#37 – Running An Experimentation Program On E-commerce Websites

It's an engine, and the minute you get the hang of it, you cannot walk away from it. You're like, oh, so here's exactly what I need to be working on next. Here's what people are asking for, and here's how I'm going to address it on my site. What are the three mistakes that are killing conversions for any type of websites? Those three mistakes that most websites are doing are the reason that your conversion rate is not high to the level that it should be at. And most of the time, as I navigate from one website to the next, I see those mistakes consistently. So let's talk about each of those mistakes, and let's see what you can do about them. My name is Kalis Slade, and I love to talk about conversion rate optimization.

I'm Simba, and I love asking questions about conversion optimization.

This is CRO Live Hour, a show all about a B testing, experimentation and conversion rate optimization.

Each episode, Khaled amazes me, answering some of the difficult CRO questions, dropping insights like, no big deal.

Well, pretty much every episode will take on a new set of conversion rate optimization questions that are not easy. We will talk strategies, we will talk process, and we will talk tactics. Simba will be bringing all the questions.

Oh, man. I bring tough questions like, do a B testing results fade over time? How do you go from low to high testing velocity? How do you measure the success of a conversion funnel? And how do you align your CRO program with a growth strategy? Yeah, Khalid, these are very, very tough questions.

Yes, they are, but we always answer them here. And if you love conversion optim like we do, and certainly like Simba does. Subscribe to the CRO Live Hour podcast today wherever you listen to your podcasts. And we are live. Another episode, CRO Live Hour. I forgot the name of the show, which is very funny.

It's actually like an interesting meme. I wonder, like, people who listen to the podcast, every time they see, like, the word live, they probably think maybe we're live at the moment they are listening to us, or something like that.

Go figure. We just try and add a little bit of confusion, you know, but it's fun nonetheless. Oh, gosh, another week. What are we? May 25, 2023. Can't believe we're almost halfway through the year. Time is flying. It is a sign of the time, and it is a sign that I am getting older every day. So it is what it is.

I think, like, sometimes time flies when you are busy. You won't see what's happening. We've been busy, like in the past, all of this year.

We've been busy, I would say for the last 12 months. It's been so many experiments, kind of like especially when it comes to marketing, even when it comes to FIGPI and building the product and the new features and so many changes when it comes to invesp. So it's been fascinating, successful experiments. You're either making mistakes or succeeding learning. And if you don't choose that, then you're failing. And you gotta make the decision because if you don't, then others are making the decision for you or life is making the decision for you. And when life decides for you, sometimes is not pretty. So, Simba, how was your week?

It's been a good week. I've been super busy the rest of the other weeks, but I'm enjoying the ride. I'm learning a lot. I'm working on new stuff on the FIGPI side, like in terms of creating some of the website pages and stuff. So it's been good. It's been good.

That's awesome. That is awesome. And of course, if you've been listening to CRO Live Hour or you've been watching us on LinkedIn, you know, soccer is a big deal over here and unfortunately we're ramping things down. It's sort of sad, but maybe I'm glad that the season and the Premier League is coming to a finish. Today is going to be interesting. I know Simba is going to be watching. I'm going to be watching. So anyways, when it comes to soccer, but Seattle Live hour will continue. And by the way, if you are listening to the show, we have weekly listeners, which is really fascinating. I love that. We appreciate you listening to it. Would love for you to like it wherever you're listening to it. Comment, leave us a positive review. But with that, we have a ton of questions this week. Like, you know, we've had a couple of weeks with slow questions and today I'm like, I was looking at it. I'm like, this is not the CRO live hour. This is CRO 2 live hours. But anyways, let's see what we can finish. Where do we start?

I'll just like shoot the first question.

That we have, but the first question that I got, what are the three mistakes that are killing conversions for any type of websites? Those three mistakes that most websites are doing are the reason that your conversion rate is not high to the level that it should be at. And most of the time, as I navigate from one website to the next, I see those mistakes consistently. So let's talk about each of those mistakes and let's see what you can do about them. The very first mistake is having generic copy on the website. You cannot imagine how often I look at a website and the copy is written in such a generic manner that me as a visitor and every one of your visitors are coming to the website feel very blush when we read that copy. Is that even a word? I guess it is. You can always tell when copy is written by a marketer. There is a lot of we, we, we in. It uses generic terms and it's just not copy that resonates with visitors. And it is a sure way for your conversion rate to drop and for you to tell every visitor who's coming to your website that, well, yeah, we are a copy of our competitors. There's nothing unique about us. Your personality, your website voice does not come through. Now I've recorded a video and we'll leave a link to it in the comments that shows you some e commerce websites that do really well when it comes to messaging. Now here's a funny thing that you want to keep in mind. E commerce sites have a really good way to communicate their message to their visitors. SaaS websites, it's a little bit more challenging to communicate your messaging and who you are through your copy. Yet most SaaS companies have figured out the importance of copy. Most ecommerce websites are just absolutely lazy and they don't pay close attention to copy. And as a result of that, we end up with lots of ecommerce websites with generic copy that does not resonate with visitors. Again, if you want to see good copy on some e commerce websites, click on the link that we will have in the description for you. So that's the very first mistake. Mistake number two, simple things that are not too simple to do on your website. What do I mean by that? You expect every visitor who comes to your website to be able to do certain tasks and those certain tasks should be really easy to do. Sometimes they are not too simple. Sometimes some designer, some developer got a little too smart for their own good and you end up with things that are just absolutely difficult to do. I go to an e commerce website, I'm looking to buy a rug from the website. Guess what? One of the very first considerations that I want to look at is I want to look at the size of the rug. Because I have a specific room where I'm going to be using this rug. So I'm going to be looking at probably a size and then I'm going to be looking at color, then I'm going to be looking material. You cannot imagine how difficult it is to do that on some of the top retailers that sell rugs around the U.S. they just complicate something that is supposed to be really easy. Now here is a pro tip for you. If you think that your visitors should be able to perform a certain task really easily on your website, what you want to do is you want to go and find somebody who is maybe on the older side, maybe somebody who's in their 60s, 65, maybe 70, they're a little familiar with the Internet, so they know how to navigate. Give them your website and ask them to complete that task on your website. If it's buying a rug, hey, why don't you go ahead? You know, you have this room, you have your living room, and you want to buy a rug for your room. Why don't you go ahead and do that on our website and watch them watch what they do on your website, because this is supposed to be a simple task. And if somebody who is 65 or 70, not to offend anybody, is able to perform that task, then all of your other visitors should be able to perform it. Watch them and watch where they struggle and go ahead and fix those issues. Number three, not thinking about your customers. And it sort of relates to the very first item. But I will give you an example from North Face. North Face sells jackets. They sell about 12 different types of jackets. It's a very simple website, but they didn't think about their customers. The focus on the website is like, well, here's the jacket, here's the material in it when I'm buying a jacket. Since I live in Chicago, guess the biggest concern that I have is how warm is this jacket going to be for me when it's really cold in Chicago and how well would it fit me? Those are the two concerns that I have. Unfortunately for North Face, they did not address the first concern. How warm is a jacket? You know, I have to go click on every jacket, look at it. And some jackets have almost a warmth parameter that tells you how warm it is. But I actually have to click and I have to open multiple pages and I start comparing those different products and where that warmth barometer is on their side is not consistent. And then I'm left with more confusion. What was supposed to be something very simple, it is no longer simple. On their site. They did not think about their customers. So think about your customer, think about that visitor who is coming to your website and think about what are the concerns that they have. How do I make sure that I'm addressing those concerns right away? I'm doing a review a little later with a company that sells vacation packages in Orlando and they sent me their landing page and they said, hey, just prior to jumping on the call, do you mind just taking a look at our page? And I'm like, sure, I'll take a look at the page. I jump on the page and there are so many different offers. It's $100 off. No, it's $75. Oh, no. We're selling you this $75 package for three days. After just spending 30 seconds on the page, I got really frustrated and they did not really address the main concerns that I have. How much does the package cost? What's included in the package? It is there somewhere on the page, but I had to dig for it and I left frustrated and I decided, you know what? This is not for me. And that's probably the reason they are struggling with converting more of their visitors into actual customers or prospects, whatever it is that they are trying to do. Those three mistakes that most websites suffer from, if you're able to fix them, I can guarantee you that you'll have an uplift in conversion rates. There you go. That's the first question uninterrupted from Simba. What do you think? Simba?

Yeah, that was a good one. But I have, like, something to ask you. When you said, like, you have to think about the concerns of the visitors, concerns of the customers. I know that everyone who listens to this podcast is super smart. They know what it means. But just in case, like, maybe there's someone who's learning. How do you figure out the concerns of the visitors? Are there, like, any other ways that you can, other things that you can do to try and find out?

There's two different ways that you can figure out the biggest concerns for your customers, and they all come through talking to your customers. One is by doing actual customer interviews, One on one customer interviews. And we love to do those. Whenever we're doing conversion optimization or experimentation for a website, the first month usually involves having lots and lots of conversations, lengthy conversations, 45 minutes, 15 minutes, sometimes an hour, with people who actually ordered an item, with people who actually converted on the item. Now when we're having those conversations, we're not asking them, hey, how was your experience with the item? No, we're starting the conversation by saying, hey, what was going on in your life when you decided to buy this item? Well, you know, XYZ Events happened. Okay, so that's the trigger event. That's when they decided to go ahead and buy. But then you want to go backwards. So when was the first time you recognized that you actually wanted to buy this item? Oh, well, I've been thinking about buying it for a couple months. So there is a first event and then there's a trigger event. Two uniquely different events. Okay, after that first event happened, who did you talk to? What were the concerns? What are the options that you've considered? Those are questions that you ask and you listen carefully to the concerns that people had and then you address those on your website. So that is one way. Another way is actually through on site polls, surveys, customer chat logs, support logs. There is a treasure of answers around customers concerns there. Spend some time, pull all of these logs together and do some analysis. What are the most common questions that you are getting from people and how do I actually address those in my website copy? Now let me give you a different example. Let's say like us, we are a marketing agency. We have a sales team and the sales team is always jumping on calls. I think our sales guys are having three, four conversations almost every day with different companies. I can listen to those sales conversations and I can listen to the questions that people are asking during those sales conversations. And I'm like, oh, people are always concerned around this. Then it's a burden on me as somebody who runs a business to say these are the concerns that people have. What do we do in order for us to address them? For example, an agency, people are always concerned, are you going to deliver or you're not going to deliver? So you can address that in multiple ways. You can guarantee the results of your service. We wouldn't do that because we don't control everything. Maybe we don't lock in people for long term contracts. Maybe we can address that through showing them different results that we've achieved. But those are different ways that I can address a concern that I've heard consistently on a sales call. So it starts by listening to the customer and then figuring out, okay, well how do we address those concerns? And it's fascinating to me going back to the agency side, one of the companies, one of my friends runs another CRO agency and one of the things that he does is he offers a guarantee. He's like, hey, if we don't really increase your conversions by 25% in six months, we are going to work for two additional months for free and you don't pay. I thought to myself, I'm like, oh, this is absolutely great. You know, I like that approach. I think it elevates some of the concerns that people have. That was my thought as an agency owner. Another company that can peace with us. They say, you know what? We guarantee our results. You read the fine print. What they tell you is we're going to lock you in for a contract for six months and if we don't achieve any test without any lift, then we'll refund your money. Think about this. So they'll run 24 experiments and if none of those 24 experiments achieves any result, then they'll give you their money back. And then the solution that I came up with where I said, you know what we're going to do either four months contract or a month to month contract. Those are all options that are addressing the same concerns that potential clients have. I went and I talked to a whole bunch of e commerce companies and I said, hey, between those three options, six months and you get two months for free, shorter term contract or hey, we're going to refund your money if none of our experiments that we launch in six months generate an actual lift. Which one do you think e commerce companies actually like the most between those three different options? Simba?

I think the two month guarantee or the guarantee won the first one where they work for two. Two months. Yeah.

None of the e commerce companies took us up that they're like no, like you know, it's like if they didn't achieve any results in six months, why do we want to keep like, you know, being stuck in that relationship? My mind was saying, hey, two months for free, you're getting a good deal. The E commerce company owner is saying like, you know, in six months if you haven't achieved any results for me, I don't want you to continue working. I'm done. Well, how about six months or we'll refund all of your money. They're like, no, the devil is in the details. If you run 24 experiments and none of them are successful, then we've made the wrong decision altogether. You know, when you run 24 experiments, at least two, three and if you really know what you're doing, probably 10 of them will achieve results. But we might not like working with you. Most e commerce operators I talk to like the option of shorter term contracts. They're like, hey, show us the work. Maybe you achieve results, maybe you don't achieve results. But we will be able to judge whether we want to continue working with you or not. So it's fascinating how from my side as somebody who's selling a service, I thought something will work really well versus what? The people who are actually the customers, what they're saying of what matters to them.

Yeah, that's a good one. Cool. Suppose, like, I'm someone who's also listening to this podcast. I hear your advice on doing customer interviews and launching polls, listening to sales calls. Then I come up, like, maybe with a list of about 60 or maybe 40 conversion issues. How then do I prioritize those? What's the next step? Should I just go in and launch a test?

One of the most sure ways to fail in experimentation. If you just merely go in and start making fixes or even experimenting, by the way, you have to prioritize them. Now, the only exception to that, the only exception is if you have unlimited time and budgets. If you are in that unique island away from the rest of humanity. Yeah, just have at it. Most of us are not in that boat. Correct. So what I'd rather do is actually prioritize. And when it comes to prioritization, there are many different frameworks out there. So there's the ICE framework that's been around for a while and uses three different elements to prioritize. It's too simplistic. CXL has a framework. INVESP has a framework. The biggest thing for me when I evaluate you, choose a framework and stick with it. And when it comes to choosing a framework, the thing that matters the most is how subjective the framework is. What does that mean? If I take the framework and I give it to three different people and I give them a list of 100 items and I tell them, use the framework, prioritize those items. For me, the framework that is most objective, you'll end up with very similar prioritization. It's not going to match 100%, but we want to be close enough where you know most of the prioritization from person one, person two, person three are matching. I don't want item number one on the list of the first person to be item number 100 on the list of the second person. We have a problem there. That's the reason when you're choosing a framework, avoid subjectivity. So that's number one. Number two, if you peel the onion when it comes to those frameworks, really what it comes down to what they are trying to accomplish is let's figure out the things that have the most impact on our bottom line and that will require the least amount of effort. Now, this is nice in theory, but how do you actually measure those items? How Do I know that an item, a problem that I've identified on my website will have the most impact on my bottom line? That's not easy to uncover. Correct. When it comes to invesp, the way we evaluate that is based on the type of change that we're expecting. The type of test are we changing, making a small tweak, or is it really more fundamental? How much traffic is the page getting? How further down the funnel this page is? The further down the funnel you are, the more impact you'll have on conversion rates. So making a fix, for example, on the About Us page is a lot different than making a fix on the cart page or during the checkout. You can imagine that making a fix in the checkout will have more impact on your bottom line compared to fixing the About Us page. Then, when it comes to the level of effort, that's a conversation that you need to be having with your technical team and with your marketing team. Hey, we have this problem. We can fix it in 2, 3, 4 different possible ways. What is the level of effort that is involved in making this fix and running this experiment? Some of your fixes and things that you think of, it's like, oh, this will help us improve conversion rates. Some of those will be like, hey, your technical team will come back and say, this will take us about a couple of months to implement. However, the other solution that you've suggested might take us a day or two to implement. So guess what? We're probably going to start with solution number two. The a day or two, not the two months. Using a framework will allow you to prioritize those items. Now, one mistake that I see many companies fall into, you start with a list of 100 items, you prioritize it. You run an experiment, the experiment informs you has results. We either have a winner, we might not have a winner. We might. At the end of the experiment, you need to ask yourself a question. What do we do next? We've just ran an AB experiment. Do I jump to experiment number two? No, you don't. You look at that first experiment and you ask yourselves like, okay, what did we learn? Do we run another version of this test? Do we iterate? And by coming up with this other idea, you want to throw it again to that list and reprioritize again. You're constantly reprioritizing. So that initial conversion roadmap, if I may use that word, because that's kind of the term that we use for it is a living document. It is constantly getting updated based on the results. And the information that we are getting from our testing program.

Okay, now that you have prioritized, you know which test to launch first, which test to launch second, and you have like a roadmap. Right. So are there like any key metrics that you should look for? Are there like any universal key metrics that you can use to measure the success of an experimentation program?

Yeah. So there is the success of an experiment versus the success of experimentation. Let's talk about the experiment because that's easier to measure a lot different than judging the success of an experimentation program. A particular experiment usually will have several metrics that you are tracking. There's a primary metric and then there's secondary metrics. Primary metric. Every experiment that we launch, we're always looking at the overall conversion rate for the site. We're making a change to the product pages, we're making a change to the CART page. We're making a change to the checkout. Looking at the impact of that change on the overall conversion rates. Is it positive, Is it negative? That's how I determine. Now, in addition to that, I'm also looking at other metrics. Revenue per visitor and aov, two other metrics that I'm evaluating at an experiment level. And I'm careful when I evaluate those metrics because at one hand an experiment and the conversion rate is a binary event. It's either a yes or a no. So I can really judge whether a particular variation had actually helped me improve conversion rates or not. The fact that AOV or RPV average order value or revenue per visitor has gone up or down for a particular variation is not how I decide whether a variation won an experiment or not. However, it does inform my decision. So we need to make that distinction. So that's number two. Number three, I also look at the secondary metrics. So on a pdp, I want to look at that clicks on the add to cart. I want to look at the CART page views. I want to look at how many people are starting the checkout. Those metrics help me judge whether an experiment is successful or not. Let's talk about the experimentation program. I've been running experiments for six months. I've been running experiments for a year. How do I know whether I'm doing well or not? I look at so many different metrics when it comes to that. I look at the site conversion rate, I look at the rpv, I look at the aov, I look at the traffic mix. Because really, at this point, I am evaluating where the site is when it comes to marketing. Experimentation is a marketing activity. Are we doing better? Are we doing worse? How does that relate to the whole market? How does that relate to the economy in general? I was at a conference recently and it's a conference attended by about 250, 200 different E commerce companies. Very small gathering and it's fascinating to look at some of the metrics away from experimentation. What we are seeing revenue in Q1 2023 compared to Q1 2022. That comparison was fascinating. There are some sectors that are struggling. Furniture is reporting 10 to 12%. They're 10 to 12% down year over year. Apparel, it really varies either steady, some companies are doing better. So this has nothing to do with those sites and what they're doing. This is across many, many sides in particular industries. The economy overall and how concerned people are around recession is impacting the business of these companies. So I'm doing a full evaluation to say are we heading in the right direction or are there concerns that we have? I'm fully aware of those as I judge the success of an experimentation program.

So I want to take you back to the key metrics for an experiment. Right. You mentioned rrpv. You mentioned like average order value. Are there like some of the. Are there like any vanity metrics that people can measure or have been measuring or some of the mistakes in measuring, in choosing metrics that you have seen?

Yeah, I've seen experiments where people measure 20 to 25 different metrics. And I always laugh whenever I see something like that because that's analysis paralysis. I'm always fascinated by that. And I'm like, guys, it's nice your A B testing software allows you to track all of that. But are you just measuring it just for the sake of measuring it? You're measuring just because you can. Because that's a horrible way. You need to pick your metrics really carefully. That's number one. Don't go 20, 25 metrics. I don't like to see more than four or five metrics per experiment. Even at four or five metrics, I think sometimes people struggle. You go more than that, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. That's number one. Number two, choose metrics that are meaningful, where they are discrete events. Did people click on a button? Did people visit a page? The answer to that is either yes or no. Sometimes people like to measure continuous metrics such as bounce rate, exit rates, time on page. Yeah, nice. But vanity metrics, and really the accuracy of some of those metrics varies from one tool to the next. And I don't think at the end you're making a decision based on those tools. They're nice to have, but we're not making a decision based on those. I think our friends and this article, oh, gosh, must have been now 10 years old. But the guys. Chris Goward at Wider Funnel. I'd written an article saying that bounce rate is a horrible metric to judge the success of an experiment on. And I agree with him. Oh, the bounce rate for this variation is 59% and the bounce rate for this variation is, you know, 57%. Like really? But bounce rate is really impacted by the quality of the visitors that are coming to the page. It is so complicated. And bounce rate is reported this way in your A B testing software, but it's reported a little differently in your analytics. Yeah, it's the kind of worms that we don't want to open altogether.

So are there like, any risks or ethical concerns when it comes to E commerce experimentation?

Oh, man, there are always ethical concerns when it comes to any type of marketing. There's always data concerns. And this is not particular to CRO. I'll talk about just marketing concerns in general data and how much privacy concerns around CRO. And it's fascinating. Europe is way ahead of us when it comes to privacy and whatnot. And one of the decisions that we've made in figpi, maybe it's to our detriment, but it's a decision that we stuck with. We have a ton of companies that use FIGPI for experimentation, for heat maps, for session recording in Europe. The laws in Europe are very strict. And we said, you know what, we can have very strict standards in Europe and we can relax the standards in the U.S. and we said, you know what, it doesn't make sense. We like privacy. We like that we're not storing user information, that everything is getting masked. It really saves us from a lot of headache in Europe. I mean, that's the law in Europe. But at the same time, in the US we don't need potential lawsuits. So let's just apply the same rules. Not everybody plays by the same rules. I think if you want to look down the road, everybody's heading in that direction. Okay, so the US Is about maybe five, seven, ten years behind, but we're going to get there. And that's just the reality that everybody's going to come to. That's number one. Number two, there's what I call black hats Yarrow. I absolutely hate it. But it's still there. And it's fascinating to me because Some companies are still trying to trick people into converting. You can trick me into converting once, but you're not going to build a relationship with me through tricking me. And if it's a one time order, all power to you. You got an order from me. But guess what, I can always call my credit card, I can always cancel the order. I can always leave you a bad review. You're not going to succeed by tricking people into conversions and people see through that. Unless you are going through a very young segment of the market or a very old segment of the market. Not a way to do business. And yes, it will help you in the short term, gets more conversions, but I think it backfires in the long term. I'll give an example from a company that we worked with and this was fascinating because back in 2000 we started working with them back in 2010. Let's not give specifics, but they use this counter. Oh, we've given you a discount and it's going to run out after 10 minutes and you need to act right now. 2010, this counter worked really wonders. People were rushing and placing the order. Move forward to 2023. It actually backfires. People see through that. Oh, let me refresh the page. Oh, I'm going to come back to the page in like two days. Oh, you still have the offer and your counter is still counting. Not a good way to do business. Another company, they're making most of their money, they're selling cheaper products, but guess what, they overcharge you when it comes to shipping and handling. They're making their money in shipping and handling. We had the lengthy debate with them, like not a good way to do business. And it's not one of those items that people order once and they're gone. They probably going to order multiple times. You're not going to trick people into business. But that I think is a business philosophy where CRO comes and amplifies it on the website and I think at the end it backfires.

I know that you touched on it when you spoke about customer interviews, but we have a question about what role does qualitative research play in E commerce experimentation?

Whenever you're trying to optimize an E commerce website, there are what I call the quick wins, the low hanging fruits. Those are the fixes that you make quickly and you get the website. You probably give the website a pump anywhere, 10, 15, 20%. It depends on the website and how horrible the website is. So that's almost like taking a website and saying, okay, I'm going to put you in an ICU intensive care unit and I'm going to now help you. It's like, okay, you're done. After I made all these quick fixes, you're still not out of the hospital. Now I'm going to take you to just a regular ward and you're sitting there. I still need to give you vitamins. I still need to monitor the website and that's where customer research is very critical. Customer research, I think is the ace in the hole that an e commerce website can use to actually stand out from the competition. When it comes to messaging, when it comes to what features do we add on the website. When it comes to addressing fears, uncertainties and doubts that people have, customer research helps you unlock all of those. It's the secret weapon, in all honesty, in most of what we do when it comes to our client engagements, those one on one customer interviews that we conduct and then taking the insights from those customer interviews and saying, okay, here is the next step. Here are the concerns that people have. Here is when they had the first thought about the problem. Here is what triggered them to actually buy. Not only are we making fixes to the website, but guess what? That work impacts how we are doing email. That work impacts how we do paid advertising, whether on Google or on social platforms. It's an engine and the minute you get the hang of it, you cannot walk away from it. You're like, oh, so here is exactly what I need to be working on next. Here's what people are asking for and here's how I'm going to address it on my site.

Yep, that's a good one. I think those are the questions that we had for today. Unless maybe you have something to share.

No, I think, man, like we had a ton of questions, but I like how you made it flow, by the way. 35 minutes, I expect it to take a little longer, but it flew just really nicely.

Yeah, I'm still learning.

Hey, all of us are learning. Awesome, Simba. Well, thank you everybody for listening Again, like share. And Simba, I know you have a soccer match to go watch. You know, we'll talk about it, I'm sure, next week in our next Yaro live hour.

Until next time, the last game of the season.

Oh, yeah, yeah. But I mean today is critical because if you guys just equalize and we're done. Have a good rest of the week.

Sure. Bye.