S1E7 - Corey-osity Unleashed with Roland Butcher

Welcome to Curiosity Unleashed, where we turn bold ideas into action and help businesses and leaders step it up.

We're your hosts, Deborah and Ken, obsessed with fresh takes, bold moves, and shaking up the way we lead and work.

Alongside our amazing guests, we'll dive into the good, the bad, and in the actual what the hell of the workplace. Served with a side of sarcasm and a splash of wisdom.

Oh, and fair warning, this is an adult podcast. Expect swearing like Ken just did, brutal honesty, and the occasional dramatic reenactment of some of the most epic workplace fails we've ever seen or done.

So grab your drink, get comfy, and let's unleash some curiosity. Hi, everybody. We're here today with Roland Butcher. We're incredibly lucky to have him on our podcast and I just wanted to say thank you very much for joining us today, Roland. I'm going to talk a little bit about your history and then I want to hear the real story from you to make sure that we didn't get anything wrong.

Roland's thinking, oh my goodness, I just thought this was a conversation about my book and my life. I didn't know it was that.

So Roland is a true pioneer both on and off the cricket field. He's made his history as the first black cricketer to play for England, breaking barriers and inspiring future generations over a remarkable career. He's played, he's been a player, he's been a coach, a mentor and a leader in both sport and in business, bringing not just skill, but heart, resilience and vision to. To everything that he does. Is that about accurate?

So far, I think you're doing pretty well and great to be here, Ken and Deborah.

So I know you have an amazing story and I'm not going to try to steal any of your thunder. You've just written a book, is that right?

Yes, I have. I've just finally written my autobiography after lots of prompting, but yes, I've done that.

Well, congratulations on that. At the end of the podcast, I want to ask where people can buy it and how people can get in touch. Don't let me forget that. But for now, can you tell us a little bit more detail about your life? How did you get from there to here?

Yeah, it's a long story, but I guess it's a fairly interesting one. I was born in Barbados, a very small island of 166 square miles, but has a tremendous tradition and culture in cricket. I think Barbados per capita has produced more world class cricketers than anywhere else on the world. So I think that was a Good starting point to be born in a place like this where cricket is held in such high regard. And the West Indies as a team has had tremendous success over over 100 years. So I was born in a very rural part of the island, right in the east, the most eastern part of the island, place called St. Philip. Very much a plantation type situation. Everything's agricultural in that area, some 12 kilometers away from the capital, which people seem to think it's a long, long way. But I guess in Barbados terms it is. But yeah, so I was born. I was born there in 1953. My parents, my father to start with, went to England in 1955, obviously looking for better opportunities. My mother followed a couple of years later. I was basically raised by my grandmother and aunt here in Barbados until my parents wanted me to come to UK in 1967. So I went to UK 67, aged 13 and a half, adjusted to the system, schools, everything else, and then really started the development of my cricket career. You know, I'd really started and learned how to play the game as a kid here in Barbados. But in England is when it really developed in terms of structures and opportunities and eventually led to the point where, you know, I finally became the first black player for England.

Now, this was in the 70s, and I have to say that it seems to me that cultures have advanced a little bit, so that must have been quite the challenge back in the day.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, actually. I mean, my first game actually was in 1980, which was an interesting year for me because it's the year that they got married and to be also selected for England in that year. Yeah, I think before that, obviously it would have been a challenge for not just me, but for anyone living in England. I think West Indians had been in England since the Windrush generation, which started, I think, 1948. So, you know, it wasn't that a long period, but to become the first, I guess, was significant. But I'm sure that, you know, lots, lots of people before me would have had, you know, some problems in one, being accepted in England, establishing themselves and whatever they wanted to do as well as sport.

Yeah. And your book is called Breaking Barriers because you indeed did break barriers. I guess, you know, you make it sound so nonchalant. Oh, yes, well, I did it. I mean, at the time, did you know you were breaking barriers? Were there, like, challenges that you had to overcome? You know, in this day and age, there's so much that people need to do to overcome prejudice and to be the first or to change things. You know, no matter what, you know, gender, race, beliefs, whatever. So, you know, how. What's your thoughts on this whole concept of breaking barriers? What did it mean to you personally?

Yeah, I mean, it means a lot more to me now than it did then. In actual fact, when it was happening then, there was never any thought in my mind about breaking any barriers. As a kid in Barbados, I had two distinct ambitions in life. One was to be an international cricketer and the second was to be a pilot. So those were the two things that I wanted to do. So when the opportunity came to play international cricket, the only thing that was really on my mind was the fact that one, I had fulfilled an ambition I had as a six, seven year old, and two, I just really wanted to play, enjoy the game and do well. It's only much later that I really understood the significance of what really happened then.

But it all begins, as you say, with that goal, that ambition, that drive. And that could be possibly part of the reasons why you didn't necessarily see it as a challenge because you were so focused.

Yes, it was. You know, I think what also helped me was the fact that, you know, along the way a lot of people would tell you more friends, enemies and family that you couldn't do it. And that's what I like to hear when somebody tell me that I can't do something because it then gives me the motivation to actually do it. So they helped me along the way with that type of thinking and it all worked out well.

Do you know, it's funny you say that, because when I'm American, you can tell from my accent. But we've lived in the UK for 20 years and the reason that we're here is because I wanted to apply for a job in London and somebody said to me, you'll never get it. I'm like, don't you tell me I'm never going to get it. So I guess that's another tip in if you're trying to either break barriers or succeed is, you know, sometimes maybe you need to give somebody that motivation to go for it.

Absolutely. I mean, it's, you know, that type of saying sometimes breaks people. But, you know, I think generally it should really inspire people to, you know, to do and better to break barriers. As you see, it's a very powerful thing. It can be, and I guess it depends, you know, when they say it to you, what sort of state you're in at the moment. You know, if you're. If you had a vulnerable state, it could easily affect you. But because of those ambitions that I had, albeit, the ambition I had was obviously to play for West Indies, because I was living in the West Indies, I didn't know anywhere else. But at the same time, you know, the opportunity to play, that's all that was in my mind. And regardless of what people said, I knew obviously there would be challenges. But, you know, to achieve anything, you've got to accept those challenges, embrace them and move on.

It sounds like you knew exactly what your reason for being there was. It wasn't that you had some goal that somebody else had given you. You weren't thinking about breaking barriers, you were thinking about being better, doing really well and playing a good game.

Yeah, that's spot on. I mean, that is spot on. You know, I always wanted to be a player and to be a good player. So, you know, it never crossed my mind about, you know, I was breaking barriers, I was opening doors. It was just really fulfilling that ambition.

Yeah, yeah, I absolutely love that because when I started in my career, my background is software engineering. And at the time everybody was saying, you know, go into software because it's going to be a lot of. There's a lot of money, it's a great business, it's a this, that, the other. I didn't want to go into software for any of those reasons. I wanted to go into it because I enjoyed it. I really love actually creating something and watching the computer do what I told it to do and, you know, you can create value that way. I completely get it. I really, I really like that about, about your story. But all things do eventually come to an end and at some point you made the move from being a player to moving to a coach. What made that decision for you?

Yeah, that was an interesting decision, actually, to stop being a player. By 1990, I was feeling a little tired, actually. Obviously being on the circuit since the early 70s, you know, it was a long run. But I think my mental state at the end of that season perhaps dictated that I retired. In actual fact, a year later, I felt I'd done the wrong thing in actually retiring because, you know, I was still a good player. I was physically fit, I didn't have any injuries. You know, I was really in good order. But I think because of the. The buildup of the last two years, really, 80, well, 88 to 90 was pretty difficult years in that I was awarded a benefit by the Club Middlesex for 1989, but in order to facilitate that benefit in 1989, it meant that, you know, you had to start working that from 1988. So you've. So from 1988, I was having to attend all the functions for the previous. For the persons whose benefit was in 1988, obviously to get a feel of what it was like as well as still playing on a full time basis. So that's making you pretty tired now. Come 1989, which is my year, I then had to play as well as carry out those functions. And the benefit runs for one year. So it runs from January 1st to December 30th, 31st. So you have to plan all of those events, you have to then be at all of those events. And the more events you have, you know, the better it is for you. So I did that. 89. The 19th season came, I played the 19th season, we won championship again. But, you know, I think at the end of that I was. I was pretty tired. What I should have done is really taken six months off, just get away from cricket, recharge, and then in April, start again. I didn't do that. I retired and it turned out a year later I felt, you know what, when I was in a better place, that you made a mistake. So having done that, really, there was no coming back. So, you know, the next thing was really, you've got to get on with the rest of your life. So coaching and management is where I gravitated to after.

Okay. Now, it's a shame they didn't really talk about burnout back in those days because it sounds like that's about where you were. You used up all your emotional energy and you were still putting it out there and finally there wasn't anything left, so you had to take a step back.

Yeah, that is spot on. Yeah, I mean, it was. I wouldn't say it wasn't known at that time. I'm sure it was known by some persons, but it was never, ever talked about in the game of sport. Nobody ever really talked about BRNO or heard about brno. It was, you know, so if, if they had done it would have been a lot better for me because, you know, they could have put things in place to help me, you know, get over that feeling, which is only a temporary feeling, but at the time you feel as if it's terminal. And I'm sure that I'm not the only one who has left the game on that basis because of burnout and not other people recognizing what you were going through and, you know, assisting you to overcome it.

I was just going to say it's interesting because at the beginning we were talking about how I did gymnastics and I am obsessed with college gymnastics back in the US Still. And there's this one gymnast who she took a year off, she traveled the world and she came back and her coach begged her to come back on the team. And people are looking like you've just taken a whole year off. You know, are you going to be good enough? And she won first in the championships on the balance beam. And I'm hoping to your point that it sort of opens the door and opens people's minds, showing people that actually, you know what, stepping away can be good for you. Even in a sport where, you know, you think that you have to be practicing 24 7.

Yeah, I think we're learning that more and more these days. And you're seeing it in high level sport that players are stepping away for a while because of the mental pressures coming back. And in most cases they come back even better. I think it's an important thing to do, but it's important also for your clubs and teams to recognize, you know, where a player is at at that particular time and help him to, because, you know, you're your worst enemy. You know, if somebody had said to me, listen, Roland, this is what you're going through, it will pass, take some time out, come back, you know, it'd be good for you. You know, I could have played for another five years easily because physically I was in good shape, but obviously that wasn't recognized. I think now, you know, you see it at, in tennis and golf, you know, players are deciding that, you know, I've got to take a break and they come back much better for it.

Yeah, absolutely. Now you didn't just stop at that and walk away from cricket altogether. You became a coach at that point. And you became a coach in several different places. So you had some really good success there as well.

Yes, I mean, initially I didn't want to be a coach. When I was, when I was playing, I didn't want to be a coach.

That's very honest of you.

Yeah. I think the reason for that is that particularly in cricket, I didn't like the English way of teaching cricket. I thought it was very limiting. And basically, you know, it was, you were telling the player all the time, the young players, you know, what they needed to do instead of allowing the player to express himself and then help him along the way. So I was never one that wanted to be that said, listen, as soon as I finish, I'm going to become a coach. I think it was probably the complete opposite. I probably actually hated coaching. Actually before I Started. But I also recognize after I finished playing that when you have invested 20 odd years professionally in the game and all the other years before that, you know, there's not a lot else that you can do. So. So in order to continue, you know, you stayed, you know, you stayed in the game and coaching was part and parcel of that. So I think that's why I really got back into coaching.

It's interesting you say that because when Ken and I wrote our book on leadership, we intentionally, we have something called building blocks. So what, what does it take to be a great boss? And we've got development, which is what you talked about, where your coach tells you what to do, you go and you, you know, you go practice for this, you go in the weight room, that type of stuff. Whereas coaching, and we made it a separate building block is exactly what you talked about, where it's more about how helping and guiding and you know, although you were a resistant coach, I'm so glad that you went into coaching because we need more coaches like you. You know, to me that's what a coach is. I don't know your thoughts on that. And you know, was it difficult for you to be that kind of coach at the beginning? And how have you seen that change?

It was, it was difficult in England because all the coaching manual says this is how you do it right there, there are no exceptions. So they were trying to fit everyone into this particular perfect build. You know, they didn't recognize people have different styles, big people, small people. And they were trying to really develop the ideal player, which, you know, there's no such thing as developing the ideal player. So it was difficult for me because here on the one hand I had in my mind what's needed in order to help players become better players. But at the same time I have to follow a rule book that says this is how you do it. So it was quite challenging for me to start with and it was really probably years later that I, I think probably when I decided that I'm not too bothered about the system anymore. But when you're a young coach, you can't rock the boat because you will find yourself easily ostracized from the system. So I had to play that one fairly close to my chest in terms of trying to balance between what I wanted and what the manual said I should do.

You talk in your book about breaking barriers as a player, but it sounds like you also absolutely, positively broke barriers as a coach too. Maybe that's just your personality. You're all about shaking things Up. We call ourselves rebels in our profession. We're rebels shaking up. You know, how you treat your people. You're. You're a rebel on the field, then breaking barriers. There you go. We do have an extra cape if you want to wear it.

Yeah, I think I'm like that. I don't like people being put in a particular box. And this is the only box, as we all know, there are many boxes out there, so find the one that suits you. And that's always been my thinking. So, you know, I probably would have always had problems with authority and tradition because, you know, I don't. I think things are always evolving, and you've got to evolve with it. You cannot tell me that this is the way you've done. You do it in 1970 and in 2025, you're telling me that you must still do it this way.

That's really interesting because that leads into my next question.

Almost like we planned it this way.

Ken, I know you're being such a good sport about this. Roland, thank you so very much. Were there any captains, coaches or mentors, good or bad, that shaped your own leadership style, and what did they do that really stuck with you?

Well, that's a very good question. And yes, there was. Well, my captain at Middlesex was a guy by the name of Mike Brayley, who also became England captain. Cambridge graduate. Very, very clever guy. He took over the captaincy of Middlesex in, I think, 1971. I joined Middlesex in 1972. He took over a Middlesex side that had the remnants of the old professionals who dominated the game for decades before, who were on the way out. But by also dominating the game, they also dominated the dressing room with their philosophies and their ideas. So here was this young Cambridge graduate now being put in charge of all of these old professionals. Fortunately, within a couple of years, those old professionals had left the game because they were at the end of their career. So he was now piecing together a young. A team of young players that obviously he could then have his stamp on. And it was quite refreshing because when I first joined Middlesex in 1972, it was very much a case of young players are seen and not heard. You just sat. You didn't say anything. Those old players dominated everything, didn't involve you in nothing. But suddenly, here's this guy who. His thinking is the complete opposite. You know, he is involving every young player in the decision making, which was very unusual and surprising because, you know, the whole history of that sport has always been senior professionals doing what senior professionals do. So Mike Braley, you know, and obviously right through my career, I probably spent 10 years under him as a captain. He very much shaped not just the way myself, but all the players of that generation. He really shaped the way they developed, not just as players, but, you know, as people and as leaders.

Gina, as you're talking, there's just so many synergies between what you're talking about, what happens out when you're playing the sport and what happens in the workplace, because that happens so many times. You know, I can remember, you know, back in the 80s and the 90s where, you know, you're joining the workforce and you. You can never challenge your boss. You know, you have to go along with whatever they say. So, yeah, no, I love the idea of changing it. And you. I've learned, I absolutely love talking to the young players or employees because they've often. They've got so many amazing perspectives that I never even would have considered, you know, absolutely brilliant.

Yeah, he was, Emma, he, he. He really was good at getting young players to think about the game. I think his concept always was about having 11 captains on the field, not just one captain. The game before told you that there was a captain, he was in charge, everybody else followed orders. I think what Mike Braylee did, certainly with Irting was he empowered every individual on the field to be a thinker and to be a leader on the field. And if that happens, you're unbeatable because you're not just waiting on one person to do everything. You know, you've got 11 players all thinking of ways to make the team win. And I think not just in sport, but in business, that really is a concept that gets prolific results.

Ken wants this idea of having T shirts made with really key phrases. I think, Roland, we're going to be quoting you on that. So does your. How many captains does your workforce have? I just love that concept. The more people you can have owning it and driving it, instead of turning around and waiting for the captain or the leader to tell you what to do, you're going to be quicker, you're going to be more agile, you're going to be more innovative, brilliant.

That is very true. I mean, one of the things that he did very, very quickly was that on the field of player, you know, he would come up to the young players and, you know, I would start with myself as a young player and he would say, Roland, one of our players, I would say, Mike Gatton or someone is bowling at the other end. He's going to be finished in about Five minutes. Who would you replace him with? Now, from a captain to a young player, that's a frightening thought. And most of the young players, when he asked that, it was like, mouth open because they can't speak. But what it actually did was that it ensured that when he came another time to ask you a question, that you were not going to be caught with your mouth open. So it meant that you followed the game and you always had a perspective. So that when he came and asked you a question, you could respond in whatever way, but he didn't always agree with your response. So he would say to me, who do you think we should put in here? And I would say, well, Philip Edmonds, one of our players. And he would say, no, I don't think so. I think John Embry.

But.

Sometimes, a couple of minutes later on, you know, he would come by and he said, you know, Sammy, you know, I think you were right. You know, you know, it was that type of. And that really made all of us, as young players individually, very, very comfortable, very confident in ourselves, in our game and in the team performance.

Yeah. One of our building. Another one of our building blocks is empowerment. And that's exactly what you're talking about. And one of the things that we always encourage leaders to do is just because you empower people, exactly what you said, doesn't mean you have to agree with them, because a lot of leaders are afraid to ask their people because then they'll be like, oh, well, I have to say yes. So it's such a brilliant example that you shared how sometimes you do, sometimes you don't.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. Yeah.

I absolutely love the idea that if you've got a team and you've got the captain making all the decisions, that's. There's one brain running that whole team. If you have another team with all the players making decisions, look how much more brain power you have on that other team than in the first team. So how, how, how can that other team not just dominate?

Of course. I mean, that. That's a winning combination. And that's what happened because between mid-70s to mid-90s, Middlesex, our team completely dominated English cricket. So that, you know, that was not by accident, you know that. That certainly was by design.

There you go, giving away all the secrets here.

Yeah. Next time we need to do a case study because we're always sharing stories where there's actually an ROI at the end. So thank you, Roland. That's a. A perfect. It's not just a lovely story, but to your Point there's proof in the championships that you all won.

Yeah, very much so. But one other thing that I would add is perhaps that I think the constant changing of leadership also affects the overall performance. And I'll use again Middlesex club as an example. Mike Brayley played until the mid-80s period of dominance. Mike Gatton, one of the young players who came to Middlesex the same time as myself, took over and continued the dominance until 1995. Now last year I was at Lord's and I was doing a tour for the MCC with some Australian people who came to tour Lawes Cricket Ground. And part of the tour you, you know, you go to the media center, you go to the museum, so you end up in the players dressing room. And so we ended up in our dressing room, which was our dress room in the Middlesex dressing room. But what I saw in the Middlesex dressing room was something that I hadn't seen before because when I was playing it wasn't there but on the wall. It had all the captains of Middlesex from the period of 1970 through to 2024. And the thing that struck me was when I looked up there and I saw between 1970, 71, 1995, there were two Middlesex captains in Mike Brayley and Mike Gattin. And there was also at least 20 odd trophies in that period. Now I continued looking from 1995 to 2024 and to my horror I saw 31 Middlesex captains.

Wow.

No way.

One trophy. So that was a real eye opener for me. You know, I was asking myself, well, why in the 20 odd year period of dominance, you can win 20 trophies with two captains, but with 31 captains you win one trophy. And that was very poignant to me. Right. The fact that Mike Braley built it and Mike Gatton continued after that constant change of leadership did not produce championships.

But you know, again, if I equate that to the workplace, you know, change is good. Don't get me wrong, you know, having just one person in those 20 years wouldn't have been good. But if you, each time a new leader comes in, they're going to change things. They're players that are going to have to learn new things. I can imagine, you know, you're unfortunately, you're setting your players up for failure because of that constant change. I think, again, I think that's a really important, you know, lesson in the workplace as well as, you know, out in the field.

Any change takes time to get embedded and for the, for the team to figure out how to use it. Absolutely.

Really important point. Thanks for Adding that I want to pick your brain on another area. You know, one of the challenges that leaders have is the F word, feedback. How do you give feedback? I mean, I do lots of courses on feedback and I can just see leaders walk in the room just dreading it because they fear feedback. But as a coach, you have to do it all the time. So how do you balance that tough feedback with encouragement and all the things that help someone listen to you and then learn and grow? What are your words of wisdom there?

I think in terms of feedback, the first thing you must do is recognize that feedback is an important part and parcel of the whole process. You don't know everything, you can't get everything right. So feedback is always required. Now, certainly in sports, for me, the timing of feedback is very important. Unfortunately, in a lot of sports, particularly after a bad performance, the coach is looking for immediate feedback. He has a team meeting. For me, that is the worst time to have a team meeting because emotions are high, people are.

No one's listening anyway to you. So, yeah, yeah.

That really, you cannot get constructive feedback from that because in the end you're going to end up somebody getting blamed. He's blaming him. So the timing of feedback is important for me as a coach. Good or bad performance. Right. There's a time set, another day for us to discuss this. Right, we've lost. Okay, bad luck, guys. Monday we'll have a session. So when you come around to that session on Monday, all the players, they have all come down from that high or disappointment. They're now thinking clearly and they can give more constructive feedback in the meeting to help the team go forward. And I think business is the same as well. The timing of getting feedback, particularly when things go wrong, is very important.

Yeah, I think it's a really important point. And unfortunately, so many people focus on the how that they forget about the when. So they practice all the steps to give it and then they're just so anxious to do it. So I think that's a really, really important. And I've seen it go horribly wrong. Like you have mentioned in the workplace, when someone just gives you that feedback at the wrong time or you give it to someone. So, no, really, again, really important tip.

We know that cricket is a game of patience and strategy and resilience. How does that shape your approach to leadership and coaching today?

So before you answer that, can I just. For people who don't know cricket, how long does a match take?

Right. Well, I mean, I will answer that in the question from Ken.

Okay, good, good.

The question Ken asked really relates to a specific format of the game because cricket has changed somewhat now in terms of patience, strategy, etc etc. That is something for the longer form in the game. Now the longer form of the game was more prevalent when I played so it meant that games could last four to five days. Four days for a championship game, test matches between international sides. Five days now. What's happened now is the changing of the game. You still got that side but you've also got the shortened version of the game now, right, which is, and the very Shortish is the 20 over game which takes three hours, almost in line with a baseball match. So they both call for two different things. This type of game, there's no need for patience, this is fast and furious. So this new game is about being reckless, it's about being innovative, it's about being, being inventive, it's about taking risk, all at a very high pace. Ken's question is related to perhaps when I was playing where the longer form in the game where you've got to be more patient, you've got to be more strategic, the fast paced game, if those players try to play that way, the game will be over in a day. So now we've got the two different types of games and we've got two different types of players and the players need to adapt to each. What I will say is, and your question Ken, is a very good one in that the players who are good at the longer form of the game are also the best players at the shorter form of the game because they have the patience, they have the strategy, etc, etc from the longer game to adapt to the shorter form where the person who only plays the shorter form, he's never developed those skills, right? So he basically is a hit or miss. And if you look, if you follow the statistics of the best players, you see the best players in the longer format are also the best players in the shorter format. So that's an interesting change in the game.

I get it, I understand. But how has that shaped your approach to leadership and coaching today?

Yeah, it must be completely different skill sets trying to coach people in long and short. Similar. It is similar.

Completely different. I think what it has taught me, and I guess what I have been, I guess born with or lucky or whatever is that I've always believed that and I think it goes back to the English coaching days. I've always believed that there's no one way, right? That's always been something that I've believed in. So I've Always been open to change and I know that there's always going to be change. Teams, matches, games will change over time. So that, that's something that I, that I recognize and I, and I'm happy to change with it. Now I have a lot of friends, both in the game and outside of the game who will not embrace the new game. They're traditionalists, right? This is all they're interested in, this is how it should be done. And this new game, it is not a game. Now as a coach, you can't coach or want to coach just the one side because the game is changing. You know, you have now got in my time and in their time you had players who wanted to play the longer form in the game. That's what they grew up, that's what they love, that's all they knew. Right now you've got young players now who come into the game, they're seeing the shorter form in the game. That's what they want to do. You know, they're not really interested in the. And what they're also saying is that the rewards for the shorter game far outstrips the rewards for the longer game. So you can't just be coaching one side. So for me it's about adaptation and, you know, understanding that there is a change, there's a shift in the game, there's a shift in the way young people want to play the sport and to be able to support those persons who want to only play long form cricket and also those who play short form. So it's just been to adapt.

And we've seen changes like that in the workplace. Same thing. You know, there's some pieces of work that happen very quickly, others are more long term and such. So I think you're right, it's adaptation. I'm going to sneak in one more question before Ken wraps it up. And it's about motivation. As leaders I talked about feedback was difficult, but motivation can be difficult in good times and bad. And as a coach, I'm sure a big part of your job is motivation. How you know, what kind of words of wisdom can you share with us about how to motivate your players or your employees? As a leader and a coach, I.

Think first and foremost as a leader you must understand that you're going to have bad, good days and you're going to have bad days. Your players, your staff, they're going to have good days and they're going to have bad days. And I know from being a kid in Barbados there was always an old saying that old people would always tell you, and I don't think they knew why they were really saying it, but what they would say is, to people is, you know, every day is fishing day, but every day is not catching day. And that is something that always stuck in my mind from a kid. What do they mean by every day is fishing day? But every day is not catching day. But what I got to understand as I developed as a person, as a cricketer and a sportsman is that that is something that you have to recognize that you're not going to do well every day. Some days are going to be bad days and some days are going to be good days. I think when you recognize that, it puts you in a position that you now know how to handle your teammates or your workers, because just like you, they're going to have good days and bad days. And you have to be there to support them during the bad days and praise them during the. During the good days. Right. And also make them understand because sometimes they will not understand or recognize that, yeah, I'll have good days and I'll have bad days. And I think a leader who can get an individual to be really comfortable with himself, you know, that type of leader will always get the best out of those people under it.

Yeah, I love it. Because you're also distinguishing between that. You're not trying to force everybody to have one particular day and then you're using different tools. You know, going back to your fishing analogy, you might give them worms on one day when you're praising them. I'm trying to go with that analogy, but yeah, not doing really well. But no, thank you. I'm really glad I snapped that question in because I absolutely love that. That phrase that you shared with us again, I think, Ken, that could go on a T shirt as well. Brilliant.

Every day is a fishing day, not every day is a catching day. That's right.

Love it.

Brilliant. And, you know, if it wasn't for these gray hairs, I don't know if I would have understood that.

But it took me a long time, but I finally got there.

Unfortunately, we've come to the end of our time and that's really disappointing because I'm enjoying this. For the people that want to read your upcoming book, where do they get it and if they want to reach out to you, how do they do that?

Right. In terms of the book, they can get the book on ww.rowlandbutcher.co.uk they can reach out to me on RBSports with an S. Consultants with an S. @yahoo.com and I will return any emails that I receive from them. But yes, the book, it is here. It's going to be launched actually in the UK on the 14th of May. We've had two launches in the Caribbean, one in Barbados at the University of the West Indies on the 9th of April. Just came back from Trinidad, where we had one on Tuesday. And the UK launch will be on the 14th of May.

Other countries as well. We do have listeners from other countries. It's going to be global, right?

Yes, yes. I mean it's, you know, you know, cricket now very much is a, is a global sport. Outside of football, obviously, it's the second biggest sport in the world. So, yeah, we're looking to attract readers from all over the world and I.

Can picture you being a brilliant keynote speaker. Do you do that? Can people contact you for that as well?

Yes, they can. Basically, when I do go to the UK next week, I'll be there really for the rest of the year so they can reach me in the UK for any events that they would like me to do.

Thank you so much for joining us today, Roland. It's been a real pleasure. I always feel like I learned something from the people that join our podcast and this has been no, no exception. So thank you very much for that.

Thank you very much for inviting me. It's been a great pleasure. Great to meet you and certainly hope that our paths cross in the, in the future.

No worries. Enjoy your travels in the uk. Hope you have a great year.

Thank you very.

Much.

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