How Can We More Authentically Listen to Ourselves with Chris Thompson #5

Hello, everybody. This is David Goldsmith. And welcome to another episode of Redefining. Tomorrow, I should be able to say the title to the program. Today we are going to be exploring how can we more authentically listen to ourselves. And we have a great guest on the line. We have Chris Thompson. How are you?

I'm doing great today, David. Thank you.

Chris and I met at an event with a groups called ypo. We met in Bali. And I loved what he was working on, how he was, how his career had evolved. And I thought he would be a perfect guest to have a shift in some of the concepts we've been talking about. And there's an interesting fact that he might not know. I don't think I brought this up to you, Chris. Chris worked. He's been working in media and education, I think something 30 years. And he was the hundredth employee for a company by the name of Electronic Arts. Now, I don't know if I shared this with you, but Electronic Arts, Bobby Kotek and I went to camp together.

There you go. That's a connection.

I not only went to camp with him, he was in my bunk. Well, there you go.

Well, maybe you inspired Bobby to get going with Activision.

Oh, it was Activision. Yes, that's what's correct. I was trying to put the pieces together. So. No, Activision is different than Electronic Arts.

Yes, yes. But yeah. So EA was founded by Trip Hawkins and Bobby was with Activision.

Okay, well, that. I. I got my gaming wrong. Apologize. So I think what, Active EA became a 5, $6 billion company?

Something like that. Yeah. In terms of revenue. Yeah, just under five. And then in terms of market cap, it got to about $30 billion.

Not a bad day. Which then took you to a place called To Bali and to the Green School. So he became, became. Chris had become the director of the Green School after he enrolled his children in the school. And here we are today. So with that said, I'm assuming you have a few bullet points for us to work off of.

Yeah, I'd love to go through these with you.

Okay. What do you have?

So I just want to talk about how we're. How do we authentically listen to who we are? So I just want to outline why it's an issue and then go through redefining what it means to be successful.

So number two is redefining.

Two is redefining what it means to be successful. Three is how we look at this from a systemic point of view, which is reforming the education system. Four is how we actually reform the boardroom. And the corporate structure, five is even tied to four, but it's really transforming from a growth to a sustainability economic model. And then seven is really how we are able to go and listen and connect to our inner voice.

Okay, you went very fast on those, so we're going to have to repeat them when we get to each one of them. So let's start with the first one, how authenticity and listening to ourselves. How. I guess this is a summary type. Beginning to this. Teach me something.

Okay, so the problem, David, is that we live in this model of success and achievement, which I don't need to explain to you about this. You know about this. We are born with it. We go through our schooling, we go through our work. It is what 7 billion people in the world grew up with. But there's a problem with it because you see the first part of it as children are going through school, they don't enjoy their educational experience. So just using high school statistics, kids are bored 70% of the time in high school and they're depressed 80% of the time. That's pretty much the same with middle school. And this data you can apply to almost every single school system around the world, with a couple of exceptions. But the problem is that what we then do is that we rationalize this unhappiness with school because we say to the kids, don't worry. Once you start working and making money, then you'll be happy. But the problem there is that according to Deloitte's annual survey of happiness within the workplace, 80% of people in the world are dissatisfied with their work. 80%. So when you have 20 years in school and then 40 to 45 years of working, basically what we are saying is that we are guaranteeing, guaranteeing that our children are going to be unhappy, except with a very small percentage of these people. So there is something is just fundamentally broken within there. And this is where the problem is. And it isn't just my view, it's other groups, other organizations, even religions believe that there is this disconnection from who we are, from this whole being of our self, of this quadrinity that exists between the spirit, the intellect, our emotional selves and our physical self. And what happens is that as we go through school, we are constantly told to focus on our intellect, but the intellect is only a very small aspect of who we are. But as we focus on the intellect, because we are given grades and we're told to do well on tests, and that's when we're congratulated and celebrated as to how we have these successes around the intellect, we abandon all the other aspects of who we are, which is our spirit, our spiritual selves. Now here I'm talking about secular spirituality. I am not talking about religion and what the.

So, So a question that I have, as I'm hearing you go through this. Have you ever explored why that these systems exist?

Sure. I mean, as you, you can go back and, and examine them and see how they evolved and how they came up. And you know, and I think that there's a, there's a logical reason for how a lot of these things have, have come about. And you know, I don't believe in. I don't believe in conspiracy theory. I don't believe in. If you go back and you sort of look at how anything evolved, there was a natural, there was a natural evolution to it. So the education system being one of them, there was a very logical reason as to how it has evolved. The problem with it is that it has not, has not effectively changed in hundreds of years. And this is where we are with a number of our systems and institutions is that we are locked into these models that we accept as the norm but don't effectively work for where we are today.

So I'm trying to think very quickly. The people who were educated a long time ago ended up in many cases having skills that were above others. So they, the rule of law, the model was educate somebody and they will be more successful. And somewhere in there they felt that that success generated happiness. And there was, then there was a disconnect.

Correct.

I don't know. I'd have to think about how that actually transpired. I've thought about education, but I've never thought about how there was an unintended consequence to probably the belief that knowledge was power, knowledge was influence, or knowledge was capability, or knowledge was a better life.

Yes, well, I mean, we've, we have evolved that way. When you go back to the evolution of books, when books were created and then they were, you know, they were considered almost heretical and they were controlled by a very small group of people. And then we've. Then we had a push of knowledge and through the institutions of universities and this idea that we needed to spread knowledge and through the scientific revolution and, and it has been our primary focus. But as that has now happened and as we have moved into a very complex capitalistic economic model that is driven by consumption, we have now taken that knowledge which is driving this model and through that we have abandoned the other aspects of who we are, which then ultimately leads to a lot of unhappiness by people in the workplace, which we can sit here and talk about. But it's a pretty, pretty.

It's. Well, it's well documented. And. Yeah, so you threw out spiritual, intellectual, emotional, and I think two others. What were the two others?

Kinesthetic or physical? Four.

Okay, so you were, you were leading off when I jumped in about the spirit.

Where we are with. With this, with this, with this imbalance is that we abandon our true selves and we have abandoned our true selves. And the spiritual aspect, aspect that I was talking about, that is our innovation, that is our inner voice, that is our creativity. This is this voice that is always inside of us, that is always talking to us. But we're so misaligned with our values and our beliefs because our heads are constantly telling us different things than what our spiritual side are doing. I mean, simply thousands of examples, but simple examples where if someone is. Is offered two jobs and one is giving you $100,000 a year and a job that you're not that interested in, one is offering you $50,000 a year in a job that you love and that you'd be committed to, your head is typically going to tell you to take the $100,000 a year job. And this is what happens to so many university students and so many people where they're pursuing the dollar. And this is an intellectual pursuit. This is not spiritual pursuit. So this disconnection that we have constantly drives issues in the world. And I think that this disconnection actually ties to almost every single problem that we have, from MeToo to racism to sexism, to sexual violence, to addictions, to rape. And when you're kind of asking about the why earlier, when we look at this, I mean, we're looking for solutions for addictions. The issue with addictions is a disconnect from yourself. And then you're trying to fill these voids with. With external. With external items to be able to. To fill that void. But if the void didn't exist in the first place, which is an absence of the spirit, secular spirituality, you don't need to fill it with these other things. So it's really. It's such a. It's such a. In a way, a very easy thing, but it's quite complex in terms of. In terms of how it unfolds in society. So this is where we are with these problems. But I think that there's a number of different ways that we're able to go through and address these things.

So, okay, I'm getting my mind around trying to figure out, let's take on number two, I guess, which is redefining the meaning of being successful.

Yes. Okay. So right now, anywhere in the world, and I've lived overseas for 30 different. For 30 years now, and I've lived in 10 different countries. Success is defined effectively by the size of your wall. How did you do in school? What grades did you get? How did you do on that test today? What university did you go to? What job do you have? How much money do you make? How big is your home? How many cars do you have? And this is the model that is everywhere. It is in India, it is in Japan, it is in Korea, it is in Indonesia, where I live. It was in Singapore, where I live. It is the American model, it's the European model. Because what we believe is that this drive to fiscal achievement, to having these consumption items around us is going to lead to happiness. Now there is a minimum level that of course is needed. We need a home over our heads. You know, we need food, we need, we need companionship, we need. There are some basics, but we've gone so far over that model that the only way that you can continue to be more successful is to acquire more. So you feed the beast.

It's what feed the beast.

It's feeding the beast. And you know, this, this is tied into the, into the economic model of where we are today. And we get into this discussion of really, you know, of capitalism versus socialism, but really that isn't. It isn't a binary discussion and it isn't either or there's actually a whole bunch of opportunities in the middle. But the fundamental problem is everything we do is focused on growth. Everything. So every CEO in the world, they only have basically one drive that they're trying to do, which is growth. Maximize revenue, maximize profits. And it doesn't matter what they are saying, it doesn't matter. Any public company, this is the only reason for that CEO. Now you're going to have different CEOs who, who have different beliefs and have different interests and say that, you know, this, I'm doing this and I'm trying to change this. And there are better CEOs than other. But when the whole focus is only on growth, you're going to get compromise within there. So the model that we are around, it is set up for us to absolutely abandon who we are unless we are growing up in a very unique and specialized environment or around a family that is very, is very centered in terms of their values and their spiritual aspects. But in general, as long as we continue to define success the way that we do, it is going to continue to be a problem and an unsustainable problem at many different levels.

I don't know if you plan on going over it here. I want to jump in for a second and say, why or how did this become important to you?

Well, I've always. Well, so part of it for me gets back to my growing up divorced parents, a father who was alcoholic, growing up in a.

In a.

Fairly violent home, in terms of the alcoholism and the verbal abuse that went on. And there was always something that was within me that was saying that there's something kind of wrong with how these things are happening. Right. And even when I was a five year old, I couldn't understand why people would be acting like this. And I went through the model, you know, I went to Stanford University, I had a full scholarship to Stanford University. I pretty much got straight A's. I was a bit of a troublemaker and I challenged conventional thinking. I joined a Silicon Valley startup. I did relatively well going through that. I've been around the world and so I've been through this model. But my first I'd say epiphany that I had as I went through this was that the success model typically is, you know, go to school, good grades, go to a good university, go work for two years, go back and do business school and then continue. And I was going to do that. I was in Europe and then I was going to work for two years with ea, then I was going to go back to business school. And I was sitting there one day and I'm like, why do I need to go back to business school? And I had a few people saying to me, you're getting a better experience what you're doing right now, working overseas with a Silicon Valley startup, you're going to learn more there than anything that you're going to do by going back to business school. And that really started to challenge me in terms of like, what is society telling me that I need to be doing. And so I didn't go to business school because I said if I want to go back to school, I want to go back and study poetry or history or something that I was actually deeply passionate about. But then as I kept going through these different things, I kind of had one epiphany after another. I bought my home. I remember sitting in my home for the first time and I'm like, oh my God, this is so wonderful and so exciting. But after a week or two it's like, okay, well, that was that. So have I worked 30 years to finally have my own home and have my own space and have all these different things? There was always, there was always another question that was, that was sitting around there. But where I'd say it really hit me was about 15 years ago, my older brother passed away and he had a very aggressive brain cancer. And he was diagnosed in March. He died in December. During that time, he and his wife had another baby. So that child never got to know him. But it really hit me as to the meaning of life and the fragility of life.

How old was he? How old were you?

He was 42 when he died and I was 38. But in parallel to that, there was a story. Maybe you know the story, but there was a guy named Eugene O'. Kelly. He was the former chair and CEO of KPMG. He was 53. He had everything. He had all the money, all the wealth, he had beautiful children. He had ticked all the boxes and everything. And he thought he was happy. Well, at the age of 53, he was diagnosed with brain cancer, the same brain cancer that my brother had. But this was not at the same time, but roughly around the time. And so he wrote a last letter to people. And in that letter what he said was that basically the world is made up of circles. And in our innermost circle is our family, our children, those that we love the most. And then we have our best friends and then our friends and then acquaintances. And it kind of makes. Makes its way out right as we go through these concentric circles. But what he said was that at any time during the week, someone could call his assistant or say, hey, you know, hey, Eugene, can we meet up next week for a talk? He would look at his calendar, he'd say, how would next Thursday at 2be? And he would take people from his outer circles and always make time for him. But what he said was that how could he not find time once a week to have lunch with his wife? And it really hit him, it profoundly hit him, is that where we focus our attention are around these things that actually have nothing to do with our core happiness, with our areas that really drive us. The Harvard study that is very well known and seen on the TED talks, it's the 85 year study that's been going on and it's basically what makes people happy and it's relationships. And see, relationships don't come through our intellect. Maybe we may meet someone through an intellectual curiosity, but what forms the relationship and holds the Relationship are our emotional and our spiritual centers. It's who we are that connects us and keeps us together. And the relationships are what make us happy. It's not the money that makes us happy or the job that makes us happy. So I've kind of gone through this journey in my life, and then as I was in the corporate world, and I'm hiring person after person after person after person, and I'm seeing what's happening in the corporate world, and, you know, probably about five years before, you know, I finally left the corporate world, it was starting to hit me about, why am I doing this? It wasn't aligned with my values and my ideals, and it wasn't aligned with who I was. It wasn't. Wasn't the driver of everything that it was. But I still had the societal voice telling me that this is what you need to do to be successful, but it wasn't making me happy. And so it took a lot of effort to break this and then leave the corporate world. And it was a friend of mine who was the head of Heidrick and Struggles, one of the top executive recruiting companies in Asia Pacific. And I went and talked with him one day, and he says, chris, you can't believe almost every executive that I talk to has the same feelings and beliefs you do. But they can't walk away from it. They can't walk away from it. And even with me, even when I said I'm not going back to corporate, he would still come and offer me jobs. It was a vice president of Yahoo position that was available, and ironically, there was another job that was available for a new startup in the transportation tech industry. And I didn't want to go and get involved with it. And that was getting involved with Uber. And even as I tell people this story, they're going, oh, my God, you blew it. How come you didn't join Uber? But you see, do you see the irony of this?

You didn't blow it. You made the right choice.

Yes, exactly. And so it's been a process for me, and then moving to Bali and putting our children into green school, which kind of ties into. My third point is about how we really need to fundamentally reform the education system, which is a systemic issue. And there are examples of success around this. This is why we came to Bali, so that our children did not go through the model of what we went through in our lives, and so that they would be more emotionally grounded and to be able to truly follow their paths and lives and interests of what they wanted to do.

Redefining education is a massive undertaking. Why you joined the Green School? How did you hear about. For the kids? How did you hear about the Green School in the first place?

Well, my friend Steve, who was running Heidrick and Struggles, he had been. He had been doing some consulting for the founders. And so he introduced us over a dinner to one of the founders from Green School. And I went there with my wife and with Steve and Steve's wife, and we had this dinner and we talked about all sorts of different things. And the school was very new at that time, just in its second year. And as we're driving home, my wife says to me, why don't we go there? And I'm like, where? And she's like, why don't we go to Green School? And I'm like, well, that was kind of quick. And so we woke up the next morning and it was, you know, sometimes the ideas aren't quite as good the next day because they're really great. The night before when you have a glass of wine and you're all inspired. And we looked at each other the next day and said, should we go to Green School? And it's like, yes. And we made the decision. And I sent a message out to all of my contacts. And it was so funny hearing because so many people, you know, who, you know, who knew me, said, oh, my God, Chris, it's so wonderful. And then some were like, you know, are you crazy? And then a whole bunch of them were like, God, I wish I could do that. And. And as I'm looking at these people who are saying they wish they could do that, I'm thinking like, you have more money than me, you have more resources than me. You can all do this. And this is. This is what is so fascinating about this. People think that they need to be getting to this, to this certain level of money or income or homes and all this kind. And then once they get there, then they will live. But we only have 82 years in this life, David. I mean, we don't. We don't have a long time. So these were the things that were really hitting us. And we went down to Bali, came down to Bali, enrolled our kids into Green School, which was in its third year. It was chaotic. They didn't even have a classroom for our daughter at first.

Well, let me explain for just one moment. The Green School is situated right outside of the major cities. The major city in Bali. How about. No, it's actually pretty far away, isn't it?

It's only. It's about 20 minutes outside of Ubud, and it's maybe 20 minutes away from Denpasar, which is the major city. But it's.

It seems. It seems like three hours because that's how long the traffic takes.

Yes.

And the Green School is a picture a. I don't know, a school in the middle of greenery. The buildings are made of natural. Of bamboo. The classrooms are open. There's. You could see the rain if it's raining. There are rivers and streams. There's. It's very much like going to camp, but that's where your school is, so you're getting in touch with nature and living within nature, being taught alongside in a different format. I don't know if I. I didn't know if I did that justice, but that sounds great.

I got excited as you were even explaining that then I was excited to know that my kids are that are.

I went to camp. I was talking to someone. Well, with Bobby Kotak.

Yeah.

I went to camp in the Adirondack. And if I was to point to a time in my life that I absolutely, absolutely, absolutely loved is when I show up at camp for. I mean, we're living in a cabin with a bunch of other guys and every morning the guy, the person running the camp would get on the microphone and say, everybody up, up, up. It's another beautiful day in the Adirondacks. And we would do sports and play with one another. And if I had to put the memory.

Some of the.

The fondest memories of my life, I'd put them in that time. So, yeah, that's the way I kind of saw it.

Yeah. And Green school, I mean, it has camp qualities to it, but it is a very progressive model focused on environmentalism and entrepreneurial green Stewardship. It has 500 kids in the school. It goes from pre K prep all the way up through. Through high school. The kids love going to school there. The engagement, when measured by outside groups, is very high. With teachers and with projects and even going through a model that kids want to be to. That kids love being at. These children are still able to go on and go to universities of their choice, if that is their choice. Now, most of the kids go to university and they. They get into university, they get into Ivy League schools and they go to universities all around the world. But we also completely support a child who doesn't want to go to university, who wants to do a gap year, maybe wants to start their own business, because really, it's my belief, and actually quite a few people's belief is that most kids should not go to university. And whether my two children go or not, I don't care. It's completely up to them as long as they're making the right choice as to, you know, as long as they have good reasons as to why they, they do or don't want to go to university. And so when you're in the school, it takes away. There is not a lot of discussion around oh, what university is your kid going to or what is this? There are no grades given until you get into grade nine. And the only reason that there are grades given is because they're required for admissions to universities around the world. There's very limited testing, there's, there's very limited summative assessment. But the, the model because, you know, people kind of imagine that, okay, well it's a bunch of hippies in the jungle and you know, they were singing Kumbaya around a tree and then the curriculum fell from the heavens and all these different things. And it wasn't. The school's educational model is completely built on research from the largest educational research study that is still ongoing and it's ever, ever been done by a man named John Hattie based down in Australia with his visible learning program. And so what's so interesting about this is when people hear about Bali in the Green School and that's why like when you responded, oh, how complex it is to reform the education system. What is so ironic about it is that it's actually very easy to reform the education system. The problem that why we don't do it is because we are locked into these old outdated institutional models that are basically tied to the achievement model where we want to be able to measure and line up the children as to who's number one, to who's number 100 between grades and testing. But the model, and you can give me any public school model anywhere in the world. They are not following best practices, practice. And what research says, because what research says is excessive homework doesn't work. What research says is that testing and grading doesn't work. Research tells you shorter school days, not long school days. Research tells you play based learning and getting out of the classroom. Everything that we do that we are focused on just taking, say the US model is completely contrary to, to what is sustainable and good education. But we continue to perpetuate this model because we feel that it feeds the needs of the achievement model within society.

And I would add that there's a secondary component is now the parent can't work when the kid is out of the school system. So there's challenges in the economics of survival, which probably propagates this too.

Yeah, of course. And I've, you know, I've, and I always qualify this with, with, with a couple of things when we talk about the education system. If a child is growing up in inner city Detroit and is a, in a single parent household and they're struggling economically, going to any school where you have teachers that show up, that kind of care and give a crap, that is better, even if it isn't the right educational model, that is much better than, you know, than the alternative of just being at home without a school, but that school with no additional cost, no additional resources, could be implementing the correct learning model into their systems. So this is where the argument falls down because what people say is we can't change the model because it costs too much or it requires too many resources, but it isn't. I mean, one of the biggest limitations to the, to a strong learning model, and I'm going to talk about Finland here in one second, is that we go from, we are based around classes that are tied to exact grades. So you go to Math class for 55 minutes and then you go to your French class for 55 minutes and then, and you keep going through these different classes that are not connected with each other. So you have this timetable, this scheduling model where the schools are forced by the state and by the federal government that they have to teach these 10,000 items because that's what you're going to get tested for. Well, it's just, it's crazy. I mean, why, how do we ever come up with this idea that this is what children are supposed to learn? I mean, David, you're like one of the smartest people I've ever met in my, in my entire life. And when we look at, when we look at, when we look at information in the world, so all time there have been about 130 million books that have been written. Roughly 130 million. If someone reads 10 books a month for their entire life from 1 years old. Right. Which they can't do, but let's just be generous here. And no one reads 10 books a month except for a handful of people, it's roughly going to give you about 6,000 books in your entire life. 6,000 books. And 130 million books have been written all time. And we take then a subset of all this. And we think that if you have this information and this knowledge, then you will succeed in life. I mean, I can't even tell you the lunacy of this when we believe that this is what children need to be doing. So we, what we're doing is we are boxing and boxing and boxing the children, not just their emotional and their spiritual aspects, but we are boxing their intellect because we're telling them that you will be successful with this limited information. I mean, Gunter Pauli, who you and I have talked about, you know, and he wrote the Blue Economy, he's one of the greatest innovators in the world. He, I, I've spent time with him and met him a few times and he has come to Green school and you know, he absolutely fundamentally says no child should go to university. None. And this is not some wacko that isn't doing. This is a guy that has $5 billion of funding from institutions and governments and corporations from around the world. This isn't some wacko that's telling you not to go to university. He is categorically telling parents, do not send your kid to university because they won't learn and it's going to limit their ability for growth and to be successful and happy within the world. So we have all these data points. To me, it's actually the biggest elephant in the room right now is this, this education model. And when you talk to people, most people didn't enjoy it. You talk to any single teacher. And I have hired, I can't tell you how many teachers I've hired and interviewed. There isn't one that will tell you the current education system is great. But we continue.

My wife, my wife was, my wife was amazing with our kids in one sense that I remember her saying to them, because school was challenging in many respects. She would say, which this, the society requires you to do this, but this is less than a fraction of what you'll learn in your lifetime. And she would. In essence, we tried to homeschool for a bit. That was very challenging because our kids asked a tremendous amount of questions. They also didn't. When people say when are you going to school? They say, oh, we don't go to school because they didn't know they were learning all day. But we had a challenge because it's very religious based people who homeschooled. So we had challenges with finding people that we could associate with. And she was phenomenal in sharing with the conceptual side that education is challenging in many ways with the kids. But we still ended up, and I'm using the word but intentionally, we ended up sending the kids to the, the system because it's not easy to do it on your own. And There was no green school where we were.

Yes, yeah. And I totally appreciate that. And you know, I'm 55, so when I was growing up it was, you're going to go to university. And it wasn't, I wasn't even told I was going to go to university. It was just, that was, that was what we grew up with. Well, now you have online learning, you have elearning, you have homeschooling, you have world schooling. You can do a combination of any of them. You can go to public private school, you can go to charter schools, you can go to a university for a period of time and drop out and leave. You have all these different alternatives. That really empowers the child right now to be able to make these choices. But what's so interesting, and I worked with governments in Abu Dhabi as well as within Singapore about looking at the education system. But the reason that they were looking at it because they were having difficulty with their, with their creative media industries and developing them. So unless they reform their education system, which was so intellectually based, they were not going to be able to grow these industries. And then when you look at a country like Singapore, which is, it's a country of 5 million people that is at the end of the Malay Peninsula that is looking at its economic survival in the world, these aren't casual discussions for them, these are things that they really need to understand and know and they actually do know this, but they don't publicly state it. They don't publicly state about the importance of the whole being and the whole child because societally that is not what the parent community wants to be hearing. But what's interesting is you look at the most successful education system in the world, deemed by most people, by most groups, greatest output is Finland. And what's interesting is that the happiest country in the world for the past two years according to the UN report, is Finland. Happiest kids in education Most successful educational model Happiest populace There is this correlation between what's happening and what does Finland's economic model, I mean Finland's education model tell you? It's exactly what we just talked about. You know, effectively limited testing, don't grade, short school days, play based learning, get them outside and they focus on this thing which is called phenomenon learning, which is. Most people understand this as thematic learning. It's integrating the subjects into a particular theme. So we, for example, a theme could be Hong Kong and Hong Kong. You could be studying about Hong Kong, the history of Hong Kong. You could be looking at the Buildings and the architecture of Hong Kong. You could be looking at the wildlife of Hong Kong, a whole variety of different things. And the students are now talking about something that's real, that exists. But as they're talking about, as they talk about architecture, well, that's math, that's science, that's geometry. As they're talking about the history of Hong Kong and the handover, well, that is about history and social studies. And so when you bring it into a contextually understandable topic or theme or phenomenon, the students will learn and better understand. Right now what they're doing is the French class is completely disconnected to the math class. Well, why, why do we do that? Why not connect the math class in the front and the French class to the history class, to the social studies class? And this, this is, this is kind of the basic problem.

But I'm going to throw out that I know at university, I try to remember the year I'm not very good with years that I had asked. At one point while writing the book that I wrote, I wanted to go to a. What's called a asb, the association of Universities. Aasb, I think it was. And when I asked to go, I wanted to find out why university settings were not teaching integrated classes. Why weren't you combining multiple disciplines together? And the answer shocked me. It's because the professors, and this for universities were able to somehow calculate that it took 30% more energy to teach a class that was integrated than what was not because you had to work with other professors. So why teach it? Because it was easier. And this way you could just get along, go on with your life. And it shocked me because I thought the best way to learn is an integrated way of experiences, because our lives are integrated and it's not that way based upon time factor for the participants who teach.

And that, that's often the argument is the, is the timetabling and the scheduling. And I need my 50 minutes for, for English lessons, and I need my 50 minutes for, for. For this. Right.

Because they're teaching, they're teaching siloed thinking. However, they're teaching it in series instead of teaching the concepts together around whatever the person wants to learn.

Exactly.

So like you're saying Hong Kong, look at the architecture, look at the grass, look at the landscape. 70% or some odd 75% of the land is protected. What does that mean for, for wildlife? What does that mean for exercise and getting out into nature? And those things aren't taught in that way. They're taught in silos.

Yeah, exactly. And that and when we, when we are taught in a silo, then we are not connected. I mean, I've worked in big corporations and what, what do people often ask when they're in a corporation? You know, when they're, when they're working in the customer service division or they love to understand what the finance in the marketing division is when the marketing division works in a silo, when they're not connected to development. And this is often how development. Just taking the gaming industry as a particular example, it used to be the development team would make a game, then they would take this, which is effectively their baby, and they would hand it to the marketing team. Then the marketing team would work with it for a few months and then the marketing team would package it and create their own story around it and then they would hand it to the sales team. And then one day it was like, huh, I wonder if we kind of combine our marketing development along with our marketing along with our development teams and we work together through the entire process. I wonder if the outcome would be better. And this is actually why I left Europe and moved to, to Canada with Electronic Arts was to set up the first studio marketing model within, within ea. And that was about integrating these things and bringing these things together. And so now we had understanding of both sides and that begged more questions. And then that allowed us to have a bigger picture as to what we were actually trying to do to be able to provide a, a more exciting product out to the marketplace. So this isn't just about how we learn, it's how we, how we work, how we, how we, how we function in life. I mean, when we're in our households, I don't walk around my house with the 10 things that I do as a, as a dad. I mean, I'm constantly interacting with my children in my environment. And so it is so counter to actually how we function societally as to what our education system does. And so anyways, it's such a limited belief, but it's not forget about an opinion or a view. It's proven to be wrong from research, it's wrong from the success models around the world, it's wrong. So you can have anybody in the world that may want to stand up and defend the current education system, but they're few and far between these days. So we almost just need to kind of move on from that and say, like, how now do we integrate a productive, successful education system that is about helping the child be most successful and happy in their lives? And this is what Finland is doing. And so you will start to see this have ripple effects around the world. I mean, Singapore is closely watching what Finland is doing, as is the UAE and other places around the world. As you look at competitive models and creative thinking centers, you're going to start to see that the most creative thinking centers in the world are those where you have these progressive learning models that are really addressing the institutionalized, outdated learning that's there right now.

What do you, what's your take on the Waldorf schools?

So a lot of the influence for Green School? Well, many of the teachers that first came to Green School were Waldorf teachers and there's a lot of commonality. I mean, what, what's interesting is that, you know, people say, oh, it's so unique what Green School teaches. It actually isn't unique, it's just based upon research and it has certain inspiration, you know, from Waldorf and from other learning models from Montessori around play based learning, engaged, activity free models within the classroom. So one of the problems though with things like a Waldorf or like a Montessori is that there is a basis, but then they're reinterpreted. And so you could have someone that is teaching Montessori but is effectively applying classical learning models to it, or you could have someone who's teaching in a Waldorf school. And if it isn't managed and they're not introducing and continuing to fulfill the Waldorf principles, then you're just going to have the outcome which is going to be standardized education. But there's nothing, there's so many different interesting learning models around the, around the world that, that, that pull on their, the, the key principles of what makes effective learning. And so, but they get abandoned and they often get abandoned because of economic reasons. Right? It's like, well, they need to make the school more efficient or we need to franchise the school or we're going to be working with these companies around the world that franchise schools and make it a business model, which, and I think those companies are just completely immoral and just completely messed up. I mean, how, you know, making education a business and driving it as a business is like, you know, why do we have it? We have it for the kid. Have it for the kid. It doesn't mean you run a school badly with bad business models. But these companies that say it will come in, we'll take it over, we'll centralize the back office and we'll do this and you implement this curriculum and then you'll have a successful learning model. Well, I mean, it's just. No, that's not the case.

I brought up the Waldorf School because I had a partner who was out of South Africa and his kids went to South Africa Waldorf School. And it was very play oriented, go out, learn, experience. The way in which the teachers connected with the students was very different than most traditional schools. And then the partner moved to Silicon Valley. And when they got there, the kids were very, very challenged because in Africa, South Africa, they integrated. It didn't matter what color you were, it didn't matter what, what income you came from. You were able to do almost anything. You can climb any tree you wanted at any time. But when they moved to the States, it was. You couldn't climb a tree because there were insurance issues. And the kids actually felt a very big disconnect between cultures. There were. They noticed that color of skin, wealth and income belief structures actually divided the children. So that's why I asked the question, and I'll turn it into does. Do you ever find that at Green School?

You mean, so just tell the challenges.

These are challenges that society puts on people. How are you getting around those type of challenges?

Well, I mean, don't even move it from Green School. I mean, let's just. You asked about Waldorf. I mean, Waldorf, you know, has this idea that, you know, that it's, it's not this race to kind of fill the child's brain with all this kind of stuff. And as you said, it's about play based learning and it is about connecting to nature. And then there are some basic things. There are routines that are important for younger children that they do. And there's another aspect to it which is about storytelling within the Waldorf model. So they have these basic principles that they do. And so how Green School is, is approaching these, you know, these, these societal pressures is. I mean, first of all, and you saw Green School, when people come there, it's like, wow, this place is made of bamboo. It's like, wow, there's no walls. And it's like, wow, kids actually learn here. And oh my God, there's a lot.

There'S a lot of bamboo.

Yeah, but it's like a lot of bamboo. But, but the, the greatest, you know, part of it is at the end of the day, and I am not exaggerating this, at the end of the day, there are so many kids that are there at school and parents are running around trying to find their kids and they're often, sometimes dragging their kids out and the kids are crying because they don't want to Leave. They actually have fun at the school. They want to be there. And my son, he's now 16, but I remember he was 15, he got in the car one day and we're driving home, home, and he comes in and he says to me, dad. He goes, I just had the greatest day of my life. And I kind of acknowledged it, but I was driving and I'm like, oh, that's nice. And he's all, no, dad. He goes, I just had the greatest day of my life. And I'm like, boy, that's it right there. Like, here's a 16 year old where if he was in the US he's most likely depressed, he is most likely bored in some, some school districts. And you and I talked a little bit about this, but like the Stanford High School district in around Stanford University has the highest suicide rate in the country. At one of the schools, 12% of all the students in the school seriously contemplated suicide over the past 12 months. I mean, it really like, it chokes me up hearing about this.

And I just had a, I just had a friend share with me that her son tried to, was about to jump from the 17th floor of a building.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's, it's a, it's an interesting take. I'm trying to get my mind around how, how challenging we've created, how we've changed the world in such a way that all of these things happen. And the Green School, I'm going to share this with everybody. You can actually put a duck on your head at the Green School. So I don't know if you know that I ended up doing the mud. The mud pit.

Yes, the mapontagon mud ceremony.

Yeah. And I did, we did the ceremony and Remy and myself, we both had ducks on their head. So it was a very nice experience. I had a great time there. I guess the next one we have is the boardroom or reforming was at the boardroom.

Yeah. I mean, and so really, I mean this is almost a short point. But you know, point four is reforming the boardroom and five is how we transform from a growth to a sustainably sustainable economic model. I mean, they're kind of tied together. But here's the point of the boardroom. We, we, we, we're often said that this is a man's world and that the corporate world is a man's world. Well, I don't believe that. I actually don't believe it is within anybody's normal way of functioning and acting. And, and when I talk about people with this pretty much Actually, I don't, I don't know any single person who disagrees with this. But you go into a boardroom and it is who can be loudest, who gets their ideas on the table first, who can control the environment, who is shutting down, basically other voices and other people working to this brutal timetable of getting things done. And when you looked and I spent so much of my life in boardrooms and in multicultural boardrooms from the Middle east to Asia to Europe, North America. I have chaired boards, I've sat on boards. And when you're in this environment, which is effectively, when you're in a classic boardroom, which is working with the CEO and the head of the company about maximizing profits and maximizing revenue and maximizing growth, and there is this, this attitude, this assumed way of how people are supposed to be working, but it is not the true nature of people. It isn't. And this was part of the conflict that I was having. And I have no issue with engaging discussion and debate and people arguing and even abruptly disagreeing as long as we are always civil and kind to each other. Right. Once you start getting over those, now you're moving into. I'm just going to win. I'm just here to win this argument. We are not coming at it from a spiritual. From a spiritual space. So we go into these corporate structures that I think are so antithetical to how humans function in terms of going in, playing this role, doing this thing. Everybody is there to be maximizing money. We want to be increasing our salary. We want to be increasing the revenue of the company. It doesn't work. And this is why you have an 80% dissatisfaction rate. And this isn't some random number by some little group based in Ohio. I mean, this is from Deloitte. This is one of the largest research and finance companies in the world that does an annual survey of satisfaction within the workplace. So something, something is wrong here. And so we need to be kind of coming at this. And what, what it begs is this, and this is a little bit more complicated discussion is that, you know, when we're saying that the corporate world is a man's world, it's really, we're talking about feminine energy and masculine energy. And feminine energy energy does not belong to women and masculine energy does not belong to belong to men. Both are made up of both. But the problem is, is that we have taken this masculine energy as the assumption for how we be, how we should be running the world. And what is that leading to? That's leading to this, this lack of civility in politics. This is looking at our leadership. Just take the United States for example. But look at what's happening in Brazil, look at what's happening in Hungary, look at what's happening in the UK right now. Look at what is happen, happened in Australia over the, over the past 10 years. When you have this leadership that is there, that is driven from the intellect, that is playing from a populist position, that is not coming from a true spiritual center about what can we be doing that is good for the world. We're going to continue to be in this environment that really is so out of alignment with people. It just, I mean to me there's no surprise white people aren't happy. And so that kind of ties into this next point which is around, which is this gets us into this huge, huge argument where if you're not capitalist then you're a communist. Well, those aren't the choices. We can be having a capitalist model. And I'll give you a perfect example. Take Australia's the Great Barrier Reef and their coral reefs are getting destroyed. It's getting destroyed because of global warming. It's getting destroyed because they were out there and overfishing and doing a whole bunch of different things. And they said we need to be doing something around it. So what they did is they've now done sustainable tourism so you can take people out, go there in a sustainable way in a, managed, in a, in an organized fashion. That's, that's, that's driven by the government and by organizations. As to taking people out there, well, you're now making much more money because people are going there, they want to see this beauty, they want to see all the stuff that's happening. And you can take the same model, apply it to hunting in Africa. I mean it doesn't take, it's no rocket science. My 12 year old daughter can tell you if you keep killing the elephants, the elephants are going to go away and die. But you have a small group of people that feels it's okay to go kill an elephant, kill a giraffe, kill a rhino. Well, what about the millions if not billions of people in the world that would give anything to go on a safari in Africa to be around these beautiful animals. Well, you see, one is driven by this capitalist idea. Well, we need to allow the guy who's going to pay us a million dollars to go kill an elephant. But once you start to see underneath all these different things the economic model for how we can be doing sustainable, sustainable economies, it's really powerful. And even.

Are you familiar with the, was it the B Corp?

Yes. Huh. Yeah. And those.

So I, what's your take on B Corps?

Well, I mean, I just, I think that that is just a great way for, for, for, for companies to be able to participate in, in models that are more, that are simply more value. Value aligned. And so it is, I don't think there's significantly much more to that, but it's about applying a consciousness to the economy. And right now we have an unconscious economy. And it's basically because we are driven on quarters, we are driven on months, we are driven on years. We don't look to the future. When you have CEOs, they don't give a shit what is going to be happening in that company in five years. Most of them, they really don't. They know they're going to be there for five years. They're going to get in and out. If someone can pay them $120 million a year, then $100 million a year, they're going to go to another company. Well, they may say, so how, how.

Would you, to tie them together? What would you change if you could change it right, right now the board, what the boardroom thinks about and the economic and economic model, if you had the ability to change it today.

Well, so this is, this is pretty much what, you know, what, what, what I talk about. So yeah, there's an, there's an individual aspect, there is a, there is a systemic aspect and then there is a, there's a government aspect to this. So if we can reform it at the education level, where we are putting out children into society who are balanced between their head and their heart, I believe that it will address this because you won't have unconscious economic behavior driving, driving their activity. I mean, if you have someone that is spiritually grounded and connected, there is no way, even if they're the CEO of McDonald's, where they're going to be going in and saying like, well, you know, let's just go cut down that rainforest because it'll give us a, you know, a point profitability increase, you know, over, over the next 12 months. So there is that level at the other level, from the top end, from the government end, we can be focusing on the environment, on I would say green practice and building economies that are around some of these industries that are driving, that are driving green models like say renewable energy models or water purification systems or, I mean, there's a whole variety of them. And then in the middle, you know, at the, at the corporate Level, you know, we need to, I mean it's, it's an impossible thing. But the stock market is a total disaster to, to be having, you know, and I in the stock market. But the stock market is only driven by, by numbers. It really isn't about the values of the company or the people of the company. All that stuff is just, is just for pr, optics and everything else. So what it's going to take is, it's going to take strong leadership from organizations that are going to say we do want to give good jobs to people, we do want to create growth, but we need to be making more difficult choices for the long term in terms of how we're operating and how we're functioning. So the latest example that I can think about, and it's probably, to me it's like almost the devil incarnate, but Coca Cola actually pulled out of the US And I don't know the name of it. It's the organization that lobbies for the plastic companies in the United States. And the amount of money that is poured into this lobby is unbelievable. Well, Coca Cola and I believe Pepsi, but I'm not totally sure, said they are no longer supporting this organization and they are not part of this organization. Well, you've now taken the biggest plastic producer in the world and they are saying they're not going to be supporting it. Well, that is a great win. And so if you're able to get this ripple effect, the domino effect of one corporation after another saying like, you know, we're going to transform how we, how we make plastic. We're going to transform so that we have biodegradable materials. We're going to transform and support recycling organizations rather than putting our money for lobbying the governments to be able to allow us to make the cheapest plastic that's possible. So I think there's this, there's this, there's this, this triumvirate I guess, of between the individual, the government and the corporation that needs, that needs to be addressing these. But my focus, where I think will have the longest, the longest gain or the biggest gain and the longest long term output is where we transform the education system. Because this education system, the outcome is inevitable because there is tied to achievement and it's tied to money which is then tied to all these other aspects of the economy where you've now trained a kid for 20 years. And so how are you going to be able to get a kid to change their mind after 20 years of being told that we need to have this capitalistic model so it's not anti capitalism. It's. It's anti unsustainable growth. So we need sustainable models rather than growth models.

Okay. So I just, I pulled up a data point point that might just add to your comments. June 18, 2019, Coca Cola announced that its glass of smart water bottles will be made from 100% recycled plastic by the end of the year in a move that is expected to remove 3,100. 3,100. 3,100 tons of virgin plastic from circulation.

Yes.

So that's just. They, they have. There, there is a commitment there and in one way to make a difference.

Yeah. And you're seeing.

Let's go ahead.

I was just going to say you're seeing this with companies like Starbucks and some of the other bigger companies that really have the power to significantly change how we do things. And so that is where it's going to take moral leadership within these organizations to be doing that.

Okay, so the last point you had was listen and connect. Going back, I'm assuming, to the authenticity and listening to ourselves.

Yeah. And this, I mean, this is everything. I mean, you can actually forget all the other stuff, but that is what is going to be required, I think, to be doing this. But when we're able to listen and connect to who we are, to our inner voice, this is when we're going to be making the right, the right decisions. We always intuitively know what the right decisions are. We do. We know that we shouldn't rape someone. We know that we shouldn't yell at someone. We know that we shouldn't be hurting someone sexually. We know we shouldn't be stealing from someone. We know it. There's no one that's going to be arguing for these different things. But why do these things happen? They happen when there is a disconnect. And so let me give you a simple, a very visceral example of this that kind of ties down to this. So let's say you and I, David, have never met before in our entire lives. Never met. And we're here in Bali and we're walking down the street and you're on your smartphone and I'm on my smartphone and it's crowded and it's hot. We run into each other and we bump into each other and we turn. Typically, the response is, hey, come on, what are you doing? Or God, what an idiot. Or, God, what that jerk? Or that damn American. Or, you know, we'll make up something. We will. We will.

I would have hugged you. I would have hugged you and said, I'm so sorry.

Well, good. I like that. And there are a few people that will do that. Right, okay. But in general, we. We don't respond overly fairly unless you're in a place like Japan where everybody is apologizing. And it's very, very nice and civil in that regard. But now, let's say now you and I have got to know each other much more. But let's say you and I even just spent an hour with each other over lunch. Let's say we met in Ubud, we had a lunch with each other, and a week later we're walking down the street and we bump into each other and the same thing. And we turn and what do we do? Oh, hey, David. Oh, hey, Chris. God, sorry about that. I'm busy, you know. How are the kids? I'll call you next week. I'll talk to you next week. It is a very simple connection that removes any level of objectification that happens right there. And we do this objectivity all the time, us versus them, Black versus white, Muslim versus Christian. It is applied everywhere. Look at the media, look at what's happening this week or this past week where you've had 30 people who have been killed by mass shooters in the United States. And the reaction to it is quite different. When it's a white male, if that was a Muslim person, the reaction would be completely, completely different. And then we would be condemning all those people. Those people in the Middle east, those people in Syria, those people, those people. But you see, when you know someone and you are connected to them, you can't hurt them. You can't hurt them. You can't be mean to them. You can't. Well, in most cases, sometimes we're not always so nice to our. The people we're closest to in the family. But this connection only happens when we're connected to ourselves. When we're connected to ourselves, you can be connected to another individual, to a community, to a wired, wider part of the world. See, why is it that there is no reason why we can't look at the entire world, the 7 billion people or 7/2 billion people that are in the world, and simply assume that we love them as much as that we love our own children? Because if we knew them, we would love them. But we can't love 7 and a half billion people in the world. So we intellectually objectify them and we put them into blocks, into different groups. So this is the power that we need to be able to get into us. We need to be able to connect to the inner voice. And this comes through a number and it can come through meditation or just sitting quiet or quieting your mind, acting on your intuition. And you know, as we get back to that story of, you know, Eugene o' Kelly and we look at prioritizing, why do we not prioritize those people who are closest to us and those people that are around us? It's because we're being pulled to be doing these other things. And you know, this, this part about listening, connecting. And again, there's so many groups, schools, education systems, religions that are constantly talking about, I mean, it's a, it's a common philosophy of Buddhism, of Hinduism, you know, even Christianity and Islam to a particular extent. But, but, you know, there's a group in the States which I probably say highlights us the best. And it's called the Hoffman Institute. It's based in California. It's been running for over 55 years. It's the longest running personal development organization that exists within, within the United States. And people go there and what they're going there is to be addressing a whole number of issues. And they have had hundreds of thousands of people that have gone through these programs and now they're international. But what is it doing? It's effectively looking at this concept of the quadrinity of the spirit, the intellect, the emotion and the intellectual aspects. And it's realigning them so that the adult can reconnect with their spirit, so that they are not being driven by their head and their intellect. So everything that I've actually talked to you about, what Green School is doing, what Finland is doing, there is a group that's been running for 55 years and this is the basis of their argument for why we have so many problems and stuff societies. And so, and people typically come to it because it's, it's driven by developing patterns that we get from our parents or surrogates and all the, and all these different things. But their whole work, their entire work is based around how we listen and reconnect with our spiritual and our spiritual side. Because when we do that, when we authentically do that, David, then we are able to go and engage the world in the way that we were intended, which is not just through our mind. I'm not dissing the mind, but not just through our mind, but from our heart and from our emotion and from a genuine, loving, kind center. And when we do that, we don't hurt people. We make the right choices. We make the right choices for ourselves and we make the right choices for Society. And so that action and activity really is the key to everything that we've been talking about today.

And I, to some degree, that's how you and I connected.

Yes. Yeah.

That was, for those of you listening, I presented at this group and it was just we connected as a group. Question. If I was to have met you before Bali and I then met today's you, what are the three or four differences I would notice?

Well, the. So that is roughly a 10 year span. So I was in my early to mid-40s to where I'm 55 now. You'd see a lot of the same, for one. So it's not like you're seeing this completely different person. And as we talked a little bit about my personal journey, but the areas that you would see different is that I feel much more connected to my true self. And I'm able to know when I'm being driven by my head and my intellect as opposed to my, my, my spiritual side. And so I'm able to, to put that into balance and have that understanding. The second thing is, is that I feel that I just have more tools to be able to deal with a lot of these issues of the world. So when I'm feeling sad or when I'm feeling upset or when I'm feeling depressed or maybe having a challenge with my wife or my children and things like that, I know that if I do come from it, from the side that we've been talking about, my outcome and my success is much greater than if I'm approaching it from my intellect. And the third thing is, I'd say that I understand that life is quite short, right? I mean, we like to think that 82 years is an incredible amount of time and we have all this time in the world. But when you look at the billions of years that the world has been around and the very short time that mankind has been around yet we're just this, this tiny little blip. And we are temporal, you know, in our, in our existence. You know, we don't do, we do not live forever. And even this house, in this room, this isn't going to be around in a thousand years. I'm not going to be around in 100 years. My children won't be around in 100 years. All this stuff that we're talking about now and focusing on in the world right now that we think is important, this focus on Trump, this focus on all these different things, all this stuff will be, will be gone. So, you know, so why, you know, why are we here? What Are we, what are we doing as, as a humanity? You know, I mean, what is our, is our legacy, right? And that, and, and you know, there's that, that quote, I can't, not sure where it came from. But basically, you know, our legacy, our seeds that we plant in a garden that we'll never see grow. And I think that that's so meaningful and so, so powerful to be able to be able to understand that because we give ourselves such self importance, right? We, you know, our egos and we want to be important and we want to be doing all these things and, and, but really, I mean, we are insignificant and wholly significant all at the same time. There's this duality that exists. And so I'm very comfortable with, with, with my life and who I am and, and where I am. It doesn't mean that I still don't have a lot of questions, doesn't mean that I don't wake up some days and going what the hell is going on? But I'm able to come back and reground and re. Center and accept, you know, a lot of the, the truths of that. I think that that exists within this world. And, but I do know basically in the end, and you and I talked a little bit about this, my motto is basically just do good, be good. You know, and being good, doing good, be good, effectively means being kind. And a lot of people think like, oh God, it's just, you know, this is a guy from Northern California and stuff like that. But when I'm talking about being kind, I'm talking about, you know, being kind to myself. So do I eat well? Do I get enough sleep? Do I, you know, am I not drinking too much alcohol? Am I not smoking when I'm being kind? Am I being kind to my family when I'm being kind? Am I being a good employee when I'm being kind, Am I being kind to the environment? I'm being kind to the community, Am I being kind to you? You know, as we engage with each other? So if we are kind, all this other stuff flows through. But the problem is, is that we sometimes think that we're being kind, but then it's okay for us to be unkind in all these other things. So if we are categorically kind across, you know, across everything, we won't have any issues in the world. We just, we will not have any issues in the world. And that's the world that I would love to see. I'm just not sure I'm going to see it in, in my in my lifetime. But I know what it would look like and how it would feel. So.

I'm going to make a little joke here. It would have been kind if you like started a half hour earlier. So.

You know, I joke now. I have to.

I planned on being in Hong Kong and I'm in Luxembourg, so It's going on 434, 35 in the morning. So I've been up all night. So I'm not being kind to my body. So I thought all of that was kind of cute. As we're going along. That was a nice little wrap up that you and I don't mean little to belittle you. It was a nice little summary of some of the things that you're looking to change and how you're listening, you're working on, listening to yourself. These are always attempts to, to make steps forward. And I, I also appreciated that you have a very short synopsis of who you are because there are people who have these long run on sentences about all the things that they're going to have in their life and do in their lives and it was very succinct. So I appreciated that.

Oh, great. Well, thank you. But it's been, I've enjoyed getting to know you and listen to you and I find you very inspiring and I really appreciate you having this discussion with me this morning and it's always nice talking to you, David.

Well, thank you. I've enjoyed the experiences I've had with you too. And that's the reason I wanted you on the program. So that some of these things that you're thinking can permeate through the universe, through the ether, through the ecosystem and vibrate around. So I really do appreciate you taking the time. I know you were a little concerned about how this would go.

I.

You did a phenomenal job. So thank you.

That's great.

Well, thank you, David, for everybody. I'd like you. Thank you for taking the time to out of your day to listen in, to hear a different perspective on a topic. I do hope that you've learned something from today and that it will make a difference in your life and the lives of others. Always remember, you can't fix yesterday. You can only create tomorrow. That's where we stand. So if you'd. I'd love to connect with you. If you're interested, you can reach me@davidavidgoldsmith.com Instagram is Mr. David Goldsmith. You can connect on Twitter @DavidGoldsmith, LinkedIn, Facebook, all of those tools are available to anybody who's interested. Once again, thank you very much, Chris, for taking the time today, and I'm David Goldsmith, and thank you for listening.