EP9 Conor Trainor - Rugby - National Team

This is the Empowered Athlete Podcast, episode nine. Hello, everyone, and welcome to a big, big episode today of the Empowered Athlete Podcast. We're going on a journey with a young man who started his career on the west coast of Canada and went all the way to the World cup of Rugby to face the All Blacks. We're talking about Connor Trainor.

I've been fortunate enough to work with Connor, and he's an amazing guy, but a phenomenal athlete. This guy has not only been on the 15s national team, but also the Sevens as well. So if you know anything about rugby, that is an incredible feat. We're so happy to have him here today, and there's so much to learn from his experiences. So let's get right into it.

Let me take you back to the summer of 2008. It was my first summer not playing for the national team. I had it off, and I got to train the entire summer with Kari on a specifically made program that was tailored to me, my injuries, my body, and my goals for that next upcoming season. And I was 34 years old. Well, the result, went back over to Turkey and won a European cup in incredible physical condition. Thank you to that program setting me up for the perfect season. Well, now you have access to the exact same thing. Hit email ksempowerconditioning.com that's KS for Kari Schneider. And get started on one of Kari's incredible online training programs. The program is tailored to you. It has video of each exercise you're doing so you know what you're doing. Your reps are laid out, the sets are laid out. You can't go wrong. Reach out now to reach your best.

Welcome to the Empowered Athlete Podcast, created to support athletes in their pursuit of excellence and inspire others toward their best lives. Hosted by Kari Schneider, coach to top performers in sport and life, and Paul Duarten, former national and professional volleyball player. Okay. Hi, Connor. We're really excited to have you on today, so welcome.

Hi, guys. Thanks a lot for having me.

Yeah, so we're here with Connor Traynor and Paul Dorden, and if you don't know who Connor is, we really want to hear from him to describe a little bit about, you know, the Connor trainer. That's the international rugby player.

Yeah. Happy to be here. Thanks. Thanks a lot for having me on. I'm definitely a rugby player, hopefully a little bit more as well in life, but happy to be on and happy to talk about my story.

So how you. You grew up in Vancouver, but, you know, you went really quickly through the ranks when it Comes to rugby and. But you didn't start off as a rugby player. You weren't one of those kids who was playing rugby at like 10 years old, were you? Or did you start. What was your start like? Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, my parents had me playing pretty much everything. They really indulged me. And if I picked up a tennis bracket the next day I was at a tennis court. If I saw swimming on tv, I was in the pool the next day. So I built a base, playing all sport and kind of utilizing all skills, which I think is really important as an athlete to progress. And I actually stayed far away from rugby, just watching it look like organized chaos. And as a small kid growing up, I was fine with contact, but I wasn't gonna get into it voluntarily.

Quick question, Connor. Where did you see it first? Because I know rugby for a lot of Canadians is something they may have heard of. Heard of that goes on in Europe. I know my high school, there was no rugby program until the last year. I was leaving, and it was a British gentleman who started it. So is rugby prevalent on the west coast here, where I grew up in Ontario, wasn't a lot of rugby going on. So where did you actually see it first?

Yeah, so in Vancouver. Vancouver and Victoria is the hub of rugby in Canada just solely because of our winters. They're a lot better than the Ontario winters as I've experienced. So the first time I saw a rugby game was in my hometown down at Stanley Park. My family would go for bike rides around there, and we stopped at the field and saw what we thought was some sort of fight with the teams organized. And my parents had no idea what it was. My sister had no idea. I don't think we asked anyone. We just watched for a while and then got out of there as quickly.

As possible because there was sure to be another unorganized fight afterwards after watching all that.

Exactly. Yeah. So we had no idea what was going on and want to find out. And yeah, to this day, my parents still don't really know the rules. So. Helping you out. Yeah, I guess you could say I was lucky. Where I was born in Vancouver and rugby was around a little bit more so than schools in Ontario or anywhere else in Canada for that matter. But yeah, I. I stayed away from rugby and. And I played soccer growing up, also did cross country and that, but I just. I was playing soccer at such a high level at such a young age, I kind of got burnt out and just fully, fully quit sport.

What age was that?

I think I would have been maybe 13 or 14.

So how much were you. Would you have been playing and traveling per week at that age?

Yeah, it would have been similar to what I'm doing now as a professional player, I guess, minus the travel, but yeah, maybe two hours a night playing soccer and then weekends would be spent traveling. I remember I came to Spain and Holland to play in tournaments. I remember we played FC Barcelona, their junior team and yeah, it was just a lot at that age.

Would you attribute that background in soccer as giving your foundation to all your athleticism and a lot of your ability now that you tap into?

Yeah, as I said, all sports kind of gave me something. Soccer was definitely huge and it's a great sport to play because it creates that base of aerobic fitness and just seeing the field, it doesn't matter what sport you're playing or what surface it's on, you need to be able to see what's happening around you and anticipate what's going to happen.

And that was that spatial awareness and that tactical sense.

Exactly. Yeah. You've worded it much better than me.

Thanks. Okay. I know this to me is a funny story, but I remember so we worked together for a while. I was coaching you before you were heading off to the national team and you were playing university. But I knew you came from a soccer background and I became aware of how limited your shoulder range of motion was. And you said one thing to me, I was like, are you kidding me? You said I can't even really do a throw in for soccer. I was like, that makes sense. So I see why you went away from tennis.

Yeah, it hasn't gotten any better, I will tell you.

Oh, we worked so hard on that.

And yeah, the couple shoulder injuries I've had since then have, have not helped.

No.

So I'm so sorry. But yeah, it's gotten worse if anything.

Oh geez, I didn't know I could.

My throw ins weren't fantastic for soccer. That wasn't my strong suit.

Yeah, yeah, that's too funny. So you were. So you got burnt out and at that age, what was that like? You just felt like you had no zest for wanting to keep competing or training? Like what did that kind of burnout feel like in a 14 year old mind?

Yeah, it was just I wasn't having fun anymore and I wasn't excited to just go out and run around, which was the only reason I was doing it. My parents weren't pushing me to be some sort of professional soccer player or anything to be Honest. My dad has now said he wished I'd gone pro in hockey, but that's a different story.

But were you playing hockey back then, too?

I played it till I was maybe 11 or 12, and then I stopped playing hockey because they wouldn't let me stay on the ice the whole time, which I didn't understand.

Were you decent at that age? Cause that's kind of that cusp age where you start to head into that 13, 14 years old, and people are being siphoned to where their talent is. So then that's where you get the opportunity. So did you have some decent hockey talent?

Yeah, I was. I was definitely a pretty good player. I had done power skating, so I was. I was pretty amazing skater. Good. Good handling skills and that. It's just sometimes because I was so small, I would. I would just get pushed off the puck or just destroyed completely. And again, that's. That's why my dad continues to bring up hockey, because I had all the based skills and I would have grown into the body I have now.

Is he gonna. Is he gonna let his dream go, do you think? Or is he.

That ship sailed.

Yeah, the ship sailed, but, yeah, he'll always regret, I guess, letting me quit hockey at age 12. Not that he'd ever stop me from doing it, but, yeah, he loves to bring that story up.

Now, there's a couple things here that I'm thinking of, and that's that for the listeners, they may not know what your size is because you're described getting pushed off a putt. So tell people what size you are. That's our dog in the background. So this is real life for everybody who's listening. Yeah. So what size are you now in terms of if you were to get pushed off a puck or we're thinking in rugby terms too.

It would take someone pretty big now to push me off a puck. I'm six three, and I'd be around 220 pounds now. 100 kilograms, which I think is bigger than most hockey players.

Yep. And you probably still run a bit like a skater. Like you.

I. I do run exactly like it. Yeah. My start look exactly like a hockey start, which isn't. Isn't very efficient, but gets the job done.

Yeah, yeah. I'm sure you're still one of the fastest, so try to be. Work on that. Right. So go forward in terms of. From that. What did you do? Did you recover? Did you. Did you quit soccer for a period of time? What happened?

Yeah, so soccer. I just fully, fully quit. And it would have been grade 9 or 10. And then I just started playing everything sports for fun. I was. I was doing field hockey. I had been a good cross country runner but quitting soccer made me not very fit anymore. So I stopped doing that. And yeah, I just played everything just to play sports again. Wanted to be with my friends and that's actually what led me to rugby again. I can't remember if it was grade 9 or 10. All my friends were playing rugby on the school team and I just wanted to be able to hang out with them for the hour and a half after school. So I went to rugby training. Had no idea what it was. I remember I wore shin pads my first time, which is ridiculous in hindsight, but again, I had no idea. I wanted to be as protected as possible.

That's right. Knowing all of that collision that you saw.

Exactly. Yeah. So I didn't think I wanted any part in that. But yeah. And then I was playing on the B team in grade nine or 10 and just enjoying myself again. Enjoying playing sports and competing and just being out with my friends.

And you're probably still pretty small then too.

I was very small then. Yeah. I would have been one of the smaller kids in my grade. I remember I looked at the program for my basketball tournament provincials in grade nine.

Yeah.

Possibly grade eight. But I was still under five feet.

Oh gosh.

I think I'd just gotten over 100 pounds.

Oh man.

And I just remember at that age as well, most of the girls had hit their growth spurts as they do earlier. I was just tiny. For guys and girls, there was no winning.

Yeah. You're just out there enjoying life and trying to. It probably. In hindsight probably made you more agile and faster because you had to play a different game against the bigger guys.

Yeah. In hindsight that's what made me as good as I became. I was so small and for my first year I was just running out of fear.

See, Paul was more of that like kind of lanky, fast grower. But he still played all the sports like you did and attributes that to a large part of that development. What were you going to say, Paul?

Yeah, I didn't have. I was pretty much the polar opposite. I was long and lanky and tall, but didn't have any of the coordination or foot speed or any of that that you have. So we're pretty much the two ends of the spectrum. And I'm wondering did along with needing to be fast and from a game perspective, how it shapes your development of at that size, you're not going to win the battles physically. You got to be smarter, quicker and all of that. Did it also fuel the competitive and mental side of and need to prove yourself with the other guys that were bigger or was there any of that element to.

Was definitely fun having a sport where size was such a big part of it, but I was still still able to do well. I progressed pretty quickly into the A team and attack wise I was doing great. I could read the game really well from my soccer background and other sports I could kick.

But did you ever feel like the underdog that you were kind of like a little bit angry that you had to prove to somebody el that you could do it? Or were you always just good enough, even though you were small, that you never had that chip on your shoulder?

Yeah, I don't think I would ever give myself the underdog status, but I think I just never felt the need to compete with guys who were bigger than me. They had their size, but I felt I had other, other attributes that could kind of counteract them. So maybe not a chip on my shoulder, but it felt good that these guys, the way I saw it, got lucky and had muscles and size. I could still beat them in different ways.

Yeah. And then you got that gift later, the muscles and the size. And then it worked out. It all worked out.

And then, yeah, I pretty much hit puberty and started working out all at the same time. So the start of grade 11, I was maybe 5, 10 and 150 pounds. And by the start of grade 12, I was 6, 2 and 200 pounds.

Wow.

So I went from one of the smallest to one of the bigger. The bigger guys.

Did you have any of the Osgood Schlatters or any of the growth issues that some athletes go through just because it's so fast?

Yeah, I didn't. Just because it wasn't really vertical that much. It was mainly just hitting puberty and just adding mass to my body. The one thing was just I still kind of saw the world through my same eyes. So I'd be running at someone I'd be bigger than, but I would think I was smaller than them. So I'd always be trying to avoid the contact. It still feels like that sometimes. I still feel like a smaller player person. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because that's where you first first developed and that's still ingrained.

Yeah. And I guess I've spent half my life now at this size, but I still feel smaller, which is I guess a strange thing now that I say that out loud?

Yeah. Yeah. But it's interesting because people's. Other people's perspectives is completely different. They'll make certain judgments based on what they see and primarily on what they see. Yet it's a whole nother world for what you experience. And that's part of the reason we do this, is to have people understand what's really going on for an athlete.

Yeah, definitely.

So carry us forward. How did you go from where you were just kind of getting into rugby and how did that progress?

So the first time I really knew that I was a good player kind of on my team and within the province we played, I went to St. George's School in Vancouver, which is a private school, and our big rival is Shonegan Lake School, and they always had a very strong rugby program. And I remember we went there and surprised their team and won by a pretty wide margin. I had a good game and the Canada Junior Canada coach came up to me and introduced himself and said he liked what he saw and to keep going.

Um, how did that feel at that time?

Yeah, I was just so surprised that I was even in that conversation. I. Yeah, I'd just been playing for fun at that point. Had been trying to win games with my team and hadn't really thought of aspirations outside of, I guess, winning, winning provincials. So that kind of opened my eyes to another level of the sport.

It was on your radar then?

Yeah, exactly. It wasn't a huge eye opener, but it was enough to make me keep working. I remember my coach talking to me about how now I need to get a little more serious about what I did with my training and food and everything else. That was kind of the very first step.

And how.

I was just going to ask you, how does that kind of feeling or you have that expansion of your kind of worldview of rugby just in you describing that as thinking of myself as a volleyball player and you just play high school and then there's a regional provincial team you want to make, and that's as far as you see. And then once you're on the provincial team, you think maybe want to play in university or it's like the blinders that you have on just slowly get pulled back each step that you make. And you're describing there, you know, junior national team, it wasn't even on your radar. So as those blinders get pulled back, did anything else change? Did you mentioned that obviously the training is going to become more important, but did you get hungrier? Did you become more focused on rugby as soon as you. Somebody Puts that kind of carrot in front of you. I know for me that I was like you doing all those different sports and wouldn't be able to pick one. But as I kind of was exposed to that longer road with volleyball and hey, you could go here or here, that, that kind of focused me in. Was it like that for you?

Yeah, I think it be pretty much the same as you. Like, I didn't really choose rugby, like rugby chose me. It was just kind of the path. I kept making the next step and as you said, seeing a little bit more of what could be done. So I just began as a player who just liked competing, it didn't matter what it was. And then it became rugby. And yeah, it was little by little that the blinders got lifted and it's taken me to where I am today. But yeah, that first step was huge.

So you're. So you went on from there to. Were you going to university then or were they already was the national team? I know they were. They had you on their radar. That's how you ended up in my gym. But did you. How much had you done with the national team at that point?

So nothing at that stage. So I graduated, I graduated high school and I had already decided that I was going to go to New Zealand to work at a high school there. And that decision had been made before. Kind of rugby was a big part of my life. The headmaster of my high school was from New Zealand, so he set that up for me.

What work were you going to do there?

I was pretty much a teacher's aide at a high school called a gap year, I guess more of an English thing, but pretty much a year before university to hang out, see what I want to do. And I wasn't ready for university so I just wanted to take some time.

Yeah, I love that concept totally. How many kids in high school have no clue what they want to do and are being asked to lay down thousands of dollars in a program they may not want to go through with?

Yeah, world experience. Yeah. And yeah, it didn't, it didn't cost me anything. I got paid a little bit. It was pretty much just enough to live. But yeah, it was such a good idea in hindsight and really helped me get ready for not just university, but I guess the rest. The rest of life.

Yeah. International travel, experience with other cultures, getting, you know, all of that that so many people at that age just don't even get to. They choose or don't do any of it because they stay comfortable in one place often.

Yeah. That was the thing that was my first big kind of leap where left my family, left all my friends, everything I've known to go to another country and yet live, live apart. It's something I don't even think about doing now because it's so easy, but it was a big step. But as a 17 year old.

Yeah, that's fantastic. And so take us into some of the most defining points in your career because you, you accomplished something that was massive and that was being selected for both the national team in sevens and fifteens. So tell us a little bit more about that, especially for people who don't know much about rugby.

Well, yeah, so yeah, I was on my gap year, which was in New Zealand, which happens to be the rugby mecca of the world. So that exposed me to just how good players could be and the level. And I came back early from that experience to try out for the junior Canada team. And I made that a year early, which surprised myself, but again showed me how far I could go. And we went to the tournament. I remember we played England and Australia and this is an under 20 team and all their players are fully professional playing in the senior men's league. And we just got killed. I couldn't even tell you the score, but it wasn't pretty. And that in itself is a huge, huge eye opener. Realizing really not that good. And how much more work needs to go into it.

Yeah. And also how underdeveloped Canadian rugby is versus the rest of the world.

Yeah, exactly. They just have such a good system similar to hockey in Canada and yet the Canadian system is nowhere, nowhere near that. Like they've, they've been playing rugby for so long and at such a high level, whereas we were just good athletes that. Yeah, rugby. Yeah. And then, yeah, I played a second year of that, of U20 and I assumed kind of my, that was it for rugby. Like I'd play at Western when I was going to school and other than that I do my degree in engineering and graduate and hopefully get a job. But I got a call from the Canadian Sevens coach. So there's many different forms of rugby, but I guess the main two are Rugby 15s and Rugby 7. And using Paul kind of as an example, with volleyball, there's two. There's the beach and gym. And I guess Paul, you'd agree with me that the beach rugby is more of a spectator sport. It's more to get fans out there and it's kind of a quicker version.

Well, I just say that beach volleyball versus court is just two completely different games. The beach guys are incredible and the beach women, I mean all beach volleyball players. Because it's a different beast, the skills on the beach. I mean, obviously there's a lot of translation between the two, but you know, years ago people would possibly do both, but now it's highly specialized. You're an indoor player or you're a beach player. It's extremely rare that someone does both. Which makes you an anomaly in your sport, which you can kind of explain more here.

Well, yeah, it'd be the same for our sport. So Rugby Sevens is, is the same how? It's seven players on same size field as Rugby 15. So you have to cover all that space. And yeah, I was, I was selected to that team and just ended up playing well. And, and throughout my time at Western, I would go on these trips for two or three weeks at a time traveling around the world and then from there I made the jump to the senior national team, to the 15th team. It just so happened to be a World cup year and they, they asked me to come try out for the team maybe three months before the World Cup. So I went, I went out to a tournament in England called the Churchill cup where we played Italy, Russia and England's second team. And I happened to have a good tournament and from there made it to the rugby World Cup 2011.

Wow, that's incredible.

So Connor, can you describe for us kind of from two perspectives, what is a Rugby World cup like? I'm sure 90% of our listeners have not seen a World cup game. So what is it like just in terms of ambiance and media attention and that whole component? But what is it like for you as a kid from Vancouver, a Canadian, being on that stage? So if you kind of give it to us from both perspectives?

Yeah, well, I got extremely lucky in that my first World cup was in New Zealand. As I said, just a rugby crazy country. So it was wild. I was just turned 21 years old and we'd go out to training where we'd have four to 500 people just watching us train, which is crazy. For some of the highest levels game in Canada, you wouldn't have that many fans. And these, these people just wanted to come out, watch us train and meet us, be around us, talk to us. And it was insane is the only way to describe it. And the New Zealand people were so happy to have us there and really wanted to show us their culture and involve us in their life. And our first game, we played Tonga in the north island of New Zealand and we Won that game right at the end, and I was a replacement that game. I was on the bench and I came in with maybe 20 minutes to go. And I remember our strength coach at the time has told this story before, but everyone was warming up and they knew I was going on the field. Pretty soon the strength coach is like, all right, what do you want to do? What do you need to warm up? Do you want to pass the ball, make a couple tackles? I was like, no, no. Like, I'm ready. Just let me go. He's like, oh, but I don't know, should we get you warm or something? I'm like, I'm warm. And I got on the field and my first touch of the ball again, we were playing Tonga, which are known as a pretty massive team and big hitters, and my first touch of the ball, I just tucked it into one arm like a football player. So there was no chance that I was passing, kicking. The people that I was running at knew I was running. And our captain said after that he saw this happening and thought I was done. He's like, oh, this stupid young kid. Like, what did you do? I think I just surprised the guys I was playing against and happened to run through, made however many meters and then ended up getting tackled. Popped the ball up and that guy went and scored and we ended up winning off that try. Moving forward, just that feel like. I wish I could say I remember it, but I don't. Even right after the game, I had no idea what had happened. It was surreal.

And meanwhile, the story gets passed on because they're all jaw dropped and watching and will never forget it because they're watching you in some of your kind of rookie attempts.

Yeah, yeah, it was. I definitely just got lucky. It's something I would never try nowadays to this day. And it definitely easily could have gone the other way, where.

Oh, yeah, you could have had your head knocked off.

Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, totally. Now, I have to ask this as a. Like, just out of my own curiosity, what's it like playing the. Well, before you even play the All Blacks and you're on the field and they're doing the haka.

Yeah. So the. The hakas is their traditional war dance, which they would use, I guess not that long ago, but in times of war, and it's meant to be a challenge to intimidate the opponent and also to wake up every muscle in the body. So watching it, definitely a very intimidating thing. But when you're on the field and 10 meters away from these guys doing more just kind of locks you in and. And gives you that razor focus. Realizing that you're about to go into battle and this is happening. I don't think there's any intimidation for us. It was just a.

Let's go, step into it.

Yeah. Challenging you. What are you going to do about it? So that was super cool.

In terms of.

That.

When you get down to it, in the game of rugby, it's you against those other men who are trained to take you out, take the ball, run it through you, run it over you. It's incredibly physical. It's purely physical. And talking about the haka and focusing you in. Do you draw when you know you're going up against the best in the world? Where are you drawing your confidence from? Is it the physical training you've been doing, the hitting? What's the biggest source of confidence? I mean, I know as an athlete it's kind of all of those things, but for you personally, where do you find it? Your spark, your drive, your confidence? Because to some extent you have to have a feeling of invincibility, confident to go out there, otherwise you're going to get killed.

What is it for you for that? We pretty much were invincible. We're playing against the best team in the world and now at this stage, they're statistically the best team ever across any sport. And people say it a lot. Go out there, you have nothing to lose. We had literally nothing to lose. If we got scored on, no big deal. It was. Everyone watching the game expected that to happen. If we missed a tackle, it was expected. So we had zero pressure going out there. They were at home in front of their home fans after having lost the last World cup in pretty disappointing fashion. So we could just get out there, express ourselves how we wanted to and.

Just.

Do our best? Pretty much. So it was just a fun game to play. And again, like, it's a strange thing to say, but we had confidence knowing we could do what we wanted, try our best, and that was something we'd be proud of.

Yeah, that's huge. What's one of the. Or the biggest. What's the biggest challenge you've had to overcome.

Just in my sport as a whole or in life?

Could be either.

Yeah, I guess. Well, yeah, Easy answer is I tore my Achilles last year. I tore my right Achilles. I've been dealing with tendonitis for couple years and it eventually just. Just snapped. Luckily, it was a full tier of the Achilles, so there's not really much pain associated with that. But, yeah, I was playing for the national team against Romania in Edmonton. And I knew instantly that had happened. I thought someone had hit me with the bat in the, in the back of the calf or someone had tackled me from behind or something. I didn't have ball.

Yeah.

And then once I realized what had happened, it was, it was pretty heartbreaking How.

What was that like for you?

Well, I was, I was with the Canadian team so I had great medical care right away. They did everything they could. I was saw the best doctors, had surgery, they made sure I had a boot, this and that. And then it was pretty much just me from there. I had to wait nine months until it repaired itself.

But you were on a pro contract at that time as well?

Yeah. So I had just finished my first year with a team in France and I had just switched teams to a new team. So I spent five weeks in Vancouver at my parents house while I was on crutches just recovering. And then I came over to my new team and I was still on crutches for two weeks. So I showed up to my new team unable to play. I didn't know anyone, I didn't know anyone in the city. It's in France and my French isn't very good. And yeah, it was a really, really difficult time.

So you basically, you've had everything that you're happy about, confident with, and everything that your identity is wrapped up in taken away with. With one injury because you can't play, you're in the midst of trying to heal and then at the same time there's all this unknown going to a new place. But there's also probably that back end stress of going, okay, well, I still have to prove myself to my new team and I can't do anything. And I don't know how it is in terms of honoring contracts for rugby, but you know, sometimes there's that little nagging thought of are they gonna still honor my contract? And you know, like, I can't even imagine what all of that wrapped up was like for you.

Yeah, there are definitely a lot of, a lot of moving parts because it happened with the national team and just kind of sorting out insurance and who was paying me. That was a big headache. But yeah, as you said, the biggest thing was that I came to a new team and I hadn't proven myself. It just felt like for the eight months that I was here that I wasn't part of the team. And it's definitely my perception after I played my first game, it's not like my teammates treated me any different. They were always Treat me, always treat my friends. But it's my perception of myself. I felt for so long like.

I.

Wasn'T part of the team. Like what. What am I doing here?

Did you have anyone to talk to? Did you know a few of the players going in or was it completely blind? Was there anyone that you could sound off of?

It was pretty much 100% blind. There was, plus the language. I had one teammate from my former team that came, but he was French, so we could only speak about very superficial things. And then, yeah, it was pretty tough. I guess the only people I could really talk about it with were my rugby playing friends from home. But with the time change and with they have their own lives going on, it's pretty tough. And yeah, I just kind of separated myself and I was just in this town.

Were you, would you say you were somewhat depressed?

Oh yeah. I wouldn't guess that it. I was definitely pretty depressed. It's hard to have kind of your identity taken away. I see myself as a rugby player and to have that taken away was. Was tough. And then I'm sure Paul knows, like just as an injured player, you're on a different schedule to the rest of the team. So I wouldn't even see the team for kind of days on end. And then they go off to play the game, come back, they're excited or they're sad. It's just I can't really share that with the team. So around the maybe four months, Denmark was kind of when I was at my lowest. It was November, December. Yeah, it's winter here, it's dark. I've already been doing this four months. I still have another four or five months to go and there's a lot of kind of doubt like, will I ever be able to play again? If will I be any good? Yeah, it was a lot to deal with. That's definitely tough to go through it alone.

What do you think helped in that? It could be the tiniest thing. But what were some of the little tiny rays of light for you going through that?

Yeah, there's I guess two I can think of off the top of my head. One of my friends had had the same injury maybe nine months before me. So I talked to him a lot about certain things with it. And then also, I guess just during that four month period when I was at my lowest talking to him about that and he said he felt the exact same way. And just talking to him, someone who's gone through it, helped a lot. And then also we have a rehab coach here who I was with every day and he might be the happiest person on the planet. I would come in sometime just so low and unhappy and not abuse him, but be pretty rude, maybe belligerent. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes he'd tell me what we were doing today and I'd be like, no, I'm not doing anything today. And yeah, he's just really understanding and he, I guess he came to gain my trust. He began to trust me and just always being there with his smile and just encouraging words which so huge and really helped me along.

It's amazing the perspective you have after when you can see what actually brought you through. And at the time there's no way you can see that that's helping at all because nothing at the time seems to be doing anything and. But after the fact, you know, it's those things and those people, it turns out, are just vital to getting through it and putting one foot in front of the other, quite literally.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's funny, he's the rehab coach for everyone and in France, every morning you shake the hand of everyone you see. You can easily tell who's had long term injuries by the guys that are so excited to see them and have a really good rapport with him in the morning. It's pretty funny watching that in the morning. I never noticed till one of my friends pointed it out.

Yeah, it's interesting because it's those key relationships that you spend all this time with this one person and it creates that lifeline that you needed at the time. And another thought that came in when you're describing that is something that Paul has always been very in tune with and that is just the community that seems to be almost everywhere in Europe there's a much different type of relating on a day to day basis that then what we have, I think here in North America. Would you. Do you know what I mean? When I'm.

Yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. Yeah.

There's just social practices that are a little bit different but special and important, I think. And I was in France for seven years and a great example is that if I walked into a doctor's office and there's a few people in the waiting room, you say bonjour and everyone replies. And regardless of whether you've ever seen them in your life or will ever see them again, there's that common courtesy that's just extended. And every morning when you greet everyone on the team, like you said, it's shake the hand, you look them in the eyes and there's that tiny moment of connection that I really miss here in North America. I could walk into the office today and potentially not even say a word to certain coworkers because that practice isn't in place. And it's. It's a really small thing, but a really big thing.

Yeah, that's. That's one of my. My favorite things. Just. Yeah, like you said, shaking the hand and making eye contact and just pretty much knowing that you've seen that person today. And yeah, it makes such a. Such a huge difference just in terms of being part of a team and also just being. Being social creatures.

Yeah. And you realize how important it is when you've come from a dark and low place as well.

Yeah. Yeah. It's nice to get that little bit of connection, no matter how small.

I'm going to ask you a few questions here if that's all right. So what is something that you want people to know about you that maybe most people don't? Is there kind of a. I don't know, a quirky thing, a habit, something like that that most people don't know about you?

I was trying to think, as you asked, that I guess quirky is. I can ride a unicycle.

That counts. That counts.

Something I'm super proud of. I've always told my rugby playing friends that. And we went to the Commonwealth Games in 2015, and at the opening ceremonies, these, I guess, acrobat came flying out on unicycles, started going around and my buddy went nuts. And then the acrobat stopped and kind of the procession was over and they were still there. My buddy's like, all right, now's your chance to prove it. So there's however many hundred people there as I'm like talking to this person, asking if I could use their unicycle. And now everyone's turned to see this. I'm like, oh, my God. And to my credit, I made it maybe 10 meters. I'll say it wasn't set up perfectly, but it at least proved I could ride a unicycle under high pressure.

Hopefully somebody filmed it to go down in history.

I'm sure it's out there somewhere. I think a second one that all rugby players will attest to is just my love of romantic comedies.

I'm sorry.

We can be big and strong and tackle people all we want, but there'll always be room for watching a good romantic comedy.

That's awesome.

Well, then, what's your favorite romantic comedy?

Friends with Benefit, closely followed by no Strings Attached. They Both came out at around the same time. They're literally the exact same movie, but it's just always the same. The people meet, they're great, they're happy. There's a small little dip unhappiness. And then it always ends happy. What's not to like?

That's the thing about that. That's so true. You know the formula so you know it's not gonna be stressful at the end. It's gonna be a happy ending. So is that. Is that kind of the situation you have now with your girlfriend? Was it a one of the romantic comedies?

Exactly. Yeah, we. Yeah, I guess we're still in the honeymooning period of the relationship and hopefully there won't be any dick.

There'll be dips.

Yeah, I'm sure there'll be dips.

Thanks.

I hate to say it, but she's.

Coming over Wednesday, so I'm super excited. Oh, that's great. Great to have someone else here with me.

That's amazing. Is she. How long is she staying?

Just three weeks. And I can't remember if I mentioned how small my town is, but it is tiny. So pretty much just seeing how much she likes it. After the initial love of all the old buildings.

Yeah, yeah.

I'll be able to show her the town in 15 minutes and then I'm out by the end.

Yeah, exactly. Then she's gonna have to help you with the agenda.

Yeah.

So that's a whole other matter when you're playing pro and you're overseas and you've got a loved one that's really far away. Paul and I have been through that and I think that was. We used to go on Skype. That's how we'd communicate. And every once in a while I'd go on Skype and there was an eight hour time difference between the two of us. And I'd see this mark on his lips and I was like, what is going. And it turned out he'd have a wine mustache. Are you drinking a little there? Are you okay?

Easy, easy.

He's just indulging in French culture.

Yeah, well, he was in Turkey at.

The time, so no excuses. Then it would have been French wine.

Yeah, exactly. But point being is that it was a tough time to be apart. And how do you manage that, being in a long distance relationship, playing pro? What are the little tips you might give?

I guess, yeah, as you said, communication is key and the eight hour time difference is awful. But we always try to Skype twice a day or I guess FaceTime now.

Yep.

Just kind of before I'm going to bed and she's waking up and then the reverse as well. But it's definitely hard. And I do feel like I'm missing out on so much being over here. Like, I have tons of good friends here and a good, good life. But it's still not the same as back in Canada with people I've known for years and grew up with in my formative years. And I've thought about it, but it feels like for a lot of foreigners, they. They don't end their career when their play declines or whatever it may be. It's more just that pull of going home gets to be so big. Like, long distance is obviously not something you can do forever, nor would want to do for that long. So I think that's going to become. Well, it already is just a tough thing to deal with.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, Paul, you'd be able to say this, that the living out of the suitcase and the, you know, the need to be with your kids was a big thing. Yeah.

It's always there in the back of your mind, that just slight feeling of instability, that sense of not having permanence anywhere. Living out of the suitcase, it is tough and it does wear you down. I know. Like you said, Conor, I probably. I stopped playing before I had to.

Yeah, but.

But from your side, looking forward, what are the goals?

Where.

Where do you still want to get to in rugby?

What.

What drives you?

Oh, yeah, I guess possibly the same as everyone else. I want to be the best player I can be. I want to be the best player in the world and always working towards that. Right now I'm playing for a team in the second division of France and we're definitely in. In the top of that division, but we need to win the league to gain promotion to the next league. And I'm sure France is similar to a lot of other countries where there's a limit on the amount of foreigner players that each team is allowed. So it's pretty tough to get into a top league team and also tough to get into a team, a team in my league, being a foreigner. So I'm just pretty lucky to be here right now. And, yeah, the goal is just to do well with the team I'm on and gain promotion to the top league. That'll be something I can be very proud of.

How long is your contract with that team?

I have another. I have this year and one more year and yeah, I'll hopefully end up extending here.

That's great.

Yeah. Again, not the Best city in France, but the actual club and supporters in that are top.

And what about national team?

So with the national team, we have our last chance. Qualify for the World cup in Japan, which takes place next year. The qualifiers in November in France, funnily enough. So I'm hoping to make my way into that team. I'm still not quite 100% for my Achilles pair, so I'm hoping to kind of sort out all the kinks and be ready to go if I get the call for that team.

It's one of the toughest things and I've seen many players go through, especially Paul, in that as a pro player, you have to play even if you're not 100%, and there's all kinds of compromises you're making along the way. And it's rare that you're actually playing at 100%, yet that's what you're being asked of from a national team. Typically.

Yeah. I remember we had Simon Whitfield come and talk to us on time. This was with the Rugby Sevens team, the guys and the girls. I can't actually remember what the talk was about, but I remember he asked a question of who feels 100%, put your hands up. And I think he was expecting kind of most people to have their hands up and that he was going to talk on the minority. And no one put their hand up. Everyone's dealing with something. Everyone's hurt.

Yeah.

And, yeah, now that I'm getting paid for it, and it's my profession, if they ask me to go out there and play, I'll get out there and do my best. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's that dream of going forward with your national team, representing your country and then. Yeah, it's kind of a. It's a big thing. How would you say, what's one of the little things, like small things that you do that has a big impact for you and it could be in relation to sport or life or training or relationships. What's one of those little things that really has a big impact for your life?

It's a great question, I think. I think reading would be a big one. I read a lot of fantasy books, which similar. It's kind of the Game of Thrones type thing.

Nice.

It's just such an escape from everything. It's so different from every aspect of my life. And it's not like a learning book where I have to focus on every word. So even Today, earlier, it's 5pm.

It'S.

Sick here in France. I went down by the river in the sun and was just reading by the river. And that's just a great kind of recovery, mental recovery, and feel pretty rejuvenated after that.

It's kind of one of those things that a lot of your buddies or peers in university look at you and go, oh my God, he's living the life. He's, he's playing pro, you know, he's reading in France and it's, it's an amazing thing, right? But you have an, you have an engineering degree. What, what does your life look like after, after rugby? What do you, what do you see yourself doing? Or what is. Have you looked that far? What does that look like for you?

Yeah, I think to be the best athlete I can be, trying to stay in the moment and focus just on my rugby career. But I have looked past obviously getting my engineering degree. It's still kind of up in the air, but I have a love of traveling and I don't think that's going to change. So I hope to maybe work in different countries while I'm still young. And yeah, I'm not sure if engineering's what I want to be doing. I'm thinking about going to business school as well to get my mba.

Nice.

But I think just pretty much trying different things and seeing what I want to do. I still feel young and I just like to keep trying everything. Nothing's stuck on full yet, but keep experimenting and I'll see where I end up.

Yeah, and that's a great way to kind of experience the adventure of life. And yeah, we really want to travel lots too, so maybe we'll meet up somewhere. You never know. I have a few little rapid fire questions here for you. So we've got your favorite types of movies. What about your favorite types of books, what about food? Or for me, if I were to specify this, I like to know people's favorite dessert because I love sweets. But what's a favorite dessert or food?

I'd go Japanese or Thai food.

Yeah.

And I don't have much of a sweet tooth, to be honest. I love chip, but if I am feeling it, I'm a big fan of white chocolate New York cheesecake with some raspberry sauce on it.

Holy. That's about the sweetest thing you could go for.

I love that exact thing for some reason.

Oh, that's hilarious. And what about your favorite hobby? You have a outside of sport hobby?

Trying to think, I guess. I guess readings. Readings are already been said. Netflix. Pretty. Pretty much anything that low, actually, I'll definitely go with Hiking.

There you go.

I love hiking, and especially to some sort of water body, be it a nice river, waterfall, nice lake.

You've posted some amazing photos of some of the places that you. Places you've hiked that look incredible.

Yeah. I'm so lucky being born in Vancouver where there's so many. I've done so many nice hikes and there's still so many more that can be done.

Yeah. What tip would you have to young upcomers in your sport? Little tip or advice?

It's hard to give a tip without being cliche, but I think beyond just working hard is to make sure you're having fun. And yeah, if you're not having fun, then change something, be it the sport or the environment you're in or whatever it may be. But you'll. I'm getting paid to play rugby, but I still have a lot of fun. So if you're not having fun doing something, you're not going to keep doing it and you're not going to improve and not going to end up being that great at it.

Yeah. And of course, I've got to ask this one because it's. It's in my wheelhouse, but what are your favorite or least favorite training workouts? Favorite.

And you can mention a workout that you had with Kari if you want to get some.

You don't need to. You don't need to.

It's definitely workouts you would put me through. Kari and your. Any sort of running workout. You used to make us run along the path by the river and it'd be sprinting for a bit, then jogging and yeah, definitely aerobic fitness is not my favorite and that hasn't changed since university.

Too bad you're in rugby.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess there's no getting around it.

What about some faves? What are you loving? Are you loving some heavy lifts right now? Are you?

I love doing snatches. I feel like they're so useful for the sport. And I've gotten better since.

I was gonna say your shoulders can take it. Your shoulders are tolerating that.

It's 100% a power snatch. If I bend into an overhead squat at all, then my arms drop forward.

Thanks for clarifying.

And yeah, now I'm getting more into mobility work as well, which you'll be happy to hear. So I'm really enjoying kind of finding new ranges of motion and new exercises to be doing.

Oh, that's fantastic.

Yeah. And it's strange to me doing things that can't be judged quantitatively, like with weightlifting there's always a number you can go for, but mobility and stretching, it's. It's more just feel. And that.

Yeah, load and speed are that thing that you kind of rely on for so long and then you realize that you got to go into something else that doesn't feel familiar.

Yeah, exactly.

And just to kind of wrap up here. What kind of. And this is. This may not be something you've thought of because you're really focused on your sport and in the now, but do you have an idea? After you're long gone from sport, long gone from your life, you've left this earth? What kind of legacy do you think you want to have left behind?

I think I maybe alluded to it a bit earlier. I hope it has minimal to do with rugby and is more about the type of person I am. I'm definitely very proud of all the rugby things I've done and how far I've taken the sport and how much it's given me, but just like to be remembered as a good person, good, good sibling, good, good son and hopefully good father when the time comes.

That's incredible. Well, I can certainly say that we are so fortunate for knowing you and we're, you know, it's. You're such an incredible athlete, and I'm sure, as Paul has learned over the years, that there are so many people's lives that you're affecting who are watching you and you don't realize are watching and, you know, you're putting that out there just by your work ethic and by how much effort and how much drive you have that has an impact on other people. So we're really, really grateful to have you on here and thank you for your contribution. Is there anything you want to leave off with?

Just thank you so much for having me. This is a great honor and it's. It's great to be on here with. With few people as distinguished as you, both professionally and in your personal, personal lives. So, yeah, thanks. Thanks a lot for having me on it. And it's been fantastic couple. Couple tough questions as well that have got me thinking past this interview.

That's a good question.

Thanks very much, Connor.

Yeah, I'm going to be in France now doing. Doing some deep thinking alone.

Until your girlfriend comes.

Exactly.

Okay, well, thank you so much, Connor. Take care.

Thanks a lot for having me, guys.

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