R-410A to R-454B: Preparing for the HVAC Refrigerant Change with Devoe Ward of Trane Technologies

Welcome to Successful Contractor powered by CertainPath, a show for residential contractors about residential contractors. We chronicle business journeys, share insights, and celebrate successes in this wonderful industry. I'm your host, Bob Houchin. For more information on how CertainPath can put your contracting company on a certain path to success, visit our website, www.mycertainpath.com. I hope you enjoy today's show and take away a nugget or two. DeVoe, thank you so much for being here. Greatly appreciate it. For members that haven't met you at an expo or EP, can you share with everyone your name and who you work for?

My name is DeVoe Ward. I'm a strategic account executive and I work for Trane Technologies representing both the Trane and American Standard Heating and Air Conditioning brands.

Very good. And so what does that mean when you're in that role? What do you do essentially?

In essence, I just manage the relationship between CertainPath and Trane Technologies.

Yeah.

Uh, not only with CertainPath, but with other programs as well.

Yeah.

Uh, and we're brand agnostic. We don't pick one versus the other. We represent both. We make both.

Yeah.

So whatever brand is of your liking, that's the brand we sell, we offer to you.

I like it. How long have you guys been partners with CertainPath?

We partnered in 2022.

'22. Okay.

Uh, but the contract was inked in '23, so we started supporting CertainPath in 2023.

Okay.

And we plan on doing that for years to come.

I love it. Do you know how many members you work with approximately?

Oh, that's a, ah, that's a trick question, right? Yes, sir. Uh, the, it grows, it grows daily, right? Because it's up to the member if they want to offer our brand, right? So how it works today, a member would submit a PPCF form to us, which tells us that they are now buying from one of our distributor partners.

Okay.

That is my cue to opt them into our rebate program. Okay. So that's how we know. Who we're partnering with. But then it, more importantly, it tells us to reach out to our distributors and start requesting that sales data from them.

Okay. Very good. We're talking today cuz there's a whole lot of change coming in the HVAC world here soon. And, um, wanna get into that. But before we dig into all of that, I love to learn people's backgrounds. I think it's fascinating. Uh, how did you get into this space?

Oh, funny story. I graduated from college with a degree in business. Took my first job as a sales rep, uh, representing the Stanley brand.

Okay.

Uh, actually the Husky brand for Home Depot.

Oh, okay.

Um, did that and went, went to work for Emerson as a district manager. Uh, got into management piece and managed sales reps and did that until Home Depot in essence put us outta business. When I say put us outta business, the sales support team that Emerson Store Support had created to support Home Depot was no longer necessary. Okay. Because Home Depot had created their own internal sales team. Okay. Um, so at that point I went into education, was working as a counselor, uh, at an at RISD High School, did that for a couple years.

How'd you, how'd you get into that?

Well, my, my family, a family of educators. Uh, yeah, my dad was a principal, my mom was a teacher. Uh, at some point in time, my dad took a promotion and became the superintendent of a charter school in Texas called Texans Can Academy.

Okay.

Um, at that time it was, it was literally kind of coincidental, but he got his role. I had just lost my role and he was like, hey, I've got a position if you're thinking you need something.

And yeah.

You know, I thought it would be neat to work with my father 'cause I admired him so much. And yeah, so I worked at one of his campuses, uh, until he decided that he was retiring.

Okay.

Uh, and at that point, you know, I started looking back for work in the corporate sector.

Yeah.

And at that moment in time, Trane had a SPOC position for Home Depot. So my past relationship with Home Depot, uh, is what got me into the role at Trane.

Sure.

And then just throughout time, I've matured and kind of went into different roles within the organization.

Yeah.

So I went from SPOC to territory manager, then to business development manager, then to finally working here in the strategic accounts team. Yeah.

Why do you enjoy working with contractors? You've been doing it for so long.

It, it's easy, uh, to a certain degree. Um, because you're always teaching and educating.

Yeah.

Uh, one thing that Trane prides itself on is, is the intentional sales process, right? You, you wanna inform them of something, you wanna develop them, and then you wanna be responsive to their needs.

Yeah.

So you're always doing one of those 3. Uh, if not, you're doing all 3 of 'em.

Yeah.

And no, in no particular order. Uh, some calls it may be all responsive. You're putting out fires. Some other calls it may be all developmental.

Okay.

Uh, some it may be a combination of all 3, right? That's a good call if you hit all 3 of them at the same time. Sure. Sure. Uh, but just a passion for, for teaching and educating, uh, it's kind of in my blood. I guess I have my parents, my family. I'm, I come from a long line of educators.

Yeah.

Uh, so it was real easy for me to take on that role.

Yeah.

Uh, then plus I've got little kids at home, so I'm always having to teach them something.

So yeah.

It's just natural for me.

I think the best salespeople are good educators. They don't push. They let, let me help you understand what's going on.

Right.

I think, do you find that to be the same case?

I agree. And, and not all cases are your contractors listening or are they receiving the message that you're giving them?

Yeah, sure.

Um, so you have to be patient and you just have to understand that you've gotta meet them at their time of need.

Yeah. Very good. All right, let's, let's dig in a little bit. AMACT came in, came, is coming, coming forward here. 410A is getting phased out. Uh, R32, R454B, I have to look at it because I don't live in this world day to day. I'll be honest. I'm on more of the business side. They're coming in. Um, what does this mean for you guys at Trane American Standard?

So in theory, it doesn't mean anything.

Yeah.

Um, when I say that, I'm saying this, we, we experience changes within the industry all the time, right? We went through a change in 2010 when we transitioned from R-22 refrigerant, right, to 410A.

I remember that.

So, you know, that was, it seemed like forever ago.

Yeah.

But it is upon us again. So from a manufacturer standpoint, tooling, uh, additional resources that need to be added to the equipment. But from a production piece, we're still cranking out units. So it's, it's minimal. It's more educating users, uh, and installers on the subtle differences. Uh, unlike like R-22 and 410A, higher head pressures, you know, some operate— 410A operate under higher head pressure, kind of similar with 454, but there is no changing. There's no interoperability. You can't, you won't be able to use both. Yeah. It's one or the other. So there won't be a mixture with this process.

Are you guys, I'm sure you have an education team that goes out or is that you in the field, Helsen?

No. So technically our Distributors and field service representatives, the FSR, is the key cog to a lot of stuff. Those are the technical trainers that train the distributors' sales teams or their technicians on whether it's troubleshooting, whatever it may be.

Yeah.

So they have training teams that go out and put on these classes for 454B.

Right.

454 is the, the refrigerant of choice for trained technologies. Okay. Yeah.

Very good. But they're gonna be real busy, it sounds like, real soon.

Well, in theory, we stay busy.

Yeah.

But because the rule, the rule states all manufacturers can continue to manufacture 410A until 12/31/2024, but we can sell 410A split systems through 12/31/2025. And if it's a package unit, a residential style package unit, We've actually got 3 years of sell-through on those items.

Okay.

Um, so what does that mean? That means our distributor partners may be taking on more inventory to support the need for 410A.

Right.

Uh, with Trane, we do have company-owned distribution and we have independent distribution as well.

Right.

Uh, I look at our distribution maps, Trane and American Standard. Trane is roughly 50/50. American Standard is 100%. Independent wholesale distribution. Okay. Um, so in their case, um, it could be, uh, a range, right? Some distributors may be gearing up, some distributors may be cutting off. It's just, it varies on where those distributors and the decisions they make.

Is this new refrigerant gonna be more expensive for, for contractors and obviously homeowners as a result?

If I think how R-22 impacted 410A.

Yeah.

I would say over the long run, 454 will probably be less expensive.

Okay.

But if you're buying it current state, yeah, I guarantee you distributors are probably having fire sales on 410A. So trying to encourage, you know, stocking up and things of that nature. So today 410A may be less expensive than 454, but over time, I guarantee you 454 will be much less expensive than 410A.

That makes sense. That makes sense. This new refrigerant's a little more Uh, fire, you know, it's a little, it's a little more hazardous, right?

Correct.

So what, what's, how do you guys keep an eye on that? Make sure it's safe? You know, that's just a component I—

So from a technical testing standpoint, all of the, uh, and I'm gonna speak for all, uh, OEMs at that point, we're, we're all following the same guidelines.

Yeah.

The testing guidelines. Uh, and when I think of H2L, that's the, the naming of the, whether it's low or high in terms of, uh, flammability.

Yeah.

410A really has none, but A2L, which is what R-32 and 454B are, really, really low. Matter of fact, it's lower than hairspray or cooking oil.

Oh, really?

So it takes a lot. But what we don't want to happen is if there was a leak, that refrigerant starts pooling, then it could, it could potentially offer the ability for, for an ignition. Think about the best thing you've learned on this podcast.

Or any podcast ever. Now, on a scale of one to ten, how life-changing was it? Did it change whether you could take vacations or where you vacation? Did it change how much time you spend with your family or what you could provide for your family? Now, I'm not saying learning new things that make a smaller impact isn't helpful. Of course, it's helpful. So is hearing from people who've been in your shoes and who know what you're going through. It's why we made this podcast, and we hope you get new insights, tips, and techniques from it, as well as encouragement. But if you're looking for truly life-changing transformation, then information alone isn't going to do it. You need a coach. I'm Rebecca Castle, CEO of Certain Path, and I know you need a coach because I needed one when I was in your shoes running a home service business where I was the CEO. The head trainer, the ops manager, the sales manager, the salesperson, the call taker, and everything else. That's why I'm certain that knowledge isn't enough, because I'd been a coach to home contractors before starting my company. I knew all the stuff, the right things to do, the procedures and strategies, and I still needed a coach. Fortunately, I had one, so I was able to grow that tiny HVAC company large enough to sell it for life-changing money. And since coming back to what was then SGI and coaching other home service businesses through that same life-changing journey, I know what's possible when you're given the tools and a coach and a community. But you don't have to take my word for it. I'll prove it to you. If you've got 90 minutes, I have a free virtual starter session that'll beat any podcast or seminar you've ever taken for delivering truly transformative content. It's free, no commitment. We just want to share with you 4 major things that we do think are the first steps to transforming your business. And all you have to do is go to mycertainpath.com and book a starter session because as helpful as our podcasts are, I'm betting you're going to find our starter sessions to be the best first steps you can take towards true transformation.

What are the biggest challenges contractors should expect from switching to this new refrigerant? Anything in particular?

Well, if you think about, you know, the tools that they need, whether it's vacuums, whether it's recovery machines, new gauges, sensors that support the new refrigerant. In the past, they may have been able to use the same recovery machine for R-22 or for today.

Yeah.

We won't be able to do that with 454.

Right.

So you would have to have new equipment, new gauges.

Yeah.

New everything. Um, and my encouragement to the contractors of the world today would be start buying your resources now.

Right.

Don't wait until everybody's going to buy 454 recovery machines and vacuum pumps.

Right.

Because when you do, there's going to be a scarcity.

Yeah.

Right. Everybody goes to buy toilet paper at one time. There's no toilet paper.

Yeah.

So start that process now.

Yeah. And, and you think you said it earlier, there's no compatibility with these refrigerants, right? No.

So Trane has taken the stance that we're not making any convertible kits, anything of that nature.

Yeah.

It's just simple, easy, uh, and it's better suited for our, our, not distributors, but our, uh, technicians and dealers. Um, we've got one sensor, we've got one board. That will fit all of our units.

Okay.

So one, one detection system, period. It doesn't matter what size, it's going to be one sensor, one board.

Okay.

So that the complexity is out the window.

Yeah.

That's— and they're factory installed. Oh, so there is no need to try to have to install it in the field.

Okay.

Nice. That's good. So why is the switch happening? Like what, are there any benefits to the contractor?

If you say I can charge more because I'm paying more, yeah, yes. But, you know, the EPA is going to tell us, you know, hey, we're doing this because global warming is real. Yeah, right. So with, with 454 and, and R32 for that matter, they have lower, lower warming potential than its predecessors, R22, 410A. Yeah. So it's safer on the environment.

Okay.

And that's kind of where they are with it, right? Yeah. They're saying, hey, we need to protect the environment and this is one way that we can do that.

Does that mean it's more efficient then?

It can be— not can, it will be more efficient.

Okay.

Um, it's typically the same one we saw from R-22 to 410A. Um, technology's advancing at a faster clip. Uh, and with this same process, uh, 454 is going to use, in essence, smaller, uh, line sets, smaller diameter line sets, which, which are the lines that carry the refrigerant from the indoor unit to the outdoor unit and vice versa.

Right.

If it's a smaller line, the pressures are higher.

Okay.

Which is going to help with performance. Now, I will say this, in certain instances, existing line sets may be able to be reused.

Okay.

Um, gotta have a great flush. There can't be any of the old refrigerant in the lines. But more importantly, you could lose some of your run versus rise, which means Where depending on my indoor unit and how far it is from my outdoor unit, there's a calculation that says I can only have so much line length.

Yeah.

You may lose some of that if you try to retain and use those same existing line sets.

Okay. The maintenance requirements pretty much still the same?

Still the same.

Okay.

Still the same. Nothing's changing there.

Yeah. Yeah. Very good. Are there any incentives for contractors or homeowners to upgrade these systems with the new refrigerants that you know of?

No.

Okay.

Well, what I'm trying to think, what's the best way to say it?

Yeah.

Um, so from a, from an OEM perspective, no, we're not, we're not waving a flag saying buy this and we do this. No.

Yeah.

Because it's going to happen naturally. Yeah, yeah, right. And because we have the sell-through from for an additional year. Yeah. There is no real incentive to try to push out 410A to bring in 454. It's going to happen naturally.

Yeah. So I guess, um, I know the equipment's more expensive though, right?

Absolutely.

But it is gonna be, it's more efficient. So overall cost, right? If you're spending less on electricity, it's, it's maybe comparable or what do you, what do you think?

So I, I've been given some type of guidance and I try to say this in the safest form possible. Um, the components that will have the detection systems, your coils, Um, which will be evaporator coils. Um, air handlers have coils and then contained package units will have a coil.

Yeah.

Those items will probably see a lift 10 to 15% depending on what, what it is. Um, gas furnaces aren't impacted, right? Uh, condensing units, heat pumps, although they, they're not having the sensor, they will have new compressors. Um, and then new identifiers, right? The lines are going to have labels on them and new stickers that say, hey, this is how much refrigerant's in this unit. Um, so it's just some additional stuff that's being put on the outdoor units, but it's all indoor stuff.

Yeah.

Uh, well, with the exception of your package unit, package unit won't be indoors. Uh, it's all indoor stuff for the most part.

How, how, I mean, how would you recommend contractors to educate homeowners about what's going on and, and why they might Why consider replacing a, a unit now that's 20 years old versus a year or so from now? Or, or any recommendations in that?

Well, you know, the contractors have the toughest task because they're going to, one, have to carry jugs of everything. I know contractors are still carrying R-22 because some homeowners still have R-22.

Yes.

So that's going to be the biggest thing. But from a cons— consumer educational piece, it's more so if that consumer's getting multiple bids. Like, did the other guy say, don't buy 410A now, wait till 454? And then did, did competitor B say, hey, you should buy 4— you should buy 410A now.

Yeah.

Because 454 is gonna be 15% more expensive.

Right.

So it just depends. Uh, I would suggest that the con— the dealer just share as much info that they can to the consumer.

Yeah.

And just let them, let them make their own decision. Uh, and let it be one that was backed by, by data and information that was provided to you.

So you guys expect, you know, shoulder— or when busy season starts, you, you, you'll be able to support this new, plenty of systems with this new refrigerant. There's no backup. Manufacturing's going well.

Well, here's the difference. So I mentioned to you earlier that with, with Trane, on the Trane side, we're 50/50. We have company-owned distribution. So of course with company-owned, we try to run a little leaner.

Sure.

In inventory, right? With independents, they have the autonomy to load up their barns.

Yeah.

And support. So I could see, uh, there could be situations where on the company-owned side we may be a little lighter. Yeah. But where independents may have, they may have inventory through Q1, Q2.

Yeah.

I don't think that that will potentially be the case for the DSO side. Yeah. Because we run a leaner operation. I think we would probably run outta 1410A stuff probably in the spring.

Okay.

That's good to know.

Now that could be sooner, it could be later. I'm just speculating.

Sure. What, what am I not asking that people need to know about this transition, how it's gonna impact them as contractors? Is there anything that we need to touch on?

I think you've probably asked the right questions. Um, I just think from a, from a dealer perspective.

Yeah.

They have to have the right gear.

Yeah.

Right. They cannot use the old stuff, the old gauges, the old recovery machines, the old vacuums aren't geared for 454B.

So get on that.

So just if making sure that they are ready to make those investments, that's a great— that is going to be critical.

I like it.

Uh, just gonna wrap it up.

What do you, what do you like about coming to these events and working with certain PASS members?

Uh, I, I love the opportunity to explain to dealers how we can help them.

Yeah.

Um, I, I, I mentioned I've, I, I was in the smart home space for Trane, uh, and was in that for a couple of years. And in that space, we had the ability at that time, we developed a thermostat that could communicate to the installing dealer, whether it was a communicating system or not. key points of the system.

Yeah.

Indoor, outdoor temp, indoor, outdoor relative humidity. It gave you certain points of information, uh, even on a non-communicating system, it can tell you if that system is not maintaining set point.

Yeah.

So just being able to educate the dealers here on the benefits of using not only our equipment, but the technical stuff that comes with it. Right. Um, we're in a world now where I mean, gosh, everything's at your fingertips. Well, we have a technician's app. Yeah. That if that dealer is onsite servicing a unit where in the past he may have to call to the office and ask for a wiring diagram, it will be available to him in an app when he connects or puts in that serial number for that unit that he's servicing.

Yeah.

Like everything's gonna be at his fingertips.

That's great.

And that's all tied into diagnostics that Trane Technologies offers for both Trane and AmeriXtent products.

That's fantastic.

We have premium products, but we also have value. So I, I mentioned Trane and American Standard, but our value brand for Trane is RunTrue. Our value brand for American Standard is Ameristar.

Yeah.

They still have the same capabilities on those value lines as well.

Nice. Very nice. If, if certain PAB members wanna get ahold of you, that's through the Partner Network portal, or how, how would you recommend?

Partner Network. But if you're at the show, yeah, come see us. We're in booth 402, if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah. Well, this will run later, but you're always at every show.

Yeah, I'm absolutely, I'm at EP. And I am the point of contact, uh, in the portal, right? So if you go and look at the Train American Standard program, it'll have my name, my email address, and my phone number. Yeah. So feel free to reach out to me.

I love it, Joel. Thank you for your time and trying to educate a poor guy like me on how to keep up on this. I'm sure our members got a lot of value out of this. So thank you so much.

Thank you for having me. And I look forward to working with you guys from years to come.

Love it. Thank you.

Thank you.

I hope you've enjoyed today's show.

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