Fuck External Validation with Roger Fishman #7

Hello, everybody. This is David Goldsmith. And welcome to another edition of Redefining Tomorrow, where we're going to be exploring different ways that you can change your future through amazing individuals around the world. Today we have a very good friend and an amazing person on the phone. His name is Roger Fishman. How are you, Roger?

Excellent. Excellent, my friend.

Thank you.

The topic you and I had agreed upon, which is probably the most. It's a very different topic in the way you delivered it. It is fuck external validation. And when you said it, I was a little surprised would I want to.

Do a program like this?

However, I know you well enough, I think you're going to be brilliant. I think you're going to help me a lot and help anybody who's listening. So do you have a few bullet points that we're going to be following or an outline?

Yes, I do.

Okay. Can you give them to me so I can write them down?

The first one I would start off with is possibility versus probability versus probability.

Okay. Next.

The next. The next one is simple. Know yourself and know your motivations.

Okay. Next.

And the next would be create and embrace today, in the future.

Today and the future. Next.

Less is more. Meaning, literally, less is more. So less bullet points, more discussion into each of those. Okay.

And the next.

The less is more is part of. As part of all of this.

All right, and the next. That's it?

That's all you got today? No, no, no, that's good.

That's good. So I want to. I want to bring up very quickly to those who are listening, why, Roger, you're on the phone. And this is a great list is that. Roger and I met at the Global Technology Symposium event. We had an amazing time together. He invited me to his home. We did many walks and talks. And this is definitely a. Roger. So let's start with your number one probability and probability.

Look, it's a pretty, to me important framework because a lot of our brains are focused on probability. Because our brains want, generally speaking, they want consistency, they want safety, they want to know the consequences of their behavior and of others. Probability is about having a good sense of where you are, where things are going and what to expect. This with probability is a lot of it is imposed also by society about what you should be, who you should be, how you should be. And when you start to add all these different elements of external components, societal expectations, family and friends, considerations, you start to get more into the probability world because you're being given symbols, signals, very direct cues about what is important. And that starts to shape what you choose and how you choose to do things. That's actually really important. Those are really helpful things as well, because it gives you context, right? And we all want and need some level of context and familiarity. So we know that today and tomorrow will be somewhat similar, it'll be somewhat safe. And if I do certain things in my life, certain things will happen. But sometimes built into that is the minimization, inadvertently, of course, of exploring who you are and what motivates you and what you might want to do with your life and what is possible. And so we start going down a path of, well, you know, I need to have this degree in school. I need to have this kind of grades. I need to go to this type of school, to wear these type of clothes. I need to do all these things because these are the definitions of success. And if I do these things, these things will probably happen, and then my outcome will be good. That's how we get rewarded, often both personally and professionally. Yet there's another path. And they're not necessarily mutually exclusive, by the way. They can run parallel. But often we don't give ourselves a chance to. To swim inside of our souls, inside of our spirits, inside of our desires and passions, and say, what's possible? What would I like to do with my life if I could really just stop and look beyond the surface. Like when you look in a mirror, look beyond the surface of the mirror and say, what is it that I dream of, I desire? That is not about the probable, but about the possible.

So are you trying to tell me that you start with the probability typically, or do we start with.

I think that's how. I think our species encourages us to focus on the probability. And I think in many regards, it's really, really important. Right? You need to know certain things about how societies work. So you can stay within certain contexts and frameworks legally, right? Socially, you want people to follow certain rules. Those are things that are really important. So we're not talking about governments, we're not talking about, you know, corporations. We're talking about individual human beings.

I'm going all the way back to being a child and being born. So my parents would have instilled in me possibilities. They're going to say, you could be anything you want. You could be an astronaut, you can be a doctor. Well, actually, being Jewish, you had to be a doctor or a lawyer. But let's assume that there was a lot more options out in the world today. So you are given possibilities, but society is. Pushes on to that probabilities and overlays.

I think what happens. Look again. Let's remember we're having a discussion. There's 8 billion people and there's 10 trillion and trillions of different ways to look and feel and see things. So I think that there's a lot of parents who say to kids, you can be anything, but make sure you get a job, make sure you can pay the bills. You know, that's highly unlikely that you're going to be the one to go do that. And a lot of times parents do that not out of anything, but they want their child, they want their child to be safe and protected, right? We all want our kids to have a better life than us, whatever that means. And often, I believe we tend to walk away from what's inside because we're encouraged to focus on the probability. Like, oh, you need that nice house. You need to be able to provide this. You need to be able to do this. You know, this will tell people that you're important or powerful, right? That's the validation of why do, why do people seek power? And then you say, okay, but what's inside that? They want you to seek possibilities. Now, this isn't true for everybody, right? But there are a lot of people, you know, you get, you wake up one day, whatever age, and you go, oh my gosh, what am I doing with my life? What is it that I really want to do? And often, not always, but often what you really want to do is a possibility, meaning there's not a guaranteed outcome of it.

So the way I'm looking at it, from the way you're saying it, is that we as humans, and I'm going to use a 7.5 or 8 billion people planet, we put a large majority of our future into the bucket of probability, knowingly or unknowingly because of the circumstances around us. And that there's this whole other category of possibility that is not explored as often. Is that a good way to say it?

Yes, I think that that's a great, great summary. And I think it's because possibility is just that, it's uncertain. It also therefore has perhaps more fear based into it. And people go, is the outcome going to be worth it? But with possibilities, it really is more about the journey, truly about the journey. Because if you do something, as Carl Jung once said, that it's your vocation, okay, it becomes a reflection of who you are. And you have no other choice but to pursue your calling. And a calling is about possibility, okay? Means you're pursuing something that is core to who you are, and with that, you don't know where necessarily that will take you. That doesn't mean, by the way, that's a better life. We're not talking about better. We're just talking about this notion of possibilities and probabilities and some things in life you want probabilities, But I always start at the end and I think back, okay, when I get to be 80, 90, when I'm on my deathbed, what's the life I want to have led? One where I always search for the probability, or one that was a wonderful mix and blend of possibility and probability. Is it one that I've chosen and I've chosen and created, or one that's been sort of framed and influenced, and I won't say dictated, but framed and directed by external parties?

So I guess the question that's racing through my mind is when or how did you realize the simplicity of these two words for you? Was there a moment where you said, oh, my God, this is it? Is the. This is what I didn't realize growing up, or did you know it your whole life?

No. I think inside of me, I've always felt it. Yet I chose, when I was younger, a path of more probability. And I knew at the same time there was this deep drive, deep desire to focus on the possibility. But honestly, I had fear. I had fear and anxiety and concerns. You know, I grew up in a broken household. We were financially poor, especially after my father. My parents got divorced and my father died. So, you know, my motivation was to be able to make sure that I lived differently as I got older. But underneath it all, I knew that there was this. This life I wanted to go create. And there are different lives I wanted to create. And I knew that eventually I would have to bet on myself. And to me, that's the best possibility in life, is to believe and bet on yourself with good reason. Because if you don't bet on yourself and believe in your possibility, nobody else will. So I've always.

I do. I love this, and I love the simplicity of it. So I'm trying to find the answer in you. Like, was there a. Was there a day you woke up and said, these are the two words, not that you didn't have them in you, but that you took a complex cultural, societal, structural system and you said, oh, my God, I could just break it down into these two. Possibility and probability?

Yeah. Yep. You know, I'll tell you the person. I've always felt that. But there's a person who framed it for me, and he wasn't talking at all about this per se, but an amazing human being. A lot of people will either know him or know of him. If they don't, they should research him. Is a gentleman named Peter Guber. And Peter has an amazing history in the entertainment industry, in the sports industry. He is one of the most innovative, dynamic thinkers, one of the most successful people in terms of end result as well. But when I had my. The opportunity actually to engage with him and get to meet him, he named it in a way where I go, that's what I've been feeling my whole life. So yeah, I would say, what did he do?

I know Peter. I know I have. Peter's in Paid to Think in the book. So my question, what did. Peter's an amazing individual and he's done amazing things. What do you remember the story? Do you remember how he phrased it? Do you know how the light went off?

We were just talking about a project and he was explaining how he was thinking about it and that's how he framed it. And literally when he said was like a lightning bolt, I went, oh my gosh, that's my whole life, what I've been thinking. And you know Peter, he is sort of just this genius.

Yeah, he's a storyteller. But behind that storytelling is. He's got this. The word that comes to mind is warped, but it's not warped. It's a. He sees a different reality in a similar situation that other people wouldn't see. And that's how what is. He owns the basketball team, the San Francisco. He owns a baseball team. He started what Mandalay Entertainment and things, which is with Tom Cruise. I'm trying to remember the movies that we all know from him.

But to answer your question, when he said that, those two words about this specific project, that's what resonated with me. I thought and I felt right away that's how I feel, heal and view life. And again, it's not a V shaped decision making process. They can often run parallel paths. Part of the notion here is to know when you want and need probability and when you need to explore possibility. So it's having that sensibility and consciousness and of intention that's really helpful.

So how did you. You heard the words or you heard them inside of you and he broke it down and then you got this epiphany and how, how did you change? Did you sit down and make a list? Did you start to talk about it with other people? What helped you to gain clarity in this space?

You know to me it's less about. For me, it wasn't about clarity, it was about commitment, clarity, conviction to one's dreams. You know, again, I go back to this notion that our brains are created honestly for safety, right? To minimize and mitigate risk. To know what tomorrow is going to look like and have a sense to feel safe in that environment and productive, right? That is what every living creature wants. They want to prosper, they want to thrive. And most people though their brain, the chemicals in their brain say, okay, great, do that. But do that in a way where you're minimizing risk, right? You're minimizing lack of safety. And so to me, it was one I always knew from an early age. I lost my grandfather, who I adored completely, who my son is named after, and I lost him early. I saw my parents of a bad marriage early, early in life and it's quite frightening. And I saw their divorce happen, my father dying, the lack of money. I saw these things and I realized at an early, early, early age, probability may be real for most people, but it's not in my case. You know, I realized that the opportunity was the possibility. And I think what happened is I, I was motivated to create a different life, but I wasn't motivated to create a life that was necessarily my most true. And part of that is because I didn't have exposure to the world I didn't know. So I thought, okay, how do I create my life that changes where I've come from, right? Gives me a better future based on how I see the world. But remember my vision of the world, it was like, almost like a peephole.

So I'm, because I have a little bit of the curse of knowledge and we spoken a lot. I'm going to try to bring this because I don't remember the full stories, but you had wanted the possibility. And the possibility was to create a career that you didn't think you might have had, which also gave you the probability of stability. And through that and through that career, maybe you can remind me again of that career. And then you made a choice. What I remember is you made a choice one day to walk away from it all and to go more possibility wise. So what I'd like to know is how that journey happened and where did Peter Guber fit in? Like where's the point? Was the point after you made the choices or before you made the choices?

You know, I made a lot of, you know what I'm, you know what.

I'm talking about the story of you walking away from your job. I didn't know if that happened after Peter or before Peter. And. And the.

Well, it depends. Well, I always felt like I was walking and going towards something better each time I moved my life. You know, I had a lot of different jobs in the US overseas, and in each position, I was fortunate enough to do three things. One, improve my overall. I'll say, financial position, my overall career challenge and opportunity, and more importantly, to work with great people. So, you know, another person that I worked for that changed my life for the better was a gentleman named Peter Chernin. I worked for Peter for three years, and he was the former president of Fox News Corporation, and I worked for him as head of worldwide marketing. And that gave me even more exposure to possibilities and the culture that Rupert created and his sons, who I work with, and for Laughlin, more so I saw that possibility was actually how they lived, and that inspired me even more to go explore that arena. So each place I went to kept refining, evolving me, inspiring me, and pushing me more towards possibility because I saw more and more what was possible. So I think that part of my job now just, you know, for my son and for people I meet is to expand the universe so they can see more of what's possible. And that's the answer your question. I found what was possible before I met Peter Gruber, after I worked for Peter Chernin, and I had already started my own business.

Okay. So he just. He helped to clarify that. That positioning. Yet you were. I don't know. It's a funny question. I. Why do some people go so far one way and so some other people go so far the other? In terms of the sitting on that fence with those two words?

Well, I. Look, I think it's. It's. Look, let's be honest. There's a lot of fear in the world, right? In our brains, there's a lot of fear. Will I be accepted? Will I be good? Will I be respected? Will I achieve my goals? Will people think I'm great? Will people think I'm a failure? Well, you know, it's a lot of that in our. Sometimes in our heads, right?

Oh, it's very much in our heads. Right.

And.

Well, that's my point, which is. But the real question to me about possibility is, you go, but will I be happy? Will this be a life worth living that I feel good about? And why versus will other people think. Once you get rid of that external validation of what will other people think? And most of us have it, we can deny it, but most of it have it.

Absolutely.

So then if you start to say, well, wait a second, what do I think? If I'm on my. And I mean this, if I'm on my deathbed, what do I feel about the life I just led?

I wish that deathbed scenario is delayed gratification type. Look backwards. And I don't know if it's that easy for people to really get their mind around what that means, which I think is your point number two. Know yourself and your motivations.

Right. And it shouldn't be, by the way, it shouldn't be easy. You know, at one level, you go, oh, it should be, you know, our species and our culture and our micro cultures and our subcultures and our. We have family cultures, friend cultures, business cultures, societal cultures, government. And we have all these different worlds that we all live in. We live in many different worlds all at the same time, right? There's a reason why we dress differently when we go to work than when we stay home.

Right?

Because we are playing in different arenas. We are behaving differently in those arenas. That's why I say to people, look, you know, if you treat your family, your spouse, your kids like you treat your client or your dog, you'll have an amazing life. Right? Yes.

You give them a lot of attention. You're willing to do extra things for them. You'll take them out for dinners or you'll greet them at the door. You do all the things that you would never do for your family.

Yeah. So I go, that. That's not so. It's not complicated. You know, the truth is, I always think we complicate things.

Did I lose you?

No, I'm right.

We complicate things and you stop. So I didn't know if I lost you.

No, I think it's as simple. We do it to ourselves, so, you know, do all I need that. That's like, why do we. Why do we need. So look, Elon Musk just claims he's walking away from all his homes and selling everything. Now, I'm not saying he's the role model for everybody and there's only one Elon Musk, but it at least makes you consider, like, what is the purpose and value of stuff or anything? Have you ever bought any. Have you ever bought anything truly that you bought to impress somebody else? Was the first question. And then when you did that, you felt it was a worthwhile decision.

Felt it was worthwhile and not worthwhile. Okay, I'll give you an example. And I know exactly. While living in Hong Kong, I had to go to Bangladesh. And I had to fly through Hong Kong. And on my way back, I said, I'm going to walk through an entire mall just to make sure that the choice of the watch I was going to make was the one I really wanted. And I bought a watch because everybody in Hong Kong said watches are extremely important in terms of your image in town. And it was. People looked at your watch as a male. And I remember buying the watch and it was very expensive. And I'm walking out and I hit one of those escalator metal pillars that are put up to stop you from bringing a cart down. And I put a big gash on it. And I walked 20 meters, 50, 60ft, and I put a big gash on it. And I said to myself, did I buy it for somebody else or did I buy it for me?

Right?

And then also I lived in Hong Kong. I had 40 square meter, which is about 400 square feet of apartment. And my home in the United States is 4,000 square feet of 400 square meter. And, oh, my God, I live just fine in this tiny little hole where here I have such a huge house. So, yeah, I do feel that there are decisions made all over that. I look back and said, why? I don't know if I answered it.

By the way, but isn't that fascinating? Because you have to. You have to deal with the reality in different worlds. Like, you can say, well, I don't care. I'm not going to buy a nice watch. I don't care. But you want more of a probability at that time. You want people to think, okay, if that's part of the game and those are part of the rules, I'm gonna. I have to play by those rules. And by the way, completely understandable, completely acceptable. But it wasn't necessarily your game and your rules. It was, I've got to go do this if I want to achieve that.

And it was. It was Michael Shriver from Duty Free Shops had worldwide operations. I remember sitting at. At lunch and he said, where's your watch? And I said, well, I'm not really interested in a watch. He said, no, no, David, you don't understand. A watch is a sign of status. Here. You have to have a watch. And I had never thought about that. So I ended up getting a watch. But at one point, I stopped wearing a watch. And I said, what difference does it make? People have to like me. They want to. Can I deliver value without a watch? And very, very interesting thought process, yes. So I've had that absolutely right and.

There are some people, by the way, who have to go get that watch because truth is, without it, they won't feel confident. They'll feel like they're at a deficit. And there are some people who get the watch and they go, you know what? It's part of the game. I get it. It's just, it's a speed. I get it. But I'm still going to be me. But I, I'm going to at least check that box completely. Cool. There are some people who say, you know what? There's no box at the check on me. I'm going to do it my way and I'm going to own and take all the consequences, good or bad, that come with it, you know, and there's no one right answer in all of this, right? It's whatever works for you. But to me it's ultimately. And look, I think it changes during different stages of your life. When you're younger, often, you know, you have either less confidence, less experience, less, Less money. Right. And so you are trying to play the game of probability. And I think at a certain point for some people, and you see this with a lot of artists, a lot of hard. Which I love about artists, they're always living in possibility because they're doing what's true to their heart, what makes their heart genuinely sing. You know, I have had privilege of.

Working with a lot of great artists.

Now nobody will ever know who they.

Are, but when you talk with them, you can hear in their voices how.

Much they love what they do. Yes, they love what they do. And they're not going to make a lot of money. They're not going to fame or power, most likely, but they love what they.

Do because every day they're creating about what's possible, what's true to them.

Now again, I'm not saying that's better than the probability. I'm just saying from my perspective, you can do both and it depends upon how you want to frame.

Absolutely. So you being an adventurer and a photographer and an artist and hanging out of airplanes, taking unbelievable photography, gives you both of those. So going back to your number two, how do you. My question, I guess you said no yourself. I wrote without even thinking about it. I wrote, how do you know yourself and your motivations? So how would you advise me to know myself better? I guess is a good way to say it.

Yeah, it's a great question. I wish there was a simple like snap the fingers answer. I think it's paying attention to what makes you feel like life is Important and worth living. And then knowing why is that the case? So for me, I can only say for me, you know, I. I fly in a helicopter and I've circumnavigated Greenland twice now in July 2018 and July 2019. When you fly from Iceland to Greenland in a helicopter. Yeah. Have to take a helicopter. Underwater emergency training class in case you crash while you're over the city, the Denmark city, you also have to wear a survival suit. And the flight was four and a half hours. It's all about possibility now. We do our best at probability to be safe.

Right?

But you don't know what will happen. So you're living in both worlds. Then when you get to Greenland and you're flying around, people will say to me like, well, what are you going to photograph? What are you going to film? I go, whatever feels beautiful and exquisite and glorious and is inspirational that I want to share with myself, my family, my friends in the world. Well, what are you going to see? I go, where are you going to go?

I don't know.

We're just going to. We're going to fly. We're going to wander. And I love to wander because wandering is about possibilities. Right? So that's. But, but with wandering, in my case, I also have to have some probability. So we plan and we try to mitigate risk, but in terms of the output, I have no idea what's going to happen. I don't even know what's going to happen during the experience.

And there is a probability component of it. I mean, you've planned out getting to Iceland. You plan the economics of it. You were trying. You're mitigating risks because you believe you have to sell something out of that journey.

Yeah.

So you do have that. So how did you find. Knowing you, Roger, you're an amazing person. You. When you said fuck validation, what you said to me was exactly who I met. A person who in many ways says, I'm going to do my own thing, but to get to that point, for me or anybody else, the circumstances made that happen for you. So I'm trying to think, okay, I feel I know myself, but how would I know myself better?

Well, everything is a question of degrees. And also at what point in time you're asking a different question. I think is when do you feel like what I'm doing or how I'm living is who I am and is my possibility, that's part of it. Right. And by the way, we don't need to question ourselves every single second of every single day.

That's too grueling.

And if you're going to do that, you might as well just see a therapist every day at the.

Well, that's why I've got you on the phone, right? That's why I've got you. Come on.

And that's why. And that's why I've already, I've already sent you an invoice on Venmo for this whole discussion. Look, I think the part of the challenge, I think, as, as a human is that we're always looking for, like.

What are the, what's the silver bullet?

What's those answers? Like, people say, oh, read the book of Bill Gates. This is how he did it. I'm like, yeah, that's how he did it. What an amazing human being. Professionally, societally. I mean, what an amazing human being. But that worked for him. You know, there are certain fundamentals that work for everybody.

I do believe that.

And then we all have to also take ourselves and enable ourselves to be our best selves. And no book can tell you how to do that. You have to ultimately find a way to believe in yourself, believe you're worth it. And so I wish there was, like.

I'm trying to think. I. An example came to mind. I had this person I was working with, I don't remember what country. And I, at one point, I felt that this individual was far exceeding the 5,000 person employee unit that she was in. And I looked at her and I said, go out and get some interviews. And she said, because she seemed unhappy. And she said, no, no, no, I can't do that. I said, why not? She said, I'm happy here. I said, no, you're not. And you're not learning here. No one's telling you to get another job. All I said was, go out and interview and see if you like it. And two weeks later, we're sitting down and she's smiling, she's like. And I said, what? She said, I can't tell you. I said, come on, you went out and interviewed, didn't you? And she said, yes. And I got a really amazing job offer. And she ended up taking that job offer because it was the right thing for her. Now the company knew what was going on. There were challenges within the organization. It was a great move for her and a great move for the organization. I wouldn't have done it if I didn't feel it would have harmed the organization. But in terms of her finding herself, she needed someone to kick her.

Right? And we all do. I think, to a large degree.

We all do.

We need to. But that wasn't just a kick, that was a statement of belief, which is, I believe there's other possibilities for you that may be even better for you. Right? So if you don't explore, then you never get to possible. If you only stay where you are, it's always probable within 10%.

Right?

You know, a lot of people, that's why I have a lot of friends, as I'm sure you do, who work for some amazing corporations and that sometimes we have a discussion and they're very senior executives, and sometimes they'll say, well, you know, the one thing I love about my work is, you know, it's a great people, great this, great that. You know, every two weeks I get a paycheck, you know, and the company's been loyal to me. I'm like, companies aren't loyal. I mean, they're expecting a probability from you, you know, because companies aren't really based about corporations publicly. Trade aren't about possibilities. They're about, okay, we need to grind out more results for the next 90 days. Right? And I think that goes against human nature. So my point is, even when you sometimes work at certain companies, you're there for probability, but your heart may be living in possibility. And so the challenge, I think, for some people is, can you do both? Or when can you try the other pathway? Do you want to try it or is it just too fearful? It's scary. Look, I gotta tell. When I started my own business, I left a really, really successful corporation. They're by far the dominant player in their field, in the entertainment field. And I started my own production consulting business. So all of a sudden, I'm consulting for Fortune 100 companies, competing against all the real big consulting companies who have, you know, people around the world. And I'm creating a video production company to do digital content. And my whole pitch to clients was the 30 seconds can always be here, but it's going to change. But the new content model is going to be about serving people, not selling people. Imagine telling a corporation, serve people, don't sell people. And they're like, what are you talking about? Our job is only to sell. I'm like, actually, the best way to sell is to serve and serve authentically, because everyone knows you need to sell. Now the question is, are you here to help? Can you serve people in a way that is of some value to them? And that's where you start to have a relationship, something deeper. And that's about a possibility. And people are saying, but it's a 32nd, 32nd commercial. I go, no. They're like, how long should the content be? What's the right amount of content? Give me that probability. I said the content should be as good for as long as it's good. It's. And as long as people like it and care about it. And they're like, well, how long should that be? I go, I don't know, maybe it's 7 seconds, 17 seconds, 37 seconds. It's as long as it's actually great. And that's all about possibility. You don't know until you go dim. But that's not why we do polling for politicians. That's not why we do research and focus groups. We think we can get to probability by stripping out possibility.

It's still. My mind is still racing to say and I and you. I would say that to some degree we both mirror in terms of our, our possibility thinking. I think that's why we get along is that both you and I are willing to take those. I hate the term risk. We're willing to go after. I wouldn't use reverse. We're willing to pursue an alternative future and knowing that there are consequences for that. But the risk reward to us is even greater. I think that as a for people I know that I've tried to help and have helped and they've done. I use that exact example that I used in that other woman. I used it on another guy and he was already looking for jobs and he ended up realizing the place he was in. He would really need to fix more than he needed to go out. But that there are so many other people in this world that when you're helping them you really have to. It's almost as if you can't see yourself for many individuals that having a friend, I would say one thing then I guess is to listen to friends listen to other. But you don't have to take their advice. But you have to at least listen and explore what people say about you. And that might be one way to know yourself. I don't know. It's a really challenging question and Doug.

It is because probability and the pursuit of probability is a lot easier because there's so many rules and so many ways to go do that. People can tell you, here's what I did, here's what I did, here's what I did. And by the way, those are really important inputs and insights. I mean super powerful, very helpful because they illuminate what's inside of you by engaging you on deep levels and also Inspiring you with stories, right? And so you take that, that gumbo, that recipe of other people being kind and sharing what they did and how they did it, and then you go, here's what that means to me. So I'm a big believer in listening and asking and reaching out to all types of people. You know, my life has gotten better. Look, I went to Greenland for the first time two and a half years ago and you know, I met an amazing, just by accident, an amazing gentleman who's working on this project over there. And we've now become very good friends. His name is Ben Weiss and he heads Planetary sciences, mit. But because I went there and I met him and then when I came back, I started emailing, I started researching who are scientists at Study Greenland. And then I started saying them. I have all this photos, all these videos, all these things I can share with you. And I met more and more people and every time I spoke to them, they helped me refine more of what I was doing and how I was doing it. And it helped make me realize that my possibility became even more purposeful when I collaborated with people I never met before. But I started to engage. And that goes back to knowing yourself and to me, reaching out to people you don't know. But that might say yes is an exciting possibility.

Yeah.

And that also for me too.

But the challenge for not. But I would say the challenge for many individuals is that is a no go status. That is a no go. I'm not going.

Why do you, why do you think, why do you think.

It'S going down? Your possibility and probability factor, It's. How do you diminish that probability factor enough so people are willing to see that possibility? It's a fear. It's a fear of the rejection. It's a fear that they won't have the time, they won't take the. They won't be willing to put the extra effort in that they might say something stupid. They might not have the background. There's all of these societal or cultural or psychological or sociological components of that one simple gesture which is really not complicated to I think the two of us yet. I think it is a no go status for many people.

Restate. Why do you think that is?

They don't know how and they don't know if it will work.

Right. So you just answered part of what we're discussing. They don't know how it's going to work or if it's going to work. That's the probability. Right. So I think probability is super important. Super important on so many different levels. But to me, what makes life worth living is creating and engaging in the planet, in my art, my adventures, my expeditions with scientists and with students and with other wonderful artistic people in the industry about what's possible. Just the notion of imagining. I always think that.

That.

That world, that world of wow, what could I imagine is stripped away from us once we become adults because we're told about probability. Don't imagine. Do like what? You don't hear many people at the age of 21 being told, you can be anything till age 21. It's like, what's your job? What are you gonna do? How are you gonna pay your bills?

It's sad.

Well, look, it is. But it's not a question whether it's sad. It is what it is. The question is, how do we look at everybody? I'm always so in love when I hear people's stories, because people have such amazing stories. Some of them are painful and brutal. Yet inside of all those people, they. A lot of them have hopes and they still have dreams. And it doesn't mean they have to be Elon Musk dreams. Right. But there's something that they have. And it may be, by the way, it might be a very simple but powerful maybe those problems. I want my family to be safe and give them health care, food, and a roof over their head and just smile every day. And that's worth everything. That is everything.

There's this part that says, know your motivations. I'm. I'm racing my mind. If you could see my eyes, you'd see them just darting all over the place. I'm. I once sat down and I said, okay, I'm going to write out my principles. And then I realized I wrote a whole book that has principles in it, that I have so many principles that they're just. They guide me every day. To say, to know my motivations is a. Is a whole different level of understanding who you are as a person. And again, it's. It's. Were your motivations instilled in you because of your parents? Were they instilled in you because of your culture? They were still into you because of the organizations you worked for.

Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So how do you strip them back?

Okay, let's imagine this question, which you can never answer. Imagine you're born. No, you. Because there is. There's no way. I love. I love that I imagine this question.

But don't worry, you can't answer it. No.

But if you. When you were Born. If you were in your list, I'm about your purest state. If you could have been enabled to be your purest self, what would that be? Meaning? You know, you weren't worried about what happened with your parents. You worry about society. You weren't worried about your friends or your. If you could just be your truest self, who would that be?

Or what would that be?

The truest.

Or what would. Or what would that be? What would it look like?

And how would, how would, how would that be?

Right, yeah, that's actually a very good question. That's a good way to frame, to know your motivations and your yourself is to define if you could start all over without limitations, what would the life you had been given be? And I used to say this to individuals. I'd say, what did you used to do before you had to raise money, had to make your own money, before you had to go to work every day? What were your pleasures? And people say, oh, I love to play baseball, I love to play a musical instrument, I love to go hike, I love to do this, I love that. And I'd say to them, do you do them today? Well, I'm kind of busy. And I'd say that was your purest happiness because you had no responsibilities that caused you to go in a different direction. Go back to some of those and you'll find a lot of your happiness is built in there.

Right? No, I think that's absolutely true. And so we, I often say we create the problems that we try to spend our lives solving.

That's a very good one.

We create the problem. And the reason we do that is because there's a sense of familiarity to it. And that, by the way, that's about probability, right? Oh, I'm familiar with that. And that's why we, I think as humans, we spend our time the way we spend our time, which is it could be we spend too much time exercising, we spend too much money shopping, you know, we eat too much, we watch whatever it is. But it's because there's a sense of familiarity. It gratifies our brain. And so I think the challenge is going back to what we are often removed from, which is that I think almost childlike curiosity and imagination and, and I love imagination because when you free somebody from the probability and the rules of external validation, they can actually get much more in touch with their inner selves, their own motivations. So, for example, and you've seen some of my photography, it's amazing when I, when I do my aerial photography, I, you know, my door is off, and I. The door vent.

The door to the helicopter is off, is what you say.

The door to the helicopter, because your.

Door is off, could be taken. You're mentally challenged, but that's okay.

I've been told that, too. And I lean out really far. I'm strapped in and I have a harness on, but I lean as far as I can. And I shoot photographs straight down. That tends to be most of what I do. And the reason I do that is one I love. Mother Earth, to me, is the most amazing artist, right. And most amazing source of all energy. Without Mother Earth, we don't exist. So now I'm flying over Greenland. I'm looking down, and, you know, there's Greenland's massive. And I'm looking to essentially design art from the sky, right? There's already art there. But I have to find the moment that moves me, that makes me either one of three things stops me and calms me and makes me feel very spiritual and connected. Another part of that could be it stops me, makes me cry, or another part where I start to scream, even swear, because I'm so excited, okay? But when I shoot straight down, the reason I do that is I eliminate any context, any familiarity to the person who's looking at the image. So why do I do that? I do that because that requires people to engage their imagination about what they're looking at, right? And it requires them to feel with their eyes and their heart. I don't tell them, this is a gorgeous landscape, look at how beautiful Greenland is. Although I do that as well. But most of it's about, what does this mean to you? And so people swim, emotionally, creatively, swim in my work, and it becomes theirs because it's their imagination and it's Mother Earth. And I become nothing more than a conduit, a vessel for people to connect not only with Mother Earth, but with themselves.

Yeah. And your work is amazing. The. I think that Know yourself and your motivations. It's a really. It's a phenomenal number two, but it's a real challenging number two. The.

Of course. But. But by the way, what isn't challenging? The question is, is the life, you know, unexplored, worth it to explore, or is it just easier? And the answer is, oh, easier not to explore it. Bless you. And as you know, even when you explore it, you may be wrong. You may think, oh, I thought it was that. But it's this, you know, I got this. I have to say, I got this most exquisite text message From a woman, I don't know what. She follows me on Instagram, and she was looking at my work, and she was reading my post because I spent a lot of time trying to connect with people through prose as well as photographs. And so this woman writes back, she goes, you know, I appreciate what you're sharing. What I've realized is I don't need to travel around the world to go see things and new buildings and have a checklist. I can travel inside myself because there's so much glory there, so many stories there, sad and positive. And I got done reading, and I was stunned. Wow, this person is amazing. And I had a minor role just to sort of facilitate that. I thought, wow, what a gift she's given me, and what a truth she told us. She told me.

It's amazing you bring up this story. When Facebook first came out, I posted a decent amount. And traveling around the world, like you, I was posting a lot. And one individual wrote to me, I live my life vicariously through you.

And.

I love your photographs. I love your journey. I love your things. You do. And my reaction was actually, oh, my God, I don't want people to live through me. I want them to live right.

And. And this is what I really appreciated. This woman was living her life through herself. Yeah, I love that. All I did was become a bridge. Right. I opened the door, and she decided she was going to journey into herself. So that's what I try to do with my artwork, is to enable people to go back to their own core sense of imagination, creativity, to take away the probability of what things should be. Oh, that's beautiful. That's a mountain versus, wow. What is that? So, in fact, in the work I'm releasing now, my colleague Melissa Shoemaker, who is exceptionally talented, kind, smart, wonderful, and without her, I couldn't get anything done. We're doing what, one take, one picture a week on Instagram, and we're in Facebook, and we're. We're doing a slow pan over it. So. And the reason we're doing that is so you can feel this abstract beauty. You can touch it almost with your heart. And then at the end, we reveal the whole image, because often we don't give ourselves time to go inside and go deep and be slow and to breathe. And I wanted people to feel like they were just a gentle butterfly, just being part of this experience and using their own feelings, their own imagination, their own history to decide what is that. And I think that's what I want to do, is encourage people to use their Own creativity in mind and not tell them.

Yeah. And the. The motivation side or the understanding is. Yes, as you said, there's many different ways to approach this. Let's go on to the next one. Create and embrace today and the future. What did you mean by that?

Yeah, at this stage, you have to sort of like, let go. Understand the past, but not live in it. And to me, life is about. I always think of things. I know there's a thousand shades of gray. Let me start off with there's a thousand shades of gray drag. But within that there's. There's boundaries. There's no, There's. It's binary. Do you create or do you wait? And I believe in life that I want to be a creator, not a waiter. And because when you create, you create an energy. And when you create an energy, things can happen. And by the way, not with probability, with possibility. So if I want to reach out to someone I don't know, I just write them. And so if I want to go do something, I just reach out to them. For example, we just, we just. For Earth Day, I looked at it as Earth Week. We collaborated with Conservation International, and every day they released a video that I directed and from footage I shot from Antarctica, Greenland, Iceland, Africa, whatever it may be. Melissa, who I mentioned earlier, who's amazing, did the editing, and we worked through all these different phenomenal musical artists. Herbie Hancock, Portugal the Man, Elie Zaveda, health, Agnes Obel. And now we're doing one with Melody Federer and Burt Bacharach. And the reason I bring it up is I didn't know any of these people and I had to go reach out a couple of cases, reach out to bands. I didn't know how to. I didn't know them, I didn't know their manager, I didn't know their agent and anything.

And.

But I had to finish video and I knew that I had to not only find these people, then I had to get the artist approval, the manager's approvals, labels approval, the publisher's approval. You know, how do you do that? So I just reached out and.

Would you say, and this is not to be cynical, but to be somewhat pragmatic, to be. To be honest with the day that while you have days that have these spikes of unbelievable innovation and opportunities, or you reach out, someone says, yes, that the life really does have a level of not maintain. Ness is not the word. It's more of a normalcy. And you have spikes of inspiration and spikes of excitement. And what I think the way you sound Is you're trying to improve the number of spikes that are yeses and excitement and possibility.

I'm trying to improve the number of things that feel like life is worth living.

Yeah, that's what I mean. You get more of them in a day or more of them in a week, or more of them in a month, then your life becomes. I don't want. There's an unrealistic expectation when you meet people who are celebrities or they have done some amazing job or that they're going to be so different, and yet they go to their kitchen and they get food. They take a shower in the morning. They have to deal with their mother or their father or their friends, but they also build into that life some amazing things. Things.

Yes. So I would also add is if you. Things can be mundane, if you allow them to be mundane. Here's what I mean by that. Like, I love water. I'm in love with water. You know, most of my work for the last couple years has been three different forms of water, like liquid, you know, solid or vapor. And I've. It could be icebergs, glaciers, melts. And for me, water is like, amazing. Like, how did they. How was water created? How did hydrogen and oxygen come together? So when I take a shower, I'm not just taking a shower. I'm literally going, wow. Not only is the water exists, which we need to survive now, how do they get it through the pipes to me, and then how do they heat it up?

I could teach you all that if you needed.

No, my point is. And you want. When you start to feel that, you go, oh, my God. It's so much more than just that. When I go to a grocery store, and I love grocery stores, think about it. The colors, the shapes, the designs, foods from around the world. And if you're fortunate enough, you can afford to eat. Right? Like, what a gift it is to have money to go into a grocery store and be able to buy stuff that you need or want. Look, I grew up. We couldn't necessarily do that. There are times we'd be in the grocery store line. I remember this happened many times. It's one of the reasons I became good with logistics. We go to the grocery store, and the lady would say, okay, it's $23.45. And my mother goes, okay, I only have $11.45. And we'd stand there. We'd have to take things off the belt, right. And remove it. And then the lady had to deduct it. It was all by hand, and it was manual and it was. And you're standing there, it's kind of feels shameful. Like you know, we can't afford groceries. But what that also taught me is wow, what a gift to be able to afford apples and bananas and whatever you want. And so then I look in my room sometimes, like even the room I'm in right now and it's a really nice room. But if you look at it and you go, oh my gosh, it's not just a room, it's people's dreams, it's people's work. Like that bed somebody made as a company and somebody had to work at the company that money to take a vacation, put their kid through school, to go out for dinner with their family, to have health insurance and you realize that there's energy and so much more. So to me that's the way that you can elevate the mundane I think is the word you used. Or the boredom. When you start to think about and realize that there's so much more. That's when actually even the day to day becomes pretty amazing.

It's an amazing journey listening to you and how you are looking at certain things. Because I look at a whole different set of experiences in a whole different way and I still have that excitement and you know, some of the projects I'm working on. I love to travel the world. I love the experiences of meeting and seeing. I don't remember him history dates and figures, but I love to see and explore the entire world. I don't mind getting on a plane going 16 hours or 52 out, 53 hours to get to Bangladesh yet it's, it's a, it's. It's pleasurable to hear this little water experience that you've got and how you've been able to take that from that perspective. Yeah, it's so you so to make that embracing that every day so you've been able to take the everyday things around you and convert them. How do you take the day to day life things, whether it be paying the bill? I've got to believe that there are activities you're engaged in where you don't. How do you look at life from that perspective so that today becomes a valuable day?

It's evil. That's how I look at it. It's completely evil to pay bills and be organized and follow up on certain. It's just evilness of the world. No, look at that stuff. To me, that's hard for me if my brain doesn't work that way to go, okay, let's go through that. I can go through a lot of really detailed, super detailed logistics. Like I'm going through right now with the helicopter and the right safety measures and the right carabiners and the right rope and the right knot and the right harness, you know, and how do I lean out? How far can I lean out? How do I make sure it doesn't come undone? I go through all those logistics. It's life or death, of course, but you start to send me all these bills and, like, because it's. It's not how my brain works now. I have to deal with it, right? So I try to put together some systems that make it easier, right? And so I can sort of embrace that. That's the only way I can do that. I mean, the part of life is, you know, goes against what we want to go do. It can't all. It can't all be fun and games, but it's how you look at it. So even with things that frustrate me or I find boring, I go, okay, well, guess what? Like, literally, okay, here's a story. Colonoscopy. Let's talk about the colonoscopy.

Yeah. Been there, done that. Okay.

Okay. I've. I've had a. I've had a whole bunch more than usual for most people because they wanted to monitor some things. And people said to me, oh, that sounds horrible. I said, are you kidding me? I've got a great. I've got a great doctor. Really, really good and really kind. I've got, you know, fortunately, good insurance, which is really reassuring. This is an inconvenience, right? No big deal. And then, you know, I got done with that. Like, two days later, I had an oral surgeon take a tooth out of my mouth, which was really, really, really, really, really painful. And my headphones stopped working so I could hear everything and see everything. And. But I was like, you know what? I've got a really, really good oral surgeon. I've got insurance. You know, I could complain about it, or I could just get on with it and be appreciative for what is. So that when I get a bill, it's the process I don't enjoy. But when I think about it, I go, you know what? I can afford that bill. How lucky am I? So for me, it's about framing. And that's why.

Perfect way to say.

Possibilities about framing.

Perfect way to say it. I was looking for something that you could pull from, and the word framing is probably the best. I didn't find that word in my vocabulary when I was trying to put together how I do it. But framing is probably the best word to identify that experience for you. So how do you do the future? Create and embrace the future, or what would you add to that? Because that's what this category is.

Well, that's about possibilities. All right. So, you know, I've got, I'll say, too many different ideas that are way out there right now that I'm working on, and I don't know which one will happen, which one won't happen. You know, I probably. I have some people who just think, oh, that's so amazing that you're so creative. And there's. Some people go, oh, my gosh, he's too creative. Can you stop? And I. And some people go, just. Some people say, just pick one idea. I'm like, well, they're. I don't know which one's gonna work right? And I love them all. So I have to go, how do I do this? I give each one its own best shot. So that's about the creation part and embracing what happens with it. Because a lot of times, you know, it doesn't work out the way you want or you. You need help from people, and it's. But they're doing it their timetable, not yours. So I think you have to embrace.

The fluidity of it all.

And that, to me, is about. It's like water. That's why I love water. When you get in a pool, you might know it's water, but it flows around you. And as you swim, you're. You're moving energy and you're creating energy and you're feeling energy. So it's that notion of being fluid with what's possible versus, to me, sometimes it can become rigid if it's only probable.

The one thing that I think one of the challenges I think human beings have is we have so many assumptions built. Built into the way we think that we don't realize the micro steps that we make to get there. So, for example, you said that you look for the possibilities and you have all these opportunities, but to get to that step, you probably had 17 things you went through. What's the economics? What's the timetable? What do you think would be the highest probability of it being successful? So you could be excited about it versus it not turning out because you might not have resources or access or time or. Or you're married in your case. So it's. Does the family. Will that interfere with family experiences? And I somewhat do the same. I have a list and I have a board And I'm listing, I have one column called Larger Opportunities. And I have to at times say I love the large opportunities, but it's not going to give me that future, right? And doing a podcast series, it takes away from another opportunity. Yet the value to me is I'm learning from you, I'm being challenged from you. I'm seeing new insights from you. And if I can keep on growing, then that list of larger opportunities expands. So I see it as a positive for all the work that goes into it to make sure that the next phase becomes an opportunity. So I think those little micro things that you're saying, we, as a listener, me being a listener, or anybody being a listener, you're making a lot of jumps, and I'm trying to follow those jumps.

And here's a good thing. I'm glad you brought that up. A lot of jumps for me are extremely intuitive. You know, it's not a linear. I write down 100 different things and then I get to feels, right? And there, therefore I go do that. And when I say feels, I don't mean it's just an emotional feeling. It just. It's logical. It happens in my brain, and then I move forward. But yes, a lot. There's a lot of leaps. And for many people that either it doesn't work or it's frightening or just not who then how they are. And that's okay, too. That's just what works for me.

Lori, my wife, mentioned the other day that there was a study out about how people can't predict the future. And I do see this. I will be working with organizations. I'll say, what do you think the future is going to hold in terms of a market or condition? Let's go five years out. And they can't see it. They cannot create the future in their own mind's eye. And.

But here's the thing. But here's the thing. Nobody can predict the future. Look, for every expert, there's another one that has a completely different point of view. If there are only so many great experts, we wouldn't have a pandemic and the world being shut down. Like, I'm so tired of everyone being an expert about everything, right? The answer is, yeah, I don't know. We're giving the best shot and the best data based on our own belief systems. But how could the whole world not see this happening? Like, how could every government, every military, every intelligence agency, everybody not see this happening, Right? So I don't think of what we need to be experts. We can have A sense of probability.

You're very funny because I did a video and what I started off by saying is, nobody knows. We don't know.

This is, this is new.

We don't, don't listen to everybody because, oh my God, the news is changing every day. And you just sounded just like that.

Well, no, but, and, but to me, like there's. And obviously not regarding the pandemic, but about life, you know, if you can say, I don't know, but I'm going to explore.

Absolutely.

I don't, I, I don't know, but I'm going to wonder and I'm going to wander to learn more about it. Right. Then all of a sudden things start to change because in your mind, there's possibility and consideration. And so to me, and again, there's different stages in your life when you. It's easier to do this. Let's be honest about it. You just go, okay, I'm just going to go for possibility exploration. But I have to be willing to not only create that world, I have to embrace what comes with it. I have to own whatever happens.

So might a tactic be for people, including myself, which I've been trying, I do as much as I can is to, in the world of pandemic today, is sign up for events that have nothing to do with what you're used to doing. So if you're not a photographer, listen to a photographer person, speak. If you're not in transportation, listen to a transportation person. If you're not into cooking, listen to a cooking person to give you that diversity of future possibilities.

Yeah, but that's exactly what I do. Look on Instagram. I follow people of different types of art form. And just watching them and seeing what they create or how they create or getting to talk with them is so inspiring. And I don't know what, there's no linear connection. I don't go, if I hear this, I'll do that. Or if I learn that if I meet them, I have truthfully 99.99% of the time, I don't know at all what's going to come out of anything I do. I mean, truth is, I did a thing may know about this. It's called the Mirror Project. And it was about look going beyond the surface for each of us. Okay? To go beyond the routine of the ritual. I pick mirrors as a symbol of being superficial. But now I want people to go beyond that when they look in the mirror, really look at themselves, to know themselves, to think about and be reflective of. Where are they where do they want to be? But what I did is I took mirrors, had them made, and I brought them around the world. I photograph mirror, you know, orangutans looking at themselves in mirrors, emperor penguins looking themselves in mirrors, lions, giraffes, you know, name it. And I remember when I first did it in the Falkland Islands, you know, you have to have them made in these countries or cut in these countries and just have stands made. And I have no idea if any of it's possible, if any of it's going to work. I don't know how I'm going to lug all this stuff around, make none of it, okay? And then you get there and you go, okay, I'm gonna figure it out now what? And then you put 100 pounds of equipment on a sled and you pull it 6km out and back and try to photograph emperor penguins in Antarctica with it. And I wanted to see how they would respond. But it was a symbol of, like, what does it mean if you can see yourself for the very first time? Because let's be honest, most penguins, they.

Don'T have a mirror in their, in their hut. Right.

So, but, so my point was, I didn't know the outcome was gonna be. And I remember the first time I did it, and my wife was like, well, it sounds like an interesting idea. Sounds crazy that you're gonna. But go ahead, that's what works for you. My wife's always been very supportive. So that's what I did. And sure enough, it turned into this magical project. Was it complicated, hard, sometimes dangerous? Yeah. But was it rewarding? Absolutely. All long wait, all the stuff that sounds like not fun, like driving mirrors, nine hours on sand road from Nairobi.

Up to this lodge.

Not fun. When five of the six mirrors broke the first day, Definitely not fun. Okay, but, but I loved every aspect of it. That's.

That's the motivational side or the knowing yourself, because that's a. I, I would probably think you would agree with this comment. Often individuals have probably said to you. It was a. They say to me all the time, oh, My God, that's 16 hours on a plane. That's 25 hours of travel. And I say to them, I really don't care. I'm going for the destination, I'll sleep on the plane, I'll read on the plane. But oh, my God, I get to go to Cartagena, I get to go to Tokyo, I get to be in New Zealand. And it's about the destination that I enjoy and I meet great people on the Planes, too.

That's exactly right. Look, I can tell you another friend of mine. I met him on a flight and he is head of Planetary sciences for Harvard Smithsonian Institute. And I met him only because I was on a plane and I talked to him. So I believe it's an opportunity to meet people, to learn new things. And the people that want to talk, of course, that's okay. But the possibility of learning someone else's story, no matter who they are, is really, really fascinating.

And I will add to add to what you've just said is that I think it's easy for people to say, and they probably said it to you, oh, but you're always in business class. And I say, no, I have been in the very back because I'm the last person to sign up on applying where I can barely move my legs for 12 hours. I have been in the economy plus situations. I've been in business and I've been in first. But the way I always tell them is in first class, nobody speaks to each other. It's very difficult. Business class, you get some conversation, but in normal class, you sit by amazing.

People who are willing to talk to you. So I.

That's my take. I don't know if it's the same as yours.

My take is very simple. If you're kind to people and you're interested in people, genuinely interested, and you're willing to listen, it's great everywhere. It's just great.

It's just for me, my experience has been in first class. The people next to you will go to sleep. They'll do. They. You can meet great people. It's just, it's been, it's been interesting how there's a different type of atmosphere that you would not have thought is there, which I've met great people on all of the classes. But what I'm saying is you, you and I have both been in economy. We've been on these planes that are small, small and rinky and everything. And we've met great people there, too. And it's not a matter of class. And I think that's what my point. My point was that I think there were people saying, yeah, but Roger's been flying all over. He's probably always in business class.

I wish that was.

But I know that people say that because they've said that to me. My travel was 300,000 miles a year, and it was always assumed that every flight I was on was business class. And no, I have been in the.

Most horrible planes you can imagine where.

I'm afraid that the wings are going to fall off.

But the right.

And you've had amazing times.

Yeah.

So let's get to the less is more. What do you, what do you, what's your take on the less is more?

I really found that the less noise I allow into my life, the less distractions I allow into my life. The less that I focus on the probabilities of the world's telling me, the more time and energy and joy I get from focusing on what's important to me. And that means eliminating what doesn't serve you, that you have more mind, space, heart space, caring space, love space, creative space to go pursue what's truly inside of you. So whether it's media, less technology, less shopping, less, you know, whatever it is, and then go, okay, now I'm freeing up time.

Right.

And by not focusing on what the external world is always telling you and following their lead, it doesn't mean they're not good inputs. But not following their lead, you can focus more on yourself and what your life you want it to be. So that to me is. It's less of outside, less external, and more time for internal.

How. I heard your list. How do you do that? And how do you know that you've not eliminated too much of certain things?

Well, first of all, I think the answer of how do you do that again, you do it by being attuned to what's important to you and saying, okay, if this is important to me, I always think of life again going back to there's a thousand shades of gray. But things are binary. There's attractions and distractions. Attractions are things that are really important.

To you and they're hard.

They are hard. I mean, they might be fun to.

Get there, but they can be hard.

Because it's who you are, who you want to be, or what you really want to do. That's an attraction that's important to me. But there's also sometimes fear, like, what happens if I'm not good enough? What happens if I don't get there? All these things in your head.

And if you say to yourself, okay.

Wait a second, I want to focus on what's important to me, then you don't get what I call the shiny objects, little distractions. You don't get caught up in surfing the web when you should be pursuing your attraction and your goal. You don't get caught up on online shopping or anything else that's a distraction. You know, it's like at the end of the day, you say to yourself, they really Get a chance to do what's most important to me. They're driving. And by the way, it might be going from five minutes to six minutes, not about, like, whole days. Did I give myself an extra minute to focus on the attraction of what's important to me in my life, my heart? That's what I'm talking about. Everything else is a shiny object, and we all get distracted. And by the way, let me be clear. Certain distractions are actually part of the attraction process. And what I mean by that is you have to wander, and you have to wander into fields and places that you know nothing about that are completely unfamiliar to you, but they serve a purpose. And they serve a purpose to bring you closer to your attraction. And that sounds like it's inconsistent. Right? Like, you spend time doing stuff that may not have a direct value to you. Absolutely. Because it does. You just don't know how. That's the world of possibility. Like I always say, if you're going to play pinball, you can say, I want to get as many points as possible as fast as possible. I'm going to go for the big score. Or you can say, you know what? I want to just. I want to keep the ball in play. And I keep the ball in play, more things will happen and more points will be made. I'm more relaxed about it. It's like, we'll see what happens. I'll get more points. And in life, you want to have more touch points, more time for your attractions. And so you have to think about, am I spending time on things that will be helpful? Not in a linear fashion necessarily, but things that will help your mind, your imagination, and your heart be happier.

So maybe there's a way I can add some clarity, because I'm trying. You said it perfectly in the sense of the construct.

What?

The thing that kind of got me a little bit off, and that's what I'm trying to. Is that the distractions are not always distractions. If they are part of the attractions that create the distraction, does that make sense? Like, you're going. You're. You're traveling and you get distracted.

But it becomes. So let's break it apart a little more clearly for everyone. Attraction is what you want to go do. Yeah. Okay. A distraction is something that stops you from getting there. Simplistic. So if you really want to go create something or do something, there may be. There's lots of ways to get there, and they are actually part of the attraction process, part of the energy field. Right. And it might be researching Flowers as it relates to you want to start a new business. You just don't realize how. Which part of it. Attraction, a distraction is when you do something that actually takes you away from. Okay, so possibility. That what?

Yeah, the way you had said it was. So it's with it. That's what I was trying to get to. It's within the attraction that you find new opportunities that might appear to be distractions, but they actually add value to the attraction.

Yes, but it's not a linear fashion.

That's what I mean. It's a. It's a three dimensional. You could be going backwards, you could be forward. You can go up and go down.

Yeah. Look, do you remember Edward de Bono at all? Okay. Lateral thinking. I got into him when I was really young and I got. I don't know why, but I did. But it was this notion of laddering. Right. And most of us think that success is straight up. Right. It's climbing the mountain. Right.

It's not.

And that, by the way, and that. That's the external validation that we're told you should be a mountain, and if you're not the mountain, go climb it and be on top of it. Because you're stronger than the mountain. But of course, we're not. The lateral thinking is going from side to side, finding the grips, finding the places, finding things that let you move forward, even if sometimes you have to go backwards to go forward. So momentum and progress that accumulates and builds, and often you don't want to.

Get to that top.

The top of the mountain may not.

Be your mountain or a false pee.

Yes. And so I say to people like, I just came back from Namibia a couple months ago, right before the whole pandemic, and I looked at these mountains and I thought, that's exactly the symbol of what we're told as men to be. Strong, tall, bold, conquerors. Right. That's often historically the pattern. And yet when you look across Namibia, what I fell in love and I fell deeply in love with, just like with water, I fell in love with sand. Sand. And sand's everywhere. There it comes. It's blown up from South Africa. It's from Namibia. But a speck of sand by itself. Speck of sand, I realized, is nothing. It is a piece of the mountain. Right. Because as a mountain, you ultimately become a speck of sand. That's who we ultimately become.

And that.

It's the speck of sands together by the trazillions. Trazillions. Not trillions Trazillions times. Trazillions that form these amazing, beautiful patterns. Okay. And so it shows you that together we're more beautiful, together we're more strong. But at our essence, we're not really the mountain that's a composite, a composition of everything. We are specks of sand. So you also have to have context for where we will end up. Right. What a short period of time we're here called 80 Years for Lucky. And the planet's 4.5 billion years old. So that's going back to on your deathbed. Yeah. It's a hard concept. But you know why it's a hard concept? Because nobody wants to think about their death. Because nobody wants to truly die. So if you think about it and go, is this. When I look back, will this be decision or a pattern that I am going to be happy with and proud of? And you don't know the answer until you're in that position, but you. It's a good checklist criteria.

It definitely is. And I love the idea of the thought of the mountain being the top that I never thought. I don't think I've shared with you, but my story is like a camel's back. You go up a hill and fall and you go up a hill and fall and you go up and hill and fall. And I have fallen so many times. And that's just part. It's not a direct path. It is a lot of falling and a lot of re climbing and a lot of rebuilding. But that's the fun.

If you are open to that. Yes. And if you're not, it becomes much more difficult.

Yes.

Because then back to your point, it becomes. Then it becomes painful or boring or whatever. But if you look at. And I really do believe this, if you look at things and frame them like, wow, look at that tree. How beautiful. That tree actually feeds me. It takes what I spew out, absorbs it and gives back to the planet so I can live and survive. If you have. If you have a sense of wonderment, then life is wonderful no matter who you are or where you are. I used to volunteer at a hospital in Los Angeles at Cedars Sinai. Amazing hospital, amazing doctors, nurses, staff, and a phenomenal volunteer program. And I would meet people who might never come out of the hospital, but it was a way that they viewed things and framed things and thought about things and felt things. And they were inspiring because they were beyond where they were. And that was a choice. Maybe it's their DNA, but it's how they were and so and felt the world. And I think it's within reason to think that we have the ability to frame how we want to feel and see and engage with the world. And that's why I said, you want to be a creator or a waiter. Both are good for me, I need to create the.

I love the word wonderment. That's an excellent word that I've probably been looking for my whole life. I've always used, said that I'm extremely curious, but it's not curiosity. It's falling in love with something different and new and exciting. And I love the word wonderment. I thank you for that. That's one I have had not used. And I think it.

I knew if I talked long enough, I knew if I talk long enough, you'd find something. Something that.

Something. Yeah, there was something. I don't even remember any much more of the conversation. I've been trying to forget it now. I would say that the wonderment is a great. It's a great way to encapsulate putting in curiosity, putting in that attraction, putting in that possibility. I think that that's an umbrella word that brings all of these pieces together because builders, creators are excited about something. They're excited about building a structure, excited about getting people to attend, excited about learning something new or taking on a new instrument. I think that wonderment is a fabulous word.

I don't know why. Thank you.

I don't know if I would have ever used that. So I think it's amazing word. That's a gift.

Thank you.

The less is more cutting back. And can I just give you the.

Definition, the definition of wonderment, just so you know.

Yeah.

A state. A state of odd admiration or respect. And then they use the example this person shook his head in silent wonderment. Odd admiration. It's a feeling of surprise, of awe and joy. And I think, you know, how wonderful if we can have some surprise and awe to. To me, awe is all around. It's like that is the easiest thing to find. You know, I'm like in awe of my dogs. Just like, wow. I'm in awe of our son. Like, our son, like, wow. That I understand scientifically how he was created and born and everything. But like, what.

How amazing.

And looking at him every single day, I have awe and wonderment about that. You know, so, you know, plants, you know, what wildlife, you know, oxygen, planet Earth, water. There's real wonderment and awe for me.

And all of it.

And so that gives me real pleasure.

There's actually on the Google search that said, is wonderment a real word? So, yeah, there I just. I gotta believe that you've run into many situations where people said, oh my God, what you do would make me tired. Is convicted. And I've got to believe you run into situations where people say, will you stop it? You're just keep on going. And I'm in my head, I'm trying to bridge that gap to be able to say or explain that it is not tiring, it's energizing. It is not. It's not. It's not a chore. It's delightful. Yeah, it's. And you never know what you'll find at the end of the road, which.

That's the possibility.

Yes, that's the possibility. And you, you are fine with that and.

No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not. No, I'm not fine with it at all. I'm in love.

Okay. Yes. Sorry. What I meant by is it's part of your DNA.

Yeah.

And that's. And look. And so, so my question becomes, and I would like to see if we could find something is imagine if a person was in front of you who completely doesn't understand how you cannot be tired from all of this. What would you tell them?

Just like, come join me.

Well, I've already. I'm going to do that. So there we've got that. See, I looked at wonderment and it said your name.

You looked up the word meshuggah now.

Ah, yeah, yeah, no, sorry, it's wrong tab. Wrong tab. I gotta click back to wonder you come join me. Is a great way to say it. Not everybody's got that opportunity. If someone, if someone's struggling with their.

Life.

And you had do. And I'm gonna kind of make this our last topic, what the whole program is. If you had to help them get to wonderment, would there. Besides not being able to come with you? Because not everybody wants to hang out of a helicopter and not everybody wants to go to Namibia. How do you. I'm struggling because I know that you have run into these people. I don't say these people like this all category people that are just called that. You've. You've been challenged with.

People.

Let's cut through the chase here.

Most of the world and most of life is really difficult from a lot of people, especially right now. Right. You know, you have to have a place to sleep that's safe and being.

With people that are safe. Right.

Then you want to have food that's healthy and good for you and your family. You want to be able to provide at least the fundamentals and the basics of life. And it's really hard. I mean, it is really hard. This is why our brains go to probability. I mean it's legitimately hard and I completely accept it, understand it and get it like it's normal, natural, okay?

So I think a lot of times you just have to, have to be respectful.

I mean, I look at what's going on in the world right now and I think, think of all the people that are protecting us. Grocery store workers, first responders, everyone at the hospital. Many people are manufacturing things for us. Delivery trucks, you know, go on pharmacies, we go on and on and on and on. You know, these are people are often for most of our life are invisible. They don't have a lot of flexibility of your options. But you know what a lot of people are. These people I talk to all these folks, they're very happy because they have wonderful families. They love actually what they do. You know, they're taking care of their responsibilities. Like those people you have a tremendous respect and honor for. I mean they're living and they're living a great life for them and we each get to make those decisions. So as really as the people who don't want to do what I do, I don't blame them. Do whatever works for you. It's your life. And the only bet in life that's really worth making is on yourself. So only each person can decide what is fulfilling, what is a life worth living. And some people have that flexibility and options and most don't. And that's why I also have tremendous gratitude for being to do what I do. And I also try to reach out and help others as much as I can.

Right?

Because that is being really purposeful. Because in the day, serving others, helping others, connecting with others, that's the most important thing. I believe that's the most important thing. So right now the person who checks me out of the grocery store is risking their life serving people. And they're doing it because one, they want to, they need to, right? But they're doing it. These are really courageous, strong people facing fear every single day. So the answer is, there is no one answer. It's whatever works for that person that they will look back and say, you know what? I did the best I could, I enjoyed it the most I could. And for me, and it's hard because how do we frame things in our lives that give us the most likelihood of finding joy and awe in day to day life? That's the real gift. It's not hanging out of a helicopter. It's like finding joy, purpose, smiles, and every day.

And I will say thank you for that, the amazing time with you, Roger. Thank you, thank you, thank you. You are helping people, individuals who are listening, myself included, to redefine tomorrow so that we have. There's a saying that I've had since I've been young is you can't fix yesterday, you can only create tomorrow. And in your case, you helped shine a light on the possibilities of tomorrow.

Well, thank you for inviting me. Thank you for having me.

My pleasure. If there was one way that individuals could reach out to you, get a hold of you, what would you give them?

I would say if they want to write me, they can just write me at my email, which is rogerodgerfishman.com they're also welcome to get a hold of me through Instagram, which is just Roger Fishman. F I S H M A N. So it's your email or just text me through that.

Whatever.

Whatever works for them.

Are there a question, are there many Roger Fishman's out there?

If there are, I feel sorry for all of them.

Some names are difficult, easy to get and are not. So for everybody, if you are looking to reach out to me, I'd love to connect with you. Davidavidgoldsmith.com Instagram is mrdavidgoldsmith. You can also hit me on Twitter at Goldsmith and LinkedIn and Facebook. I'm there too. So for everybody, Roger included, I'm David Goldsmith and thank you for listening.