EP23 – When Doctors Need Healing Too: Kim Downey’s Journey from Survivor to Advocate

In every operating room, in every ward, in every clinic, and every team meeting, a silent battle brews. Conflict, negotiation, identity. Welcome to the Scalpel and Sword podcast, where I, Dr. Lee Sharma, physician and conflict analyst, Explore the hidden negotiations behind modern medicine. Let's trade burnout for boundaries and learn the art of healing with precision and power.

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Hello, my peaceful warriors, and welcome to the Scalpel and Sword podcast. I am your host, Dr. Lee Sharma, physician and conflict analyst, and I am so thrilled to have on the podcast today Kim Downey. Kim is the founder of Stand Up 4 Doctors, and the 4 is in parentheses, so we're definitely going to get into that. She is a physical therapist. She is a 3-time cancer survivor and a fierce advocate for physician well-being. She's an ambassador for the Dr. Lorna Breen Heroes Foundation and a community ambassador for Medicine Forward. She brings deep insight into both clinical and the human side of medicine. She amplifies the voices of doctors and patients addressing challenges like burnout, moral injury, and the loss of autonomy. Her mission is to foster connection and advocacy for healthier doctors and a stronger healthcare system. And I'm so excited she's here. Kim, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you very much. I really appreciate this opportunity.

So I read your book, White Coats, Courageous Hearts, and we're definitely going to get into that. But how did you come to this place where you felt so passionately about advocating for physicians and physician well-being, wellness, and trying to get our voices out there?

Sure. Well, to give you like the ultimate Reader's Digest version, and then you can ask more questions if you'd like me to expand Because if you've read the book, you know a little bit yourself. But I was working as a pediatric physical therapist in a local elementary school, and I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer, and I had a complication with that surgery, um, that led to some more complications. And then just when I was resolving some issues after I'd blacked out in the summer, we think low calcium caused a cardiac arrhythmia, and I was recovering from Lyme disease, a concussion, thoracic outlet syndrome, a whiplash injury.

Okay.

And then I was diagnosed with breast cancer. So I had surgery and a month of radiation for that. And then I needed another MRI and I had breast cancer on the other side. So I had surgery and radiation for that. So it ended up being 2 years of constant medical issues. But I kept thinking one more thing and I'll be done. One more thing and I'll get back to my regular life. And I had an incredible radiologist and I know the success of the first surgery was because of his skill and the skill of my surgeon. My 2-year imaging visit. I was looking forward to seeing him again. And when I showed up, he wasn't there. And I asked where he was and they said he died a month ago. And I said, are you joking? Like, I just couldn't process that. And they said, no, of course.

Mm-hmm.

And I asked what happened and they said they didn't know. And in my heart in that moment, I knew he had taken his own life and I fell apart. I went into partial shock. I couldn't stop crying. I couldn't stop shaking. My arms and legs went numb. And basically I felt a calling to support doctors.

Wow.

I can't even imagine, especially someone that you were so connected to clinically, someone that you saw had given his skill. And you talked about in the book how he told you that was one of the most difficult biopsies he'd ever had to do, that, you know, 30 years of practice, he'd never had to do one that hard, but that biopsy is what led to you getting a cure. So this was definitely somebody who was so talented and skilled. And I think that's even more so such a shock that someone who was so connected to your journey as a patient, and all of a sudden you hear this and I can't even imagine what that was like for you, but the fact that you were able to take that and turn that into something that was going to be beneficial for so many physicians, I think is incredible. One of the things that I love that you talk about in the book Is that we are human. And so you got a real, unfortunately, in a shocking way, this big insight into physicians being human. For what reason do you think we're not good? Because we're not, as a professional group, we're not good at embracing our own humanity. We're just not good at that. Why do you think we're not good at that?

Dog had showed up. And these were about 6 months before my doctor died. So when I started reading all the KevinMD articles, and that's when I first heard the statistics, you know, like 400 doctors a year, and I think they're outdated statistics, are taking their own life. And I just thought that was horrible.

Hmm.

So I started reading all the articles and printing some out and saving some to my computer. And then I would reach out to some doctors, like if they wrote a book, You know, on Kevin MD, and I started having conversations. And one of the earlier ones was Dr. Simon Craig. He's an Australian. He wrote a book, From Hurting to Healing: Delivering Love to Medicine and Healthcare. And the things he talked about were all the same issues that the doctors here were talking about in the Kevin MD articles. So I realized that this wasn't just the American healthcare system. I realized just because in his book, he even talks about So a little about the history of medicine. So it appears like around the globe, through the ages, you know, like over time, that it's the culture of medicine. So some of these things are, I don't know if you wanna say bred out of you, like in medical training.

Mm-hmm.

Like the things like to put the patient before yourself and learning how to suppress your own needs, or when there's bullying in medicine, but in order to pass, You know, even your peers might say, don't say anything because they'll blame you as the victim. So you are all obviously very smart individuals. So in some ways you're right, it almost doesn't make sense, but it almost feels like a cult from the things I've learned. And some of it is the culture of medicine needs to change.

Absolutely. I love how you talk about this, that they are creating this culture where we are actually taught to be and perform in this way. And I always tell medical students, there's the reason why the first thing you do is gross anatomy. That's the first thing you do when you walk in the door is you are presented with a cadaver, because that is how they begin to teach you to depersonalize. You know, you have to walk in, you have to look at this body. But the reason why you get shocked with that on your first day is because they really want you to develop this idea that you have to be objective when you care for the patient. And yes, you do, but not at the cost of your own humanity. And I think for the work that you're doing, we're starting to understand as physicians, we can still be effective and we can still work clinically, but we don't have to depersonalize ourselves in that process. And in fact, the depersonalization is not even just hurting us, it's probably hurting our relationship with the patients as well.

Absolutely.

So creating that culture.

Right.

In your personal relationships as well. And also the perfectionism goes along with that, you know, trained that you have to try to be perfect and no one is perfect. And that can be another struggle over time.

And you're so right about that. To get to where we are, to get to medical school, to get to residency, we get this idea of there's a right and a wrong. There's a good way and there's a bad way. And we add that to ourselves as well. We actually incorporate that into our own personalities. One of the things that I loved in the book is one of the stories talks about, as a physician got more awareness of his own tension, that he noticed he was gripping the steering wheel as he was driving and had no idea that he was doing that until he sort of raised that awareness. And there's this beautiful phrase in the book about this process of unwinding that we are sort of Almost like an onion, we are peeling away parts of ourselves that we've built up over time with trauma that we haven't addressed. But I think such a part of that is the idea that we are not good at getting into gray areas. We are not good at doing anything besides right and wrong. Is that something you see a lot in physicians, that they have difficulty sort of embracing that uncertainty?

You know, and like doctors will talk about that they had to always be almost like perfect or the best. Even in high school, like some kids didn't maybe go out for sports because they felt like they had to be checking the boxes to do the extracurriculars, right? And then when they are like, yes, I got into the med school, but then they want to get into the residency. And I think even this is something that If, say, you wanted to be a dermatologist, right? And then you don't match for that. And then we need primary care doctors, right? Well, what if they put you in primary care, but you always wanted to be a dermatologist? So you've already gone to 4 years of college and 4 years of med school. And it just seems the culture of all this is just pushing and pushing. And then even when you get into the residency, if you do match, and then it's to get the best fellowship, right? And then they get the best attending position.

Mm-hmm.

So it's like there isn't so much room for the gray. It's always like pushing to do the next thing and be the best.

You're so right. We always move that bar for ourselves. We're always setting that bar higher. You know, it's not enough to be the best residency or the best medical school. You have to be the best. And even when you're in private practice, are you the person that all the other doctors send their people to? Are you the person who's seeing the other physician's family members? Because People consider that a thing. And because we're always setting that bar so high for ourselves, it's like, where does it stop? When are you going to consider yourself to be good enough? You know, as long as you're setting that as an external metric. And you're right, none of us can ever meet that. We're never going to get to that point. And that's such a big part to me of why we create this culture, this such a demanding, unforgiving environment that we place ourselves in. You had mentioned bullying before, and one of the chapters in White Coats, Courageous Hearts directly talks about bullying and how we create a space where people have no ability to make mistakes, where they have no ability to actually embrace who they are. When physicians are dealing with bullying, and I'm sure that's something that you've had people talk with you about, what kind of advice do you give them to sort of find some space and to find some relief from those situations?

I think it really depends on the situation because what you could say ideally sometimes might sadly not be in the best interest of that person. Like for instance, some people have wonderful residencies and some people have very toxic residencies. And I've spoken with more than one physician and when they were in their residency that was very toxic, they wanted to speak up, but they were told, no, don't, because then you'll be the victim of gaslighting. They'll turn around because they're under a senior resident or an attending who brings in a lot of money for the hospital. They overlook all of that if they bring in a lot of money. So they would rather move you aside, push you aside, and keep the reputation of the doctor who's doing the bullying than directly address the bullying. So what you would want to say is speak up. And sometimes that is the right thing to do, but sometimes if you do speak up again, that it comes back to bite you or to haunt you. So, like, you don't want to keep it to yourself. So discuss it with a safe person, you know, someone who you consider to be a safe person, either within the residency, if it's like a peer, or if you have like a senior resident that you can trust or an attending that you can trust.

Right.

Or talk to someone Outside, like a therapist or a coach or a clergy person, because like Dr. Michael Herschel say, you can't read the label from inside the jar, right? So sometimes within your own brain, you're not really sure the best way or what you can do when you don't see the options. So just talking to someone, it helps because then they'll hopefully be able to validate you and your experience and maybe help guide you to an appropriate next step for you in that situation, since it's very individual how it should be handled to be in your best interest.

That's so beautiful. And I think that's one of the biggest things in medicine that's such a problem right now is that we do get so siloed. We don't talk to other people. We don't create that community. I think some of that is fear. Like you said, we have created this culture of perfectionism. We're afraid to admit that we are struggling. We don't like to talk about it. But also in this culture, we don't see anybody else struggling. No one's talking about the fact that this is a common challenge, that these are things that everybody's experiencing, but we don't want to talk about it because if we're the first person to ask, hey, are you having a problem with this? Do you feel like you're getting gaslit or bullied by this attending? And the person next to you says, oh man, no, I've never had that problem. Then you're feeling like, oh, well, that's just me. But even if it's just you still deserve to be validated, seen, and heard. Even if that is your experience. That is something that is important to talk about. And so the more that I'm talking to people and being on the podcast, which is so wonderful, and Michael Hirsch, who was on the podcast, and he'll be on, I think, the week before you, that was something we definitely got into, is this idea of having a community of people. And this is something that you really talk about as well, that one of the biggest issues with burnout, with moral injury, is the fact that we have not created a community. And I know because you're an ambassador for the Dr. Lauren Abreen Foundation and for people who don't know who she is, which I feel like that's a story that desperately needs to be told if people don't know the story, that she was an emergency room physician in New York who took her own life shortly after the beginning of COVID And with her memory, the fact that people are working so diligently in this foundation, number one, that we never want another physician to end their own lives ever again. We want to end that, but it is this idea that she was so overwhelmed and had nobody to go to. Nobody knew she was in this struggle. I think the other great thing that you're doing is you're absolutely making this a more talked about issue. Do you find that people don't really realize how much of a problem this is in medicine?

So you mean people outside of medicine, right?

Yeah, like patients.

So to speak to that, so I have a friend from high school. Her name is Patty Greer, and. She's a lawyer and she's the provost of Berkeley College in New Jersey. And yesterday she invited me to speak at the college and to do a book signing. And actually we have it, the book you're talking about. I have it right here. White Coat, Courageous Heart. So thank you for asking me to speak to this. And after the talk, somebody came up to me and she's, I think, a criminal justice major. And she thanked me so much because she thinks in the work that she'll be doing, that having this understanding is going to be so valuable. And she said, I had no idea. And then someone brought their class in to hear the talk yesterday. And at the end, he bought a book for his doctor and he said, it never even crossed my mind to ask my doctor how they're doing. So speaking to your point, and other people have said to me, like, I had no idea. I've never thought of asking my doctor how they're doing. So you're in the general population. You're right. There's a lack of awareness.

But I think the work that you're doing both with Medicine Forward and with the Dr. Lorna Breen Foundation, I think is starting to really have an effect. And the reason why I say that is I am having more patients that are asking me, how are you today? And they're not asking it as a pleasantry. They really want to know. And I actually had a patient today, which it's so great that we're here on the podcast today, who I saw back in July. She was in for a problem visit. She came in today for her annual follow-up. And I've seen this patient for 20 years. I mean, I know her very well. And she said to me today as she was leaving, I was really happy to see you. You look far less stressed today than the last time I saw you. Oh my goodness. And it was so interesting. And I was like, wow, thank you. But it was really interesting because I don't know that I've ever had somebody say that to me before. And granted, I have a great relationship with this patient. I've seen her for a long time. But for someone to have that kind of insight into how you are functioning, because I went back and I looked at whatever day it was. When was the last time, what was going on in my life that day that I saw her? And I did have a really busy day that day. I had traveled and I had surgery and I did have a lot going on, but for someone to pick up on that and then actively kind of give you that positive feedback, it's like, you look happier and healthier today than you did the last time I saw you. I think part of it as physicians is that we do need to be more vulnerable in that space. And that's really hard for us to do.

Yes. And yeah, Dr. Wiglehurst speaks to that as well. And also that being vulnerable doesn't mean you have to tell somebody everything, but that you can let little bits and pieces of yourself show, and that you'll be pleasantly surprised at how it's received.

And I think that's an expectation And I would love to know what you think about this. You know, as physicians, we sort of expect that we think our patients should be not super people, but we're very professional and we should be, you know, in that space of being a physician. And that's kind of a very defined space. And so the idea of being more comfortable and more human and letting some personality out, actually, that's something patients want.

Yes.

We're not good at it, but it's something that patients really want. Do you see that as being a benefit in the physician-patient relationship?

Absolutely. Because through my own sordid medical journey over the past few years, I've seen over 40 doctors and I've had all kinds of experiences. But now my favorite doctors, I would do anything for them. But it's because we do see each other as human. And, you know, 'cause I have had some interactions. And again, I understand now when you're seeing patients every 15 minutes, it feels like time to make the donuts, you know, this one, that one. And sometimes doctors become numb to it all. So it almost amazes me now that some are still managing not to become numbskull and still showing up with their best selves. But I almost worry about them more, like, at what cost to themselves. But I have a relationship with each of them, and I love that. You know, like, one of my daughters, we talk about our vacations, and we have this, like, inside joke. It always goes the same place because the son likes to go there. And we're like, why would you want to go there? You know, the people that live there wonder, why would you go there? So it's just something funny. And then, you know, one of my other doctors is just like, they're really good at jokes and we've had some funny things happen with jokes. And it is all about the human connection, right? It's all about connecting and we all wanna connect as people. And I think that's the, the most important thing really.

Oh my gosh. That's so beautiful. That's how we get healthier as physicians. It's also how we get healthier as human beings. One of the things that you go in the book, it talks about trauma and the physicians' trauma that we experience. One of the things that you talk about in the book is this idea that we really do need to sit with our trauma to get to a spot that we can be vulnerable with it. As you're working with physicians, as you're on the podcast, what kind of things come into that trauma and what kind of things have physicians done to work through that?

So for physicians to realize and for patients to realize that physicians are no likely to have experienced trauma than anyone else, and some studies would even say more so because sometimes that's the reason that they went into medicine, that they didn't feel safe as a child or protected as a child or things happened and they want to help other people and they don't want other people to deal with the things that they had to deal with. So sometimes that's the reasons they go into medicine. But so this year in particular, I've been having somewhat of a focus on trauma-informed care, trauma-informed therapy, trauma-informed coaching, because in the end, we're all showing up interacting with each other's trauma.

Right.

And if we were only aware of that, we could hold space for each other and have room for kindness. Because we have healthcare leaders and they've experienced trauma, but sometimes they would be going around like, well, just suck it up, knowing that bad things happen to them and they're resilient. Why can't you be resilient? But then sometimes they have an aha moment, and when they get in a bad place, they realize what they need is help and support and all of that. And then they're like, oh my gosh, that's what my employees need as well. You know, like if they've Mm-hmm. So we need caring leaders, and that's at the top. So leaders have to care for themselves, right? And if they've had trauma, do their own trauma work. And then so then they can be more thoughtful about supporting their employees. So then the doctors and other healthcare workers, same thing. Like doctors could walk around and they've had every kind of trauma in their own lives, and they could be thinking, well, that's nothing. In their own brain, like, this is what I had to deal with and I'm still showing up. But to realize for their colleagues and for themselves to address that trauma, because over time, again, they might get angry or numb or end up with a lot of anxiety, depression if they don't address their own traumas. And also then they might not be able to be as sensitive to their patients as well. They might be thinking— and I've even had other healthcare professionals tell me that looking back before they went through challenging times, that they would think, oh my gosh, you know, this patient is a wimp. Not to say those exact words, but they truly thought that.

Right.

They're like, that's nothing. Like, I've been through a lot worse. But it's like patients are showing up, you know, have had trauma as well. So every level has to respect, but it also goes the other way. And that's why I say how important it is to thank a doctor or ask a doctor how they're doing. So I try to advocate. So my mission statement is to build connection and create advocacy for healthy doctors. So part of what I'm doing is sharing these stories so doctors feel less alone and supporting doctors, but also educating patients so that it can go the other way and realize your doctor might be going through some really challenging times. You know, there's doctors who have had a parent that attempted suicide. They might have kids with special needs or addiction issues. Like any problem you have, you know, doctors have them too. So if it went both ways, we don't have to wait for the system. The system has to change right around the world. It's broken. Yes. And things could be a little better today if we just held kindness and space and empathy for each other at every level.

Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. If you had to start someplace, you know, how to make change in the healthcare system, because I mean, this is a big topic. We all know our healthcare system is so incredibly broken. We knew that before COVID it's gotten worse after. And the idea of what can we do to change the healthcare system, and it's so amazing and so awesome that maybe that one thing we can all do is hold space and grace For somebody else in the healthcare system, if that is a patient, if that is a colleague, whoever it is, the fact that we can absolutely be a source of solace for that person just by letting them have the space to process that trauma. And that is one thing. If you think of one thing that you can do, I want to change healthcare. All right, here's the one thing you can do to do that. And what's so beautiful about that, Kim, is that's anybody. That's a patient. That's a doctor. However you interact with the healthcare system, this is the one thing you can do to make our system better. And think about having thousands of people hold space like that, and what kind of environment that would create. That's power. It really is.

You're right. And to speak to that, a couple random things that immediately come to mind is a couple years ago, my mom had some significant health challenges and was in and out of the hospital. And I remember the person that came in to clean her room. And I tell that she was proud of what she did. And I don't think she really spoke English, but she'd kind of stop and look. And I would just like really look her in the eye and say, thank you very much. And she took that in. Because what they do— and when you think of during COVID nobody was thinking about, you know, if people weren't clean in the operating rooms, trauma surgeries, they weren't going to happen. So here were the people—

Yeah.

At the bottom of the pay scale, Doing some of the most danger, you know, at the time might have been considered some of the most dangerous work, right? Because you didn't know who had the virus, how it was transmitted, all of those things. So that was one way me as a relative of a patient, but sometimes that could just help that person keep going to help her realize that her work is valuable as well. And there's just so many instances, or even doctor. could, if they have a healthcare leader who was doing something right or doing something well, they might not think to thank a colleague or even a healthcare leader. They might just take that for granted or not have the time. But someone is doing something right, say thank you to them.

And it's such a beautiful, simple act, but it's so meaningful to create that. That's amazing. One of the things that she just mentioned Is this idea of trauma-informed processes. And I think trauma-informed leadership especially is becoming something that we're more aware of in the healthcare system. One of the previous guests on the podcast, Dr. Stephanie Byerly, who is a physician coach—

Yes.

As a name that you're nodding and you know, she was amazing. But she did such a beautiful job of talking to us about trauma-informed leadership and what that process looks like. And I think people like Michael Hirsch are also such amazing physician coaches. The idea of offering these services to doctors is so great. I think the biggest thing that I see right now is doctors learning to avail themselves of those services, to actually take advantage of them. Because I think as you're seeing more and more people offering physician coaching, it's just going to be a question of physicians kind of, okay, this is something that I need to do. And it's not just something I want to do. It's not elective. It's something that probably to keep being effective in my career, I need to do.

For sure.

And I think a lot of that is that we tend to stuff that kind of stuff down. We tend to not want to deal with it. And like you said, trying to be in that Superman space is like, oh, I can do this. I don't have to worry about having any of that happen. One of the phrases in the book that I love so much is you talk about physicians not losing themselves in the process, that in the process of practicing medicine, and you talk about this so beautifully, even in the process of medical education.

Yeah.

We can get lost in this idea of becoming doctors. I love the quote in the book where you talk about, you know, don't get lost in the process. Getting lost in this process of working in healthcare, of being physicians, of becoming physicians. How do we keep ourselves from getting lost in the process?

But if there's something that you love to do, say it was running, then even find like five minutes a few times a week to run. Or if you love to play an instrument, because I've had doctors on that have talked about how late they love music, but in residency they let that go away. So find a timer if there's a chunk of time, you know, that you do set it aside when you do have a little more time again. Get that back, and because for some doctors. Once they become attendings and get into a routine and might have a little bit of time, they don't even remember what they used to like to do or what would bring them joy. So some people would say, think back to what you liked to do when you were a teenager, and that's a good place to start. Or it might sound silly, but just look up hobbies and see what interests you today. So there might be something like, oh, like I literally might like to go fly a kite, like something like that, right?

Yeah.

I, you know, because you're at a different stage. So things that interested you before may or may not interest you now, but that's so very important to make a little bit of time. 'Cause it's not, Trey, when they say, you know, you gotta put your own oxygen mask on before you can help other people. So if you're doing things, 'cause doctors end up putting themselves last, feeling like everybody at work, all the patients come before them, then they come home and they put their family before them, but then you're gonna get so drained. That— and crispy, right? That you won't be good to anyone. So you're doing yourself and your family and your patients a favor if you save a little bit of time for yourself. And if you don't know where to start too, sometimes you just need to create some white space. Because sometimes when you don't know, you want to keep going because you're afraid to sit in the silence or the uncertainty. It's easier to keep going or sometimes to overwork. But if you give yourself a little time and space or just, you know, go for a walk or take a longer shower, right? And sometimes things will just come to you in those quiet moments.

Oh, that's so beautiful. And I love the fact that, you know, even 5 minutes of something can be so powerful. But also too, I love this idea of just make a list of the things that bring you joy. You know what things in your life bring you joy? I actually was in an executive coaching session a couple of weeks ago with four other doctors, and one of the doctors literally what you just said said to me, Lee, what brings you joy? And it's like I like my husband, my kids, my dog. I like to sit on my front porch and read a book. And he's like, that's awesome. When's the last time you did it? And I was like, okay, here's your wake-up call because I think when somebody. Says to you, if like you're really checking in on a colleague, for example, you know, I want to check in on a colleague. Sometimes, how are you? What kind of answer are you going to get? I'm not really sure. So having, asking that person instead, what things have you done in the last week that have brought you joy personally? That's a much more effective way to make sure that person is doing well, to make sure that physician is practicing some self-care and some mindfulness. What brings you joy and have you done those things recently? One of my favorite things to do when I'm checking on a colleague is I'll ask them, what color is your heart today? And I love that because rather than asking them, how are you? Because I mean, I'm fine. You know, we're all good at that. But if I ask somebody, what color is your heart today? You really have to think about that one. And I love the fact that it makes people kind of check in with themselves.

That's beautiful.

Because as physicians, like you said, it's that we get in that process of doing, but we're sometimes not good in checking in our own emotions. Like sometimes we don't even know our own temperature. We know the temperature of everybody else, but we don't know our own. So anything we can do to break through that barrier and make us really think about where we are in that moment, which of course is the essence of mindfulness, it's, it's a very, very powerful thing to do as a daily practice. I think that's huge. Because you've talked about so beautifully this creating this culture of compassion that we need to actually not just be compassionate, but create a culture of compassion. What other things can we do as doctors to really create that?

There's self-compassion, right? And there's compassion for others. And people, or doctors, tend not to have self-compassion for themselves. If they make any little what they perceive as a mistake, they beat themselves up. And it's not unique to physicians, but physicians, you know, in particular can be very, very hard on themselves. And what a lot of doctors are talking about now And it is good to frame it in your brain. Would you talk to a friend like that? Would you talk to your kids like that? And you absolutely wouldn't. So if you're beating yourself like, oh my God, I'm the stupidest person in the universe, right? Or something like that.

Yep.

Then it's like, would you tell that to a friend? Would you tell that to your kids? No, you would never do that. So the first step is awareness. And I guess we have so many negative thoughts all day long, every day. Is first just to raise awareness of that and catch yourself. And then if you can just take that one step to catch yourself, then the next step would be thinking, okay, how could I show a little more kindness or compassion for myself? And then the next step could be again extending that, because if you become numb to it all, then sometimes, as we talked about a little earlier, you might not be extending that. You just might get angry very quickly. Whether it's with your colleagues or your patients or your family. And sometimes you might hold it in and be angry with colleagues or patients at work, but knowing full well that you can't let it show. Some doctors do. I mean, some surgeons throw things in the OR, right? I've heard stories. But others hold it in. But then when they get home, sadly, their family bears the brunt of it. So it's again, first you truly have to take care of yourself so you can be feeling a little better to show up better for your family. And then you can show your colleagues and your patients and your family more compassion as well.

I love that. I love how you start that with self-compassion, that you can't really exercise compassion for other people until you've learned how to do it for yourself. And that's probably one of the biggest gaps, I think, as we are learning to be compassionate as physicians. Is that if we can't exercise it on ourselves, it's going to be really hard to exercise it with patients and colleagues. So it, it has to start right here. And I think that's so powerful. I wanna talk about the name of your podcast, Stand Up Doctors, but for is in parenthesis. So tell us about that.

Then somehow, just standing up for doctors came to me, but the for is in parentheses because when I'm interviewing doctors, I'm saying, stand up, doctors, raise your voice. And when I'm interviewing patients or other people that intersect with healthcare, I'm letting them know why we need to stand up for doctors. So that's why the for is in parentheses.

I love that so much. The fact that you are leading and encouraging people to stand up for us, it's only going to make us more effective to stand up for them. And the work that you're doing, and I really want everybody to buy White Coats, Courageous Hearts, because honestly, you know what I felt like when I read the book? I felt like someone had given me a hug. That's truly how I felt. Like someone was sitting next to me and had their arms around me and was giving me a hug and saying, all the stuff that you've been through in medicine is okay. Everything you've experienced as a physician, all the trauma you've experienced, everything you've been through, it's okay. And other people feel that way. And so it's not even just, I want every doctor, resident, medical student to read your book. I want everybody who's ever been a patient, which again is all of us, who has a contract with the healthcare system to read that book. I think it's incredible. And I think the work that you're doing is incredible.

Well, thank you so much. I appreciate that. And I feel the same way. And I think all the authors who contributed feel the same way. Because any doctor who reads it will see parts of themselves in these stories and it'll be validating for them. And then any patient that reads it, they'll see the humanity and the struggles that their doctors have had too. And actually it's gonna be a series. So if you look in the corner, it says book 1. So we're actually working on book 2.

Yay!

And the working title for that one is White Coat human hearts, and this one will have a few patient stories. So it's very exciting. And actually, one is a story of a neurosurgeon, and there's also the story patient who is a patient of a neurosurgeon, and it's not the same doctor-patient, but that's gonna be beautiful complementary chapters.

Yes.

And I would love to put in a plug if I can for— I'm also hosting a physician retreat. Next year, Columbus Day weekend 2026 at the Edith Macy Conference Center in Briarcliff Manor, New York. And Dr. Michael Hirsch and Dr. Stephanie Byerly will both be there presenting some topics. And that's when we could all give you a big hug in person. So we're like super excited. So a number of the authors will be there and presenting. We're going to have topics and activities and we're alternating. some serious things with lighter things and doing things to get into your body. And there's hiking trails and fireplaces, and we'll have a gratitude dinner and all of that. And if you would like, I could tell you about my logo. I think you might like to.

Yes, please do tell us about it.

Yes. So the last time I talked to my doctor, I was at a local beach and he called to thank me for my thank you note. And of course I didn't know that was the last time I'd ever talked to him. So I go back there and I pick up pieces of sea glass and I've made sea glass hearts for my doctors. And so that is how the logo came to be. So it's a mosaic heart and then it's a little hard to tell. It's the cuff sleeves like there. So it's a patient giving a doctor a hand.

Oh, Kim, that's beautiful.

Thank you.

That is absolutely beautiful. Well, I'm excited for all the work that you've done. I'm glad you got to share with us about your retreat next year. We'll definitely put the link for that in the show notes as well as the book is on Amazon. Kim, if people want to find you and interact with you and listen to your podcast, how would they do that?

Sure, thanks for asking. So I'm on LinkedIn a lot, so it'll be great if they would like to connect with me on LinkedIn. And then my YouTube channel is Stand Up for Doctors, and the episodes are just being uploaded now onto Spotify. So I have over 130 episodes and I think 70 of them. So that's Stand Up for Doctors. I also have a monthly Stand Up for Doctors Substack newsletter. I kind of summarize my advocacy efforts for the month. And then I do have a website, standupfordoctors.org, and it's live. The main link now would be at the top to register for the conference. So that's a work in progress as As far as like having a call to action and things we can all do together to move the needle.

Sounds amazing. And we will link all that as well. Kim, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I really appreciate your time. And I can't even begin to tell you how grateful I am the work that you're doing for physicians and how you're helping us be healthier humans, because we need it. And it is a blessing to have people working for us to help us be heard. So thank you so much.

Well, and thank you again for this opportunity. I appreciate it. And doctors do thank me every day, and that makes it so rewarding. And now I'm dependent on doctors to keep me alive, so I better be grateful. So I appreciate you very much, and we need doctors, right? So I just wanted to say that everyone wins when physicians are well, and physician advocacy is patient advocacy, because if your patients are doing well, If your doctor isn't doing well physically or emotionally, then they can't give you the best care. So even if patients wanted to care for selfish reasons, we all need to care about doctors. Absolutely.

Thank you again, Kim. And thank you to all of us who have joined us on the Scalpel and Sword podcast. And until next time, my peaceful warriors, be at peace.

Every episode is an invitation To speak, to negotiate, to choose. I'm Dr. Lee Sharma. Join the dialogue by subscribing to Scalpel and Sword. Until next time, peaceful warriors, may your choices be sharp and your voice be even sharper. This podcast is a reflection of lived experience and research in conflict resolution. The Scalpel and Sword is not intended as medical or legal guidance. For personal matters, please consult a qualified professional.