EP71 Kari and Paul - Attachment

This is episode 71 of the Empowered Athlete Podcast.

Welcome to the Empowered Athlete Podcast, created to support athletes in their pursuit of excellence and inspire others toward their best lives. Hosted by Kari Schneider, coach to top performers in sport and life, and Paul Durden, former national and professional volleyball player.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show. It's Paul and Kari, back with you again. Before we get into the meat of the conversation today, the main dish, we want to do a little public service announcement and let you know that if you're hosting an event and you're looking for a dynamic speaker or two to present or speak at your event, well, we know a couple people who might be able to help you out. Kari, are you doing a lot of speaking lately? What can you offer?

Well, the last few events I've done have been a little bit of a roller coaster of sorts in. In a good way, in an amazing way. So, yeah, one was for nsca, for all kinds of education around strength and conditioning. And then another one was for an amazing group of tech startup companies. And we were working on finding the changes that are the one change that would make the huge difference in all other areas. So we did a little coaching and all kinds of info on that. And then another one was for a group of business women, and we dug deep in that one. So it was fantastic. And we got a couple. Our team, the Empowered, has a couple more coming up in February and March as well, but we have some spots in our schedule. So we are more than happy to help you with your event or motivate your corporate group or really dive into making the ways to make positive difference in getting all the things that you want for your work or your life or your relationships. So it's very, very exciting. Lots of fun stuff. And yeah, I just got back from Utah at a mastermind that I did a small amount of presenting at and did a lot of learning at. And it was an incredible mastermind. And I got to get out in the. In one of the Utah state parks. It was gorgeous, like rocks. And it just. I love the colors and the environment. So much different than here. So I love that variety. So lots has been happening, but more so on our personal or home front, it has been even more eventful because we are in the process of downsizing and it is shocking. And so this whole topic today is attachment to things and stuff.

And. And we have a few things and stuff kicking around as we found in the last few weeks.

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah. Just to shed a little background. So we weren't Kari and I have been living in the same house in London, Ontario for the last decade. And it's a great old house. It's in an area called North. A lot of character, but it's an old house and it has a lot of bedrooms. We had a lot of kids and we now have kids leaving, going to university. And we have been debating what do we do? Do we reno and make this change to this place to make it the space we want? Do we build an apartment in the basement? Do we move, yada yada. So Kari makes the suggestion of why don't we just go out and check out a few places to see what we really like and what we don't like.

Let's just look around. Yeah.

So we do that. And long story short, we bought a house. So now we are in crazy mode of getting ready to downsize, as you mentioned. Go ahead.

To give people a timeline. At Christmas and New Year's, we had no intention of buying a house. So we are one month later. This is February 1st. So after new Year's, that whole like, it's been, it's happened so fast that there's not even that kind of that preparatory, that mental preparatory stage. And we are just rolling things out really, really quickly. And it's been such a learning process of the attachment we have to all these things. And it's so interesting to watch, like you're watching me kind of hang on, cling on to something. Maybe it's item of clothing or something sentimental. And you're like, chuck that. And meanwhile I'm watching you do the exact same thing. You're like, well, you know, I really be able to use this. And I'm like, get rid of that. So it's, it's so bizarre. But also. Anyway, yeah, it's, it's been, it's been insane to know that this has happened so fast just to give people the timeline.

Yeah. So we, we want to dig into that. What we feel about our stuff, why we hang on to our stuff, why things. Some things are easy to let go of and others aren't. And it's, it's obviously very fresh for us. So we've had some insights. And one thing I want to add that isn't about the stuff and the things that we're looking at, but the, the great thing I've noticed on a personal level for us with the relationship and the stress of making the decisions that we've made and then the stress of already unloading the house and spending weekends getting it ready for sale is the level of connection that we have coming out of date with Destiny and the work that we've been doing ourselves personally, our relationship has made this process actually enjoyable, which is shocking. Yeah, you know, it's been absolutely shocking that we haven't had any breakdowns over it or anything. We're able to just clearly communicate to each other what we're feeling, what we're stressed about, what we're not stressed about. And it's just making this process so much less stressful than I would have imagined if we'd attempted this even six months ago. So that's just a little side note, but really important to note that it's allowing us to make level headed decisions about some of these things that we need to either keep or get rid of or recycle or sell or whatever it is.

So this is one of clearly one of the most stressful times for people in general having to move. And, and we're, you know, we're not even at the end stages of it where we're actually like, we've packed a lot of boxes, we've gotten rid of a lot of things, but we still need to get our house sold and do the rest of the packing and unloading. And it's so stressful for. It has been so stressful for us in the past and Paul is like a pro at moving but. And I was pretty solid at it too because we both moved a fair bit in our, in our lives. But this is the longest I've lived in one spot in my life.

Me too.

And so both of us have been in this home for 10 years and we've never been somewhere for that long in our entire lives. And there's an interesting mindset that I noticed with you when we first settled down. You retired from sport and you, I can't count how many times you had relayed to me how you really wanted to stop living out of a suitcase. You'd be living in some country for maybe a year to three or four years and then move to another one or be going back to Canada and then back to whatever country and back and forth it was. And you were always some level living out of a box or leaving some things here and there. And you were so excited to settle into a home and, and make it your home and have your things and have your tools and have a garage and have all these things and you've had that for the last 10 years. But it's insane how much. And we don't have like a super cluttered house of, you know, Rooms that are just full or anything like that. We don't have any room that's like that. But with five kids and just seven of us, we've accumulated so many things. And then there's so many sentimental things. Like, you know, I see the little, you know, treasure box on the dresser that you've had since you were a kid, or the jerseys that you carried through so many different pro teams or national teams. And it's like some of these things are so such a memento or a meaningful item that represents a time or all the medals. We did that post the other day about, you had all these medals, and I had all these medals. They're from years and years of competing in different things, and they were so valuable to us at the time. And now we're just kind of like, it's stuff. It's just more stuff. And we want. We're moving into a house that's probably a quarter of the size of this house. So that means, like, three quarters of everything we have has to go. And we, you know, we don't have a garage. And it's just. There's. There's so many things that we'll be building a garage, but it's going to be so much different. And that's really in my space to understand that. Okay, if we've got this much stuff, 3/4 of it needs to go. And that's daunting when you're not sure if everything you move is going to fit in the new place. And you don't want that feeling of clutter in a new space. You want that feeling of. Of spaciousness and cleanliness and simplicity and minimal. That's where we're kind of going, is more of a minimal kind of feel.

And I think our regular listeners know that just looking at the 12:30 challenge last year, we spent an entire month on purging. And that's just something that you've done forever, basically on a seasonal basis. Right.

I go through the clothes with all the kids.

Relatively speaking, from what I've seen in my limited experience, we don't have nearly as much stuff as many people do, but we still have a ton of stuff. So I want to drill into it with you here. Let's talk about the medals, for example. Why. Why did you keep them, and were they hard to throw away?

Okay, here's what happened there. I kept my medals because I was very proud that for almost every one of those events, there were. There were half marathons. There's a marathon, there's eco adventure races. Obstacle course races. There's so many different events there. And I kept them because in every one of them, in every one of them, I was a top 10 finisher. And in a lot of them, I was like a top five or a top three finisher. And I even did events in Turkey, and it was just. I had, like, my. I finished sixth in the half marathon in Manitoba, which is a pretty big event in Manitoba. Like, there were just. There's a lot of things that took so much work and that metal represented. And I put a piece of athletic tape on the back, and I'd write the date and the place and the time of my finish. And I put a massive amount of work into placing and performing that well for those events. And that medal at the end was the reminder of the event and everything I put in. Okay, and. But. But then I saw you throwing yours out and I was like, what are you doing? I have this, like, mini panic for you. And I was like, what are you doing? Because, you know, some of your medals are from international matches or from, you know, I know you kept some of the best, best medals, some of the ones that are very significant, but there were just so many medals that both of us had. And I saw you getting rid of your medals and what are you doing? And you be like, well, I don't. I don't need this. And that just made me stop. Like, well, I wanted to start convincing you that you did and how important they were and just, you know, that this was valuable and other people haven't accomplished this in the world. I wanted to start convincing you that you were wrong in letting go. In letting go of something that was just a piece of metal and a lanyard. But when I saw you getting rid of them, and we were on such a roll that day in, like, giving things to Goodwill and throwing things away and just like repurposing and all of those things. And I thought. And I saw a bunch of mind medals. It was like, within five minutes, we were in the basement. I came across of a whole bunch of mine. And I was like, oh. And we. I was like, okay, mine have to go too. I was motivated by the fact that you could get rid of yours. And I thought, what are they going to do? We're going to bring them to a new home and store them in a box somewhere, not look at them. We don't have a trophy room or anything like that. We could legitimately put a bunch of trophies up in some form or another, but we're not going to have a Trophy room. And so I was just like, let it go. And we could decorate it in a workout space or a gym space and use the metals in there, but they weren't that important to show off. Like, you're so humble about your career. You just. For listeners to understand. I know I haven't really said it this way before, but, you know, out of your position in the world at your prime, you were the best in the world at what you did, or if not the best, maybe top five or top three at what you did in the entire world in your position. And that's no small feat to be that good at what you do. And. And I was watching you kind of just go, well, this isn't what's important to me anymore. What's important to you are not things, but who you are as a human and how you affect other people and the relationships that you have. And. And I was watching you make that distinction between stuff and. And there's nothing wrong with displaying amazing accomplishments. I have all the, you know, respect in the world for someone who accomplishes something and puts it on the wall or. Or frames it or mounts it or any of those things. But you chose your things, and those medals weren't it, and you defined which ones were important to you. And then everything basically was easy to let go of, and it was so much easier for me to. Once I saw that, that you were. And.

The reason I have to ask the question is because it's what's going on underneath that. Of what purpose does that metal really have? Is it. Is it to have you recapture a feeling that you want by thinking about it? You know, what's the underlying value and the reason to truly keep it? Is it to. To look good for people to see, hey, look at these medals I won on the wall? Or is it to, you know, I mean, the things that I've hung on to after we've done this purge are there because they're just great reminders of story and an experience and a memory of going through a process with a team or winning something big that took years and years of effort. And so for. So I have that attachment which, you know, the reason for this show today, to that part of my life, that process. It's a reminder of that. But the. But keeping all the. The extras and the. The extra stuff with it just doesn't seem at all worthwhile. It's like you said, you don't. You don't look at it. You don't. I'm not drawing anything from it. Why. Why Take up more space and have more clutter with it.

It just, you know what it is for me and for most people, it's that this. This proves, just because of my background and just feeling so unworthy for so long, for me, it's this. It proves that I'm special. It proves that I'm good enough. It proves that, you know, it's. It's the same thing. And, you know, for us, like, there's an ego thing that. That is involved with the neighborhood we live in, the house that we have, and going to a smaller house, it's like, if anything, when you are advancing in your career, which we both are, and we're going to different levels with anything, you're supposed to get a bigger house and a nicer house and a this. And we are getting, I think, a nicer house, but it's much smaller. Yeah, for sure. And it's. We're not. We're not spending more on another house. We're. We're really being conscious financially as well. And so there's this ego part and this. This part of I am special and I am worthy if I have this bigger house or if I have this metal or if I have, like. And there's a. There's a generational gap and difference, too, because I'm noticing that with our kids, they have the twins, Xavier, Raina, they have so much less attachment to stuff. Maybe part of it, except for me. If she's got a lot of attachment, I think that has to do with the age she is as well. But the older ones, they're fine to go without all sorts of things. They just kind of. They're not, you know, they would never cling on to a certain chair or a certain. I don't know, they're just so much less likely to care about the stuff. And I noticed that, too, because we have my great grandmother's buffet and dining room table. And as much as I want to keep it, because it's been part of my family for a very long time and I have very fond memories of my great grandmother, it's not going to fit in this new house. We don't have a big dining room or anything. It's a very open concept, so it's not going to be able to go. But when I told that to my mom, she's talking about putting it in storage and paying for the storage for it. And I'm thinking to myself, okay, it might be three years before one of our kids might be ready to have a dining room set. And the Amount of money that you'd pay in three years. Let's just, you know, for $3,000 in a heartbeat. Let's just say easily $3,000 in a heartbeat, you'd never. Even though it's a beautiful antique dining room set, you'd never get that much for it. But it has this to her, it has this priceless value because it's sentimental. And it was okay that she wasn't with it because it was with me and still in the family. So there's this generational difference. Whereas Raina, if I, you know, I talked to her about it, and she's just like, why we wouldn't be ready for it for a few years at least. She's not going to take a dining room set. And so it just doesn't make any sense logically. But there's this. There's this emotional attachment, and to my mom, even more so than me, and to me, I'm just like. And none of our kids have memories of my great grandma. They didn't know her, so it's just a thing. But we put all these memories and all these feelings into the thing, as though that thing is going to preserve those feelings for us and that memory for us when it's within us, it's not in that thing. The thing doesn't matter.

Do you? This might be a tough question, but if we think of categories of our stuff and what we're going through and, you know, the, you know, there's the heirlooms and, like this dining room table or. Yeah, a Rolex watch that's being passed from father to son to his son to grandson, passed on in generations. There's certain things that are non negotiables or just, you know, you would never consider getting rid of. What would you say? It's story that's the unifying thread. With those type of items that they just. There's so much story and history to them that they can't be let go. Even though, like you've said, you know, this table has, you know, if you were to sell it, has no value or it doesn't have the value of storing it or whatever it may be. What. What is it for you that makes something impossible to let go of versus something that's easy to let go of?

Well, right now in this conversation, I'm trying to think of something that I couldn't let go of, that I just.

Your wedding ring. Go on.

You know, it's interesting that you say that, because I was on the plane. Yes. Last night, I was on the plane. And I was thinking about, you know, giving things away and I was thinking about the rings on my hand. And I could. Even though that I have sentimental value in some of the rings that I'm wearing. I would not give away my wedding ring, honey, but the other rings that I'm wearing, I thought, you know, if somebody liked it, I would. I would for sure give it to them because I'm not as attached as I once was. But I don't, you know, everything's the same. The moment that thing is gone, nothing's different. Nothing different. We might have this fondness for it, but everything's still okay. It's not a. I don't know, maybe because I'm more spiritual now and I have more of a value and a connection with people or whether it's the universe or whatever. Maybe it's that and a gratitude for that, but not necessarily. Things are becoming less and less important to me and. And then I start looking at, like for instance, I think one of the things I have a harder, harder time to get rid of is some clothing. And I realize that the reason that is, is because I associate. I was a kid who was the smallest, the smallest in my class amongst my friends, you know, and so I got hand me downs from. From my friends who are the same age as me. And so I'm wearing their clothes when I was a kid. And so clothes to me, even though I. I have like a lot of clothes, but I don't, you know, and I don't spend a lot on clothes. I'm very efficient or frugal that way. But I do have some good items. And it's like I have this attachment to them. I don't want to get rid of them. And it's a thing that comes up for me. And I think it's completely because when I was a kid, it was so rare for me to get new clothes or have nice clothes that I really liked. And I was embarrassed when I was wearing my friend's clothes at school and they would point it out, oh, that was my old this or that in front of other friends at an age when you're say 8 or 9 or 10 when. When those things start to matter. And so now it's like, I think that there's an unusual attachment to those clothes or they remind me of certain times. Like I'd keep things that were from over 10 years ago when we were in Turkey, because it reminded me of, you know, when we were first together. And it's the reminder of it right.

And I would just add too, that knowing you and myself, we both, we both hate waste, we both treasure the environment. And so we don't want to have a materialistic life of just collecting things and throwing away things. It just, it's contrary to what we believe in. But we also, on the flip side, you know, I'm willing to invest in something, pay a little more for something I want to keep for a long time.

So you like. So there's those things, high quality things.

Well, yeah. And, and you, you do as well. Like I think about maybe the fluvog boots I got you or they're definitely expensive, but I get you those knowing that, you know, you're going to be using them for years, that it's not fashionable this winter and then they're gone. And so, yeah, I think those type of items that we're accumulating would be hard to get rid of because to get rid of them is to break our agreement to ourselves or our promise that, you know, I'm buying this for the long haul. This is something that I'm investing in. I'm going to pay a little more because I'm going to use it until it falls apart. And it's not a fashion or style thing.

Yeah.

And so that also, I think plays into, especially with the clothes and the things we're wearing on it daily basis, which. Because we wear clothes on a daily basis.

So there was a site. Oh my gosh. There was a site. I think it's called. It's like a Facebook group. I think it's called don't buy anything or you don't need to buy. I can't remember. I think it was called something like that. You don't need to buy. And you go to this site and you can. I gotta find out what it's called. You go to the site and you can, you can post what you're getting rid of and it's usually a new thing. So for instance, someone posted, they had three brand new pie crusts that they weren't going to use because they decided to make the pie crust from scratch anyway. They post it on this site and somebody can go and pick them up within the day and. Yeah, but it's just an, it's just like a, you know, a pickup kind of thing. Instead of having it go through the process of goodwill or whatever it is, or it might be something that's not disposable but perishable. Yeah, perishable. Maybe something that's perishable so that you can, you can Offload it right away to someone who really wants and needs it. And so I think the site or the group is called Don't Buy anything or don't need to Buy. And it's incredible because in this world of, you know, just make a new crappy piece of something and everybody buy it and consume it. It drives me crazy. Like, it drives me crazy to see the gifts that little kids get all the time. And just this. This unstoppable world of plastic and going, okay, like, this is insane, and it doesn't make any sense. So it feels really good, and it feels so much lighter. We've gotten rid of. I'd say, well, you know, more, because you've been dealing with the van loads, but I would say at least four van loads, Six van loads of stuff. Either to Goodwill. Mostly to Goodwill.

Yeah. I've done three full trips to Goodwill.

Okay. And then one to the try recycling.

And one to the try recycling. Yep.

So four. Four full van loads are gone. And that's not including the furniture. Like, the furniture we have in our bedroom is furniture that I refinished that was my grandmother's. So, you know, there's. Yeah, there's a lot of things that we're really conscious of, and this is an interesting process because it still pushes us to the zone of, oh, I want to keep that, because it still works, but it's a piece of crap, and it always was, so get rid of it, and someone else might be able to use it. Or, you know, it's that fine line between not wanting to waste something and knowing that you're hanging on to something too long and knowing that, you know, you don't need it anymore. Like, there's so many.

It's us watching out for each other for going too far with that positive strength. We'll call it a strength or habit of getting something, investing it in the long run, keeping it for too long. But all those things do hit a point where, okay, you've had that for 10 years now.

Right.

We can retire the sweater. You've got the money. You're absolutely winning on that. Yeah. So it's. It's the check on each other. The thing you reminded me of is talking about kids gifts, is that I really love our trend in the recent years of shifting with all of our kids for the main Christmas present to be an experience.

Yeah.

Instead of things, it's doing something as a family that's memorable, that creates just memories and bonding that go so much further than a gift typically. I mean, some gifts are special and have that power as well. But the shared experience with all the kids together at an NBA game or a theater event or something like that, I love those times. Those really make the holidays for me. Doing things like that as opposed to just giving them something, a toy or something that lasts for a year, gets broken or they don't like anymore and it's gone.

Yeah.

Well, it's just. And you know, you see it posted a lot of just experiences over things. And I think it's really important to consider that that's what life is. It's those experiences with others and being out in nature and using a body and not having the latest video game or whatever it is that takes you away from connection and people and growth and all those good things.

Yeah, yeah. The question.

Go ahead, go ahead. If you have a question, I have another one for you. Coming back.

No, I was just thinking that, like, one of the questions that comes up for us in doing this move is, is this appropriate for the new space we're going into? Like, we have a vision for the new space that is. Has a standard. And so, yeah, we have a working filter.

You're right.

Bingo. And so there's some of these times where there's something that's on the fence. Maybe it's a picture frame or maybe it's a, you know, like, who knows what it is, but does it make the cut? And it might be something that is kind of valuable. Like, there were so many. I had so many martini glasses and like, I have all this crystal, like, unbelievable.

And when's the last time you had a martini? Right?

It's the right. So I basically got rid of them. And, you know, there's so many things and. But then it's like, then if it's something that I know that I really do like, or hung on to for a long time, is it gonna make the cut? And so many times it's just like, no, I can't even see this in that space that I'm envisioning. And if I can't, then it's going to, period. So, yeah.

Yeah. I think a big takeaway from this conversation is that if you are looking at purging or assessing your attachment to things, it's great to have a partner who knows you or a friend or someone who can give you that objective point of view and who understands how you think so that they can, you know, either buy into your Arkham to keep something or, you know, call you on your. On your crap and say, no, you really don't need this, because what's evident to me is that theme of, for both of us, of wanting to keep something. And martini glasses you just mentioned, they're these beautiful glasses that we have that, you know, you don't want to keep something for a what if event really. But. Yeah, but the problem, knowing how you think that it would kill you to buy a one off martini glass for a party would feel horrible. So knowing that, knowing that that paradox is in play of you've got these things that you don't want, you don't use, but you might one day, one year. But we haven't, you know, in the last five years at a martini party, we've never have. You may have before we were together, but there's this beautiful thing that has value, but it's hard to give away because it would hurt so much to have to replace it for that event that you might have been wanting to do in your mind. And, and it's that struggle, that friction, that really having someone else to talk you through it realistically, I think is a key thing to this.

It's not about having the means to buy it. I know that. That's right.

Right. Not at all. No.

It's about the wastefulness that's the thing for me.

Yeah, it's bigger. Exactly.

Yeah. It's a different kind of beast. And then realizing too that there's been some stuff past to me from my grandma who died and that was hers and they're, you know, more crystal or linen or this and that. And it's just like I, I gotta.

You know, it's tough.

It's gotta be a stop point somewhere. And you know, I don't know what that looks like exactly yet until we get in there.

But.

Yeah, no, it's, it's pretty intense. But I think the biggest takeaway, people are not moving because there's not everybody who's listening. Nobody might be moving, but we are. I wish, I wish everybody could go through a forced move really quickly so that they're forced to get rid of a whole bunch of stuff so that they can have the feeling that we have of that breath and sigh of relief that comes with having less stuff. It is so much lighter and we're not even, we're not even halfway through our process because we still have to go through the whole move and get rid of pieces of furniture and all these things. And I wish people could have a forced move so they can legitimately offload the stuff and feel the lightness of not having to just be, be weighed down by so many things.

Yeah, it's that feeling we had from the 123 challenge. Purge Month on steroids. It's just.

Yeah, big time.

Taking it up 10x. And so, yeah, it's such a great feeling.

Big time.

I want to throw you one curveball before we wrap up here.

Oh, yeah.

Are you ready, coach?

Yeah, I can handle.

Okay, so talk to me about attachment to emotions or states. How do we break those attachments? We've been talking about attachment to stuff, but everybody listening probably has some attachment to a mood or a way of being. And how do you recognize that and snap out of it?

Okay, well, I was thinking more physical things in this attachment episode, so I wasn't really thinking in this zone.

But I can tell you, I know I wanted to.

That's why it is a curveball. But I'll tell you something that I've been working on for myself, because it's just I. You know, I could use examples with clients or athletes, but I think for myself, my. What I would call an indulgent emotion would be anger. And it's taken me a long time to learn that. That it is my. It's that go to emotion that I always thought was, you know, I guess I thought that it was this thing that was there when. When necessary because, you know, that would be something that you would get angry about or, you know, that it served.

It served you in the moment.

Oh, my gosh. Like, it served me so much through so many hard things when I couldn't afford to. I couldn't afford to crumble. And so anger got me through a lot of things. But in all the work that I've done with other people and certainly for myself, this attachment to this emotion, a very indulgent emotion, when I peel it back and unlayer it, realize that anger is just protecting fear. And if you really peel back why I'm angry or why someone else is angry, there's some sort of fear underneath that, and that's where the anger is coming from. And at times, for me, having gone through abusive situations and just some pretty awful things, I survived by not succumbing to my fear. And the survival technique for a lot of things was anger. And it pushed me through. It served me so much that then it became a habit of if something didn't go right or something was going wrong in our household or. Or something was wrong in our relationship, anger was the go to. I didn't go into sadness. I didn't go into. I didn't go into. I was rarely buffering. Or numbing myself with, say, substance or anymore. Anyway, I did when I was younger. But then I realized that, well, now the new buffering or the new numbing to the emotion that I couldn't handle feeling. The emotions I couldn't handle feeling, which might have been vulnerability or fear or really intimate connection. And this other emotion was a tool to avoid the things that scared, which. Avoid feeling fear.

Right.

Avoid feeling, you know, avoid going in those places. And so attachment to that really didn't serve me. I even got to a point when you and I separated that I was so angry with you for just so many things for so long in my mind. I thought I got to a point where we were separated. I was like trying to work through things in letters and they just were so toxic. And I realized in writing them that I was so angry. And then I got to a point where I was astounded. I was shocked at how angry I was. I didn't even realize I was that angry until I was processing it. And I was afraid to let go of that anger. Because in my mind, if I let go of the anger, then I thought it meant I didn't care about our relationship or I didn't care about you if I let go of this anger. And somehow I had that association. So there was massive attachment to the anger. Because if I let go of it, then I must not really care about what was going on. And it wasn't that I needed to let go of it to really find that I was avoiding being afraid, I was avoiding being vulnerable. I was avoiding going through the next process. I was avoiding all that. So really, yeah, I wasn't expecting that curve ball. But attachment, it's a thing, that's for sure. We're attached to outcomes, we're attached to emotions, we're attached to stuff. We're attached to all these things, and they are typically that attachment in and of itself is typically some way of padding ourselves up to protect ourselves from something that we are afraid of or some vulnerability that we don't want exposure exposed. And really, when we let go of those attachments and make a choice, choose who we want to be, what we want to be surrounded by in our environment, choose how we're going to think and how we're going to feel, then we have true power in our lives. We've empowered ourselves. Instead of being attached to things or. Or even patterns attached to certain ways of thinking, very much attachment to certain thoughts or pattern thinking, those types of things don't serve us. We lose our power. We Lose our power in succumbing to that type of the urges, of the anger or the needing of the thing. It is very, very much from a place of scarcity.

Yeah. I love what you just said. And it brings it back full circle because what you're touching on underlies our attachment to stuff. Just to hammer it home that this is why the metals are going in the garbage. Because I don't need the medals to know that I'm worthy of love. I don't need the medals to know that I'm a good person. I don't need the medals to know that I'm okay.

Yeah.

And hanging on to that stuff, it was like the opposite of that. It was. Yeah. Look at what I've done. Look at me. I'm okay. This shows it. This proves it. No, what I'm doing right now with you, talking to you, being in the moment with the people I'm with, that is all that matters. And so it's. It's that same underlying thing. It's exactly what you've said of our attachment to certain emotional states or ways of being, our story or our things. It's all there to, you know, it's. It's our defense. It's to prop up and protect us. And at the end of the day, you know, we have gratitude for everything, and we are just enjoying the experience and each other and just confident in knowing that we're good enough as we are. And for sure we can keep working to improve. But, you know, we learned at landmark. This is it right now, right here. And it's perfect. Every moment. Yeah, it's cool. So thank you for sharing all that. That was. That was awesome. And I think it really brought the point home beautifully.

So thank you for curve balling me. Yeah, curve ball.

I'm a good pitcher. All right, so give me a question. I get my question back now from.

The book of questions, you gotta pick a number.

I do.

Yeah.

It's 2020. It's January.

No, it's February.

Holy smoke, smokes. It's already February. Let's go with two.

Oh, that's early. See if I can find that number. Ooh.

Oh, no. Here we go. Here we go.

Do you believe in ghosts or evil spirits? Would you. Would you be willing to spend a night alone in a remote house that is. That is supposedly haunted? Do you believe in ghosts or evil spirits?

So evil. Okay, hold on. Evil spirits, ghosts or evil spirits? Okay, so I'm going to just answer. Yes, you do.

Okay.

But I want to clarify that I don't even know. Maybe not ghost in the sense of like a Hollywood ghost. Not a. I. I just, you know, we. We felt more connected to the universe lately and just everything is connected between people and the environment. And, you know, it's something that we just believe in and seen evidence of. So that when we die, I. I don't know where that energy that we possess goes, obviously, but I can absolutely entertain the idea that there's things that we don't understand. And with energy and Hollywood ghost per se and haunting and being evil, I feel like that's a stretch. But at the same time, there's a lot of weird stuff out there. I'm open to it, so I'm gonna just go with a yes.

Okay. And would you be willing to spend a night alone in a remote house that is supposedly haunted? Alone night, Remember? I want you to picture this.

I know, I.

It's a night alone.

My mind would go wild. Remote.

So it's like, it's remote. It's miles away from anywhere else and you're alone.

That's like. That's a. That's not like you can walk out the door and be on a street and there's street out. Ah, he. I want to say that I would.

Well, right now I don't believe, but.

I don't know if push came to shove, and depending on the information I had about the type of activity at this place, I don't know if I would actually be able to. To do it. Part of me would badly want to do it. Just to flat out confirm for myself, yes, ghosts exist. So they don't. But because it would, it would, you know, if it was a horrible experience, I would know that 100 ghosts exist. So that would be very. That'd be a big carrot to do it. But I know I would be scared shitless because my mind would just get going and I don't know. I. I honestly can't answer. I would like to say I want to and would try, but I don't know if I'd be able to follow through.

Yeah, I'm gonna say.

I'm gonna say I would. I would.

Do you remember what you said?

I would do it. I would do it. I would do it. I would. Yeah.

Have to find out. Do you remember what you said about the. Do you remember Eddie Murphy? Get out.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Out. Yeah, I would. Listen.

Why does a white person stick around? I don't get that.

Yep.

If some spirit comes along and says, get out, you run.

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