121. Negotiate Like a Woman with Kathryn Valentine

And what they found is that by 2nd grade, little girls were asking for 40% less than little boys were. And so the researchers would then take the little girls who asked for less aside and say, hey, why did you ask for that? It's the phrase, hey, why did you ask for that? And the vast majority of the little girls said something along the lines of, I thought it was worth more, but I didn't want to upset anybody. And so these societal concepts of gender and how they intersect with negotiation is so in the water that we drink.

Hello, financial feminists! Welcome back to the show. I am so excited to see you. If this is your first time, welcome. My name is Tori.

I am a money expert.

I am a New York Times bestselling author. This is the number one money podcast for women in the world, which is so fucking cool to say. And we talk about how to save money, how to get out of debt, how to negotiate your salary, how to invest, how to start a business. All through the lens of feminism and intersectionality and focused on fighting the patriarchy by getting rich. Okay. If you're an oldie but a goodie, welcome back. I'm so excited for today's episode as I always am. Before we get into it, please feel free to rate the show. Give us a 5-star review. And if you don't want to give us a 5-star review because you don't like the show, don't, don't listen. Don't consume things you don't like. That's just a general piece of advice for you. And feel free to share the show with a friend or a loved one. That really helps us. And if you have questions, comments, concerns, if you have follow-up questions about anything in today's episode or previous episodes, if you have financial questions that I can solve in an upcoming episode, please feel free to leave us a voicemail.

The link to do so is down below in the description.

We are getting into hiring surges as well as annual review time. You've got to love annual review at your job. So that means one way or another, we are having conversations around compensation at work. And today's episode is so impactful about how to negotiate, scripts for negotiation, how to approach negotiation differently as a woman, and how to define and ensure success in a negotiation. As a child of a single working mother, Kathryn Valentine grew up acutely aware of the many ways in which the working world wasn't working for women. After starting her career in management consulting, Kathryn spent her time in business school researching how to negotiate specifically as a woman. That work is the foundation of her research-based approach to women's leadership development. Kathryn is the CEO of Worthmore Strategies, where she helps companies advance and retain female talent. A top-rated speaker, her clients include multinational organizations such as JPMorgan, KPMG, and TIAA. Her work has been featured in the Harvard Business Review, the Wall Street Journal, Forbes, and Fast Company. Kathryn and I talk about all the reasons you should negotiate and why, though well-intentioned, the advice to negotiate like a man might be way more harmful than helpful.

It's way more harmful.

than helpful.

Spoiler alert.

We break down the strategies you can use to advocate for yourself in the workplace and talk through all of the things you can negotiate outside of just your salary. This conversation was so impactful and will be incredibly useful for anybody listening at any time in their career. We imagine this episode will have a long shelf life of folks who are coming back to prepare for their annual reviews, coming back to prepare for negotiation. So If you want to negotiate your work, your compensation, a new salary, a raise at your current job, or negotiate literally anything else in your life, then prep for this episode. We're excited to have you. Let's go ahead and get into it.

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It's always really funny when you do end up reflecting on like, what do I actually like spending my money on versus what am I spending my money on?

Well, also, I think the other thing is it changes, right? So like as a little couple, we had it all set up, but now that we have kids, you got to go back and redo the whole thing again, I think.

Yeah, well, any life milestone or any— like, I remember when my income changed, when I was making, you know, my 9-to-5 salary versus a couple years into self-employed entrepreneurship, like, I was making very different money. And so then it was like, oh, I guess I value everything. But then, you know, you know, you don't. Like, you realize, okay, okay, what am I actually gonna spend my money on? And then what am I going to be more strategic about saving it instead?

Well, there's also when you Spend out that, you know, splurge, even if it's not as large of a percentage of your income anymore, when you space it out, it just feels more like that nice bottle of wine once a quarter feels very different.

Right. Well, I have this whole thing. This is an episode for another time, but like this treat yourself mentality that we all get into. Like, I love a treat. Like, don't get me wrong. And I'm not saying people shouldn't treat, but eventually if you're just Buying the treat all the time—that's not a treat; that's a lifestyle. So it's like if you want your treats to keep feeling like treats, you have to make them treats—not this thing that you do all of the time because it's not going to feel as good because it's just it's just going to be normal. Me and chocolate chip cookies right there. Yo, me too. Oh, I can eat them all day long. Oh yeah, I I like go into my fridge right after I eat food, even if like this is a thing I'm working on. Sometimes even if I'm not hungry, I'm just like I want chocolate, and so then I. And I just go and I have my little chocolate and I'm like, did she really— did she really want that? No.

But like, it's just a habit at this point.

It's a habit. Or it just was like that, that immediate hit of dopamine, but actually made me feel like shit because I'm already full. Anyway, that's a problem for another time. That's a problem for another time.

I did have a chocolate chip cookie right before I got on with you. I was like, well, this is important work.

Treat, treat, treat. That's great. We love that.

Um, it was warm. I mean—

Oh, did you microwave it a little bit? It was a little gooey.

Yes, because that's how into it I am, is that at 11:30 on a Friday, I will microwave a chocolate chip cookie.

Honestly, icon behavior. That is fantastic. I— there is the, uh, shameless plug, not sponsored, but there is a grocery store here in Seattle called Metropolitan Market, Met Market, and they have literally— they have trade— do you know about this? You know about this?

Well, it's been a few years since I've been to Seattle, but I stayed with a friend who is in Seattle and was like, you gotta come.

It is trademarked as capital T, the capital C cookie, like the cookie. And they put it on a warmer all of the time. So they bake them and then they come out and then they put them in their little like sleeve package and then they just sit on the warmer. This is a chocolate chip Walnut cookie that's about the size of my face, and that just ooey gooey— when you spread it apart, it's just— the chocolate pull is fantastic. It is so good. It is so good.

So Tori, I knew about the store. I did not know about the cookie, and I'm a little disappointed that I went to the store and did not know or find the cookie.

You know, we had a conversation on a business podcast in a professional environment, and that means that you can expense a trip out to Seattle for research to, uh, purchase the cookie.

Probably less true given that I don't sell cookies, but yeah, I'm with you on that one.

You know, find an accountant who will make it work. Find an accountant who would be okay with that.

Well, actually, if I came out to Seattle, went to the place we talked about, had coffee with you, now it's totally a business expense.

There you go. Right? Easy, easy. We'll get, we'll get the cookie and the coffee. I don't know if they have the coffee, but we'll figure that out. Kathryn, we're so excited to have you. This is such a fun intro to the show.

I'm so excited to be here.

We always ask our money experts and our business folks who come on the show what their first money memory was. What is the first time you remember having an awareness of money?

I love this question. I was raised by a single mom who is just like, this woman is so amazing. She put herself through school with a toddler. She's next level. But I remember the first memory I have of money, I was maybe 9 or 10. And she called me into, in quotations, her office, which was a desk next to her bed. And she pulled out this yellow legal pad where she had drawn all these lines and columns on it. And she said, hey, kiddo, look what we did this month. And she pointed at it, and she had saved $50 for my college fund. And she was like, isn't that great? And every month she would call me in. And like, some months were big numbers, some months were real small numbers, and some months, you know, it just didn't happen. But I think from a young age, from her, I learned that you set a goal and you do your best, right? Some, sometimes are better than others. And I feel like when I hear you talk about your family, I also got really lucky. Like, my mom was smart with money and talked about it. And so I luckily, I think, grew up with some pretty good habits around it.

Yeah, it was a— it was definitely a privilege that I had from my family that they were diligent about saving money, but also passed that information down to me. I took it for granted for a really long time because I didn't know anything was different. In our research, we learned that part of why you started researching negotiation, talking about negotiation, was that you bombed an interview.

Oh, yeah.

Can you talk to us about what happened? And why that drove you to work with like gender-based negotiation. Why was that the— why was that the tipping point for you?

Oh, it's always good to talk about your failures right out of the gate. So I went to business school and was doing my MBA intern. And for anyone that isn't as familiar, your MBA internship is so important because you have just invested 2 years out of the workforce and like a quarter of $1 million to go get your MBA. And it really hinges on whether or not that job coming out justifies all of that investment that you made. So your MBA internship is, it's basically a 3-month job interview, and people get really wound up about it. So I'm doing my MBA internship, and I finished the project that they assigned me about 4 weeks into the internship. And so I decided that I was gonna negotiate to be placed on another team so that I could meet more people, that that would give me kind of a leg up in actually getting a job offer. And so I spent, I made this decision on a Friday, I spent all weekend, this was also when like Barnes Noble were on every corner. So I spent all weekend at the Barnes Noble like buying all the negotiation books, underlining, highlighting, like writing out what I was going to say, and then getting on the phone with my mom and like practicing it, right? I had it all scripted out. I was very turbo. I probably put, I don't know, 15 hours into prepping for this, right? So Monday morning I go in, and at 10:00 AM I have a meeting where I try to negotiate to be placed on another team. By 10:06, it was very clear that I had ticked off the intern coordinator, and by 10:10, I was being told that I was not a Culture fit, and that I would not be getting a job out of this. And so once it's clear that you're not getting a job out of this, you're like, well, shit, I gotta go find a job. So I quit the internship because, again, needed to get a job. And per company protocol, if anyone quits, they are then escorted out of the building by security. So basically, in less time than it takes to like order a latte, I totally derailed my career by trying to negotiate in the way that the books told me to, but that were not actually appropriate for me. So, I was in a really fortunate position where I had a year left of business school. So, I went back to business school, and I spent that entire next year studying how to negotiate specifically as a woman, which no one had talked to me about. But I needed to understand what had happened. And at that point in time, this was 2013, Research was just starting to come out on this. So, Linda Babcock, who I heard on your show, but also Hannah Riley Bowles, Emily Amanatullah, like all of these researchers at Harvard and Georgetown and Carnegie Mellon are starting to pump this out all at the same time. And what the research showed basically was, one, negotiation is gendered. What I say and what my brother says, it lands differently and plays differently. I don't know why that surprised me, but it did. 2, most advice out there is actually for men, but it's not caveated that way. Like, it doesn't come with the warning that this is more likely to derail your career if you're a woman. And the 3rd thing I learned is that there was a research-based solution, which has gotten even crisper over time. We now have— I mean, I have an Excel of 250 studies that back up what we're talking about. And somehow, it's just not getting to the women who need it. So that's the gap that I'm trying to fill is bringing this amazing research to people who can use it in their jobs tomorrow or for their annual review or to get that house they've wanted or the car, whatever it may be.

So my next question is, what are the differences? What were you taught or what were the things that we were reading about versus what should we be doing instead?

So that's a really big question. What it hinges on is that The world interprets us differently because in any conversation, the people that we're working with bring in their own biases, right? And so, what they're going to rely on, whether it's whatever gender you're negotiating with, what they're going to rely on is societal concepts of gender. And societal concepts of gender say that, as a woman, I should be others-focused. And when I'm not, it triggers a response that is the baseline of backlash. And what we see with backlash now is not sort of the Mad Men-esque stuff, right? It's much more nebulous. I worked with a woman who used to do analyses and then present to her executive team. And after she had a negotiation that, you know, didn't go very well, her boss started coming by her desk and saying, hey, you don't need to present anymore, like, I got this. So she still has to do the work, but she no longer gets the credit for it, right? Those are the types of things that we're seeing in terms of the backlash that, that comes out of this. Or You may just be told you're not a culture fit anymore.

Which, cool. Thanks, guys. Super helpful.

So I guess that's a no to the promotion?

Right. This may seem like a straightforward question, but why negotiate?

Tori, I'm so glad you asked. So there's a number of reasons to negotiate. Anything from it positions you to be more successful, to it can lower your stress, to it actually makes it more likely that companies will be able to retain female talent if females know how to negotiate, right? But for the purposes of this and your audience, I think the financial ones are probably the ones that make the most sense to go into. So Linda Babcock did this research that shows that not negotiating is equivalent to leaving $1 million on the table over your career. Margaret Neal at Stanford then took that and was like, that, you know, that number is very helpful. Obviously, it's quite sensitive to how old you are when you start and what you make. So let me try and do it a different way. So Margaret Neal did a round on it that shows that not negotiating is equivalent to having to work an additional 8 years to retire with the same wealth. Now, what we built, which Tori, I think you're going to get a kick out of, is we built this thing called a negotiation calculator. And if you're open to it, I would love to ask you a couple questions and just kind of run through what it looks like.

Sure, that sounds great.

So, a couple questions I'm going to ask you is current age. And this doesn't have to be for you, Tori. It can be for, you know, a hypothetical listener.

But let's just say, how old do you want this We have a customer persona in mind for her first $100K, and her name is Jennifer. So she's 27.

I love it already. Okay, and how much does Jennifer make currently?

$70,000 a year.

Great. And when she's going into her negotiation, what kind of expected raise— and this is like an— this isn't just your annual raise of 3%, but like she's really gonna negotiate a raise, or she's switching jobs, right?

Sure.

What kind of raise would this negotiation be about?

I was going to say 10%, but I know for me, when I went in to negotiate, I was always aiming for 20%. So let's, let's go big or go home. Let's say 20%.

Oh, okay. Let's do 20%. So then that negotiation, if she can negotiate a 20% raise at age 27 on a base of $70,000, that one negotiation is worth $1 million before she retires at 65. Because the additional money she gets, she gets every year. And then the 3% raises are going to come on top of that. Right? Right. So let's go back to your other example where she's doing— I'm going to put in quotations— just 10%. Right. That's worth $505,000, half a million dollars for her to retire.

Is that because of how she's also now gets a raise at this job? Presumably the next job she's getting paid more. Is that the idea? Is that like The million dollars she's gaining helps her career trajectory because now she's not looking for that 20% bumps from somewhere else.

I would argue that's a bonus. The way that this model is built, it's just one negotiation that you carry over. It's not even thinking like, oh, now you've built this skill, you're going to negotiate again. Or, oh, now you've negotiated yourself into a job with more resources where you can show them what you can really do. You'll be able to— Doesn't even factor in any of that. It's one negotiation and then you kind of stay there for the rest of your career with 3% bumps.

Wow. Isn't that amazing? So imagine then if you were also, yeah, negotiating at every step of the way, or at least like, because sometimes, you know, you negotiate and it doesn't pan out like you want. Like maybe, yeah, you go in and asking for 20% and you get 10 or you get 5. You're still— what can you do? 5%? I imagine then it's cut in half, like a $250,000.

$252,000. Probably $252,000. A quarter of a million dollars.

Yeah.

Because you had this conversation. Now, Tori, another thing that we should talk about is having this conversation. So women are actually negotiating at rates equal to, or even potentially slightly higher than men at this point in time, but we're only successful half as often.

We just saw that research come out.

Yes.

Right.

And so what I don't wanna do is give your listeners the impression that we're saying you have to negotiate, because what we see from research is that when women are forced to negotiate, they actually get worse outcomes and are more susceptible to backlash. There's no forcing here. But if this is something that you're interested in, and we're going to show you how to do it throughout the course of this podcast, we're going to talk about the strategies. There is a very real financial incentive to put a little bit of extra time into it.

That's incredible. So, before we talk about how we do it, I want to debunk one of the fears that I hear from women all of the time, and that I tried to debunk in, what is that, chapter 6 of my book, where we talk about negotiation, which is, I'm scared of losing my job. I'm scared of repercussions if I negotiate. It'll happen the same thing that happened to Kathryn is they'll hate me. And yeah, they'll cut, they'll cut my opportunities, or they'll revoke the job offer, or they'll fire me. Talk to me about that fear of repercussion and what strategies have we developed to help with this?

Great question.

So from my point of view, I think the first thing is to validate that fear in a global sense, right? So every now and then you'll come across— I'm going to put in quotations— negotiation experts who are like, it's just in your head. It's not just in your head. And if you talk to anybody who tells you that, just, you know, talk to them about chocolate chip cookies or anything else, but like, don't talk to them about negotiation. Globally, we know that women are susceptible to backlash at higher rates than men, and they are susceptible to backlash in this environment. What I'm concerned is happening is we're now assuming that backlash is going to occur in every conversation, and that is not supported by the research, right? There are ways to have this conversation that can virtually eliminate— that's a phrase from the research— the risk of backlash while increasing your success rates. So we really rely on the research here on how to approach these conversations, and I'm very serious about that because there's a lot of people who will sort of toss out anecdotes. Your listeners' careers are way too important to be following like, oh, well, this time what happened to me, right? No, we're going to give you real research on what actually is going to make you more successful and reduce that risk that you're talking about.

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So let's go ahead and get into it. How do I approach a negotiation as someone who is not a cisgendered straight white dude? And what sort of things do I need to be keeping in mind as I progress in that negotiation? Like, what are the common pitfalls? How do I continue to focus on getting more money while also kind of playing the game like I need to play it?

Okay, Tori, this is a really meaty question. I'm excited to get into it. It's kind of a lengthy answer because I want to make sure your listeners have what they need, so feel free to jump in at any point in time. So, we think about it in sort of 3 steps, right? Step 1, we call the 3 principles of negotiation as a woman. Step 1 is to think holistically. So, it's not just base salary, but it's taking a step back and thinking, you know, what would make you happier at work? What would allow you to deliver more impact? What would reduce your stress? I've worked with a woman who negotiated a better chair. I've worked with people who have negotiated varying degrees of time off or performance bonuses. Or I worked with one woman who was asked to take a role she wasn't really sure about, but the company said they needed her to. So she negotiated a backup option like, hey, if this doesn't work in a year, then I want you to create this role for me, right? And so we actually have a list of 75 things that we've seen women successfully negotiate, but what you can negotiate is very broad. So that's advice number one, is to think holistically. So the second principle is to ask relationally. This is based on research by Babcock and Hannah Riley Bowles that shows that when women are negotiating, if they can demonstrate that what they're asking for is both legitimate and beneficial, Then you can vastly reduce the risk of backlash. The problem that I saw in my coaching work, though, is that women are honestly just so busy that getting ready for a negotiation is already extra work on top of all of the work. And so, trying to think about how to do that is really hard. It's like a step too nebulous. So, we created what we call the RAE. It's the Worthmore Relational Ask Equation. It's just a formula you can use. And the formula is past performance plus future vision plus the ask, and then stop talking. We had to add that one because in an attempt to make your negotiation partner feel comfortable, women would actually start negotiating against themselves. So the way that looks is, let's say that I wanted to negotiate a raise, right? I would go in and say, hey, as you know, in the past year I've been able to X, and you say what your past performance is, right? I've been able to increase sales by 10%, or Increase efficiency or whatever it is that you were hired to do. I believe we can double that this year. Again, whatever the future goal is that everyone's behind, everyone wants that thing to happen. In order to achieve that, I wanted to talk to you about— and you can lay out your ask there, right? I wanted to talk to you about working the hours where I'm most effective. I wanted to talk to you about making sure that I'm being paid according to my contributions, which I think is in this range, right? I wanted to make— I want to talk to you about adding a couple of people to the team so that I can focus on the highest-value work, right? Phrasing what it is that you need within the context of where that's going to get you as a team. And then the third thing that we talk about, which, Tori, I'm not going to spend very much time because this is totally what I've heard you tell your audience, but the third step is to discuss collaboratively, right? It's not me versus you, it's us versus the problem. And the problem is anything that prevents you from doing your best work at your lowest stress. That's a problem for you. That's a problem for your employer. That's the problem we want to solve together, right? And Tori, I've heard you say it's a collaboration. It's not a conflict. Same idea.

That's amazing. All of that is so important, especially one of the, again, the narratives I've talked about on the podcast and in the book is that we just are expected as women to be grateful. And so, When a negotiation starts happening, again, if we're, if we're working in the gender binary, first of all, and 2, if we're working with typical gender roles, what's happening is that even if our boss is a woman, they're looking at us and being like, why are you— why aren't you just grateful that you have a job and that you're, you are doing the work that you're doing? And so I, I appreciate that it's focused on, and it should be focused on, yes, ultimately I'm negotiating my salary for me, but you have to frame it in terms of like. Here's what I can do for you if I have this more freedom in how I work. Here's how the business goals can start to be impacted and start changing.

Absolutely. The other thing I've toyed around with in my mind a little bit is that right now women have an extra incentive to negotiate this way because it lowers the cost to negotiation. But as companies and our culture, frankly, moves from more hierarchical to more collaborative, I'm guessing that in the future, this is the way that men will need to be incentivized to negotiate as well. I mean, we're even seeing now that men— so genders are at a higher risk of backlash in non-gender-conforming negotiations. So for men, they're at a higher risk of backlash when negotiating flexibility, whereas women are at a higher risk of backlash when negotiating all the traditional things, right? Promotion, money, extra resources. But I wonder if over time, we actually come to a place where not only women are incentivized to use this, But all genders, this, this might become sort of the way we negotiate into the future.

That's really, really interesting. And especially, I mean, we know from what the fatherhood benefit, motherhood penalty, this element of, you know, if somebody listening doesn't know the research, basically when a man has a child, he actually, you can literally see on the graph that his earnings go up because it's like, oh, he's a family man taking care of his family. And for women, of course, It either stagnates or starts going down because it's like, oh, this child is going to affect her work performance because she's not going to be fully present. So it is interesting that the very thing that probably a lot of women want then when they have children is flexibility. That is actually, it sounds like, more easy to negotiate for women versus men. Interesting.

It is. Well, it has, it puts you at a lower risk of backlash. Now, the concern, which I have not seen backed in the research, of course, is what it does to your long-term career trajectory. But in the short-term negotiation around flexibility, women are not at as high of a risk of backlash as men actually are in that conversation.

Interesting. So, we were talking before, and I think it's important to highlight, I've said this before on the show, I say this in my book, but your negotiation doesn't have to just be salary, and I think often shouldn't be. And it's especially easier to negotiate if You're at a company where they've already told you, I can't give you a raise right now. That's not on the table. You said 75 things that we can negotiate. I'm thinking, I know PTO is one, potentially working from home some days, your 401 match. You know, there's a lot of things that you can negotiate outside of, you know, a typical salary, a bonus, a relocation bonus. So tell me how we can like holistically look at our whole salary package or our whole benefits package in a way that isn't just the number we're seeing on the check.

God, what a good question. Okay, so I would answer this in 2 parts. One is, if you want to look at it holistically, I would encourage you to ask yourself those 3 questions, right? What could help make you more successful? What do you need to deliver more impact? And what could lower your stress? And then actually download our list of 75 things, look at it, see if it gives you any ideas. The second kind of path we can take on that question that I'd love to dive into is how to negotiate, or really why to negotiate, non-salary compensation things. So right now we know the gender wage gap is about 20%, right? What we know from some research by the Wall Street Journal actually is that that gender wage gap is dwarfed by the gender gap in stock options, which is 80%. So men on average are being given $105,000 in stock options. Women are only being given $26,000. By the way, that's compounded by the fact that 25% fewer women are ever given stock options to begin with. Okay. So we have gender wage gap at 20%, stock options at 80%. 401s, the gender gap on that is 25%. Performance bonuses, the gender gap on that is 42%. Those 2 are from some recent research by Robert Walters Recruiting. And then, you know, we have other things like team size, but I'm gonna set that to the side for a second. And just focus on the compensation ones. So why does this matter? Let's imagine a world in which we have our hypothetical white male. And by the way, love white men, married to one. We're using this just as a comparison point. Let's say that that man, for easy math, I'm going to say that his base salary is $100,000. His stock options, let's say he gets the average stock option of $105,000. His 401 will give him an average match of 5%, and his performance bonus, let's say it's, you know, 10%. Okay, so his total compensation is $220,000. Let's look at a comparable woman whose base salary, because it's 20% lower, is going to be $80,000. She gets the average stock of 26. We're going to assume she's one of the people who does get stock, right? Her 401 is 25% lower, so she gets 3.5. And her performance bonus is 40% lower, so she gets $6,000. Her total compensation is $115,000. So when we look at the gender compensation gap, we're really talking about 50%. That is one of those things that— that's one of the reasons why we want to think holistically in negotiations. Because to your point, if you, you know, if there's no room in the budget for base salary, okay, I understand that. What about performance bonus? What about a signing bonus, a relocation bonus? What about a 401 match? What about all of these other places that we can can go to. My hypothesis is in a lot of those places, the gender gap's actually even a little bit larger than what we see in the base salary gap.

That's fucked. That's my official response to that. No, I'll— oh man. Let's say I'm listening to— because we'll do a whole separate episode on stock options and all of that. I don't work at a tech company. Stock options are not a thing. I imagine that there's also gaps in things like PTO, things like even the flexibility of how and when you work. I imagine there's data around men getting more lucrative or a signing bonus regardless of whether a woman's getting one. So talk to me about the other things too that we're seeing. Is there other research that is also saying, okay, there's this huge gap in, in the other benefits? that are negotiated?

So, I don't have as much on the other benefits. One thing that I do have that always stuck out to me is the gap in team size, which is really a gap in resources, right? So, women, as they're promoted to first-time managers, are getting teams that are 25% smaller than comparable men. And as they get promoted up, it actually gets worse to where we have women in executive levels whose teams are 40% smaller than comparable men's, right? And so, What that tells me is that as a woman, one, it's really important that I understand all the things that are negotiable, right? So, Gail Evans, who for a long time was the highest-ranking female in media, tells the story about how she didn't even know that CNN gave a car allowance until 8 years after she technically qualified for it because it wasn't written down, right? And so, as a woman, I, one, need to be doing a lot of research on what the Negotiable area is. It's not just base salary. And then 2, I need to be doing a decent amount of research on what the sort of bargaining zone is, which is an annoying, an annoying strategic term for like, what's actually possible? What should my salary actually be? What is a reasonable signing bonus? For a while there in COVID, people were getting retention bonuses. What the heck is that, right? What is hazard pay? How should I be thinking about all of these things?

So I want to take us back even before a negotiation or before you realize, okay, I need to negotiate. And do we think that women devalue themselves from the start? Like, we know the research that women often won't apply to jobs unless they meet most of the requirements, but men will apply if they meet like half. So is this a problem that goes back even further in terms of the jobs we think we're qualified for?

Yeah. I would argue it goes back even further than that. So research shows that when women are trying to value themselves, we're off by between 20% and 40%. By the way, we're actually excellent at valuing other people, and we can go into that in a little bit if you'd like. The research that pops into my mind that I find most stunning when you ask this question is some research done by Arnold and McGliff, which showed that you start to see a gender gap as early as age 8. So they did this really interesting study where they invited children into the lab and they gave them a coloring page and they said, hey, go color this and when you're done, bring it back to us. So the children went to their, you know, tables and colored, colored, colored, came back, handed it to the researcher, and the researcher said same thing every time because it was scripted. Thank you so much for your work. How much do I owe you? And what they found is that by 2nd grade, little girls were asking for 40% less than little boys were. And so the researchers would then take little girls who asked for less to the side and say, hey, why did you ask for that? That's the phrase. Hey, why did you ask for that? And the vast majority of the little girls said something along the lines of, I thought it was worth more, but I didn't want to upset anybody. And so these societal concepts of gender and how they intersect with negotiation is so in the water that we drink that before 2nd grade, right? So before you're like really reading chapter books, girls are intuitive enough. To know that this is a bit of a scary area. Now, we have given you solutions and we will keep talking about the solutions because there are solutions. That part is so important to get across. There are solutions, but there are solutions that are— because it's a big problem.

Listener, you can't see me. I'm like curled up in the fetal position, like throwing up. There's nothing worse for me, truly. And I'm not going to talk about it too much because because it's gonna make me cry, than like a little girl who has been told that she can't do it. Like, ah, it makes me so frustrated. And that this shit starts— like, I wrote the book, I get it. Like, I did this research too. But every time it's so frustrating where I'm like, oh, this shit goes back so fucking far. And it's just— sorry, I'm having a full conniption.

So, I agree. And I want to build. I agree. It's incredibly frustrating how far it goes back. The part that I find most frustrating, though, is how much bad information is out there.

Yeah.

And that's why I love listening to your podcast and reading your book. But like Wall Street Journal, January of last year, ran an article about how to negotiate where an expert said, and I quote, you go in there and you tell them you deserve to be paid more. As you can imagine, I did not sleep for multiple nights because as a woman, Think about the careers that were derailed by that advice being in the Wall Street Journal. It's irresponsible, right? Shit. And so anyway, that's why I just appreciate the opportunity. There are solutions. We're just— they're not out there. They're not— they haven't been in the limelight. They're not getting the spotlight they deserve.

So for someone who is working in a more corporate job or just in like a typical 9 to 5, From your research, what are some other factors that women face when it comes to negotiation and then career advancement, like day to day? Like, I'm thinking women are less likely to be credited with ideas than men are, right? Or that, that example you gave of, oh, we're going to take away the ability for you to present your work even though you're going to continue to do the work.

Really backlash at its best there. So the gender gap in negotiations, I just want to emphasize that that's not just the big negotiations. That's all the micro ones too. When's the deadline? Who's presenting? What team are you on? What resources do you get? These are teeny tiny conversations that happen multiple times a day that can really change the trajectory of your career when we optimize how to have them. But that's absolutely— that gender gap in success in negotiation is not just big, it's in all the small ways too. In terms of areas in the workplace where we see other gender gaps, so research points to gender differences in a lot of the key business skills, right? So negotiation, we talked about networking. My guess is most of us think that we need to have one type of network, like the broadest network possible, right? Research shows that's true for men. For women, we actually need 2 networks, and researchers have talked about what that difference is, right? But it's not out there. Time management. Hey, all your time management things, super great, buddy, but you're telling them in a world where I don't have an additional 28 hours of unpaid labor to do every week, your time management skills don't actually work for me. Feedback. Women are much more likely to get quote unquote nicer feedback, which actually isn't actionable and therefore impacts the trajectory of our careers. To your point, getting credit, right? These are all places where there is a gender gap and there's a fundamental problem we're hitting, which is that we're talking about these business skills as if the male perspective is the only perspective, whereas research is now starting to show that it's different for women in a lot of these places. And so we actually— we're running corporate programs now, and what we see is that when we teach business skills with a female lens, there's a 50% reduction in women who say they're intending to leave their job, because for the very first time These women have been given tools that are actually built for them.

And when we had Linda Babcock on too, she was talking about these like non-promotable tasks as well, being like a huge part of that. Who plans the birthday parties? Even like a DEI coalition at your company is very rarely compensated. And so women and typically women of color are doing a lot of these tasks that take up a ton of your day and a ton of your time and keep an office running. But then at negotiation time, it's very hard to convince someone who is, you know, in a position of power to be like, you need to compensate me because I planned the retirement parties. Like, that's a very— that's a difficult ask.

Yeah. Her work in that area is so phenomenal. It's really eye-opening.

Yeah. So we've kind of been dancing around this. Talk to me about the mistakes that women make in negotiations. I think of the first one, obviously, from our conversation, which is approaching it like a dude. That's not gonna work. Or taking the advice that like is for men and thinking, oh, that'll work for us as well. And of course, that's not our naivete. That's the fucking Wall Street Journal telling us that that's how we should do it. So, I feel like that's probably one mistake. Talk to me about some other mistakes that you're seeing women make in these negotiations.

So, there's 3 that I would say I see a lot. One is waiting until your back's against the wall. Negotiating historically, and I hope now with the tools that we're talking about, not as much, but negotiating historically, Historically has been more difficult for women. And so we tend to wait until we absolutely can't avoid it. The problem is that you get better results when you negotiate proactively. So, Tori, I'm actually thinking of the story that Molly Fletcher told on your podcast about negotiating that she didn't have rent in exchange for teaching this tennis class.

Yeah.

That's the kind of negotiation we want to be doing, right? Negotiation where you envision what you want, you think about what you need to get there, and then proactively negotiate it. So that's one, is waiting until your back's against the wall. If you can avoid it, I highly encourage you not to do that. The second one is negotiating just one issue at a time. And a lot of the things that I used to hear from my clients is they wanted to keep it easy for the person they were negotiating with, so they were just going to ask for one thing. The problem with that is if you just ask for one thing, then once, you know, budgets are locked or whatever it may be and their hands are tied, there's nowhere else to go. Instead, I would recommend asking for at least 3 things. So then, oh, well, you know, budgets are closed and we can't do a raise this year. Okay, I understand. What about that extra training? What about the performance bonus? Or what about assigning me a week to, you know, shadow X, Y, and Z team, or whatever the other things are that you want, right? In that sense, we know that from research you are much more likely to at least walk away with a couple of things. And then the third The other mistake that I see is one that we talked about earlier, which is just undervaluing ourselves. So my little trick here is because we know that we're actually excellent at valuing other people, I would encourage you to talk to a friend. Hey, here's my background. Here's the conversation I'm going to have. Here's what I'm thinking about asking for. What do you think? If you don't have time to talk to a friend, then just— this is the sort of mental ninja trick— just act like you are a friend. Act like you are advising a friend who has your same background, who's asking you your same thing, what would you say they are worth? And it is hysterical, also a little sad, how quickly when I say that to women, their faces change, because they're like, well, oh, Sally would be worth at least $20,000 more. It's like, okay, let's be as good to ourselves as we are to Sally.

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Yeah, one of the things that I've read in the research and that I try to teach women is even in the negotiation, we are very altruistic and selfless. And so we won't fight for ourselves. And when I say fight, I mean collaboratively, but like we won't go to bat for ourselves as much as we'll go to bat for our favorite coworker or our best friend or our partner. I have people, I have women picture, who are you actually negotiating for? Because unfortunately for women, we're not enough. So who are you negotiating for? Are you negotiating for your child? Are you negotiating for your partner, your favorite coworker who you believe deserves the raise and fair compensation? And it's interesting, it's almost a flip side of that, of like, start acting very impartial. Like, if Jane Doe is getting paid X amount with X benefits and had X amount of experience, what would she be getting paid, or what should she ask for?

I love that visualization trick. That— can I use that one?

Yeah.

That's fantastic.

It's unfortunate we're so altruistic that we, like, are not as good at fighting for ourselves, but we will go to bat for somebody else. We will, like, mama bear for somebody else.

It's unfortunate, but also, for me, it's something that I like about Oh, no, I care about others.

We're beautifully altruistic as women. It's fantastic. And it's also at our own detriment.

Exactly. And so that's what I think the RAE and the relational ask really does give you is it gives you a tool to ask for what is helpful to you in a way that honors the fact that we care about other people. And we care about our broader impact on the team, the company, the culture, the world, right? What I see afterwards is I have women say, Oh, I've never known how to negotiate and feel like I'm myself. It's never felt authentic to me. And now all of a sudden we can because we can honor who we are in that discussion.

Yeah. The thought of negotiating in what we believe is this high-stakes scenario, which is like negotiating for my salary, if, if we're nervous to do that, what are some ways we can build the muscle of negotiation? One of the examples I give is like calling up your credit card provider and asking for a lower interest rate, or I'm about to have a credit card that is cutting some of the benefits and I wanna call them and be like, hi, we're not gonna do this. Don't do this for me. How do we figure out how to not do this? So talk to me about like the muscle building that we can start to do in our everyday lives. Like, I think if you have kids, you're a master negotiator already. You negotiate with your children constantly. So what are some of those?

And they're completely irrational.

Oh, yeah. The low-stakes negotiations that help us build our own confidence and our own, yeah, negotiating muscle so that we do feel stronger when we go into these like higher-stakes negotiations.

So, Tori, to that point of if you're a parent, this morning I called my children down, hey, time for breakfast, time to go to school. And my 3-year-old clomps down the stairs wearing his tennis shoes and Nothing else. He is butt-ass naked, and he is trying to convince me that I'm ready for school. Mm-hmm. Okay, here we go, right? So to your point, a lot of people think about negotiation as this one-time, big, high-stakes conversation, and it's not. It is an everyday, all-the-time skill, like communicating or networking, that's really important for us to learn. And so if, to your point, Tori, like, let's ladder ourselves up here, right, before we go into end-of-year reviews, Let's talk about smaller negotiations that we can do in the workplace. Can you negotiate for, you know, additional resources? Can you negotiate to do that extra stretch project that you're excited about? Can you negotiate for whatever it may be, right? And then also outside of the workforce, can I negotiate— I'm shopping for stationery, this box is kind of open— can I negotiate 20% off because it's now an open box, right? These things. And a lot of times, you know, you're like, well, is it really worth it? Yeah, it's worth it just to build the muscle, right? We go to the gym so we can get stronger. We negotiate the 20% off so that we're learning those things. And I think the other important part of it is we're also learning how to deal with no. No is another gendered phenomenon. And that's a whole— Tori, that's a whole other rabbit hole I'm happy to go down with you. But like, no is a gendered phenomenon. And when we hear it, it is a hit to our identity, which is why we're scared of no. But if you can put yourself in a situation where you hear it all the time, you realize that no just means not this exact thing. at this exact moment. So let's take it as an opportunity to learn more. Okay, why, why can't we do that? What, what would change your answer? What do I need to do before this time next year to prove that I'm ready for that? Right. And so negotiating at stores, negotiating because you ordered dinner and you got a glass of wine and it turns out you actually really don't like that glass of wine. Let's negotiate that one back out and get another one in. Right. Those types of things are the perfect opportunities.

I want to highlight what you just said, which is if you hear no, what do you do? And it's exactly what you just highlighted, which is, okay, I appreciate you coming back to me. Thank you for that. What do I need to do in the next 6 months to get to that salary level? What do I need to do in the next year? What is the plan that we can outline together to make sure that, that, that can happen? And then when you inevitably do those things, cuz you're a fucking badass, you get to walk into your boss's office and be like, money, please. Now, what I've always told people too is get it in writing. Because I've seen companies do the shit and you can't see her. She's giving me a thumbs up, which is great. The things that happen is like you have this conversation and your boss is like, uh-huh, cool, cool, cool, cool. And then it's never in writing. And then you do all of the things and you work your butt off. And then 6 months later you're like, where's my raise? And they're like, I never promised you that. What are you talking about? Like, you just did your job.

Or they replaced your boss or they went through a merger or they— 100 other things. And so, to your point, I agree. What we always say is after you've had that conversation Number one, the goal is to walk away with a rubric. I want a checklist of X, Y, and Z things I need. And when they say, well, you need to do something that's very nebulous, it's okay, great. How do I do that thing? Right? I worked with a woman once who, in order to get the promotion, her boss was like, we need to run a P&L. You just can't make up a P&L. And she was like, okay, well, how do I do that? And he was like, oh, right, we haven't given you the opportunity. Here, let me, let me break off part of mine and give it to you to run. And it was like, well, thank you. Right? So here's the checklist of what I'm going to do, and we've talked through how I'm going to do it. I'm going to leave your office. I'm going to write you a note that says, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate the guidance. Here's what we discussed. Please let me know if I misunderstood any of this. And then every time you check a box, you send another note. Thank you so much for that discussion we had in February. I really appreciate the time. I'm stoked to share that we were able to X, Y, and Z because I did whatever thing you told me to do, right? Really looking forward to that annual review this year.

I will also say, as someone who now is a boss, I need that because I have a million things going on and I might not remember. I'm not trying to skirt out of giving you a raise. I might not remember everything we discussed. Or to your point about like, yep, I did it. That would be great for me to have a check-in of like, great, my person that I manage is doing their job and fucking killing it. Great. And then I get a great moment to be like, hopefully a good boss, and be like, yay, I'm so excited for you. Let's, let's have a conversation in the next couple weeks. It's also doing me as a boss a favor because I have a busy life, I have everything going on, and if you can make my job easier, I'm more likely to give you a fucking raise.

Well, I— and the thing that I love about that, Tori, is sometimes when we talk about negotiations, there's a tendency to demonize the manager, and that's not the case, right? I guess occasionally it might be the case, but very rarely.

I would love to give you more money, but sometimes there's budget restrictions, or we just had this huge unexpected cost, or we have to bring on 3 other team members to hopefully support you and not have you take on as much work. So it's like, there's a lot of things that we're always thinking about. And, and for me, at the end of the day, like, I want to treat people well. I would love to give you a raise. There might be some factors that play into whether I can do that or not.

And that's why I love this idea of asking for multiple things, because, I mean, a lot— one thing that we see a lot of times in bigger companies is that the salary is officially locked. Like, that's not always a line, but it's much more fuzzy over here in performance bonus land, or signing bonus land, or moving bonus land, or retention bonus land, right? These are all— they live in, you know, on money trees. And so that's why I love this idea of always negotiating for more things.

What is something that we can do in our own organizations where we can advocate for more transparency around pay or just generally build more equitable workplaces without as much gender bias?

I really like that you do these softball questions.

That was sarcasm, everybody, in case you didn't read that subtext.

Yeah, we're just— we're going to solve gender equity. in the workplace right here, right now.

Let me break it down. Like, I'm thinking, like, figure out how to not do those non-promotable tasks, or figure out a way to show their value, or just have conversations about your pay with your coworkers. I'm thinking about, is there some actionable things we can start doing as individuals?

Yes, I think all of those, right? And the more, I believe, the more transparent we are, the better it is. There's a rabbit hole, by the way, that I can go down on how information travels and what that means, but we'll put a pin in that one. We can really go there if you want to, right? I think the way that I am thinking about it right now is really a mindset shift that gives us more grace. And so what I mean when I say that is, the business world was not built for us. And the tools that exist in that world were not built for us. And so I try to picture— I live in Georgia. And so I try to picture like the Masters in Augusta, going into the Masters, and every golfer there being handed a golf club that was built for the average woman who is 5'4, right? Can you imagine the volume of complaints we would hear? What is this shit, right? Like, this was not built for me. What about this shit? Like, of course, I can't do my work with this. You are asking me every day to do my work with tools that weren't built for me. So, the way that I've started to think about it is creating this research-backed toolset for women so that we can stop using the things that were built for men. And so, I think that what that means for your listeners is like, get your hands on gender-specific training and then share it with your colleagues, right? This episode, share this episode with your colleagues, because now what you're doing is you're not only giving them the information they need, but you're creating a support network. We can now support each other when we're preparing for these conversations because we're coming from the same information base. That's kind of the way that I'm thinking about it right now. The answer to this question evolves monthly though. So happy to, happy to have this conversation again soon.

I don't mean to ask you the solve inequality question for me, but that ends up, that ends up happening, I think, with every guest. We're like, so I'm just trying to take it like, because at the individual level, right, it's negotiate your salary and learn how to do that. But also none of this changes unless the actual, like the aquarium we're in changes, you know? So I'm trying to figure out what are the ways that we as an individuals can help contribute to that change, you know?

Well, and I think it's building awareness around the fact that it's amazing how I see managers, just the look on their face, managers of all genders, when they find out that on average women are given 25 to 40% fewer resources to do the same job. Wait, what? And then you kind of break it down and all of a sudden it's like, oh, you see behind the curtain here, right? And so right now I think it's an information game. I would say, you know, we know that information travels through historical sources of power, which is white men at this point in time. And so, when you are thinking about doing research for your negotiation, make sure you don't just ask women. Make sure you ask men too. And you can ask— I love asking former colleagues because, like, they don't have a dog in this fight, right? They don't care. You can ask recruiters. We actually have a list of 50 places you can go to, right? But make sure that you're not just asking women.

If you can leave our listeners with one tip or one piece of advice for them walking into a negotiation, what would it be?

Well, the first thing is reassurance. You have a huge leg up because you've listened to this episode and you realize that there actually is a different way to do it, right? A different way that, you know, hopefully honors who you are. The second thing I would say is that it's really important to plan a reward afterwards, to reward yourself for being brave. And we know from research that if you have something to look forward to, it actually changes how you act in the negotiation. That makes you more successful. But just having this conversation makes you brave. So let's reward that, right? Maybe it's a dinner out with friends. Maybe it's that you're gonna forget all of the things I need to do at home, and I'm just gonna go on the hike that I really want to go on, right? Maybe it's that bottle of wine you've been eyeing, but— can you tell I'm a drinker? That bottle of wine you've been eyeing, but you haven't purchased yet. Whatever it may be, like, plan that afterwards, and then give it to yourself just because you were brave. The other thing that I think it's helpful for people to know is when I was coaching, I would have folks come to me and say, oh, I failed because they didn't agree to it in that meeting. The average negotiation takes 25 days because these things are really big and important. And so, you know, give yourself some grace on that.

That honestly seems quick to me.

Well, that's average, right? Half of them take longer.

25 days seems fast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I remember negotiating because I used to do coaching as well, and there was a It took 3 months, 3 and a half months, I think, to finally go from like first ask to the salary number changed in the like payroll platform. What's so important, and what I always say too, is that a negotiation's success is not you got what you wanted, but that you tried.

Oh, I love that, Tori. Yes.

Success in a negotiation is I was brave enough to like show up, and I prepared, and I did all of the shit. And even if they said no, or even if they said not now, that is success because I showed up and I did my best and I prepared all my research. And you'll love this. I actually was cleaning out my closet probably about 2 months ago, and I found my manila file folder of all of my data and my stuff I had put together to ask for my first raise at my first big girl job. And it looked like a crib sheet. You know, it was like in Pencil and then like 3 different colors of pen when I would remember new things. And I had it like labeled of like, first you're gonna say this and then you're gonna say this. And then I had gone— I don't recommend this— but I had gone to coworkers and basically been like, hi, can you give me a review of working with me? You know, somebody reviews books of, you know, Tori is a well-organized and helpful member of my team. Like, I literally went—

So now I have a testimonial.

Literally, I was like, I put together testimonials and I remember My boss being like, these are unnecessary. And I'm like, okay, great feedback, good to know. But I found the folder. I spent weeks preparing for this. 23-year-old me, like weeks preparing. And I look at that and I'm like, God, she did so much work and she was so fucking brave. And like, I ended up getting what I wanted, which was great. But I was also just like, you know what? You know what? She she worked her tail off. And I could have looked at that and been like, you know what? A little cringe. It wasn't. It was sweet, and it was just like, great, that was success. It was like, I was doing this really scary thing with my white man boss who was in his 50s, and like, oh my God, it was so scary, but we did it. And that was the success, is we did it.

Well, and the thing that really drives me is picturing that, right? You picture that ambitious woman who cares that much and what she did. Was she went to a Barnes Noble, right? And she got all the information she could get, right? Or she Googled it today, and she read that Wall Street Journal article, and she integrated it into her plan. That's just not fair. Like, what we're doing there is, is wrong. Yeah.

What is the pep talk that you wish you could give women? I am thinking about the pep talk I would give 22, 23-year-old me. Give me a sentence or two. What is the pep talk if they're about to walk in? Maybe they're listening to this as they're about to walk into a negotiation. What is— what do you want to say to them? What's the pep talk?

The first thing I want to say is that you're incredibly brave, and we are totally behind you on this one. The second thing I want to say is you have a huge leg up now because you've listened to this episode and you actually know there's another way that isn't being talked about. And the third thing I want to say is just remember the RAY. No matter what you're asking for, just remember the RAY: past performance plus future vision. It's really important. That's the thing we're all behind. plus your ask, and then stop talking. No matter what you're asking for, if you can just run it through that formula, we know your chances of success are much higher and your risk is much lower, which means, frankly, you can ask for whatever the hell you want if there's no risk, right? Like, just go have a field day.

Amazing. Kathryn, thank you so much for your time and for your work. Where can people find out more about you?

Tori, it has been a true pleasure to be on this with you. Thank you. For the opportunity. For any listeners, I would say there's 2 things. One, I want to offer you our resource of 75 things that we've seen women successfully negotiate. And so, if you go to our website, it's worthmorestrategies.com. At the top, there's a yellow bar, click on that, and we'll have that list emailed straight to you. And the second thing is we're really— we're not coaching anymore. And I'm really focused on speaking and trying to get this message out to just as many women as I can. So, if you happen to be part of a women's organization or an ERG, or if you're organizing a conference, consider recommending me as a speaker. Like, help us get this message out to more women.

I love it. Thank you so much for being here.

Thanks, Tori.

Thank you to Kathryn for joining us. You can find out all of the information about how to work with her, how to get her salary information, her calculators that she talked about in the Episode down below, linked in the description. Thank you so much for being here, Financial Feminists. This episode, I think, is especially important to share to make sure that you and the people in your life are getting compensated fairly for their work, and how to go about asking for more money if you discover you are not being compensated fairly. So please feel free to share this episode far and wide. We would so appreciate it.

Thank you so much for being here.

Hope you have a kick-ass week. Good luck on your annual review. And I'll see you next time. And I'll talk to you soon. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First $100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, associate producer Tamisha Grant, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Sophia Cohen, Khalil Dumas, Elizabeth McCumber, Beth Bowen, Amanda LaFue, Masha Bakmetyeva, Kaelin Sprinkle, Samaya Molokario, and Harvey Carlson. Research by Ariel Johnson, audio engineering by Alyssa Medcalf, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First $100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First $100K, our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.