#122 - Unlocking Fencing Business Success: Insights from Cassie Niekamp

I'm John Wilson. Welcome to Owned and Operated. Twice a week we talk about home service businesses, and if you're a home service entrepreneur, then this is gonna be the show for you. We talk about our own business in residential plumbing, HVAC, and electric, and we also talk about business models that we just find interesting.

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Thanks for joining us again on Owned and Operated. Today's the second half of our conversation with Cassie Niekamp, who has a fencing business down in Columbus. I hope you enjoyed it as much as we did.

Let me give you 2 differences though in fencing that doesn't apply to plumbing. Like plumbing does not depend on the economy. Fencing in residential highly does. People do not. Q4 and Q1 of this year were highly soft for residential. We just couldn't get conversions where they typically were. And so in a down market, it is good to diversify in a market like Columbus that's just building like crazy. Like there's so much infrastructure being built. And then for security, even in down years, you know, there's theft in commercial properties like that keeps us quite busy. Repairs, gate operators, all of those sorts of product lines. And then for us, being a small but mighty team, there's a lot of efficiencies in larger projects. Like less, there's just like less material ordering, less permitting responsibilities. Like there's just more efficiencies. So like the juice is worth the squeeze there because— We can get more efficient.

If it makes you feel better, Cassi, I also, I also like B2B the way that you do.

Mm-hmm.

Um, when John and I did an exercise a few, few months ago about which businesses are our dream businesses, and all of John's were residential landscaping, residential this, direct-to-consumer that, all of mine were business, B2B, B2B, B2B, because, um, I think I'm more operationally minded as well and, and really good at those efficiencies. But with that being said, I get to have fun with the general public, which are known to be sane and level-headed, level-headed, reasonable at all times, especially in down markets.

You know, I'd have to run the numbers because we oftentimes do— we don't do any residential repairs, honestly. We only do commercial repairs. So I'd have to run the numbers. I don't have them top of mind. But I would say close to 15, 15 to 10% gut check. And the thing about repairs too is like, it's almost a customer service play. So one of our big customers is XBO Logistics. They needed, like, he sent me an email and said, hey, we have a post-leaning, we're going to fail inspection. So I sent you guys over there yesterday, same day, got it straightened. It was $275. Like, I'm not getting rich off of $275 service calls. But the moral of that story is he just depends on us on such a high level for all of his projects that that's part of our customer service to attend to him even as painful as those small visits will be.

So speaking of that marketing, to backtrack, so how are you Pushing forward through and really driving that B2B marketing? Because if that's the direction you're going, what's the, what's the plan and outlook to get there?

Um, yeah, that was a big, um, expense in December. We got a new website in January. We partnered with Service Scalers. They've been doing great. Uh, every week, uh, consistently I get lower cost per lead and higher cost per click. So, um, we are only doing digital marketing. And last year I did a mailer to some of the local builders exchange. Um, I didn't see the needle move there, but it's kind of like I have a nice little postcard that has some of our visuals on it and I got maybe a handful of leads from it, but it is all digital, all online. So I also didn't know you had to, like, I was the one in the class who I didn't know that you had to like go in and book that call.

So, oh, so you're just paying for them to come in? Yes.

And in fact, Service Scalers has been checking that for me. It's so eye-catching, I think, on a, on a Google search. Like you can't help but not, I love the placement. I love where it's at.

Yeah.

So I still wanna participate there, but, uh, it's not my favorite.

Well, and like John said, it's for residential mostly. So, mm-hmm. I mean, I idealistically it's for residential. So if you're really trying to grow the GC side, it's very difficult. It's more, that's what I have trouble wrapping my head around is the relationship building that's required in B2B marketing.

I think it's huge. I don't think it can be understated enough, but without a solid web presence, like I just don't think you're, you're winning. You know, when people say, I don't know about you, but they go to check out our website, see examples of our work and read our reviews. And you're like, hmm, okay, this person or this company is legit.

Yeah.

So, I think it's almost like a portfolio rather than taking somebody down a customer journey. It's literally like, this is who we are.

With that, I do have a question. So, I mean, we started off at a very similar point, right? I was a sub-$1 million company. We made about $700,000, $800,000 our first year. You did that. Do you feel the velocity now that You guys are getting to this $3 million mark. You're actually hiring, uh, more people. You're hiring ops managers. Does that velocity feel like it's taking off, or does it just feel like more stress?

It still feels like a grind. It feels like a slog, you know. And one day I'm like, I see the fruits of my labor. I see this coming together. Um, a great example is that my brother-in-law, um, I've dreamt of him joining the business since we've started and he just joined in January. Like, that is a huge add that I couldn't wait to have him on the team. And I'm so excited about his contributions. And then like last week we messed up insurance billing and I found out that I've been actually paying 100% of some of our employees' benefits for like the tune of 7 or 8 months and we didn't catch it.

Yeah.

And I'm like, how, how did we make this mistake? You know? It still feels like a real grind. I'm at the point where I would like to be a little less emotional about the business. I think I should be. I go home and I think about it even though I shouldn't and I don't want to, but I do. I wake up at 2 or 3 AM with a thought and it's like, when will this stop?

So If it makes you feel any better, misery loves company. And as a similar size business to you are now trying to break that $5 million mark, we are on track. Uh, yes, 100%. All of those feelings are valid to the point where I was up till 1 PM or 1 AM last night thinking about the business and having the same, uh, worries about stuff falling through the cracks. I don't know if that changes. Um, I hope it does at some point.

I hope so. I hope so.

I think at, uh, I've been told that the $5 million mark you get some relief, and then at the $10 million mark, you get some significant relief. That being said, we have that same issue as well. But what does help me is looking back, like you said, John and I were also talking about before you got on, is a year ago today, we were in a storage unit. Like, we were working out of a storage unit.

No building.

No building. Some coworking space for the office side. Our our dispatchers because we wanted to at least look somewhat the part. And then a year later now, we are actually in our own building and we're on track for $5 million. And we went from 3 employees to 15, 16 employees. So, it feels good.

Yeah.

Awesome. And I hope that's the same for you as well.

Awesome. Yeah. I think for me, it's, um, I really want to set my own barrier. I guess the word is like boundaries to Protecting my mental, physical health in pursuit of the grind, in pursuit of that growth. And I think that it's just hard to fit it all in in a 24-hour cycle, you know, you're— and, and things start to suffer. My workouts have suffered the most in the 3 years, and that's just— I am my best self after, you know, incorporating good workouts in my week.

100%.

So I've tried to Figure out ways that I'm still me in pursuit of this big growth or these big goals or all these demands. So, have you found any tricks that are really working for you?

The only trick that has worked for me is 5:00 AM. Well, technically 4:45 AM is when I wake up because I have the same issue, is the gym is a key to my mental health in the morning. And as a dad of 3 under 4 years old, um, much similar to you, we, we had the, the twins right before I bought this business.

Oh my gosh. Wow.

So there's no, uh, there's no rest. There's no rest from it. And so you just have to make the time. Um, but yeah, we found the same thing like that. I was smiling and laughing during your whole, um, having the baby midway through, not, not out of, um, Like, it was a funny thing, but out of the misery loves company in the sense that, like, I know that pain, um, and, and the joy. Like, I don't want to make it— it's not all bad. It's just a lot.

Yes.

Um, and I commend you heavily for that. That's, uh, it's an amazing feat.

Thank you.

Um, yeah. And so to, to bring it back to a topic that we were talking about, so you can And this is more for my own personal— I've looked at businesses that only did government contracts and the people who do that, they love it for whatever reason. They love the moat that surrounds it. They love the ability to grab those large contracts, I guess, because there's pretty low competition. What about getting that government contract didn't you like? Just the large amount of paperwork or was it a low— Nets, or what was the deal there?

On this particular contract, and this is the only one I've had exposure to, so I just don't know that I've had enough to actually speak super intelligently about it. And the job's not done yet. So I think, you know, you're catching me kind of between winning the bid and setting an install date. Um, the company we were contracted through is out of Georgia. I've never met them. I've never seen their face. I jump on video calls. They don't turn on their video. It's a very cold relationship. Like they have had a lot of trouble with this particular project.

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They chose the cheapest asphalt and concrete contractor, and they had to rip up all the concrete. So like this project is literally a year behind schedule, and they've had every sort of issue. Well, in the midst of us bidding, we submitted a change order because we lost a. A very competent person who knew how to run this really specific equipment. So we had to do a change order to say we are no longer equipped to complete this project. We need to bring in another GC to help us with— it's a very specific excavating, like we're digging like 8 feet into the ground to remove old trenches. It's a complex job.

Yeah.

So basically I said it's outside of our scope now. I need to do a change order. Well, they have not wanted to pay for that change order, so they are trying to go around me to find another fencing contractor. In the midst of them doing this, I get calls of, hey, there's this project, I think you should take a look at it. And I'm like, oh, somebody tried to sub it back to you. Exactly. I'm like, oh, I'm very familiar. Yeah, they just don't want to pay my updated number.

Yeah.

But that's been the history on this job. They went with the cheapest vendors and the project is way, you know, going sideways. So my experience has been they pick the cheapest subs. They probably chose me because I was a woman-owned business, and that's important for a lot of government contracts. They don't like my updated number. They're trying to figure out a different solution. There's just been like little warmth around, hey, I know this project is, you know, was supposed to be installed a year ago. Could we pay for stored materials on your lot? Like the amount of materials we have had on our lot is significant, and we got those over a year and a half ago, and there's been like no Little to no communication, just not an enjoyable experience so far. But that could, that could change.

Yeah, I mean, I can definitely understand that. It sounds like they're the— are they actually a GC or are they just a company that wins these government contracts and subs them all out? Because I know, like, from it, from like a supplying standpoint, right, there's a lot of, I guess, suppliers on government contracts that'll get the contract and then go find the product.

Exactly, yep.

Is that what they're doing to you?

Yes, they deal with a lot of defense air, air defense bases, defense Air Force bases around the nation. And to their credit, they've actually said this specific Air Force base in Columbus is the most difficult they've ever worked with. So I think that complexity mixed with the project not going well has been It's been a real challenge for them.

So, yeah, no, that makes sense. That makes a lot more sense to me. Well, hopefully they come through because I know that that can be difficult, especially sitting there on their material, having to store it. Are you guys in a, in a generally safe area where that, where you have no worries of anything disappearing as well?

I think the pipe itself is like 6,000 pounds. So if somebody has the wherewithal to come lift that and haul it away, you would need a tractor semi.

Yeah.

Um, and access to our forklift, which we keep locked. So, um, you know, good on you if you can get through our, get through our locked down chain link. I'm not even mad at Mr. Lutz. Yeah, yeah, no kidding. I'm, I'm wildly impressed. Um, but yeah, it's kind of difficult to steal.

That's neat. So, so what, what are the next steps for you guys moving forward? So you're, you're going ahead and you're, you're focusing on growing your base of Uh, B2B general contractors, large bids. Um, are there any other next big items or big initiatives that you're pushing through in the next year that are going to get you past that $5 million mark?

I think just doing the small things well. I think getting the, you know, growing up market. Like, for instance, this year we grew our average ticket sale so far, and we're only, you know, 4 and a half months in, but we've grown it by $4,500.

That's huge.

So our average ticket sale has just— I know, it is huge, and I'm so glad because it lends to more of that efficiencies. But for Q1, I was really focused on back-of-house stuff, which I do not enjoy doing. So things like we implemented a 401, we're working on our company handbook, it should be done by this Friday, we're doing drug training policy updating. We are doing health insurance renewals, like yuck. I, as a business owner, those are like my four least favorite things. Okay, if I never talked about insurance again, I would be tickled pink. So, but it's important for hiring, and it's important for those back of the house things. So I have been focused on that. So I think we have a good base there now, or should in thirty days. We're going to focus on. I'd like to get a residential, maybe a commission only salesperson in the door.

Nice.

We've invested in something called Arcsight. Even though I say we don't love residential, it still is so critical for our cash flow. So I don't ever see us pulling out of that 100%. But we invested in something called Arcsight where instead of going to somebody's house, drawing up a, you know, estimate, coming back to the office, putting your numbers together and emailing, it literally allows you to real-time draw it out on their plot plan. On their, you know, give them a price in person. They can sign, submit their deposit there so that you can handle objections. Yeah, it's so good.

So we just, we just got a fence in.

Oh, did you? And how was it?

5-foot aluminum fence. Great. They had something very similar. That guy came out with an iPad, walked around our backyard, said, I think you need a gate here. This 4-foot, 5-foot, choose. It auto-grabbed whatever from his price book, and he was able to get my wife's signature on site, day of.

Love it.

Um, and no complaints. They were wonderful. But yes, that's, that's the way to go. That's an awesome, awesome—

Had you ever had a fence installed before?

No.

Was that a real shock? Like, what did it— did you have any surprises or something you didn't consider?

Uh, not really, only because I could see it for the average homeowner. But for, for me, like, I, I could go through and say, I know what your, you know, where your margins are. I know what this is. I know what we want to spend. Um, and I can see the upsell here.

Hmm.

So like, I knew exactly what to expect, um, at least from like a business model standpoint. So it made it really easy. But to help you out with how was the experience other than making it all online versus we had another company come out prior to them, draw it out on paper and do the whole thing. They didn't really give us a price because they didn't, like you said, they didn't have one on them. They ended up emailing it back to us later on. I said, you know, let's just go with these guys there. They have it. It was better. We were able to talk about the previous person that was out there and then move forward quickly. And they came and did a great job. So I can't complain.

Good.

But it was just the the smoothness of the process was taking away any friction. And I respected that from our side, you know, knowing how difficult that is to get to that point.

Yeah, it's probably taken like a good 40 hours to get this software where we want it because the pricing is so intricate on the backend.

Like it has been such a huge lift, but, um, and when you say that, you're referring to like, do they want to go with 2-inch, 2x2 corners, 3x3 corners, 4x4. Yeah. Like all those like intricate little details.

Absolutely. There needs to be a product bundle for every 8-foot section.

Yeah.

Down to the screws. And it is very time-consuming. And so the thing though that I know is gonna be a big lift too is not only the, the friction that you talk about, you know, removing that with the homeowner, which is gonna be amazing, but on the back end when we do staging. So we have a staging process where either we order materials or All of our wood and chain link, you know, is pulled. That list is auto-generated. So hypothetically, our salesman will just double-check it, send it to staging, and it's not an extra step where right now it's literally an extra step. So it's going to be great.

Yeah, there we go.

So I'm really pumped about it.

That's awesome. And so sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off with my, my wonderful singular Fed story. Was there anything else that you guys are pushing forward through?

Yeah. So, okay. So The Q1 was back of house. I need to get on my hiring front foot and get some field installers in here. One of the things that we've never done up until literally 2 weeks ago is I wouldn't let a subcontractor— we typically are majority W-2 self-perform fence work.

Mm-hmm.

However, about a year ago, I started doing— a year or 2 ago, I kind of forget the timeframes now. A really amazing residential subcontractor crew. They are phenomenal. They're super customer service focused. They're great, and we've had a really good success run with them. I have never let a subcontractor group touch commercial because it's just too important for our business, and I wouldn't let it go. But our schedule got so far behind recently. that I was introduced to a couple new subcontractors that can help us out in the commercial space. And it's fresh.

Yeah.

Um, there's some like differences of philosophy and culture that I can tell like need ironed out. Um, but overall excited to where that growth happens to help free us up to then go sell more. Because, um, if you say you're 8 to 12 weeks backed up, like that's just not, you know, people don't like to hear that. So We want to be a bit more accommodating and nimble. So that's a big focus.

Okay. I could see, I could definitely see that. Yeah, I have no comments. We, we're, we're in the same spot as we hate giving work away to subcontractors, but at the same time, if we back up too far, there's, especially in the summer, right? We can't hire them, everybody in the winter and keep 'em on all year round. So we do rely on subcontractors for very heavy Um, very heavy times of the year where we need extra install labor.

And you don't like to use them because they're costly or it provides a recall?

It's actually cheaper for us to do. Um, it's— there's no control over quality. So, uh, yeah, exactly. So, you know, we had last year when we got into it, I ended up having to spend, uh, $3,000 fixing somebody's 6,000-square-foot mansion Because they forgot to put the screws in on the evaporator coil. It fell off and then leaked water into their whole house.

Oh boy.

Oh boy. Yeah. So those are the kind of quality issues, and we do spot checks. We'll come in on them and take a look and say, hey, well, this isn't right. This isn't right. Managers are really good at that. But at the end of the day, your name is tied to everything they do.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

And so I don't care if they're wearing your shirt, not wearing your shirt, driving our vans, not driving our vans, or Logos on them. Um, like, we need the ability to make sure that they're doing quality work at all times.

Absolutely.

But, um, we do have a group that, that we had to, you know, like you said, cultural differences, quality differences, uh, expectations are set, and then they're able to run.

Yeah.

Um, and so we keep it really tight, but, um, the ones who do, they get paid very well and they do a good job.

Yeah, I think that's the name of the game. I mean, especially being Um, a woman, like I've had subcontractors call me sweetie. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not your sweetie. You know, we're talking about a fence, you know? And I'm like, this just doesn't— like, I know that maybe historically you use those words out of a term of endearment, but like, we're just here doing a business deal.

This is professional.

Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly.

Um, so much like John. A lot of our management team is actually women too. Our head saleswoman is a woman. Our head salesperson is a woman. And so, she has those problems all the time. And I just say, I'm so sorry that you guys have to go through this. It is, it's definitely something being a woman in the trades. There's very few and far between, but I think you all do a very good job. So, I commend you.

It's not an offensive thing. It's just a, I think you're misreading the room thing, you know, but that's fine. So, but the, the thing that I am very hell-bent on is customer communication. And if we say, hey, Mr. Customer, you are scheduled for Wednesday, like come hell or high water, I'm going to try to beat that or meet that timeframe so that there's no disappointment because you would not believe, especially in residential, If they think you're coming out on Wednesday, like they've called off, they've called off their work. They've sent their, you know, daughter to school through separate communication because they want to be there. So it is disruptive if we don't show up when we say, and it's a small thing, but like not done well, I've seen it just turn a project sideways. Um, so that's, that's important to us and we got to get that right with our subcontractors.

Yeah. And, and so you're moving those subcontractors into commercial. That's a big move for this year to kind of—

2 different groups. So we're keeping our residential, um, our residential crew focused on residential, but 2 different, um, separate LLCs. They have had history working for other fencing contractors around the state. And honestly, when he was referred to me, this gentleman was referred to me It, this, uh, one of our estimators who's been in fencing for 30, 40 years said he may be one of the best at what he does.

Oh, that's awesome.

Yeah, like he is phenomenal. Um, but you're gonna have some of these other quirks and I want you to be aware of 'em kind of thing. So, you know, uh, to be clear is to be kind is my motto. So I, I would never want a team member or a subcontractor wondering, is Cassie happy with me? Am I meeting expectations? Like, that all has to be addressed swiftly, in my opinion.

Awesome. Well, uh, we are at time. I, I think we lost John permanently. If you guys haven't heard, uh, you're only hearing my voice right now. It's because, uh, John had a code red emergency midway through or towards the end. Um, but Cassi, we really appreciate you coming on today. It's great. I went back and listened to the episode. I was so excited because you and I are very much on the same path with a lot of the same problems. And it's really neat to kind of see this growth in other people that were at a similar spot. And we're really excited to see that move into the future. So, I appreciate you coming on today. Where can people find you if they want to hear more?

Oh, boy.

Are you on the Twitter?

I am on the Twitter, but I am not very active. So my favorite thing is when Peter Lohmann likes to screenshot things on Twitter and then text it to me because he knows I'm going to miss it. That's how you know you're like not on Twitter, but once a quarter. You can find me on Twitter at Cassie Meekamp. Do not be offended if I do not respond there immediately, but best way is email cassie@bowdenfence.com. And that is Yeah, C-A-S-S-I, no E. Awesome.

Well, thanks, Cassi. I appreciate it. And for all of our listeners, a quick reminder, we have our Breaking 5 Million Camp June 4th through the 6th. I'd love to see you there. Cassi was actually there last time. I'm sure she could say some nice things about us.

Yeah, it was wonderful.

Awesome.

I actually would like to do a plug for that. Could I?

Yeah, go for it.

Okay, I thought it was brilliant and really Amazing telling that on the flywheel. I know everybody loves to talk about marketing and that's just such like a yummy topic that you could go through all day long. But when you did the flywheel, I hope I'm not spilling any beans, but you, you go through all of the core business operations and then you landed on marketing as a tail end of the workshop. It was very well done. I love that approach. So helpful. Um, yeah, I just think there is, we're better together as owners and that was such a great example of that.

Yeah, no, it, it, it's been wonderful to see that afterward too. Kind of everybody in the, uh, we've said it before, we'll say it again, the emails and then now moving into the Facebook group is we're really trying to build that community around, uh, like-minded owners at the like situations and spots and, and, uh, revenue goals that they're in currently. So join us there June 4th through the 6th. Grab your tickets at ownedandoperated.com. Go follow us on our newsletter, see your updates from John, or check us out on Twitter @theHVACJack and Wilson Companies. Uh, thank you all for listening, and, uh, thanks Cassie. We appreciate you stopping by.

Thank you, John and Jack.

Thanks for tuning in to Owned and Operated, the podcast for home service entrepreneurs. If you enjoyed today's episode, please hit the like button and subscribe to the Podcast. If you have any questions or topics you'd like us to cover, feel free to reach out. You can find me on Twitter at @WilsonCompanies. I'll see you next time.