Lessons from 30 Years of Product Launch Mastery with Jeff & Dan Walker

When we bring community into what we do, we're offering people the chance to not be alone in their work. So if you're anything like most of the people that we help and that we serve, they might be the only entrepreneur they know. And it's a lonely world. And that's where being able to offer someone a community, in that case, a group of like minded people who get it, that's huge.

I'm really excited to welcome Jeff and Dan Walker to the stage in just a minute. I read Jeff, Jeff's book many, many years ago, the product launch Formula, and it's changed my life. I've literally crafted so much of what I do in my business and work as a creator and in the creator economy based on the work of Jeff. So excited to have them. Today we're going to be talking about the lessons of 30 years from the launch master. So welcome Jeff and Dan to the stage. What's up, gentlemen? How are you?

Good, good. How are you?

Hey, man.

Good, good, good. Well, I, I have known you, Jeff, specifically for a long time. I, I first learned about you and I was working for a guy named Donald Miller at storybrand very early on and I basically like consumed product launch formula in the early days and I've now probably made 50 to 60 million dollars for myself and other creators based on the stuff that you've taught.

Wow.

And so everything that I do, I think has like seeping in of Jeff Walker product launch formula into it. So I am very excited about this conversation today because the world has changed so much and also nothing has changed all at the same time. So for those who don't know you as well as I know you from your own voice and lips, like, tell us what we should know about Jeff Walker.

That I had the most humble beginnings in my business that you could imagine. I was a stay at home dad. My wife was supporting the family. I launched my business out of desperation. I spent about eight years in growing a business online, teaching people about the stock market. And then when that business suddenly ended, I, by that point, I, this is 2005 now. I had developed a methodology for launching and gotten some expertise. I started teaching people that in 2005 and it's been a crazy ride since then. My students and clients, you know, they're well over a billion dollars in results. I mean, I, that's not even counting your 50 or 60 million, Darrell.

One billion and fifty million.

I, I didn't know about that one, but yeah. So I've been able to build some communities, I think I hope we get to talk about communities a little bit because that, that is sort of a hidden superpower I consider a superpower of mine. But you know, I've product launch formula came out in 2005. At that point it was a bunch of discs, CDs and DVDs and books that we shipped out. And then in 2008 it became an online course. And I've been iterating it and revising it and revamping it and making it better and adapting it to the latest technology. So it's now, I'm pretty sure no one's ever disputed this. It's the longest running, continuously updated training there is in the world on online entrepreneurship. Yeah, so that's sort of it. I came out with that book that you showed in 2014. Here's the new version. Daryl, if you. I'll have to get your address and I'll send you a sign.

Got this one? I use this one all the time.

Well, you know, I'll send you a signed copy of this of the newer version. You know, became a number one New York Times bestseller. It's been a crazy ride. And you know, along that way Dan started working with me. It was actually in 2010 and you know, when I, when I started out, like I said, it was the most humble beginnings. I didn't have any, any team whatsoever for years and until, oh my gosh, almost a decade it was just my wife and I and then started to grow a team and gradually grew a team, grew a team. Dan joined in 2010 and has worked his way up to be our number one person building our launches and planning our launches and is soon to eclipse me if he hasn't already in his expertise. And then just finally we switched our whole business over to Mighty. That's why I'm very excited here. I forget how many. I think it's been three or four years now. We've been on Mighty and we've gradually shifted. First our community and then our high end coaching program and then our, and now the entire, you know, our course. Everything has moved over to mitei and it's been amazing.

Amazing. And Dan, I know that you, you've been studying copywriting and marketing for a long, long time and honestly like how, what a great blessing to learn from, from somebody like your dad. Tell me a little bit about your background and kind of how you got started and now the role you're playing a little bit more in the business too.

Oh my goodness. Yeah, A blessing indeed. For sure. I think that, honestly I think Copywriting has shaped a lot of who I am. Like, I think, you know, back when I was, what was it, I must have been high school maybe, maybe even earlier, I think, you know, like, I'd have kind of the normal chores and, like, they kind of had some, like, optional chores they could do to, you know, earn a little bit of side money, you know. And, you know, I remember actually going back before, I think, elementary school. It was like entering leads into a spreadsheet for like a cent a lead or something like that. And then like middle school, it became like, all right, if you read, you know, one of Gary Halbert's letters. So if you don't know who Gary Halbert is, just absolutely legendary copywriter. And most of his stuff is available. All his daily letters are available just for free online. And so I would just, like, read one of those letters and kind of submit a report, if you will. Kind of like, here's what he did and here's what he was trying to do and the goal and how he got about to it and what he did in that letter. And that got me like five bucks or something like that. But I just thought it was super interesting. I mean, copy is the way that we express ourselves out into the world to the people who don't know us in our business. And I just think that's such a fascinating thing to be able to shape so intentionally. Yeah. Studying copywriting for a long time in college, I originally started because Jeff had the vision of, like, you know what? Hey, this thing called video is going to be this big thing. Video is going to be everywhere online. Like, so he asked, like, hey, you want to learn how to work a camera and shoot the latest version of product line formula? That's going to come out soon. And I was like, sure, that sounds better than working at Subway. Discovered I really liked cameras. Discovered I really like storytelling. I really found a niche for myself, applying my copywriting knowledge to video production. And so I, you know, joined in, joined the team, shot that version of product launch formula. But back then, it was, no one's putting out regular videos, right? Like, video production was a massive task. YouTube was still pretty new. So it was something where I was only doing stuff with, you know, with Jeff and his business every now and again. And so on the side, I grew a whole video production business where I basically did, you know, script writing, video production, all for all, kind of for entrepreneurs, all for this world, and primarily for launches and membership sites and book launches and things like that. Live events like this one, if it were to be an in person event and grew quite the little business for myself there, helping produce launches behind the scenes, both with Jeff and a lot of other big names in the industry. And then, you know, around, around 2019 time, 2020, coming into the pandemic there, you know, I kind of went all in, all in here, came back, started working full time back with Internet Alchemy with Jeff, and took more of a front stage role with planning our launches.

It's amazing. What I think is so fun about this conversation is there's really three things we can get a little bit meta. Because, Jeff, you said something about launching your business out of desperation and I want to start there in just a second because I think there's many people who probably feel similarly right now. They're sitting at their kitchen table or in their guest room of their house stating like, Jeff, you don't understand how desperate I am. I want to tap back into that moment way back then, starting their business. So you actually started a business, but now you've consulted a ton of businesses and a billion dollars of earnings from your clients is insane. And so I want to talk about what has not changed in 30 years and what has changed. And then we can land on community being part of that and recurring revenue and community and that being a big part of the world now that maybe wasn't even a part of the conversation 10, 15 years ago. So take us back to that launching out of desperation, because that feels like. So I felt visceral when you said that. It was like, oh, so many people are there. So many people are like, I'm trying so hard. I feel so desperate. I feel trapped at what I'm doing. I, I want to do that and I want to, I want to go 25, 30 years into the future and look back and be like, yeah, I was there too, but now I built something. But talk to me about that time in your life and what that desperation felt like and kind of how it all got started.

Well, Darrell, I use that word intentionally because I know, well, we attract into our world, into our business. It's amazing. For those who are just starting out, this is who the people we end up attracting are. A mirror of ourselves. And I know a lot of the people that I track into my world right now are people that just want to. They're service oriented, they just want to change the world. They've got some work and they want to help people and that is like their primary motivator, more than money. And I honor that and I love those people. And I also want to speak to the people because we can get caught up in that, because social media can show so much of that, and because people can sort of be grandstanding with, like, I'm just, you know, I'm not about the money. I'm just about helping people. But the reality is that there's an awful lot of people that just need to make some money. And it's not. It's not to say they aren't helping people, they're not putting out great products, but they. They need to make some money. And I can remember that. So that's where I was, is I failed in the corporate world. I. I had a corporate career, and I was not good at it, and I escaped it. I quit just before they would have fired me, probably the next week. And then I was. My wife was supporting the family. She had a good job, but she was supporting the family. And, you know, when. With Dan being on here, it's a little odd because I don't want to talk about when he was a baby, but he was literally a year old when I left the corporate world. And then a few years later, we had my daughter as well. And then we had two kids, and we had four. Four of us on my wife's income, and we had a roof over our heads and we had food on the table, but that was about all we had. And. And at one point, my wife Mary, who's just been an amazing support throughout my entire life and throughout this entire business, she came to me and said, is there some way you can figure out a way to make an extra $10,000 in a year? And she would. You know, we're just. It's just. It feels like we're just hanging by. By an. By a threat. And so that became my mission. And at that point, this is the mid-90s, and back then, you know, dudes didn't, like, stay at home to take care of their kids. So I committed career suicide. But this online thing was starting to happen, and. And I was really. My goal was to be a stock market trader just to trade the markets and be able to support us, but we had no money to start trading. And I had studied the market intensely, and I had a mentor who had. Who was trading for a living. And so I started to build this small email list. And it's. It's a crazy long story. I actually started building that email list because I wanted to use it to try to get into. Back into college, back into graduate school, to get another degree, to go back to the Corporate world. So it was this crazy story. But at some point it was like I built up that small list and I said, you know, maybe they'll buy some, they're getting a free newsletter from me. Maybe, maybe they'll actually buy something from me. And I was, I was, you know, scared to, I'd never done any sales before, never done any marketing before. And this is the one thing that was seeming to happen in my life. I had maybe 600 people that were getting this email newsletter for me. And all of a sudden I was not just a stay at home dad. I was like a stay at home dad who also had. At least some people were paying attention to me in my free newsletter. And I was worried that they would not love me anymore or not like me anymore if I asked them for money. But there was that desperation to make some money to change our lives. So I, I, I thought, how can I, how can I do this? And so I just upped the level of, of giving to them, of, of free stuff. And I romanced them. And then I had that romance lead into this offer. And then I made this offer and that was the first launch that was in January of 97. And I can still, I sent out an email and said, hey, if I've got this new thing coming and if you want to print this out and send me a check. Because taking online payments then was just like rocket science. And I couldn't do it. I couldn't even afford a domain name. And I was publishing on my, on a free website that I got from my, my service, my Internet service provider we used to call them. And amazingly enough, a few people bought from me. And I remember that first order when it came in, I was just flabbergasted that like, that someone was going to give me money for something I created. Because at that point in my life, I'd only had jobs and no one, I had never had someone give me money for something I created. And I'll tell you what, when that switch flips, when you realize that you can create value in the world and you can figure out how to communicate that value to other people, to strangers, and then have them give you money that once, that, that, that switch flips for me at least, there's no going back. It's like, I did this once, I can do it again and again and again. And that first launch was one $650. And everyone's got a different frame of reference for money. But at that point, if I could have done a backflip, I would have done 10 backflips. I was just. Because I was like, I did this once, I can do it again and again and again and I might even get better at it. And here we are.

And what I love about that, that was in the 90s when like the mechanisms of selling things online was very new. But all of what you're saying, you're echoing four or five other sessions of hey, business exists to solve problem for people. And that's the core that's never changed and is never going to change is it's like a value exchange. And so I love that like so much of how you are selling now is different. There's fancy tools like mighty networks and you're doing it in the format of a community. Back then it was a free website from your ISP and it was a whole new world. I'm sure that the computers are a little bit more fancy, the cameras are a little bit more fancy, Everything's a little bit more fancy than it used to be.

There was not a picture of me online. There was zero pictures of me online for the first 10 years of my business. Because putting a picture online was hard. That was like advanced technology. Sorry to interrupt.

You'd have to like get a scanner, you'd have to like take an actual picture, go to the, like develop it and then scan it into the Internet. And yeah, nuts. Yeah, yeah, yep. So for those who aren't like really familiar with the formula and obviously it's a book, it's a massive course, we're not going to cover all of it in a little bit, but give us just like the brief principles of the product launch formula just so people have an idea of like, okay, you've learned by doing it and starting this business in desperation and you've helped a lot of people do it too. Like, give us the core tenets of, of plf.

Well, the core tenets I like to talk about are story and sequences and triggers and, and first of all, stories are so compelling. You mentioned Don Miller and his amazing business and I'm actually going, I'll be at Albe House in four or five weeks from now.

Amazing.

Yeah, it'll be awesome. So stories are the way we teach, the way we communicate, the way we pull people into our world. And then a launch is sequences and there's a pre launch sequence where you deliver value ahead of the launch. We like to say it's that we deliver value before reveal. So the value before you reveal what the offer is. And, and so what we've over the Years. Designed, codified, developed. And I've done this in concert really with all with my progress formula owners. You know, in the early days it was so crude. And by teaching this and teaching it and teaching it, you get better through teaching. But also our students, we have brilliant students who then echo back to us and bring their, their, their developments to us. And so we have a sequence, it's usually three pieces of what we call pre launch content. And they'll lead people. At the end of the day we're all, as you said, Daryl, we're, we're solving problems. We're either, we're either taking away pain or we're delivering more pleasure. I like to boil it down to that. And so whether you're teaching someone a second language or you're teaching them how to meditate, or you're teaching them how to find the love of their lives or to quit smoking, that there is an opportunity. And an opportunity is to speak that second language, to be able to quit smoking, to have that relationship. So at first you have to give people that hope, show them that hope, show them the opportunity their life can actually change. And then you take them into showing the transformation and what their life would, how, how their life would transform. Because speaking a second language is like not what people are after. They're after being able to walk through Paris and actually communicate with, with the natives there, right? And then, and then the next piece is having them take ownership of who they are going to become when they have quit smoking. You know, when they've have that meditation practice. And then finally you take them into another sequence. So that's the pre launch sequence. And then the next sequence is what we call the open cart sequence. The pre launch happens all before anyone can put a credit card in. And then once you get into the open cart phase, that's where you actually start taking orders. And that's all about enrollment. Getting them to enroll in that future self, but also getting them to enroll with you and give you their money. So you take them through this sequence, you build this relationship, you build this, this connection with people. You use these mental triggers through the entire way. Triggers like like community is a, is a huge trigger that I love. Like, like social proof. Like, like, like what am I looking for, Dan? I'm blanking.

Or authority.

Authority. Because you have to develop your authority before you, before anyone actually pays attention to you. They have to understand that you're someone they should pay attention to. Like reciprocity. Once you give something to someone, they feel an obligation to give back. To you. So in that pre launch, you're delivering real value. And so there's many different mechanisms for, for, for delivering that pre launch content. You know, in the early days it was email, then it was email and blogs, then it was social media, social media, Then it was really ugly screencap video, then it was talking head video, then it was beautiful cinematic video, then it's podcast. And then now you can use a tool like Mighty.

That's great, Dan. I want to, I want to lean into copywriting here and storytelling because I think that's such an important part of it. Like the formula exists. And by the way, I followed the formula at this point hundreds of times, so I know that it works because I've literally just done it. But like, the formula is only as good as your ability to connect to people. And the way that we're connecting to people is like storytelling and copywriting. So what are like some of the core principles you think about when you think about copywriting and storytelling and really connecting to people through this formula? Because again, this formula could feel really sterile. If you're just like following the formula, it's really like understanding people and connecting to people. And how do you think about that from a copy standpoint?

Yeah, that's a great question. And this is an area where I think it. People can easily reduce the formula down to like you said, something that becomes a little, I don't know, what was the word you said there?

Sterile or formula? It's like, I think of like a room with fluorescent lights. It's like kind of boring.

Right, right. And you know, one thing that, one thing that I always like to say is it's, it's about the sequence, it's not about the format. Like, so many people look at a launch, like they might look at a launch that we do, they might look at a lot of launches that say some of our PLF owners put on and they see, well, they put out three videos that teach something in some respect and then they make a sales video and they made a whole bunch of sales. And while that's oftentimes of kind of the classic plf, at this point, that's what a lot of people associate as being a launch. What it really comes down to is that story that you tell and it is that sequence that you tell. And this is something that you can use. I'm sure that you've experimented with a couple different formats. Like it could be during three videos, four videos, it could all be in one video, it could all be within emails, it could be on a live broadcast, it could be at a live in person event. It really comes down to that sequence. So how we teach it, we teach it as the otoe. So the very first thing you're doing is you're expressing the opportunity. That's that first O. So the opportunity is the opportunity for your perfect clients, your avatars. It's the opportunity for their dream to become real. Because if they're, if they're searching out somebody, and most of what we, most of what our, our clients have is say information businesses or coaching businesses or things like that. Just to preface it, you can do this with say a physical product or all kinds of other things too. But I'll just use kind of a classic information sort of products. Like if people are learning, say how to play guitar, for example, like they're not just looking for, you know, how to what, what chords to play and you know, when to pluck the strings. They want to be the person who can sit down and play a song for their friends at the next time. They have, you know, they have a gathering going on or something like that. You know, they have a dream, they have something that they're trying to achieve, whether they're moving, like Jess said, moving towards pleasure or moving away pain. So like the first thing that you talk about is the opportunity. It's the fact like, yes, your dream can become real. And I know that because either I've done it personally or because I've taught other people and they've done it personally. So you first bring in that opportunity, you show them like, yeah, it can actually happen. The next part is transformation. And the transformation, when we say transformation, we mean the transformation that your avatar, your perfect client undergoes as they, as they start moving towards that dream. So this is where you start to actually teach. This is where you kind of, I think of it as equipping them with the tools to make their dream real. So it's like, yeah, you actually can play guitar and you can do it within two weeks or whatever amount of time. I don't play guitars. I don't know how realistic that is. But within this amount of time you can get there. And I'm going to show you some, I'm going to show you the basic steps and you're going to learn it in just 30 minutes and you'll be on your way. So then you teach them, you start to equip them with the tools. You start to get them to believe that they can actually achieve that opportunity. Not just that you've done it, but that they can do it, too. And then we go into what we call the ownership experience, which is where they start to really, like, embody that. They start to really feel like, yes, if they move from I think I can do it to I will do it. And really importantly, I think one really important thing with a launch is that up until this point, up until the point of the sale, or up until the point where you actually asked for a sale, you're really speaking to people like, they're going to do it themselves. So it really just draws people in, right? Because you're not just coming out and being like, you can play guitar as long as you give me $400 and buy this thing. And then suddenly, you know, their BSO meter just goes like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Just gets absolutely pegged and. And they click away or they go to someone else's page, you know. But if you're speaking to them like, hey, I'm just. I'm just a helpful mentor, you know, that's usually the approach we take. I'm just a helpful mentor. I'm here to help you. I'm here to guide you through this process. And you guide them as far as. Usually as far as is realistic in kind of a free format. But by that point, people see, hey, I can. This opportunity does exist, and I really do think I can get there. I've already learned how to play this really simple pattern. I can see how I could continue to learn how I could be that person soon. And then there's that bit of that, like, dark, murky void though, right? Where then they're like, okay, but, like, now this is starting to feel a little more complicated, right? As you learn anything, you start to realize it's a little more complicated than you might have initially thought. And that's the point in which you offer to be their guide. And that's the point where you actually make your offer and say, hey, I have a pro, a coaching program. I have a course, I have a live event, I have a. Whatever this is. But throughout that whole thing, you're really keeping that. That opportunity front and center. I think that's where that. That messaging and that sequence, like, really pulls everything together throughout. You know, you're not selling, you're guiding.

I think that that is a perfect segue into what's coming up for me now, which is there's a lot of people who are afraid of selling, and they're afraid of selling for really, really good reasons, which is, like, I have seen people use formulas like this before. To manipulate, to take advantage of, to like, try to get me to buy something that I don't want or need. And I'm like, dang it, I got caught again in this thing and I don't actually need it. This is, isn't actually helping me. And so a lot of people, like, they kind of like start putting all this stuff off at hands, hands or arm's length because they are so afraid of becoming that person. Right. And so one of the themes of this entire summit so far is that empathy is a superpower. So what are your thoughts for people who are like, super afraid of becoming that like, infomercial or that used car salesman or whatever else? Like, how did the good guys use this formula to actually help people and to actually solve problems? And then what role does empathy play in this whole process for folks?

I think both of us are going to have different answers on this. And I think this is something we could do like a three hour show on. Because first of all, there are so many people that are afraid of selling and I was one of them. And it took me years to really figure this out. And you know, first of all, how do, how do you not. So I had this exact converse conversation with Mark Devine, who was like a SEAL commander, a Navy SEAL commander. And he was just coming into this world and he was becoming an author and a speaker and he's like, how do I, how do I do this without being creepy, without being manipulative? And I'm like, you do it by not being creepy and not being manipulative. I mean, it's that simple. If, if you're asking this question for all the viewers out there, if you're asking, I, I don't want to manipulate people. I don't want to be creepy. I don't want to be that use car. If you're asking that question, hooray you, because you are not going to become that person.

Right?

So that, at the basic level, that's the answer to that question. There are so many people that come into, into my world that are like, they're, they're therapists or they're, they're in some type of healing profession. They, they, they just came to their profession out of service and they, they, it's almost like they, it's like they, they took a vow of poverty. You know, I'm an artist. I, I, you know, I sell art or I, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm supposed to be the starving artist. No, you're not. And you know, or if You're a therapist. You just got into it to help people. A counselor. You just got into it to help people. And it's not about making money. Well, what's that saying? It's hard to give from an empty cupboard or an empty shelf. And the best way you can help people is by, by building a business. And businesses need to be profitable. And to be profitable, you need to make sales. You know, Barry Baumgartner, a good friend of mine for many, many years, says that sales is service. And like, one of the ways, like this is something that Dan helped me conceptualize. It's like, like if I could, like right now, I said, darrell, you know what, instead of doing this interview, let's give people, you know, a three year Harvard mba starting right now. We're going to stay on for the next like 48 hours and we're going to give people an MBA right here. How many people would say, yeah, I'm on for 48 hours? Some people might say they would, but really they're, they're, they're not invested enough.

Right?

They're not in. You have to, you have to get people to invest in themselves, to enroll in themselves before you can take them all the way to the finish line or else they're just not gonna follow through. So, yeah, I'm gonna shut up and let Dan talk because he can talk about this for a long time. But sales is service and show up and serve your people. And you can serve. That's what the pre launch does. We give people like in our pre, we're, we're about a month and a half out. We do once a year we do a big launch for product launch formula. It's very meta like you said, Daryl. And when we do it, my goal is over a span of about 7 to 10 days to give people the, the second best training in the world. And, and doing a launch, that's my goal. The best is if you buy from me, but spend those seven or 10 days and we're going to deliver amazing value to you whether you buy or not. And you know this, the world we're in is a world where we can afford to deliver great value. And then, and in doing that, it will bring, bring great value to us.

Yeah, Dan, before you go, I want to double click on that. That idea is like, well, are you creepy? Are you a used car salesman? Are you that person? Like, how are you all of a sudden going to become something that you're not? It's like, and Nikki just said this in the last section it's like, it takes a lot less energy just being yourself than trying to play a character of somebody else. It's like if you're not that person, then you can't automatically or magically become that person. And so I think that the formula is neutral in that way. It's like, this isn't like going to turn you into something that you're not along the way. And I love double tapping on that. Jeff. So, Dan, what are your thoughts here?

Yeah, and, you know, I'll say. I say every now and again we see people come in. I think this, this used to happen more. I think maybe this is one of the, the better things that have come out of social media and people being used to watching people share a little bit more. But, you know, we've seen people come in and they do sort of like they automatically assume almost a little bit that I have to be like that salesman and I have to talk in the royal we. And, you know, I have to say, like, we have developed this thing and it's like, bro, who's we? It's just you, like, but I. And actually, when we find people try to do that, which is almost always just out of something that they feel like that's what they need to do in order to make sales, it works worse, right? It works better if you're authentic. It works better if you're sharing your own experience and connecting with other people who are like you. Because, I mean, realistically, whatever you're offering, whatever you're teaching, you're not going to be the only person doing it. So you're not necessarily grabbing the entire market. You're not grabbing every single person who ever wants to learn the thing. You're going to be grabbing the people who connect with you, who want to have a journey similar to yours, who identify with you and see themselves in you. And by the way, I think one of the most powerful marketing stories and copies writing stories you can tell is I think I'm a lot like you. I was in this spot. I really wanted this. And then this is what I did and this is what I achieved. Like, that's, that's what makes people resonate with you. But, you know, I would, I really had the same thought while you're asking the question as Jeff, which is just sales, a service, you know, and I think, like, everyone listening right now, like, can you think of a time in which you had a dream or a goal or something that you really wanted to do, but you found it difficult to do, and you found it Challenging to do by yourself, and you found maybe you didn't make it to the goal or you didn't make it to the goal the first time, Maybe you had someone who helped you and kind of pushed you towards your goal a little bit. Maybe a friend or a coach or a colleague or a relative or a partner. Like, I'm just thinking about it. Like, if. If you got a friend, for example, just. Just pure example, say, a friend who's got a dream to. To run a marathon one day, you know, and they're. They're not a runner, but they're like, you know what? Hey, I really want to get in shape. I really. I've got this dream to be. To be marathon runner. And, like, if every now and again, you check in with your friend and you say, hey, how. How's that going? You know? Like, are you doing them a disservice if you see that your friend, they really want this goal, but they're having trouble making to the gym. They're having trouble going out on runs. If you start calling them and saying, you know, hey, man, you want to. You want to go for a run tomorrow? Like, how about we. How about we just go for a run? And then they say, like, okay, yeah, and they go with you. And now are they closer to their goal because of that? Something that they might not have done without that little bit of pushing, without that little bit of encouragement? Like, is. Is. Is that friend gonna come back if you call them up and say, hey, man, there's a marathon in two months? How about we sign up and we do it together, and I'll be with you every step of the way, and we train together? Is your friend gonna say, what a slimy asshole? No, they're gonna be grateful. They're gonna. Sometimes. Sometimes people need that little bit of a belief, someone else out there who believes in them and who says, you know what? I know you can do this. I know it doesn't feel like you can do this, but I was in the same spot as you, and I was able to train. I was able to run the marathon. Like, I know what it takes. Like, I'm gonna help you. Like, that is service, you know? And if you're. I would say if. If you're selling something, if, like, what you have to sell, what you have to offer, what you have to communicate or speak about or what you want to make your business out of, like, if you know that it can help someone, like, and it doesn't have to help everybody. Like, it's. That's not going to help everybody. But if you think it can help somebody else achieve something and you know that that thing is valuable, then you effectively communicating how powerful it is to achieve that transformation. Communicating to them that, yes, that goal is a, it's, it's achievable and B, it's worth the effort. It's worth going for it, worth striving for. Like, that's, that's doing them a service at the end.

There's almost like a moral obligation too. Like if you, like if somebody was drowning and you had a life raft and this is getting pretty extreme, but like, we'll take it to the extreme if somebody's drowning and you have a life raft and you don't give them the life raft, like, that's not awesome. No, that's like a horrible way. It's a horrible way of existing. But if there are people in the world who truly want to have some sort of transformation and you have a way that can help them, there's a little bit of an obligation to do it and to get like. What I love about the formula is it's a framework to get really good at communicating about it. And Dan, you just kind of mentioned that. And I think that's, that's. It is like all we're doing is becoming better communicators about the transformation that somebody can have with whatever it is that we have to offer, whether it's a course or a community or a program or coaching, whatever it is, it's like we're just getting better at communicating about it and the people who win, like, it's not always the best product. It's the people who've learned to communicate it the best. And I think that's such a key thing here. So this is why I love the work that you all do. It's obviously transformed myself as well. But what I'd love to tap into here is like, I remember, I don't know, 10 years ago, five years ago, recurring revenue becoming a really big part of this world where before it was like, you know, maybe one off sales or course sales, and like the mechanism of how all this has transitioned a little bit. You guys have also then moved into a community format for what you're doing here. So talk to me about like some of that transition over the last few years and how you're thinking about business differently in this new world and then how community plays a part of that as well.

So that's a great question. There's a lot there. I have had recurring revenue. I've basically been selling subscriptions. That first launch in 1996 or January 97, that was actually for a subscription product. And I'm approaching 30 years in business here and I think there's about only 18 months maybe where I did not have a recurring revenue part of the business. It just makes life so much easier, so much easier when you know, you, you every month starts and you're not starting from scratch. It's just life is, is just easier and better when you know, you have a certain amount of income coming in. And I think in general it's not too much that, you know, would you rather make a sale and make a one time, you know, sale or make a sale and keep on getting paid? I think can we all agree getting paid continually is better and it's generally not a harder thing. And I think, you know, all of us, almost all of us are selling some type of transformation. Even if you're selling paintings, we're selling some type of transformation. And transformation involves change. It, it involves behavior change. If someone's going to again, create that meditation practice, learn that language, quit smoking, lose weight, what you know, learn to have a better tennis, serve it, require work out, build a new body. It requires behavior change and behavior change is, is, well, it's only hard, well, it can be hard, but only if you're human. It's like, you know, it's just we all have things we'd like to have different in our lives and it's, it's not easy. It's not like that. And so I think that continual support is the way to deliver behavior change over time. And I think one of the best I I one of the best ways to create behavior change for all of us is, is by surrounding yourself that with people that are on that same path, that are on that same journey. And that's what community is. It's surrounding yourself with like minded people who are moving in the same direction that you are. Life is easier when you're surrounded with community and behavior change is easier when you're surrounded by community. And so I think for most of us, for many of us, certain maybe most of us, we're going to be better off if we have a way to continually serve our clients. And I think a membership, a community, many different names for that, but it both makes for a great business model, but it also makes it for a great way to get results for our people.

Yeah, it's so good. Dan, Any, any thoughts there?

Yeah, you know, I'm just thinking like if we're communicating with People online, then what are the chances that that person on the other side of the screen has a real life community around the thing that you're, that you're speaking to them about? Like they might, but there's a really good chance they don't. Like we're talking to entrepreneurs and you know, so everyone on, everyone on here, like how many people in your life, in your just regular day to day life are, have businesses or have followings or trying to build a community? Like how many of the people in your day to day life, you know, can you speak about your, your is, you know, the issues or successes or triumphs that you have with like, you know, if you're anything like most of the people that, that we help and that we serve, they might be the only entrepreneur they know. And it's a lonely world, right? It's lonely when you have to, you know, your, the friends might try to help, but first they have to explain how their business even works beforehand, you know, and it can be just a very lonely sort of experience. And that's where being able to offer someone a community, in that case, being able to offer them like a group of like minded people who get it, who they can come to with their issues and have those people know what they're talking about and identify with it and be like, hey man, I got you. Like, let's jump on the phone, let's talk about it. Or you know, just exchange DMs or like that's huge. You know, like when we bring community into what we do, we're offering people the chance to not be alone in their work. And that's huge on so many levels.

Yeah, that's good.

I mean that phrase, not be alone. I mean, just think about what that means to people. Yeah, it's just unbelievable. We have people in every crazy niche you can imagine. You know, I was thinking we had this guy who was into sword fighting, but like, I forget, some special kind of sword fighting that none of us ever heard of. Right? Carving wooden dolls. Japanese fly fishing. Not fly fishing, Japanese fly fishing. And if that's like your thing and you're geeking out on it, but no one, you know, in your real, in your real world is into that. Right? And being able to, to touch into, reach out to people around the world that are into that thing and not be alone. Incredibly powerful.

Massive.

So powerful. I, I mean.