Fundamentals of Drain Cleaning & Mainline Sewers: CertainPath’s Technical & Sales Training Delivering Big Results with Missy Jones

Welcome to The Successful Contractor powered by CertainPath, a show for residential contractors about residential contractors. We chronicle business journeys, share insights, and celebrate successes in this wonderful industry. I'm your host, Bob Houchin. For more information on how CertainPath can put your contracting company on a certain path to success, visit our website, www.mycertainpath.com. I hope you enjoy today's show and take away a nugget or two. Missy, thank you so much for being on the show today. For those who haven't had the pleasure of meeting you at expo or training, could you share with everyone your name, what your title is with CertainPath, and what you do?

Hey, Bob, thanks for having me on. My name is Missy Jones and I am a coach and facilitator for electrical, plumbing, and HVAC here at CertainPath. And love what I do.

You're a very busy person too. I feel like you're on the road, you're teaching, you're doing something. You're leaving for Eagles tomorrow, which is our event for our larger members. And you got some trainings coming up as well beyond the drain cleaning, which we're going to get into. Kind of share with everyone what you're doing.

So next week we have a Developing Winning Trainers class. So it's kind of a Let's train the trainer to help owners, managers become effective trainers within their organizations, right? Deliver that information. So that's a 2-day class. It's one of my most favorite classes. It's really cool. It's lots of engagement, lots of aha moments and so forth like that.

Yeah.

What else do I have going on? I've got an online Service Essentials coming up. As well as a live telephone and dispatching for profits class coming up in the beginning of April. And then we'll have a drain cleaning class coming up in the middle of April as well.

Lots.

And that's just mine. There's so much other training going on right now too. So we are just laying it down. Really busy. It's great.

Yeah, it's nice now with the ability to do online courses, it expands. How much you know opportunity, how much there is training is available available for folks. We're not. I know we've got it for people that don't know. We've got a new building and a larger training room. I guess it'd be split in two. I don't know that we've actually tried that just yet, but oh yeah, yeah, lots of training. Yeah, we. I'll see there you go.

Oh yeah, you can't help. You know I'm loud and you can't hear me on the other side of the room, so we know it's really effective.

I'm gonna say yeah, that's right. That's good.

Good.

That's great. Well, cool stuff. Well, I'm excited to talk to you about a class that was really your baby. I guess it's coming up on almost a year old, right? Which blows me away. But you spent so much time building this out with a great member we'll mention in a minute, but you pushed for it, nurtured it, made it happen. Super impressive. All the training, which I went through all the training materials, I guess it was last week just to reacclimate myself because it's been a long time since I looked at it. My goodness, this is so good. Like I am not technical at all. I'm like, oh, I kind of get this now. But anyways, tell everyone what I'm talking about. What's the name of this class that I'm referencing?

So it's Fundamentals of Drain Cleaning, and we are doing. We do this class not at out of headquarters, if you will, the home office, but we actually do so out of a member's location. It makes for the right environment for the reason of we. Do some technical actually in this particular class. And you know, we are soft skills, we're business model and so forth. So Larry's facility is actually an old Meals on Wheels commercial kitchen. So he has drains and so forth like that, that we can create all kinds of scenarios. So it's a 2-day class. We You don't sit in class one day and then you're working technical the next day. We keep that attention varied. So we'll learn a little bit and then we'll go out and we'll put our hands on it, you know, out technical-wise and work all kinds of clogs, different scenarios, different from handhelds to augers to cables to sectionals. We do hydrojetting on different sizes. We descale with chain knockers and flex shaft. We even reline, do a reline on the cast iron pipe. So you get so much exposure. It's really cool.

We love it.

Yeah, it's fun.

Yeah. What? So yeah, let's, let's shout out to our member, kind of share who that individual is that helped you put together and host it now for us.

Yep. So that's Larry Shoemaker and he's out of Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Deluxe Plumbing and Heating is his establishment and it wouldn't be possible without his assistance. And he has 2 gentlemen that help facilitate it as well out there so we can work in small little units so everybody has hands-on. And Bob and Travis do a great job. Great job.

Yeah, Larry's just a super guy.

He's—

I've worked with him for expo presentations. He's just so committed to the industry and helping other people. He's got a— he's got a great success story himself. So it's— it's super cool. It's just very exciting. So what kind of people are going to this class? Like, who's the ideal candidate?

Really, it's whether you're a veteran Drain cleaner, plumber, or you're just starting out. I mean, we start at a high level and very quickly and strappingly get down into the mechanics of it. So it's neat because when we have veterans in the class, they are teaching, kind of taking on the technical side some of the younger, less experienced, so to speak. under their wings, sharing best practices, you know, getting your hands closer to your pipe and so forth so you can control your cable and, you know, safety and stuff like that. It's really cool to see everybody lean in. And then our veterans even take away some tidbits as well. So it's nice.

Sure. I mean, yeah, I mean, we always say, you know, it doesn't matter how many times you do the same training, you'll always pick up something new, right?

Yeah. And that's the technical side.

Yeah.

So, sorry, on the book side of it, because the book is new, the book is now laid out to where it allows you to engage that customer, control the narrative, build up of, here's the problem, here's what you have, this is your existing, Here's all of those reinforcements that go with that. What are you looking for in your experience or, you know, your solution? And then we can start talking about what does that final pricing options look like for them. So it is an engaged buildup picture book helping the technician communicate in layman's terms to that customer And keep them engaged and informed all the way along in the process. So, our veterans love it, and they like the new narrative. So, they take away from that class too.

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We're also going to talk about the drain cleaning process, the service call process, and, and how to sell main sewer lines. So hang with me. But I do want to just— I want to highlight this class because it's so cool and you guys put so much time into it. Uh, let's talk about a little bit more on the, on the technical side, that day 1. Yeah.

What are you going to cover in that day 1?

I was looking through the materials and I was just really impressed with how much emphasis was put on safety. Why was that? Why was that a priority upfront to dig into that?

You know, far too often what we see when technicians are going in and, you know, doing drain cleaning and so forth, you are dealing with a Category 3 most of the time. Water, and that is waste. And waste houses all kinds of bacteria and illness. And if we're not wearing gloves, I mean, imagine if you're coming in contact with a dirty cable in your hand and you've got a cut on your hand, you're not even wearing gloves. Could you get something like typhoid fever? Absolutely, you could get worse than that. So, you know, I'm a big person. I think a lot of people overlook the importance of drain cleaning, and drain cleaning is really important. And I believe that you should command that professionalism that you deserve in drain cleaning because it is a really yucky part of our job, but it's also very lucrative. So Yes. Look the part. Command the importance that it is in a homeowner's house. And, you know, really what you're truly up against. So not just going in there in your uniform, go in there in your uniform. If you're— put your face shield on so you're protecting yourself. Some people will get in Tyvek suits, you know. I mean, it all depends on what you're working on, but keep yourself safe. And it is Protecting a homeowner's house as well.

Right, right. I thought that was just really impressive because you know we could just dig into all the technical and then the communication stuff. But you set I think you set the tone that this is something you want to protect yourself because take it serious reasons. Yeah, for sure. I was also really impressed with all the different types of equipment. Like you talked about it a minute ago, but you're the kids or the kids, the students. They're identifying pipe types and all the tools, the locators, the cameras. How long did you and Larry work to figure all that out? I mean, just for people to get an idea. I have an idea, but just let everyone know how much time you guys invested in that.

It took about a year. We did, even from the first launch of the first class, we still, you know, you don't know what you don't know until you put it in motion. And I would say the first 2 classes, it allowed us to work out some of the bumps see, hey, here's some other things that we could do that would really help impact the class when we're talking technical. And then even a little changing and an addition of a page or 2 in the price guide to help make sure that we are delivering a smooth narrative. So it took a year to get it published. And then it took another, I'd say, 2 classes to really Perfect it.

Yeah, very good. Very good. Now, day 2 is all communication and our drain service replacement model. It's great to have all these tools, these books, but you got to know how to use them, how to talk to a homeowner about them.

And right.

And within it, there's 7 steps to our drain cleaning model. We're not going to share those exactly because you got to be a member, right? You got to be a member. You got to go to the class. But I do want to talk about some, some of the fundamentals. And in all of our classes, this one as well, we talk about establishing your credibility as a technician as soon as you get to the home. What are a few ways technicians should be doing that and why?

So, you know, when we think about ourselves as a customer, we have universal needs. And some of those universal needs that we all want as a customer is, am I being treated fairly? Am I getting the same price that everybody else is? Are you going to fix it right the first time? Can I trust you? Those types of questions that we have that we may not always ask because people are generally non-confrontational by nature, right?

Yeah.

So we want to be able to comfortably, proactively answer those questions that customers will have so we don't have to put them in a situation to wonder. So if we provide our credibility of, Why I'm qualified to work in your house here today and for you to spend your hard-earned money with me. I'm going to put it out there and tell you I'm your best candidate and here's why.

Yeah. Yeah.

And all of a sudden, the shoulders start to— okay, I'm not— you know, maybe the tension's relieved a little bit. So yeah, absolutely critical part, part of the experience. Let's talk about setting expectations. That's the next big step that's going to take us to the new drain guide. Right. So the first couple of pages of it Talk about our commitment to you and today's service experience. Why are those 2 pages so important? What do they do?

Well, I mean, in a sense, they reinforce that customer's decision from the very beginning of the customer's experience, your company experience that you're providing. And that starts with marketing. And those are promises that we make. Those are items that help set us apart from our competition and make us who we are. As an organization, and people align themselves with, do business with like organizations or like people. And so that starts in your marketing, and then that rolls over into that phone experience and helping that customer determine whether or not they want to book a call with us and feel confident that they've chosen the right company. So. Setting expectations of who we are and the promises that we provide, and then resetting those expectations and managing them throughout that customer's entire service visit with us is really critical to control that narrative. So we provide that great level of service each and every time.

I feel like it's real for a homeowner. It's reassuring as well. You're like, oh, so this is how this is going to happen. We've never had to deal with drain cleaning or even Worse is we'll get into if we talk about mainline placement. You know, you're like, I just feel like, you know, information is power. It's reassuring. Like, okay, at least I see this guy isn't just coming in and going to throw a big number at me. So I think that's— those pages really help set the tone so very well. The next couple of pages help people understand what could be going underneath the ground, because unless you're in this stuff, you have no idea. You know, you just don't think about it, right? It's not— it's not our world. So maybe share what those two— that 2-page spread is, what it's meant to do, kind of fill everyone in.

So those 2 pages really kind of helps start the narrative of, hey, here's typically what can cause some of your problems that you're experiencing here today. Here's different reasons why this can happen. And so we share that with them. We share that most people in a sense are visual in nature. So it's not enough just to hear what somebody is explaining, especially if it's something that is, yeah, I know I have a clog. You're telling me it's going to be X number of dollars to take care of it, right? How do I even know that you said you're really going to do what you're going to do? That's in some ways is a leap of faith, but it's also why we recommend certain equipment to be used during inspections and stuff like that for that engagement. You know, again, creating, educating that customer about what's going on in their house, showing them has a much further buy-in as well as reinforcement to the recommendations that you're making. It builds trust. And so when they can understand and see what's going on, they'll move forward with you in the buying process. If they're confident.

Very good. Yeah, we also in the class talk about the value of a camera. Just, you know, why is that camera so important? Let's get— let's, let's cover that first of all.

So that's your eyes, right? And if you're making recommendations to the customer and you need them to understand really what's going on down there in that pipe and they don't understand, it's hard to describe that. And when you can show it to them, and engage them in it and say, do you see that? And they're like, oh, wow, that's why we have a blockage. And it's not always about a soft blockage. There's hard blockages too. And there's breaks and there's bellies. We've got to teach them.

Yeah, it's hard to argue with the visual. That's right. It's great. Got a giant root right there. It's like, I'm not lying to you, lady. It's there. My next question is going to be controversial, but I have to ask. What's your stance on charging for the camera versus not charging it?

So here's my stance. If somebody calls in and they say, hey, I need somebody to come out and camera my lines, that is something that they are asking for. And I'll charge them for that, right?

That makes sense.

The rest of the time, if I'm out doing drain cleaning and I'm educating my customer, that is a tool that sits on my truck and it can be best used to assist me in getting to the root of the cause of the problem for that customer quickly, as well as a customer being confident in the recommendations that I'm making because they can clearly see the problem. So I'm going to use it as a tool on those jobs. I'm not going to charge for that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How, in your experience, what, what percentage of techs are doing the camera versus they, they set the lead for a salesperson or an advisor to come behind them? Is it— do you have a mixture or—

Yeah, certainly you do. You know, that's multifaceted. You may have, you know, well, trained apprentices performing drain cleaning because you don't have to have a license. But there can be a turning point when we get talking about something like a mainline replacement. So that could be we've got to either turn that over to somebody else in the organization that can go in, do that assessment, see if trenching or trenchless is the better scenario for them. Job cost it and so forth. There's— that is growing in our industry, right? Flipping those leads over.

Yes.

And then there's, you know, others. Not everybody has cameras on their trucks, right? So it— you need to have, I would say, a dedicated truck or 2 depending on the size of your organization They need to be well-equipped out. And then based on if you have to have licenses in your state for plumbing or not, where that all kind of originates depends on how you'll structure your plumbing technicians versus drain cleaning technicians, or you'll have techs that just do both. It all just kind of depends on organization.

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In the book, I know there's, there's like add-on recommendations. So when should the technician be talking about those with the homeowner? At what point?

So it, it can actually go happen before or after actually removing the blockage. Sometimes we might look at an add-on as, hey, you've got an old trap in the house and And I can't get my cable through it, I need to bypass it, right? So there's an add-on. Talking about a chemical maintenance after we've removed an issue in the line, then the most common thing in any trade going into a residential house is a lack of maintenance. And so being able to offer maintenance product behind that to help keep scale, scum and stuff at bay, you know, there's all kinds of different add-ons and each house is different. Each situation is a little different, but you'll have your common add-ons for drain cleaning.

I like how they're all laid out really nicely. So again, it's not like we're magic dust where we're selling and not doing, you know, it's like this is a guide, it's a national guide. That that drain cleaner is used across the country. This is this is stuff that's legitimate.

Yep.

Let's talk. Let's talk. Why is it so important to provide options to customers when it comes to restoring flow?

Well, Bob, you don't like being told what to do. I don't like being told.

That's true. You know that. Yeah. Right.

So think about it this way: In a situation where the customer has very little control. over being able to rectify the situation themselves because they don't have the skill sets, they don't have the equipment, they don't know how to do that. Giving a customer back a sense of control, one of those ways that we do that is providing options so they can figure out how they wanna proceed, what works best for their family, their budget, and so forth like that. Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I love it. It's this great little— I don't call it like psychological trick, but it is. It's nice, you know, and we feel so vulnerable in that moment. Okay, well, I at least get to make this decision, right? When are we using this new repair versus replace test? Can you kind of give people some insight into it? I think it's brilliant and it really helps the homeowner make a better, more informed decision.

Right. So our repair versus replace, what we're talking about there is our Main sewer line, right? So in the event that the customer is having problems in their home and so forth, and we find that the true underlying problem is going to originate out there, so to speak, or terminate out there, it can create all kinds of problems for you. And so you have the option to be able to go in, depending on the problem, to do a spot repair. Or you can look at something like a long-term repair, which would not repair but to replace the entire line. Yes, it is an investment, but there's in a sense the calculator that we have that'll look at different items to go in and assess the current condition of the drain line. So we can look at condition, age, maybe the materials that was used, and so forth. Lots of Pieces that we fill in and check out in our drain book for that particular customer. Yeah, then we're able to take that analysis, go back and pull them in in a sense of okay, here's what we're seeing. Here's the layup of the condition of what you've got going on. Let's talk about does it really make sense to repair or replace? And based on where this falls. Your best recommendation would be X, right? So it's it's two visual engaged pieces. You can write right there in the book and make all of your connections for that customer. Again, seeing is believing. Making those connections—it just really helps them sort through the process and what's going to be best for them in their house. I love it.

We have something similar in the HVAC realm, a similar test. And I think it's so— it's so— it's a nice tool because it educates homeowners because maybe somebody came in before, another company said, oh, we can do a spot replacement of that and it's only going to cost X and it's way lower than that whole replacement. But and so all people think about is money in that minute. But if you sit and go, okay, you know, Ms. Jones, You know, yeah, it's it's cheaper right now. But if that pipe is degraded as we're telling you it is, you're going to have to do we're ripping up your yard again. It's you're going to have to call someone out again. It's causing all this inconvenience, all these issues. Let's just get it done now, right? But you don't think if no one tells you that and educates you about what could happen, and that tool I think is great for that, right? And they can you can see it actually makes more financial sense just to get it all. Knocked out right now, so I love it. I wanted to ask you about it to highlight it. Share with everyone how the guide also educates people about bursting and relining because nobody knows what that stuff is in normal world. I know until I got in this industry, I'm like, what? You know, I know I knew you replace you could replace the pipe or the sewer line rather, but I didn't realize there's these these other nifty tools. So kind of explain to the technical people watching this how. and educates homeowners on what those, what those are.

Right. So when we're talking about things like mainline replacements, you've got 2 methodologies about how you can go about it. You can trench it so you can excavate. And then there's other times where you can burst and pull a bursting head through without having to dig up the entire yard, or you can Reline what's existing in there to provide you a lifetime warranty and so forth. It gives you different options. It's not, you know, of all 3 of those, it varies. Excavation is not always the right answer every single time on jobs, nor could be relining on every single job. So having the different options for your customers in that sense as well. Here's how we can go about taking care of your problem. We want to do it with as minimal disturbance as we can, right? Of their yard being torn up and what it's going to look like during and after and all of that stuff.

Yeah, for sure. Driveways, save driveways, you know, retaining walls, all sorts of things that can be disrupted. So it saves all those expensive things. Yeah, I love the guide. Also establishes industry-best guarantees. And, you know, I know a lot of people out there go, well, my word is, is, you know, you can say I stand by my word, but there's something about guarantees being written, right? So kind of share why those, those are so important.

Warranties and guarantees, you know, they remove the risk of doing business with you. It increases buyer confidence if they know that you're going to make those promises. Stand behind it, you know what your online reputation is, as well as, you know, how do you rank in Google? What are your reviews and your customers saying about you? To know that they're going to invest maybe in a really long-term solution because they're in their forever home. It's nice to know that what those true guarantees are, what they mean, we know that there are great and then that there are little— some in our industry that give us a bad stereotype, right, that we have to constantly overcome. So, you know, guarantees and warranties are really important when you're talking big ticket jobs.

For sure. For sure. Now, all these tools are customizable. People, you know, members get access to those and they can— and they can work with you and the other coaches on, on making them just What they want, but a big part of that is is getting make sure all these things are priced properly. How how much do you work with members on ensuring their their price for you know profitability and on every type of job?

So when we're talking about jobs like we're doing anything from you know cabling to jetting to descaling, those are simple. Those are fixed pricing. You've got a We get your price right in the correct book. When we're talking about things like relining, bursting, even excavation, we get really personalized. We'll help job cost what you're currently doing because the soil in Texas is a whole lot different than the soil up in Boston, right? Or the depth that you have to go down to replace soil types and so forth. So there's a lot that goes into that pricing. But we do, we work with you to get that all personalized for your business.

For sure. You got to make sure you, you're going to shell out all this money for all this, this great equipment. You got to make sure you're getting paid for it.

That's right.

Those were the guys. But you know, we see it all, you guys, we see it all the time, right? People that do great work and They just don't brace themselves right. And so it's the biggest issue in our industry.

Well, what you're explaining is lucrative.

Oh, very much so. Very much so. I know a lot of people go, oh, the tool, it's all expensive, all the equipment to get good, but you make it back pretty fast. You make it back pretty fast. Then if you take our class, you'll make it back even faster.

That's right.

That's right. That's right. So what's the response been? I mean, like you said, you've had it, we've had it rolling for a year. I guess we have about, what, once a quarter or something like that? How have people been taking to it and using it in the field?

So great feedback. They love the class. They promote it. They're bringing other team members through. They're talking about it to each other. Even our new drain cleaning books, there's 2 different versions because we know that not every company Does mainline replacements and drain cleaning, so that book will take them so far. They may flip that work over to somebody else in their local industry because they just don't have that bandwidth. But if it's a company that does in-house excavation and bursting and relining, then there's an extension to that book which talks all about your replacements and the different kinds. So being able to even have that type of selection back and forth, depending on personalization of your business, they like it a lot and they love just the selling system of the book.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was going to say, what ultimately do you hope people gain by going to the class? What was your goal in starting this crazy process, I guess now 2 years ago?

You know what? I want them to Two-sided to inform the customer, visually engage that customer and educate them about what's going on. Because it's really easy to take advantage of people in drain cleaning and not do what you say you're going to do. But if you use that visual reinforcement and your camera time and time again, that builds a trusting relationship. Look, look where you're at, and then you can show them the after. I did what I said I was going to do. There's no question. Did he really do it right? So one of that, yeah, is to protect the customer. The other side of that is the technician to understand the true importance, the revenue that they can actually generate, a great living that they can do in drain cleaning. And, you know, it's not just say, I'm going to go out there and Shove a cable down the line, and it's just a little dinky job. It's not. Drain cleaning is is a huge industry, and I think that it needs to be treated in a sense of more respect, even in the way that we approach the job. Yeah, I love it.

And and you know, we also I didn't mention you get the guide when you go to the class. You also get that reinforcement book, you know, the learner's guide, so you can use that as. Training resource, because obviously 2 days, there's a lot of information getting thrown at you. You're going to retain only so much right away. But having that, I think it's— and it's thick. I don't know how many pages that thing is. I mean, you'll get a workout picking it up. So there's lots of value.

Too much.

No, no. But it's laid out very well. It's not, you know, you're not reading like a dictionary. It's a lot of pictures, a lot of good stuff in there. They did a great job with it. So let's see, the next class is what, coming up in April, in July? I'm sure they'll sell out. How many open— how many people typically sit in a class?

So we keep the class to 24 people only. And we do that so we can break them up into 3 groups. Yeah, as they work different stations. So they're getting their hands on all of the different types of equipment. They're working through all the different types of clogs. They're all jetting, they're all descaling. They are working on relining. They get their hands on it, and they they have time to spend and work through the pain points of getting around corners and bends and stuff like that, and different types of materials. So yeah, we want to keep it small so we can really show them the value and let them have the place where they can. ask all the questions and get help and work through best practices.

Sure. I'm sure we could probably get 100 people there, but you're not going to get the same experience. So. Right. That's great. Good stuff. Well, Missy, thank you so much for all your time. This is enjoyable. I wanted to highlight this, this class and all the hard work you did. I thought I was just so impressed. So appreciate you educating everyone and safe travels to Eagles. I look forward to seeing you sometime soon.

My pleasure. Thanks, Bob. Appreciate you.

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