3 - Navigating the Wards: A Med Student’s View

In every operating room, in every ward, in every clinic, and every team meeting, a silent battle brews. Conflict, negotiation, identity. Welcome to the Scalpel and Sword podcast, where I, Dr. Lee Sharma, physician and conflict analyst, Explore the hidden negotiations beyond modern medicine. Let's trade burnout for boundaries and learn the art of healing with precision and power.

Good evening and welcome to The Scalpel and Sword. I am your host, Dr. Lee Sharma, OB-GYN with a master's degree in conflict resolution. And we're here to talk about conflict. We're here to talk about how it affects us in our medical And I can think of nobody more wonderful to help us talk about how those experiences affect us in the third year of medical school than our current guest, Dr. Natalie Simpkins. Natalie graduated from Opelika High School in 2017. She was in many wonderful programs. She was an athletic trainer for the football team. She played the trumpet in the marching band. She was actively involved in many school activities. She did her undergraduate at the University of Alabama in Birmingham and is about to graduate from the University of South Alabama School of Medicine in senior AOA with a residency placement at the University of Alabama in Huntsville in their primary medicine program. And if you're wondering how I was able to do all of that without looking at a CV, it's because Natalie is my daughter's best friend. Natalie also got married in January. And if you want to know how connected Natalie is to our family, Her husband, the newly anointed Dr. Daniel Meadows, who just got his PhD in chemical engineering, was my son's roommate at Auburn University. So I could not be more fond of Natalie or just her family. And I'm in awe of her and I'm so happy to welcome her to the podcast. Hey, Natalie.

Hi.

That was such a nice introduction.

Wow.

I need you to be my introducer for everything at this point.

I will totally be your hype person. Just call me. Do you need an intro? Yeah, I've got the right person. Give me one second. And she's my hype chick.

So I feel like me and you are both each other's biggest fans. I'm very happy about that. That's amazing. But yeah.

Wow.

Such nice, kind words. Thank you.

Oh my gosh. I'm so glad you're here. And I think it's because I have so many memories of you. And I think that's one of the things that just, if I was going to like legitimately tear up, which I might, so I don't want to talk too much, but like remembering just like meeting you when you were in high school, my first like really clear memory of you is at Davis Butts's birthday party. When all of you guys were over here and we were in the pool and we got in the dojang, and I think you broke a board, as I recall.

Yeah.

Okay. And like, you got so excited about it and it's like, you just need to be here in taekwondo. And that was, I think, where we really— I think I got to know you. And then of course you and Rachel got to be such great friends. And that friendship, I think, has been a blessing for both of you. It's been really cool to watch you guys encourage each other on your paths. But also too, I had the experience of you got to shadow me a little bit. We got to be in the wards. You got to be in the operating room with me a little bit. I feel like one of the things that also has been really cool to watch on your journey is even though I think you've had a lot of medical influences, both of your parents in medicine, you've spent a lot of time following people and shadowing people. I really admire you because I feel like you've made this journey your own. You had a lot of influences and yet you were able to know so strongly for yourself what you wanted. You carved out a path that you really wanted to pursue.

Yeah, I definitely think that as I grew up, I think that certain things became much more of a priority for me in terms of what mattered in medicine to me. So both my parents being nurses, I think that kind of shaped how I see patients and how I saw the broader picture. And then of course, like shadowing you and shadowing a bunch of other doctors and then all the other extracurricular things. In life that kind of just tack onto this like never-ending development of somebody. I feel like it was because I didn't have somebody in like my shoes, for example. I think that no one else in my family had done anything like this. And yeah, I had role models that, but they weren't in my family. And growing up in like rural South and being in a family that's dysfunctional and being able to be like, okay, I'm gonna do me. And then having people cheer me on regardless of them understanding what's happening, I think the biggest My biggest elevator in all this is having people behind me, not necessarily to be like, hey, you should do this, but being like, if I'm like, hey, I think I wanna do this, somebody is behind me like you and being like, okay, do it. Cool. I'll be right there. Like, I remember that once, and this is not really medicine related, but I remember in my first year of medical school where I texted you and I was like, hey, I'm gonna run a half marathon. I've never run in my life. I have not ran since. But I remember you being like, yeah, let's go. Having like people behind me being like, I don't know what the path is forward, but we'll be right here beside you when you do trail it. I think that kind of gave me the courage to be able to carve it out and see what I liked and what I didn't like and being like, it's okay to just sandbox it and see where it goes from there.

And what a great way to approach, not even just like doing different things in school, but like how you're approaching a professional career. What do I like? What floats my boat? And then once you have identified that and identified that priority, I think it makes it easier for you to walk out on it and chase it. And that's going to create just a beautiful career. I also think one of the things that you really did, and I think it's an interesting part of the process, is you really followed a lot of different people in medicine.

Yeah.

And it wasn't even just nurses, doctors. You worked in other jobs in the hospital. And if there's anybody who is able to look at All the different roles that people play in all the different ways that interacts and all the different ways that affects patient care. You've done it. You have seen that. Do you feel like that made you way more prepared walking into third year?

Oh yeah, absolutely. I think so. Prior to medical school, I was a patient care tech in a hospital. I worked night shift on med surg, like in the nitty gritty of it all. I think that if somebody needs like To get some character development, they should try med surg on the night float and see what kind of happens. I think that first instance, even prior to medical school, was like getting used to just touching patients and being okay with that. Because it's crazy because from pre-med to medical school, the first 2 years, you're in the books and you're learning about people and you're learning about the body, but it's a whole nother field to be able to take what you know and then be able to touch a patient, be able to interact with them that you don't seem like a robot. And then come out on the other side and one, have a better relationship with that patient and two, be able to actually have a plan in place as well. So I definitely think like me being able to come into medical school, one, understanding how a little bit of how the healthcare system worked was a big proponent of this. And then two, I was a part of the primary care pathway from my first year of medical school. Those first 2 years for me were a bit different from everybody else in that I had 20 clinic visits in primary care per year. That's something that people don't get unless they're in that pathway. And so we could, me and my friends who were in the primary care pathway, you could tell as soon as the first rotation happened, oh yeah, we can tell who has not touched a patient for real and who is really used to just talking. I think honestly the biggest thing that third years forget is that we're all people. Like we all love to talk. We all love to yap about whatever is facing us. I'm sure that comes no surprise to you that I indeed love to talk.

Yeah.

And I can talk people's ear off. And so me being able to go into somebody's hospital room and they're having probably the worst day of their life, but being able to connect with them is something that was trained in me, but also it just comes from experience and being able to just remember that these people are just people and they're just having a really crappy day and I'm doing my best to make it a little bit better. And coming at it from there, I think that's where a lot of third years maybe forget is we're just people. We're just doing our best. And just go about it like that. You're not, it's for a grade, but it's not for a grade.

That is beautiful. And I love how you say that. Yes, you're there in school and yes, you're trying to get grades, but you keep the people first. And so your why becomes this really strong driver to really hear, but to help this person. We're both humans here and trying to get it done. And I love the fact that you approach that. In the way that you resonate with the patient as a person, yeah. And that is something that I think a lot of people don't get. A lot of times when they first hit the wards, it's just an extension of the classroom. And so I'm just chasing the A baby. I'm just I just want to be AOA. That's all I want. No, that's not really what it's about. If you really wanted to do that, you should go get a PhD. That's not what this is. This is something that's much much different. And you mentioned that when you were Starting the wards, you'd have a lot of experience, but of course you also got to observe other third years who hadn't had the background that you had either just from growing up, but as also in the primary care pathway. Were they also conversely watching you and watching the ease at which you were able to interact with patients?

Yeah. So how it worked for rounds for us was that we have the first few weeks. It's funny cuz like you can definitely tell who is terrified to go on rounds by themselves first and then Like that. So definitely in those first few days, you have to remember, okay, I have to go see my patient by myself and then I have to come up with a plan. And then I talk to the residents and I talk to the attending and then we go on rounds. Then we actually have the full, it's a whole ordeal.

Mm-hmm.

Being able to, if I had, if me and my friends were meeting up like to pre-round together, we would all like meet up in one spot. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna go see this guy. And their patient just so happens to be the next door over. So we're like, okay, we'll just go together and maybe if there's a pathology, then we'll show it. So there's My school was really collaborative. Like we were not gunners. We didn't really do that kind of nonsense. So we like just helped each other out. And I remember like coming in, I am terrible at like pathology and like the physiology of things. Like trying to explain how water goes through a tube is not me, but I can, again, I can just talk to people. So me coming in at 6:00 AM, patients don't wanna be awake, but I'm like, hey Jerry, what's good? Happy. To be a part of the team and like including the patient in the team. Just letting them see that in the same way that they're then gonna show me how to put a dressing on correctly. That is that give and take. I think that in the same way that they're watching me, they watched me like also have to like deal with how that looked in terms of the whole team with the residents. And like, mm-hmm. So depending on the, on the team we were on, like whether or not all the facets of getting to know a patient were gonna actually happen or whatnot.

Mm-hmm.

Like if I was on surgery, probably not, but if I was on internal medicine where rounds take 30 years to get done. Yeah, we'll talk about the patient. So I don't know, that's a very long-winded answer and I hope I did answer that question, but—

No, you totally did. So I love the fact that you recognize that you were in a collaborative medical school, and I've had a lot of friends who've gone to South and had the same experience. They felt like it was a smaller medical school. It was definitely more of that interconnected, we're trying to help each other environment. Not all medical schools are like that. You mentioned the term gunner. In case there are people listening to the podcast that have never heard that term, could you expound on what a gunner is? Yeah.

A gunner is somebody in medicine or medical school and their training who their end goal is to be the best. And that comes at the expense of other people around them. It's typically putting them on a pedestal by also pushing people off their own, or sometimes not even that active. It's more of a passive thing where, hey, I just want the grade, so I'm not gonna tell people what the attending told me to tell people or stuff like that. It's a passive malicious thing, but it's ingrained in medicine, especially in the older generations when it was all about getting a grade. It's a bit waning now, I think, but you'd still have pockets of those people and pockets in medical school.

And I think that's one of the conflicts that medical students run into is when there are clearly gunners in your class. We all knew who the gunners were in my class and in my old bones graduated from UAB in '93, but we had gunners. They all sat together. They all sat in the front row. We all knew who the gunners were. We also had a term in the medical school class called targets, the people who maybe were not the gunners that were really working hard to get through. And it was really very toxic looking back on the fact that we actually had those kind of labels. And it's one of those things that the further you get out from your education, the more you look back and you realize that was really crazy that we did that.

Yeah.

But we had gunners that When we were in gross anatomy, they found a nerve, an ansa subclavius, when they were doing their neck dissection. And it was a pretty dissection apparently. And the professor's, oh yeah, that's definitely going to be on the practical. They didn't tell a soul. And so when we were doing the practical, we got to that and everybody looks like, what the heck is that? And so when we all get done with the practicals, what was on body 26? Does anybody know what that was? Those 6 people got it.

Yeah.

None of the rest of us did. When you are on the wards and you're actually seeing patients and you're trying to work with your fellow medical students, do you ever, or did you ever find that you had gunners that were trying to maybe make that experience more negative for you?

So I wouldn't say that they were like actively antagonizing towards me in any way. I would say there is like a passive try-hardness that exceeds what I think is appropriate for a medical student. I think we're all trying hard for sure. But in my experience, I never had somebody trying to delete my charts or do anything like that.

Right.

But I will say there are a couple folks that I worked with where it was like trying to see 4 or 5 patients when I'm only seeing 2 or 3, trying to come up with a whole list of differentials when the horse is right there. We're not looking for the zebras out in the pasture kind of thing. Even when it comes to if a attending asks the question and they're asking it to me, and then they butt in and try to answer it, that'd be that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

I think the team surrounding can see it. A lot of grading now in the clinical years is the evaluations of your team. And I think a lot of teams see through it nowadays. I think that especially residents that you're working with, they know cuz they're just trying to get their work done and trying to teach you and do all these things and They can tell when something's up and when someone's doing too much.

I think that's such great insight because if you are new to the wards and you have somebody who's doing this, this sort of microaggression where they're trying to be a tryhard and you're not sure how to deal with it, I think one of the things that can really be almost comforting because that's such a stressful time anyway, and then you've got this person who's trying to show you up, is this is about the patient, this is about the team. And if I work hard and I do my job and I help my team, then the people who are in charge of assessing me can see right through this. And that's also something that I think is sometimes really good to know when you're in that situation. The people that are working with you, those attendings that are on rounds with you, they've seen it all.

Yeah.

They know a tryhard when they see one. And so they're not going to ding you if That's something that you find yourself in the crosshairs of. And I think that's a really important piece of awareness because it can be really scary if you don't know that's what's happening and someone's trying to do that to you. Oh my gosh. I think that could be a really— you're already in a stressful experience and someone's adding more stress onto that.

Because I think how medical students are, especially coming off of preclinical years, which is, I just need a good grade, going into the environment where it feels like it's me versus them. When really every single day that you're in the clinical environment, it is you versus you the day before. And are you doing just a bit better? Everyone is going to have their strengths and weaknesses, and everyone is going to feel like everyone else is ahead of them. And I guarantee you, every other person on your team feels the same way. It's never ever really me versus you. It's always me versus me yesterday. And that's kind of the mindset I tell like the younger folks in medical school. It's not about, it's literally, I don't care what Josh is doing. I don't. What I'm excited about is that my notes are taking me 20 minutes to do instead of 30. That's great. Now we've gotta rack them numbers up in residency, but we'll do better as we move. And being okay being uncomfortable, I think is a big aspect, which is no one's happy with being uncomfortable. To be in that state for so long, it can be exhausting. And if you're always wondering how the tryhard is doing, Yeah. It's going to be more exhausting. I guarantee you they're exhausted. They're just not going to show it because they're allergic to that. I don't know. But yeah.

There's so much wisdom in what you just said. Yes, we are fresh out of the classroom, but we've got to get out of that competitive mindset with somebody else. That the greatest competition is, I want to know more than I did yesterday. I want to be better for my patient than I was yesterday. And that being your benchmark and not trying to compare yourself to somebody else. I also really love the fact that the tryhard is probably suffering too, but honestly, we're all in a very similar situation. It's better to be helping each other than trying to hurt each other. And I think that's such a big aha moment. I have a really clear memory of being on my surgery third-year clerkship, and we were in rounds, and the person who was teaching was running up and down the rows, standing us up and asking us questions. And I don't remember what I was being stood up to answer, but I had gotten a couple of questions and the third one I did not know. And I was staring there. It's like I'm trying to find an answer. And the guy next to me literally, and it was, he was so sly, took an index card with the answer and just pushed it forward on the desk so I could see it. And so I could just drop my eyes down and got the answer right. And he was like, okay, good. You can sit down.

Yeah.

And that's, that to me is what the optimal 30-year experience should be.

Yeah, for sure.

It's like, whatever it is that I did not know, not only did I get that answer right, I learned it because whatever was on that card when he asked me that question and I had to look down to get that answer, I was never going to forget it again. That is now burned into your brain. And it's those moments, not necessarily the stuff that you walked in getting all correctly because you think you knew it. It's the stuff that you actually saw. In a patient who actually had to help somebody with that you will never forget. And sometimes it's really good to remember. It's like the biggest learning curve is the experience. It's not always going to be the books at that point. It's going to be the experience. And that experience can be positive depending on who you're with and how you make it. It sounds like you really did a good job. It sounds like people who are around you, and I'm sure contributed to your positive experience, but I'm sure you contributed to theirs as well. Was there ever a time that you felt that you were witnessing conflict, residents, attendings, that you either had to just stand back and walk away from? Is that something that you were exposed to at all?

Oh yeah.

When you were a 3rd year? Yeah.

Oh yeah. I think that's just the nature of the beast when it comes to medicine in general. It's all collaborative, but also at the end of the day, one solution has to be put out there and we have to act on that one thing. So of course stuff's going to get muddled. Schedules are not gonna align. People's ideas and beliefs are gonna conflict. Yeah, that is honestly, I think every single day I saw a conflict of some sort to worry about. I think that sometimes I was in it and sometimes I was out of it and it really depended on the circumstances. Was the breeze blowing east or west? Who knew?

Yep.

I think that, yeah, I definitely saw it. And I will also say there, I say all this stuff from a backwards lens of looking back now, this is how, you know, you should do it. There are definitely days where I was, I sucked. And it was definitely like days where, was I part of the conflict? Yes. But did I feel like I was like instigating? Do I?

No.

Because, uh, cuz we get taught, I guess at South we get taught how do we work in a team.

Right.

I think that helps some, but yeah, medicine's just, it's sticky and it's gross and it's messy and it, people are so different. And I could, I mean, I've literally argued about a plan of, for a patient. For, with a resident and we were arguing about nothing because we actually wanted the same thing to happen. So we were just like, just doing it to do it. So it happens. And yeah, I think it would be naive to think that it won't ever happen, honestly. Yeah.

And which is the whole reason why this podcast exists, because it's gonna. And I think it's interesting because I think one of the things especially that I've seen is that sometimes people like to pretend it doesn't exist. That's not original. What planet are you on? This is everywhere. This is the whole reason why we're talking about it, because we know we're going to confront it. We want to know how to work with it.

I do.

I love the fact that you really saw yourself as being in that collaborative environment. And I know that contributed to resolving a lot of conflict in that. And also one of the things that I love hearing you talk about is this very patient-first mentality, because I feel like when people have that why very clearly locked in, your why is your patient.

Yeah.

Everybody's got the same compass, and you may disagree with about things, and people may have bad days, and someone said something that set you off, and buddy, you're going to have to say something back. But at the end of the day, if everybody has the same focus, which is we want the patient, that can bring a lot of stuff in line.

Yeah.

I also, you said something that I think is really cool, very interesting. And you said at one point you got into a conflict with one of your residents, but basically you were both saying the same thing. You both wanted the same thing, but Was clearly in a space where it sounded like you were having a bit of a disagreement.

Yeah.

Was that something that you found, and it may be a person by person or specialty by specialty, but did you find there were specialties that were maybe not as amenable to you having those conversations with the residents and specialties that were?

Yeah, I, yeah, definitely. There is definitely some specialties that are more hierarchy-driven than most. And I think that non-amenable likeness of conflict kind of comes in. I think that your surgical specialties are always gonna be a bit more hierarchical, but I don't think necessarily that it comes from a point of maliciousness. It's more so just looking back now, surgery, for example, we'll just be crappy to surgery cuz everyone, we always just shovel it on for surgery.

Sorry, surgeons.

Pretty much everyone who's listening.

Yeah.

But love you guys. So yeah, so like for surgery, everything has to be rapid, has to be quick. There is no time to just like Let's think about if we want to close this vein or leave this artery open or stuff like that. Everything has to be rapid and there's a certain way that surgeons talk and that's okay. I think coming from, coming from a background that I have, like, again, I will la-dee-da the whole time. And so that can be jarring for people. And something that I tell all of my younger folks is it's never personal. It never is personal. Like genuinely, these people don't have time to know your name. Half the time, they're not worried about X, Y, and Z that you did. It's not personal. They're just trying to do their work and go home. And I'll even pivot away from surgery. Even OB/GYN, when stuff gets tough in OB/GYN, conflict is easy to have. You're over. So like it's easy for conflict to just seep in because things have to be so rapid, so quickly, and there's no time to check in on people and be like, "Hey." How are you doing? No, that's not happening. And I think that it brings in this level of resilience you need to have when you're in medicine. No one is going to be like sunshine and rainbows kind to you all the time, and that's okay. You don't, honestly, I'd rather you not be. Stuff has to get done.

Yeah.

So it comes from one, if you're the person that's being aggressive and you're like being X, Y, and Z, this needs to be done. There's a way to say it without creating conflict. There's also a way to receive that. And it's by not taking it personally. It's never personal. Even if it is, okay. It's again, it's about the patient. What is best for the patient at this point? And that's how I view it nowadays too, like mindset. Going back to specialties though, those rapid-fire specialties, yes. But even in specialties where it's more about thinking about all the different ways that something can go wrong, like internal medicine, family medicine, there are so many things.

Mm-hmm.

That you can honestly get paralyzed in a thought cycle. And so having to, when everyone's having a tornado of thoughts and there's 4 tornadoes in the room, eventually it's gonna turn into a big cluster and it happens. And again, it's having somebody in the room to pull us all out of that is important. So that's where hierarchy can be great. And it's also in other specialties, hierarchy can be crappy cuz of that as well. It's that gentle balance. Yeah.

Probably one of the greatest pieces of advice that I think you just offered to our rising third years listening to this is to not take it personally. It's not, especially when things are going sideways to the wind and people are running around. Trust me, no, nobody is trying to say anything to you. You are in the midst of the firestorm and you are just trying to get stuff done. And I do agree with you. Again, my dad was a general surgeon, so I feel like I'm allowed to say this. General surgeons are Just the way they are. God bless them.

And I'm glad they are.

We used to, and we're glad they are. They used to say at Parkland where I trained that the worst residents in the building, like in terms of being like the hard people, were the general surgeons and the OB women. The medical students were terrified of us. Now it was a tough program, but I agree with you that at no point in time are you ever, if you are having a day and you are running and there is a medical student there and you say, you do this. That's not me being uncourteous to you. That's me going, I've got to get this done and I need you to do this and we just need to keep our focus. And I think that's really good to know that in certain specialties you're probably going to encounter that. But I love how the tornadoes in the room, we're all— there's 4 tornadoes with 4 different thought processes and somebody's got to be the conductor to say, all right, everybody's got this idea, but this is what we're doing today. There's a final comment. That's the running joke that poop rolls uphill when you're a third-year medical student. You really don't ever have to worry about anything because there's always somebody smarter than you in the building that can tell you this needs to happen. And it does. It just goes up and up and up. But that's okay because I also think as a third-year medical student, that gives you some— I don't want to say license, but it gives you some respite in knowing if I don't know it, that's cool.

Yeah.

I just gotta know to go ask somebody else.

Yes.

And I think as long as you keep that clearly in mind, right?

Yes. My favorite saying that I would say at least 3 times a day in third year was, I don't know. I have no idea. You know? And again, it's okay. As a third year, you're not supposed to. If you did, why are you a third year medical student? So I think that you're exactly right. It's like we do have a kind of a license to just sandbox it, feel it out. Obviously you don't wanna go perform surgery on somebody. But you can't dilly-dally and, okay, what would this kind of plan look like? And what are some things I'm not thinking of? That was another question I asked often was like, I think this is this. However, what am I missing here? Because you're guaranteed to be missing something. And that's, again, that's the nature of third year. But yeah, no, it's, uh, yeah.

I hope you keep that, that one thing that you just said, what am I missing here? If there is one tactic that's going to keep you from anchoring to a diagnosis, not looking at the big picture. It's the idea that I know what this patient has and not considering— it's like, what's in this picture that I haven't considered? I cannot tell you how much that's going to save you in your career. Just that the ability to step back and question yourself about, am I looking at this whole picture? Is there something I haven't considered? Please don't ever lose that because that's power.

Thank you.

That is awesome. Yeah. So, obviously, you had guys that were on your teams, you had male medical students that were running around as well. Do you feel like they had a different experience? Or did you feel like maybe some of those interactions might have been a bit of a challenge in your third year as well?

So, I would say that our experiences are different, for sure. There are definitely times where, whether it's interaction with patients, whether it's interaction with other staff in the medical team, Or even in certain specialties, it's different. Being in the Deep South where there is definitely a blend of how women should act and how men should act, and that doesn't escape medicine either. We're not in this kind of bubble. There are definitely times where in terms of patients, I purposely, instead of saying I'm a medical student, I would say I'm a student physician because every patient is going to think that, oh, because I'm a woman that I'm a nurse. No hate to my nurses. I love them. I do. But I cannot do what nurses do. And in the same way, when it came to certain specialties that were more male dominated than others, there were definitely times where I felt like I needed to speak up more and be more upfront with it.

Mm-hmm.

For example, neurology at South was very male dominated and there were definitely times where maybe I felt like a little not heard or something. But as soon as I dialed it up for a second, it was like, I think we should do this. And again, acting like a man. And I was just like, yes, like X, Y, and Z. Just put it out there. I think that women tend to keep our thoughts to ourselves when we are uncomfortable, and that is a mistake. I think that in any male-dominated thing, there is a certain level of like uncomfortableness that all women will feel. Maybe that's 1%, maybe it's 99%. But there is an element of uncomfortableness that men don't experience when they're in that kind of field. The only time I'd say that's an exception is in OB-GYN. I know that I got a better education on my OB-GYN rotation than every single one of my male peers. Because of where we live and how the world is right now, women don't want men as often as they used to, a part of their reproductive health, whether that is having a male student in the room as they're giving birth, which is a very traumatic event for some women. And having a man in there that already would've made them uncomfortable just makes that worse. And that's not their fault. They can't help that they're a man as much as I can't help that I'm a woman. But I think that there is a give and take throughout medical school of what is something that I'm gonna have to beef up now because I'm a woman, and what are some things that my, my male counterparts are gonna miss out on because they're a man. I will say, all that being said, I think my school Was phenomenal at being very like impartial. Like I, I will sing Sal's praises for that. Not only that, I think my class specifically is 62% female and we have women going into all the different specialties. I think that in a way we're trailblazing, but also too, we've been like, the culture here is, has been built to have like women in leadership. They're like, all of my role models now as like doctors are women, and being able to see what they do and how they interact with the world has shaped me for sure. And I'm sure that men probably feel the same way about their counterparts and their mentors, but I know that I specifically sought out female doctors and female staff members who I thought were exemplary, and I tried to learn from them. My, my go-to, like, I think, I think 2 of my letter writers for residency were like my mentor for family medicine. Dr. Kledger. She's great. She's my like clerkship coordinator, Dr. Holliday, and she was a force. And so being able to see these women in like, even my like health literacy project that I was doing, my mentor was. Dr. Stisher up in Huntsville and having all these women who have done great and cool and great and wild things, being able to be like, yeah, Natalie, go for it. You got this. Having that again, circling all the way back to the beginning, it's all about having those people behind you. And I hope that women in medicine have that community that I was seeking to build in myself. And like, I, that started early with you being like one of the first female mentors that I had. And still do to this day. And I think that as women, it's all about having a tribe. We all have to have that community. We all have to, as much as we should be impartial to the sexes and yada whoop-de-woo, I do think that women are magnificent creatures individually, but we are absolute force to be reckoned with when we're all conglomerated together and build off of each other. And especially medicine, you can see cool things just blossoming from that. And I like to think that I'm a product of that as well.

You are not just a product. You are a leader. You are creating. And the, what I'd really just, I'm in awe, just what you just said. Like that is something I hope every single person who listens to this podcast goes back and listens to that a few more times because that's beyond wisdom. That makes me so proud. I'm so grateful to have been a part of your journey and to see where you're continuing to go. But what you are part of creating and the community you are creating, especially being a woman physician, you're going to help so many people and not just patients. You're going to help a lot of other doctors and a lot of other people in healthcare as well.

Thank you.

I think what you've done, and that's something that also too, I want to comment on this before we close. That you didn't wait till you became a doctor to help people. You started helping people as a college student, as a medical student.

Yeah.

You were already serving people. And I think the ability to learn how to do that, especially when we come up against conflict on a daily basis, which is everywhere in medicine, you never lose your compass. You never lose your why. Your circle of people that you are going to bless is just going to continue to grow. So I really appreciate you being here on the podcast. I'm just, again, I'm in awe of what you are doing and what you have become. How's married life? I know you guys are kind of living apart right now.

Yeah, no, it's great. I like, we just signed a lease on a house in Huntsville. And so it's all getting real now. And yeah, I should have gotten married sooner. But you know what, who was going to, how's that going to work?

You guys have proven as having to be 2 professionals having to be apart, but look what you guys have been able to do. And it's just beautiful. And I have to say, it's like Rachel, I just, so my daughter was the officiant at this wedding and just said it was the most beautiful experience to be part of that. But I think it is just, it's a testament to Your ability to see how you want to structure your life, to see what your goals are, and to just to continue to create a career that's going to really help a lot of people. So I do have one quick favor before I let you go.

Yeah. What's that?

After you finish your intern year, will you come back on the podcast?

Oh, for sure. All you have to do is just text me. I'll come back here. It's fine.

Cool. I love it because I feel like you've had so much wisdom to share, and I think that learning curve is just going to Yeah. Go almost vertical as you hit this year. And I think you're going to have even more wisdom to share with our listeners after finishing this intern year. But I really appreciate you being here. Thank you so much for your time. Um, we're going to put a link in the show notes if people want to find out about your programs, find out about South. I was also going to put some of your publications on there as well so people can chase you down. That way too.

Sounds good.

So thank you so much. Thank you for all our listeners to being part of the Scalpel and Sword tonight. I hope you have a great evening and we will see you next time. Until then, be at peace.

Every episode is an invitation to speak, to negotiate, to choose. I'm Dr. Lee Sharma. Join the dialogue by subscribing to Scalpel and Until next time, peaceful warriors, may your choices be sharp and your voice be even sharper. This podcast is a reflection of lived experience and research in conflict resolution. The Scalpel and Sword is not intended as medical or legal guidance. For personal matters, please consult a qualified professional.