye. Okay, not really by.

Not really.

There we go.

That was awesome, Dave.

That was good. That was good.

That was awesome.

No, you're welcome anytime. That was good. That's fun.

Yeah.

Is it what you expected?

I've done a few, like, these interviews, and I remember I did my buddy, he did like, a comedian one, and he was just asking, like, little hockey ones. But they're. They're fun. I like them. I like. I like. It's been a while Since I've actually done. Done an interview like this or a podcast, so. So it was. It was fun. I enjoyed it. So if you're looking for any other times, I'm here.

That's perfect. Well, thank you so much. We're going to. We're probably going to launch it, I think, in October. We're trying to get enough interviews and so that when we launch, we can. We can launch like three or four of them at once and. And then we'll probably do one a week after that. And. Yeah, so when we do, we'll let you know so that you can just share it out and that kind of thing and.

Yeah, yeah, let me know and I'll tweet it out or get out there.

Awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome. So you can hear our dogs?

Don't worry. No, no, no. All good.

Yeah, I think there's barking dogs, and you name it.

I got. I got barking dogs, too. Yeah, I got three.

Do you still have the little ones?

I got a. I got a toy poodle, a miniature gold doodle, and then a standard poodle.

So you know what? We. I brought back a Chihuahua terrier cross from Mexico. A little rescue from Mexico.

Oh, no way.

And surprised Paul.

I'll let her in on you there, honey. She's, like, begging to see you.

Oh, yeah. So he's kind of like, what did you do? I'm like. I wanted a small dog.

Actually.

The small dogs, they're nice and cuddly. I like them.

Oh, for sure. They're good on the couch. That's fine.

Yeah, that's fine.

Yep.

Paul wasn't prepared for her burrowing under the covers in the bed, though. He's like, what the hell? The other dog doesn't do this.

Hilarious.

No, that's good. Well, we really appreciate it. You're heading back to Florida soon?

Yeah, I head back. I'm actually heading to Greece in Italy on Saturday. Going, Greece, whereabouts? So we. We're going to Corfu, Greece, Then we hop on a boat and we've got a. We rented a boat that's going to take us up the coast and take us up to Italy to Sicily and then Sicily, and then go over to London, England, for a little bit and then. And then fly back home.

That's fantastic.

Yeah, we're excited. Looking forward to it.

Oh, that's really good. We interview Bob on Saturday, I think.

Oh, do you? Oh, good. Yeah.

So we're gonna chat with him then. So we're excited.

That'll be good. He'll. He'll like it.

Yeah, it'll be good. We'll have an amazing time on your trip. And say hi to Ecat.

I will, I will. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, no problem. You take care.

Okay. See you, Paul.

Thanks again, Dave.

Take care. Bye. We'll see you guys around. Bye.

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