The Power of Empathetic Leadership with Pets Are Family Author, Erika Sinner

Something curious happened to me while I was taking leave. Even though all of my team members understood I got notes, I got text messages, I still did not appreciate how much shame I would feel in actually taking the time off. Would people understand? Would they think it's just a dog? Like, can't you get it together? As a woman CEO, you also wonder, like, am I showing up the right way? Am I doing a good job? Do they think I'm a good leader? Am I too emotional in your day to day? This felt. It just felt like a complete departure from where I was as I was showing up as a CEO and leading and moving things forward. And here I was completely at a standstill.

Hello.

Hello.

Sorry.

Stay.

We both have our little puppies.

I know he's a deeper. This one. It's actually pretty timely. Today he's 13.

Oh, wow.

And if he's with us this time next week, I'll be surprised.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, we're. Hi, buddy.

Little guy.

We're kind of at the end here.

He's.

He's got.

Cushing's disease, which is. Do you know what that is? Right? You know, all the medical stuff. So not all of it. He's been kind of having.

He.

He isn't controlling his bowels very well. So he was gonna have an ultrasound to see if they could figure out what was. If he had a tumor on his kidneys or anything. And my husband told the vet that that was going on.

Yeah.

And the vet said, let's just cancel the ultrasound.

As soon as they lose. They're like, bodily, like, you know, because it. It's hard for them, too, especially if they're potty trained. They feel that.

Oh, yeah, he's. And he doesn't even know he's doing it. Like, it. The good news is not too bad. It's just. They just like, ends up in his bed or.

Yeah.

So he said, we don't need to do that ultrasound because if we find something, we're not going to do anything about it. So we're just going to keep him comfortable.

Yeah. Cheeseburgers. Chocolate.

Cheese.

So Mike asked him, you know, well, how will we know? You know? And he said, well, he'll stop eating.

So about a week, five days ago, all of a sudden, he stopped eating his food, which he's a lab, like. And so I'm like, well, maybe he has a sore tooth. So then we tried soft food. Ate it, loved it. Then he stopped eating that. Oh, no. Yesterday I made him scrambled eggs. Loved it. Last night he had six of Them made it this morning. You didn't eat them.

So anyway, we're just kind of. So we're. We're. We're trying to get through.

Till Sunday. Our daughter is. All of our kids grew up with these dogs, so they're all really close. But our daughter is. She just got her first tattoo and it's of this dog on her body. Oh my God, it's so cute. It's the outline of his. It's just this outline of his like.

Ears in his head.

It's really cute. But she's got a game on Sunday and she's. You know, she's just started starting and we're.

Larry, we gotta getta make it through Sunday. You gotta.

She'll lose the plot.

Yeah, yeah.

As she should. As all understandable. So we're just hoping he. We can. We tried giving him a gabapentin yesterday and he couldn't walk. His legs just gave up.

That's what happened when Kingston could not handle gabapentin. Like he lost all leg function. He could only do like carprofen. That's how he handled the pain. Because the gabapentin. Because a lot of dogs like the neuro part of them can't handle the gabapentin.

I'm going to ask about that. Carpofen.

Yeah. Carprofen. Or we did carpropen is the one that we normally use. Or Meloxicam was an. It's like a anti steroidal to help with some of the. The swelling for Kingston. Just pain. Like you're just keeping them comfortable, you.

Know, but not like yes. Yeah, that was terrible. So we're like, okay, we're not giving him that again because that like he couldn't walk in a straight line and in his hindquarters. And I'm like, oh my God, he looks like he's about to die.

Died this guy or like disabled. Like Kingston dragged his paw like and then he had to like flip it back up to like walk.

It just.

It was a whole thing. Oh, it's so awful. So I'm heartbroken. I will be honest though. My husband is like. He's. He every morning this week. He's just.

Yeah, he's a mess.

So he's already found the person who can come to the house and. Oh good.

I was gonna ask you if you're at home.

We. The last two dogs we took to the vet. One we had to. We didn't have a choice. But.

We said we'd never do that again.

Yeah, same with us. It's hard because in your home, you. It's like a memory that's there, but you. It's the gift you give to them where it's like, it's their happiest place. Yeah.

You know, they're safe and everybody's with them and.

And yeah.

And I. I said to the tech, I. When I picked up the medicine yesterday, I said, I just wish he would. Just because his breathing is, you know, labored and, like, I wish she would just go in asleep.

Yeah. It's not natural for them, though.

Don't do that.

Yeah, that. That's like. And she said it was actually. She said. I thought I. The gasping, like, it was like, it wasn't like a natural transition. Like, it was actually really, like, traumatic to watch versus you could just go to sleep being hugged, you know?

Yeah. But at least by the time that. That starts, they're pretty out. Right. So that's just the body's reaction.

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Actually, my. My girlfriend's father had the same experience when they did hospice, and they got.

The death rattle, they call it. Isn't that weird?

Dreadful.

I'm so sorry, Chris. That's so awful. I'm really so sorry.

It's awful. And it's part of the commitment. Like. Like, we get them and we know they're not gonna be with us the whole time. And so.

Yep.

It's like a. I'm. I just get pretty pragmatic. Like, my husband is one of the. Like, he'll just keep looking at the dog, like.

Right.

He just.

I'm like, he's right here.

Right. Hug him. But it's that anticipatory grief. Like, it is hard.

So perfect timing to talk about pets being family.

Because they are now. I don't have your book yet. I pre ordered it.

So it's still not there, like, on Amazon.

Yes.

I don't know what's going on Amazon. Yeah. It should have come already because it was released March 21st, so.

Well, what the.

I know.

I don't know what's happening. Let me look at my orders. I'll look if I don't find it. But I know I pre ordered it. I know I did because I.

Had it in my queue.

It's always fun when I. I never do this, and then I see all the stuff my kids are ordering.

Yeah. Then you're like, oh. Or even though stuff you ordered.

Oh, that's.

Oh, I did order that too.

Maybe I didn't. Did I order it off your website? No.

Oh, no, I guess I didn't or did I order? You didn't do an audiobook?

I did an ebook. You could get it for through Apple Books or Kindle.

Maybe I did it through Kindle. Okay. Either way, what I want to do on this podcast is highlight you and talk about that you're amazing and all the things you do and. But mostly, right, you think about who's our audience most.

That's what I was. Yeah.

They're women leading businesses or they're. You know, there are quite a few who are executive leaders, but still, they have. Usually have some levels of authority and position. So, really, like, why does this matter? Right. And what are the initiatives that you're recommending?

I like it. Okay. I was thinking about that, too. I was like, how much am I going to go into.

This versus how does it apply to the things that we've talked about? Because for me, like, one of the things that I think about, I really had to learn how to.

How to really set up, like, proper boundaries with employees. Right. Like, there's a. There's a balance between. We're not a family, but also, I care about you. And as a small business, there's a balance between financial health of the business and providing time off. So what is the benefit? That's where I was. Like, maybe I could talk about that.

Yeah, I do love that. So. Okay, we'll talk about that. Okay. I'm gonna put it. So I don't forget to order it. Okay. So as is the case that that's really what I. I would like it to be conversational.

Yeah.

25 minutes. You know, not too much. Make sure we. I'll do an intro before I release it. So I'll do that separately.

Okay.

And make sure you have whatever link or two that you want people to go to.

Yes, yes, yes. Because things are happening. Oh, my God. I just got asked today to do an article for Business Insider.

Chris, come on.

I'm like, what? You want me to do what? And they're like, it's due tomorrow. And I was like, if you said it was due in an hour, you.

Would write it out. I'd figure it out.

Yeah.

That's so fun.

I'm excited. I'm really excited. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a movement, love.

It's happening.

Okay.

So let's just start. Okay. Knowing that the introduction is coming, and I'm.

I have a leery eye over here on the page.

You see her?

Yeah, I can. I want her to get in her bed because I want a screenshot of us with our kids. Behind us.

There we go.

Okay, let me get one. And then I want to post that we had an interview today. I'm like, can I see his tail?

Yeah, I'll smudge there. Okay.

I love it.

Okay, let me see. Oh, it's perfect. It's got his little booty in there.

The booty and the top of her head.

Oh, his little.

When he starts moving around, I get worried that she's gonna bark at me. Okay.

Oh, her face. Right then she side eyed you.

She does.

She's.

And she has a walleye. So one eye. She. She will. She'll be looking at you and me at the same time.

That's amazing. Yeah, I'm. And I'm worried about her. I'm like, okay, she can't be alone.

Yep, that's ready to talk about it. But I'm like, she's gonna need a friend.

She is gonna. But you're gonna get chaos back in your life with puppies.

Yeah. Okay.

Okay. Okay. I'm so excited you're here. Me too. I know that in the introduction I just, you know, gloat about you as well, but I'm just, you know, I know I. I'm always reluctant because I don't want to sound like your mother, because I'm not. But I'm just so proud of you.

So girlfriends can be proud of each other.

I'm very proud. I just am proud of everything that you went through over the course of the last year, which I know we're going to break down and. And where you are today. So why don't we just begin by you saying a few things about yourself and.

To everybody listening and welcome Ms. Erica Sinner.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here. So my name is Erica Sinner. I am the founder and CEO of Directory. We're going on six years, which is awesome. It's been a ride. Thank God I've had you by my side.

And in the last year I've turned into an authority. So I now have a book too. Yeah.

Exciting. So let's talk a little bit about Directory because I do think there's a very real correlation between that business and where that business is. And then why you were able to write a book. Right. About such an important subject. So tell us a little bit about your business. Well, how did this, how did Directory even get to be a thing?

Great question.

So Directory, what we do is we help small to mid sized pharmaceutical companies bring their medications to market. So we come in as their commercial teams. We help them make sure their brand plans actually get executed and that patients are able to get the medications that they have created. So it feels important, it feels impactful. I always thought I wanted to help people, and I knew deep within my soul it was not in the health care space in the traditional way you think about it is like a doctor or nurse or, you know, somebody actually helping someone from a, like, health perspective. So this was my entry point in, is being in the pharmaceutical space and helping from. From medication standpoint. So I spent. I grew up in pharma. I started my first position at 21. I did it for 11 years, made it through the brand team. Lots of different brand launches, lots of different types of conditions I got to work on and learn about. And then I decided to go on my own consulting for a few years because the pharma mecca is not in St. Louis, Missouri, so. So I did some consulting, and it was really. It was amazing because I felt like I could do the things that I really love to do. I'm really passionate about my job, my work, the things that we do. But I. I'm also, I. I love, whether you get it or not, the Midwest. I love St. Louis. So.

After a few years of consulting, though, on your own and what you call a solopreneur, it's hard. It's really hard to be responsible for everything. Invoicing, expenses, booking, travel, but also trying to take on clients. And then how do you do business development and how do you make sure you're going to keep having clients coming back? And so after a few years, I realized if I could, you know, other people start businesses every day, if I could do it, then could I actually be helping more companies with more brands that need to reach patients? Directory was born.

I love it.

Yeah.

And when you say you just decided to go out on your own.

Like, that's a big decision. What.

What did you believe about yourself that made you think, yeah, I can do that?

Yeah. If I'm being really honest, I don't know if I had had my position here in St. Louis be stable and continuing on that I would have ever made the decision. You know, the company I was working for moved from St. Louis to New Jersey. So lots of pharma is in New Jersey, New York, Boston, North Carolina. And so they offered me a package to move. And the day that I found out was also the day we were closing on our house.

Interesting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And I fell in love with our home. I, you know, I talked to my husband about it, and Just, I was heartbroken. And he said, you know, we, we could move if you want to move, I'm open to it. You know, we could do that. This is your career, this is what you want to be doing the rest of your life. And so we considered it for, you know, a good maybe hour.

But then he said we could also bet on ourselves. I believe in you. I, you know, you have a big network, you're really good at your job. You know, I trust in what you're doing. And he said, and I also work. So if something were to happen, we're a team, we'll figure this out. So we decided let's, let's gamble on ourselves. And can we do it? Yeah. There you are.

And here we are.

I'm so glad.

Yeah, I'm so wonderful. Yeah, it's such a, you know, it's one of the things that's so cool about the work I do is meeting all of you all and all these interesting businesses that exist. Right. There's so many ways to be successful and to generate a lot of jobs and opportunities for people in, to work in really healthy environments and also to establish your own wealth and all of those things. Right. I just think it's fabulous. So, okay, so fast forward. Now you have this thriving business. How many people work in directory?

We have 23 full time employees and then we have a whole dozens of contractors that are part of our team so that we can help, you know, more companies. But it is, every day is different. And I'm so grateful for the thought work we've done over the last few years to get to where we are because now I feel like the engine is well oiled and we are now in full on expansion mode, which is something I've been dreaming about for years. And it's, it's really here, it's really happening. Yeah.

And you've really been able to build the leadership team to help you do that too, which has been super fun to watch. Yeah. So good. Can't do it alone, right? Dream really is in the team.

Yeah. 100%.

So cheesy. But it's true. True. Okay, so then, now let's talk about your life.

Yeah.

You're a dog, mom. I am proudly, proudly stated regularly.

Yes.

Yes. Okay, so tell us all about you and Chris and those cute puppies.

Yeah. So Chris. Chris and I have been together 10 years, married nine. And what I love about my husband is he is very pragmatic about life. Right. In his mind, he's not going to just do what everyone else does. He's not going to follow along societal norms. And when we decided to get married, he sat us down and was like, what kind of life do we want to have? Like, what do we want to be doing? And we. That's, I think, for both of us. I still wasn't sure that human kids were not for me until really sat down and thought about, like, what do we want to be doing? Are we ready for our life not to be about ourselves or our careers or, like, what we've got going on? Like, let's be honest with ourselves. And then it just became really clear where, you know, there's a lot of ways to give the love that you have out into the world. It doesn't have to be that you have human kids. And so that's what we did. We decided we were going to be dog parents. And so we ended up with four Sharpe as our children.

And they're all different. Right. They're all from different litters and.

Right.

None of them are biological.

Nope. All different colors. Three of them are brush coat. One of them is a bear coat. He actually looks like a little bear from the wild. But I'm sure, as many of your listeners also probably feel, as a woman CEO, woman founder, it's not the norm. It's also not the norm to just not have kids. So it was my first, I think, start to, you know, people would ask, how come you didn't have kids, but you'd be such a good mom. But. But why not? Like, there's probably IVF treatments. So it's always, it's always been interesting to answer the question and say, no, actually, we just chose this life. And it's wonderful.

No, it's. It's quite an assumption, I think. Right. I think that we'll see what happens with kind of the generations that are coming up after us, because I think a lot more people are making more conscious decisions about what they. What they want instead of just sort of like, I know for sure, like, I'm thrilled I have kids, but I also just was like, okay. I think it's probably that now is the time.

Is the time. Yeah. We should have kids.

Right?

Yeah.

So I think it takes a lot of courage to sort of choose what you want. And. And of course, you can always choose again. Right. Whatever. I think that's also super cool. Yeah.

Yeah.

And interestingly enough, in, you know, Sage CEO, I think we have, like, almost like a pretty good balance between true women who have kids and women who don't. And so I love that that tells a great story. It doesn't. You can have and create the life that you want and the success that you want in your business.

Regardless it is.

Stage CEO and see other women making decisions that are not the norm or what's expected and find, you know, it's like you found your tribe to say, okay, I'm not. I'm not different.

Not the only one in here.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Now why Sharpade.

Oh, my gosh. That's all my husband. That is all my husband.

He was a cat person and I've always been a dog person. So why. When my MLE passed, we did. She was 18. Actually, she was 19 when she passed. We. It was time for us to really decide. Okay, so what are we going to get what again? Back to what fits in our lifestyle? Do we want a lab so we can run? Do we want like what type of energy level? And he just came to the table with. I need to convince you about these Sharpe, which I have learned are the cat dogs of like, they're the cats of the dog.

Interesting. Interesting. Yeah.

They don't come for treats. They don't wiggle their tails. They make a lot of decisions whether they want to feel loved or not.

Very stubborn. Okay, fair enough. Yeah. Well, they're certainly stinking cute. Right? They have a lot of health issues though, Right? That's something you guys learned as. As they've all gone along.

They do. They really do. Yeah.

And what are their ages?

They range from six to nine. Okay.

All right, so now we're into almost a year ago.

Yes. Back in May.

Yep. Isn't that crazy? Holy smokes.

I know. That was like.

Because Hawaii was.

Right.

You came to Hawaii and you got really sick.

Yep.

That was April.

That was April.

That was kind of when. Yeah. You kind of kept having.

The year kind of changed for me. Yeah. A lot of.

Lot of things happening. Okay. So let's take it from there. Because of the way that I see what you went through and then what you made it, what you made with it.

Right. Yeah. So, yeah.

About this time. Yeah.

Yeah. So in, in May, it was a Monday. My entire leadership team was flying into St. Louis for a full week long, full packed agenda of work we were going to do. And that Monday morning as they were all flying in camera, Kingston was not doing well and like so badly. I mean it was very, it was very obvious. And so my husband and I decided to take him to the emergency room and immediately, I mean, they. I actually thought it was kind of irresponsible for them to say it as quickly as they did where, you know, they said there's something really wrong here. We're talking days, we're not talking weeks. And, and they hadn't even done like the full exam. It was just based on the quick, you know, the heart rate, seeing how he was walking, the symptoms we described before we came in. But they still said there was this 5% chance that it was, it was something else. So we were just holding on to that. It was, it was the 5% chance. And it ended up not being. He had a heart tumor and his heart was continuing to fill up with fluid. And so they told us we have three, three times that we can drain his heart. And then after that know it's too much stress on his body. And here I am working in the healthcare space. I'm like, what about open heart surgery? What about.

Is there a pig's heart somewhere? We could. Yeah.

Yeah.

That week was really hard. But it was also a week that I, I, I really took everything that we've put into practice and what we've done through the SAGE program around honoring your feelings and validating yourself and saying, I recognize my entire team is here. I am not going to be present this week. I need to be at home with my family. And this is the work we do. Right. That you set up your leadership teams in the way that they need to run so that they can operate in your absence. And I am so grateful that we did that for the years before. I don't know that that would have been possible.

Well, it might have been that you could have, you would have taken the time.

Yeah.

But you don't know what you're going to go back to. Right? That's the issue. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So we lost him on May 22.

And I have always had pepperiement leave in our policies. I just knew I was going to need it, especially after losing Mutley. Although with mutley, she was 19, I had her since I was 11. I could understand it would just like losing a grandparent. Like, I understood why what was happening. It still was really hard, which is why I knew I needed PEP reavent leave in my policies. And my employees can take advantage of it too. But I it something curious happened to me while I was taking leave. Even though all of my team members understood. I got notes, I got text messages. I still did not appreciate how much shame I would feel in actually taking the time off. Would people understand? Would they think it's just a dog? Like, can't you get it together as A woman CEO. You also wonder like, am I showing up the right way? Am I doing a good job? Do they think I'm a good leader? Am I too emotional in your day to day that this felt, it just felt like a complete departure from where I was as I was showing up as a CEO and leading and moving things forward. And here I was completely at a standstill.

So yeah, I mean it was, it was interesting that I felt that way. But after the leave, I went back to work and then, you know, 21 days later, Edmund our Blue Sharp was diagnosed with cancer. And we spent the whole summer fighting cancer. And it's so wonderful to be able to say he's right here with me.

He's right there.

Yeah.

When you told me that, I was like, come on, I know we doing. Yes.

It shut me down. That was, it was, it was a lot. And so I did take some more time off while we were, you know, we had to go to U of I. So it was three and a half hour drive each way. And there was the treatments and the radiation and the immunotherapies, all the things, the surgeries that we had. And so throughout that time, I think for me, I always have to feel like I'm a contributing member of society. I have to feel like I'm processing something or I'm doing something. So I started to write and that's when I wrote my book because I really feel this responsibility around creating this space for other people. I feel so lucky that I do own my own company, that I did have Pepper Readmen leave and that I could take the time. Time off and I know I wouldn't have been okay if I hadn't. So now I feel like I want to be able to advocate, to create that for other people. Right.

It's so important.

Yeah.

I love, I love that you mentioned, you know, that there's this kind of. Even you. Right. Felt this sort of shame.

Yeah.

In the process because that gives you such insight. I think for our listeners that's such good insight too that even if you offer any kind of leave. Honestly.

Yeah.

People. But when it comes to pets, that the relationship that I have with my pets is. Is so personal that then for me to make that choice and it affects my work or affects my presence, it could feel like I'm. Feel like I'm being silly or. Yeah, you said like. Right.

Like. Yeah. You know, we're all super comfortable with sharing cute photos or look, whatever he did today. But it's not as comfortable to talk about how much it hurts when they pass. And I. I think as a society, grief is just hard in general.

Yeah.

Forces us to look at our own mortality. And even when we lose human beings, I think we all just want to get back to being better. Absolutely. Which is hard. But you talk about crucibles and. And that was my moment, I think, you know, not choosing to have human kids and have a marriage where we don't have them. And that's just our. Our life was something that we talk about and people have interesting reactions to. But I, like you said, I think more are starting to have, you know, families that look like us. And then also to be a woman CEO is also different. Right. There's only 2% of us that are doing what we're doing, which pat on our back. It's incredible, but it still is different. And so this, though, normalizing, talking about pet grief and how much it actually hurts, really just feels like we haven't really started that conversation enough. And I feel really proud to be able to do it. I still find myself sometimes wondering, am I taking this too far? Is. Am I. Am I being silly around it? And I always just have to go back to, you know, how it's like, take myself back to that space where I really needed it.

Well, I want to. I want to understand the book a little bit more here and, and have you share, but I. I want to share with you and the listeners. There's a really good book. You've probably heard me talk about it, Erica, because it's one of my favorites. It's called the Dream Manager, and it's by a guy named Matthew Kelly, and it's an older book. It's a parable. And. But basically, the Dream Manager, they. This company hires a person to help its employees achieve their dreams. And it's like a version of Wendy from Billions, but, you know, not a creepy, weird one if you watch that show. But nonetheless. Right? It's like that. But. But the. But basically the hypothesis that he asserts in that book is that in order for an organization to be and become the best version of itself, it has to help its employees be and become the best version of themselves.

Yes.

And so what I love about the way that you think about this and now, the advocacy that you're really standing for and frankly, the movement you've begun, because you really are leading in charge of and a movement, I mean, you're on TV shows and radio shows and writing articles.

Right.

You're doing. Because what you have to say is creating such an honoring space for the Importance of holistically looking at all of the challenges that employees go through and not like, super overindulging them, but treating them with balance. Like grief is grief is grief is grief is grief. Like, I. It doesn't. I don't feel different grief based on different people in my life. Grief is grief. Right? Yes. So I just. I just. I love that. So. So talk. Because when you told me you were writing a book and you were in the middle of all of your. Driving him do his cancer treatments, I'm like, okay, of course you are. It's like, but. But what a great way to channel so much. So what's the. What's the premise and point of the book?

Yes.

And what is the name of the book?

Good. I need to do a better job of talking about.

I could do a better job asking questions.

It's pets or family. It's as simple as that. Is the. The front cover of it is. Is my family on our last family photo with Kingston together.

And.

And the whole reason I wrote the book was speaking to two different types of audiences. One is those who have lost a pet to say, everything you feel is real. You're not broken, Nothing's wrong with you. Yes, it really does hurt this badly. And then the other is if you love someone who has lost a furry family member because they are family, they just happen to be furry. Um, and you don't understand because you yourself have never had an animal, you know, let me let you into my life and you can follow our journey and at least appreciate what your loved one is going through. And a lot of people, I think, say it's hard when somebody, a human being passes to know what to do. But we still as a society, have, like, funerals and obituaries and you send food, but I don't. Not a lot know what to do when you've lost a pet. And so part of the book, too, at the end talks about, here's some of the things that we received that we really appreciated. Here's text messages. It doesn't always have to be a gift or money or showing up with your time. It's even just sending a text message to say and mentioning their name. You know, I know you're going through a really hard time and you miss Kingston. We miss it too. It just validates again that the feelings are real and someone else understands. So it's both of those.

It's.

It's bringing both groups together and then saying, what can we do? So I think we all can agree when a pet passes it's really sad. And when somebody's willing to open up about it, we both, we all get sad. You see like, you know, even men on TV are talking it and they're going viral. But for me, it's always been how do we get ahead of it? Which is providing space. It's pepper, even leave. So let's not just be sad with somebody, but also like give them a moment. Yeah. To breathe. To your point earlier around, like, it is a balance. There's a balance in like how do you.

That your employees and your team. You are a team. You're not a family, you're, you're a team. And you've, you know, you're, you have an agreement on how you're contributing to the organization at the same time, you know, being there for your employee and, and recognizing that their life outside of work is going to impact their life in work and it's going to impact their productivity and the quality and they're actually representing your brand in, in every interaction that they have with clients.

So how do you balance the financial health of your organization while also showing up for your employee? And that bereavement leave for me is, is the entry point to then talk about. There's lots of ways we can really think about it without over indexing on, you know, giving in on everything. Right. You still have to have a successful business, but there's, there's a way to do it that has balance.

Well, I think, you know, one of the kind of core truths I believe about hiring in general bringing people into a company is it all has to do the success of the, of your ability. Let me say this, your ability to build a high performing, successful team is always contingent on the clarity of the invitation.

And the clarity of the agreements that we mutually make to one another from the beginning. And unfortunately, what most companies do, and then also what most employees do is companies hire people for a job.

And that's it. Like, here's your job, here's your benefits.

Go.

And there's not really any agreements to like our behaviors, our values, you know, to be a part of this. You know, I use the word queendom, right? To be a part of my queendom. This is what the exchange is.

Yes.

This is your contribution, this is mine.

Right?

And then also employees can then just be like, this is just my job.

And I get paid this much and this is my job and my title without really agreeing, really understanding what that invitation was because it wasn't made to the extent. But if you invite me into your organization, and you say, you know, welcome to directory. We'd like to extend an invitation to you to be a part of our organization. These are the agreements that we make. We agree to these terms, right? One of them is pet bereavement. One of them is maternity or paternity leave. One of them is these benefits. One of them is this. And what we also expect in those agreements are you are here in a role to deliver results. Yes, we will honor our agreements as long as you honor yours. And when. That is so mature to me. But what we end up with is this immaturity from leadership and from employees, frankly. This goes all the way around. Leaders like to blame the team, and team members are blaming you. So listen, everybody's participating, right?

Yeah.

Instead, if I work for an employer like that and I have to take my five days of bereavement leave or whatever it is for my pet, I understand.

That that is an impact to the organization. I'm grateful for the time. And I also know I have made a commitment to deliver and I will do so. But for you to trust me and honor me as a human makes me more inclined. When the agreement was clear.

Yes.

Yeah. Yes.

And I think, I mean, it's. It is mutually beneficial, not just for the side around productivity or quality or all of those things. That's right. I mean, the CDC reported it's like 22, 222 billion dollars is the productivity cost to organizations with unmanaged grief.

I saw that. You posted that on Instagram. Say that again. 222 billion. Billion. A year, right? A year.

Yep.

A year. Yo. It's like a lot of money. If you would just. How much instead if we just gave them three days off.

Yes. Like, pragmatically, just look at that. Yeah, yeah. Yes. And, and, but beyond even just the cost, I think this idea around, if you can show up for your employee in a moment like that, never gonna forget it. They're, you know, they're. They're in one of the hardest moments of their life, and they at least feel validated, and they might not even feel comfortable enough to talk to their family or their friends around.

It's.

It's just their dog. Right. I put that in air quotes. But here you are signaling in a black and white policy disagreement. Right. You now have this agreement of, like, these are the trade offs for you working here, but also the results that you have.

I think, I think it's just really important to, to just think about, like, how can you. How can you show up for your employees In a way that does let them know that you appreciate that and, and then also be able to have a mature conversation around what are the results that we need to have as an organization so that we all continue to have jobs.

Being able to have those conversations, I know, is difficult, which is why I need your program as much as I've had. And it's, it's been really. It's been. It's made it really healthy at work to do that. I have talked to some companies who, you know, they are. They say, well, my employees, we're not. We don't have clients. We don't have. They're not salaried. They're. They're literally working a checkout line at the store. Can't just offer this. Right. Like, they're full time, but I can't just give them time off. And for me, it's. It's really saying, okay, well, if it's not a day off, can you. At least when they come back in, if, if they were a smoker, I think you legally have to give them, like, breaks every 15 minutes. Like every hour. 15 minutes every hour. So maybe that's what you do for a few days. You go in and you let them know every hour you're checking in. Do you need to go take a walk around the store? Do you need. Need to go take a. Take a moment to be outside again? It's just signaling to that employee that you understand what is going on in their life and that you are validating their emotions. And then for them, as they're processing their grief, when they're, when they're feeling better and they're coming back, they're. They're feeling like, wow, they really cared for me or they understood.

I mean, I just, to me, it feels very like, from, from just a human being, empathetic standpoint, it just makes sense. I know in the US we don't require federal mandates for bereavement leave. Five states have it where you. You must have bereavement leave for employers. And I don't think that the government should be dictating what we do as businesses, because depending on the size of your business, Right. You might not be able to offer things right away. You might be aiming towards, or there will be a time when you can get there. It's just about business leaders really figuring out how do you strike that balance with your, with your team.

It's humanity.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's trusting.

Yes.

And I think, unfortunately, a lot of. A lot of employers have a Pretty jaded perspective that everybody will take advantage of it. Everybody will do this. And to anyone who has those thoughts, I. I challenge you to this question, which is there is no way.

Anyone could take advantage of it if you were holding people accountable for their performance. Yeah, but because you don't hold people accountable, you get wrapped around the axle about this stuff. And so that if we could just solve that problem where everybody just talks to everybody, hey, listen, you made an agreement to do this and you didn't do it. What's going on? But employers aren't doing that either, and that's why they think people are running away. They are running away with your policies because you're not holding them accountable to anything. So, anyway, that's another call and another podcast.

No, I'm with you. I mean, they also leave it up to their line managers, Right. To just. Well, they'll figure it out.

Right.

And there's not enough training for those managers.

No, they don't know how to do that. Yeah. And then the really nice ones will cover. The really not nice ones are the ones who can't. Won't cover. And then. So it depends on which manager you get.

How. Yeah. Yes. That's why I think it's so important from a policy perspective and from an overall, like, company initiative, not just with bereavement leave, but as you said, like the values and the policies and the way that you operate your business, if you can outline it in black and white, whether it's your handbook and then how you are communicating with your leadership team, how they're communicating with their managers. Everyone really has to be aligned because this is your business. Like, this is your culture, this is your livelihood, this is your baby. But it is now, like you say, like it's outside of you. Right. It's a living, breathing thing. And you don't want to just leave it up to chance that a manager is going to have, that the employee experience is going to be changed because of a manager. When here you've worked so hard to create this environment.

Absolutely. Yeah. And that does happen, which is true. Okay, so Pets are Family.

Yes.

Is a book for people going through it, people who. Who would like to understand it better. And then tell me a little bit about what you're doing around, literally, the initiative of advocacy for more focus on pet bereavement, etc.

Yeah. So the book is mainly for both of those. And at the very end of the book, I have resources, and the resource resources are, you know, if you don't. If it's it's not my story. Here's all the data and statistics supporting what I'm saying. And then also if you're an employee and you want to advocate for PEP bereavement leave in your organization, there's tools for that as well. Coming from an employer standpoint, and it is even the emails when you come back and it focuses around what you said in this agreement term of hey, I'm coming back from grieving, from, from bereavement leave. I know these projects are important. Can you help me prioritize? Because I want to do a good job. Right. It's the employee acknowledging too. I have these deliverables. I also recognize them really struggling. So help me figure out what's what order to, to do them in. There's also gift guides, text messages, examples, all sorts of things back there. And then from a broader sense, you know, the bigger I am advocating for PEP treatment leave overall. I have a change.org petition ask calling on business leaders of the United States to, to do the right thing. Because even from a brass tax standpoint, right like it, it's mutually beneficial. And so for me, my entry point is PEP brief and leave. When I talk about my overall goal around empathy driven leadership. I think women run companies are just different. I think there's things that we think about, there's things that we care about, there's ways that we lead teams that are just different. And I, I want to also advocate for this empathy driven leadership. Even for men to say it's okay to be vulnerable, it's okay to show up as your full self. It's. It's okay. These are the things that we, we should be thinking about. Right. So I, I'm doing a lot of interviews, publications.

Podcast, just talking about it. I really feel like you can't normalize something unless you talk about it. So here we are.

Here we are.

Yeah, here we are.

Well, I think, you know, it's so, it's so interesting. You know, it's a little sage, sagey more version of our conversation. Right. Because.

This is such the, the sage's journey for you, right. As you continue to gather more.

Knowledge, literal knowledge and intellectual property. But it's all really coming from wisdom. It's. It's a deep knowing that you have that is.

Beckoning you.

To speak. And you know, I know that's also been a little bit of your story is to be seen and to have this voice. And so it's so fascinating. It's also almost makes me want to cry. Same like you, you had to have the thing that you could feel this powerfully strong about and passionate about, to move outside of your own story about yourself and see how this experience, while so painful, has now become.

Like, so powerful for so many people who needed an advocate. And I think a lot of people who deeply feel pet grief.

Don'T know that they even needed the advocacy for it. Do you know what I mean? Because I do think it's just the thing we tuck in.

Yeah. You feel like, I just. I'm supposed to go to work tomorrow. I'm supposed to be there. Uncomfortable to talk about. Yeah. Or even if you. If you have. If you have pet grief and you're talking to somebody with human kids, you almost feel like you have to ask. Ask permission to say it hurts this much. I know it's not a human kid, but for me, hurts, right? But yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I. I will always remember my very first Hawaii trip with you years ago.

I did struggle a lot with. Is my voice really the one that needs to be heard? Who am I to be the one out speaking? I was brave enough to start a company and do these things, but it was behind the organization, it was behind the medications that we were launching. And you pushed and you kept pushing to say, like, there you have a knowing within you and you just have to figure out what it is that you want to say to the world. And I think through the Sage program, it's even taking it beyond. Like, we were no longer just talking about directory and the things going on at work, but it's like, what are your dreams? What do you want to be doing? What do you want to be focusing on? I'm so grateful it all happened the way that it did, because I don't know if I would have gotten there last year, like, maybe I would have written the book and it would have just been a manuscript that just got saved in a folder somewhere. But because of all of the work we've done, I felt confident enough to just say I'm doing this. And if it's not, it's not. If it's not for everyone, that's okay. Because for the people that it is for, I'm going to help them. And that matters.

Yeah. And no, it's. It's a. It's a change movement that will impact. There will be. There is already there's impact. Right. And I think you're. It's a. It's just a great example for all of us who are listening that.

We all have.

A wisdom that's Different. Wisdom is different than intellect and knowledge. And we know that it's wisdom because it whispers over and over and over and over. It's very relentless. And that doesn't mean it's a book, and it doesn't mean you become some person who's on TV or all the things. It just means that that is something you. You were given. And I don't know what that even means. Listen, all I know is it's true. And I've seen it too many times over and over and over again. When women allow it, when they create space to hear it. Right? And then it's so gorgeous. Like, what a gorgeous legacy. If you did nothing else ever in your life, you're so young. Like, there's so much more to do.

And now I'm excited, right, for all of the things where before it was, I was playing small and. And who am I? But now I just feel having the space to think about it and even being prompted with the questions to dream and also being reminded that it is already inside of you. The magic is already there. Just. Do you have the courage to see it? And then once you see it, it's really hard to, you know, you can't let it go. Now it's.

Stop smooshing it and then look at what happens. Right. Like, it's beautiful.

Yeah.

And we do have to create. I read this somewhere, or someone said it to me, that we have to really be willing to create our magic, our art, our.

Expression, whatever that is that you write, if you write, if you paint, if you sing, if you. If you speak, if you think. Like, whatever it is that you do, we have to do it for ourselves first.

Yeah.

Without the consideration of the judgment of everybody else. Because then we'll never really plant and step into the magic that it needs to be.

Oh, my God. All of that.

All of that. I think that's what's so true about that book that you wrote, is that you wrote it. Just. You didn't write it with, like, I'm gonna be on podcasts and talk about it. That was not what you were doing. You were just doing it to move. Let it move through you. And. And that is when we come out on the other side. And now. Right. You have stepped into a level of your sage presence. Right. A sage is well known. Right. For something.

Right.

She has a. There's a knowing about her, but she always knows. There's more to know.

Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

And your point around.

Yeah, sorry.

I was going to say to you what you said earlier, of doesn't have to be a book. It doesn't have to be on podcasts. It doesn't have to be on the news. I think for me, even just having the decision to not have kids, I had friends to look to that also don't have kids. Or if you choose, I'm not getting married, or whatever it is that you decide you want to do by having the sage. Wisdom. Wisdom to say, I'm doing this for me and I have the courage to just move it forward or an inspiration, an example for other people of they can live their own authentic life moving forward. It doesn't have to be all of these other things. That alone is powerful because of the ripple effect.

Yeah. And I think especially for women, you know, and we're in a really interesting time right now, and I'm worried. I say this on a lot of my podcasts. I'm very concerned. And I just want to, all of us as women, to whatever. Whatever that place is that you sit like advocacy for other women, supporting space where other women are growing. Women do build and lead companies differently.

That's why this podcast is called Leadership Is Feminine.

Right.

But. And also, we also know, statistically speaking, we tend to perform better. Women, Women run companies actually get better results. And that is because we bring humanity into our culture. And so this is the time where all of us need to be rallying around one another and finding ways to help advance each other's voices in whatever way we can. Because we have. We have gotten to a place where we now have presence and voice, and we cannot lose that at all, ever. So, yes, my little.

We need the reminder especially. Yeah.

So that's why I'm doing right. This whole series is to feature all of the clients that I've worked with who have written books and had. Have published thoughts in the world. Because my frustration has been when you go into the airport bookstore or even on Audible, everybody, all these books are written by men. Like, let's get busy. And I know I got chastised too. So I have another book coming out which is coming soon.

So anyway, excited.

It's very short, but it's good. Anyway, I'm excited about it. Okay, so I know you have a couple of places people can go. Yes, you've got your fun Instagram. So tell us about that.

Yes. Instagram is Erica with a K underscore sinner. And it is sinner. I post lots of things on there. And I let everyone into my life and then Also pets or family.info so that's where the change.org petition is. I have the resources on my book in a PDF format. And then you can also order the book. I would, you know, I get a notification for every order or every sign of my newsletter.

And it's like, it's amazing.

I like, squeal every time my phone goes off.

Yeah. One of our clients, right. One of our other sage clients, she bought the book for her entire team.

She cried that day. That was like ugly cry day.

It was so cute. And she implemented a pet bereavement. Or did she already have one? But she's a big.

She put one in.

Yeah.

She has a real.

She has three or four or 12 dogs. I know she has a lot of them. Yeah.

And for her, it was. She was. She would have let her employees off for that time, but it just wasn't in the policy.

And.

And it was just an aha moment to say, like, oh, we can make this clear. Yeah, yeah.

Well, you know, when it is your company allegedly whatever the f you want. Right? Yeah. Yeah, I can have a pet bereavement policy. I could have. I could have. I could do whatever I want.

Yeah. We have paternity leave now.

Pod Serenity.

I mean, it's only a day, but still, I like those little babies come in with their shark teeth and you need. You need a day with the chaos.

Oh, my gosh. And more than that, the puppy. And that's what I feel like I'm is coming again. And I work from home, so I'm like, I'm is coming again and I work from home, so I'm puppy parent for sure. Yeah. But I'll figure that out. So. Okay, so thank you for sharing your work and thank you for just being who you are and how you keep.

Stepping in again. You keep just like, you're like, wait, I need a minute.

And I also think that's really great. And if you follow Erica's Instagram, you'll see like, she. You're doing like you. You've. You've changed your title right. To Chief Empathic officer.

The officer. Yeah.

And teaching sort of how to hold space for yourself, how to hold boundaries on days that you really can't take any more in and how to respond to people when that is true. I think there's. There's a lot of beautiful things that you're posting out there. So for those of you who. Who are interested, I would certainly suggest you find Erica and follow her and buy her book and give it to a friend.

I say thank you, Chris. Thank you. For helping me find my voice. I know I found it, but thank you for helping me get found it.

You just had to believe it was in there, that's all.

Yeah.

Yeah. All right, love. Thank you for being here. Appreciate you.