The Connector Podcast - Unchain Fintech Festival - European Digital Finance Association (EDFA) - ...

Welcome to the Connector Podcast, an ongoing conversation connecting fintechs, banks, and regulators worldwide. Join CEO and founder Koen van der Hooijdonk as you learn more about the latest available trends and solutions in the markets.

Good morning.

Morning.

Live from Unchain here in Romania. Nice to have you in the interview.

Nice to be here.

Thank you, Keiju. Just to start, can you tell me a little bit more about yourself?

About myself, my name is Keiju Kalaus, and I'm a chief product officer at Mifundo. It is a Estonian startup aiming to make cross-border financing borderless in Europe by removing the barriers that people and banks have in European Union.

Sounds like a big challenge, but we'll come to that challenge a little bit later. I just want to focus a little bit because we're going to spend some time together today. I want to focus a little bit first on who are you. So looking at your profile and your career, I saw you started off as a translator once back at the time.

Yes.

So guide us through what happened.

What happened? I actually studied Spanish language and culture at university, so that's the reason why I started as a translator. But life took me to Spain and quite fast there I jumped into banking. And since then I have—

The wonderful world of banking.

The wonderful world of banking and finances, yes. And yeah, I have been a product manager, a process improvement manager, quality manager, and then ended up as executive manager of Spanish branch in international banking group. So that has been until I came to—

So that's where it all happened, from a translator into a Chief Product Officer. And then can you share with us what is your secret sauce? Because I think what you do is new, it's special in the markets. So how do you actually come to a certain strategy? What are your tactics?

What are our tactics? I think maybe first I need to explain what is the problem you're solving.

Please?

The thing is that cross-border lending is not working in European Union, where we are supposed to have free movement of people, goods, and services, right? You can order from German Amazon, you get everything, you can travel without problems, but for some reason it doesn't apply to financial services.

Some.

I can prove it, and I usually use my own case. I'm Estonian. I lived for a long time in Spain, 16 years. And then when moving back to Estonia, I had planned to buy a house, went to the bank, wanted a mortgage loan, and the banks denied my application because they didn't have my data, because my data was in Spain and they didn't have access to it. So what we want to do is make this data to go with the customer wherever they need in European Union.

Nice. And coming back to the product part then.

Yes.

How did the idea come about? And I guess what I'm looking for is like, what is the secret sauce that you use to come to this, like, ideas of new products? In this case, I think it was clearly because you were confronted with an issue. But I guess today in your day-to-day, are you applying some techniques to productize things?

Yes. So actually there were 2 reasons why we came to the idea. One was this, my personal experience from end customer point of view. But second part is actually also our long experience in banking sector. Both me and Kaido Saar, who is our CEO and co-founder, have been working in banking for over 15 years. Kaido was the chairman of the bank and I was working in Spanish branch. And already there we saw like this gap, how difficult it is to expand to new countries, to get access to the data, to understand the data, and why banks actually don't accept foreign customers. For people who have recently moved to the country. So, those are the 2 reasons. I think our secret sauce is precisely this knowledge we have. We know how banks think, we know what they need, we know customer pain, and combining it all together, we have set up the strategy to face this challenge.

And because you mentioned cross-border, there is the element of product, there's also the element of people. So, how do you deal with that? Cultural aspect of the business?

I don't know whether I understood your question.

Yeah, so there's product side.

Yes.

But I guess you have teams that work across the boundaries, across countries. So how do you deal with that? How do you deal with the cross-cultural relationships in your team? I guess remote, or how does that look like?

Yes, so actually currently we are still a startup. Our team is not too big, 10 persons, but yes, it is international. We have people working in Finland, Poland, and I think we are quite used to it. Both Kaito and me have been working in this bank I mentioned before. It was operating in 9 countries, and we have always been working cross-border and multicultural. So living there 16 years in Spain as an Estonian, I think the opposite characteristics have prepared me quite well to understand those nuances of cultural differences. Definitely.

Would you have a tip for the listeners and the watchers, what to do and how to deal with that situation?

I think the most important thing is to understand that people are different and accept those differences. That's the basis. And clear communication.

And today in your teams, how do you do that? Do you use a lot of conference rooms or what do you use as the main way of communicating between all the locations?

Speaking of communication, I think one is also important thing is regular stand-ups. At some point we did it daily, now it is weekly depending on how intense period is going on. Slack, of course, is open 24/7. So those are the main channels. But yes, direct communication always is the best. Email, I don't like that much because it leaves a lot of interpretation room.

Okay, so what would you consider then the difference between an email and a Slack channel?

Slack is more intermediate, I think. And Slack, I have this small button to call as well if needed. If you see that, you can immediately call. Email is like longer.

Yeah, so short, crisp, and if needed for a longer discussion. It's like not so long ago, there was like the company guidance from Elon Musk that they were found out, I mean, they leaked And that was exactly what he's saying too. Crisp communication, if not, pick up the phone. So you're applying the same. Good, excellent.

Without knowing it.

Without knowing it. Great minds think alike.

Exactly.

Looking back at your career, which is obviously a very bold career that you made, what has been the biggest achievement? And please don't say starting your new company. To make it a bit more difficult.

Yes, usually when I'm asked this question, I always remember one thing. It was back when I worked in Spain. At some point, Management Board decided to move out from Spanish market, and I think that was my biggest challenge and achievement at the same time, to do it in a really short time gap, fulfilling all set goals, and ending up with good numbers. And how?

How did you then deal with it? I mean, how did you make it happen?

I think the most— the biggest challenge was the motivation of the people. So once it was communicated, okay, after half a year—

So we come back to communication with people.

Yes, come back to work and do all the rest. That was the challenge, but I had a great, great team and we actually managed to do everything. And the other challenge was operational, Because we reduced the team from 30 to 5, and those 5 people had to do the same work. So, like, rearranging all the time the tasks so that everything important is covered, that was my main task back then.

But I also saw that you are a black belt in Lean. So, did that actually help?

To be honest, I'm not black belt yet, but I'm proud owner of green belt.

Oh, okay, green belt. Getting there.

Getting there. But yes, both. Lean, Agile, and 40X have been the methodologies I have used a lot, and back then they were really helpful as well.

And a question, did you learn the methodology from within the bank because you have a bank history, or did you learn it as a startup?

Actually, in the bank, it was as well quite innovative. They were always looking for good new ideas, how to choose the best ones, how to do it quickly. So, I started with those methodologies there. And today they're still using them in the startup as well.

Because there's some people that say that the banks have learned from the startups the methodology, the lean startup methodology, agile and so on. But for you it was the way around.

For me, yes, but probably banks still got it from startups. I do everything the way around.

Do you then consider that the way you do it today is still inspiring for the bank? Have you changed the methodology since you were at the bank?

Maybe a bit, because Lean actually, in my opinion, is a bit for later stage when you have already processes in place and you start looking for ways of optimization and the waste and so on. And right now we put more focus on 4DX for choosing the right focus and keep the focus and Agile for quick iterations of the developments.

And while talking about Lean, something very important in Lean is obviously Kaizen, that's the continuous improvement, but even more important is the voice of the customer. So, how do you take the voice of the customer in a startup role that you do today? How do you stay in touch with your customers or your future customers?

That as well, I have actually a really good background. When I was a quality manager in this bank, then I was calling our customers on a weekly basis, different customer groups, and that's what I continue doing today. So, I'm actually calling directly to our end customers every week to gather their feedback, to listen to their pain points. I think that is the most important thing in the beginning a product manager must do.

And any tips for the audience how to Get it kickstarted.

Pick up the phone and call your customers. Very easy.

So yeah, you are you're on the phone a lot. I imagine that that makes sense. Me too, by the way.

So because email doesn't work as we talked before, direct communication phone. I'm maybe maybe old school, but that works the best always.

Yeah yeah, I guess then I'm old school too. What you also— what I also picked up from reading your resume is that you're a continuous learner. You always learn new things. How does that work? I mean, I'm a startup founder myself too, and my day is full. So how do you actually manage to do the continuous learning within that probably very busy schedule?

Here SportX comes to help as well because you have to set it as a goal for yourself. And plan it to your agenda. If it is planned, you have the time. There will always be tasks you have to do, but if you have planned this 1 hour, 2 hours per week, it doesn't have to be a lot, but you need to separate time for that. And if you have it planned, you can do it.

So a lot has to do with time management.

Yes.

And where did you pick up that skill?

From 4DX, the 4 Disciplines of Execution, that actually talks all about that, that you need to Set your goals, plan your time, and really consciously work on that every day. You have certain hours per day when you're doing innovation, certain hours of day when you're doing daily operations, and certain hours of day you're dealing with your development.

Well, this methodology is heavily used in the industry by a lot of people, and very often there's also projection of objectives. Is that something you do as well?

Basically, I haven't heard that term, but I think, yes, we call them WIGs, leads, and lags. So basically, you put the most important goal, then the measurements, how you measure them, and what are the activities that help you to fulfill the goal.

Yeah, that's what I mean. It's similar, but it's about how you visualize success and how you work towards success. And I personally believe that within a company, it's no different. It's that what they say, the big hairy goal, right?

Exactly.

Interesting. Well, talking about the company, I'd like to dive in a little bit more on the company itself, MiFundo. You already explained a little bit what you do, but can you maybe repeat and maybe go a little bit more in depth what exactly you're solving and how is the journey where you are today?

So basically, as I told before, we are solving the situation where cross-border lending or cross-border financial services are not working in EU.

Mm-hmm.

Because it is a fact that there are no loans, for example, for expats and multi-country people. Multi-country people are those who are living half-time in one country, half-time in another country. And the reason, and now from a banker's point of view, is that banks just are not able to assess the creditworthiness credit risk of those people.

Is it really boiling back to that only problem, or are there any other problems that come up?

This is the main problem. We have been talking with banks a lot as well during the last year when we came up with our idea, and we have been presenting it, and they all do agree that this is the main issue. And where it comes from, or the root cause, is that it's not that we don't have data. We have a lot of data in the European Union. The thing is that it is highly fragmented. Bad managed. We have 27 member states, 50 plus credit bureaus all over Europe. But each credit bureau is operating in their own country silo. They are not sharing the data outside of the country. There is no common data pool. So what MiFundo does is that we make this common data pool. We collect the data from different countries into one single hub. We standardize the data. We analyze it and we calculate pan-EU credit score. So all banks can trust it. It comes from the original source. And based on that, they can make informed decisions.

It almost sounds like it's too obvious why it's not there. Is there any regulation that's reaching a hand to you to make this sort of harmonization possible?

It seems easier than it actually is.

Oh, I can imagine. I can imagine.

We have been asked, like, why haven't banks solved it? I haven't credited or solved it, but the main challenge there, and for me as a product manager, is that the data is not standardized. It's really different country by country, and the main effort from my side at the moment is standardizing this data. What database from one country is the same as this other database?

Comparing apples with apples.

Exactly, because today they have nothing to do and it's just big hassle for credit bureaus in order to standardize it. And from bank point of view, there was an interesting finding last year as well. Some of the banks, they actually shared their statistics about the portfolio. So, all in all, between 12% and 15% of their customers are foreigners. It was higher than they expected.

Wow.

They thought it was a really small part. But the thing is that most of these 10-15% of customers, they're not coming from the same country. They're coming maybe from 20 different countries. So the share of each of the countries is so small that for one bank only, it's not financially feasible to do it.

Yeah, okay, get it. So the client base is interesting, but the data is scattered around different countries.

Yes, it's too big effort for such a tiny— like, just one nationality, let's say it's 0.97% 7%, it's not worth it. But adding them all together, and what Mifundo does is that they provide the data from 27 countries through one single API, now it makes sense. And as we can offer it to several banks, not only one, then it's also economic.

Maybe I'm thinking very boldly here, but are we not moving into a world where your data will be the prominent data rather than the country data?

Still probably not because we are getting our data from the local credit bureaus. That is the first point. We are not competitors, we are partners with credit bureaus.

Well, I understand, but if I was a bank and I knew that there was an API that actually combines everything in Europe, I would also take that into consideration because I don't know, I could have a client that looks good in my country but might be in debt somewhere else.

But definitely for cross-border data, Mifundo would be the option to get the information.

So I would imagine that the value of your data goes up the moment it's available.

And the more data we have, the better quality, our AI learns quicker and better and makes more accurate calculations.

Okay, I hear AI, so let's jump in that a little bit later. That's always a nice topic. And you earlier mentioned that Today it's apples with pears. Do you see any trends amongst the countries in Europe? Do you see changes between the north and the south, between the beer and the wine countries, for example? How does that look like? If you could give a view on that.

Changes regarding what?

Yeah, because you say in every country it's different, slightly different. Is it slightly different or is it very different?

Very different.

And what is the difference? Where lies the differences?

I think the simplest example is credit score itself. In each country, the local credit bureau calculates the risk score of the customer. Now, it's not the same. The scales are different. For example, in Estonia, it is percentages. Let's say 70%. In Poland, it's number 250. In Latvia, example would be E3 300. And in Finland, it is A+ B-. So what the heck does it mean? So is it A+ the same as E3 whatever in Latvia?

The gaps are huge.

Exactly. So what we do, we take, as we know how those scores are calculated and what's the PT corresponding, we put them on the same scale. So it doesn't matter where the customer is coming from, this number means the same thing.

Yeah, but ignore my ignorance, but I think it's interesting also for the audience to sort of understand, there is no legal framework in any country that obliges you to work with percentages or with labeling.

No, no, it's local practice.

So how do you actually then come to your framework? And how much do you get pickup and understanding from the banks that are working with it from other countries? So, how have you built the framework? Because you recalculate in a way, you recalibrate in a way, but you do that against the framework. And where is that coming from?

We are actually using one really common scale used in the country. I think it's called FICO scale from 300 to 850. So, it is kind of the most used scale. So, it's not our invention. We are using the existing one. So, pretending it would be one standardized scale in Europe as well as it is in the rest of the countries.

Interesting. While talking about credit scoring, talking about AI, maybe combine them a little bit. I came across a nice company in South Africa. which were using location-based data and a lot of other stuff, combining all that into a credit score. Is that something that you see is happening in Europe as well?

Yes, knowing it.

Tell us more, tell us more.

I can't tell more, but I know that there are like really different data pieces that surprisingly may affect the credit behavior of people. of the customers and banks are actually using it. And if you're talking about AI, where those reasonings may not be so transparent and understandable anymore, actually this AI Act was introduced in order to regulate it a bit, and it still has to be explainable and transparent. The principles apply.

Yeah, and you said you're using AI yourself. Can you elaborate a little bit more Where you use it and how you use it without revealing the magic sauce?

And I am not a data scientist, so AI is the expertise of my colleague. But in general terms, we actually use AI in 2 different places. One is calculating the credit scoring, standardized credit scoring, uh, pan-EU using different parametrics and so on. But it's not doing it on the go, let's say. It is analyzing the data, making some, uh, some, some, some conclusions, and human always overlooks them. And if they make sense, then we apply those, uh, those of these criteria to our engine. And the second place where AI is really handy, and for that we need more data to come in, is actually matchmaking, which means Once we have a bank's risk appetite, banks, when they onboard with us, they say that, okay, I want that kind of customers, and we have the customer profile. Then over time, machine learning can start predicting which is the best offer for this customer, where is the highest probability that the bank will make the offer and the customer will accept it. The higher the probability is, the higher is ranked the offer.

And that's something that's on the product roadmap or it's something that's already available?

It is starting, but it needs a lot of data to learn and get accuracy.

I understand your business is probably also a ripple effect. It starts with the first bank and more and more banks come on the platform and unlock the countries, I would imagine. So, where do you stand today in that journey? Is it like a few banks? Is it a million banks? Where are you at the moment?

Let's start that until now we have raised €2.3 million and the goal was to validate the business model, to build the technology, and to prove the traction. So, what we did is that we obtained the license so that it is legally okay to do it. It's a valid thing. We built the technology. We made We have established contacts with 27 credit bureaus, not all of them onboarded yet, but in onboarding process. We obtained 10,000 end customers as early adopters who have registered or pre-registered in our waiting list, and we actually signed contract with 4 banks. So, we are having our first revenues.

I think that really counts as a sort of proof of concept. That's a big one. Talking about funding, I also saw that I heard that there was some European funding involved. Can you explain a little bit more how that came about? How did it work? What did it bring you?

I must admit that that happened before I joined actually MiFundo.

Well, you can tell anything you want then.

But yes, we got funding for developing our AI model for this bunny risk scoring.

And have your colleagues ever told you about the complexity of the process?

I think it was pretty complex. I know it is really hard because we just recently made it to the final round of EIC accelerator funding, so that was tough. So, I imagine the previous one as well.

And what does it bring you to the business? Is it like a rubber stamp from the past that you take along, or what does it— how does it help you apart from the cash?

Apart from the cash, I think it's really important that European Union is supporting this idea because the problem we are solving is European Union's problem and people living in European Union. So, if they are not interested, then who should be? So, I think that is the main thing. It kind of validates our idea and showing that they are behind it.

Makes sense. You mentioned that several banks already signed up, 4 to be precise. Do you see a pickup in certain regions or is it historically Estonian versus Spain? Or collaborating with Spain?

We actually started as we were piloting last year, then those 4 banks are coming from Nordics. So, we have 2 banks from Sweden, one from Lithuania, and one from Estonia. Next step we took, we introduced our solution to next bigger scale banks, Norway, Austria, and then yes, Spain, Italy, France, that are like those big countries with the highest rates of expat And actually, all the banks we got to meet, they confirmed that yes, the share of foreigners is higher than they expected and they definitely intend to use us.

I think for me, as a takeaway from this interview, is that sometimes figures really can speak louder than words.

It is.

It's nice that as a startup scale-up, You sort of can reveal an issue that they were maybe not aware of and that you come with a solution.

It is surprising because they think, no, there shouldn't be too many of them, or like they usually think it's like minor, and then they will really look into the numbers, they get surprised.

And do they get surprised also from a risk point of view?

Not really, because as they don't have the data today, They are not just accepting those customers, so the risk is zero. And what we have calculated together with them and based on our own experience is that having the data that Mifundo can provide—

So, it becomes an opportunity.

Yes, actually it reduces the credit risk up to 7 times for the banks while helping to increase the business volumes by 15%. So, opportunity.

I hear a lean person speaking about percentages. I'm surprised there's no takt time and things involved. Well, you also mentioned 10,000 clients and customers on the waiting list. How does that work? Because my understanding so far was that you're a business-to-bank solution. Where are those 10,000 customers situated?

Okay. So, actually, Mifundo is more complex than it does seem. Currently, this year, we are focused on P2P model, but last year when piloting, we actually made a full-scale pilot. So, meaning that we also have B2C part, which connects directly to the end customers. So, there are basically 2 customer journeys possible in Mifundo. The first one is that the customer already knows which is the bank they want to use in this new foreign country, then they go to the bank.

Mm-hmm.

And bank makes query about the data through Mifundo and handles all the process on behalf of the customer. Second journey would be that the customer doesn't know. Let's say I'm going to Spain, I don't know which is the bank that is financing expats and foreigners there. Then they should come to MiFondo, open an account, and we will find the matching bank in Spain for them.

Okay, so you become a marketplace?

Yes and no, because it's more than just lead generation. First thing is we help customers to gather the data. It's really transparent, they see everything available about them. I can also see that, okay, is my credit score good, bad, regular, and get some tips in order to improve it. If it's needed, and then they can make decision that whether I want to apply and then to us.

Super interesting. It almost feels if I was a bank. Well, maybe I'll turn it around. Is that the reason why you need the license? Because you provide that service?

Yes, the license is for cross-border banking intermediation.

Yeah, exactly.

Actually, data. Solution alone doesn't doesn't require a license.

I was thinking exactly that the moment you said we are licensed. One of my questions in my mind: Why the hell did you license it? But that now explains exactly. And I guess license is a European license, so it's very easy to passport as well.

We are actually in the process of upgrading it to mortgage license with Cispanio and applicable.

Nice, nice, good story. We're almost at the end of the part where we dive into the company part. So, what I'm still very intrigued about, how does the future look like? What's the roadmap and what is all the amazing things that's still going to happen?

As for the roadmap, we actually have like really 3 really clear steps. we need to take. So, first thing we need to do is building the pipelines with a meaningful number of credit draws in order to offer value for the banks. As if you remember, I told that the share of each nationality is so small that we have to have at least 10 draws in order to get some meaningful data. It's a fast-growing market. Once we have this meaningful data, we start onboarding banks. Once we have meaningful number of banks, we have value offer for customers, and then we can scale out for end customers in order to get this borderless Europe we are looking for.

How does that future look like for you in terms of timing?

In timing, as for credit bureaus, in the beginning of this year we decided that it will be the focus. So, now it's beginning of— ending June. We have contacted all 27 countries. 12 of them are in onboarding process or ending it. So, I think by the end of this year we will cover the whole Europe. So, already we—

Very ambitious.

Yes, and actually we plan starting from autumn to onboard banks. So, currently already we are talking with banks saying that, okay, those are the credit bureaus we have to offer, and the goal is to scale up with Thanks. Second half of this year.

Again, it was nice to go back with you in time, but it's even more amazing to look forward because it's— I know there's a lot of work, but it's very ambitious. But we wish you obviously all the best to do that. Looking forward brings us, I think, in the last part of our interview, and that's more about what the future will bring and what's on the horizon on a larger scale. Cross-border lending is something new, something fresh. If we would propel ourselves like 10, 15 years ahead, how do you see Europe looks like? How does the global situation would look like?

When talking about cross-border lending, then one of the things I have to highlight is that as of today, we are not talking about fully cross-border lending. We are talking about credit assessment of foreigners moving to another country. For banks, the risks are lower because the customer is actually living in the same country where they're operating. Just the data is elsewhere. In the longer run, in the future, we actually see fully cross-border, meaning that also people, I don't know, living in Estonia could borrow from a bank in Germany without having to live in Germany. But that takes a couple of steps before we get there.

Yeah, but that you foresee as the future situation?

I do. With all the technical innovations, immediate data sharing, more and more data each time, it should happen. It shouldn't be like people can't do things because of this kind of barriers.

Well, today and in the past, The market has changed, that we have PSD2, which is pretty much on the cash current accounts.

Right.

And PSD3, sorry, is adding some additional stuff. But then we're also heading into FIDA, which is taking also that credit part in there. Do you see that FIDA and/or PSD3, is that an enabler for the future vision that you have in mind?

We actually have been thinking about it as well. It definitely will enable, but I don't believe they will substitute credit bureaus. Talking about open banking, I see as well, like most of the times when we go and introduce our solution, then most people think that open banking already covers everything. But there is a but.

A big one, actually.

A big one, actually. There are a couple of those. First thing is that for analyzing open banking, you have to be sure that the customer has provided all the bank accounts they have. In most of the cases, we face situations that customers only give the account where they get incomes, but not the other ones where they have those liabilities. So, that's the first thing, how you know you have all the accounts. And the second thing is that from open banking data, you actually can't see past payment remarks, meaning that if the customer 2 years ago had a debt, You can't see it today in the open banking data. This is what credit registries handle and keep.

So, it lacks the historical dimension?

Yes. Or as of today, customers paying, at some point they are not paying anymore. You don't know, is it because they ended up paying the loan or they just stopped paying it? That doesn't reflect on the bank accounts. And it's vital for banks to know. to assess the risk.

Do you see, because earlier you mentioned that you received funding/recognition by the European Union, by the commissions, by matter of funding, do you see that there's other ways that they can help you to sort of envisage that goal? Or how can the European Union, or how should they help you further?

Probably 2 ways. I before mentioned this EIC accelerator grant that we applied for. It includes also investment element. So, we think that having European Union in our cap table would be of really big help in order to build the trust. It wouldn't be anymore like Estonian startup handling all this data. But it would be European Union in the cap table, so it changes the game. And second thing, of course, is about regulations. Often we still face resistance from credit bureaus. They are not used to it. It has never been done. If it has never been done, it's probably because it can't be done. And then it takes a lot of time and effort to explain that it actually can. And they are not really willing to do it because additional work for them. They are cozy where they are. It's convenient for them. So, regulatory pressure from that side would be of great help as well.

Have you ever considered to apply a user-owned, user-governance sort of approach where maybe the credit bureaus become co-ownership of you so that you actually share the risk and sort of keep things afloat as a collective market infrastructure?

Not yet.

I come from a world that's where this is, this is my bread and butter, so it kind of can work very nicely. Take an example, I didn't work at Swift, but Swift is a good example. It becomes an infrastructure. Maybe some food for thought. Um, we earlier talked about AI. Um, what do you see as the, the technologies of the future? that are useful for your line of business, and how do you see that evolving?

For our line of business, so cross-border financial services?

Yeah, exactly.

So I can think 2 or 3 of them. Definitely already mentioned AI and machine learning application in credit risk assessment and risk management.

So no-gen AI also.

Second thing would be already covered as well, open banking, especially with PSD3 coming. And actually, third thing I would— technology I would say is MiFundo, because it covers all the hassle for the bank and actually has potential to set a new standard for cross-border lending in European Union. So, I think we could be there.

Imagine that world where cross-border lending is The new reality, maybe 5, 10 years, the future will tell us. How would you then see the mitigation towards currencies? I mean, Europe, a vast majority of the countries are in Europe, but there's still a lot of countries that have their own currency. So, how would you then see that? Do you see that as part of your offering, or do you still see that as a separate thing to hedge the currency risk?

Probably lies on the bank side. As well, as I told, if we're talking today, we are not having this kind of risk because we're always talking about people reallocating to the country where the bank is operating.

That's today. But propelling ourselves to the future situation?

So, definitely, when this situation comes, banks have to take it into account. When calculating these customers' affordability, they need to add the calculation about the customer capacity to bear the currency risk as well. So, how much could it increase and is the customer still able to make the payments? So, it's additional calculation definitely needed in order to comply with responsible lending principles.

Well, it was a great conversation so far. And to be honest, I learned a lot of new insights. So, very thankful for that. I hope the ones that are listening also get like new insights. That's the purpose of this interview. But since we're at the end, are there any like final words that you want to share with us and the community?

Final words, let me think. I actually, one thing, hey, if there are banking people among the audience, Then I definitely recommend to check the contact you. No, first check your customer data, customer portfolio data to see how big share of foreigners you have. I bet for between ten and fifteen percent, maybe higher. But if it's lower, let me know. And if it's higher, I definitely see opportunity there.

Interesting. And maybe then the last thing: Where can people find you?

People can find us in mifundo.com as in. It's as simple as that. We have it in English. You'll have all the information there and you actually can pre-register yourself as well for the waiting list. So basically the idea we have is that the more— the bigger number of people from one country we have in the waiting list, this will be the next country we're going to. So if you want to come to your country first, then come and sign up and bring your friends as well.

Kaju, thank you so much for participating to this first interview by EDFA. Thank you very much for sharing your insights, and let's go up to the next.

Yes, thank you so much for having me.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

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