The Connector Podcast - Unchain FinTech Festival - European Digital Finance Association (EDFA) -T...

Welcome to the Connector Podcast, an ongoing conversation connecting fintechs, banks, and regulators worldwide. Join CEO and founder Koen Vanderhoydonk as you learn more about the latest available trends and solutions in the markets. Welcome again to our next interview at Onchain in close collaboration with Adfa. the European FinTech Association. So now I have with me Patrick. And Patrick, what's amazing about you is that you can effortlessly speak French and you effortlessly speak Dutch. So please explain us what's happening here.

Thanks first, Koen, for having me. Yeah, I'm half French, half Dutch. So my mom's Dutch, my dad is French. I had the opportunity to live in the Netherlands from 7 to 10 years old, and that's where I learned Dutch. And I think you have a few questions on that later, but the funny thing is that often people say or ask me if it was any use being able to speak Dutch because it's in the end a fairly small country. And actually, it has always been very helpful. First of all, because I started working in a Dutch bank in Amsterdam called ABN AMRO. So there it was useful. And then, and we'll probably discuss this later, but I had an experience in a Belgian fintech, so there it was useful as well. And I think honestly learning a second language at an early age helped me also learn other languages. So yeah, I think it was a good experience to live in the Netherlands at this young age.

So you literally became a polyglot, as they say.

Yeah, actually I manage 3 languages. I know the The wife of my co-founder, she actually speaks 5 or 6 languages, which for me is the next step.

The objective.

Exactly, exactly.

All right, thank you for sharing some information about you. And that's also the first part of this interview where we're gonna deep dive a little bit. Who are you? Who is Patrick? So, um, maybe can I ask you what actually inspired you to, to actually start a startup? Why did it come the difference between the bank sector and then suddenly becoming an entrepreneur?

Yeah, it's— I think from during my studies, as a lot of people, I maybe you don't really know what you want to do, so you make non-decisions. You go for the options that close the less options and that leave the most options open. So that's basically what I've done for quite some time. So I ended up in M&A advisory at ABN AMRO, which I really liked because I was working with very interesting and nice people, which throughout my career has always been something very important to me. But soon I wanted to be really active, to do something that had impact. So that's not really what you find in consultancy. Obviously, that was a bit frustrating. So when I got the opportunity to join a startup in 2015, and actually before that, I had the opportunity to start with my former colleagues a small advisory firm in France, which is now doing pretty well, which is called Case Corporate Finance. I like the idea of being part of a new project and building something. So then I joined in 2015 a fintech based in Belgium called Ivan First. I had a great run there during 6 years, and that's where really I realized that what I wanted to do is create something with a group of people. I'm not someone that is able or would like to do it on my own, so I have very quickly after I decided to go, I had the chance to be joined by, by great co-founders, which are Greg and Bertrand.

It's nice. And, um, what I particularly found intriguing in that journey when you went to IBAN first is— and it's now sort of been emphasized by your explanation— that was a lot of like consultancy work, more the financial work, corporate finance. Which for me, it makes very sense that you are the CFO of that company, but it was a combined role with CFO and COO. And that's the finance versus the doers. How did that marry? How did that connect with each other?

Yeah, I think it's twofold. First of all, it's an evolution. I started as the CFO, so helping on the capital increase rounds, which was more of my background, so a bit of a comfort zone there. So that was good for me. But then again, it was a very early stage. So I think there were around 10 people in the company at that moment. So, and that's really what I like. Whatever your role or official role is, you need to do a bit of everything. And that's really what I like and what I'm doing again at Swypto. And that's what drives me actually to a— solve small issues of the day-to-day business. That's really something that I like to do. So, I evolved into the role also for different reasons because you start with the CFO role and then there are constraints and we'll probably discuss this later, but being in the fintech environment, regulation is obviously a very important topic. So, you have also constraints in terms of And delegated administrators of the company. So there were roles to be occupied, and so it evolved, and then we adapted, and we were, as most of the startups need to be, a bit agile in how we developed.

I almost think that you're a corporate octopus.

Maybe, maybe. You need to define that for me then.

Like you can do a lot of stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

And don't mind to get your hands dirty.

No, that definitely.

Yeah. What has been the most significant lesson that you learned at iBud First?

There have been many, obviously, over the course of 6 years.

Oh, I like that. When there's many, there's many answers.

Yeah, yeah, there are many answers. I think, as I mentioned before, for me, what was paramount in the success of the company was the team that we were able to create and the talents that we were able to attract, which Obviously, at inception, when you're a small company with not a lot of funding and things like that, it's a bit of a challenge and it's very important for the future. So, that's, I think, a very important one. I think also learned a lot on how you build a product, how you discuss and manage tech teams, how you define a go-to-market strategy. And I think maybe the last one is maybe how important it is also to be able to define a clear vision and mission for the company so that everyone in the company is well aligned on where we want to be, how we want to get there. And also, yeah, things like OKRs and how you manage and how you make sure that everyone's aligned within the company. Yeah, I learned a lot, definitely.

That's very obvious in your answer too. Which one of them would you say has brought you the most towards the founding of your current company, Fypto?

Which one of the key learnings?

Yeah.

Yeah, then probably on the payment side, but obviously what we experienced, and I think that's definitely one of the reasons we founded Fypto. We realized that payments and international payments for corporates were not at the level of service they should be, specifically in a world where Amazon exists. And if you order before 6, you get it at your home the next morning. It's still strange to realize that if you send dollars from Belgium, for instance, to Japan, it can take several days and it's very untransparent. And that for us is due to the technology that is being used. So, SWIFT messaging, the correspondent banking networks, which obviously is performing really well and it's very robust on certain corridors. But again, there are examples on corridors where it's not what it should be in terms of speed, transparency, and cost efficiency. So I think that's basically where we realized that there should be a new technology or something, an alternative to this technology to facilitate this transfer of funds.

Well, there's a lot of things to do in the cross-border space, and later on we're definitely going to deep dive a little bit more on that. But for now, I'd like to still find out a little bit more about you. You mentioned how to build teams and how to sort of collaborate, and I heard the term OCRs. Which is a very corporate language. So, how do you apply that sort of thinking, building a team in your current situation?

Yes. So, we are still quite small. We're 30 people now, 2/3 of the team being product and tech. For us, as you mentioned, what is important is for everyone to be aligned. So, we use this OKR technology, so, Objective Key Results. So, we try to define them. every quarter and in order to make sure that everyone has in mind where we want to be. For us, what is important at this stage is that we decided also to go for somewhat more senior team. So, we have quite senior guys.

Right.

And girls, obviously. And the idea is for them to be, as I mentioned, in my previous experience, And you were mentioning the term corporate octopus, so everyone needs to be a bit agile and flexible, but also, and I think that's why we recruited them, the best or experts in their field. So we expect from them that they bring their expertise to the company and that they are able to operate in quite an autonomous way, because in the end, there's a lot to do at this stage for everyone.

Yeah.

It's not the idea for us to be micromanaging anyone. Everyone has to do his job, and that's how we will get there.

So, you see it as the magical combination between, on one hand, clear vision versus people that know what to do and know the markets.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. We have a clear idea of what we want to be, where we want to be, and then we recruit people that are experts in their fields and that will tell us what we need to do in each field And by finding those people, would that then automatically sort of mean that you set up a global company, or do you also find those specialists very close to you? It's a good question. So, from inception, because it was so important for us to build a strong team, we recruited a great talent who is in charge of talent acquisition. And we had this question a few times on whether we should prioritize people that are close or where it's easy or expertise, and we always try to prioritize expertise. So, we go try and find the talents where they are, and that's how we operate. So, we have people now in Belgium, in France, in Portugal. We have someone that is helping us out of Tel Aviv. So, yeah. We have quite a global team, as you mentioned.

Yeah. And then how do you, yeah, you kind of have clear objectives, but how do you bring the team together on a day-to-day basis because they're based in different locations? Any tips you could share on that?

It's a, that's a very difficult one. I think with COVID everything that's related to home office exploded. So, there's a huge trend towards video conferences and things like that, which obviously works. It has proven it has worked. But for us, again, being still small and in the startup phase, it's also very important to manage and to be able to create a company culture, or at least for us it's important. And that's a challenge. So, what we did at the beginning was to organize frequent team events so that everyone could get together. And now we're a bit bigger with 30 people, so getting together is— It's more complicated. It's more complicated, and there's a price tag to it. So, we are obviously being a bit more cautious, but we still do it on a quite frequent basis because I think, again, it's paramount for people to work together efficiently, for them to know each other outside of just video conferences. So, yeah, that's what we try to do.

Well, and considering you're that polyglot that speaks 3 languages very fluently, how is the positioning within the company? Do you focus on one particular language and that's the language of everyone, or do you say, no, it's everyone his own language? What's the sort of position you take there?

Yeah, we are very ambitious, so we want to expand globally and we also have initiatives already in in the US with someone sitting there. So, we want to think of Fipto as a global and international company from day one. So, the language for everyone is English. We have people actually within the company that don't speak French and everyone speaks English. So, it's an easy choice.

Yeah, well, makes sense, makes sense. Well, considering you're an entrepreneur, a successful entrepreneur, If you could give the audience one particular tip, like the one and only pinnacle advice that you could give, what would that be?

Well, yeah, I think, and it's easier said than done because as we discussed earlier, it took me quite a bit of time to do it. So, but I think that the advice is go for it, try it. When I see also What I would consider as maybe more natural entrepreneurs than I am that started straight away. I really like their experiences because you see that they learn in a very short time frame a lot of things. So, yeah, I would encourage— I have 2 sons— I would encourage them to go for it soon because I think it's a great learning tool.

So, plunge the water.

Exactly, go for it.

Go for it. I like that. Since we have been talking about you, Patrick, the whole time and the company name Vipto came about very often, I myself am super curious to learn a bit more. So, can you enlighten us what Vipto does as a company?

Yeah, so as I said, we made a few statements when we created Vipto. The first one was the one that I mentioned that the The technology that is currently being used is not super efficient on certain corridors. So that was the first statement. The second statement was that we saw that there were new tools that were available to corporate clients to make these type of flows, most of them being based on blockchain technology, which for us was interesting because— and we'll discuss this probably later— but blockchain enables Transparency, speed, and cost efficiency. So that was interesting for us because it solves most of the pain points of the first statement. But it also brings along quite a few challenges for corporates that want to access these new technology or this new rail of payment. The first one being, how do I open a wallet? Very pragmatically.

Mm-hmm.

How do I make sure I do it in a safe manner? How do I make sure that the flows that go in and out of my wallets are compliant? How do I make sure I will get the corporate governance layer that I'm used to being a corporate? So multi-signature threshold and things like that. So that to us was interesting because it didn't exist. And then the third statement, which is more or less our vision today, is that we're convinced that there will be more and more financial services that will be based on blockchain technology in the future. So, our mission is to facilitate access to those new financial services to corporate clients.

That's a mouthful, I would say.

Yeah, definitely.

How does that fit in a very crowded market already today?

Yeah, honestly, on this specific topic, i.e., offering a solution that enables clients to open wallets, IBAN accounts, and convert and go from one to the other in order, again, to be able to use this new technology as an alternative payment rail. I don't think we are that many. We're focusing on, again, very specific use cases, whether it is making payments in or out of complex corridors, whether it is adding an alternative payment method for payment service providers, for instance, that get more and more demand from their end clients to be able to top up their accounts using cryptocurrencies, or whether it is to optimize the internal flows of those payment service providers. I think these type of use cases are quite new and linked to the development of blockchain.

Yeah, understood. You already mentioned cryptocurrencies, and I know we Comparing apples with pears, but today it's rather easy, I would say, to get fiat into crypto, but crypto back into fiat, that's more complex. I'm talking about retail markets. So, how would that reflect that same problem statement on the corporate payment and the cross-border payments?

Yeah. So, for us, it's obviously an important one, being able, and it's part of our value proposition, To be able to integrate the liquidity providers and the payment providers that enable us to have a global coverage in terms of on-ramping, off-ramping, which you were mentioning. So, being able to access crypto but also to off-ramp to go back to fiat. So, that's basically the name of the game for us. And we have a good coverage of Latin America now, Africa, and finalizing Asia.

So, that's It works.

And yeah, when you see, I think it's the BCG report that said there were 30 million new customers using stablecoins today for $3.3 trillion a month, you see that there is significant traction around these flows.

The countries that you mentioned, have they a particular characteristic why they are actually already let's say, ahead of the pack, if I may say that?

Yeah, I think again, more broadly for us, if we look at the world, what we see is that there are— if you look at the local payment schemes, in our view, they are quite efficient and quite good. If you look at Brazil with Pix, for instance, it's an amazing system working really well. So there are these local payment schemes operating very well. And for us, the whole, again, name of the game will be to to connect these local payment schemes. So, I think for us, it's really the idea of optimizing the flow between the payment schemes. So, the countries that are interesting for us are countries like Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, for some very specific reason, was an important one today. Nigeria is also a country we look at and some Asian countries as well.

What actually came to my mind when making my preparations, I noticed that you are regulated by the French authority AMF, but the examples you named are outside the European Union. So, how do you manage the examples you gave me and the fact that you're a regulated company in France/Europe by far by passporting? Yeah.

Yeah. So for now, actually only France. So regulation, as I said, is a very important topic for us. So we need to combine the licenses that enable us to handle and manage and custody cryptocurrencies. So that's the VASP licenses broadly. So we are registered as a VASP or PSAN in France since March 2023.

Okay.

And we are also going for the payment institution license for different reasons, being able to to receive funds from our clients in fiat, but also being able to pay for them to third parties is important. But we also see that with MiCA, it might be very important to have a payment institution license as well. So for us, and to your question, we are trying to get a strong regulatory setup, but the clients we're targeting today are in France. They are doing flows with these different countries where we have, as I said, local liquidity partners or payment partners that do the off-ramping. But today, where we are focusing on is clients in France or in the markets where we are regulated.

And these clients that are predominantly pay-in clients, or—

We have a bit of everything.

A bit of everything. Okay. You're a VASP. That is something you don't hear that frequently, to be honest. Are there many VASP in France?

It's a good question. There are actually more than 100 now registered.

More than 100? I'm very surprised.

Yeah, you need to make the difference between registered VASP. So there are more than 100, and there's only one company that has the full VASP license, which is PSAN, which is Société Générale Forge. But I think in that sense, France has set a standard or they are willing to be really proactive on this specific market. So we have very good interactions with the local regulator. We are also a VASP in Luxembourg where we obtained our registration last month with the CSSF. But there are countries where it's, as you mentioned, I'm not surprised you are surprised because there are countries where there are very little fast, like in Belgium, for instance.

Yeah, what I hear is upcoming today is Ireland. Yeah, there seem to be a lot of fast, also e-money licenses at the moment. So yeah, it's that sort of combination, I think, with local readiness and regulatory support. So I appreciate that. You earlier mentioned that you are regulated, but yet you also still are rather small. compact company. Yeah, but being regulated means that you have responsibilities against the regulator, you need to be compliant and so on. So, how does that work in a rather compact financial institution? How do you deal with that? Is that not a master or a massive job within your company?

Yeah, it is, but again, the ambition is to go there. So, we are well structured, we have the resources in place to get these licenses, which are today still registrations, but As I mentioned, we are going for larger licenses, which imply to have the resources in place, but also minimum equity requirements and things like that. So those are also reasons why we raised funds over the course of the 2 years since we created the company. But yeah, it's definitely an important point for us, but it's also something I think that is paramount.

Yeah.

for us in our capacity to acquire clients, right? Because we're trying to sell new technology to clients, so they need to be reassured that they can actually do business with us. So, the whole regulation part is very important in that sense because, as you said, it means that we do things seriously, we have the right resources in place, we have the right minimum equity in place. So, that's actually a very important one for us.

Well, you make my interview very easy because you almost bring me to my next question, which is about trust between you and your clients. But I think a little bit wider, if I may focus on that a little bit, blockchain. I mean, let's be honest, it's only very recent that banks are trying to better understand the power and the possibilities. But can you walk us through how does blockchain— what's the importance of blockchain within your offering?

Yeah. To put it very simply, we think that blockchain can be to payments what email has been to postal services, right? So, you will be able—

It's very significant. Walk us through.

But it's a nice image, right? It's being able to send funds from one point to the other without having to go through a set of intermediaries. So that's basically what blockchain enables you to do. It's a public ledger, so totally transparent structurally. It can be very efficient in terms of speed depending on the protocol and also very cost efficient. For us, what the good things are also is that it's predictable, which I think in the world of payments today is something that corporate clients specifically are expecting. And it's 24/7, right? So, you don't have your—

No overnight batches.

Exactly. Cutoff times or things like that, right?

So, that's also something that brings the whole payments technology to the There's also a level, I think, about cutting out the middleman, cutting out these intermediates. In your setup, is there still a role for the current cash correspondents?

Yeah, definitely. I think the idea, and as you said, right, there is still a large component of clients and a large chunk of clients that want to go back to a fiat referential at some point. So, and again, we go— it doesn't mean that the checks won't be done. So we do all the compliance checks when we send out, and the receiver does it as well. So you have checks, but you don't, as you said, you don't have them at each step of the flow, which simplifies things quite significantly. And we as Pipto, Again, the ambition is to combine the best practices of traditional payments with the best of this new technology, which is blockchain. So we bring also the tools that we think are relevant to apply the right level of compliance in the flows that are done through wallet and blockchain technology. So that's chain analysis on the more KYC, so to say part of things. And yeah, that's very important for us.

So it's a source of funds, if you want.

Source of funds and also checking whether the wallet that the corporate client is sending his funds to is a legit wallet. So yeah, that's the checks you need to do. And again, it's all part of this reassurance game that we need to do to acquire clients and convince them that this technology can be used safely to perform these flows.

Thinking in a traditional way of cross-border payments, then multi-currency is one of the things that comes up straight away, and multi-currency then translates into FX. How does that impact your solution?

So, we do actually, for us, Typical flows would be, I don't know, paying a supplier in Mexico. So a typical flow would be that the client sends euros to us. We then do the on-ramping to a stablecoin, let's say USDC or USDT, send it to a liquidity provider locally in Mexico that will do the off-ramping. And that's something we can settle in 10 minutes, right? So that's the whole idea of the thing. And we don't keep any exposure to volatility because we have back-to-back transactions with liquidity providers.

So that means there's a lot of players also still involved in this setup?

Yeah, there are still quite a few. My view is that— and to drop another statistic, I think 70% of the central banks are saying that they will launch digital currency initiatives in the coming years. I think at some point you will have less middlemen because the flows will go from one wallet to a wallet without having the whole on-ramping, off-ramping issues. But yeah, today it's still—

And again, you're stealing my thunder because I wanted to ask you about digital currencies, CBDCs specifically. And in our previous discussion, you were not there, but we had a long discussion about What is the purpose? But I think if you look at CBDCs from a corporate point of view, there is definitely a reason for existence. And then where do you fit in? Do you fit in into the interoperability part, or where do you see yourself fitting in into a potential future with corporate CBDCs?

Yeah, I think our conviction is that CBDCs will be built on different protocols because in the end, It's a matter of national supremacy. So it's very unlikely that the digital yuan will be built on the same protocol as the digital dollar or the digital euro. So there will be, as you said, an interoperability issue. And that's exactly where we come in, right? Our vision and ambition is to build a solution that enables clients and corporate clients to use whatever coin they want. as easily as they would use fiat currencies today. So that's really— we are agnostic of the coins the clients use. If they want to use USDT, they can. If they want to use USDC, they can. If they want to use the future CBDCs to be launched, they will be able to do it with us.

It's almost like a multi-rail sort of service.

Yeah, exactly.

We talked about various parts of your business. We talked about compliance, we talked about technology, maybe also a little bit about risk. What are the risks associated to the business model and what are the risks that you actually mitigate/solve?

Yeah, so for us there's obviously risks around the tech and the solution. So that's for us an important one. So we have a strong CTO that is backed by a CISO sitting in Tel Aviv. So that's for us an important one. There again, we are ISO 27001 also because that shows our corporate clients that exactly we have the stamp and that it is a focus area for us, which is definitely the case. Then we have, I think, risks around the business itself. So as I mentioned, we try— we are not exposed to any volatility because we take back-to-back transactions with liquidity providers. So we reduce the exposition of the business as strongly as we can. And then we have our compliance officer that is obviously making sure that from a reputational standpoint, the procedures that need to be in place are in place and respected within the company.

Makes sense. How does the future look like for you?

For us as a company?

As a company.

As a company, for us today, I think we did quite a bit of work in discovery. As you mentioned, as we just discussed, I think for us pushing a new technology into the market is a challenge, and we needed to figure out where were the clients from a geographical standpoint, but also from a sector, industry standpoint, where were the clients that were using or having appetite for this technology. I think we are there now for sure. So we need to scale and acquire these large clients. Today we have a strong traction with clients that are naturally exposed to Web3 industry. So they use cryptocurrency. So it's not an easy sell, but there's not a lot of adoption to be done there. And it's great because they test the platform. But today we need to go to and focus on the somewhat larger clients with larger volumes and And I think we know where they are and we know how to address them. So that's the biggest challenge for us in the coming months. And we're very much focused on that.

Well, exciting times, Patrick, I think. It was nice that you shared with us some insights on where the company is going. I also like to just pick your brain a little bit on how the future could look like. As a very, very open question, if you were in control, how would the payment landscape look like?

Well, I think, as we mentioned, I think in our view, what is expected from payments is that they become instant, perfectly transparent, predictable, and cost-efficient. I think, again, The new technologies that are emerging and blockchain specifically are helping us to get there. But I think in the future there's lots of things to be done also using what blockchain brings on top of just transferring funds. It's also smart contracts, so programmable payments, so really getting the hassle out of executing payment out of the hands of the accountants and things like that. I think that's an interesting one for the future. In our view and our ambition is to integrate our solution within the tools that are already used by corporate clients. We build the solution as an API-first solution, so we're able to integrate it into the treasury management systems that are used by our clients. We actually have a solution that is being developed on the Kiriba platform. So we're very proud of that. So I think stronger adoption of this new technology and stronger usage of what it can bring with programmable payments is probably one of the key elements. I think there's also a large trend around tokenized deposits, which is interesting to follow because again, there it will It can ease the flows within the companies in terms of cash pooling, but it can also be something very useful in trade finance more broadly, which is a sector that honestly I master a lot less. But I know that there are strong initiatives there to simplify these flows, which are still quite cumbersome and administrative. So I think there's a lot that can be done in What would you see as the biggest challenge?

Is it the technical challenge or is it the adoption challenge?

I think for now, I think technology is quite strong. We need to make it more accessible and more easy to use, but I think it has proven to be strong and robust. So, the challenge is is adoption. And there, I think favorable regulations, not absent, right, but favorable. So they are clear and defined, will help. CBDCs could be a potential booster of adoption. I think that's probably one of the things for the future. But we see that things are getting there. I mentioned the figures from an From an institutional standpoint, we also see that there are more and more players looking at this, right? It's a bit further away, but the BlackRock ETFs on Bitcoin, JP Morgan using JP Morgan Coin and Onyx to test this technology. I think there is more and more initiatives from institutional players, and that will boost adoption as well.

Yeah, both from the institutional side, but also on the bank retail side. If you recently see all the activities in Germany, for example, but there is a level of chicken and egg in terms of, I guess, regulation versus products, and there's a lot of things happening on the regulations. Do you think there's regulations that are still missing to enable this change?

No, I was actually more thinking about it, I think in Europe Traditionally, regulation often comes before the products and the adoption, and we try to figure out all the different issues that need to be addressed. In the US, it's often a bit the opposite. So I was more thinking about the US and see how these things will evolve with the elections coming up to see What type of framework we will have there to foster potentially the development of these new payment rails. And that's an interesting one.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think it was Trump that said one week ago that if he would be elected, the e-dollar would be a matter of weeks.

Yeah, but in all honesty, I think that they— yeah, I'm not a US expert either, but when they go for something, they usually go and they're very pragmatic and they go fast. So, let's see, for us it would be very interesting, obviously.

Well, there's a couple of obvious attributes that come with distributed ledger technology, as you mentioned, transparency, making it more efficient, but how would you define the level of cost saving and does it bring any cost saving to the industry on the longer term?

Yeah, I think if you look at the corridors that we were mentioning, so it's Specifically, if you want to pay from Latin America to Asia or from Africa to Asia, sometimes we heard that customers were charged 10% of the flow. So, I think there is definitely something that can be done there.

A little bit of room for improvement.

Yeah, there's a little bit of room for improvement. I think there is also an element of infrastructure that is disappearing. Banks are disengaging from certain correspondent banking relationships. So, some of these regions are getting less and less service and it's more and more difficult to access. So, yeah, I think blockchain can definitely be a cost-saving and efficiency enhancer in those type of flows.

I was actually thinking earlier on that that would be your answer when I asked you on the particular regions because you do see a sort of a differentiation from the traditional finance industry in specifically the countries you mentioned, Nigeria, Brazil, China. Yeah, I think that potentially can be a huge driver because they want to have alternative rails to what is very traditional, i.e., SWIFT.

Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly what we're focusing on.

Yeah, yeah. What do you see that— because we talked about regulations and we clearly see that sort of pickup in the US and to an extent also Europe, I mean both.

Yeah.

Do you see that these evolving countries, if I may call them that, are the example companies, countries better? Do you see that regulation has been looked at differently than it is here, whereas everything is still very traditional? Or maybe the need is less?

Well, that's a good question. To be honest, it's already complex to follow what's happening in Europe and in the US in some extent. I think in some way, if you look at Brazil, for instance, they seem to be ahead in terms of what's CBDC. They have the DREX initiative. What they've done with PIX again is quite amazing. Probably having less legacy enables them to move also a little bit quicker on these topics. So, yeah, I think it's interesting to watch how the different countries are looking because there are best practices to be taken out of them.

We talked a lot about payments and heading towards the end of this interview. I was wondering, Patrick, what are the— can you name me one thing that you're following up in our financial industry at White, which is not your main domain?

I think—

And why?

It's not necessarily financial industry, and it's not original. I think probably everyone has told you the same answer, but it's because everyone is looking at that at the moment. It's AI. I think in France we see a lot of initiatives around that. So we are trying at Fypto to see also how we can use in some extent these new technologies to be better, more efficient. So for instance, obviously on the development side, you have tools like Copilot and things like that that are interesting. So yeah, we're trying to follow a little bit what's happening on that front because there will be a lot happening thanks or on the back of these new technologies.

All right, and then one more last question before we close this interview. If you would give the audience one tip about entrepreneurship and startup world, what would it be?

I think I already said it before. I think it's really a matter of of going for it. And yeah, maybe to add, and because that's really something that is important for me, is do it with a team around you of people that you trust and you like to work with. I think that's probably the most important, right? To be able to go to work every morning with a smile and the will to go for it is important. So yeah, that would be the advice.

Patrick, I really thank you for sharing this passion with all of us.

Thank you.

I hope it will actually transpond to the screen, to listening, whatever, what reason you actually listen to this. Thank you very much to the audience. Thank you very much to you.

Thank you, Koen.

Have a good day.

You too.

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