E01: Product Management at Microsoft ft. Katie Goldstein

All right, Katie, we are here and so glad to have you here.

Yeah, thanks for inviting me. I'm honored to be here. It's really. I've been super excited.

Well, I think we reached out to each other on LinkedIn and it's very interesting what you're doing with Katie's office hours. That's the most interesting thing I want to ask you about the. Yeah. So let's start with that and tell us about yourself and how has 2020 been for you?

Yeah. So lots to unpack there. I'll start with your second question, which is tell me about yourself. I'm Katie. Nice to meet you guys who are watching. I'm a recent college graduate from San Francisco, a little south, and I'm an incoming program manager at Microsoft, which means I'll be doing a lot of fun product management, overseeing and rallying a team around a product. We'll see which one, which product I'm on. But I have always loved to help people and I've always loved to find new and innovative ways to explore the world. My parents taught me that. It manifested really young. They moved us to Spain for a little bit, which was an amazing experience and has really been a through line of my life. I studied Spanish in college and have always really harbored a desire to learn more about the world, other languages, other cultures. And it's also translated in my desire to help people, which I think is where my office hours comes in, is I've always spent a lot of my time trying to give back. I understand there are a lot of ways to give back in the world, but time has always been, I say it's my selfish way to give back because I get to see the direct effects of my help. So I've spent a lot of my time in high school and college and now volunteering, working with people, trying to provide some use, advice, some of my skills. I love to talk, as you can tell. So that has been a very validating experience. And that is actually where my office hours were born out of that desire to help. Especially when there's so much going on in the world right now with COVID Police brutality, systemic racism, climate change, like pick your poison. The world's crazy right now. And I had a lot of time after graduation, three months before starting my job, which I start very soon. And I was talking it over with a friend, like, how can I help? How can I give back to the world right now? LinkedIn has always been my favorite social media, which I think says a lot about me, but I always Love to go on and browse it. And just by nature of connecting with new people, networking, going on it a lot, I've seen a lot of really interesting things on there and I know it's like the professional Facebook, if you'll allow me, but I've seen so many great expressions of vulnerability, assistance, interest. If you follow the right people, you'll learn so much just by like browsing LinkedIn in your spare time. And so when I realized I wanted to help people and give back, at first I was like, what do I do? What do I have? I'm a new grad, what can I offer the world? But I had been working for the center for Professional Development, which is like the career center at my school for a little bit before I graduated. And so I had resume training and I've always loved to talk, give advice and have mentored a couple of my younger friends through job interviews and just career exploration in general. And so I decided to offer that in June I piloted a resume review for about 20 students and I sent out forms. I was like, was this helpful? And they all said it was. And I also included a question, would you like to discuss other topics? And a lot of them, most of them did. So I decided to make a quick post on LinkedIn about it because it was the community that had given so much back to me and it is a professional community so it made sense to offer professional services on there. Originally I wanted to charge and then donate the profits, but it felt wrong to do that and so I decided to just offer time slots as my schedule allowed, which I have no schedule, I'm not working yet, so it's been super validating. I love talking with everyone. I've met so many new people. I met you through office hours and so it's been a really fun experience. Hopefully I've been helpful. The follow up surveys results say so, but people also might just be nice, but it's something that I plan to continue doing probably with a little less frequency once work starts. But it's been really fun and I really enjoyed it so far. 2020 is also too. That's your last question. There's a lot going on but I'm at home in California with my parents, my dogs, so there's not much more I can really want in the world. But definitely a lot of time for reflection. Well, that's typing out the lines of code and so I wanted to do that more outside of my classes. And Dartmouth had an on campus startup accelerator called Dolly that I applied for as a Project manager, which is a little different from product in that it's more like timeline based. You're not. Yeah, there's so many names, so many names. But when in default just write PM because they usually start with P. But it was a lot more timeline based, just like rallying the team, motivating them to get the work done efficiently and as per the minimum viable product, which is what usually the client wants as possible. It was the best experience ever. The team was incredible. I learned so much from them. It was two designers, two developers and we worked with this awesome partner and in 10 weeks, which is a very, very fast time to build something, we built him a GUI to test if Octopi had working memory and it was the best project ever. I knew I wanted to pursue product, some kind of business in tech role and product had a little bit more strategy attached to it. I sought out internships in the field. There's not a lot, there's very few of them, but I networked with a bunch of people and just kept emailing product that I knew through Dartmouth, through LinkedIn. The kids I babysat, maybe their father had a friend or their mother had a friend and I just tried to get my hands in every pie, so to speak, and learn about product at a lot of different companies. And that translated really well. After I sent in some applications, talked with a bunch of people, I ended up getting 2pm internships at Cash app, which is Square's Venmo, which was amazing, great experience, great team, solidified my desire to go into product. And then I interned at Disney in the emerging tech segment of the Parks, which was also just an incredible experience. And so to connect with your question, why Microsoft? I knew after those two amazing internship experiences like I had to go into product, it had everything I wanted. Smart people, constant challenges, way to make impact. And so when it came time for applications full time, I knew it was a little different from an internship. It's not a three month segment, it's a company that I hope that your first job, you like the company because you could be there for a really long time. I cast my net wide because again there's not so many new grad PM opportunities and kept talking to people at each company that I was applying for or applying at. The Microsoft people just stood out. They were so smart, so savvy. I wanted to be them, I wanted to be around them. They gave me so much of their time and mentored me throughout the process. And so in the back of my mind there was always thought like damn Excuse my French. These people are cool. And so when I got the interviews and prepped for them, and I can talk about that as well, in the back of my mind, I always really appreciated Microsoft, the company Bill Satya, the CEOs, the leadership and as well as the people I'd be working with really stood out. And so when it was coming time to decide where I was going to work, it was pretty much an easy decision in that I wanted to be around the coolest, smartest people. I'm from San Francisco, so it was fun to be offered the chance to explore Seattle. So hopefully I'll get the chance to do that in the new year. And then I also knew that like, you know, as a new grad pm I wanted to learn the most from those around me but also have opportunities to learn. And Microsoft's new grad PM program is one of the best around. So it was an easy decision to make. Microsoft as a company too, I could really give you this feel, but they really care about their employees. I wanted to work at a company that valued me as an employee, as a person. They have a great volunteer matching program, great work. Life balance. There's more to life than just work. Even though work can be a big part of life. And that was really important in picking product and Microsoft and they also like. Microsoft does such cool, cutting edge things. They donate a lot to those around them and then they also are such an inspiration in terms of the research papers that they write. Most of the research papers that I read in my topics in Human Computer Interaction class were from Microsoft. So that is the launch deal I could probably go on. I'm really excited to start when you.

Start working and what are you prepping for before the work starts officially and. Yes. Well then let's go back to the prep before the interview also.

Yeah, totally. So to cover that, I start in a couple weeks, which is really nice. They gave me a nice long break to enjoy myself after college. But I'm definitely getting a little bored and I am really excited to meet everyone, even though it's through a screen which, you know, so it goes as Kurt Vonnegut says. Some things that I've been doing to prepare for that, you know, of course all my required onboarding and stuff, I just, I took my badge photo yesterday, which is something I, I totally forgot about. But I'm, you know, I need a badge. And so it was up against this wall because it's like the only wall in my house that doesn't have something behind it and it's like me just smiling and my mom was nice enough to help me take the photo. But beyond the requirements, I'm reading a lot of different articles about how to start work, like what to do as a new grad, which is really helpful learning how to set like 10, 30, 60 day goals, what questions to ask your manager. And I'm actually trying to put together like a medium post that I'll probably publish on LinkedIn in a couple of weeks once I start about like how to start your new grad job remotely because I feel like there's not so many articles I've been able to find about that specifically. I've also been calling a lot of, of like Microsoft PMs that you know, I called during the preparation part of the process when I was interviewing and they've been so lovely. One has been like mentoring me and it's just the kindest human to give me their time. But I've asked them a lot like how do you, what do you think a new grad should do? What about, what should they do remotely? And the answers I've gotten back range widely but it's a lot of like meet people one on one as much as you can keep your camera on, which is something that I will do. Yeah, that's probably what I'll be doing in a lot of meetings is like troubleshooting my camera. But apparently it's for people to know the new face. So this is what they're gonna see all day hopefully. And I think that's a lot of what I've been doing to prepare, getting my work environment set up. I'm gonna be working from home for a couple months which is really nice to get that unfettered family time. But it's definitely a different, yeah, it's a different vibe than I expected for my 20s, but it's definitely not a bad one. The flexibility of work from home is so nice. So that's what I'm doing to prepare and then I'm happy to circle back around to prep for the interviews. Basically there's a lot, there's a lot in the recruiting process and it's, there's a lot to keep track of. And something important to keep track of always is like your mental health. It's not easy to recruit for jobs if you're a student, if you're a new graduate, if you're transitioning roles. So most importantly, value yourself, take a deep breath. Rejection breeds resilience and resilience is beautiful. But it always helps if you can pick yourself back up with a nice face mask or a movie. So that mental health kind of reminder aside, something that's been really helpful for me is just keeping track of it all. I'm definitely type A, very organized. So keeping track of my recruiting process from like what opportunities I was applying to, what I needed to do, who I was talking to, who to follow back around on in a Google sheet, even Excel. Trello. I use Trello. It's a cool little like card based organization platform, but to each their own. It was really helpful for me because I guess as I said, there's a lot to crap you need to find the opportunities to apply for. You have to create your Resume and your LinkedIn. Networking, I think should always be a huge part of anyone's job process. Just to understand more about the company and role and also to get more insight into answers that they might ask you during the interview. There's referrals which relate directly to networking, behavioral preparation, technical preparation, and honestly, there's so many other topics that are kind of wrapped in the whole recruiting process. So there's a lot. But it's manageable. You can do it. And that's why keeping track of your mental health and also everything you're doing is not only very validating, but can also be a little bit like, it can decrease stress levels. So I'm happy to take those one at a time if that works for you, Nishi. Okay, perfect. Let's talk sourcing opportunities. Oh, sorry.

How do you reach out to people? I think that's sourcing opportunities.

Yeah, totally. So let's say you find a super cool opportunity on like a LinkedIn or you just, you know, this cool company that you're dying to work for and maybe they don't have a role, but you know someone or you see someone interesting who, you know, studied something similar to you or has the job title you're obsessed with. That's a great time to reach out. And to reach out, there's usually like one of two methods like LinkedIn or email are the two that I would advocate. I've never gotten like a Facebook message or a tweet like that's like, hey, Katie, will you talk to me about jobs? But the unconventional methods are always an option. But personally I would advocate for LinkedIn or email if you have their email or contact information. But it's pretty simple to reach out. And if you're a student or a new graduate, it's probably the best thing you can do in my mind is learning about other people, their jobs, their roles it's something I wish I did more of in college and I'm a little jealous I can't go back and repeat it so that I can talk to more cool alumni or people I know. Because when you're a student, I your job is to learn. That's your job. It's in the job title. You're a student. And so networking is a great extension of that because you're learning about the corporate world and what people do and their companies. And I think commonly something I've heard a lot in my office hours is people are nervous about reaching out and I totally empathize. It's nerve wracking. What if they don't respond? I don't know. What if the worst thing in the world happens and I don't know. The mind snowballs. But it's really, it's not just a take when you're asking someone for their time. It's also a give in that when you're a student and you're giving your ear like you right now listening to me, you know, people are so happy to talk and that's why I have my office hours. I love to share my knowledge and I guess mentor another generation to speak broadly. It's definitely not as cool as that, but definitely I implore all students to reach out. Again I mentioned I did it in college. I reached out to two people a week. Did not have 100% response rate but I was able to talk to such cool people like the president of Y Combinator and I met for coffee back before COVID and we talked all about like biogenetic warfare and what will happen if there's a pandemic. And you know, it's very. And I talked to the also a CEO of this really cool company Storyworth, which is basically like books that you, it's like a book kit that you work with your parents to kind of tease out their memories and write a book about it. And my point being is that these people are so cool and they gave me the time of day and so I really implore you to network. But the way to do that again as I mentioned is through like email or LinkedIn. There's a couple of best practices that I'll recommend. One, keep it short and sweet. Especially if you don't have LinkedIn Premium and you can't write a whole InMail message. You only have 250 words but you can do a lot with those. So keep it short and sweet. Something about how you found them, like hi, I'm Katie. I found you on LinkedIn. Your profile is super cool. Say something about yourself. I am so interested in your company because of this or I read this cool article about you and I want to know more. Say something about why them and their company, maybe their role. Your role as a PM at Microsoft is something I'm really interested in. I would love to talk further if you have some time in the next coming weeks and then thank you, Katie. I usually include a contact number like a cell phone, just so it kind of tees up the eventual phone call. The more personalized the better. I once emailed the VP of Pokemon, a VP of Pokemon. She covered Pokemon for Asia. And I wrote this whole big thing about how I loved Pokemon as a kid, which I guess now that's out there on the YouTube world. But I loved it and all these things and I honestly, I don't know exactly why she responded, but I'm sure it had something to do with how much time I put into the email. The other thing I'll say with networking is sometimes I've also heard this in office hours, people wonder why they're not hearing back from people they've reached out to. And I recommended that they actually take some of the overhead off of the person that a student is reaching out to in that they include a couple of different like times. So you'll include a couple dates and time chunks. So if you're asking for like 20 minutes of someone's time, which you'll always get 30. Usually calls are 30, but if you ask for 20 it sounds a little less of an ask little trick.

Do you have in mind? How about oh yeah, for the person. Yeah, so going to be about.

Yeah, yeah, totally, definitely during networking, I mean it's a conversation, it's not just like a check, check, check the boxes. And so I think a lot of the best questions I've been asked in office hours or in networking calls are the ones that are different that you don't hear every day. It's definitely useful to ask people like how did you get from point A to point B? Maybe a school to a role or one role to the next, or how did you find this opportunity as well as like their day to day work and the culture. I would always recommend asking those three questions because you'll get different answers. But I think to your point, like the fun questions that turn into conversations that mean something that when you circle back around with them, if you're asking for a referral or you know, just want to hear back from them and maintaining their relationship that they get excited about you. There are a lot of just the questions that come to your mind that are a little more personal. I personally like what excites you about the world today or like, you know, something in the technology landscape because it gives the person like so much bandwidth to talk about something they've been dying to talk about. Another good question, if you're like actively interviewing at the company or interested is like tell me about a memory or like something about your company that like exemplifies the culture. That's how I learned. One of the companies I was applying for had rooms that were named after mathematicians. And that's something that was not on the website. Yeah. That I had no idea about. But I mentioned in an interview and the interviewer was like, how did you know that? That's amazing. No, I mean it. There's a lot of great questions on medium that like just peruse medium. You can say like good questions to ask people, but definitely try and find like some extra questions to spice up the conversation to learn more about the person, how they think, but also have more of a sparkly conversation. Those are, that's my best tips for what to talk about.

I think once you break the ice, you'll find a way. You'll find a way and the conversation totally. And even they're going to interact. So that should not be that nerve wracking. Just go out there and send that message, take that call.

Totally.

Yeah.

What's the harm? Takes two minutes.

Sure. Yep. So I think this is like a constant process and not like just when the applications are open, you go and apply. But there is some constant networking that you have to do. Networking is not done in a day and well. So yeah, I think that has worked really well for you. So happy to.

Yeah. And that's a great point that you bring up is you know, there's always a rush to network when applications open. But as much as you can, if you know you're interested in a company or a place, like if you have the time, send out a couple emails now and learn about them ahead of the recruiting schedule. That way it's not just the check, check, check kind of conversation. Oh, can you refer me to this position? It's a fun, interesting conversation. And when you circle back around when applications open, be it over another call, a catch up call, a shorter one, or even just a simple email, you could be like, I've been thinking of you in our conversation. And you get to that genuine point of networking where it is that back and forth that you talked about Nishti, and I mean, that's what life is all about, right? Like relationships and interacting with people. You know, you may fight with me on that one. That's fine. That can be our question that we talked about in our networking call, what life is all about. But it's definitely. It's nice to remind yourself there are people like that. Honestly, that does go back to why I chose Microsoft, is those people that I found myself thinking about that I circled back around with, who gave me their time, were Microsoft PMs.

Well, yeah. Tell us about how your graduation has been this year in 2020. You've been fortunate. Did you have, like, a virtual ceremony and what would you say to students who are coming in next year? So we launched the live show and we had a couple of questions from students that whether or not we should be, you know, thinking about Masters for next year or maybe the next. Next. How. How does it go? What do you think?

Totally. I mean, you're so right. We had a virtual graduation ceremony, which was. Was not what I expected for my college graduation, but it was really fun. We have an orange tree in the backyard. And so my parents and my little brother were so sweet. They woke up early, juiced some oranges. We had, you know, like, Mimosas. I'm over 21, and it was a really special time just to celebrate all the hard work. And it wasn't what a lot of us anticipated, but we had 3.6 years at 1 of the best colleges in the world. And so I think a lot of my friends, while they're a little sad and disappointed, we cycled through the, like, five stages of grief process pretty fast and were able to enjoy it for what it was. I have a lot of empathy for the students going through school right now. I know it's hard. I'm so sorry that it's not the classic school experience that you hoped for, that you wished for, that you anticipated. It's rough and it sucks. There's a lot going on in the world for sure, but I think we can still take our disappointments in stride. And I do think that the future of remote education is right. I loved my last quarter of classes and was able to make new friends and talk with my teachers. Who knows what it would have been like in person, but it's possible. And then I want to get to your question about Masters and stuff. I mean, yeah, if you've ever been thinking about getting your master's and you know you want to get it, why not? What's the harm in applying and I do think it's definitely a very personal situation for people. Will the masters help them get ahead in their career? Do they have the means to pay for it? All of these questions are valid ones to weigh, but I would say the best thing to do is network. If you want to figure out if you should do a Master's. I've never done one. I can only share from my experience. So why not reach out to someone in a really cool Master's program that you think is super exciting. You'll get insight into like, is it worth it? How are they planning on transitioning to remote instruction? What are the job opportunities like after your master's? What have been some fun memories from your master's? All of those questions would be great to ask master students and even administrators of the program if you, you know, are interested in a school. Usually they'll send out like emails and you can maybe email them back and say I'm curious. Explore the website, but I think if you've ever been thinking about it, now is a good time to go back to school. It's also probably possible to do a lot of part time masters if you are looking for a job or have found one just because you could probably do it online.

All right, okay, so that's that for students who are planning to go for college in the next year remotely and students have already applied, so all the best to you guys. And if you need any help regarding college, reach out to Katie on Katie's office hours.

Yeah, they're around.

Do you think you have anything to discuss?

Yeah, well, I just love talking with you Nishi, even though I probably talk most of the time, but it's been so fun you guys. Thanks for tuning in. Nishi's amazing sun looks really cool and I love this research lab show. So I'm really again honored to be a part of it. I guess the last thing I'll say is my advice for any students, recent graduates who are interested in product, interested in tech, interested in the world more broadly. And I have a couple different pieces of disjointed advice for you, but this is always a question that I ask at the end of my networking calls. So I. So people are very liberal with their advice, so take it with a grain of salt. But a couple of things off the top of my head is like talk to people, be shameless about networking and if you don't feel the most comfortable over the phone, email is perfectly fine. But take this opportunity to learn from others because there is so much stored insight in people's heads are probably like the Silicon Valley big shots. But that is again, why I recommend networking is talking with people about their, like, valid experiences and their lived experiences is usually a lot more centering than just blindly like, you know, working on your resume and trying to send in all these applications. So try to keep that in mind. It's something I try to remind myself of a lot. But take care of yourself. It's my last piece of advice.