Thompson Burton, Episode 1

All right, here we are. Episode one. Thompson Burton has officially launched, and this is our first executive meeting.

I guess you can say that's right. And I think we already made the decision that the executive committee meetings will.

Be here going forward, if they'll have us. Here we are at Cool Springs Brewery in Franklin, Tennessee. They've been very gracious to let us do this interview here, so if you get a chance, check them out again. Cool Springs Brewery in Franklin. So let's get started.

So it's been a long three or four months.

Yeah, absolutely. A lot of late nights, a lot of time on FaceTime, a lot of working with programmers and a lot of conversations. But the saying is that the best teacher is experience, and the best experience is somebody else's. So I have spent countless hours working out all that stuff with email and the invoicing stuff. So a lot of that stuff, we sort of have a head start, which is good, because when I first started my practice about two years ago, I was completely clueless. What you do is you take an imperfect idea and you commit to making it better. It just happens over time. So, yeah, we're gonna have problems, but we're committed to working them out.

I think that's good for a law firm to have someone that knows about technology. So I designate you as the technology partner.

I'm the computer geek.

Yeah, you're the IT Gu.

That's great. You know, we first met each other, I think, eight years ago, fall of.

2002, when we started law school.

That's right. We were classmates together, and I could tell immediately upon meeting. I remember, I think we hung out at Copper Cellar. Actually, I knew you were competitive, and it takes one to know one, because I competed at Tennessee and the decathlon. Very competitive. And I can just tell when somebody has those competitive juices.

Right?

So right then, I sort of recognized, okay, this is a guy that I kind of want to get to know better, at least maybe work together one day. And so that's kind of when I got the idea maybe this is a potential partner.

And I think the feeling was mutual. I think it's about that time that I heard the expression two bulls in a ring for the first time. Kevin and I were roommates in Knoxville during law school. And oftentimes we'd go over to the racquetball courts, and, you know, sometimes tempers would flare with one of other roommates, and, you know, Kevin would never get upset. It would always be, yeah, bulls in the ring, no big deal.

I never got upset because I Think I always won those matches.

Probably true.

And the person that really lost their temper was the other roommate, Dr. Wayne.

It's tough to compete with an all American decathlete.

I think now it's more of an even matchup because I'm really, really way out of shape.

That's good. I'll take advantage of the weakness.

Yeah. So we live together on Cherokee Boulevard.

That's right.

In that very special house.

That's right.

With a few roommates.

I believe we called that 749.

Yeah. 749 Cherokee. And I think we sort of talked back then about maybe someday we could start our own practice.

What it would be like. Yeah. What if someday we were to do this?

Yeah. And as events would unfold. I got married after our first year living together.

You sure you want to reveal this?

I do. It's okay. I talk about this openly because I was so broke. And I'm married for love, not money. I just said, sharon, we can't afford to live on our own. Why don't you just move in with us now?

And when you say with us, you mean me, our buddy Wayne, his brother Britt. Brit. And you and Sharon.

That's right.

All in one rental house and the dog spud.

And we made it work. We saved a lot of money. And so when we did graduate law school, I was able to buy a house. So that was the plan. But it was an interesting first year of marriage. But it should go to show you that when it comes to money, we're very efficient.

I think that's true. I would say frugal. You were frugal. Sharon was, I believe. I don't know if I'd say she wasn't miserable. Was she disappointed her first year?

Disappointed is the wrong word. She was a good sport about it.

She was.

But we managed. So we do our separate things. Let's go through the chronology of kind of what led us here.

Well, I think there's one thing. Law school. I think the one moment in law school when we knew, probably for the first time, maybe we had those feelings that we might do something. I think it was our third year of law school. We're working with Doug Blaze in the.

Legal clinic, who's fantastic.

Who's a fantastic guy. Probably taught us everything we knew in our third year. And we're partners in the legal clinic.

That's right. Just by luck of the draw.

Just by luck of the draw. No, I think they just appointed each of us with someone. And we had our first. Our first. Our first case, if you will. Right, yeah, yeah.

So the legal clinic, how it works is 30 year law students can represent clients under the mentorship of another attorney. And our mentor in that case was.

Doug Blaze, who's now the dean of the law school.

Who's now the dean of the law school and doing a fantastic, fantastic job. I'm such a fan of Doug. But our first assignment was, we can't give the name, but it was an old lady and in East Tennessee, somewhere in Fountain City.

That's right. She lived in. Well, she lived in a pretty reasonably priced place, I'd say, maybe lower cost place. And her landlord is what some people would call a slumlord. Right. And so she came to the legal clinic and it was hot. East Tennessee can be hot. And she had a problem with her H VAC unit and she had asked her landlord to replace the unit and he just wouldn't do it.

This was in August.

This was in August.

She also had a health condition.

So the legal clinic direction was, well, you need to go file a lawsuit and try to get her constructively evicted from her lease. Get her out of the lease. Well, we were called justice on wheels at the time because we weren't then and probably now. We were a little, A little, you.

Know, we focused on results.

We thought it would be better if we went out to meet with the landlord and try to convince him to put in a new H vac. So we go out to the apartment complex and we're standing out in the breezeway outside the manager's office.

Okay. Yeah. And we met with the lady first. We did. And we were assessing our strategies. And so we got the bright idea, well, let's just go talk to the guy.

And when we say assess the strategy, I think it was about 30 seconds beforehand. We said, okay, what's our strategy?

Right, right. So we go to the managers place wasn't the nicest of places. And I'm going to give you credit.

For this idea because it was my idea.

It was your idea. And you go, okay, here's the deal. And I was completely shocked when I heard this. Let's play good cop, bad cop.

Right?

I'm like, okay, let's see if it works. And the strategy was, I'm the bad cop, I rough them up, be the loose cannon, law student, nothing to lose. And Walt was the sensible one. Pull me off, talk some sense from the landlord, get this lady a new AC unit. At least that was the plan.

That was the plan. And I think it worked for a few minutes. Right? So we go in and we're speaking with the landlord and we asked him to install the new H Vac unit. We explained the problem. We explained to him that we went inside the unit, that it was at least 100 degrees in there, at least. And we said, what you're going to do now is you're going to go to her unit and replace the H Vac unit.

Right. It doesn't cost much money. I was the hot tempered one. He was pushing back. And I said, look, I'm a law student. I don't really care. We need the experience. I'll file a lawsuit. It'll cost a hundred dollars.

And I said, not so fast, Kevin. I don't know if we want to do this. Look, all we really want you to do is just install the new H Vac and what happened next?

Okay, so I'm picturing the scene. He's got this oxygen tank and, okay, I'm gonna quote him, he goes, look, this good cop, bad cop bullshit isn't gonna work with me. You guys get the hell out of my place.

So we left. But the good news is, as we're leaving, we're in the car and we look up and we see the guy wheeling the new H vac unit down the hallway. And he. So naturally we stopped the car and I think we snapped a couple pictures. And as he was installing the new H Vac unit. So I'd say our first case was.

It was very successful. It was very successful.

It was a little. A little different, probably strategy than most would take, but it worked.

You know, I've tried the good cop strategy after that, too, and it never seems to work as you plan it. And I always seem to be the bad cop.

Right. You gotta have the right combo.

But. Yeah. So the bottom line is we got a good result for.

Yeah.

That day, which is very rare when attorneys get hired and they get a result that particular day.

That's right.

Took some good pictures, got some good stories. And very cost effective.

Yes, very much so. And Doug, I think, was pleased.

Yeah. And so then we got the nickname Surprised but Pleased justice on Wheels, which I think is fantastic.

So here we are today.

Yeah, that was seven years ago.

That. Seven years ago. So when we. When we graduated, I think we both kind of went our separate directions. Right. You stayed in Knoxville at Lewis King, and I went to Atlanta, Troutman Sanders to do commercial real estate.

Yeah. We had to bake a little bit. And I'm a big fan of. I mentor these law students now at the law school. And I'm not a proponent of people launching their own business right away. You've got to develop some skills. So I worked at Lewis King, which is a fantastic law firm, very well respected in the state of Tennessee. Had some good experience. And then you went the big law route.

That's right.

Tell us about where you went.

Well, you know, during law school, you know, as, you know, you know, law students, we go through this interview process and you know, I was wowed by the big firm in Atlanta and I was lucky enough to be selected to be a summer associate in the summer of 2004. Had a great time. I think, you know, if you could die and come back as anything, right. They say you want to come back as a law firm summer associate. Well, probably pre great recession, you want to come back as a law firm summer associate because a great time. You get the best seats to ball games. You know, you get paid pretty well and you really don't have much responsibility. But yeah, I went down to Atlanta and they made me an offer in the fall of 2004 and I accepted it. So when we graduated, I head down to Atlanta.

Well, number one, it was a very competitive seat that you're competing for.

That's right.

They, it was Troutman Sanders, which is a very well respected firm, one of the biggest in the country, actually.

That's right.

And they pick what they consider to be the best and the brightest. And you went through that process and you won, essentially, you got the offer and you had some pretty amazing experiences early in your career, based on our conversation.

That's right. I mean, I went there because I've always had a fascination and interest in real estate. I can remember growing up in Murfreesboro, down the road, seeing the first skyscraper go up, if you call it a skyscraper, 15 stories. You know, it was the NHC, you know, the NHC building. I was just fascinated. So I think from that moment on, I always had a certain interest in commercial real estate. And so when I got to Atlanta and suddenly I see these 50 story skyscrapers and I start working on these amazing shopping centers and these office building developments. I was really wowed. And it was a great experience. I mean, I jumped at the chance. Yeah. So I mean, I was doing my commercial real estate development investments in Atlanta. And you chose to go a different route. Right. You stayed in Knoxville and went to Lewis King, Right?

I did stay in Tennessee, number one. Born and raised there and didn't want to go too far from. From home.

Memphis.

I was born and raised in Memphis. Yeah. And I had my mother's in Memphis and my brother was in Knoxville at the time. And so we decided to stay. And actually my wife was still competing. She was. And I still consider her an elite athlete. She was sponsored by Nike to run the 5k and 10k. And so she was still training with her coach in Knoxville. And so it just made sense for us to stay. So I took the job at Lewis King and I was doing insurance defense work and worked with Dick Krieg, who's just a fantastic guy, good mentor, and Glenn Walter. And I had really good experience when the idea sort of, sort of hit me to start my own practice.

So this was now, how far. How far into your practice at Lewis King was this?

About two years, maybe a year and a half. And I'm wired a little bit differently with sports. I competed in the decathlon, and when I got to Tennessee, there was.

And I think you were an All American, right?

I was an All American, 2002. Thanks for bringing that up. I had a good track career and I worked with good people. When I first got to Tennessee, there was four guys that were just amazing. They were just really, really good. Tom Pappas was one of them. He was a college record holder. Really good guy. Jamie Racy was very competitive. I'm going to give these guys some props. Grant Cleghorn and Pat Buckeye and those guys were at a very high level already and I was down here. And so I had examples of people that I wanted to be like that I could follow. They had what I wanted at the law firm. I really respected the people that were there, but I wanted a little bit of a better lifestyle, I guess you can say two weeks vacation a year.

Was it at that point you realized you weren't quite wired like them.

Correct, Right, correct.

Some people are able to go into a law firm practice and compete at a high level and bill a lot of hours. And they love it and they love every second of it.

Yep.

And the model works for them and other people, it just doesn't. So don't like big law.

That's right. So I wanted to kind of. I had a vision of being on my own, competing, closing my own deals, profiting from it and having the flexibility. And so I had to start my own venture again. That's just the way I'm wired. So that's when the seed was sort of planted in my head. It was about a year and a half. I realized, long term, five years from now, ten years from now, I'm not going to be where I want to be. So I had to take that chance. Now the flip side is you can take a chance and fall flat on your face and there's that fear was real, but you just have to trust your ability to compete and get better. I'm of the world view that success is sort of a formula. Some people disagree, but I feel like good habits compound over time and that eventually you do win. So I believe in that. So anyway, that's when the seed was planted. I looked at starting my own private practice actually in Knoxville, even though I wasn't even remotely ready. And an opportunity opened up in Michigan. I got the phone call from somebody to be an in house counsel for a company in Michigan. Good opportunity, really good experience and I took it. And so that was that particular. So that was 2007, I'd say that was late 2006.

Okay, late 2006. So you're heading up to Michigan, you've taken the job, I guess 2006. I'm in the middle of being a big firm, big law associate in Atlanta. I remember my first year, I built 2,300 hours. That's a lot of hours in the law firm world. That's a lot of hours. Luckily Melissa, we were not married. My wife and I were not married yet. So I was essentially married to the job I went in. I worked 16 hour days, five days a week plus probably weekends also and learned a tremendous amount from a lot of very talented lawyers at Troutman Sanders. And our clients, we have some real estate investment trust clients in Atlanta who were at that time was the peak of the real estate boom. And again we were, we were developing shopping centers all over the southeast. In fact we did one, we closed one down the road in Murfreesboro, the Murfreesboro Avenue. We worked on that project. There's one in Memphis called Carriage Crossing, there's a couple in Atlanta Avenue, webgen Avenue, Versyth that we worked on. But yeah, that was all pre great recession when real estate was booming and I was getting exactly what I was looking for in Atlanta. I mean that was big law, you know, big, big commercial real estate development. Loved every second of it.

That's cool. And you still like it. That's great. And out of those 2,300 hours, those aren't cheap hours either. You did pretty well.

That's right.

So at that point you weren't really looking. And I was pretty content in Michigan.

I was getting exactly what I bargained for in Michigan.

I was content. I had a client, I was in house Counselor for a company. And this is where I sort of was baptized in this industry that I'm in. I had a client who was one of Amway's top distributors, had 50,000 plus people in the Amway business. And there were some compliance issues between how he was building the business in Amway. And so for about a year I worked closely with Amway, learned about their business, learned about the laws that they were sensitive to.

And this business is highly regulated, very.

Highly regulated by the Federal Trade Commission, by the securities and Exchange Commission, by state attorney generals. And so Amway had some serious concerns about how things were being done. And that's sort of where I learned about direct sales. And most people don't realize this, But Amway started 52 years ago by two guys that were both door to door salespeople. And they figured out, hey, we think we can do this a little bit better. And today it's an $11 billion business. So. But going back, my guy had some challenges and it resulted eventually into a split and it was a pretty nasty divorce. Orin Woodward is his name. And he left and went over to a company called Monavie, another very large juice company in the direct sales space. And there was some nasty litigation. Amway sued him, he sued Amway. Lawsuits all across the country. It was a pretty nasty divorce that eventually got resolved, thankfully. And that was my baptism, baptism by fire. And so what really got me looking to start my own practice was I realized that as an in house attorney, the lifestyle is a little bit better. You got better hours, you get paid a little bit more money, but there is a glass ceiling. And I always tell myself, as I can build something, you know, I've got the skills to go out and compete and build something substantial. Number two, Tennessee was always calling me back home. You know, it's my home.

There's a certain gravitational pull to home. Right.

I love Tennessee. I've got a lot of roots here. I wear a ring with a T on it. Even though you're a Vanderbilt graduate undergrad and Tennessee graduate and a Tennessee graduate.

I have allegiance to both. It's complicated.

Yeah. My mother's here, my brother's here, my sister's here. I got family here. And I don't ever plan on leaving again. I wanted to get back to Tennessee. So when it came time to think about, okay, what kind of services can I offer? Everything was on the table, litigation, whatever.

So at this point you're thinking about moving to Michigan or you've already moved back?

I've already moved back. I'M sort of the fire ready, aim mentality.

Right. And I think I remember this time because I remember, you know, obviously we've stayed in touch on the phone over the years. And I can remember talking to you, and you had just moved down here, and it was you and Sharon and Spud and Spud and Luke.

Yeah.

And I believe a baby Sienna.

Sienna was on the way.

Sienna was on the way. So it was almost like 7, 4, 9 again. And, you know, you got. I can imagine you guys all in the apartment and you're trying to figure out what you're gonna do next.

Yeah. So I had what I call a fume date. I had money in the bank, and I had a certain period of time that I could get by. And so the. The questions I had to ask myself is, okay, what kind of services can I sell that are marketable? The thing about litigation is that at least what I was doing at Lewis King Couric Litigation, a lot of attorneys can do that kind of work. So it's a race to the bottom. The rates aren't that great. That's just reality. And so I was thinking, okay, what kind of niche do I have? And so I had this experience in direct sales. I had no idea how much demand.

There was, because you want to compete on service. You want to compete on what you. What value you give to the decline, not just price.

Right? Yeah, absolutely. So there needs to be a good ROE return on the effort. And so in direct sales, I had worked with, actually, attorneys that were familiar with the space. There weren't very many of them. And so I thought, I can compete with these guys and see what's happening.

I can remember actually, when you were in house counsel in Michigan, calling me at Troutman Sanders and setting up a meeting and coming down to Atlanta, and actually, we pitched you for some of that work.

That's right. Yeah. When I was in house counsel. That's right. And your guy did a really good job. It was just an unusual matter that.

It'S highly specialized, highly niche practice.

And there was a firm in Denver that specialized and had actually successfully represented clients in this particular situation.

And I believe a few minutes ago, you told me that that work actually.

Generated millions and millions.

Tens of millions in litigation fees.

Yeah. Millions in of dollars.

Troutman Sanders. I'm sorry, we didn't benefit from that. We tried.

Yeah, no, you guys made a really good effort. But there was a. Again, there was a guy in Denver that was very familiar with it, and that was sort of the strategy that we took. But yeah. So I put up a really crappy website, bought some Google Ads for some startup work because I knew there's a lot of startup Amway wannabe companies out there.

This is pre IT guy Kevin.

This is. This is the benefit that you get. You get to learn from my mistakes.

Oh, there's a reason we're partners.

That's right. So, yeah, bad website, Google Ads. And I got a phone call. I got a phone call within three or four days, thankfully. I mean, if that phone didn't ring for two weeks, I would have had to have reassessed and it would completely change the trajectory.

Who is your first client? Who called?

A guy named Rupert. Rupert called me from Seattle and he had a fuel additive type of company that he wanted to make sure was that he was operating legitimately. And then from there it snowballed, got another phone call, refined the marketing efforts, released some ebooks. I wrote a lot of ebooks, did some videos, and just did everything I could to get my message out there. And what I noticed was that the people with influence, they picked it up and they shared it. And all of a sudden I was creating a brand and I got in my rhythm and built a pretty substantial practice.

And now you're pretty influential in that space, I think.

Yeah. Depending on who you talk to. There's one guy that said I'm the top 25 most influential people in direct sales. Some people wouldn't put me in the top 50, but I do have a footprint. I'm part of the Direct Sales association, which is the largest trade association in the whole industry. And I'm on the Government Affairs Committee, which we oversee all the bills that are being introduced all across the country that affect the space, like door to door sales and home solicitation, all that sort of things. Those sorts of things. And also on the Ethics Committee because ethics are very important to me because you can have a business that's legally sound, but if it's not ethical, it's not something that I'm interested in being a part of.

Right.

And so the ethics committee makes sure that these models treat consumers appropriately. And so I'm pretty, pretty actively involved in that.

So here we are. Let's see. So I think you were getting established. We probably. I think the first time we started talking about Thompson Burton, even though it probably wasn't serious at that time, was March of 2010, I think. Right. It was your. I think I was your 30th birthday party.

It was. Yeah. Yep. I turned 30 and Sharon threw a party for me, which Was very kind of you to show up. It was a surprise party and we had a few drinks. If I remember correctly, we did.

We. We had a few drinks at Battleground Brewery.

It was Battleground Brewery.

We seem to be in breweries a lot.

Yeah, here we are, Cool Springs Brewery. And then we took the party over to Sol on the Square, you and.

Me and a couple of our other friends. And I think your sister and brother in law were there as well.

That's right.

And I think you were telling me about the success you were having, you know, one just being back in Franklin, how much you were enjoying it, the success you were having in this, you know, this field of law that you carved out for yourself and just telling me, man, how great it was to get home and how much you liked it.

It was more of a sales job, I was telling you that, but I was trying to get you to believe in yourself. And you weren't even asking for encouragement. But I knew without a doubt you were going to be partner at Trauma and Sanders. I mean, if there's something to be achieved, you'll do the work, you'll achieve it. So I knew you were on that track, but I wanted to convince you that you can compete. Like I knew without a doubt that Walt Burton, in the marketplace, you can compete with lawyers, you can profit substantially, and you can have a more flexible, fluid lifestyle. I was trying to kind of breathe that encouragement into you.

And I think about that moment that night, the seeds of doubt in my mind, even though I very much was enjoying Troutman Sanders learning a tremendous amount, I think the seeds of doubt kind of started to be planted then it's like, what if? Yeah, it was more. Well, even though. And again, even though we had always kind of talked about it, going back to our days of legal clinic, what would it be like if we. We started a law practice? I think at that moment there was, you know, I was a little curious, a little more curious. And I think, you know, to you, you always use this term because you're, you know, Tennessee athlete and you use, you hear this expression in the athletic department a lot. You say, walt, you're a Tennessee guy, you're going to come home. It's not a matter of if, but when. I know, similar to your. That feeling of that gravitational pull from Michigan to come back, you know, you knew. And I knew I had that, that feeling in Atlanta, whether I was repressing it or whether, you know, I was trying to convince myself that, you know, that is the life I wanted. And I wanted to stay in that, you know, stay in Atlanta and continue the course again. The seeds of doubt were. Were sown at that moment.

Well, you get, you get pretty strong factors because your wife's from here and her parents are here. So that by itself, need I say more? And her parents are fantastic people, by the way.

And now I have a two year old.

And now you have a two year old that you want to bring to Tennessee. And your father is here and he has had his own law practice. He's run his own practice. You grew up and he ran his own law practice.

That's right. I think one of the most interesting things about when I got to Travis Sanders, I noticed, well, our experience was my conception of what law was all about was seeing my dad go to the courthouse every day practically in Murfreesboro and advocate for his clients. Right. That's what being a lawyer in my mind was all about. Even, you know, up to the moment I graduated from law school, I mean, I knew I was gonna be doing commercial real estate, but I didn't. I think I didn't truly understand what being a transactional lawyer versus being a pure trial lawyer was about. So, you know, when I got to Troutman Sanders, you know, being a transactional lawyer is about being in the office negotiating contracts, closing transactions, and advising your clients on all the collateral issues that are related to that. So if you're a transactional lawyer, you go to court very rarely, if ever. So for me, that was eye opening and it showed me that, again, practicing law is more than just being in the courtroom. And I think you have had that same experience in your practice.

No, right. Without a doubt. It's more. I did the advocacy route because I always saw myself as being somebody that likes to argue. But as it turned out, I didn't really enjoy it a whole lot. And there's a need for that in the marketplace. I work with litigators, but I love business. That's one thing I've learned is that when my athletic career ended, okay, where else can I compete? And I compete in business. And I love working with competitive people like you. And I like working with competitive entrepreneurs. People that are just crazy enough to think that they can launch their own companies, that they can change the world, that they can sell a unique product that can have an impact on somebody's life. And people that they put up with the criticism, they put up with the doubt, and they still move forward. I love that.

I love that.

And so to be a part of that, it's fun for me.

Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes in law you're tasked with dealing with problems. Right. And it's not every day that you do get to work with people like that. And I for one, you know, as part of Thomas and Burton, look forward to working with more entrepreneurs and, you know, venture startups, et cetera. I think it's going to be a lot of fun.

Well, that's. It goes to our tagline that we came up with. Right. It's redefining the art of law. Because law isn't a science. It's convoluted, it's complex. Sometimes it's very esoteric and old. And the art is somehow sifting through that information and presenting it to a client to get them the result that they need. That's the art. And so we want to make sure we have a firm culture that keeps that in mind and very sensitive to that and that we understand the client's needs as far as a business owner, that our job is to provide information and get out of the way and let them run their business and make good decisions.

Right. So we talked about March 2010. We're at your 30th birthday party. We're at Battleground Brewery. We had gone across the street to the other establishment in downtown Franklin. And I think your sister was there, your brother in law and our buddy Wayne. That's right, yeah, Sharon. And Sharon was there. And Melissa, I wish she could have been there. I think she was at home watching our baby. Well, let's see, he was probably three or four months old. Liam. So anyway, we're at the bar and I think we were starting to talk about what would it be like if we did do a firm in the very conceptual stage. What would it be like? What would it look like?

Right. We sort of. We didn't have the minutiae figured out and that's taken a lot of time. But what I was firmly convinced of is that if you read Jim Collins book good to great, he says you get the right people on the bus first, then you figure out where to go. And I knew you were the right partner to have. And even after we started the conversation to get this firm going, your commitment to learning and reading and coming up with new ideas has really been impressive. So I've actually been more excited as the process has developed. We knew that there was the recession of going on. So we knew that every single industry was being disrupted, every single sector. The question was, is the legal space being disrupted? And if it is, is there opportunity? I'm of the Mindset that and some people will just violently disagree with me. But these are very exciting times because the rules are being rewritten. You can start from scratch. The old legacy models, they don't work any. They don't work like they used to.

And so maybe things are starting to break down a little bit.

Right, right. So there's opportunity for people to innovate, make things more efficient and compete.

And I think one of the things we talked about that night is I was telling you what I was seeing in Atlanta from a legal standpoint of what is the Great Recession causing for our real estate clients? What are we seeing? And I was talking about our firm's losing some of our leasing work to cheaper competitors. Right. They've got lower cost models, they are doing some of the work that we used to do and they're competing differently. Right. And we were talking about how that was changing the industry. And I think you were telling me about how you actually have a home office.

Right.

And you actually do not have office space. And you haven't had office space up until now because you just haven't needed it.

Right.

And even when we were talking about Thomson Burton and you know, what's it going to look like and where would we have our office if, you know, if we were to move forward with it? You know, I think I said, well, we've got to have office space, right. And you said, you don't need it.

Well, not immediately. Now eventually maybe we do. And that's a separate conversation. Where is it a traditional office space in a high rise building or do you have eight lawyers and four workstations and you just, you go in there and you get your work done at a particular spot. That's a different thing that we have to, will eventually work out. But for my practice, it's very project based. Clients want a specific result and as long as you deliver the result in a timely fashion and you're always approachable and reachable, they're happy. And if you go to the website, I'm a big proponent of testimonials. I know you're racking up testimonials right now. I've got over I think 40 on my website of just satisfied client testimonials because what they want is they want a particular result. So, you know, on the one hand, clients are more sophisticated now than ever before. That's just a reality. I mean, that's a given. Everybody agrees with that. I've got clients that are doing their own agreements, they probably shouldn't be and they do that before they call me, but they're very advanced. They get on Google and the information is there. Whereas before, lawyers were the gatekeepers. You want the result, you have to go through us to get it. And because of that, you could charge whatever you want. So recognizing that clients have that increased capability, that's step one. And then having operations to where you can deliver the result that they need in a timely fashion, that's certainly part of the equation.

As you're kind of describing that, it brings two things to mind that I know we've talked about a lot in the last three or four months as we talked about where is this going? And it's one. We both know how things have always been done at law firms, right. You know, from being at Lewis King, how that law firm is structured and, you know, what did you like about it, what you didn't like about it, and what things about it would you change if you could start from day one all over again, knowing everything you know now and redesign the law firm? Right. Same thing for me at Troutman Sanders. If I could start day one and if, frankly, all the, you know, very talented people that are at Troutman Sanders could start from day one and design a law firm from scratch, how would it be? We, of course, have that opportunity today. We can. We can learn from the past and what we know about the present and future to design something that can compete on a very high level.

Right. Which is exciting. When we started talking compensation, we started diving into minutiae, and this is now.

And when we started talking about this, this is probably. So we've moved on just to set the stage. We've moved on from. This is not. We probably couldn't have talked in this detail back at your 30th birthday party, but probably over that year, again, the seeds had been sown. You and I were, I know, both thinking about it, and I know we talked on the phone several times that year. Probably it was September of 2011.

That's correct.

When we really started talking in detail about doing this.

That's when I made the phone call.

That's when you made the phone call. And I think. And I think I told you we had had several conversations, your birthday party. And then I know we had met a couple times in Atlanta. You had been down for conferences or whatever, and, you know, I think you stayed at our house usually, and we'd always go out and have a good time. But, yeah, that year, 2011, I was really struggling with this decision. This gravitational pull of Tennessee was kind of having Its effect. I was starting to feel that you obviously were encouraging that, you know, if there was someone throwing flame on gasoline on the fire, it was you. And about September, August or September, Melissa had told me, enough, enough. Make a decision. I don't want to talk about it anymore. I don't want to analyze it anymore. Just make a decision whether you're going to stay here and put your head down and, you know, and stay the course and succeed in what you're doing, or are we going to make a drastic change in direction, move home, and, you know, see what happens? And about that time I dropped Liam, I remember very clearly that morning in September. I dropped Liam off at his school in Buckhead, and I'm driving down Peachtree on my way to my office, which I'd done many times. And I remember thinking to myself on that drive, you know, I'd had those conversations with Melissa, and, you know, I was like, I need to see a sign. I need something to. To give me some direction here. And I've been struggling with this so much. I need to know, you know, what am I supposed to do here? About that time, maybe 30 seconds later.

The phone, yeah, that's pretty amazing. And, you know, in your situation, you were at such a great place that I could definitely understand that you were afraid of losing a lot, because you had a lot. You had a great lifestyle. You had a good job.

Absolutely.

And most people, I think they protect, and my instinct is constantly build and improve. And your credit, you went for it. So what led me to the phone call was I was meeting with a client locally, and it was something that was right up your alley, and I couldn't do the work. I turned it down. It was a good file. And I thought, it's time for Walton. I get together because we can meet with people across the state, and there's some good synergies there. And I said, enough, enough. It's time to actually squeeze the trigger. I pulled over, I gave you a phone call and says, what do you think? We'll just go ahead and do it. And you didn't immediately dismiss the idea. You didn't immediately commit, but I knew I had you. You said, I'll get back to you. And you said, actually, this is really good timing. And just knowing you and how competitive you are, I knew that you do the math. And it needs to be said that, unlike me, when I started day one, you're profitable, right? Which is pretty. Which to me is absolutely amazing. You've already got work lined up for Monday, so I Think. There's no doubt about it. You're gonna do really well.

And one thing I want to say about my experience at Troutman Sanders is I enjoyed every second of it. And I left there not because, you know, of any of that I perceived any deficiency or that I wouldn't have a great life in Atlanta, because I would have had an amazing life. But it's not home. And despite having a lot of close friends there and, you know, my family can obviously come to visit again, it's not the same as being down the street. And as you know, we've got our farm here, and. And, yeah, just the roots are in Tennessee. The more I thought about it, the more it made sense to move home.

I'm of the opinion that everybody needs to carve out their legacy. We all need to have our masterpiece. And I'm not gonna sew sweaters, you know, I'm not gonna run a brewery. But I do understand the legal business. And so if this is where it's gonna happen, this is where it's gonna happen.

That's right.

And I'm glad we're partners. My grandfather ran the Miller distributorship in Memphis, and he did a great job, very well respected, ran a great business, and I was proud of him. And by seeing him and how he operated, I always wanted to own my own business. So regardless of the law firm, model is great, but you're building somebody else's business. That's right. I want to take my chances because I know without a doubt, we're going to build a very big and profitable and scary business.

So I call you probably, what, two or three weeks after the phone call, and I say, look, I've met with Melissa, who is obviously very influential, and we discuss these big decisions. And I said, we had thought about it, and I decided to make the move. The scariest thing about making a big decision about this is telling. Telling someone else, right? Because then you're locked, right? You're committed, and, you know, you can't just change it on whim. So at that moment, I was committed. Yeah.

And what'd I tell you, though, during that call? Do you remember? So you told me, okay, you made the commitment, you made the decision. You don't remember this? I said, well, when you make the decision, make the decision once. Cause I sensed a little bit of reservation. I've been there when you vocalize what you want to do, you're like, well.

You know, when you're leaving something that not out of weakness, right. I didn't feel like I was Leaving something out of weakness. I left because I saw something better. Yeah, right. So I'm leaving a good situation for a great situation. And you know, sometimes it takes time to figure that out, but eventually, you know, I made the decision.

But you did. You made the decision once and we.

Committed and then we met. We met, I think we met in a coffee shop in downtown Franklin and we talked about it and we started forming the base of what would become Thompson Burton pllc.

That's right. And that's sort of the, that's what's forced us to think creatively about the model. Because there really isn't a lot of synergy between what you do with commercial real estate and banking transactions and what I do with direct sales. So the thinking was, well, I want to give you a piece of what I'm bringing in and I don't deserve a piece of what you're bringing in. So how do we build a model that's fair? So with that kind of foundation, I think we're in a really good position and we have a good formula. We don't need to go into it right now. But you and I, as business owners, we make money as the organization grows.

Right.

And to grow it, we've got to attract top, top talent. To do that, I think we're going to offer a more generous compensation structure for attorneys. More incentivized, more incentivized, merit based, performance based, win win partnerships. This whole idea of, and again, nothing wrong with the long term law firm model, but of hiring associates and putting them on a hamster wheel and just having them turn out dollars. I want people that will buy into the vision, people that take ownership of their own personal work, take ownership of their business.

Right. And I think to some degree, because of the Great Recession, the big law firm models have broken down a little bit and some of those incentives that they may have had in the past aren't working anymore. And also, just as you know, in a big organization, you know, it's tough to address people that kind of fit outside the box. Right. So if you have associates that are working harder and billing more and bringing in clients, I think sometimes they don't know what to do with them. And I think one thing that you and I both agree on about this, about Thomson Burton is we want to incentivize not just partners, but also associates. And I think, you know, in the last week or so, I think we both have agreed we're willing to blow up the compensation structure of traditional law and incentivize and look if they make.

More money than us, there's nothing wrong with that. We're not wedded to an older model, so to speak. We have more flexibility and we can certainly try new things with our compensation model, which I think is going to be very appealing for attorneys to attract top talent. And we can also do things with just our work culture. One of the things I was reading about that I'm really anxious to try is this whole idea of ro, right. It's the results only work environment and Best Buy is currently doing this. And basically it's more project based. You get a certain task, you don't have to show FaceTime at the office. As long as the work gets done right, you're in good standing. As long as the client is happy, everything lives and breathes on client side. Effectively.

They're gonna vote, they're gonna vote with their feet, right? Correct. If they're happy with what we're doing. If they, you know, if again, we're willing to try to do new things. Right? The row concept, we're willing to try new incentive concepts and fee concepts. I think you've mentioned to me several times that most of your work is through fee arrangements with clients. And even though big law firms. And I said, well, most law firms live and die by the billable hour. And you know, and there obviously is a use for that at times we're not wedded to that.

Right.

We're willing to try whatever works and whatever makes sense for the client.

Right. And again, if it's hourly basis, then that's what you got to do. But my experience, what I found is that when you're giving consultation to a client, you want them to have open access to you. You want them to be able to call you without worrying about the meter. And so if they commit to a monthly subscription, so to speak, or a monthly retainer, they're going to call you, they're going to use your services more and they're going to be more happy.

And talking about getting, you know, communicating with you. Obviously there are more ways to communicate than just the phone and email, you know, and I think we're willing to try all of those. Right? Whatever works, whatever is, whatever the client wants, right. If they want to communicate by text message, then that's how we'll community.

That's what you do, and I do that often, or Skype even. You meet them at their level to help them advance their business. Another thing that I've learned with my business is that people call it social media and it almost seems like A fad. I mean, instead of using the word social media, just call it business. It's just the way business is being done. And so having a strong presence on the web where you contribute as much value as possible in the relationship before there's even a transaction, that's the whole point of social media. And so we're committed to that. Instead of having practice areas because nobody's ever interacted with a practice area, we're gonna try what we call brands, right? We have individual brands focused on certain areas of the law, and they're gonna create and add value for real estate and commercial law.

So currently we have. I'm gonna have a commercial real estate brand and that website. If someone lands there, they're going to know immediately they're in the right place because it's going to be about commercial real estate and it's going to be pretty obvious. And if they land on your page, they're going to know they're dealing with direct sales, mlm, entrepreneur law, and they.

Can even learn what they want. Maybe they don't hire me, but that's okay because I'm a big believer that you provide value first. The compensation comes later. So we have that flexibility, which is really, really exciting. Number one, the question is, are we committed to learning that's step one in any kind of leadership climb? And the answer is yes, you know, we are both committed to learning. I've given you a couple of books to read. I'm reading books and we're having really interesting conversations about how to make this thing, this little lump of clay that we have. I'm optimistic and I'm excited.

As am I. And I think all these things we've been talking about the last few, few months. Here we are today. We signed some documents earlier and I think Thompson Burton, PLLC is officially open for business.

We're open for business. Thompsonburton.com today is day one.

That's right.

So special thanks again goes out to Cool Springs Brewery for opening up their place and letting us use it. Fantastic people. You should come here and have a beer sometime. With that being said, we're going to be on the lookout for more communications like this, this, and you all take care of.