#6 – 5 Wrong CRO Assumptions, Structure Of Remote CRO Team, CRO As A Competitive Advantage, Conversion Deliverables

My name is Khalil Slade, and I love to talk about conversion rate optimization.

I'm Simba and I love asking questions about conversion optimization.

This is CRO Live Hour, a show all about a B testing, experimentation and conversion rate optimization.

Each episode, Khaled amazes me, answering some of the difficult CRO questions, dropping insights like, it's no big deal, while pretty.

Much every episode will take on a new set of conversion rate optimization questions that are not easy. We will talk strategies, we will talk process, and we will talk tactics. Simba will be bringing all the questions.

Oh, man, I bring tough questions like, do a B testing results fade over time? How do you go from low to high testing velocity? How do you measure the success of a conversion funnel? And how do you align your CRO program with a growth strategy? Yeah, Khalid, these are very, very tough questions.

Yes, they are, but we always answer them here. And if you love conversion optimization like we do, and certainly like Simba does, subscribe to the CRO Live Hour podcast today wherever you listen to your podcasts. Simba, how was the past few days?

Past few days have been a bit challenging. You know, like, when the quarter is starting, you have, like, so many things all over the place. So you'll be trying to maybe structure things and make sure that everything is not. Is, like, on the right path. So I think there's been. I've been so tied up again because we had, like, a couple of things that were supposed to be finished in the previous quarter, but we didn't. So I have been, like, reviewing all that stuff from the previous calling, just like, trying to finalize everything. But yeah, that's how busy I was. But if you want to know how busy I am, you can check on my. On my activity on LinkedIn. If you don't see me, like, posting as often, then that means I'm super busy. I don't have time to think.

I mean, the same with me, by the way. It's been so hectic. Now, on a positive note, people can't see this in, like, you know, in the studio or when I'm recording. But I judge how busy I am by the piles of papers that I have to go through. And at some point I had so many piles, I was just getting depressed looking at them. And I'm like, oh, I have to do this, I have to do that. But I'm glad to report that there was like, a couple piles, but one of them has like three, four papers. One of them has, like, you know, very. I'm like, okay, this Is this is good. Like, you know, I've caught up. And like you said, LinkedIn is a really good measurement of how busy I am. Because when I'm like, you know, I have more free time, so I'm focused on LinkedIn. When I just busy, I'm like, okay, sorry, LinkedIn. Although it's so critical to kind of jump on LinkedIn. How has it been managing a team, though?

It's my first time, like, managing a marketing team. So it's been. What can I say? What's the word that I'm looking for? It's been good. I'm enjoying it. And I can see that especially, like, coming after this, after the holiday, after this, like, short vacation we had, people are motivated and yeah, it's good.

You sort of answered, but you don't really answer. You're, like, refusing to give details, by the way. And that's kind of a typical symbol. I'm like, I heard your answer, but it really. What was the most challenging part of managing a team?

The most challenging part of managing a team is like, our team is made up of different people with different skill sets. You know, like, everyone is a specialist in a certain thing. What happened is in one day, I have to switch my head so many times. You know, like, maybe someone reaches out to me asking me about this, something to do with marketing. And then in the next hour or two hours or three hours, someone reaches out with a different. With a completely different topic. I also have to switch my mind again and try to think, oh, okay, if we do it this way, this way. And then, like, maybe we just talk about it. So, yeah, that's like, the most challenging part because when I used to, when I wasn't, like, really managing anyone, I would know, like, the certain roles, certain stuff that I'm doing and get focused on them, like, throughout the whole day. So. But it's been interesting. I can't complain because I'm still also learning a lot as the team is also learning. So it's enjoyable.

Yes, it's interesting to me, managing a team, because, I mean, that's the leverage that you get where you're having other people do combine more work so you're able to produce more and you're kind of steering the ship, hopefully in the right direction. But getting people with different personalities to work, different attitudes to work together, and then knowing when to jump in and give guidance and when to let the person do their own thing, it's always an interesting, interesting challenge. One of the things I've spent this week on I've spent almost like, you know, 10, 15 hours on is working with our CRO team and IAT spends, IAD spends like, you know, seven, eight hours with them every day going through different, like, you know, projects and ideas and, you know, analysis and whatnot. But the piece that I spent with them was I started looking at the account management piece, trying to make sure that we're on the same page. How do you manage an account? How do you actually run a meeting? How do you have the discussions with the company that you're working with so made for? Interesting, interesting kind of point of view, kind of different people, different styles. Some people surprise you in a good way, some people surprise you in not so great way. So you know, but the goal is, and I think that has been a focus of invest as a fleet is more and more training. So we do, we do the weekly CR training which we stopped for the last couple weeks just because of the holidays, but we'll be back at it next week. But in addition to that, there's the one on one training which is even more powerful to get one on one training, whether it's with Ayat or with me. So that's interesting, my friend. It's interesting, yeah.

So you have like account managers and project managers. What's the difference between the two? Like within a CRO team or within the CRO company?

So we don't officially have account managers as part of the CRO team and as a matter of fact, most CRO agencies don't even have project managers. So it's a role that invests had added. To me, the difference between a project manager and account manager is that the project manager is inwardly focused. We are committing to deliver an X number of experiments, X number of like, you know, deliverables to the company that we're working with. This means that there are several people have to work together, from the CRO to the design to the Q to the development to the QA to the analytics. Everybody coming together to be able to deliver whatever we promise the client to deliver. The product manager is making sure that we're running smoothly, on time, on budget. Account manager is outwardly focused. So the account manager is really looking at the clients, maintaining that relationship with the company that we're working with, making sure that they're happy, doing whatever needs to be done to keep them happy. And while we have a dedicated project manager position, we don't have the account manager position. So I expect our account, our CROs and our project managers to work together as account managers. So the PM and the CRO are working together, building a profile for the company that we're working with. What do they like, what do they hate? What are their interests, what are their personal goals and what are their business goals and how can we help them achieve those goals? Every quarter, quarter after quarter. So some of it's really like, you know, as I'm doing, as I'm training CROs, some of it is, how do you build that or in that personal relationship with the company that you're working with? Because that's, that's very critical. But some of it also is as you're presenting insights and data analysis and new experiment ideas, how do you present those in a meaningful way where somebody who's listening to you and sitting with you for half an hour or an hour a week, they're getting the most value out of that meeting that we're doing with them. So it's a combination between account management and conversion management and running meetings in the right way, presenting insights in the right way.

Yes, I had to ask you about that one, even though it's not like part of the main questions that we are today, always.

So what questions do we have today?

Yeah, today we have four questions. I'm not sure how easy they are, but I'm sure they are easy to you and difficult to me.

So, hey, let's see. I mean, last time, it's funny because last time we had an influx of people kind of like, you know, join our CR Live hour, but the questions were so hard, you know, and I think I can, I could have explained the questions last time if I have a whiteboard, but trying to explain it kind of in a, in a video conference or a video interview, it is so challenging talking about machine learning and artificial intelligence and the use of machine learning. And I was like, oh, no, I'm dying here, trying to explain all of that. So let's see your questions this time.

Yeah, sure. So the first question for today is, what are the five wrong assumptions that people have about CRO?

What are the five wrong assumptions and why? Why five? Why not seven?

Why not three?

I'm not sure. No, no, no. I'm trying to simplify my life. You make it, you're making it harder. Let's talk about some of the wrong assumptions that people have about CRO. And some of those assumptions are very tactical and some of them are very strategic at a very high level. I think one of the biggest wrong assumptions that I have is thinking that CRO is going to be the magic bullet, is going to be the magic wand that's going to solve all of the business problems. And this is something that I look for whenever a company, a CEO, a VP of marketing, reach out, reaches out to us. I'm always probing and trying to understand where their business is. Every time I hear from somebody that their business is about to go bankrupt, things are absolutely horrendous. And they're coming to conversion optimization thinking that, oh my God, this is the one thing that is going to save my company and save my business. I walk away from them and I tell them, listen, conversion optimization is an element of your marketing mix. It's a critical element. It doesn't make sense to do a whole lot of SEO. It doesn't make sense to do a whole lot of paid campaigns if you're driving a lot of eyeballs, a lot of visitors to your different assets, to your campaigns, to your website, your landing pages. And then people are not converting. So conversion optimization is important for conversion optimization to play a role. But don't give it a size that is larger than what it could. Don't imagine that any of those activities, whether CRO or SEO or ppc, is going to come in and it's going to just turn things inside out. Marketing is a flywheel. And we all know that flywheel is very slow to move. The minute it moves, it starts. It becomes a lot easier to continue moving it and to speed it up. But that initial push, that initial string that you have to put is very hard. So that's one assumption. Another assumption that I hear, which you see until now, after 15 or 16 years of doing conversion optimization, is that the small changes that had humongous impact on the bottom line. And unfortunately, you can blame lots of the old CROs for that mistake, and you can blame some people who don't even know and don't even understand conversion optimization for that. So somebody saying, well, you know, although it's a small change, it's a small change on the website, but it's a big change in the mind of the visitor. And I think it's so silly when people sometimes say this. So I look at an AB experiment, there's version A, the control, and I look at version B and I'm staring at version B and I'm like, I can't really tell the difference. I take my magnifying glass and I'm looking through and I say, I'm like, what's there? As well as the difference is a small thing. And I tell the person, you're making the assumption that your visitors Even if they're interested in is they're spending a lot of time dissecting every single word on your website and every little change. And in your mind, as an optimizer or as a business owner, as a part of the marketing team, you're thinking you're making a huge change. But in order for that change to resonate with people, guess what, they have to notice it first. And if they don't notice it, it doesn't matter how good it is, they don't notice it. So it's not going to impact your bottom line. Silly things like the color of a cta, like, you know, like small changes that people don't notice and like, you know, making those and assuming that's going to have a big change. Those are just, they have their place, but they're not going to have the huge impact that people, that people assume. Another wrong assumption, which again, for this one I'm going to blame the old timers for, is that you, you respond to everything by well, we should test this, we should test that and we should test everything. If you're going to be testing everything, you're going to run out of bandwidth. That's just the reality. You cannot afford to test everything. Now if you're a large company and you have hundreds of developers, you will get to that point. But if you're a small to medium sized company, you need to be very, very conscious about what you are testing. You need to have a centralized process to get all the different testing ideas, where did the insights for them come from? And then prioritize them and then run your experimentation as opposed to, oh yeah, we'll test this. Oh yeah, we should test that. Oh, we should test this. I hear some consultants sometimes say, like that's their response machine conferences. Yes, you should test this, you should test that. And I always warn companies if the response that the consultant tells you constantly, well, we should test this. This is a good idea, we should test it. This is a great idea, we should test it. I'm like, well, you probably shouldn't hire them and instead you should hire some developers and let those developers just write the AB experiments and let's get it over with. Another wrong assumption, maybe perhaps two wrong assumptions, but they're all kind of linked together. And we'll finish the five as you asked for is how much statistics do you need to know? So for this there are two extremes. There's one extreme view in the industry that you really understand. Statistics, statistics in and out. In order for you to run successful experimentation program And I think it's funny when people focus on statistics so much because statistics gives us a sense of control. And humans naturally, we're always looking to control things. Experimentation by its nature is giving up control to your visitors. Correct. You, you have some assumptions of a particular problem, you make a hypothesis, you create a design, but you hand the control to your website visitors to judge the quality of that experiment. While handing control over is a very uncomfortable experience to humans. So what do we do? Well, the only thing that we can control is statistics. So people sometimes spend way, absolutely way too much time on statistics. You would feel that you need a PhD program, PhD degree in order for you to run an experimentation program, which I think is very silly. You do need to understand statistics, but you don't have to have a PhD degree in order for you to run a CRO program. And this comes from somebody who is a computer science major. This comes from somebody who has a PhD, somebody who has PhDs in statistics working with us. This comes from somebody who basically hires data analysts and data scientists. But I know the place that they play. The other extreme and the other five wrong assumption is that we don't really need to understand statistics at all. And people start making some rather laughable mistakes. And you look at them and it's like, dude, basic statistics. I mean, I understand you don't have to have a PhD in statistics to run a CRO program, but you really need to understand probably about four or five hours worth of statistics if you are going to run conversion optimization, you really need to understand some of those concepts. You don't have to know all the formulas on how to calculate the sample size. There's enough sample size calculators out there, but you should be able to understand the different inputs and should be able to put a meaningful explanation for these inputs. So when somebody asks you, you understand you should be able to read the data, make sure that the data is not polluted when you are running, running experimentation. So that other extreme is very dangerous. So between those two extremes, the I need the PhD in statistics. Oh, I don't really even need statistics to run CRO. Those are the last two assumptions. Wrong assumptions about conversion optimization that we'll finish with.

Okay, okay. Nice, nice. The first assumption you say like CRO is not like a magic bullet that can solve all your business problems. And I think it makes sense because like some people might be having an SEO problem and that can be solved through CRO. Right? But what do you have to say about people who say that they use CRO? To grow their business. Like their business was nearly about to die. But CRO, or maybe like they used to do that, now they say experimentation help them to scale their, their business.

Yeah, I mean, I highly doubt that one thing by itself is going to grow your business. I'm going to focus on CRO and I'm not going to pay any attention to SEO, I'm not going to pay any attention to branding, I'm not going to pay any attention to, to ppc. Well, CRO can't really help you if you're not driving visitors to your website. So although you're saying that you're focused on CRO, I am sure that you have things in place to drive visitors to the website and that those things are consistent. Because if a traffic drops and you go from 200,000 visitors to 1,000 visitors, no CRO is going to save you. No CRO effort, no CRO team is going to save you. So ultimately, to me, the secret to success in marketing is about attracting people to your campaigns, to your site, your platform, to your landing pages. Converting those people. Correct. So attract, convert and then retain. That's the other piece. Right? You do those three things, you succeed, you say that's one of those things is going to take precedent over the others. And I'm not going to pay attention to the other two. No, it's kind of a, I think of it as a three legged stool. You need those three legs to sit on in order for you to sit and feel very stable. You focus on one guess what, the stable, the stool becomes very wobbly and you're gonna fall. Having said that, we've worked with companies, I recall one company, perhaps one of our oldest clients since 2010, 2011, when they first came to us, it was a two man operation. And I've seen them right now their CRO team is close to 30, 40 people. So it's very large. And they continue to be, by the way, working with envesp on and off, which is fascinating to me. But the challenges that they used to bring us back in 2010, 2011 are a lot different than the challenges that we are dealing with in 2022. The questions are a lot more complicated, a lot more sophisticated. And CRO did help them grow their business. Now at the same time, they do have a team that is focused on paid, paid media and they bring a lot of traffic. So although a good chunk of their investment is in CRO, it's not 100% of their investments. Perhaps it's 50, 60, 70% of their investments.

And as you're explaining, like the second wrong assumption that people have about CRO, I was kind of like thinking about my previous LinkedIn post that I made because what you just said actually goes against what I posted.

Oh, I have to see what you said. What did you say in the post?

Yeah, I said, I have learned so many things about experimentation, but one of the greatest lessons I've learned is it's often the tiny changes that have a big impact. I used to assume that the bigger the experiment, the larger the impact it will have, but things don't always work that way. And you say that small changes don't always result in a big impact.

Let's put it this way. So, yeah, no, this is good, actually. I love this discussion. So let me put it to you this way. A small change can have a big impact. But the very first rule, people need to notice it. A small change that people don't notice is not going to have an impact. People were testing something and I was looking at an experiment, and it's a mobile page, and it's a rather lengthy mobile page for a pdp. And it's like, we made a change here. I'm like, okay, so I'm scrolling, trying to compare two different mobile pages. And I couldn't tell. I got frustrated and I'm like, dude. So they're like, well, you know, this section, if you scroll down, like, you know, after like multiple scrolls, I'm like, you see this section, we redesign it completely. And what I told them is like, well, hold on, let's go back to the fundamentals. Let's look at heat map data. How many, what is the percentage of people that are scrolling down all the way down to this section of the page? And it was about 23%. So fundamentally, they were telling me 77% of the people did not see the page. And because it was so down on the page, also the assumption is that people will, you know, will start interacting with them, will notice it. So I told them right away, although this page is getting a ton of traffic, you just. Due to the section that you've picked, people are not going to notice it. 77% of the people did not notice it. Then I wanted to look at something else, also looking at heat maps, which is mass movement on the section, just to see how much interactivity that section has. And again, there was no interaction. And I'm like, guys, people are not noticing that section. So it was not only a small change, but it was a change in a section that people did not Notice now you can still make a small change, but in an area that's very clear and people can notice it. Now, it depends on the type of change that you are making. I know some CROs, some amazing CROs who think like, hey, small changes sometimes will have an impact, but again, they need to be noticeable. But I would agree with something that you said. Some of our biggest experiments, some of the biggest experiments that we've done in 2021, 2020, I mean, you're talking about like, you know, almost a month and a half of coding to develop an experiment. A month and a half, 250 hours to do an experiment as a flopping completely. And it was just painful to look at, like, oh my God. And by the way, a fundamental assumption in experimentation is that you really should not be doing humongous experiments like that. The whole point is where every experiment that we're introducing is an mvp, it's like a small version and then you get insights from people. Are they interested in it? Are they not interested? If they're interested, then we can go back and iterate. But every once in a while you get stuck in one of those areas where everybody's just gung ho. We're going to implement this and it's going to be huge. And again, people, visitors who have control, they come back and they tell you, well, we hate this dude. We love the old design. It's very humbling. When you go through that exercise, by the way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you clarified it. That makes a lot of sense. Okay, so for the next question that we have is how do you build a remote CRO team and what does the structure of the team team look like?

For a long time I used to say that CRO is a team sport, which means I was not a big fan of remote CRO teams. I just didn't see it work. Covid has its way of making us change our mind. Now, mind you, we've always been mostly a remote company, but the CRO teams. And for me, a CRO team is a CRO, the designer, the developer. Most of the time they were in the same place and they at least met physically, rather regularly, maybe once or twice a week. Covid changed that. So it presented an opportunity to be able to hire correct the best talent that you can find anywhere in the world and allow them to travel anywhere in the world. But it presented, now a new challenge is, okay, so how do you get the team to work together? So a core component is hiring the right people. And hiring the right people is different from One company to the next, the right people for invesp and how invesp does projects probably a lot different than the right people for a 3M or an eBay. So that's fundamental that you need to understand. Okay, what skill sets do I need to bring? How do I make sure that my team is able to work together? So you hire the right people, you hire for the right roles. So for us, again, the roles are the CRO, they are the analyst, the person who is going to drive the project. They identify conversion opportunities, they identify usability issues, they identify new revenue streams for a company that we're working with. They come up with the hypothesis, then the designer takes that hypothesis, creates the design, the developer handles the implementation of the experiment, and then after that there's a quality control person and then the launch. So making sure that you have those roles, sometimes people think to themselves, well, you know, a single person is going to fulfill all these roles. I am yet to find that uber CRO that is able to do all these roles. You might have a CRO who's a good designer, that is very possible. But a CRO who's a good designer and a good developer, a very difficult one. Used to be a developer. Most developers are just not good designers. We think we are, but if we're honest with ourselves, we don't. Design and development are just two different creatures, two different sides of the, of the brain. And then after you have the right team members, now it's about the processes. So for us, this optimization pod handles typically anywhere between three, four different companies that we're working with. They're meeting regularly, they meet two, three times a day. They're discussing the different problems. They, although they are remote, they work synchronously most of the time. The asynchronous work in CRO doesn't work. You want to bounce ideas off of your teammates and at the same time, you want to have enough time to walk away, sit and think. So sometimes they'll start the morning with a meeting. Everybody goes away for about two, three hours, then there's another meeting to discuss. And when they're discussing, they're trying to bring a whole bunch of issues and problems together as opposed to, well, let me, let's meet for 15 minutes, let's meet for 5 minutes, let's meet. Because then that's death by a thousand meetings. You want to avoid that. I'd rather have one or two meetings a day where I'm discussing different issues and having a discussion with everybody and just kind of moving on. Moving on from there. That's the approach that we're following right now. Seems to be working for the most part, I can tell you for sure, by the way we're making it work. It is not as good as having everybody in the same location. That's just the reality. But it's also a tax that we pay for the ability to hire people in different locations of the world. So you give up something, you gain something, you gain something else. It's funny because one of our CROs, we hired her, she was in Slovakia and now she's in Spain, and she seems to be also. She's all over Europe. Every time I talk to her, I'm like, hey, where are you nowadays? So she's in Spain, and she seems to like Spain quite a bit. So she's settling there for a while. So, you know, you want to give people that. That freedom to some extent.

So the third question is, can you use CRO as a competitive advantage?

Can you use CRO as a competitive advantage? Yes, CRO can be a competitive advantage. It can be a huge competitive advantage because ultimately, people's expectation, people who are buying from you, your potential customers, are increasing day after day. And what most sites do is copy each other. So the experience that's on site A is available on site B is available on site C. If you're able to give people that comfort of, okay, here's the common patterns that everybody follows. But you need to sprinkle a little bit of magic, a little bit better usability, a little bit of better persuasion. People are surprised, people smile and people say, oh, wow, I like this. You stand out. Now, you can stand out in so many different ways, different from one brand to the next. Correct. But conversion optimization ultimately is about providing a better user experience. You provide better user experience. Guess what happens? Your conversion rate increases. Your conversion conversion rate increases. You're generating more revenue. And all of this happens within the context of your brand and your positioning and what you need to do. There are instances where the brand is very transactional. I want to do this very quickly. I want to move on. I don't want to really think about this. Sometimes the brand is very intentional. I want somebody who's coming to my website to spend a lot of time investing and reading and depends on the material. Correct. On what people are buying and selling from you. So which. What is the right brand for you based on your visitors, based on your markets? That can be very powerful and that using CRO with the right branding can be very powerful to establish yourself in the marketplace. Let's take one more question. Let's take one more question and then finish wrap the CRO of live hour today. What do you think?

Yeah, sure. Yeah, that's the last question that I have.

Oh, okay. So we. Anyways, we have one more question. Last question. Okay.

Okay, this is the question. Let me read it as it is.

I like that. It's like, hey, I didn't write this question. Somebody sent it. So, okay, I'm just like trying to.

Shorten it, but it's in there. Let me just like read it as it is. Suppose I was to make use of the ship CRO process for my clients. What are the conversion deliverables? Deliverables. So I can tell my clients to expect for the. In the implementation section of the ship process. It's a bit long question. So I think she's. Yeah, about the conversion deliverable.

Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. What are the typical deliverables for a conversion project? I mean, a conversion process. Now, there's different phases. There are different phases in the conversion optimization and conversion optimization project. There are different phases. When you follow the ship process in the scrutinize phase, your goal is to identify usability issues, conversion problems, revenue opportunities, the ultimate final outputs from a ship process. The final output from a scrutinized phase is what we call a conversion roadmap. Here are the issues that we've identified and then we prioritize them so we know exactly what we are going to be working on a month from now, two months from now, three months from now, so on and so forth. Now, in order for me to produce that conversion roadmap, there's lots of activities that take place. There is expert review. There's analytics assessment there, looks analyzing heat maps there, looking at session recording, doing jobs to be done, interviews, doing competitive analysis. There's a lot of activities and you can effectively, for each one of those activities, produce a document that describes the input and the output and the insights. There are some companies who are really good as putting all these documents together, putting a PowerPoint presentation. We used to do that quite a bit back in 2015, 2016. But then what we've discovered is that most of the companies that hire us, they get those documents from us. They'll take an expert review document, which is about almost 120 pages, flip through the first few pages and then just put it aside. They'll take an analytics assessment document and again about 70 pages, flip through it and maybe read it, maybe not read it, put it aside two months later, no one's looking at those documents. They got them. They felt good when they got them. They're like, oh, these are really big documents. But there is nothing actionable as a result. The actions were in the conversion road. So what we've done since then, and every time a company comes to talk to us, I tell them we're not a PowerPoint company. I can do PowerPoints if you want me to, but you are better off if I spend my time creating that conversion roadmap, providing you with some insights, providing you with some analysis. But the conversion roadmap is what matters. So that's number one, number two for each one of those. Remember, the conversion roadmap is a prioritized list. So now what I'm doing is I'm taking each one of those elements and creating a test plan. So there's a developer brief that takes the item that we identified in the conversion roadmap describes. Here's the data insights that actually told us why we should test this. Here's the hypothesis, here are the designs, here's how it should be implemented. Again, that's another deliverable, and this is an internal deliverable that we have because our developers cannot actually implement the AB test without actually having that document. So that's another document that we produce. Now, the final and perhaps the most important document in a conversion optimization project is what we call a User Insights document. As you are testing, as you are running more and more experiments, you're making assumptions. You're finding that whether those assumptions are correct or not about your website visitors. So it's almost like, you know, you start by making assumptions about the visitors and your customers. As you do more testing, that picture becomes clearer and clearer. So that document helps guide any new design that you do, any new marketing campaigns that you do. And it's a very critical document because that is the essential document for any future experiments that you run, for any future marketing campaigns that you run. So you can, for each one of those phases, the scrutinize, the hypothesize, the implement the AB testing or the propagate, you can do a lot of documents. I prefer to focus on two or three main documents. I prefer to focus on creating my User Insights document, which is a living document that we continue adding to, as opposed to creating 60 different different PowerPoints that no one reads after the project runs.

Yep, that was insightful. So I think those are the questions that I have for you today.

Awesome. Awesome. Thank you everybody for watching us. And we are going to be back next week I think next week the plan is to have some of our marketing team join us. We've talked about this, but I don't want to surprise them today by telling them, hey, jump. So we'll tell them next week to be ready so we can jump on a call with us.