Michele Graglia - Ultra Marathoner

This is episode 154 of the Empowered team podcast. Welcome to the Empowered team podcast, where we explore how to optimize your performance in career, sport, and life. And now your host, vitality and peak performance coach Kari Schneider.

Welcome. Welcome. It's Nikki Graglia, and I'm probably butchering that Michele, so excuse my lack of Italian pronunciation. I've got a little bit of French, a little bit of Pig Latin, but that's. That's about it. So welcome. We are so happy to have you on the Empowered Team podcast. You have an incredible.

Sorry. Thanks so much for having me.

Oh, no problem. So you are an ultra marathoner, but that identity or title does not do you justice. You've got a Guinness Book of world Records. You've won incredible races like the Badwater, the Death Valley, and you come from a background that most would consider unlikely for maybe the ultra marathon world. So that's my small take on things. Can you give us a little bit of a snapshot of where you came from and how you got into ultra?

Oh, absolutely. Well, again, thanks for having me. It's great to connect with you today. Yeah, I would say I've had a pretty unlikely journey in my life. I was born and raised in Italy in a small town on the northwest coast. And, you know, I grew up like all kids out there, you know, fascinated with soccer and, you know, hanging out with the family. And right after the studies, I actually started working in the family business in the floral industry. And thanks to that, eventually I decided to spend, you know, I started working with international markets, and 2007 came around, and I decided to spend some time across, you know, across the pond, specifically in Miami, Florida, which at the time was the main port of entry for us. And, you know, perhaps to improve the language and expand the business. And, you know, at the time, I was actually even looking into opening up a branch and doing something on my own, in a way. But first week I landed in Florida, I very much by chance, I got scouted by a renowned modeling agent, and right out there, Ocean Drive, I was still looking for an. And, you know, one thing led to another, and that day, I walked out of her office with a contract in hand. That literally changed my life completely. You know, I was 24 years old at the time, and, you know, again, coming from a small town in Italy, found myself in Miami, introduced to this whole new world. You know, it felt like a dream. And that's how pretty much it all started. You know, at that point, I started working down in Miami, and Started picking up momentum. So, you know, I had the opportunity to travel quite a bit between, you know, New York, Milan and all those, you know, Paris, London, all those big spot fashion spots. And life was good. You know, life was great actually. You know, not only on a career level, financial level, but also on a personal level because again, you know, you got introduced to this whole new industry and I started riding that wave and you know, started working with the biggest names in the, in the world, in the, in the fashion industry, started working with the biggest photographers and clients. And it was very rewarding. There was very rewarding also in a sense of, you know, you get introduced to that whole lifestyle, everybody wants you. Everybody, you know, you, you represent that image, right? So, you know, clubs and restaurants, everybody wants you here, everybody wants your day. Everything is handed out. And for a bit, you know, for a, for a chapter, at least for a little portion of that time, felt like the king of the world. You know, it's, it was rep. I was living that image of success that is portrayed in movies and TVs and all of that as that, you know, the status that you reach that certain status, you're making money, you're parting with the celebrities and socialite and. But you know, you think like that's, that's what it's all about. And, and it was, it was, it was fantastic for, for a period of time until I just, you know, I started getting, you know, sucked up into it and, and you also then realized the negative side. You know, it's, it's all fancy and glamorous until you don't kind of, you know, look at the backside of the coin. And the flip side was, you know, the detrimental lifestyle that came with it. You know, sex, drugs and rock and roll, whatever it was. But you know, that's, that's fun up a certain point, then you realize how shallow and empty that leaves you. And so I started going through a very deep, I would say, personal crisis. I don't want to necessarily say depression because everything was great. You know, I had a, at that point I moved to New York, I. To deepen my, you know, my presence in the biggest market. And despite, you know, the apartments I had here and there, the cars and partying still, and, you know, the money, that financial reward that I was getting, I started getting into a very like, in a deep sense of dissatisfaction, I just couldn't find, I couldn't find purpose or fulfillment behind everything that I was doing. Again, it was, I was pursuing that image, but then realized that that wasn't the answer for me. And so I went through, you know, a few episodes that eventually made me reassess my whole, or actually not necessarily a set, but made me question my whole existence. I came to a very, very critical bottom point where I even contemplated, you know, ending it all. You know, I speak about it in my book that recently launched Ultra, you know, was a cold spring night, 2009, and I just, you know, came back from another. From yet another party filled with celebrities and bottles and all of those things, and, you know, walked home to my. To my apartment in Battery park. And, you know, it was a very cathartic, let's say, that moment of my life, just because I came to really question myself, what I was doing and if it was all worth it. And so, you know, I sat outside the 15th floor of my apartment window, and I sat out there for a long time thinking if it was, you know, what was all about, what am I doing with this life of mine? And that very moment that, you know, as at the crack of dawn, I came to the realization that it's never, you know, nothing is ever all lost. You know, we always have the opportunity to, you know, if we're not content, if we're not happy in a certain moment in our lives, we can at any moment, doesn't matter what age or circumstances, we can always climb out of that pit. We can always look up and see the light, and we can always reinvent ourselves. You know, nothing is set in stone. Nothing is forever. So that realization and also the love of my family kind of brought me back into my senses and made me realize that all I needed to do was to pick myself up and change. And so change I did, or at least I looked for it. And, you know, for a good portion of time, I started digging within to discover and find out what could have. Give me a new verb, you know, a new perspective in life to climb out of that pit and find joy once again. And so, you know, I. I very much retraced everything back to the roots. You know, I was raised. Born and raised in Italy. I had a, you know, great fortune to have a family to introduce me to, you know, in a way, to nature and appreciation for nature and the outdoors from a very young age. You know, we were. We live by the Mediterranean Sea, but we had the Alps right behind. So we ski the Alps in the winter. We hiked the Dolomites in the summer. So I was very fortunate to be introduced to that or at least feel that connection right from. From a very young age. And so all these things kind of gave me again a sense of like a breath of fresh air. I started at that moment living in New York City, feeling caged in that concrete jungle. The, you know, the desire to explore the outdoors and reconnect to nature and, you know, find adventure. It kind of gave me excitement. So I started reading a bunch of things and started watching documentaries of explorers and adventures of all kinds from high mountain climbers, ocean rowers, all type of stuff. It was all great, but nothing really spoke to me until.

So hold on, hold on.

Sorry.

At this point, I'm visualizing the scenario and sensing the plethora of pleasures that you're experiencing. The significance around other people. The highs from the drugs, the highs from the money, the status, the new experiences, the recognition, all of these things that are coming. And then it's almost like this full circle of realizing that just the simplest, simplest things that you always had. The love of your family, the raw joy, the dogs in the background.

Yes, apologies. It's actually the dog wanting me to open the door for it to come in. I'm sorry. That's the beauty of the live.

I love it. I love it.

There we go.

It's all coming back in this, in this way of simplicity of. It almost sounds like you never would have appreciated what you always had had you not gone to that other, other extreme. And so one of the questions I have in. When you're pursuing, when you're going back to nature, you're connecting with maybe adventures or the Alps or different situations, and you're not quite finding the right thing at that point. Are you still connected with the party buddies, the modeling friends? Are you still in the world of modeling at that time as well?

Well, I had to, you know, I discovered, eventually discovered in the Christmas time of 2010, eventually I discovered ultra running. And it was like a lighting bulb. I was like, you know, it's like a moment of like, okay, this is it. I don't know why. And you know, I never ran a marathon. I never, I never really, you know, I ran a little cross country track when I was like in middle school, early years of high school, like pretty much all of us did. But, you know, I never been a retro runner. Actually at the time I was a beefy gym guy. You know, being in fair as a model. And period of time I still had to play that game in the modeling world and I still had to do what I needed to do to, you know, to pay the bills. I had, you know, a whole system set up. I was still Traveling, doing all of that. But I was, in a way, I found out something that truly called me and, and the more I was transitioning towards ultra running because again, to me it was such an incredible moment in my life that it was almost like a calling. I didn't know how, I didn't know why, I didn't know when, but my desire was to commit myself wholeheartedly to that craft and I was committed to making my life, to making my career. It's almost like, you know, I was living a completely different life and perhaps following the, you know, the teachings of most of the motivational, you know, motivational characters that we have in our, you know, in our society and the American dream, you know, you can, you can do it if you want to. You know, if you really dedicate yourself, you can achieve whatever you set out to do. You know, I believed it and I was like, I don't know how, but I'm going to do it. And so, you know, as you already.

Had the example of showing up in Miami and having everything fall on your lap, but then, but how, you know, if you've never run a marathon, you've never run an ultra, it seems mind boggling to think that you've committed so deeply or find it as a calling when you don't even know what the struggle or the pain is.

Right, right, right. You know, that didn't matter. That didn't. And that's, you know, that's, that's a great message that I think, you know, the message that I like to share and that transcends the discipline in itself, you know, sport, is that whatever calls you, whatever passion, whatever desire you have and I, you know, we all have a deeper desire. You know, when we go, I remember when, you know, first day of school, elementary school, I remember the teachers telling us, you know, asking us, what do you want to be when you grow up? And everybody wants to be an astronaut. He wants to be something spectacular. And then, you know, the societal trend shrinks us down to the stat, you know, you need to kind of put yourself into a box and fit in the status, the societal, you know, whatever it is your construct. There you go. Yeah. And so, you know, we tend to put our dreams on the side because, you know, we lack probably faith in ourselves. We stop, you know, believing in ourselves. And so, you know, we, perhaps we are, we tend to be, you know, to just feel comfortable in what is, you know, the sense of security that a normal job, a normal career will give you. But that's, that shrinks your Souls down. That doesn't allow you to spread your wings and actually live the life that you are meant to live. And so to me, all of these things spoke personally, spoke directly. And I was like, you know what, I don't care that I've never been a runner. This is the life. You know, I, the reason why I felt so connected to this is because that one book by Dean Carnazes called Ultramarathon man was so mind blowing, mind blowing, mind boggling. These feats of endurance, these adventures, like pushing you outside your comfort zone, pushing outside everything that you know to find a deeper connection and find your true potential. Like, it was so fascinating. But more than that, I very much connected to the author. You know, he was, he discovered ultra running at 30 years old. I was 27 at the time. And you know, despite the fact that we came from two different careers, he was a successful businessman working for a Fortune 500. And on my end, I was a successful model. But, you know, we came to the same conclusion. We achieved material success. We achieved that, you know, dream of whatever, you know, hitting a certain social status and yet not finding fulfillment, not finding, you know, contentment. And so that spoke to me completely because again, he was able, in a short, you know, in a span of a short few years to reinvent himself completely. And so I said, you know, what if he did it, why can't I?

Yeah.

So his, his example paved the way for me to pretty much question everything that I was doing and commit myself to this nonsense, let's say. And you know, fast forward 10 years later, we're here talking.

So I have to, I have to get this snapshot of your first race because most people, even, most people who have trained for a marathon, never fully trained for the full distance, let alone an ultra. And having, having, you know, I've done distance races, I've done various things. I've trained a number of people for, whether it's marathons, ultras, other types of endurance things. A lot of them who are first timers, especially first timers, don't complete training of the full distance of the event.

Right.

Tell us about leading into your first race. It was Death Valley, wasn't it? It was the bad water.

Well, no, no, no. The first race I did was actually the keys 100 down in South Florida.

Yes.

And what happened there? So I, you know, I, and it's funny because, you know, again, I started reading that book, um, I found out about ultra marathons at the end of 2010, right around the Christmas holidays, January 1st. Bought a first, you know, bought my first pair of shoes. I started running laps in Central Park. Committed to be, I wanted to be part of it. I wanted to, you know, I, I always in a way, love running, but it wasn't about running. It was about ultra. It was about going beyond the physical, going beyond running. And that's what. Finding out what we're truly capable of and not accepting the limits that are given to us, but venturing into the unknown in a way to find out what we're truly capable of. And that's what fascinates me today, to this day. And so, you know, when I started running back in 2011, I, I wasn't interested in running a half marathon or running a marathon. And I'm not talking down to any of those distances because they're all absolutely respectable and fascinating and they all, you know, even a 5K is an outstanding.

Challenge, so is what you were inspired by.

And so, you know, I would, I wanted to be part of that. I wanted to see what it was all about. So I looked online, I found those keys, the keys down in Florida. And I was like, you know what, let's pull the trigger. I signed up for my first race, which was a hundred miler, so I jumped in head first. In those four, four and a half months, I literally killed myself because I started, you know, I knew nothing about how to train.

Yeah. How to periodize. Yeah. So what I did, I don't know.

I just went out and ran. So what I did, you know, I. Doing a lot of research online because I knew nobody that did this type of thing. So I didn't have any, you know, any access to, to people that I could talk about, it could, you know, draw some experience from. And so I started doing researches online and I landed on several web, several blogs at the time of these top athletes running, you know, winning races and documenting their training. And my thought was.

And they're the blisters and bleeding nipples and all those things.

Yeah, yeah, that was just like, you know, a side effect of it, but it didn't matter. So to me, to me, the thought that, the simple thought was, okay, if these guys are successful and this is how they train, all I have to do is train like they do and I'll be good to make sense. Right. The problem is you don't look at years to get to that point. So I literally ran myself into the ground. I started from basically 10, 20 miles a week to up about 140 in a matter of four months.

Two things that come to Mind training age and beginner stupidity. Those are the two things.

I was like, complete stupidity there. Yup. Nonsense. But, you know, awesome. You know, if nobody tells you you cannot do, doesn't matter, you do it. And so I did. You know, I ran through injuries, I ran through setbacks. I ran through the cold of the New York winter to then toe the line in the. In mid May, down in the tropics, and with a handheld and, you know, handheld in my hands and a short, short pair of short shorts and no, no shirt. And I was like, all right, let's run. So, you know, I. I tow the line with high hopes and great desire to do it to. To understand what Dean was talking about. And I ran. I ran, I ran, I ran until I could run no more. And in mile 84, I passed out cold. I woke up in an ambulance with my family, which came from Italy to crew for me, crying, begging me to never do it again. And that's how it started.

Mickey, no. Mickey, no.

Please.

Don'T do this to us and yourself.

Don't do it again. That's complete insanity. But, you know, for whatever reason, that sparked even more the desire to. To do it. To do it more. To do it, you know, to venture beyond that point and understand if I could actually do it. You know, I licked my wounds. It took me a long time to. To kind of get back on my feet because that. That first race was literally a death march. You know, the one thing, though, that gave me somewhat of, you know, the lift in my spirit was the fact that when I passed out, I was about, you know, just over half marathon to go, and I was in the lead. And so, you know, I was like, okay, if I get to. If I get my knowledge right, if I explore more this whole thing, because, you know, race made me understand that it's not just about running. You need to discover, you need to know more about nutrition, about hydration, about self management, about the mental, all of these things. And, you know, with that knowledge, without understanding that I could. That I could be good at it, I started diving it even more. And eventually, six months later, I tow the line to a 50 miler. I won that race. Month later, I towed the line to 100k. I won that race. And so, you know, it was like, it was almost like feeding off of itself, you know, that positivity. I was like, okay, the more I know, the more I dedicate, the better I'm getting, so why not go all in? And so that's what I did, you know, in the following two years, basically I, I drifted more and more away from modeling to become more and more of a runner. And in 2014, 2015, I actually signed my first contract and I was able to make the switch.

That's incredible. First of all, and I can't even imagine the amount of training you've put in as well. What I, what I want, what I'm curious about is you've got this extreme on one end of this high flying lifestyle and, and these extreme physical and emotional and pleasurable experience experiences and that can be addictive because we've got this dopamine dump in our brain. You know, it's like the next price tag, the next purchase, the next contract, the next thing. This is the extreme on the other end. But there's so many parallels in some ways just the, there's, it's still an extreme. It's still kind of this, this top end of something that's so, so different. Do you think this is part of this want for the limit? Like the limit of yourself or the limit of experience or what, what do you think? You know, I see some parallels there and some extreme differences. What do you, what do you think of it for yourself?

Well, you know, I, I can tell you there are a lot of ultra runners that are recovering addicts, whether they're, you know, alcohol or drugs, you know, or whatever, you know, because you get that dopamine reward, as you were saying. And so, you know, switching it to ultra running kind of allow them to take away that negative and make it into somewhat of, you know, you're working on yourself, you're, you're working on your physical and your emotional, your mental. So it's somewhat of a positive, but it still is an addiction. And I get that. And that's pretty much how we started for me. And I don't want to say like it was necessary necessarily like a switch of addictions, but at the beginning to me was somewhat of a positive slash negative because it was a way to get away. It was almost like I was running away from that and it gave me an opportunity to pursue something else. But over the years, dad became from, you know, it changed direction from. Instead of running away from it, he started going towards it, he started accepting what it was. And you know, I don't do it for the, necessarily for the, you know, as a, as a swapping addictions, rather I, I change completely my, you know, my perspective towards it. It's. Right now I don't get out there because I need to, you know, to feel, you Know, swamped with adrenaline, endorphins, all of those pleasurable things. But it's just become a way for me to pursue. It's a different pursuit. It's a pursuit of self growth. It's a pursuit of finding purpose. It's a pursuit of fulfillment. And so that to me, changed the record completely. It changed the direction. It's no longer a negative thread. It's an empowering journey of self growth, of self development. And that is absolutely addictive in a different way. But it's not a negative addiction. It's a positive addiction that allows me to, in a way, get up every morning with the understanding that everything I'm doing is to better myself, to become the better version version of myself every single day. So there is purpose behind it. It's not just getting out because I need to find that to satisfy my physical self. It's a higher calling.

In my opinion, at this point, it sounds like there's. It sounds like there's a spiritual exploration in it. And it also sounds too like I've heard a definition of addiction as the narrowing of what, what someone can find any sort of pleasure from. It just narrows and narrows and narrows as to what someone can find pleasure from. But this sounds more like a broadening of that and more of an explanation, exploration of what's possible in, in your own experience.

That's absolutely right.

If on that same thread, if, if Ultra was taken away from you, what, what, what would you feel or what would that be like for you? Someone just. Boom.

Well, you know, that's a very. I would say that's a really good question.

In Covid, maybe that. That was the reality a year ago. Ultra's gone.

No, because of COVID And you know that, you know, I very much, I love the question. It's a very challenging question. And I relate to that because. Exactly. Last year, you know, all our securities, our sense of control fell apart. And you know, we know races know things ahead. It was very challenging at the beginning to kind of reset and reassess the situation, to kind of find what. Because, you know, you have to find, you have to motivate, you have to find the right motivation. What inspires you, the why. Why you doing what you're doing. Because, you know, when they're going get stuff, you have to have that anchor and that, that relates, you know, that transcends the sport and they can relate to anybody, you know, relationship, careers, businesses, whatever. So you have to have a strong why. And you know, if your why is all is just racing because you get that addiction from it. That's, that's short lived in my opinion. So to me it was very much another journey within to kind of retrace it back to the roots and not doing what I'm doing because I need to set records or win races, but doing what I'm doing because that's just who I am and that's what gives me purpose every single day. That's what gives me joy. Like I find contentment in the simple act of getting out there and connecting with myself, running and connecting to nature, with nature. Exploring the trails and the mountains around me. So not doing it because I need to get a reward after it or because I need to achieve something, but doing it because that's what I enjoy to do. As simple as that.

Yeah, you know, there's such a difference between, there's such a difference between some of the things you've said. Joy, contentment, fulfillment, experience, connection to nature, which, you know, people.

Yeah, you can relate to. Yeah, I kind of get that.

But if for those who are listening, there's lake, trees and sky in my background and if you can hear the waves, then that gives you an idea of where I am with nature. But so it was joy, that connection, that deep fulfillment. That's a very different experience of life than going for the next goal without expert, experiencing what's happening along the way, without fully embracing all of the failures and the learnings and the, the experiences instead of thinking that the achievement is the only thing there is. It's so empty compared to that. What's possible just because it's possible except experiencing the world and something different and challenging just because you can and really embracing all of it.

Yep. You know, I, that, that very much resonates with me and, and the journey that I've had to discover these things. You know, we, we, we are, we are told that we need to do certain things or achieve certain things to feel happy, to feel, to find that, to find purpose. You know, like, and that's pretty much one of the wake up calls that the kind of main, you know, allow me to make this transition was back then, you know, when I was still modeling, I had the opportunity to, you know, not just work with the, with some of the biggest names in the industry and you know, work at the highest level, but also had the opportunity to connect with, you know, let's say big characters out there, you know, like big players, what we call celebrities, socialites, whatever, people that have immense amount of wealth. And what I realized there, it's that despite what we're told, because we're always told that you need to find that material reward, satisfaction. You get these nice things and you should be happy and all of that. But what I realized in those moments is that those were some of the most miserable people I've ever met in my life. Because they were doing. You know, they had everything they wanted. They had everything that most people would dream of, but they weren't living a life worth living, in a way. They weren't living a life that would give them a sense of fulfillment and purpose. You know, I keep on hitting those two words because that's what truly changed my life. If you don't have a drive, if you don't have a purpose in your life, you can have all, you know, you can sit, you can sleep in a bed of gold, but you're gonna wake up every morning wondering what the heck are you doing here?

There's two things that you said that I think really point to what's missing when someone has it all, but they feel so empty. And it's the. It's the contentment or the allowing that contentment and the relationships. The loving relationship life.

Yeah.

And if those two things, if not being able to be, just be. And.

You hit that. You hit the target right there. Just be and be. Be content with yourself. And we, you know, it's. You know, you said all. You really hit all the right spots. Even earlier when you were saying it's very much like a spiritual journey, and it's big. And when you talk about spiritual journey, you will recognize the switch in direction. You know, everything we do in a societal. Not pattern. Societal pattern. What did you say? Construct. You know, from the moment we are. We go to school, when we're raised, we always tend to put everything outside of us, you know, everything is about, you know, getting good grades so that you can get a reward, then getting a good career so you can get good money so you can buy things that eventually, you know, the whole pattern is wrong. The whole pattern is wrong. Right at the basis of it. And I'm not saying it's wrong to do these things because of course, it would be naive that money, it doesn't serve us well in life. And having nice things is not good thing. Far from that. But it's the premise of it. It's the base. A base of it that is wrong. Because ultimately, if you're able to switch that direction and do the things that you do because that's who you are and that what drives you, and that's where you draw purpose again where you find purpose within yourself. You do these things even better and you pursue the things that you need to pursue even harder with more desire, with more momentum, with more drive. And you don't need to pursue the financial success because once you achieve, once you fulfill yourself and actualize yourself, those things will chase you automatically.

And it's bonus because you already have everything that you really.

Exactly.

It's just the icing on the cake. And there's. It's not saying that if you love what you do, you're never working a day in your life because it's just you're living your best life already. And that's really what I'm trying to create with the things that I pursue, but also with how I coach others. So in this, to shift gears just a little bit in terms of the. I happen to also have a background in physiology and strength and conditioning and biomechanics and all these other things. Although those are the details really. But you've accomplished something that I think is truly phenomenal. It may sound impressive, but when, if it's a coach or a scientist to really understand that you've won a race, that is the yukon ultra, that's minus 40 degrees Fahrenheit. So in Celsius probably around minus 20ish. And yeah. And then also the Death valley, the Badwater 135, I imagine that's 135 miles.

135 miles at 130 degrees which is about 54 Celsius.

Like it's. So it is mind boggling. Not only the distances, but the distances in those conditions take another level of not only physical training, but it's also the mental toughness, the resilience, the determination. So if you could comment on those two things. Like those extremes are so. They're phenomenal. They're really phenomenal. And I think that's one of your, one of your records. Is one of your records the only person to win a Hottest and coldest.

Hottest and coldest, Yeah.

I mean that's incredible. I really want to acknowledge you for that because it takes something but I want to emphasize too that there's the physical side of things. It really takes something physically and it really takes something within this, this mental, this mind realm, not just brain forcing, but this mind realm. Can you, can you tell us a little bit about that? Because it's, it's a whole nother world.

Absolutely. You know, when I first started this, you know, my journey into ultra running, the search for the next big challenge has always Been, you know, I think most of ultra runners can relate to that. You know, there's always the would, you know, okay, you run 100 miles, okay, what can you do next? What's bigger than that? You know, what's what, what can put me. And it's not again to me it's never been about, you know, bragging rights. It's always been about personal exploration. Exactly. Yeah. Putting myself out there, what I'm to find out what I'm capable of. Because you know, we grew up in a, in a, in a, in a way that we, you know, we were always told what is possible to do, you know, especially like I come from, you know, Italy with a strong Greek influence. Well, I was, I was raised with that. You know the story of running a marathon and then dying and then, you know, for the longest time we always assumed that a marathon was the staple for human endurance beyond which the body simply couldn't go. And you know, when I first dipped my nose in ultra running, I started finding out about these people running 2, 4Amarathons in a row, non stop. And they're perfectly healthy. So I'm like, okay, so here is like redefining the, you know, it's almost opening up the horizons to what's possible. And so, you know, after a few years of experience and races here and there, I came across this, you know, the Yukon, the Yukon Arctic Ultra. And you know, up there in the middle of the Northern Territory in Canada, that fascination for the Jack London's book, you know, the outpost of the, you know, golden exploration era and all of that. And you know, finding out that beyond, you know, beside the dog sled race, there is this foot race. And so I'm like, okay. And so I started doing more research and I was like, okay, this is like this looks like it's gonna push my, you know, my limits way further or at least put me way outside of my comfort zone because again, I never ran that type of, type of environment. And so I signed up right away. And as soon as I signed up I was like, you know what, I don't think anybody has ever done both, especially the same year. So in basically six months time, I ran the Yukon 100 miles in the Yukon Territory in the middle of the winter. As you said, temperatures dropping to 40 below. And fast forward is less than six months. Five months later I told the line of bad water where temperatures reach about 130 degrees. That first year, of course, you know, I had a great opportunity, a great, I would say I was lucky enough to Win the Yukon. And when I towed the line at Bad Water, I was like, you know, I went in with high hopes. But then reality set in. A lot of health issues came around, and I suffered quite a bit. I went through a lot of, like, health issues that, you know, could have been debilitating, but I was so determined to bring it to an end that I literally crawled through Death Valley. I finished a race, so I brought home the big, you know, the big challenge I set up to do, but I wasn't satisfied. I finished 25th position in a time that was way lower, slower than I thought I could have done. And so, you know, it took me a little time to kind of get back on my feet. In 2018, I towed the line again at Bad Water. And in a way or another, you know, everything went pretty well, and I brought home the win that year. So, you know, that year, 2016, I was able to finish both races, and in a span of two years, I was able to win both the coldest and the hottest.

What, you know, I don't want to gloss over to people who don't really understand ultra as much. I know that we've interviewed someone who is a former national team volleyball player who's run the Leadville 100. So he doesn't necessarily have the physique for, as most ultra runners might, but he didn't finish it his first Leadville, and then he. He did the second one, finished it the following year. So. But. But in. In taking a look at this, what are you. What are some of the things that you legitimately come up against from health, from injuries? What would be your top concerns that have come up for you in maybe that one Badwater race or overall? What do you always have to be careful of in your training and your racing?

Right. Well, I can tell you, since we're talking about the two extremes. You know, when I ran a Yukon, I. The last, let's say, two, three, four hours, I felt like I was running underwater because my cornea was frozen. And, you know, I was running through the night. I mean, it's, you know, out there in the winter, it's about 18 hours of darkness and about four, maybe four hours of. Four or five hours of dim light. So, you know, throughout the whole stretch in the dark, it was so cold that I couldn't keep my mask on because it was split with the fact that I was running. I was also kind of sweating a little bit, although I was trying to thermoregulate with the zippers and, you know, taking on and off layers and stuff. But I had to take my mask off because the little layer of sweat was freezing on my face and was burning. So I decided to take it off without realizing that it was way worse because eventually started freezing my cornea. And I couldn't even. Towards the end, I couldn't even kind of see the finish line. And I started running towards the screen. The yells of my father, when actually came from Italy to crew for me, and he was like, he was ecstatic when he saw the light. He started yelling. And I followed the screams and eventually got there, you know, and the running through these temperatures and breathing, and breathing. I burned my trachea, I burned my stomach. So for like two, three months afterwards. It was a very debilitating, you know, situation because I couldn't eat properly. I couldn't drink anything hot or cold. It was, it was very challenging. You know, it was my first experience in those conditions. So I definitely paid a, paid a toll, paid a price for that. And now with, you know, a little more understanding, I could make a few adjustments to suffer a little less. But, you know, that's, that's, that's the journey that I signed up for and I brought home a great deal of understanding of, of how resilient we are. If you set your mind to something, it doesn't matter and nothing matters. You know, there's a great saying, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter.

The mind overcomes all.

The mind can overcome anything. And that's, that's pretty much the beauty of, of these type of challenges. They allow you to tap into a greater, like into your higher self. You know, we always talk about, of course you got to have a fit body to achieve this type of things. You have to develop a strong mind. But in my opinion, the driving force is always much is something deeper or higher. Heart, soul, spirit, whatever want to call it. And if you're, if your soul, if your heart is in it, nothing is a great servant, but a terrible master. So you can only rely on the mind. Opportunity to a certain point. You can use it to achieve whatever you want, but you cannot allow it to make decisions because when they're going to get stuff, it's always going to find an easy way out. So the mind is always on a path of resistance, while the heart in a way, is in a state of flow. So you got to tap into the higher self, into the state of flow to make it through whatever comes. Because, you know, the spiritual, the spiritual, the spiritual journey that I undertook in these years of exploration allow me to understand that the outside doesn't matter. The conditions outside don't matter. If you're inside is stable, is solid, is ground, is whole, you know, you need to be, you need to be fully connected within yourself. And everything that goes on outside is just, it's just, you know, it's just noise. And the same thing happens with the heat, you know, with the same. In 2016, when I crawled through that valley, I started, you know, I suffer severe dehydration. I started, you know, it's not pre to say, but I started peeing blood, my kidneys were shutting down. I was passing out after, you know, every mile or two. But I was so, I was so attached to, I was so driven on a deeper level that it didn't matter. You know, it didn't matter how I placed it didn't matter. The time, it didn't, you know, you, you, you strip down of everything. And that's why I call these journeys, these races, spiritual journeys, because they truly allow you to tap into that in a different realm, a different experience of life.

And more with what you're describing, more vulnerable on all levels. It sounds like, just so vulnerable. You also mentioned this state of flow. Do you find now that is it, is it, do you notice the state of flow in showing up in other areas of life now that you've practiced it so much in, in your sport or your craft?

Absolutely, absolutely. It's, it's something that, you know, those are less, You know, I also, I've been studying yoga and meditation and mindfulness in India, studying in ashram in Rishikesh and, and that was just about 20, 2018. So it was relatively recently and it was outstanding to me to see the similarities. You know, I started with, with yogis that, you know, have been studying and practicing this, this 5, 6, 7,000 years old craft up there in the Himalayas. And the fact that, you know, yoga means union, the union of the body, the mind and the soul. So there is a deeper connection. And I was truly mesmerized and amazed to see the similarities of how, of what I discover through my personal journey in Ultra running to the teachings that these Vedic people have been developed over thousands of years through asana, through yoga. So, you know, when we talk about yoga in our Western world, we think about the poses. Now those are just asanas. That's just like one little part of it. Yoga is a huge giant practice that brings you from, you know, pranayama, shad, karma practices and, you know, a bunch of things. Now we're not going to get into that because it's not really the topic, but it's the understanding that through physical, breaking through the physical barriers, you can tap into the mind, but then you have to break the mind to the mind. You know, we always stress in the Western world, we always stress the power of the mind. And that's right up until a certain point. But if you truly want to tap into something even greater, you have to break the mind down to tap into the higher self, to tap into the heart, mind, you know, spirit, soul, whatever, when I call it. Because only when you achieve that, you connect to a. I keep on saying something higher. It's a higher energy, it's a higher self. And once you achieve that you're in a state, you find instinct like that you were. We are infinite in many ways. And that's what I strive to do when I get into this type of event of races. You detach, you break the physical barriers, but then you have to detach from the mind as well. Because as I said before, the mind is always on a path of resistance. So you can be, you know, mind strong and you can push and push and pull, but it's always going to be a push. Once you break the mind and you, you, you tap into that higher ground, you're no longer in a path of resistance, you're in a path of flow. And once you into that, you can go on forever. Nothing can stop you because you unbothered, you aren't unattached. So you no longer feel, you know, pain is always going to be there because it's going to be an necessary part of your journey. But great Buddhist saying that it's fit into this pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. So once you break the mind, there's no more suffering. You just accept pain for what it is and you're unbothered, you are unattached, you are unbounded. And that's when you truly feel free and set yourself for, you know, to achieve whatever you set out to do.

That's, that's incredible. I think of there's a definition of suffering that I love which is that suffering is your pain about your pain.

That's exactly right. It's something that a mind creates. You know, you suffer, you. It's your interpretation of pain.

Yeah, that's it.

That's is it.

And then at the same time, what you've described in going through the physical into the mind and then beyond the barrier of the mind and into a higher space, or transcending that experiencing Something like that really emphasizes how insignificant our physical experience of the world is. Our physical experience of the world is just, you know, it's just a thing. And that's not really what.

It's a very tiny. It's a speck. It's a little speck.

You think that's everything, but the reality is it's next to nothing.

And, and that's, you know, that's what I think the social construct is, is taking, you know, is lowering our understanding of what we can do, what we're capable of, because it keeps everything to the physical ground, to the physical realm. So not being able, not allowing ourselves to tap into these higher grounds, in many ways, it's minimizing our experience. It's not allowing us to experience life and our potential to the utmost.

I love this experience of utilizing what's available to us, physically utilizing what's available to us within our natural environment, connecting with our natural environment to really understand and maybe never even fully understanding, but at least have a sniff at a bigger perspective or a bigger experience right now. What do you. Is there anything that you're. That's either holding you back or that you're afraid of or you're struggling with right now? What's. What's happening in your world right now with all that you've experienced and learned so far?

Well, you know, I think last year and this year, because we're still in the rough seas in many ways, I think, allowed us to understand that we're not in control. And so that's. That's already kind of a step forward in many ways to kind of, you know, reassess our situations as a whole, as a humanity. And, and so to me, I gotta tell you, you know, it's been a. It's been a journey of highs and lows, just like ultra running, just like, Just like life, you know, you are. You know, we've been going through so many moments of despair and then moments where we felt like we're going to come up. So, you know, it's. It's definitely been a rough patch for me at the beginning, as I said before, you know, I. I'm a. I'm a type of person that likes to. To kind of plan things ahead. I like to live in the moment, but I like to think to plan ahead because I. At least I have a direction. And so I came to a point where I'm like, okay, these things, you know, races are getting canceled. I had expedition planned. I had all these things that I always plan about a year in advance at least, if not more so. It made me face reality and the fact that I am not in control of any of that. So bringing the focus within and not stressing too much about the outside world allow me to find balance again. And I'm not saying that I have all the answers and I'm like, everything is good. But I strive to work on myself and develop myself in a way that whatever comes, I'm okay with it. Because again, as I said before, if your inner self is. I often relate to a body of water. You know, we are like, let's say a lake. Just like you're lake in there. You know, you can. You can throw all the rocks in there that you want to create these waves, and they disrupt your peace. But if your deeper self is quiet and calm, you can absorb those ripples and, you know, and not necessarily feel depressed or distress or, you know, or discontent. Because a lot of times, you know, we, you know, we always put our expectations towards the outside world. And when that's out of our control, then we, you know, we feel we are lost. So this is. This is the one teaching, the one lessons that I carry with me, you know, not stressing too much about the outside influences and working on myself every single day. It's never, you know, it's never mastered. It's a craft that needs to be refreshed and re. You know, re kind of reestablished every single day, every single week, every single season, every single year. It's a constant work. It's a constant labor. But, you know, it's a labor of love, in my. In my opinion, because once you come from, you know, once you are content within, once you are, you know, when you come from a point of love and gratitude for where you are, what do you have in your life, the people that are around you. Then you open up to a kind of version of yourself. And in many ways, you know, you can also influence those around you for the best. And that's where I'm at right now.

That's beautiful. And it's also the realization that no matter how far anyone has grown or even more of a spiritual practice or enlightenment or experiences in life, there's still going to be something that comes up at some point that's just. That's just part of it. That's just part of, you know, and we can't even never really see that it wasn't supposed to happen because it did.

So, you know, I think in our. In our. In our experiences, we always try to. We focus on what we don't want. So we push away the things that, you know, we don't, we don't like that. Things that are put us in discomfort. The things that, but just simply accepting what it is for what it is, you know, you're just opening up to a much more calm, grounded, and I would say content self. Because you know, I mean, let's face it, this is life. And you know, we have one, one opportunity to make it memorable and make it, make it exciting for ourselves. So focusing on the negatives just limits ourselves and kind of freezes ourselves on our steps and doesn't allow us to focus on the positive and what is actually, you know, changing our life for the best. So, you know, it's always, it's always in a way, that's why I say it's a constant work. You know, every single day. You need to kind of reassess these things and to kind of refresh in the mind and the spirit to what it is that feeds you, that feeds your soul. Because ultimately that's the only true rich riches, you know, of our, of our existence. It's us, it's who we are and in my opinion, how we can contribute. And that's where I find fulfillment. That's what I find the purpose in what I do. It's contributing in a way that it's something greater than myself. You know, it's not about the financial return or you know, the, you know, getting praise for achieving whatever we achieve, but it's, it's about, you know, understanding how we can give more to others and pave the road for something more, something greater for, for ourselves as a whole, as a species. You know, I realized in my, you know, in my personal journey, my personal story, you know, I realized how powerful inspiration is because not only changed my life, you know, a decade ago, but it truly saved it. And so now being in this position where I can hopefully inspire others to, you know, take on a new challenge, push beyond themselves, believe that they can do it no matter the circumstances or whatever they are in this moment in their lives is the most rewarding feeling that I can get. And that's what fires me up every day to pursue myself. So there is, it's almost like a, you know, it's a, it's a self propelling energy powering, you know, itself up. And you know, I feel myself be, I feel beyond privilege and honor to be in this position now.

It's, it's really, it's very powerful. And you're to trying truly, you're truly demonstrating what is possible? And on more of a superficial note, just for the fun curiosity of our listeners, what would you say would be a favorite meal for heading into training or post workout? Do you have a favorite meal? And so favorite meal, favorite music, favorite training? Those are some fun questions we like to ask.

All right, well, I like, I am very much plant based, but before a race, I love sushi. That's my go to the night before race. I go sushi. Especially like salmon. He has good fats. You know, you get some good carbs from rice and you know, a very tiny amount of veggies in there. So, you know, try not to put fibers, too much fibers in the body. But that's like, you know, I also satisfied my taste buds, so I would go with sushi. Favorite music. You know, that's, that's a very tough question because if I'm, if I, if I share my playlist with you, you'll be, you'll be very surprised. I have anything and everything. I have everything from Pavarotti to opera to Lil Wayne to, to hard rock to 80s rock, to hip hop, to, you know, to tank, techno dance, everything. I love it easiest. I mean, I even had Katy Perry in there. So that does you something.

Love it.

And favorite training. You know, when it comes to training, I realize how important it is to find joy in training. You know, I'm a type of person that doesn't necessarily stick too much to. I have a routine that I plan ahead of time because I know, you know, now that I understand periodization, now that I understand this thing. But I do not stress too much about pace. I don't stress about, you know, I, I might do some speed work here and there, but most of, most often it's not even by the watch, it's by songs.

Yeah, yeah.

No, you know, like I do things that, and you know, and it's, I'm not saying that, you know, that necessarily works for everybody, but it works for me. I don't like to go on a track and be, you know, in a way, I don't like the word, but it's how it is enslaved to the, to the watch. Yeah, I just. Because I realized that that's, that's not sustainable in the long run, at least for me. Again, you know, I, every time I put too much stress, too much effort, it. I turn to burnout. So what I realize right nowadays, or at least in the past few years, is when I go out, I know I need to do something specific. I need, you know, I knew, I know What I know what I have to do, but I try to turn in a way that I can have fun with there. And then, you know, if you ask me what my favorite train run, my favorite training is, is probably the long runs on the weekend and most often are out on the trails out in the big mountains. You know, I get up there, I don't care about the pace I get up. You know, my goal is to. To experience what I'm doing and spend time on my feet. And if one day I feel great and I'm dropping fast miles, perfect. The next week I'm not feeling it and I'm just walking or hiking it and, you know, hiking it up and running it down or whatever it is, I take that home as well as. As, you know, productive day. So my. My recommendation to any and all runners is find joy in what you're doing. Yeah. At any level.

I love that because it. In what you've just given our listeners an example of is action that's aligning with the entire message that you've just, that you've just described. And, you know, if you had just said, oh, you know, I have to do this and I have to do that, then, you know, it doesn't align with all of the things that you've said in terms of how you're connected with your body, your mind, your environment, your. Your sense of now, all of those things. So to wrap this up, one last real question here. That is, if you think back to your younger self or you think of young people now going through Covid, inspiration is something that's so important to you. What would be a message or some words of wisdom that you'd like to give to maybe your younger self or other people, young people now who might use a little motivation or inspiration. Is there a message that you have?

Well, there could be, like, a lot of messages, especially for all the things that we are, you know, that we've been talking about. But, you know, there are. I would start, you know, I always found the as for as used as has been and for whatever cheesy could sound. But I really resonated with that phrase by Steve Job, Steve Jobs, you know, stay hungry, stay foolish. And the message that I can get out there, you know, kind of spinning off of that is the. That message always reminded me how important it is to, in a way, never feel arrived, never feel like, you know, that you. That you are there because you never will. You know, when we talk about physical preparation, you're never gonna achieve that 100% perfect fitness and you're never gonna be able to sustain it. If you're talking about on a mental level, you're gonna achieve mental fortitude. But eventually they're gonna come times they're gonna. That's gonna crumble. If you talk on a spiritual level, you hear people nowadays saying they're woke. And I'm like, well, just because you say you're woke shows that you are completely asleep. Because you know you can be on a path to awakening. But not even the most accomplished or actually spiritually sound guru is never woke. So it's about understanding that you can always develop yourself more. You can always go further. And so this also means that you can continue, especially in a moment of trial like these ones that you're saying through Covid. And the uncertainties that we're facing in our societies nowadays is about continuing to try and retry, even when everything around us tells us that it's not possible. So I'm probably the greatest message that I would like to share is about encouraging everyone that is listening to venture into the unknown and to embrace it. Because we're always going to come to a point where we cannot control what's going on. You know, it's always good to stay in our pond, in our. In our castle, let's say in the safety of our castle, and control the things that we know we can control. But if one thing that I learned is that there's growth only happens when you start venturing outside, venturing into the unknown, start threading in uncharted water, because that's when you discover your strength, your resilience and your ability to make it through the tough moments. You know, it's all about, I think, life, it's all about risk and failure, because you can only learn from those and develop yourself to a higher. To a higher understanding of what you're capable of. So, you know, we are, I think from the moment we grow up, we all have, as we said before, we have great desires, we have great hopes. And then life puts us in a box and it makes us kind of requestion our choices and the things that we wanted to do. And that step alone makes us feel noteworthy, makes our faith kind of fade. And again, we all have ambitions. And too often we're afraid to take risks. We're afraid not to be good enough, not to be strong enough, not to be smart enough. We, in a way, we feel trapped by all these uncertainties, by these, you know, this situation that makes us feel unworthy and, you know, the feel of failure and all of These things. So in every step that you're taking outside of your comfort zone, we discover our strength, our perseverance and our abilities to grow and achieve those dreams. So in whatever direction we're going to go again, my direction has been towards athletic endeavor and exploration, ultra running, you know, endurance sports. But whatever it is you're calling, whether it is, you know, business, careers, whichever things you want to do in life, just don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to fail because that's just a, you know, that's just an inevitable part of your journey to success and just enjoy the ride. That's as simple as that.

That's very powerful, very beautiful. Where can people find your book? You've got a book that's out and what platforms do you hang out on so people can look for you?

Yes, I'm pretty much, you know, you can find me on pretty much all social media platforms, but I'm very much more active on Instagram and you can find me at Mickey M I C K E Y last name Graglia, G R A G L I A or on my website, michelegraglia.com beautiful.

And then your book.

Yes, the book launched the end of June and it's been an incredible journey already in this past couple of months. It's called Ultra Top model to Top Ultra runner, which pretty much goes through this life changing transition of lifestyle even. And yeah, you know, it's available, you can find it on my website or just Amazon. You can find all the, you know, paper bags, hardcovers, ebook and the audiobook is about to be released probably by the end of the summer.

But hopefully people will get it from your website because that'll be the best place to get it.

Yes, absolutely.

Okay. Well, I am so grateful to have this experience with you. This has been very powerful. Thank you for coming on and sharing your experiences and wisdom with our audience and I can't wait to hear more about your endeavors.

It's been a great pleasure. Thank you so much.

If you enjoy the listening to the Empowered Team podcast, you'll love being on the team. The Empowered Team runs year round. It is our group coaching and accountability program where we take mindset and physical performance concepts and break them down to usable action steps that optimize results. To join, email us@infompowerconditioning.com with subject line team. That's info powerconditioning.com we can't wait for you to be on the team.