#35 – Annie Maguire: Conversion Copywriting Tips and Tricks

My name is Khalil Slade, and I love to talk about conversion rate optimization.

I'm Simba, and I love asking questions about conversion optimization.

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Hello. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the CRO Live, our podcast, a show where we talk all things conversion rate optimization, a B testing, and experimentation. I'm your host, Simba Dube, and today we have a special episode in store for you. Most of the times I usually co host with Khaled, but today I'm going solo. But there is nothing to worry about because I have an exciting interview to share with you. I had an opportunity to chat with Annie Maguire, a brilliant conversion copywriter who has worked with big brands like Samsung, Current, Visa, Amino, and many more. In this episode, Annie and I delve into the art of conversion copywriting. We discuss how to craft persuasive copy that drives action, and she even shares a recommendation for the best conversion copywriting books out there. But before we get into the podcast, I have to admit this interview was recorded a while ago, but the insights Annie shares are pure gold and still highly valuable today. So whether a seasoned marketer, aspiring copywriter, or simply interested in the power of.

Persuasion, you don't want to miss this episode.

So let's get straight into it.

Tell us more. Who's any.

Okay, so I love that. That's such a great question. You know, I'm still figuring the answers out every single day, but I guess I'll start with what I do professionally, which might be more relevant to the listeners on this podcast. But I'm a copywriter, and I've been a copywriter for about 10 years now. I have done a mix of copywriting and strategy work and analytics work. So I guess kind of all combined. It's been about 10 years and I was working in agencies for a long time and then I started my business about six years ago and I've been freelance, you know, working on my own stuff ever since with my own clients. So that's me professionally. In terms of personally. I live in Brooklyn, as we just covered. I'm in New York, consider myself a New Yorker. I've been here for over a decade and I really love it here. But my husband and I actually just bought a house in Connecticut. So we are going to be moving there. Yeah, thank you so much. We're going to be moving there in about a year and I don't think we're going to say goodbye to New York forever. We'll definitely visit, but I think it'll be an interesting change of pace. But yeah, I've been married for about a year. I've got a dog. I'm one of six. I love to cook. I love to do yoga. Yeah, that's a little bit about me.

Nice. What kind of like agencies have you been working for? Did you work for before?

Yeah, so I started my career working at 360i, which is like a big advertising agency in New York. I think that they're actually global now, like London offices, and I think maybe one in Germany or so. I forget exactly where. But yeah, I started there in 2010, which feels like forever ago at this point.

I was probably at high school back then in 2010.

I know it's crazy. It's crazy how fast time flies. Like, I think that was, you know, just when I had graduated college and I had taken a couple of internships leading up to that. To that job. And in 2010, that was when, you know, social media was like, just starting to be a thing for businesses. So it was a very interesting time to be working in that industry for sure. And from there I worked there for like three years. And then I started working at for Russell Simmons agency, which is so random. Like, he started this small agency and I was like one of like 10 people who worked at this agency. And it was crazy. Lots of work, you know, working with celebrities and writing commercials and like doing a lot of the fancy stuff that you kind of think about when you think about advertising agencies, you know, taking those big pitch meetings and sitting in a room full of executives and pitching this idea, you know, very cool stuff. And then I moved from there to a branding agency in Brooklyn for a little bit where we focus more on like packaging and like, tone of voice development and really, like the aesthetic part of brands. So it was just a really interesting journey working in all these different agencies. And then right after that, I started freelancing, and I haven't looked back since.

Nice. Nice.

Yeah.

I realized, like, most of the people who are into marketing, copywriting and those other things, most of them, no one, like, grew up saying, I want to be a copywriter writer. No one grew up saying, I want to be a marketer. So for you, like, growing up, since we are talking about your break, your background, what did you want to do?

I feel like I always was drawn to writing as being one of six. There's sort of that. There's the chaos part and then there's the very kind of introverted part to get away from the chaos. And I think I'd really like to kind of be by myself, developing stories, writing, reading. That was kind of what made me feel comfortable and happiest. So I spent a lot of my childhood kind of creating stories and characters and all that. And then I think I lost it for a long time because I think kids, especially back then, it was like, you can't be a writer. You can't make money, you know. So I don't think I was encouraged to really go down that path too far. Even though it was something that I really enjoyed and was important to me. I think I sort of went down the, like, more traditional route, like, you gotta focus on a job that makes money and is successful, all that stuff. So I wasn't thinking about it. And then, of course, as you know, you leave college, you get into the workforce, you're sort of drawn to these jobs, like copywriting, for example, that allow you to revisit, I think, the passions that you had from childhood, but in a way that's more financially responsible, let's say. So that's translation from childhood into adulthood. It was always that writing passion kind of followed me throughout my life. And here I am now, still doing it in my 30s, and I'm thinking even now about kind of moving toward doing some more creative writing in my side hustle or off time. So it's kind of cool.

Do you have, like, any interesting projects that you're writing that you're working on right now? Like, in terms of maybe copy, Maybe you're working with some. You're working with interesting companies and writing their copy. Do you have, like, any projects that you're working on?

Always, always. Lots of fun projects. They're all actually quite interesting, you know, because they're all so different. Like, I think unlike a lot of copywriters, I don't have a specific niche in terms of the kind of business I work with. I work more with businesses that want to increase conversions. It doesn't necessarily matter what it is that you're selling, but if we're aligned on that, we can work together. So my point is, is that there's sort of a wide gamut of all these different, very interesting companies that I work on. And I just thought back right before our call, I was like, what have I been working on, you know, this year or the past two years that I've been interesting? And a couple have come to mind. One is, is actually a nonprofit organization called Challenge Success. I worked with them in 2020 and they just launched their website this fall. And it's awesome. Like it was just so cool. I don't know if you've ever worked with a nonprofit before, but it's like everything always takes like double or triple the amount of time it should take because there's a lot of stakeholders and buy in and like all this crazy stuff. It can definitely be like a challenging type of client to work on. But at the same time, when it comes to, to the launch, it's almost like that much more exciting getting to see all the hard work come to fruition. So that was really cool. They had this website that was like really confusing and dated and clunky and me and my design partner worked with them to, through research, you know, create this really modern and beautiful website that's really user friendly, sleek ladders back up to their conversion goals. So that was awesome, helping a couple of brands launch. You know, like I worked on this client, a SaaS client called Fraud Finder. And that is a company that helps forensic accountants detect fraud in financial goings on. And that was a brand new piece of software that we help create and then launch from a marketing perspective. That was really cool. And then some clients that are more like trying to just pivot and like do better in terms of conversion or clarity or whatever. Like some e commerce brands. I just worked on a pet company that sells this really cool supplement for dogs. Who else? Like a carpet cleaning business that's in Toronto. You know, like all different kinds of companies that are just like investing and wanting to do better for their marketing or for their customers. And it's really cool.

It's not like every day that I get to talk to a copywriter who doesn't have like a certain niche. Most of them, like they focus on specific Companies.

So do you have like a certain.

Process that you follow when you're creating copy for a certain company? Or you just have like one main process for each and every company that you do that you work with.

It's pretty much the same process regardless of the company. More so because the end result is usually the same. So that helps kind of create this sort of process that you can fit on top of different kinds of businesses and goals. But yeah, the process is pretty much we start with discovery. So that means having them fill out my discovery questionnaire that helps me understand their business and their customers and their products, their competitors, you know, all that good stuff. Usually some kind of like a stakeholder interview, I call it a strategy workshop where I jump on the phone with the client and get to know their business in their words. You know, oftentimes rehashing what they wrote in the discovery questionnaire or filling in gaps between what they said and what I need to know. And then there's always a research component. So that could involve one on one interviews with their customers, surveys, sometimes a combination of both. Usability testing, like all different kinds of ways where we're maybe evaluating their site or landing page or email sequence in some capacity and then using fresh research or even research that they could have conducted on their own, or combining that all together to really get a better sense of, okay, big picture, where are you now with the messaging or the marketing and based on the research, where do I know you need to be? And that's where I put all that insight into an Insights report which recaps all the things that I've learned, my recommendations. And then based on that we create the information architecture for the website or the landing page, or in the case of an email sequence, it would be more like an outline. And then once that's approved, we fill it in with copy and that's again informed by the research and sometimes, you know, client ideas or things that we had discussed in earlier meetings. But it's all very research driven and it's like I said, pretty much the same like five, six step process.

So how long does the research take? And when you're, let's say you're conducting a research, what exactly are you looking for?

Great question. So the timeline usually is anywhere from three to six months depending on the project. Most projects I would say on average are like in the three month block. But you know, if it's a really big project and a huge website, it could take a little bit longer. And then in terms of the research, it depends a Little bit on the project in terms of what I'm looking for, but it usually comes back to, I'm looking for voice of customer data, of course, because that's going to inform copy, and then also just overall understanding how this audience communicates and putting that into my brain. So that way when I go to write, I can sort of bring that up and reflect it back into the words. I'm also looking for any kind of data that can help me understand how to shape the architecture of the site. So, for example, challenges, goals, objections that someone could have to potentially buying the product, something that could motivate them to buy the product. You know, have they used a competing product before? How did that experience compare to what this current product that they could be potentially buying or evaluating? So it's a lot of just really understanding who the customer is. What are their challenges, what are their goals, what are the motivations, what are the objections? Those are kind of the key, I would say. You know, obviously there's more beyond that. What kind of questions do they have about these kinds of products or what are they willing to pay for this kind of product? You know, it just depends a little bit on the goals of the project. But I'm looking for that primarily.

Okay, nice. So you've been doing like conversion copywriting for a long time. What are the mistakes? Maybe something that people tend to misunderstand when it comes to conversion copywriting or when it comes to copy. The brands, the mistakes that brands make when it comes to copy, some of.

The bigger ones are not doing research. I think that's probably the biggest one is people think, oh, it's just copy, it's words on a page. Like, why don't we just make it up? Or why don't I just write it myself? Or the copywriter can just write it or whatever. So I think assuming that copy is just wordsmithing or words on a page, when in reality it should be driven by data, it should be driven by what your customers are saying about your company or your product. It should really be driven by that versus something else. And then the other one is probably kind of related to that is taking a design first approach to copy instead of a what I would call a data or strategy first approach. You know, I don't think it's about, oh, is it copy first? Is it design first? I think actually copy and design, once you get past the research and the strategy, should work in tandem together to create something really awesome. But you really need to do that strategy first. That the strategy and the Research first before you can get to the point where you are creating architecture and design and copy. Because those are kind of like the last pieces. Those are the, in my opinion, almost like the least important part. Because if you have the research done and you have the strategy done, everything else is so much easier after that.

Yeah, yeah, true. So let's say you have worked with one brand this year, and then maybe the projects end after about six months. When is the next time you think that brand should maybe change their copy?

That is such a great question. And I feel like it really depends on the kind of product in the industry that they're in. So, for example, with this nonprofit that I just worked on, this is a company that. Or organization, I should say, that doesn't have a lot of budget, they don't have a lot of resources. So for them to go through a revamp of their entire site, that's a huge investment for them. And I wouldn't recommend for a company like that to go through that process again for at least a few years. You know, unless something really drastic changes about their company, I don't think they would need to do a revamp again anytime soon. Of course, you know, as technology changes or the way people engage with, you know, their site might change and that could potentially impact things. And they might want to change things based on just like technology and innovation, but in terms of content and strategy, I don't think they would need much. But that's an established organization that is not, not in a constant state of flux. Like, for example, a SaaS company might be where they're constantly evolving the product. They might be in different stages of development of the product, and that could require a lot of pivoting and changes depending on what phase they're in. So, for example, like this year, I started in January on this project for Userleap, which is like a SaaS company that I would say at the time was. It was beyond mvp, but it was sort of like they were still trying to figure out what it was to focus on and what sort of message they should be using and what part of the product was most valuable to their customers. And despite us launching this whole new site with new copy and everything, I think in like April of this year, or maybe it was May, I can't remember exactly. They have already done a whole other revamp to change not everything that we worked on. There's a lot of things that are still in intact, but I think they changed their homepage and a couple of other things. So for a company like that that still is trying to define themselves. It could be a couple times a year, if not more, who knows? But I think on average, I would say that most companies probably don't need to do a revamp more than once every one to two, three years. You know, I think again, it just depends on the competitiveness of the industry though. It depends on so many other factors. Even me, for example, like I try to update my own website at least once every one to three years, you know, because it is a competitive space and you want to stand out and you want to make it seem like you're always doing new things, you're always evolving as a writer. So it's important to reflect that in your marketing, you know.

Okay, so let's say you get hired by E commerce company, right? Where do you start? Which page do you focus on first? Is it like the one page, the product pages, where do you start?

So it depends actually on the product, the site, a lot of different things. Like for example, the homepage is always important because you usually when it comes to where people are visiting, they're always going to, I shouldn't say always, but in a lot of cases they're going to either a product page or the homepage. And yes, they're going to visit pages in between. Of course, people could land on the about page or the contact page or whatever, the why us Page. There's a lots of different ways that could happen. But whether you're sending people to the page directly, whether through direct traffic or ads, they're going to go to probably a product page or possibly the homepage or possibly an audience specific landing page. Right. So there's always like a couple of key pages on a project I'm trying to think like about a project that I just wrapped with a client for this like pet supplement company that I mentioned earlier. For that project we were focused specifically on the homepage and a product page for one of their products, like their most popular product. So in that case we were really just honing in on those two. For other clients though, it might be the homepage, one or two product pages and maybe like their wholesalers page or their about page or whatever. So I think it just again kind of depends on the client and their needs and goals.

One thing that I have noticed when it comes to like marketing and maybe copywriting and other stuff is people love best practices.

They love that.

Yeah, yeah, they follow those a lot.

But I don't think that all of.

Them may be the ideal for each and every brand. Do you have like, one copywriting best practice that you think is not ideal, but people still believe in it. But as in someone who's an expecting this, you think it doesn't work well.

Well, you know, it's funny that you say that, because I actually think that a lot of the best practices in copywriting and CRO are good. No matter what happens with technology or Time or brands, those best practices stick around. They still work, you know, So I think that I can't think of anything specifically that's like, that practice is bad. I mean, I think there's a lot of bad copywriting practices in general. Like, I talked about, you know, being too driven by design versus copy or not using research. You know, I think those are the bad best practices that sometimes I want people to stop doing. But I don't know. I mean, sometimes I think people put a little too much emphasis on, like, formulas. I think formulas are great to help you maybe structure a page or your messaging or your idea. But I don't think it's the kind of thing where it's like, I just pick one out of thin air and, like, put it on the page and it works. Like, I think, again, still need to do the hard work of the research and the testing and all that stuff before you can even get to the point of choosing a formula. But sometimes I feel like people maybe make it sound like it's like, oh, I just use this formula and like, magically the copy will, like, write itself, which I don't really think is true.

Yeah, true, true. Personally, I'm not, like, a fan of best practices because they make, like, everyone look the same. You know, if we use the same template and the next person use the same template, we're all going to be. We're not going to be innovative or something like that. Okay, that makes sense. Do you have, like, any conversion books that changed the way you think or. Not just conversion books or just any books that change the way you think in terms of copywriting that you can. And maybe to our listeners, this is.

All books people talk about and know. I don't know if you can see this, but so Ogilvy on advertising. This is an excellent book. This is the book Breakthrough Advertising. Breakthrough Advertising by Eugene Schwartz is awesome. Again, it's expensive, but if you read this book, and you read this book, these two books are. Your brain will have an explosion. And then when I was just starting out, I read this book. Hey, Whipple, squeeze this. This was recommended to me by one of my old art directors at 360i and it was just cool. Like there's a lot of really old ads in here and talking about, you know, I think just seeing good copy in action, even if it's like from old timey ads or whatever. I think that it's really helpful just to see how like people structure their arguments and, you know, how they demonstrate and all these different things that we still use today, but in different ways. Those are just a couple of books that I really liked. And then another one I'm thinking of is like the Copywriter's Handbook. I'm thinking more of like people who are just starting out. Whipple and the Copywriter's Handbook were two, like very simple but kind of great introductions to the world of copy. Those were for me. And then if you're more advanced, I think Breakthrough Advertising, Ogilvy on advertising and then also Joanna Wiebe's courses. She's from copyhackers. Like 10x landing pages pretty much changed my entire business. So I think 10x landing pages with Breakthrough Advertising and Ogilvy is of course there are plenty of other great books out there, but those are my three resources that I would highly recommend.

I think I have read like the wepo one.

Yeah, it's great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I still haven't finished it. I have a tendency studying books and not finishing them.

And that's you and me both. It's not easy and there's so much out there. It's like, like we all have shiny object syndrome. You pick up one book, you read a few chapters or half of it and then you grab something else. So I completely understand that.

Yeah. So what are the things that you want to change or improve in the next, let's say three months or during this quarter? Like things relating to your business?

Yeah, that's a great question. I definitely want to redo my website again, which I did. I think it was like three years ago, maybe two years ago. I redid my website and I really like it a lot because. And my developer and my designer agree. I just want to make a change from WordPress to a more sophisticated platform. So I'm going to do that. Well, I might start it this quarter and then bleed into next year or start it in next. Early next year. So that's one thing. I also am launching a nurture sequence for my free downloads that I have been putting off for months. It's terrible. I need to do it, but I've just been so busy I haven't had a chance. I'm starting it literally next week and I'm not finished. I'm going to not finish this month until it is launched and that's what I've told myself. And I need to get out two more blog posts for the end of the year to hit my goal. I try to get one out every month and didn't work out perfectly this year, but I think I got out at the end of this year it will be eight if I could just get out these next two. So that would be great. I'm launching two more case studies for my site and then next year I'm running a promotion in November for my course that I launched earlier this year. I'm going to be doing a more hands on learning experience with the people who sign up this year for next year. So going to be figuring that out and lots of things going on now that we're talking about it.

Nice, nice.

Okay, before I let you go, what.

Should be like the one main takeaway for our listeners when it comes to what we have been talking about? Copywriting? If there's like one takeaway you can share with them, what would it be?

So I think that the main takeaway is if you use a research first approach to copywriting, you can't go wrong. I think, yes, follow best practices, you could be creative, you could be a great writer. But if you just let the research guide you, you're going to end up in a better place both in terms of the process that gets you through the project and the end result for the client. And that's as simple as it can be.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you for taking your time to do this with me.

Okay.