EP80 TJ Sanders - Volleyball Olympian

This is episode 80 of the Empowered Athlete podcast. Today in the Empowered Athlete Podcast, we are thrilled to bring you TJ Sanders, volleyball legend, superstar setter for the Canadian national team. And when we recorded this episode, he was on his way to the Tokyo 2020 Olympics after having competed there in 2016 with the national team at Rio. And now things have changed. This was recorded before the outbreak, before the pandemic. Now the games are in 2021. But the message that TJ shares in this episode hits home even more today than it did when we recorded. It's about mindset and positivity and taking things day by day and having gratitude for the great things around us. It's a fantastic message and so timely in what's going on around us in the world. So please sit back and enjoy this recording with TJ and share with those, you know, who need a little bit of bright light in their day with all the COVID darkness going on. Enjoy.

If you know anything about Paul and myself, you know that we're hard driving, high performing, very competitive. But you may not know that we're also really into our best health and best health practices and that's included essential oils into our lives. Especially since one of my girls has had eczema, both have peanut allergies and I started really paying attention to the toxins that were coming into our home and how we can be healthier overall. So that's how essential oils came into our lives. Especially after I got really sick and my whole system was shut down and suppressed with pneumonia and. And they've made a huge difference in our lives. So with this pandemic, with all the social distancing that's going on, I'm going to offer a free essential oils class. Some of you have oils, you might want to learn a little more about them. Some of you don't have oils, and.

You might want to learn a little.

More about them and wonder what they can actually do. So that's what this little 30 minute session will be all about. It's on April 21, that's a Tuesday, 6pm Eastern. And if you're in the local area near London, then I'll pop you a little sample so you can participate online from your home. And we will teach you a little about how oils can make a positive difference in your life. You can ask the questions and just get real about whether they work, whether they don't, what they work for, what they don't work for, and that kind of thing. So join me in that online class to register and it is just the email in the show notes. Info powerconditioning.com that's info powerconditioning.com and I can't wait to see you live in person online on a Zoom call on February 21st at 6pm Eastern. I'll send you the zoom link once you email me@info powerconditioning.com Stay well, everybody. Stay healthy, keep loving on each other and I will talk to you soon. Welcome to the Empowered Athlete Podcast, created to support athletes in their pursuit of excellence and inspire others toward their best lives. Hosted by Kari Schneider, coach to top performers in sport and life, and Paul Durden, former national and professional volleyball player.

Hey everyone.

Welcome to the Empowered Athlete Podcast.

Paul and Khari joined by the famous.

The one, the only, T.J. sanders. T.J. thank you for making the time. Great to chat with you. Great to see you.

Hey, my pleasure. Always good to chat and obviously especially with you two. So couple of other.

We're excited to have you and especially excited to have you coming off of a recent qualification for the Olympics.

Congratulations.

Yeah, congratulations. That has to feel pretty good. But you're a vet at this. So before we dive into those more recent events, you are a professional and national level volleyball player. So tell us a little bit about your background. Were you always into volleyball or did it start with something else? What brought you to the sport?

Yeah, so originally I was a pretty big basketball player. That was kind of my hopes and dreams. I was going to go to Duke, then I was going to go to the NBA. That was my, as my path from age eight. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So we've all, we've all been there. You can relate. Yeah. And then, you know, initially I got into volleyball when my older sister started playing for Forest City, the club there. And I saw it for the first time. I was like, oh, this is pretty cool and ended up trying it out. And then actually this is where we kind of connect. The first time I've ever seen or I ever saw like high level Volleyball was in 2007 when the Canadian national team came to London because of this guy over there and played Finland that time. So I was actually, I believe I was the sweat wiping guy, like the little kid that ran out and wiped out the sweat. And I remember like it was just such a, I'd never seen, I'd seen some university volleyball, but really not that much back then. There wasn't that much online, you know, like YouTube, you couldn't just find a million clips in a second. So it was kind of my first experience Seeing like really high level volleyball and I remember just being like completely blown away. Like I. The speed, the strength, the power, all of that, I was really taken back. And I remember after the first night on the ride home with my parents, I remember being like, okay, just kidding, like, that's what I'm doing. I'm going to do that for my. The rest of my life and that's what it's going to look like. And they obviously always bring that up, but it's like it was a major turning point from, you know, really diving into basketball and being like pretty obsessed with that to being pretty obsessed with volleyball.

How old were you then?

I would have been going in. I think it was, it was in the summer, so it was the summer between grade nine and grade ten.

Okay. So I just got to say there's something to wiping floors because I literally had the same experience. I was playing with a provincial team. This was pre Barcelona because the team went in 92, so it would have been 91 or 90. I was in grade 10 or 11. They were playing World League in Toronto against Cuba, against France. And I was wiping sweat off the floor, just eating it up. Being so close to the action here in the trash, through the net, seeing it live, there's nothing like it. And yeah, I was already highly motivated to be a volleyball player and that just took it up to the next notch.

And there is something to be said. You're literally on the floor. You know, you're a kid, you get to see like this insane action in front of you. So that's the tip. If anybody takes. If you, if you're in grade nine to 12 and you want, yeah, get some rags. I think I still have them at home or something. I think I was like, you can't throw these away. I'm pretty sure they washed them, which I think I was upset about at the time.

But.

We'Re like purging our house right now, so we've gotten rid of a lot of that nostalgia stuff that we hung onto this because it means this to us, you know. Oh yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. So at that time, what were you. You remember looking up and being just. Just immersed in the intensity and the power and everything that you loved about what you were experiencing to that you really hadn't seen before. What was it in you that you felt that when you saw this? What did you want? What was it that you wanted that you thought at that time? Do you remember?

Right, Yeah. I was kind of just in so much awe That I all of a sudden looked at volleyball in a different way. I think like up until that point I knew what super high level hockey was, what high level basketball was, all those kind of things. So I knew what to expect from the best in the world. And I didn't know what that was for volleyball. So in seeing that all of a sudden it kind of just shifted my entire focus on sport. And then it was, okay, how do I become the best in the world at volleyball? That was like literally, I remember that was my objective from grade 10, was to just be the best in the world.

When you think of so many corporate people or entrepreneurs or athletes, they usually get later in their careers before they ask themselves the question, what do I need to do to become world class? What do I need to do to be the best in the world at what I do? And it strikes me that the people who are typically so good or become so good in their sport, they've asked themselves that much earlier than the average person. They've started to ask that. You asked that, you've asked that. I've seen this over and over where they start to say that to themselves, what do I need to do? And then instead of because they don't know what to do, they start to watch the people who are that, who are what they want, and they start to model after those people. And the answers start to come because they see what the best in the world do, because they're studying them. But most other people, the average person who's in business, who's in sport, who's in whatever, they're somewhere mid career or later in their career before they've gotten to that question to ask themselves, what do I need to do to be the best in the world? Or what do I need to do to be world class at my craft? So it's interesting to me to see so many clients and so many athletes and to have you have asked that at an age when you have no clue really about why you just, there's something there and something sparks and then boom. It's like an uncontrollable desire to go for that thing.

Yeah. And it was almost, it was almost subconscious. Like I don't know if I was sitting there as a 13 year old kid being like jotting notes on what it was gonna take to get there. I just saw it and then everything aligned with that and I started to like embody what that meant. You know, like if I was then training, training would look different for me because every action I did had to be up to the standard of getting to the best in the world, which I think then looking back on, like my younger years probably made me a little bit annoying to play with or a little bit like stubborn or a little bit things like that. Because I kind of had a. Obviously, if I'm expecting this, I was demanding it from myself, but then I also probably demanded it from my surroundings, which can be a lot when you're like, you know, 14 year old kids or whatever. But yeah, it's pretty funny how that shift happened. And I think that that's really interesting too because I even still find that happening in everything I do now. And I'm curious what your guys's opinion is on where that comes from or why that is relevant. I realize that the interview is kind of of me, but I'm also curious on what your take is on how that kind of plays out.

One of the things, I mean, those same traits, he knows he's had those same exact traits. But one of the things that I've seen definitively, whether it's in a sports scenario or different, that when you know something that you want so badly and you understand something that's different than what other people understand, there's an easy level of frustration that comes up really quickly and really easily. But there's not necessarily the emotional development to have the patience or understanding for the surrounding. People who aren't where you at are at with the same drive. So for instance, if he was practicing with people who weren't putting out the same level of effort or weren't putting out, you know, whatever, there wasn't that other emotional stability to say, okay, they might not be in the same space or they might have had a family member lost or they might, you know, whatever it is, there was just no tolerance for someone else not putting out the same level. Whereas with maturity or with a greater emotional understanding, then you know how to elicit a greater state from a teammate instead of just thinking down on them, which doesn't help them or you, but instead you can elevate them because you are showing leadership qualities instead of showing just stubborn frustration athlete qualities that they're not working as hard as I am. And it's two different things. It's two different beasts and it's a distinction between the two. And it comes with the level of personal, emotional and mindset growth to develop that leadership quality. He's now in work. Go ahead.

Yeah, no, I just can say I think that the coolest thing, I guess in my sort of journey as well is like that was my early stage with volleyball and then kind of my early stage with the national team as well. And then now I'm kind of on the flip side of it where maybe physically I can't perform as much or all those kind of things. So I do have to elicit this other ability to maybe change state or to do other things in order to help the team still perform at a certain level or like exceed their expectations of their performance, which has been like a pretty cool revelation as I've kind of progressed through the national team. But then I guess it's also for you, Paul. Like, what? Where do you think that want comes from? Like, for instance, I see that, I see you guys playing and I'm like, whoa, like something clicks, right? And all of a sudden there's this desire and passion and like obsession about it. But I'm so fascinated about like, where that came from and it could have been. I'm also a 14 year old kid, so maybe it's just like you are more attracted to certain things in a certain way. But yeah, I'm just curious, like, where you got your edge and why I got mine.

So I wouldn't have been able to give you the right answer to this question even two years ago just because of the amount of personal development work Kari and I have been doing and, you know, Tony Robbins training and landmark and podcast and everything. Just trying to go as a grow as a human being. But I know now that I was operating under a. Basically, if I'm going to use Tony's method, it's this driving question of do I look good? This underlying question I'm always asking, do I look good? Are people gonna like me? And using that fear of not looking.

Good.

To drive everything I'm doing in every situation and being in this incredible feedback loop to feed that monster. So if you play well as an athlete, people notice and you get that.

Hey, you played great.

Yeah, I did okay. Someone's showing something for me. They're giving me connection. I have meaning now, right? So I fed this beast of identity and looking good and very well as I progressed. I was lucky to have great coaches and things and just kind of found I was comfortable on the court competing and had some physical tools and then being recognized for that led me to work harder at it, and then having success led me to work harder at it. And it's just this cycle. But when it all stopped, I was a mess because you've taken away, you know, my only vehicle for having worth in my mind for other people. So it's incredibly powerful to drive me. And it was, I mean, you saw, drove me for 17 years to do the best I could every day, but when it's gone, what's left? And you know, it's been years recovering from that and figuring out who I really am.

So.

That'S truly the right answer. That's what drove me when I look at it. But on the surface it's, yeah, it's just the positive feedback and competing and having success and realizing, making the connection that if I'm extremely professional, if I work harder than the next guy, things are going to work out. So all those positive elements of it, but unfortunately underlying it is the negative of the self doubt, the lack of probably real confidence, lack of connection with other people.

So that's, that's super, super cool also because for me to relate to, like, I look back and I've talked on a few other podcasts about this. If I look back to why I also got into sport, like my dad is a phys ed teacher and I was around sport all the time, but I started to notice from like a really young age that if I got good at the sport, then I would have more friends or more people would want to hang out with me or people wanted, would want to be like me or something like that. And this was from like super young age. And then I saw that kind of develop into like more competitive fields where now I'm playing like super competitive basketball or super competitive whatever sport. And I continued to need to be the best because I truly equated that to my personal value. Right? It was like, okay, if I can be the best on the court, then all of a sudden I'm the best person, which then people want to be around me, hang out with me and stuff like that. So that's pretty funny because it's like very similar to mine. And also then when this kind of injury, I mean, I mean I kind of recognized it before because I started to feel like after a loss, personally, like degraded, you know, especially you obviously understand the lifestyle of overseas and stuff like that. You. I would lose. I'd go back to my apartment, I'd be by myself for the next, you know, 36 hours until the next practice or whatever. And I would just sit there feeling like as a human, I was a worse human. And then I'd go and I train and work and work, work, and we go and we'd win. And then the 36 hours after that I'd be like, oh, I'm a better human now. And I'm like, wait, this isn't really lining up very well. Like, I don't really love how this is connecting. And then I have this injury that basically, like, sidelines me, and I can't walk, and I'm like, oh, no. What is my value as a human now? So it's just cool to hear that and be able to relate a little bit just to.

Do you mind if I share a little more deeper about you, though?

That's why we're here.

Okay. He's very open now. When he'd come off of a loss professionally, the kind of anger that he would have and the kind of. Just like he hated to lose and same kind of thing, everything of who he didn't realize it at the time. And, you know, anyone around him might equate it to, oh, he's so competitive, or it's so, you know, like, equate it to a really good thing about sport. But underlying that, to even take his. His description a little bit deeper, you're looking at someone who grew up in a household where there was a lot of dynamic going on around the needs of his brother. And for him, it was like, whatever. Whatever you needed to do or whoever you needed to be for the situation to not cause any problems.

Yeah, it couldn't be a burden.

Couldn't that. That's his. Yeah. Like, I'm. I'm not. Couldn't be a burden because there was so much need that his brother had at the time. And, you know, this is something we'll probably talk more in depth about at some point or another, but his brother took his own life just three years ago, and it was, you know, a lifetime of dealing with the struggles that his brother had. But who he became was from a child who, you know, just wanted to look good. And when we say looking good, it's not a. It's not an aesthetic. It's a. It's a be who you need to be in order for everyone to be okay and everyone to like you. And, you know, that's why he's always so accommodating. Well, what do you want to do? And it was. It was always about. That was his way of being who he needed to be, to feel like he was okay. And it's like, you may have. If you listen to the podcast, you may have heard me say this with other athletes, but this is why. One of the many reasons why we started this podcast is because there's so many athletes suffering heavily in silence because if they're showing any weakness, it doesn't matter if the team has a sports psych. It doesn't matter if their best friend is on the team. They're not going to share what's going on because the sports psych might influence their, whatever their position on the team because the sports py works for the team. And then the best friend on the team, well, you don't want to compromise your team in any way, your best friend or anyone else on the team, so you don't show any weakness. And the things we're talking about is perceived as weakness in this kind of environment, in a high, high performance sport environment. So, you know, we're trying to. I was trying to find a way because I see it over and over and over and I lived with it with him for so many years. It was like, how do we help these athletes in a way that they feel safe? And the only way that I could think of was by telling other people's stories. So when it comes to you, when you started to experience and identify that you're, you know, you feel like a loss of a person when you lost in sport or you have an injury that sidelines you, what does that do to your mental health? What does it do to how you feel about yourself or who you are?

Yeah, I think, think right away when I sort of had this question around identity and things like that and about like my value as an athlete being equated to the value of who I am as a person, it was super isolating. I think, like, obviously both, you know, that the overseas life, like I mentioned, is already isolating. But then a lot of times it was like, even when we're winning, like we could go on a huge winning streak and things are great. It was still very much like that was just in the gym and then I would go just be by myself and the same like then thought patterns would be happening in that time period. So then I started, yeah, I was questioning that a little bit. And then I kind of came this like, resentment towards volleyball because it had this attachment. Like I couldn't detach from it at all. Right. I, I couldn't not be the volleyball player. So I really didn't want to be a volleyball player. Like, I still was very much like competitive. And once, obviously once you get into the gym, it's like natural, right? I've trained my body and so many things that I can't just flip a switch. But it was very much like on the outside. I didn't really want to talk about volleyball. I didn't really want to do it because I was trying to find this other form of identity in some way, and that was like, kind of stirring weird feelings up as well, because then I would still feel the same way after a loss or after a win, but then I felt even just maybe a little bit more like lost. I'll say. But then all of a sudden, yeah, this injury kind of sidelines me completely, and all of a sudden, like, forces me to actually reflect and actually go a little bit deeper on, like, hey, where is that coming from? Because it felt really uncomfortable for a long time to identify as an athlete when I literally couldn't walk, you know, and all of a sudden, the only thing that I know myself to be, I now can't even do, like, the first step of that. So in doing that, it was. It was difficult. But I think because it had already sort of been years leading up to that, I was able to hold a little bit of a bigger picture. So it was hard in the sense of I was definitely, like, shedding a little bit. You know, I'd break down every now and then of this weird, like, crisis I was under. But it was easy to see the big picture if I was then, like, evolving a little bit and into a. Into understanding that who I am isn't just completely defined by the performance that I could put out, which was really interesting also then, because then I came back to the national team and went back professionally, and then to just sort of see that unravel a little bit was. Was curious. Like, I all of a sudden was evaluating situations differently. You know, like, I was dealing with loss differently, I was dealing with wins differently. Like, you know, I even. I feel like the biggest kind of cataclysm that I can think of was this last tournament we had. We're going into it. I met with our sports psych, which we'll actually talk more about later, I'm sure. But basically, I was like, a lot of the stuff we do is kind of resting on our past success, or, like, I've been in this situation so many times, so just remember how you can do this. Like, trust yourself a little bit. But my main concern was I've never done this. I've never gone and been injured and then been out for 10 months. And then I came back, and then I got injured again. And then I came back and I got injured again. Now I'm, like, trying to do it again, but I can't. Like, I was standing float serving. Like, I can't. I can't do certain things. So I've never been in this situation, like, where do I rest kind of this comfort in? Or what. What do I trust? And we kind of came full circle to just this concept that I had, like, initially brought up of gratitude, of where, like, I am actually just grateful that I get to play again. You know, I went through this maybe identity crisis, then I resented the game a little bit, then I got this injury, and now I'm able to actually perform a little bit. So that was, like, what I can trust. I could go there and play awful, but, like, I can still play, right? Like, of course the coaching staff will make changes and things will happen, but I still, I could, I could trust in the fact that I could be grateful that I can. I can play again.

I just, I want to give our listeners a chance to kind of understand some of what you're referring to. So, just so that people have a sense you're a setter. And in setting your injury was what's called a spondylolisthesis. And it has to do with facet joint fractures bilaterally, so on either side of the vertebrae. And if someone can imagine if they're not in the sport of volleyball and if they've seen volleyball and you have to set or especially a back set, there's positions and jumping while you're setting, there's positions and especially landing, I'm speculating here, but for your specific pain points, but those are just things that are critical for your movement patterns and your position and your sport. And now with the kind of injury that you've incurred, you. You can't do the things that you could do before. So there's that whole mental hurdle that you're describing on, you know, how do you deal with it? And breaking it down to the gratitude is magnificent in the sense that it connects us to a much larger, larger picture than just the tiny thing of me and what I think I'm supposed to do. Can you describe. You also mentioned some of the shedding or the breakdowns that you had. And I know there's some athletes and coaches who listen to this podcast. What was one of those events like for you? And I think this is important because, you know, for people to recognize what's going on for themselves or someone they're close with, you know, what. What is the event? What is. What is going on here? And it's. It may not be the thing it appears to be. So what was. What was going on for you when you'd have something like that happen?

Yeah, it was. I mean, the first kind of segment of the injury was about like, 10 months long that I was out. So there was kind of a lot of. A lot of incidents where things would kind of happen. Um, I think at the beginning it was very much like, okay, I haven't really been injured before. Like, this is all a part of it. I'm trying to, you know, relate to other guys that have been injured and trying to be like, okay, it's all part of the process. Like, yes, it's difficult because I can't do things and sort of things like that. But then as it progressed a little bit, it evolved into a little bit more of, like, frustration and then, like, that kind of identity crisis. But one kind of example was, I remember this was probably like, six, seven months after we had come back from World Championships, which is where I kind of injured it. Um, and I went to Canmore, which is pretty close to Calgary, where I live now. Um, and we were just kind of. We Literally all we did was we drove downtown and we just wanted to, like, walk through the town for, like, a couple minutes. And it was maybe like two minutes in. Like, my back started acting up. And basically I now had an idea of what was pain, what was just tiredness, which. What was doing what. And I remember being in, like, quite a bit of pain, like, right away. And it was sort of like a family event, and we all had to drive back to the Airbnb and, like, stop it. And I remember getting home and I just had to lie on the floor. That's kind of like, lie on the floor, put your legs up kind of thing. And I remember just kind of breaking down, being like, wow, like, just doing the simplest act, you know, just walking around town with. With my family and stuff like, that I was now unable to do. And that was when it started to click in. Like, maybe the severity, but also, like, the consequences. I could have big picture. Um, for me. So was. It was. I was on the ground, like, crying, like, kind of like hyperventilating. Didn't really know as I'm having this, you know, disappointment in my physical body, but also this identity crisis at the same time, but also trying to project onto, well, what is the quality of my life gonna be, right? Like, is this something that's affecting me long term? And I literally just feel like it was just the weight of that in that moment, you know, I wasn't. It wasn't one specific thing that, like, oh, no, I'm frustrated that I can't walk around. It was kind of just all of that hitting me at once. And that would periodically kind of happen in different moments, because a lot of the time. Sorry, go ahead.

I was just going to ask what were some of the thoughts that if you went back into your head, like, if you were to get really raw, the stuff that. It's easy to share one thing, but that's the polite, politically correct thing to share. What was the thing that was in your head? Like, oh, this is what I'm reduced to. I suck right now. Can I even walk? Like, what were some of the things that you might have thought at the time?

Yeah, I definitely felt, like, kind of worthless, right? Because I, first of all, I kind of, like, ruined this trip for our family. Right? We're going to experience the mountains, and obviously we can't do any of that now. But also then, yeah, like. Like just kind of what Paul was saying too. Like, I. A lot of my value was what I could. I was kind of a commodity, right? It's what you can do, what service you can provide. All of a sudden I'm like, wow. The simplest service of just being somebody's, like, companion for a walk, I now couldn't do. So I think a lot of that hit me in that moment, but also hit me in, will I ever be able to do that again? You know, like, is this. Is this now what I am? Which is kind of a. In a weird way, kind of a cool experience, because then you get to find a little bit of the, like, okay, what if that is my situation? What if I can never walk again? Right? What can you take from that? Like, what. How can I still enjoy my existence or my everyday life or whatever if this is literally what I am reduced to in that moment? That was definitely not what I was thinking. I was just more embarrassed and, like, ashamed. And then also in that moment, like, disconnecting from my body, like, totally resenting that my body was doing this to me trail 100%. And especially when we had been a team for so long, you know, like, I hadn't been injured. We were. Things were going well. Like, you know, my body was such a part of my life for then this to kind of happened. It definitely, yeah, threw me for a loop. Did it?

Looking for a positive in that. Did it give you. In that moment when you're thinking, what does my life look like after this? What would I be missing out on? Did those questions give you any clarity on other things outside of volleyball that mattered to you? I mean, you mentioned walking with the family and things like that, but was there a thought of, my God, I'm never gonna ski Again. Or did it give you any awareness to things outside of volleyball that you actually maybe treasure more than you thought you did until you realized they might be gone?

Right, right. I think the big thing was just like wandering. Like, even when I was younger, I would always just like kind of walk around and do whatever. You know, we go to a new city, we just explore the city. You know, you go to. We live by the mountains now. You go to the mountains, you just explore the mountains. And I think, like, it felt very like my freedom was being taken away from me, you know, like all of a sudden now I wouldn't be able to just on a whim, yeah, let's go to the mountains. Let's go for a two hour hike, whatever. I definitely felt that. But in doing that, it was cool to look because that seems like a pretty extrinsic thing. So it's cool to then look at. Okay, what. What do I actually value then? Like, so if I do value that freedom, clearly freedom is a value that I, that I hold pretty close to me. And then like, what are other things that I'm kind of missing out on? And it could, I could be missing out on them because of the injury, but also because of the maybe perception or like the strength that my ego had and what I was doing.

Mm. Mm. That's huge. That's. That's really big. I didn't. I haven't talked on the podcast about my back injury, and that'll be another time and place. But I can relate it to. Because of my inability to walk for certain amounts of time, I started to ask the question similar to yours, but I just started to ask the question, can I be happy no matter what? Can I be happy no matter what? And I started to kind of be obsessed with that question, like, could. Could anything happen? Like the worst possible things with my family or myself or whatever? And can I learn and make my mind strong enough to be happy no matter what and still find fulfillment and happiness and progress in life? And started to drive me in a completely different way. But it also, you know, as, you know, with back injuries, it's not a short term healing process and it's a. It allowed me this mental strength to be able to endure the length of time that it takes to go through certain recovery processes when it comes to back injuries and nerve damage and that kind of thing. I have a. Just. This might be an out there question for you, but do you. Do you think that what.

Good out there is good? That's why we're here? Yeah. Perfect.

Do you think that I've seen a lot of this in my time, just with so many different people and injuries? But do you think that there is any sort. That this physical injury was any sort of physical manifestation of other problems that were going on for you, emotionally or mentally that just weren't aligned? Do you think this became a physical thing because your body was like, you know, you're not gonna pay attention to this, this, and this? Well, I'll show you. You're gonna have to. Is there something like that there? Do you think yours is just a mechanical breakdown?

I mean, I think when you start, like, asking big questions about, like, what do you value? All these sorts of things, it. I can definitely draw a lot of conclusions from how I think my. Whatever's in there is trying to speak to me kind of through my body. Because it's true. Like, obviously, the lifestyle of being professional athlete is cool, but it's. It's demanding on your psyche, like we've talked about in so many ways. And I think that whether it be, like, a manifestation of my body trying to tell me something or whether it be, like, just a realization that, yes, this isn't feasible to always hold this perspective or to give your ego this much strength or to, you know, keep pushing when pushing isn't the best option. Which I think is, like, the biggest lesson that I've learned is that, like, sometimes just pushing harder doesn't get you further along. Because. Yeah, exactly. Because I also. It's funny, and my girlfriend and I talk about this a lot, but there was a period pre injury where, like, we were kind of talking about. I was going through different sorts of turmoil, like, a little bit of resentment, a little bit of, you know, questioning why I'm doing that. What do I value is. Is winning a game is entertaining people? Is that really giving me the value that I think a human deserves, you know, kind of thing. So I'm sure that in some ways, and the fact that it was a chronic injury, you know, it's not like I went out and I just busted something by landing a certain way. It's just the impact of my career, then took out my back. So I do. I mean, I see it both ways. Like, obviously, literally just the sheer volume of, you know, jumps and everything that we go through. Of course your body can't handle a certain amount of that. But also, like, I do believe that there's something there. Especially even now, I can notice if I get stressed, like, emotionally stressed or something like that, I will feel my back more than If I'm not, which, I mean, right there kind of sends me a signal of, okay, there is something beyond, like, just the fact of doing something is causing it to inflame or causing it to react a certain way. So I wouldn't. I don't know if I can directly pinpoint what the cause was, but I do think just trying to understand myself, my psyche, the play that my ego had has probably played a role. And whether it be the act of getting injured or maybe the pain that I've had to deal with throughout the injury or the recovery process or where I'm at now, for sure, it's. It's possible.

Mm. Have you and your girlfriend been together throughout this whole journey?

Yeah. So, yeah, we've been together for a while. So she. It was actually funny. So I was supposed to go play in Turkey again right before I got injured. I was supposed to go to Hawk bank, and she had left her jobs because she was gonna come with me. And then I got injured at world championships and came back and all of us were unemployed and I couldn't walk. And I was sort of like, please don't take a job, because, like, what do I do then? You know? Which turned out. I mean, for both of us, turned out to be a pretty cool growing experience because. Well, first of all, we went from I was living in Poland and she was living in Calgary in a relationship to now I'm literally like on the floor in her house and she has to kind of take care of me. But then it was also. It was also super cool because she then, yeah. Joined in and was like, okay, I won't try and find work. Like, we're okay for now, and we got to just kind of grow. Like, obviously you guys mentioned Tony Robbins. We also went to one of his conferences, which was unreal, and then got to kind of explore that and explore it together, which was. Which was super cool. So, yeah, she's seen. She's seen the dark days.

Mm. How would you say you're different with the team after this experience?

Like.

In the tough moments, obviously the qualifier for those who don't know, you guys are down 2 nothing to Cuba in a must win game to qualify for Tokyo. You know, pretty much as much pressure as you put yourself under.

Yeah.

At home, do you. Are you different in those moments? Do you feel that you're different? Are you the same? Obviously you focused on gratitude. In those moments, are you able to focus on gratitude? Are you a different leader with the team? What differences or similarities do you see in yourself? Pre and post.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's super easy to also compare for me because 2016 was kind of the height of this. Just push, like my value is attached to my success, all that sort of things, all that sort of stuff. So when we had qualified last time in Japan, it was very much like, now I'm affirmed. Like, yes, now I'm enough. Right? Like, now I've accomplished this. So, yes, I now get to deserve, like, whatever's coming to me, you know, and there were some. There were some tough times in that qualification and stuff like that too. But I would say that in when things would get difficult or moments would be very high pressure, there would be a sense of, like, anxiety or tension in me. You know, it was very much like, if. If we don't get this, then this is the consequence when this time it was almost like hilarious. Like, we were down two zero and I. I really couldn't feel that pressure. It was. It was really easy to hold on to just being grateful to play and understanding that, like, okay, they're playing good, we're playing good. Okay, like, maybe today isn't our day or maybe whatever kind of happens when before it would have been, if you don't win, then you are not good enough. So you better win if you want to be enough, you know?

So obviously that impacted the younger players on the team.

Well, I think it's been cool because I think early on in the team I was maybe known as a little bit more of a, you know, like, hard work, aggressive. That was sort of my mentality, that was my style of play, things like that. But then now, yeah, everybody knows me well. Everybody kind of makes fun of me because I'm a little bit out there, but in a good way. They all, like, appreciate it. But I think in them all, seeing me go through this injury, in my perspective shifting, there's definitely, like a level of composure that, That I can bring that I don't think I could have brought if I hadn't gone through these experiences or I hadn't had this kind of revelation. And I think in doing that, that has to be easier to play, play with. You know, obviously we're down to zero. It would be very easy for us to panic.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

Have you grown to the place where you feel like it's all happening for you instead of to you?

100%, actually. Another. Another kind of funny thing is when we, me and my girlfriend, I'm on the floor, she's having to do stuff. It's like, you Know, really difficult for us. We get through that, like, first few months, then, you know, the Canmore thing happens and a bunch of other stuff, you know, in between. But then by the end of that year, like, I remember constantly telling her, like, it's so weird. Like, I wasn't able to play volleyball. I wasn't able to do all this stuff, but this has been, like, the best year of my life. Like, this has been super cool. It's been super revealing in a lot of ways. I now, when I do go get to play volleyball or do anything, I get to appreciate in a different way. And I was like, I don't. I really don't think that I would have had that without this, you know, injury and if the injury wasn't as severe as it was. So now I'm basically at the point of, like, okay, I was solely an athlete. I was super performance driven. All of that identity was taken away from me, which seems like the scariest thing in the world for me at the time. And it turned out to kind of be a positive, or, like, so many good things came from it. And now we get to go to the Olympics again. I think there's, like, for sure there are things kind of manifesting, whether it be in some cosmic way or whether it just be in the fact that I can now accept, you know, what's happening to me or kind of surrender to what the reality is. I definitely think that I would approach adversity different now than I would than I would in 2016 anyway.

Do you think that people or athletes or people in general, do you think they have to hit that kind of low in order to gain that kind of perspective? Or is that just something that someone can develop without getting to kind of a rock bottom to have their whole world shaken in some way or another?

Well, I do think also it is kind of relative. Sorry, what's that?

Guy's listening to this podcast and getting there through this medium.

Yeah, exactly. Let's go dark here. So that. There you go. You have experience. I honestly don't know, but I do think that it is all relative and it is all perspective. So, I mean, like, if somebody. Something that might not be that bad objectively happens to you and it still hits you hard, then it's the same effect. Right? And I think that can happen. All of us are dealing with different trials and triumphs and difficult things like that. So I think if you're. It could be a very minor thing, but if it hits a certain chord, you have to adapt in a certain way. It can do the exact same thing. Because even in my context, okay, I'm a professional athlete who couldn't play anymore, that's really not that bad of a life situation, you know. So I think in doing that, and I've reflected on that as well, which makes it even easier to be grateful in certain moments. So I definitely think that it's kind of on all ends of the spectrum, you can appreciate what you have, whether it's, you know, you're the richest person in the world or you're not. And I think it's really easy to also find examples of people out there who have struggled. Right. And have then come out the other side and are totally different people for it and affect so many different people in different ways that I do think you may need a sort of valley in there. But I think that's so relative that it could be any everyday situation.

Yeah, I think a big difference maker for each individual person would be what their values are tied to or what they value. Because just like you're saying it's all relative, something that could happen to one person, which seems insignificant to us, could rock their world if their values were tied in a certain way to that event. So your shift in values and that awareness really sounded like the catalyst that helped you just realize what's important, what matters to you truly, and lessens the impact of the back injury from the volleyball perspective. But, yeah, having value awareness, I think, is key to that whole idea of how you're going to be dealing with any of these events.

I think understanding your values is such an underrated skill or practice or anything like that. Like, I think for me, if you'd have asked me not that long ago, let's say, Even, for instance, 2016, let's say after, after the Olympics, if you asked me what my values are, I probably couldn't tell you. I really didn't know. Like, I. I knew what I aspired day to day to be, and that was like, successful in sport, win games, all that sort of stuff. But I don't know if that was a real core value structure that I had. And that's when I also started to look at, okay, where is that coming from? And like we talked about earlier, for me, it was like a kid who just wanted to make friends or wanted to be accepted. Right? And that goes back. And I was just living that out for 20 years or whatever it was. And so I think. I think understanding what you value and why you value it and what the people around you value is super crucial in trying to at least identify what is actually adversity and how you can actually overcome that. And. And why.

You. In the. In the support you have now with where you are in Calgary or when you are with national team, between the sports psych, the coaches, how has that played a role in supporting you or keeping you grounded or having you be the best you can be? What's been really helpful for you or what are some of the tools you use now? What's. What does it take and what's the support system you use?

Yeah, so a lot of. And we can go back to the kind of this concept of, like, pushing. Like, as long as you keep pushing, then you'll get to where you want to be. I think early on, and this was something that my sports psych was constantly kind of in my head about, and even I was already aware of it, was that the more I push, the more inflammation happens, the worse the injury gets, the longer I'm out for. So it was almost like this reverse effect of, okay, the more you push, the less likely you are to do what you want to do. So it was really cool having him to have this dialogue. But then all of a sudden, when you get into an actual game where that environment happens, it is really difficult to remain big picture or to have that actual value structure. You know, if I was playing, like, for instance, when we went to China for our. The Olympic qualifier that we lost, I had gone in saying, I can't jump. Like, I'd gone failed a bunch of different times, and the injury was acting up, and I was like, okay, jumping is really causing a lot of problems, like, I can't jump. But then there was obviously moments where it's like, okay, I'll just do it. You know, like your ego all of a sudden is like, no, we're in the moment. The adrenaline, oh, I don't feel my back right now because I've got adrenaline or meds or whatever. So I'm thinking, okay, now I can do this. So I remember I had this conversation on one of the flights over with Kyle, who's our sports psych, and he's like, so what happens? Like, let's say we're playing Argentina. Was the team that we kind of had to be. He's like, let's say we're playing Argentina. Let's say it's, you know, we're. It's the fourth set, you're winning or losing or whatever, and it's like 21, 21. And all of a sudden, like, you're in, but you're only playing back row, and you go to go front row. Like, what do you do? Like, do you pull yourself out or do you not? And I was like, to be honest, I think I wouldn't, like. And not because I don't want to, but I don't think I physically could. So I was basically saying to him, like, you be kind of my. The person looking out for my big picture ideas, because I know that I'll be a competitor and I'll want to just, like, give kind of everything I have. So having him was huge. And actually, we kind of made a joke that it would be my girlfriend. I was like, you have to. You have to call her, have her on the phone. She'll be on the sidelines. She'll yell at me, and I'll get off the court. You know, what are you doing? Yeah, exactly. She. Her, like, phrase is like, shut it down. Because she was. When I. When I first got injured, she kept telling me to, like, shut it down. And I kept like, no, no, it's fine. And we flew out an osteo, and he was, like, cracking me in different ways. And then we went into World Championships. I was trying to play, and it got way worse from that. So she's now, like, well, not. Obviously not. Not being, you know, too insincere about it, but she was definitely like, I told you so in certain ways. But it was super cool to have him at least, like, share that, understanding that it might be difficult in the game. But then the other thing was, you know, from the actual coaching staff, my progress into this qualifier, even literally in the last, like, year and a half, has been, like, pretty unconventional. Like, obviously, I had to take almost a year off doing anything. Came back with the national team. We were in Ottawa for vnl. Tried to play one of those games. I could play, like, two sets. And then it started, like, flaring up really bad. So I was off as out for the rest of those games. Then, obviously, I didn't do World Cup. I wasn't able to do the Norseca. And then I went to my pro club, went there. Didn't have much support, as you know. The reality kind of is sometimes of the pro life, because over there, it's even more so. You are a commodity. You know, we're paying you for this service, provide this service. And so there was some. Exactly. There was some tension there. And I maybe did a little bit more than I should have or gone into that pushing mentality a little bit more than maybe I should have, which then ultimately, like, I ended up flared up quite badly again, so I had to come back to Canada. Then I was here, and I really wasn't able to do much. I was hoping that the inflammation, everything would go away right away and I could get back to training, but it didn't really happen kind of up until I played. So it was really without the coaching staff having the perspective that they have or having the trust in me that they had, there's, like, no way that any of that was possible, because who would. Who would trust the guy that really hasn't played in a year and a half to play in the game to go to the Olympics, you know, who's got a back brace on and who's, like, standing, float, serving, and, you know, like, it's. That was definitely a risk on their.

Part, but that's an example of them having confidence in who you are as an individual more than who you are as an athlete, 100%.

And I think I see that a lot, or I saw that a lot with the injury was okay. Who actually trusts that I know my body and that I know what's going on versus who just wants me to be able to perform this service. So in doing that, and, I mean, I'll just flat out say Glenn was, like, incredible throughout the whole thing. He's like, okay, how much do you want to do? Okay, you should stop. You've probably done more than here, you know, and. And it was super cool to sort of watch or to have that help, because I'm also just trying to figure it out on my own as well. Right. But it was cool that he was able to trust me. And I mean, like, the whole coaching staff and the players, you know, like, obviously, I'm going out, and we haven't played that much together over the last year and a half yet. For all them to kind of be on my team and support me was, you know, it was pretty cool. It very much felt like I was being valued for who I am, not for this athlete Persona.

And you also probably have seen your own evolution enough to know that, you know that Glenn profiles each player well enough to know that he wouldn't have had the same response to you as a younger version of yourself versus now, because he's always got his finger on the pulse of who that individual athlete is, who they are as a person. That's how he can say something and have that confidence like that in you at that time versus the younger version of you. He wouldn't have said the same thing. There's no way he wouldn't have felt the same way, like, of, oh, you know, okay, where are you at? What's going on? Because he would have known that you didn't know yourself well enough, and he wouldn't have had that ability to rely on you knowing yourself well enough. And now you do, and now he can. And that's his ability as a coach in being able to profile the players as humans first before he profiles them as a positional or tactical person.

Yeah, I think. I think that's a really good point, especially when I compare it to, for instance, my experience overseas when I just came back from Poland. It was very much, you know, oh, no, you should be doing this. Like, oh, no, do more of this. Oh, no, we need you to play here. Oh, no, we need you. And I had some resistance that. Because it's like, first of all, like, the load was just exponentially growing. Like, I was going to fall apart if we keep doing it like this. But also, it was the. It wasn't the belief in, like, oh, no, I'm here to play games. I'm here to get you wins, you know, don't wor. I understand how to do that. I want that. That was the biggest thing. I kept having conversations with the club. It's like, I want to play. I want to win. Like, that is never yet. Exactly. Just trust me or understand that me being unable to serve in this one practice or me, you know, not being able to do these certain things aren't because I don't want to do them, you know, which is a really difficult thing. And I think a lot of athletes maybe overdo it because they feel this external pressure of, like, oh, well, if you're not doing this, then you're not ready or you're not gonna be able to perform in a game. Obviously, I'm now played enough volleyball that, like, repetitions aren't the issue. That might be different if you're a younger player, but it was very much like, no, no, like, I will understand, but I'm trying to situate myself and my physical situation so that I can play and perform. You know, I'm not doing it because I'm lazy or because I don't want to. Right. Which is a weird hurdle for, like, the athletic world to get over because it is always like, oh, just do more. Just lift more weights, hit more serves, and you'll get up. You'll become a better server.

But it's also hard in that team dynamic because even if the coach or whoever's making this decision trusts you to give you that green light then can create tension with other players who don't.

Want to serve, who don't want to.

Do the extra reps, and are dying for the excuse not to because of an injury. And they need to. And so it. From the. Obviously, from the management side, they didn't do a good enough job to trust you. But there's also that juggling act of the team dynamic and setting precedent, and everybody's different. And to get back to Glenn, that's what he was great about, is treating everyone like an individual and being really clear on a role and expectation and clearly communicating why certain things were happening to diffuse any of that tension that could be generated of, oh, TJ's getting special treatment and sitting out this searing practice because he's, you know, he's hurt. Well, I'm hurting, too, and why am I training? And so it's.

I think. I think that that's so true, especially if I look at, you know, if you are going to a club, like, realistically, they can't know you that well. Like, they kind of have to have this wall up because they're, you know, trying to run a team as well. So I totally. I, like, obviously, no animosity in that context. It's just funny how you look at the difference from the national team, where there is this profile of me or where I've, you know, been for the last eight years or whatever it is, to now in a pro team where it's like, oh, they don't know you that well, but it was also cool to then have to go through the experience of, okay, well, it's valid that they maybe don't trust me in a certain way, but I also have to trust my body, and it's, like, falling apart. So if I do want to play at this qualifier or if I do want to, you know, think about this extended quality life or whatever I'm looking for, then I have to leave. You know, like, that's basically what. What things kind of came down to. So. But just to go back on your point, I do think the. If I look back to me early in my career and, like, how much Glenn had trusted me, and I look at it now, it is pretty funny because back then, I almost, like, resented it. He's like, oh, he doesn't trust me enough. He, like, you know, just leave me out there. Like, I can do it. I can do it. But I also. Exactly like you said, like, I didn't know who I was. I didn't know why I was doing what I was doing. I didn't know. And I think in doing that kind of. On your point, Paul, it's like, okay, if that one guy doesn't want to serve because he's tired or whatever, or maybe he is just being lazy. Like reality is sometimes there are moments and players are being lazy. Is he. Can he self identify that? You know, is he aware that he's just being lazy? Is the coach aware that he's being lazy? And I think it comes back to kind of the baseline of everything we've talked about is like understanding yourself, what you value and then kind of not responding from your ego.

And just not to talk about Glenn too much here, but there's not. Having worked with other national teams and other national level coaches within volleyball or within different sports, there's not a lot of national level coaches who do it to that level, meaning profile the individual, have that as a priority to structure the team and coach because of how they've profiled. So it just doesn't. It's not prevalent in sport. It's more along the lines of the structures of pro systems. And, you know, not always, of course, there's, you know, there's highlights and amazing, incredible coaches out there. But just it's tough because it's like, it's like we've seen and like we're talking about, the player becomes the commodity in so many, so many levels. But where you're at right now, like, what, you've just qualified for the next Olympics, how this must be feeling incredible in a different way. And now from a space of being able to embrace not only this qualification, but and yourself as who you are, instead of depending on, I'm going to the Olympics, so I must be awesome because I'm going to the Olympics now. It's like, okay, no, I'm awesome as an automatic, whether I have a back injury, whether I'm going to the Olympics, whether I'm in a relationship, like, whatever the things that define somebody's awesome. You're already awesome the way you are. So what's it like now with this qualifier or with this qualification versus the last one, which you were in a com, You're a different person.

Yeah, it just allows me so much more freedom. Like, I think now I get to actually, okay, let's align with things that I actually value and then go do those things. You know, I don't have to be sort of so dependent on this dopamine hit or this level of success. I get to actually go do what I want, which is cool. So then right after the qualifier, like, I went to Trinity Western for a week. They've got, like, two super good setters. They've got the B team setter and the junior team setter, basically. So I went and I got to just work with them for a week, and Ben, like, basically gave me reins to, like, teach them what I know. We got to have some good conversations. I got to kind of try and touch on these topics with them, because obviously, they're basically just me at a different part of the journey, you know, so that was super cool. Now I'm back here. I leave for Nunavik up north on Friday, where I get to see volleyball doing a totally different thing for people up there than it's done for me. So it just gives me this kind of, like, depth to the perspective of what volleyball can do for me or what my life can do for me. And it's. Yeah, it's oddly freeing. Like, there's not this. I don't have to go right after the qualifier, go back to a pro league and win the league in order to feel like I'm contributing something or like I'm valuable. So that. Yeah, that's opened up a lot of. And there's. There's definitely been, you know, growing pains to get there. You know, like, we've talked about through all these kind of this shedding or these breakthroughs or these breakdowns, but it's one of those things where it feels really good to have accomplished that. But it almost. I would say the biggest or the heaviest thing that I felt off of that was to trust that what I value and how I want my lifestyle to look will allow me opportunities like that. You know, I think I was okay, that if we would have lost that game, it would have hurt. Obviously, I'm still a competitor, but I don't think it would have affected how I think of myself as a person. But winning also gave me the confidence to know that I can trust myself. I can trust myself that if my body's breaking down and I have to come back from Poland, that I still will be able to play. I can trust myself that I know my body. I can trust that, you know, I'm not defined by whether we go to the Olympics again or not. And I think in doing that, all of those things, it just gives me reassurance in this. In this moment. So it gives me. In Tony's kind of talk, it gives me, like, that security and who I am as opposed to. If I would have lost in 2016, it would have been. I'm not good enough. Like, will I ever be good enough? You know, all those sorts of things. And I actually remember a huge, like, story that went down to kind of maybe exemplify that was our first qualifier in Edmonton for 2016, when we lost to Cuba that year. Leading up to it, I had signed a contract, a champ, just for Champions League. And like, two days before I went, they called me and said, hey, like, the president's in jail. We don't have any money. Like, but still come. And I was like, oh, no, that's okay. Like, I. It's all good. All, like. And so I was looking for something else that year. I ended up just going to RK with Glenn and just training, you know, the month before the qualifier. Go to the qualifier, we lose that qualifier. But I was basically, like, set up to go sign a contract in Germany with a really good team. Like, okay, perfect. No problem. We lose that qualifier. It was like, two days later, I. I flew home to London, got a call from my agent saying, like, oh, actually, they went with somebody else. And I remember in that moment just having, like, a visceral panic attack of like, whoa, you literally aren't good enough. Like, you aren't enough. And I felt that on the level of athlete, but very much on who I am, I think in that, my response, so this is probably my first response to that, was to then work harder or to get better, to demand that success even more. And then we eventually got it in 2016. But then you come back, and I'm sure a lot of Olympians have kind of talked about this, but after you come back and it's like, supposed to be. Your life is supposed to have changed, you know, you're now this better person, right? But then you come back and you realize, wait, that was literally just a tournament. Like, we've done a thousand tournaments. Every athlete has. Who you are didn't change because of that. And I think that was the kind of kick started the realization that me just wanting that success more really wasn't gonna give me the fulfillment that I was maybe looking for. So there's kind of like that initial breakdown of not getting the contract, plus not going to the Olympics and, like, really not understanding because I thought I deserved it or whatever it would be, and I was kind of responding to it or facing it in a very egotistical way versus now, where I'm unable to get a contract because I'm physically incapable of it. But we are going. It just gives me. It's just so much different context. Like, it Allows me to appreciate, like, what. What has kind of happened over the. Over the years.

It's amazing turn of events to hear it. Just what. You sum it up there of. Completely different scenario.

And. And I. And I truly. And I. And I'm not saying this to sound a certain way, but I really do feel like lucky that all those events transpired. So the same thing like that Cuba game, us losing, it made us so much better as a team, as a group. The back injury has made me have to evaluate things so differently. So all these bouts of adversity or troublesome things that have come up have added value. So, like, just gives me confidence. And I think that's, like, the biggest takeaway is then I was able to go and play, you know, a couple weekends ago and perform at a certain level that we were good enough to win.

It's just.

It's just allowing me. Yeah. That security and that confidence that, you know, whatever the outcome, it's really not about that.

I think for so many players, especially players like Paul in that. Who have worked so hard and done all the things and all the right things, felt and known that they were so deserving of the thing, but then it just doesn't happen because there's so many other circumstances that are involved, that it's not just one person's work ethic. It's not just one person's deserving or one person's steps or one person's whatever. So it becomes harder to handle if that's the only bucket that you live your life in, that bucket of worth that revolves around accomplishment in that one realm. So it can be a really challenging thing. Can you just. Before we finish up with our final questions, can you tell us a little more about the Nunavik program? You're doing some coaching or some mentoring. What does that look like?

Yeah. So how it all went down was kind of, like, by chance and kind of funny. But I was on a flight over here, and the guy that was sitting beside me was like, hey, like, you look familiar. Like, what's. And I was like, oh, do you know volleyball? He's like, oh, yeah. He. Well, he kind of helps, actually. Don't know what his actual title is, but he does a bunch of stuff, like, for developmental volleyball throughout Canada. And he was like, hey, you got to get in contact with this guy who's running this program up north. It's northern Quebec, so it's like, parallel to Nineveh. He's like, you got to get in contact with this guy. Like, he sometimes has Coaches go up there and all that sort of stuff. I was like, okay, cool. Ended up reaching out. He was like, pumped. He's like, oh, yeah, come on up. We'll do some, we'll do some camps, like coach the kids, all that sort of stuff. And at first I was like middle of the back injury, where I was like, whoa, that's a far way to go with a lot of unknowns. That seems pretty scary.

No daylight?

No, no daylight. It's minus 50, like you can only you got to take 15 flights to get there kind of thing. And I remember like, fear was a huge part of what was going on with me. But my girlfriend was just like, let's do it, let's do it like every day. Like, let's do it. So then I eventually like reached out and I was like, oh, can my girlfriend come too? Like she played CIS volleyball, all that sort of stuff. He's like, for sure, let's do it. Let's set it up. So we went up there for three weeks and what we did. So there's 15 communities up there, 15 Inuit communities. We're in 11 of them. And so what that time we went up and we went to three of the communities, so a week in each. And basically we just ran like camps. Like in the morning we'd have 8 to 12 year olds. We're basically teaching them what volleyball is like, goofing around, all that sort of stuff. Then we'd have like the boys team. I mean, on average the communities are about a thousand people. So the boys team would basically be like a high school boys team. There'd be like, you know, that many people and we'd have like the girls team. Then we'd have like open volleyball for the adults to come and all that sort of stuff. And that would sort of be the week of events. And that's pretty typical in the like camp setting that we run. But in this program he also has like, he puts a regional team together and they come down south and they play in like the Quebec Summer Games and, and all that sort of stuff. So anyway, when we were up there that time, it was pretty clear my Kaisa's pretty type A and organized and there is so much like infrastructure to what it's like to go up there that basically he needed somebody to take on that load. So she became the program coordinator that and basically organizes the whole thing. And then kind of in my injury, weird kind of stuff. I've now become like the technical director of that up there. So I'm in charge of everything volleyball. So now it's. It's less like we go up to communities and kind of train for a week. It's, you know, we'll go up and we'll host a tournament, and we'll have different clinics for different things. I'm now always available for them to kind of reach out, and we'll kind of try and underline the development structure for how it's going to look up there. But the coolest thing about all that is to see how volleyball affects people in such a different way. Kind of, as I touched on earlier, different way than it, like, affected us. You know, like, they life is really hard up there. There's a lot of issues. Also. It's minus 50 outside and there's no sunlight, so those are also very difficult to deal with. So just to give the kids a place to just go play, to give them skill sets to so they can build confidence, you know, give them somebody to talk to. Like, there's other adults now in the community that they can just come and chat with. It's been super, super cool and rewarding to just see how volleyball can change somebody's life in a different way than it changed mine. You know, I've always kind of been in the culture of high performance and how striving to be better can, you know, give you this other quality of life. Now I get to see it where literally just the ability to go in a gym for two hours can change somebody's experience. So the whole thing has been, like, insane and such a cool thing. And also, like, I mean, I kind of equate that as well as now I can actually appreciate that in a different way. You know, even early on, when it was early on the injury and there was this fear of going up there, it was less about, like, I think now I get to. And Tony kind of talks about this too, but I now get to actually act out service. Like, I get to serve this community in such a cool way that. Yeah, that I'm just really easy to be grateful for.

Mm, that's super cool. That's awesome. And you're. You're going to school right now?

Yep. Yeah. I'm also just at Athabasca, trying to transfer. Trying to transfer from McMaster to Calgary. I'm taking psych eventually with hopes to dissect myself and understand what's actually been going on.

You're ahead of the game because, seriously, most themselves or understand close to as much as you've been able to.

I had another cool experience. I guess I'm Just sharing stories now, but when I was in Poland, and it had gotten to the point where this. This past season, like, recently, it had gotten to the point where, you know, we would. We would go to the grocery store and I'd walk around for, like, 10 minutes, and then I'd have to, like, lay on the floor of the grocery store. And it was like, getting to that point again where it's, like, very clear that, you know, okay, you got to make some changes saying no. Exactly. So then I had this conversation with Kaiser, and it was basically like, this is a revelation and something that I think can have with them, people can have with themselves. But I was kind of blinded by back. I was back in the culture of sport and this pushing mentality and just striving for success. But she basically said to me, she's like, you know, you don't have to do this. Like, you don't have to. And I remember just being like, what? Like what? She's like, oh, you don't have to keep, like, pushing and not being able to walk and then doing this and being unable to do that. She's like, you can do so many other things. Like, there's no. We're not reliant on you doing this one thing. And I just remember this weird. Like, it's so simple in mindset, but it was so, like, profound in where I was. And that was the moment that it was like, okay, then what would I do? And it basically came up to, like, okay, I've been way too curious about what's going on in my own head and other people's heads that I should probably pursue that a little bit. And actually, so when I was injured, too, like, I did kind of explore some, like, random areas, you know, like, I took some free online law classes. I took some, like, of these other things to try and be like, okay, what do I value? What would I want? What. What is out there that would kind of reflect what my. Exactly. And I did that in the Tony Robbins conference, and I did, like, some investing conferences, and I did some different things being, okay, what do I. What's kind of hitting me in the right way? And it's always kind of come back to psych. That's always been something that it's on. It's unintentional. Like, I'm just kind of obsessed with it, like I was with sport. Obviously, I got to be careful to make sure why I'm obsessing over it, obviously, as we've all discovered from this conversation. But, yeah, so I'M just taking some courses there. There's also a pretty. Pretty good course or pretty good master's program out of U of C that I'm interested in and I'll see if I'll eventually get into that. And then.

Yeah, that's. That's fantastic. That's awesome. So just out of curiosity, because people listening to this will want to know a little more personal things about you. What are some favorite. What's some favorite music that you love to get kind of pumped to for workouts or for whatever.

Favorite music. Okay, good. On my, like, playlist for. This is. I don't know why this is randomly coming to my mind, but my, like, Pump up playlist when I was in a few years ago was like the Sheepdogs Essentials album. It just would get every time. I don't know what it was, but it would just every time. And I hadn't listened to them that much, but it was also probably something to do with their Canadian, you know, all that sort of stuff. Other music, I mean, now I would say I listen to more like low key stuff because I'm too quick. My adrenaline is too quick to start pumping and I want to keep it. Keep it low key. Yeah, so anything like kind of low. Low key like that. But yeah, other pump up music. I'm trying to think of what we were doing for the qualifier. I mean, Blair Band would always be the guy with the mega boom, so he was pretty much in control of that. And he would always just play like the most hilarious recent rap, hip hop, like, you know, song that came out. So, yeah, nothing else comes to mind. But I definitely listen to that Sheepdogs album more than I ever thought I would.

How about a favorite movie?

Space Jam.

So the secretary excited?

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Oh, my gosh.

Seriously.

I mean, I also love how quick it was, but it's just. I've watched that movie like a hundred times. What's that?

You love the psychology that was used.

Exactly. Right. They took away their power and then. Yeah, there we go. We're gonna make a remake where it's actually real life and it is the mental game. It's not the physical absorption that the aliens took, it's the psyche that they saw.

There it is.

What. What do you do? What are you up to right now for your training, for your physical or your physical stuff?

Mostly I'm doing yoga. I 100% think it is, like, the greatest thing for volleyball players because I find volleyball is very much like hunched over and really fast. You know, everything is Fast twitch. And I find when I go to a yoga class, it's like the opposite. It's very, like, opening and slow. And it was super hard, and I mean, is still super hard. So I found that to be super beneficial just in. Especially in a rehabbing for an injury where I needed to rebuild a lot of things. You know, after 10 months of doing pretty much nothing, I was pretty weak, dude. I had to kind of come up from scratch. And. And yeah, so hot yoga is like a huge. I mean, and then I'm seeing physios and doing stuff like that, but hot yoga was like, it's crazy.

And how does Glenn feel about yoga?

Well, I want to get him to. Into a hot yoga class because all I know is that every time I talk to him, he's on. He's on the latest. He always knows what's up. Like, every time I talk to him, he's talking about his latest intermittent fast that he did.

Oh, I know.

It is like. Oh, I bet. Yeah, he's. He's always pretty dialed in. So we'll get him in one time and it'll be. I'll videotape it.

Yeah.

What's that?

Fasting isn't working as well as it could.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay. We can't make fun of Glenn when he's not here.

Exactly. Exactly. Well, every day that's. I'd see him, I'd be like. He'd always talk about, like, oh, I haven't worked out enough. I haven't worked out. So every day I'd see him, I'm like, oh, have you worked out yet? No, No, I haven't yet.

Yeah, that's. How many years of that? Like, this is going on a long time.

Seriously? Seriously.

Okay, so.

We love you, Glenn. This is all over the blog.

I love a story or two here, but I digress. Okay, so what about favorite foods or desserts? What do you got there?

Foods are desert. My favorite dessert is probably Kais's banana bread, because, like, it's like a paleo banana bread thing. And I. It's really tough to not eat all of it in one night, especially after she, like, put in her labor of love for so long and I almost eat it. That's a pretty good food. Oh, there's a lot of good ones. I. I really like a classic, like.

One More Meal on Earth.

What is it? One More Meal on Earth? Yeah, it's got to be like an awesome steak, asparagus salad kind of thing.

Okay, so what if it's like, what if it's a meal. That's the only meal you could keep eating forever.

Okay, that's a tough one. Pizza might be it, though, because you can have so much variety.

And my salad, my salads, you can mix it up to all over.

Yeah, pizza and salad. That's a pretty good one.

That's solid. Yeah, I think.

So.

What would you want to share to young athletes? Young, maybe young athletes or young volleyball players? What's there for you on your heart that you'd like to impart? Or maybe it's a younger version of yourself?

What would you tell yourself when you're wiping sweat off the floor to work?

Right. I think the biggest thing would be, you know, why do you want to do this? Why does this matter so much to you? Because I think that's like we've talked about, both of us struggled with that. And I also think then you could end up appreciating what you accomplish so much more. You know, Like, I think a lot of my accomplishments were kind of, you know, put behind me because I was still so driven and addicted to this, like, ego inflating a bit, that you don't get to actually appreciate and understand what's going on around you. It's like the classic thing of like, you know, stop and smell the roses. I think if you understand your why and you're able to appreciate what's going on around you, you get to actually experience it differently.

Say it in a, say it in a way that a kid can understand.

Right. That was a lot of words.

Because if you say, if you say like, oh, why do you want to do this? Understand your why kind of thing, they're like, what, what would you, what would you say to a 15 year old?

Right.

Because I'm then going to play this back to my twin boys.

But it's almost like, what. What feels so good about winning? Or how do. Or even this. Do you think you. There's a difference between who you are as a player and who you are as a person? Or do you think, oh, yeah, even something simple like, you know, why do you think it feels that way when you lose? Or why or what? How does it feel when you lose? Maybe even just identifying like, oh, it hurts. What hurts? Oh, like, well, I'm embarrassed because my friends were watching. Oh, well, why did that affect you in a certain way? Oh, well, because, you know, if they see me lose, maybe they think I'm less cool or something like that.

Yeah. So one of the things I ask a lot of young athletes, when I see that they're so caught up in their sport is. So tell me about the other things you like to do, because then it draws their attention to some other things. And I'll start to probe and probe until I can find some things that they also like to do, because there comes a time where they're so. It's like it's hockey, everything. Hockey. Hockey, whatever it is. And if they can start to see that there are other things or people or events or experiences that they like other than that, then they're not as obsessed with the one thing sometimes. So, yeah, it's interesting. Is there anything else that you want to add? What's there that you're looking forward to right now? What's within your space?

Well, I think, first of all, I want to thank you guys, because I think a platform like this is super cool for younger athletes, for older athletes, for even just for me to experience and go through this. I. I've always had ambitions of doing a similar thing, but obviously it takes a lot of work and time and commitment and stuff like that. So I obviously want to thank you guys, and I really do appreciate it, and I'm pumped to continue this relationship and stuff like that. But also, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things going on, and I'm just excited to go up north and get prepped for Tokyo and see how that experience is. Like, it'll be such a different one from my last one, so I'm just kind of ready to accept whatever that looks like. And, yeah, and thanks to everyone who's. Who's listening, and I hope they ask themselves some questions.

That's fantastic. Well, we appreciate you coming on, and we're here to help in any way we can. And thank you for your raw honesty, because people need to hear that kind of thing, and it's transparent and it's authentic, and that's very, very special. So we really appreciate that. Thank you so much.

Yeah. Thank you.

Hey, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you're wanting to connect with Kari and I for online training, public speaking events, or more, simply send your request to info powerconditioning.com and hey, we need your help to keep growing this show, so please share it with coaches, athletes, trainers, parents, anyone who you think might be interested, get them to smash that subscribe button and follow the Empowered Athlete podcast. We can't do it without you. Thanks again for listening, Sam.