MLM Lawyer Kevin Thompson | Rashkins vs. Wealth Masters International

There we go. Hi, everyone. Kevin Thompson here from Thompson Burton. We've got a hangout organized with our clients, Aaron and Sophia Rashkin. We've also got our litigator, our partner Cole Dowsley on the line, as well as the infamous Troy Dooley. Troy, how you doing?

I'm doing great, buddy.

How you guys doing? Doing wonderful. And thanks for kind of being on this call with us. We thought it was important for the Raskins to get their story out, talk about what's going on. I know you take an interest when it comes to distributor issues. We've got one here. And if anything, we can use this sort of a hangout, this sort of conversation to educate distributors who are in various companies going forward about what can happen when you leave the company and how to defend yourself if you find yourself on the wrong side of a lawsuit.

Well, that's something that I think everybody needs to know about because we're seeing this more and more lately as it comes up, and more and more people are getting hurt because they don't understand going into it. Aaron, that's a question. I mean, you are a pro at what you do. Did you anticipate that something like this would happen when you guys started shifting and going elsewhere?

No, we didn't anticipate anything like this happening, but we didn't really go elsewhere. We just were doing what we had been doing all along. We just were marketing a new product that the company that we were with brought out.

Yeah.

And Troy. So Aaron used Carbon Copy Pro as my understanding as a marketing funnel to attract leads for WealthMasters, and WealthMasters was okay with it. And at some point, CCP started selling something else. And Aaron didn't change anything. I think Wealth Masters gave him a choice. They said, come with us or go over there, but you can't do both. Aaron and Sophia chose to do both, and they found themselves sort of caught in the crossfire here. You know, I'm not saying that these contractual provisions, non competes, non solicitations, are always unenforceable. But the reality is, in this case, Aaron is an Internet marketer. He funnels these leads through CCP first, then directs traffic to Wealth Masters, then for Wealth Masters to sue them and say, hey, those are our people you're soliciting that you're taking from us. It was a bold argument, and it was an even bolder strategy to soothe in the court in Texas, because you and I both know that the preferred place for litigation is arbitration.

Absolutely.

And I have my opinions. But why do you think that is?

I think arbitration is used because usually the companies can win in situations like that. And it also keeps a lot of this stuff out of the limelight. Now that a lawsuit has been filed, obviously, you know, not to coin the greatest phrase, but everybody's pants are down. I mean, all of a sudden, all that baggage shows up. This is something we're seeing across the board, not just with wmi. It's happening everywhere because we've seen Visalis do the same thing. People that were in Power Network, that were out there building their Visalis business, all of a sudden you got to choose one or the other. Honestly, I think when you go into a contractual relationship, whether it's on paper or whether it's just verbal, if Aaron or anybody comes to a company and says, this is the system we're using, then the company should be the one that goes and checks out that system. If there's a compensation plan to it, an affiliate program, I don't care what it is. If the company feels like that could be a threat in the future, then that should be disclosed right up front, not after you've got leaders that have helped to build the company. And then all of a sudden you switch your mind. I don't think that's fair, and I don't think it's right. To the independent professionals that are out here building whatever company it is in this case, it's obviously it's hurt. And you guys have filed this lawsuit. Now, you guys are still in the discovery phase of this, correct? I mean, it hasn't gone to court or anything else yet.

Well, Cole, that's for you to chime in.

Yeah, that's right. We just filed the answer, which is a formal response to all of the allegations that WMI has made against the rations. And as part of that answer, we included a counterclaim. And the counterclaim is where the pyramid scheme argument is laid out. And we essentially argue that the underlying contracts between the Rashkins and WMI are unenforceable because of this illegal scheme. That WMI should not be able to use their illegal scheme as both a shield and a sword. And so, yeah, we are in the discovery phase. We're in the written discovery phase now. Will be moving into depositions in the coming months, but at this time, the case is not ready for trial, and we're not quite at that stage yet.

Okay, Cole, I got a question for you, because you guys filed this. And it always shocks people when a law firm that is pro MLM or pro direct selling files a lawsuit stating or alleging ponzi or pyramid scheme. And I think I could sit down on a whiteboard with WMI and actually draw out that allegation. But why did you guys go down that path versus just suing them for wrongful termination or interference of business or anything else?

I think Kevin can probably shed some light on the reasons we decided to take up this argument for the rations.

Yeah, Troy, I thought long and hard about this and you know, I sued a company four years ago, E Fusion, and I also passed or tried to pass an anti pyramid statute. So I do think there's a difference between legitimate network marketing programs and pyramid schemes. I've got no problem so suing companies that I feel in my opinion are clearly operating as pyramid schemes. People say, well, it's bad for the industry. Let me tell you something, it's bad for the industry when companies are allowed to operate under the guise of legitimate network marketing companies when they're operating as pyramid schemes. That's bad for the space. And it's really bad for the space when these companies have the arrogance to sue distributors.

Sure.

In state or federal court. So we thought hard about it. We felt like wealth masters. There's being bullies. And here's the thing. This is my opinion. They're not well respected in the profession. They've already been held to be a pyramid scheme in Norway. They've been under sec subpoena. They don't have a lot of favorable reviews out there. They've got a $20,000 product with arguably we intend to prove has no value outside of the distributor network. And so I didn't see any problem going after these guys. I think it's pretty obvious they sold these products they never collected and paid sales taxes. They did a lot of things wrong. And here's the thing, I'm finding it cold. If you couldn't tell if they're going to sue these guys, my clients Aaron and Sophia, then we're going to make them earn it. If they're going to say this contract's enforceable, we're going to make them earn it. And you know what? In the Revolutionary War, you had the Redcoats and you had the Patriots and they'd line up. The Redcoats would shoot first, Patriots would shoot second, and whoever had the most people standing would win. But then when you're finding an opponent with superior resources, you got to be more creative. And so that was the genesis of the militia, which then became known as the Army Rangers. But these people said, forget going toe to toe and litigating on or Forget toe to toe and fighting their fight on their terms in their venue, they develop a different strategy. And, you know, instead of going toe to toe with these companies and arguing these contract provisions, just make them defend their model from day one. Which. Number one, it's unexpected. Number two, a contract that facilitates an illegal end is unenforceable. And so that's the strategy.

And I think that's good. Let me ask. I want to ask Aaron a question. Aaron, how long ago has it been since you guys were forced to leave Wealth Masters International?

Well, they terminated us in December of 2010.

Okay, so this started 2010. Why now? We're in 2013, the second half. Why has it taken this long for this to get to this stage? Did they start working with you? I mean, obviously in the arbitration early on, but why now? Where was the breakdown? I guess in the communication line?

Eric, I'll let Kevin answer that question. All I can say to that is that the company's, you know, operating on such, you know, short of breath right now. I mean, they're sure I don't know how much more life they have left in them, and they're desperate.

Understand? Understand?

Cole, you're more familiar with the procedural history, right? I mean, when were the rations terminated? When did they start arbitration, if I'm not mistaken?

I believe arbitration was initially instituted about six months following the termination in December of 2010. And the arbitration broke down for various reasons. And then this lawsuit was filed approximately two years, almost two years after they originally terminated in 2010. It seems to be just a desperate attempt by WMI to squeeze some money out of some folks, including the Rashkins, and just to really attempt, just grasping at straws, because from what we can tell, the business is no longer viable and there doesn't seem to be a lot of activity.

All right, then that brings up my question. So this was 2010. We enter into arbitration. You know, they. And I've only reviewed some of the documents there, but they pulled out of arbitration or they didn't pay arbitration fees. Was there something along that line back in 2010, or maybe 11, as this.

Started going in, and our firm was not involved at that point. And so I'm not entirely clear on the procedural history there, but it appears that WMI did not follow the proper procedures or didn't pay the fees or whatever it was, but the arbitration proceeding, there was never any resolution or conclusion to that.

And real quick, just to kind of piggyback on what Cole was saying, number one, I mean, we think that they're not really viable they might be and we're going to get to the bottom of that based on the silence. Usually when a company faces litigation like this they respond and they protect their, they get in protect mode and they issue messages. There's been nothing from those folks. And you know, in WMI's defense, I hate saying that. I was informed today that.

The reason.

Why I was kicked out of arbitration is because the Rashkins did not consent to jurisdiction or something like that. Bottom line is that it's been two and a half years. Get over it people. And here's the thing. For them to recover money from Aaron and Sophia, they're going to have to defend their model. And we've got expert testimony looking through some stuff right now, some experts, they're going to have to defend their model, they're going to have to win the contract claims. We think we got a good argument there that these contract provisions are unenforceable about the non solicitation and whatnot. But to really get at the rations, Kip and Carl, they need to be willing to lose everything because so far it looks like they've done pretty well for themselves. And if this thing continues it's going to get uglier. And at least I gave a courtesy notice to opposing counsel. As far as what we're going to do next, I don't want to announce it now. I gave them notice that we're going to file the counterclaim a month in advance. I've learned back in the old Amway days when ORN was fighting Amway, you don't shoot the gun and then start discussions. You at least give people a chance to process it so you can at least told them hey look, we gave you a shot. But bottom line is they've got to be willing to risk everything because that's the direction this case is heading.

Well, not only that, I'm still, I mean I am just perplexed here because I fully understand what Carbon Copy Pro is. I have, I mean I think, I don't know, probably four to six magazines a month over the last two years or three years that I, that I open up and Aaron's got an ad, him and Sophie both, they've got these ads in the magazine. So to, to act like that somehow these guys violated an agreement. I think in and of itself is going to be hard to do because the Rashkin's have continued to do what they've always done and that's to advertise to build a business and, and that's what's perplexing to me. Plus, it's two years old. This is like a predatory company, you know, this isn't just, let's sue. I mean, if a company wants to try to enforce their agreement, There's a six month clause or something in there. That's understandable. If they can say, well, Aaron and Sophie went out there. And they just raided the downline. I understand that's the propaganda, But I haven't seen this happen at all. And I've stayed in contact with watching what goes on. With all the leaders that are in any company. Just so we can watch what's going on. How's it doing? So this is totally wrong. And as for kip and carl, do they not. Maybe it's not their lawyer's position to do this, but do they not realize that when a case starts to hit magnitude, all of a sudden, regulators and everybody else do start looking in. And all of a sudden, this is public information. And if they've already been under an investigation once with the sec, Then it seems it would be a whole lot wiser to settle this thing in an arbitration situation. Than wait two to three years down the road and then file a lawsuit like this. Dude, have you. Why, Kevin, do you. Can you tell me that? I mean, this is dumb in my. The way I see it, for the.

Record, I did not use the word dumb.

No, I did, though. They're stupid to do this. This is ignorant.

I don't understand the psychology. And I can't really speak as to their lawyer. He seems like a nice fellow, But, Troy, you've seen it, I've seen it. We've been in the business long enough, and we know kind of where this trail goes. When I have a client, unless they're perfect, I mean, squeaky clean perfect. I advise them not to sue. Because when you do that, you subject your model to public scrutiny. And even a good model, for example, as herbalife is finding out, Even a good model like herbalife can be attacked. Can be wrongfully attacked. You don't want to put that out there. Why? They've made a decision to risk everything to chase two distributors. It's just. It doesn't make any sense. I've heard of words, Arrogance, lack of understanding. I don't know, Aaron, you've left a company before. What was that experience like? Was it easy? Was it like this?

Yeah. So fee and I left an MLM company back in. We resigned, I think, in December of 2008. And we knew that because we were leaving that company. That we were not to have conversation with their distributors for 12 months. So we did that to the letter. We didn't talk to people, we sent them away. When they called us if they were still a part of that company, we said, we're unable to talk to you for a 12 month period because we know the policies and procedures. We actually waited 13 months to be on the safe side. And all the while, while we had sat out from talking to people in that company, there was a lot of pressure being put on us by WMI to go talk to those people. They kept calling and asking us when we were going to go raid the downline.

Oh, pressure from them to solicit Xango people?

Correct.

Oh my goodness gracious.

And we refused to do it. And they were not happy with us because we, you know, we could have done what they had requested, but that wasn't the smart thing to do. So when we got hit with this lawsuit, we were shocked because we play by the rules. I've been in the industry for a long time, 22 years I've been in home business and we know better than to do something that would put us in a position like this. Like I said earlier, we were Carbon Copy Pro members. We sold product to those members in Carbon Copy Pro who came to us when we sold them more product that Carbon Copy Pro created. We didn't expect to be hit with a lawsuit for doing what we had been doing for two years plus before that even happened.

Let me stop you just for a second, Aaron, and you may have to refer this back to Kevin. What was the new product that Carbon Copy Pro was selling that Wealthmasters International seemed to not like?

They launched a new. Well, it was just kind of like an additional or an expansion of the educational line that they had going already. They had a couple of products, several products really, that were for entrepreneurs and small business and home business owners, Internet marketers and affiliate marketers. They had an education line. When they expanded the education line into the financial arena through a very well known name by the name of David Bach, they, they went from being kind of like the niche market of home business and Internet marketing and affiliate marketing, multi level marketing, they expanded into more of the mainstream market because David Bach is a household name. When they brought that product line on, they expanded their line and we started selling that product as well. Apparently Wealth Masters didn't like that, which is why they gave us a choice as to whether we wanted to market them or we wanted to market the Carbon Copy Pro line. We had been Carbon Copy Pro members before we were Wealth Masters. Members to begin with. So we stayed where we were originally started.

Okay, that makes sense right there. Now Kevin, you mentioned early on, and I know this, but maybe Aaron or Sophie can expound on it. At WMI, Wealth Masters International, there's a $20,000 ticket. Can you guys share a little bit for those that may not understand, company even does what that package, what that product is for 20 grand.

Yeah.

Kevin.

Well, real quick, I want to kind of summarize the model and then Aaron, you answer the question about that particular product. Wealth Masters has a series of, of progressive products. And so I think for $2,000 it's their M1, which is a conference. And when you buy the M1, you can make money on M1 sales. And below, if someone in your downline purchases the M3, your earning potential is limited. You have to buy the M3 to maximize your earning potential. And the same is with the m. Oh, the Platinum plus is what they call it. That's the $20,000 ticket. To make money from a Platinum plus product, you had to buy it yourself. And what we've alleged in our complaint is that people bought this stuff not for the inherent value. They bought it to put themselves in a position to maximize their earnings. Now there is an opportunity for somebody to qualify for full commissions by selling those products. But we've already got affidavits from people where, people that actually worked at WMI where they can, where they said nobody ever qualified that way.

Okay, let me. Hang on. Kevin, let me ask you a question because I want to make sure I clarify this. To qualify for the Platinum plus commissions, you had to buy the product or there was, or, and, or there was a way you could qualify for it outside of being forced to buy it.

Correct.

Okay, okay. But nobody from affidavits that you guys have, the alleged, what's being alleged now is that nobody's ever qualified that way. Everybody that qualified for commissions had, I mean, basically bought the product themselves.

Correct. To qualify for more money. And so there's a lot of case law on the subject. Actually, there's a really good case in Texas. Case in Texas, somebody was selling thousand dollar magazine subscriptions and they said, look, commissions are based on product sales. And the court said, well, just because you sell something doesn't mean it's not a pyramid. The products need to have value. And look, we've asked for all this data. We're going to get to the bottom of it and it's going to be out there because we're going to put it out there. I Want to direct a question to Sophie Sophia. I'm sorry I keep calling you Sophie Sophia. And you guys have a really, what appears to be a really good reputation out there. I've seen some of the following and some of the comments and people love you. And my wife and I have friends, usually not because I'm a good guy, but because my wife is a wonderful person. You strike me as sort of the heart of the Rashkin family. What has it been like for you to kind of have to deal with this, this lawsuit for a year?

Yeah, it's troublesome. You know, it's energy that could be put elsewhere. Obviously, I was, you know, Aaron and I thought we were what. We were doing what we always had done, which was marketing something additional. We had no intentions of changing our course with Wealth Masters. So it was disheartening for us when they terminated us. That put a financial burden on us and our children. And then to now come back and throw a lawsuit in our face when, you know, we did everything within our integrity to continue to do business with them and do what was right for us and our family. And as Erin said, you know, we stay within our integrity and we don't believe in cross recruiting. We believe in leaving people where they're supposed to be, and we did no such thing. So, you know, these things that, these arrows that are being thrown at us, it's kind of heartbreaking because we had put so much effort in our business relationship with them, and they were people that we had at the time trusted. And now to come back with this, you know, that's. That's disturbing to me that this, this, this is going on. Honestly.

Sophia, how old are your children now?

12 and 5.

Okay. Is your 12 year old on the Internet?

Yes, he is.

Okay. See, Kevin, that's another thing that I just, I hate because we get kids out there on the Internet and you get these companies and stuff and they do this, and then the kids have got to go back to the parents and say, hey, you know, daddy, do you do something wrong? Or mommy, did you do something wrong? And that's another reason these lawsuits are stupid. They affect the emotional psyche of kids just like they do the parents. And we need to, we need, that needs to be something we talk about in the future. Because it's not right that some of the stuff that goes on and it affects the kids. I want to go, I want to ask Sophia something else too, Sophia, how. I mean, I ads and stuff and you guys are truly, you build this as a family. But how active Were you in the business at the time with Aaron?

Yeah, I'm an active partner with Erin. And you know, we, we built our business in this industry with the intention of, you know, doing it so that we could be at home with our boys and family is very important to us and this is why we chose this route. So like I said, I mean, we do what we, you know, can that we believe is in our integrity. And when somebody comes back and, you know, wants to beat down our character and is out of integrity of what we believe, I mean, that's hard because Aaron and I are, you know, we are family people. We put our heart and soul into, you know, everything.

So I can understand that. Aaron, I want to go back to you for a second. I want to ask a question and try to, I mean, the attorneys may tell me I can't, but you were in Xango, which is a health and nutrition product. You made the decision to move to Wealth Masters International, which, number one, is not a health and nutrition product. Number two, looks like it has a higher product cost than Xango did. Now you use Carbon Copy Pro to help you build the business. Were you using Carbon Copy Pro prior to Wealthmasters or after you joined Wealthmasters?

We joined Carbon Copy Pro while we were in Xango and our intention was to build our Xango business with Carbon Copy Pro because it was an education based system. We were going to learn how to market on the Internet. We had never been online prior to that other than having a back office. In our old Xango business, we didn't generate leads or traffic or make sales really on the Internet except for through the company website that Xango gave us. When we found Carbon Copy Pro, our intention was to build Xango with it, but they didn't like that. So we decided to leave Xango. We resigned from Xango and we were Carbon Copy Pro members. Now Sophia is not going to toot her own horn here, but she really drives the leads, the traffic and leads for our business, our paid advertising comes from her. She does all paid advertising. I do all social media content creation, all of our blogs, all of our autoresponder follow up messages, promotions and really build and work with the team, team sites, training, things like that. She focused on driving the traffic and I focused on building the business. We have two different sides to our business, as every business does. We were Carbon Copy Pro members marketing the Carbon Copy Pro product line. They had several products in their product line. And then once we brought people into Carbon Copy Pro, we could have put people into Xango we could have put people into any product line or company that we wanted to. We could have introduced them to anything. We chose WMI at that time because that was arrangement that Carbon Copy Pro had with wmi. And that was. I wouldn't say that that was the only company that Carbon Copy Pro members marketed. There were dozens of companies that Carbon Copy Pro members marketed. And we chose to put our Carbon Copy Pro team into wmi or at least expose them to wmi, and they chose to be a part of it or not. Does that make sense, Troy?

That does make sense. Now, are you still using Carbon Copy Pro now?

No, not really. I mean, we haven't been active in that community in quite some time.

Quite some time. Okay, just so that the viewers know and basically because I love networkers, what business are you doing now?

We're in Empower Network.

Okay, so you're an Empower Network, which I think shows a track record, because I can go all the way back to Pro STEM and show where you guys have been in the education, you've been trying to help people. You try to build those teams. You use systems all along the way to build your primary businesses. So there was nothing new here. And it seems that if. Really seems, if WMI would focus on this, they'd realize that your MO has been the same, that you like to build teams, that you use outside sources to build that team and to give value. Now the question comes up, did, and maybe you guys can't answer this, but being that Carbon Copy Pro, more members than just you two were using Carbon Copy Pros. Have other people in WMI been terminated because they were Carbon Cop and Pro members also?

Yeah, they terminated I don't know how many, maybe eight or 10 of us.

And you guys. Can I assume that all of you were top earners in WMI at the time?

Yeah, yeah, we were.

Okay, so I could also, and this is an assumption on my part, but I mean, if you terminate somebody, you don't have to pay them commissions. Then if the company's already bleeding cash, that's just breakage in the comp plan. And it goes to the corporate offices. In this case, they use your money to sue you, I guess, is what it looks like.

You got that right. That's exactly what they did.

Yeah. That is breakage. When you terminate somebody. I tend to subscribe to Richard Brook, what he says, and he's like, look, if you leave a company and work somewhere else, don't expect a check from your prior company. I get that this whole multiple streams of Income, I'm not so sure if that has a place in the profession. But the idea of saying those are our people and suing them, especially under this sort of circumstance, when they started with a company and funneled traffic to wmi, WMI was at the end of the chain here.

Exactly.

It reminds me of an argument we had with Orin Woodward. That's where I got baptized in the industry. When Orin Woodward left Amway, we had a good argument. We said, look, people join team first, the support company first. Then from there, they enroll in the Amway business, literally on the application sheet, they sign the team contract first. Then they enrolled in Amway. And for Amway to say, well, we own those people, it was kind of a weak argument. Now, they were able to lick horn on a couple of other issues, but I don't know. Here's the thing.

I like these people.

I like Aaron and Sophia. They're good people. They have good hearts. I'm going to be candid. If somebody's going to screw with me, I can sense it. If somebody's going to lie to me, I can sense it. Aaron and Sophia have been good people. They're great people. They have a good track record, they have a good history. And they're being bullied. They're being bullied by the wrong company. Aaron and Sophia hired the right firm to take care of the issue, because we're going to make wealth masters earn every single inch they get, if they even get an inch. I'm hopeful for a resolution, basically just to cease fire. Let them go. Get on with your life. Get on with your business. Congratulations, you made some money, and best of luck trying to keep it. But if they keep poking at these people, they risk losing everything. It's that simple.

Well, I think that's a good point, Kevin. And I do think that this is a conversation that needs to get bigger and bigger, because case law has seemed to most of the time fall on the case of companies when it comes to the line of sponsorship. And in the old days, maybe that made sense because there were no outside systems. There were no way to generate, you know, and bring the people in. You talk to friends and family. You brought them to the company. That was it. But as you said, there's so many ways now that you generate and build your database, your personal team, whether it's using Carbon Copy Pro, whether it's using Empower Network, whether it's doing advertising and Home Biz Connection or Advertiser or anything else that's out there that they come to you first. And we need to, to probably carry on this conversation in the industry to say, wait a minute, we need to find some happy ground. I understand nobody wants their company rated. But for such a positive industry, when somebody like what Aaron and Sophia is going through and they're using another company, all of a sudden we go from being the most positive people under the sun to having the biggest scarcity mentality. Sometimes that's out there and we just, you know, it starts with Amway. Maybe that's the deal. Maybe Amway won so many cases that all these other companies now think, well, let's just sue all these distributors because we're going to win. And I do not think that's right. And I think it's a bad mark on our profession.

Well, we'll close with this. I think the market is demanding that these contract provisions go away. So you see a guy like Cedric Harris resign publicly from Visalis. He very tastefully, very respectfully said, look, I want to do other things. I don't like these restrictions and that video spread. So as networkers start to learn about these restrictions, companies will start eliminating them. Now companies need to sue sparingly, especially in state court and federal court. In this case, too, one thing worth pointing out, wealthmaster has partnered up with an Internet marketing firm. That's my understanding of it. That's how I think of ccp. The thing with Internet marketing firms is by snapping their fingers, they can direct traffic somewhere else. You cut that kind of deal, you assume the risk, period. We'll see where it goes. Troy, it's fun. Carl, I've done a lot of talking. Do you have any closing thoughts about where this case is heading and what you think?

Well, you know, I think with the counterclaim, we've set the stage with the pyramid scheme argument and we'll see how it plays out. But we're going to put their business model to the test in order to defend our clients because it's the right thing to do and it's the best way strategically to approach WMI's lawsuit. And so like Kevin said, they're going to have to earn every inch and we're going to hold their feet to.

The fire.

And defend the Rashkins as aggressively as it takes.

Well, I think that's the way it needs to be done. And I can say from watching again, Aaron and Sophia, over the last, it seems like a decade and a half every time that they've decided to leave a company. It's been very professional and I think that's important. There's a track record here. If every company had sued them for cross recruiting, then maybe WMI could say, well, wait a minute, look what they've done in the past. But that's not been the way it is. And I don't think that the company will probably even take it as far as they may have thought they would. I think with you guys on board now taking care of these two, that things will change. Without a doubt.

We hope so. Well, look, I started the conversation and I'll end it here. Thanks. I really appreciate it. Troy, I know you're a pro distributor man. I thought this is sort of a newsworthy event for distributors. It happens in the profession. It happens too much, in my opinion. You know, candidly, in rare circumstances, it's justified. It ain't justified. It ain't justified here. And I like these people. I like these facts. I like this case. We'll see what happens.

Well, we know what happened the last time you went through something like this, so this ought to be interesting. Yeah.

Took six months and they went under.

Yeah.

So. Well, Aaron and Sophia, I am proud of you guys. If I can ever help you guys, all you got to do is ask. Thanks so much, Troy.

I appreciate you, too.

Yeah, we appreciate that. Thank you very much.

You're very welcome.

See you.

All right, buddy.