Website Design Mistakes Killing Conversions with FigPii Khalid Saleh

Join Ian Garlic as we uncover the hidden marketing stories that shape our world. Reveal the latest marketing tactics that will shape your future and the amazing people that grow organizations, movements and businesses. Learn to grow your business and shape the world around you. Welcome to the Garlic Marketing show with Ian Garlic. And yes, it's Ian, not Ian, that's marketing too.

All right, on this episode of the Garlic Marketing show, we are going to talk about making your website convert better using CRO Conversion Rate Optimization. I've got Khaled, the founder of FIGPI Software that will help you do all that. Khaled, say hi.

Hello. Hello. Nice, nice to be with you.

Thank you for being on. And we're going to talk about how website visitors have higher expectations. Why you need to get the website out faster and test more often. And you'll save a ton of money doing that. Where your website needs to be normal, where it needs to be. Crazy how he actually was involved in building Motorola's e commerce website for $50 million and ended up with only 10 orders. That wasn't his fault. Optimizing how they optimize ebay. How to see exactly where people are using your website. And the second most used page on the website, if you follow it, you know it's about us. How he optimizes it. How to ask visitors what's wrong with your website and improve it. Why you shouldn't give the impression that your business is bigger than it is. The number one most common mistake on website, the one thing all websites should be doing that, but they're not. And the types of video that is working for Khaled. All this on the Garlic Market show, but of course it's brought to you by Video Case Story. One of the best things you can do for your website everywhere is video case stories, not testimonials. We can help you collect, craft and deliver those. Get those on your website, get those on your YouTube channel. And if you want to learn how to do it yourself, go get the book video testimonials that land the big fish. Put a link to all that in the show notes all. All right, let's get started. It was great to have you on. We'll talk a little bit about conversion rate optimization. You've got. You've ran an agency and you've been doing this for how long? How many long have you been doing CRO?

Oh, man, I will feel old. We started back in 2006. We actually fell into CRO when it was not even called CRO Conversion Optimizations. I still remember the first nine Months of the agency life, we're like so what do you call this? Were like, I don't know, customer optimization, retention optimization. And everything was just very. Didn't sound good. And then there was a gathering in Austin, Texas and a couple of the guys who are really the founders of the practice, they're like this is called conversion optimization. I'm like thank you, I appreciate that. Now I know what I'm doing. I can give it the name.

You weren't doing anything until it was named. And let's define it for people too in case they don't know what it is. Because I think it's a super important thing. Because just side note, I talked to so many people about websites and they spent so much time like pre website launch thinking they're going to know everything. And then after websites out they're like okay, we're done, I'm just gonna put more content on it. Instead of what should you be doing with conversion rate optimization?

Yeah. So conversion optimization, if, if you think about marketing, most marketing is focused on bringing people to the website, correct. Or most online marketing to be more exact is all about bringing more eyeballs to the website. And I think every business kind of starts that way. Hey, we need to bring more people, more visitors to the website. Eventually they discover that you know what people are coming, but nothing is happening. So if you're an E commerce website, people are not placing an order. If you are a lead gen website, law firm, medical practice, people are not calling, they're not picking up the phone. That's really what conversion is all about. Somebody landed on your website, how do you get them to take the action you want them to take on that websites? So how you, how do you optimize your website for conversion? And, and that's really, it's a vast area that covers so many different things that you need to do on your website. But it's all, if I want to summarize it all, you understand what people want and you give it to them and, and that's really how you can improve conversions.

And I want to talk a little about how you improve conversion, but what are some of the changes that you've seen in conversation conversion? What how websites changed in recently and how people use them.

It's fascinating. So I Remember back in 2006, 2007, we look at the website and remember, okay this is 16, 17 or 17 years ago, most websites were horrible and the expectation, the expectations of visitors were really low. So all we had to do. I still remember one of the first Case studies that we did, we literally changed a headline, changed an image change and we had almost a 200% increase in conversions. So instead of them getting 50 orders, they got probably almost close to 150. And that was a joint project and that was done for Microsoft. And I sold what the Microsoft project manager emailed because he really didn't believe in what we did. So he emailed and his email was just cowards. I'm a believer now. I'm like, well, there you go. Nowadays it's a completely different story. Correct. You're not going to get away with making a couple of small changes because people have higher expectations and you always need to meet those expectations, expectations. So changing, making small tweaks rarely is going to give you the increase in conversions that you're looking for. I always give the best example that I can think of. Regardless of the business that you have, let's say you're in the business of selling something to people. Let's say you have a brick and mortar regular store. Somebody walks into the store, you have a really good sales guy. They can meet with that potential customer, they explain to them and they really understand what they're looking for. Just like they really sell them on whatever product you're selling. Guess what? Your website is supposed to be doing that. Except there's no amazing sales guy. The website needs to be that amazing sales guy. So the words that you use, the copy, the video, the images, all of that needs to work together to help to convince people, persuade them to actually convert.

Yep. Yeah, it all has to work together. Websites have definitely evolved. And how standard should a website be? Because I feel too there's still a lot of people like, I want to make my website look like every different than everything else. And I'm like, oh, do you?

So it's funny how humans are think about this. And I forget exactly when Amazon rolled out Amazon Prime. Oh, you're going to get things delivered within 24 hours now it's like, you know, sometimes couple of days. Absolutely amazing. Correct. It's like when it first came out. Oh, yes. As a result of rolling it out, about 2/3 of US households end up with an Amazon prime membership, which is absolutely amazing. What's even more amazing about it is Amazon makes you pay for that membership. It's not free, it's just. And two thirds of the U.S. households have. That have the Amazon prime. They convert much higher compared to any other website. Nowadays, though, as humans, we expect things to be delivered within a day or two. What is going to Take a week. You know, things that are like, you know, like, oh, this apps like, no, we got you. So this became part of our standard expectation.

It's crazy, right? Do you remember when you'd order something on tv, it'd be like four to six weeks and sometimes eight weeks, you're like, ah. And like things would show up. You're like, I forgot all about that.

It's funny because a friend, she was asking about the website and e commerce website and I guess they're in China and she's asking people, I see their ads pop up on Facebook all the time. What do you guys think? And I was like reading through the comments because I also see the ad and they're like, yeah, just order and forget. Maybe two, three months later is going to show up. And I'm like, whoa, can't really do that. But I guess it's so cheap that people do that going back. And it's just I always tell people, listen, there are things that people expect nowadays. A logo somewhere, your contact information somewhere. So don't go over. Sometimes people like, I want to be different. I'm like, no, people expect certain things. We don't want to use our brains. We expect to have an About Us page. We expect to have a Contact Us page. So you need to be normal in that sense. But, but you also need to sprinkle a little bit of surprise to your visitors with it. Oh, that I did not expect. And that's, I think what's really can make the difference between a website that actually converts really well and a website that struggles with converting people.

And let's talk you, you have this awesome software figpi we'll put a link to in the show notes and it's F I G P I I. And before we get into like how like what you're seeing and how the best practices for doing like for optimizing a website. Tell me a little bit about the evolution. Cause it was really interesting to hear about it. You weren't originally making a software for everyone else, were you?

So I'm going to start you even before. So back in 2004, 2005, I was a software architect, pure software. And I was doing a large E commerce project for Motorola back then. Motorola finally decided, oh, we need to put an E commerce website. I was working for a consulting company out of Chicago and they're like, hey Khaled, you gonna be the software architect on this project? I was one of three software architects, had 120 engineers working on the team as a software architect. That's what you want, correct? Large team, like latest in technology, whatever we said, they're like, hey, we can implement that. And it's funny because that's how it's like. I'm like, we're working on this, we're gonna release it in three months. And I still remember I had no idea about marketing. We've taken co marketing classes in the university. But really I was thinking to myself, my gosh, man, they're spending close to $50 million in three months. I wonder, and this is going to sound silly, I wonder if people are going to come to the website. That's what I was wondering. And I would talk like the VP of E Commerce back then would come and I'm like, sir, how about. And he just looked at me and you don't know what you're talking about. And I really did not know what I'm talking about because when we put that site live, we went live. It's funny, the site had 16 servers serv. Within an hour the site went down because of how many people are coming to Motorola.

Wow.

Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, I was a little silly. I didn't know that lots of people were going to come. A month later they had about 10 orders. 10 orders for $50 million investment. So I always joke and I say some people lost their jobs. Others like me said, you know what, this is an interesting problem to solve. And that's how I fell into conversion optimization. I'm like, hey, can. Is this a typical problem for E Commerce?

Yeah.

That you spend so much money and that you get subtle orders. That's how I felt. Created an agency focused on conversion optimization. And part of conversion optimization maybe we'll get. Because that's also something that FIGPI does is we do AB testing. So every client that comes to us, we'll look like we have to use some A B testing software. Now Google was really nice, they offered some free software. They're like, hey, you can use that. So if you are an agency owner, your biggest dream is to land a big client. So we started the agency. Didn't know what I'm. It's funny, for the first three years I didn't know that what I was doing was called an agency. I thought it was consulting. And then somebody says, no, you're running an agency. I'm like, really? I thought it was consulting. They're like, yeah, it's the same thing, but it's an agency. I'm like, okay, so finally we land ebay as a client.

Wow.

Now we're Gonna, we made it, that's it. A week later, Google pulls the plug from the ABC testing software that they had available. That was back in 2011. So I'm like, oh, hold on, there is no ab testing software. It's ebay. Okay, so we're going to go to ebay, we're going to tell them, hey guys, yeah, there's no more ab testing software. There's those couple of other software packages available, why don't you use them and we'll continue the work. And that's what happened. I talked to the guys at ebay and then they say, get us pricing, let's see how much this is going to cost. So I talked to the software and the cheapest of the two that were available back then comes back and says it's going to cost eBay $25,000 a month. Needless to say, I go to ebay and tell them $25,000 a month, that was a no star. They're like, yeah, this is not happening. We're not going to pay you and we're going to pay on top of that, 25,000. I'm like, what? So long story short, somebody says, yeah, you're a software guy, you can build us something really quick that we can use. Really quick. Yeah, it took about four years of building the software, trying, but it was amazing. Journey.

Correct.

That we're building and we're using it internally, our clients are using it, modifying it, adding things as we see fit. So it's just been an amazing journey until we decided to take it public and make it available to everyone.

Nice. And so it does a bunch of things not just for e commerce. Right. And not just for ebay. And you do things like a B testing heat maps, session recordings which recording when someone's using it, and polls. So with all those tools generally where do you start? And conversion rate optimization, let's say for a service based website for your agency back when you had an agency.

So I always run session recording regularly, not, not all the time, but at least once for a week every month. We like to run session recordings. Every visitor that comes to the website, we're recording, how they're, where they're clicking, how far down the page they're going, how they're going from one page to the next. We might record a thousand, maybe visitors a week. Somebody actually from our team sits there and watches 100, 150 of those session recordings and it says, oh look, everybody who clicks on this button, they end up leaving the website. What's wrong with this. What's happening over here. I love session recording because it really gives you that insight to what it's almost like you're sitting there watching like, you know, stand behind somebody's shoulder and watching what they do on your website.

Yeah, it's crazy. It is. It's fun to watch.

It is. Now the second level that I always like to do is to say, okay, so I have a thousand people come to my website every month and I don't have time to watch a thousand session recordings. So heatmaps is very powerful. Basically what Heat maps, it aggregates all this data. Okay, so a thousand people came to your homepage. Do you know that of those, 1,500 clicked on this link and 200 actually clicked on this other link. And this is how far down the page people are scrolling. So it's very powerful to gather all this data in a nice visual representation. I was working with one of the customers that uses fake buy yesterday and they are a service based company. They're a business broker, I guess they help businesses sell to other investment investors. Long page about their service, what they do, the experience. And I'm like, okay, let's use heatmaps. Since you have this humongous page and you spend. It's almost like five pages by the way of copy that they've done, they put on the web. I'm like, let's see how further down people are scrolling. We look at it and just as we go down, I'm like, by it took us two seconds. I'm like 50% of the people are not viewing this bottom section. And I just move the mouse a little bit more. I'm like, yeah, at this point there's only 10% of people left. It's amazing that you wrote all this copy. But yeah, I'm like. And that's why I thought, I'm like, I'm sorry, I don't want to break your heart, but no one is ever reading this section of the page. It's like, what do you mean this is the most important section? And I'm like, yeah, so if it's the most important, let's move it up because people are not seeing it. So I like to do the session recordings, the heat map. And then every time you watch session recording, everyone, there's a problem here. We were talking about this just before we started the show about the most visited page on a service company's website. There's the homepage, second page is the about us. People want to know, hey, who are you? Before I do business with you. So you put the heat map or you watch the session recording and that's people are leaving from the about us page. What's going on there. And that's what I think polling. That's really that opportunity. As people are leaving your website, you ask them questions, whatever questions you can think of. Hey, like we noticed that as they're about to exit, we noticed that you're about to leave our website. Did we provide all the information that you are looking for? Is there anything missing from our website? About 5% of your visitors will actually take the time to answer. And I always tell people, I'm like, this is absolutely amazing because people are telling you what's not working for them. So we need to fix this.

Okay, love that.

It's just absolutely amazing because you get the feedback, you fix it and then you look again. Let's take a look at heat maps, let's look at session recording, let's ask other questions, so on and so forth.

Love it. It's amazing. It's funny because I still feel like people, your general business population spent like you said, just spend so much time beforehand trying to guess all these things and then they're like, I hope we got it right and put it out there.

It's amazing. I was looking at this study from Microsoft and Microsoft's humongous correct all these different websites and one thing that they do is they like redesign all these websites constantly. Oh, let's improve here, let's improve there without thinking. And they said they can say with confidence that about 90% of the new sites, the new beautiful designs that they've launched causes a drop in their conversion rates. They feel like, okay, let's fix it. It looks so much better put it out there. And people are like, no, like the old thing. Like I like that.

Yeah.

And it's funny because again, humans are creatures of habits. We like that. And even if it's clunky, give me my old dumb website that you've had.

Yep. Yeah, I know it's not having the key in the car, right? And it's so much easier just to press a button. But you get used to having a key and it's oh, I missed because I can't find the button. Even though the button's so much easier.

I mean my, my sister in law drives a Mercedes and I guess I haven't driven a Mercedes in a long time. So somehow like she was on our driveway blocking me and I'm like, I had an appointment. So I run, I'm like Give me your keys. I just need to move your car. First off, as I open the door, try to get in, I discover that she is much smaller than me because I tried to squeeze in. I fell out. Really? Okay. So I get in. Like, I moved the chair a little bit. I'm sitting there, and I'm like, how do you turn this car on? I'm. I have, like, a new car. I kept on looking, and she looks at me. She's like, you seem to be struggling. I'm like, I can't figure out how to turn on your car. Show me. I felt dumb, but I'm like, yeah, like, we're used to certain things. Correct. At some point was the keys, and now it's the button. And the case of Mercedes was something else. I didn't even look. I just felt so dumb about it.

But it's true, right? And we expect people, like, we have all this stuff on here. They should know where it is.

Yes.

From a website trend standpoint, I think. I think good websites are taking more stuff off, making them simpler and simpler. What are some of the things that just shouldn't be on your homepage anymore that you guys are seeing that were legacy things?

Yeah. I think it's funny because you talk to a business person, and if they're really a good sales guy, they'll talk just with normal language. You feel that, oh, I can converse with you. And everybody says, you should do the same thing on your website. Of course I will do the same thing on my website. And then you start to try and create, Read the copy, and you just go jargon all the way.

Just jargon the whole way. Yeah, we synergize with customer service.

That's funny, because I was, like, going back to that business broker, and I was talking to their CEO, and I. I tried to be nice. I told him, listen, I read this paragraph about what you guys do, because they had it right away. Like, I understand every word that you mentioned, but I don't understand the whole paragraph because anybody can take it. Throw it. He's. What do you mean? I'm like, you're using all these big words that really no one really understands. And you're trying to help small businesses sell their business to corporate investors. So maybe we can simplify it. And some people really struggle with that because they think we need to sound bigger and fancier. I remember when I started the agency, I'm like, oh, I keep coming. I'm like, we need to give people the impression that we're really big. And it was only me and my partner. But you look at us, you think, oh, like the way we're, like, dealing. And my partner would look at me. She's like, call it. We're small. Why are you making people think that we're humongous? And it took me years to discover that people hired us because we were small. We gave. And I'm like, you know what? I'm not that big company. As a matter of fact, if you want a big company, I'm different. Clear, concise, normal copy will win at any point in time, I think. And I still see, by the way, is like, one of those areas that you look at the website and I'm like, oh, yeah, I can help you improve conversion rates. Let's change your copy.

Oh, I know. I was just looking at another agency's copy the other day. Sorry, if you know who you. I'm talking about you. But it was like, we. We provide breakthrough solutions to rocket your ROI and B2B solutions. And I'm like, that literally means nothing.

Yeah. It's funny because sometimes I think big. Even, like this big C suite. They think to themselves, we have to sound big, and then they use empty words. And I'm like, I don't really understand what you're saying. And no one understands what you're saying. We got hired one time. This is on the agency side. We got hired by this big company. They sell software, very expensive software, $150,000 subscription. And they're literally. We're having the same conversation with their VP of marketing. I was telling her, I'm like, okay, we're going to fix the copy. We're going to work on it. And we fix the copy. And then she's, oh, actually, the whole board needs to review the copy. And that's never a good idea. A whole board. I'm like, okay. And I get, I think, 14 different revisions. Some of them love it, some of them hate it. Some of them. And I'm in the middle. But I'm like, I think you need to meet with the board and they can decide. Because literally one guy says, I love this, and the other guy says, absolutely horrendous. This is embarrassing. And I'm like, can't really fix this. So it's just fascinating where different people, by the way, think of it differently. I, no chef thinks that I've cooked a bad meal today. But there are many of us who had bad meals. Yeah, this was absolutely horrible. You look at the chef. What's wrong with it? Okay, where can I start?

I yeah, no, the opposite. I look at the stuff I make and I'm like, ah, I know what's wrong with it. But okay, great copy. So important. And. And on top of that, what are some of the big misconceptions about what should be on a homepage and what that people are putting on there?

Let's talk about something that I keep on encouraging people to put. I think a couple things. I start with the headline. People sometimes don't pay close attention.

Oh my God.

So important headline. You need to tell people that they aren't in the right place. Here's what we do. And you need to intrigue them a little bit where they're like, oh, I'm intrigued. I'm going to stay. I don't know if you've seen hey.com he y our friends there in Chicago, their headlines are very powerful. Email up sucked for many years. We fixed it. I'm like, oh, everybody thinks email sucks. And oh, this is actually a really cool headline. The second thing that I think is extremely powerful. People buy from people. That's just the reality. Whether you want to acknowledge that or not. How do you humanize? How do you make people think that, oh, yeah, I'd like to do business with this guy. Not hiding behind words and beautiful design. I think video, when used correctly, is extremely powerful. On our landing pages, on our homepage, we just use video all the time. And it took me, by the way, a long time to recognize that. I'm like, oh, maybe it's the team, maybe. No, I do. Five, six years ago, I would see my friends, I'm connected to all these digital agencies, and they'll ask, hey, what's the best a B testing software out there? And everybody would recommend other software. I'm like, friends, okay, I didn't really understand. I'm like, how do I tell them that my software is great? Three years ago, I decided I start wearing the hats. So that's okay. That's one thing. And I start recording videos. So I do like, you know, LinkedIn and I do YouTube actual videos. And I could never tell whether it's working or not. I just put the videos and I see people in conferences, they're like, oh, we've seen your video. And I'm like, they're just being nice. You never know. They're just being surface, actually helpful. About two months ago, somebody asked, I'm like, hey, what's the best software out there? And about 40 different comments mentioned FIGPI. And I'm like, oh, maybe video does work. Because I have not changed anything else. I have not done anything different. So I'm like, okay, so this works because people now see the human side. They see me answering questions, they see the experience. It's extremely powerful.

It's. You're preaching to the choir, you're preaching to the reverend. Because I, I appreciate that and I preach about it. But it's people buy from people. And like you said, if you're a small company, show that. Because that's just people that want that. Yes, there are people that want the big company, but you're. When they find out you're a small company, they're going to be turned off. But there's so many people, especially now once you work, they've been burned by big companies. And it's so cool to see a software that's not built somewhere else by someone that they don't know. It's like Khaled here wearing this.

Cool.

Ha.

And I feel like I know him and I'm going to use his software. Right?

Yeah, We've tested this, by the way, to me, I would hope so. Oh, we've tested it quite a bit. And it's like we have few things that I ascend the hole. I'm like, oh, we're going to just do this for any website and it will do really well. I love, by the way, for on. On the homepage, I love customer videos. And we have a specific format that we usually ask and there's many different formats. But what worked really well for us as we ask the customers, hey, what. How was your situation prior to hiring the XYZ company? And then what happened in your life that day when you decided, you know what, I'm done with this problem, I'm going to solve it. And how is your life now after you hired Great questions, three questions. And usually we recommend doing longer interview, but I'm like, get those pieces, put them on the homepage. Guess what first, if somebody has the same problem, they're like, oh, yeah, I have this problem. Yes, great. So you actually do solve it. You're providing social proof and you're humanizing the company. I'm like, you've done three things with one and on average. And I've seen video increased conversion rates by 18% and I've seen it as little as 8%. But I'll take 8% more conversions anytime of any day of the month.

Yeah, an 8% raise. If you got like 8% sounds like not much, but if it's. If you got an 8% raise, most people would Be pretty happy. If I had 8 more percent more profit every, you know, month, I'd be really happy. But it also, I feel like it also has a long term impact, right? You remember it more, you convert more converge. Not only in the website, right. But then there's the entire customer value.

And yeah, it's funny because I recorded a video. So Google optimizes like the AB testing software that's recently Google had used and then they decided to shut it down. Me being on YouTube, I recorded a video and I'm like, okay, Google optimize alternatives. I'm like, let me just put this out there. I think. I don't know how many views I had. Like no, 15, 000 or something views. And then people contact us for a demo. So I jump in on a call and then right away they say, they're like, oh, I'm talking to somebody famous. I'm like, okay, thank you. It's you. I saw your video. It's amazing. They're like, hey, yeah, can I like book another appointment with you? I'm like, sure.

That is fantastic. And that's really cool that you're. Because you're YouTube. Another thing I'd say is you're pushing people back and forth between website and YouTube. It's so important because people learn on YouTube in the websites there. You know what? I think one of the big technical things I know, I always ask people too is when you're talking like top navigation and above the fold, what should be. What do you see needs to be above the fold now? What needs to go away?

Yeah, I think about. You're above the fold area. That's your prime area. That will persuade somebody, convinces them that they should stay on the website or they'll say, not for me, me, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna leave. Logo is important. This is the things that people. We go back to what I expect to see, I want to see the name of the company should be very clear. I expect to see contact information that should be very clear. Your headline should be also very clear. We talked about that. Understand? Oh, that's what you do. Yes. This is exactly what I'm looking for and should intrigue them. And then I always think of the homepage and that's crime, real estate. Think about the job of the homepage. The job of the homepage is to tell somebody you are in the right place. Let me direct you inside. And so it's almost like somebody's walking to a store. Let me take you inside. That's exactly what the homepage does. So if you have services, here are our services. Why don't you go ahead and explore? Or if you want to learn about us, here is about our team right below that. And I think this is very important. I like to have social proof. And this social proof, by the way, is this could be anything you can imagine. We're working with a company out of Portugal and I was talking to their CMO and she was mentioning. She's. I'm like, oh, you're missing social proof. And she's like, yeah, this is so obvious. Let's go ahead and add it. I'm like, hold on, we'll add it. I'm like, how do you. How would you like to add it? What kind of social proof do you have? She's. We have all these influences that mentioned us. Also, like, we had a couple of magazines that mentioned us. We've done like no business with so many. They help small businesses basically sell from. From Portugal in the us we can mention the number of businesses that we've done that we' in the last year or we can mention the number of star reviews four different ways. And I'm like, please tell me which one of those ways you'd like to mention. Because we can't mention all of them. Just pick any of them. It doesn't matter. So we go back and forth. I'm like, let's a B test it. You have 5,000 people coming to the website. Let's show like, you know, we'll divide those people into four different buckets and we'll see which one works. Fascinating. Which one do you think helps? Let me ask you this, what do you think and which one helps between those?

I don't know.

Believe me, I would have said I don't know either. That's the reason you test it. Correct. I was like, sometimes people tell me like, which one? I'm like, oh, that's the reason. It's fantastic.

I always lean towards if it's something I don't know, saying I don't know instead of guessing.

Oh, I love that. No, I like that, actually. It's just much better. Fascinating. So for this particular website, mentioning the number of businesses that they've done help them, like sell in the US the number of businesses, help them increase conversion rates by 17%.

Wow.

The second one, which you know is the star reviews like that they had. The reviews that they had on Google, they had 4.9. I forgot how many reviews, influencer mentions and magazine mentions actually reduce their conversion rates.

Interesting.

Now here's the thing. If you had to ask me of all those three different, four different things, the one thing that they actually, I cannot verify and validate as a visitor is how many businesses you helped last year. Because they could have come up with that number just randomly. Let's just put 200 businesses. The number of reviews that you have on Google, the influencers, the magazine, I can verify that. But for the people who are coming to that website, that's what matters. But I'm like, wow, it's just, it's so fascinating because sometimes what works with one website doesn't work with another. And that's the reason we say, hey, test it out.

Test it? Yes, test it. Everyone's audience is different. Everyone's. And the situations are different. Right? It's. And continuously test it. That's why it's awesome to have this type of software. Because what's working today can change and be different next week. Right?

What's powerful about a B testing? And people lots of times tell me it's like a B testing a new thing. I'm like, no, no, you actually, look, you've actually been dealing with a B testing for many years. And they're like, I'm like, even before the Internet, they're like, how? And like, every drug you take has been a B tested by the fda. We take a sample population, we give them the drug, and then we measure and then we see whether it works or not. It's been done for so many years now. We're just using it in the web context. And it's really. And one thing, by the way, with drugs that happen regularly, every few years, the FDA says, you know what, let's go ahead and test it again. Let's just validate that this drug is still working. We think about it from the website, hey, let's create a design. Oh, it's great. Top our conversions. I come back a year later and say, let's see. Because the economy has changed, people have changed, our businesses have changed, our positioning might have changed. Let's just sit out again and see if it's still working or not.

Yeah, it's so important and there's big things. If you don't have a ton of traffic to your website, should you still be AB testing? What's the traffic volume where you should stop AB testing so you can do.

AB testing at any level of traffic. But here's a caveat to it. I always tell people, when you have lower traffic, if you run a B test, let's say you have a thousand visitors that come to the website or 500 visitors that come to the website. And of those 500 visitors, maybe your service company and five of them only contact you when you run an AB test that is going to take six months. And it's going to be extremely painful to watch that test. Now, here's what I tell people. Let's say I have a new design. I don't know whether the design is better or not. I still want to test it, but I'm gonna relax the rules of A B testing. So usually it's statistics. Whenever you do an A B test, you say, I am aiming for 95% confidence that I got the better design. I'll go back to my FDA example because I love the FDA and the AB testing that they do. So they require. Every drug on the market requires 95%, which means we give it to the population, and 95% of that population says, yeah, this drug is actually very helpful to me. And then they run another test. And then. So it's multiple phases. And that has. And sometimes they require 97.5 and sometimes 99% so that they're sure of the drug. So there is this paper out of Harvard and said, hey, when somebody's terminal and they're about to die because of cancer, we don't really need 95% confidence because they're going to die in five months or six months. How about we lower that to an 80% threshold? And when you're going to put something maybe as over the counter, maybe 95 is not good, maybe we should aim for 99%. So going back to our website, when your traffic is low, lower your standards, because you're just trying to get signals whether people like the new design or not. When. If your website gets tens of thousands of visitors, guess what? You increase the standard to 99%. And you just have to understand, like, where your site sits.

Yeah, no, that's great. That's great advice. But everyone should be changing, adapting. I'm a fan of getting. Especially if your website's crap, get it out fast and then fix it. And then copy is one of the easiest things to say, to fix all the time, too. And people should be testing that out.

I always tell our guys, I'm like, We're like, we have the agency, the CRO agency, And I tell them, guys, every time we need to modify our website, there's 30 people and everybody has an opinion. And it takes forever. I'm like, this is not what we tell our clients. I'm like, just get it out, test it, see whether it works or not. And there's a good chance. That's the thing about a B testing, it's very humbling experience. You think this design is great, you test it out and people don't like it. Come on people, this should be amazing. Why don't you like it? Why is the conversion rate lower? But it is what it is.

It is what it is. And then put a link to figpi in there. Tell us a little bit about using figpi. How does it work? How much does it cost? Who should be using it?

FigPi is designed for any type of website that is looking to understand how their visitors interact with their website and they're looking to improve the user experience and the conversions on the website. Installing figpy is a piece of cake. One thing that I paid very close attention to, I said, you know what, it's a software that's built for any normal website owner or marketer. We don't want to make it very complicated to install. So literally it takes less than five minutes. I was going to say five seconds. Don't I wish five minutes to install it. Simple script, put it on your website and then you're able to start saying, oh, let's start watching how people are interacting with our website. Let's start creating heat maps. FIG PI starts with. There is a free test test plan if you want to do a B testing. And then outside of that there is multiple plans that are dependent, that are based on the. They're based on the number of visitors that you get per month. Actually, it's funny because I, I'm like, oh, let me look at the pricing because I have not looked at it in a little while. So yeah, this the smallest plan. 30, 000 visitors is $149 a month. But again, if you just want to do AB testing, we give you up to 75,000 visitors. It's absolutely free.

Love it, love it. So we'll put a link to all that in the shows and Khaled, what's the best way? Where do you spend your time on the line?

So I live in the land of LinkedIn, so I'm usually hanging out over there. I used to be very religious about posting every day and now I'm like, okay, maybe I don't have the time to post every day, but at least I do a weekly LinkedIn Live usually. It's fascinating to me. Sometimes I'm like, oh, what, there's 200 people watching. I'm like, I don't know if I have that many interesting things to say and I feel that. But But I love LinkedIn and establishing the connections. Twitter is interesting or X I guess in this case I consume more than interact.

Yeah, interesting. So we'll put a link to your LinkedIn in the show notes and obviously fake pie. But Kyle, thank you so much for being on the Garlic Marketing Show. I really appreciate it.

Thank you for having me. I enjoyed our conversation.

Yeah, it was awesome. And thank you all for taking Khaled and I on your journey. The Spinach and Garlic and the Garlic Marketing Show Video. You know it'll make you an authority.

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