EP24 - Positivity Under Pressure: Pooie Cantrell’s Wisdom for Better Patient Care

In every operating room, in every ward, in every clinic, and every team meeting, a silent battle brews. Conflict, negotiation, identity. Welcome to the Scalpel and Sword podcast, where I, Dr. Lee Sharma, physician and conflict analyst, Explore the hidden negotiations behind modern medicine. Let's trade burnout for boundaries and learn the art of healing with precision and power.

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Hello, my peaceful warriors. Welcome to the Scalpel and Sword podcast. I am your host, Dr. Lee Sharma, physician and conflict analyst, and I am so excited to have on the podcast today my dear friend Alicia Pui Cantrell. Pui graduated from nursing school at Southern Union in Opelika in 1993. After graduation, she became a nurse in the cardiovascular intensive care unit where she worked for 17 years. And then she spent a long and very amazing career as a nurse in the recovery room at East Alabama Medical Center. She is a traveler. She is a woman of amazing strength. She has so many great stories and so much experience, and I am really, really thankful to call her my friend. So, Pui, welcome to the podcast. Thank you.

It's great to be here. Thank you for the invitation.

Absolutely. So I was actually sitting here thinking today about like when I met you. I was trying to get in my head a timeline of like how long I've known you, because I feel like there were so many of you that when I first came here as a physician in 1997, that I met so many welcoming people, welcoming presences. I feel like you probably knew Shosh, my husband, before you knew me because of being in the CVI. But then when you went to recovery, of course, is when I really feel like we connected professionally. I have this one memory of this one night, and this was probably 3 or 4 years ago, but it was one of those nights that I was on ER call and I was taking people back all night. Like literally, I think I operated all night. And I remember every time I would come out and I was exhausted, you know, it was 2 o'clock in the morning. I already still had another case to do. And your smile and your encouragement, because you helped me keep my perspective. And I remember laughing with you as we were working through this night. And it's like, I'm so tired and Pooey has me laughing. At what point— because I feel like that's something for you that's very intentional, that you bring joy into your space all the time. Is that a gift that you've always had?

It is. I mean, I never remember not having it. You know, it's who I am. There are those that are irritated by it at times, but I can't believe that I'm just after my 12-hour shift, I walk out and I want to be as bright and cheerful to those folks I meet coming into their shift as I was when I went into mine. And then when I go in at 7 PM at night, I want to be smiling and is joyful to those folks who have just finished their rough shift. And it is a gift. And it's who I am. Truly, I thank God for it. And hopefully, most of the time, it's been a gift to others.

No, it's 100% a gift to others. And because of the spirit you create, because of this warmth and this ability to be positive in a place that can be really challenging, And things can go south very quickly. Recovery, CVI. I always felt like walking into recovery, that when you were there especially, it was a community. I felt like everybody who was working together in recovery, it felt like it was a very close-knit environment. Most of you had been in recovery, to me, had worked there for a really long time, had worked there together. Very few people— it was not a space that nurses came and went. You tended to see the same faces every single time. And I know that's in no small part due to the fact that you walked in there with that kind of joy and you expressed that openly. And I love that so much. When you started in CVICU, because you were a new graduate when you started in CVI, and we were talking before we went on, Mike, about the fact that you were a tech your last year of nursing school, and that's kind of how you got to know the people in the CVI. Did you feel like walking into that environment was easier for you because you kind of walked in there as a tech and you already had some relationships built?

Absolutely. And I think that no matter where you go in the hospital, like if you're in nursing school or some other profession, that's going to be a career for you in the medical field. If you can get in as a tech or just being in the hospital environment, period, is definitely an asset to whatever job you're going to have in the medical setting. That's one of the reasons I think that the HOSA program that the boat that the high schools have is so valuable because it lets these high school students be up close and personal to some things. And it lets you know, oh my goodness, that's really not something I'm going to be able to do, you know, the rest of my life. It helps them know before they've spent years in education or getting educated for it and then making that decision. But absolutely, me working as a tech and the way the people mentored me even then, knowing that I was in nursing school, made a huge difference for me.

Wow. I'm going to show my age for just a second. The HOSA program, before it was called HOSA, was called Earn and Learn. And they used to say, you know, high schools could send people. And so in 1985, I was in the first group of Earn and Learns. That came to Lee County Hospital at that point. And they actually put me with Dr. Ingram in cardiology. And that was when they used to do the echoes. They did not have the echoes. Of course, it wasn't computerized. They had big rolls of paper that they would record the echocardiograms on, and they throwing them in a closet behind the ER. And so my very first job at now East Alabama was Dr. Ingram walks me into this closet. That was floor to ceiling of rolls of paper of echocardiograms. And he says, can you organize these? I was like, sure. So it was me in this room full of boxes. And basically I just had to sit there and go through and figure out how to organize them. And it probably took me a week to get it all done, but I got it done. And then they said, oh, you already finished that? I'm like, yeah, give me something else to do. And so, they put me as the secretary to then-Vice President Wayne Poe because his secretary was on maternity leave. So, I had to— and that, to me, as a 16-year-old, was my first insight into physician conflict because my desk was, you know, at that point, the doctor's lounge was on the second floor. And so, my office was essentially across from the medical library, but right next door to the doctor's lounge. So, I could hear everything in the hallway. So, if doctors were out there yelling and screaming at each other, Which happened. Oh yeah, I heard it all. And my parents used to say, if you want to go into medicine after seeing all of that, you must really want to go into medicine. I feel like you also have, by virtue of working in CVI and working in recovery, you've also unfortunately had a ringside seat to seeing these conflicts that occur, and especially with physicians.

Yes.

What was that like for you the first time you witnessed Because I know you've witnessed it many, many, many times. The first time you witnessed doctors fighting, do you remember that?

Yeah. I think one of the things that I thought most was how unfortunate this is, that this is happening because it took away from the care of a patient. I had a hard time understanding that. I hadn't figured out yet these personality conflicts, not just personality conflicts and not even the God complex, but I'm a little something. Because I'm a doctor kind of feeling. Because in my opinion, what I was hoping I was bringing to the table, it's all about what we can do to make it a better experience for the patient, for their family, help them get well. Having this conflict that seems to be more about who's in charge versus let's work together and make this better. It was very disheartening, I guess. When I first experienced it, it was very disheartening for me.

Yeah. And I think too, like you said, it's like if you start to forget the reason why we're here, we're not here for your ego, we're here for the patient. When you start to lose that perspective, I think a lot of times is where people will sort of have more of that conflict occur. Because when you're trying to keep that goal in mind, it's like, it's not about me, it's not about my power, it's not about that. It's really about the patient.

Right.

I think that's something that unfortunately, and I feel like too, growing up in a household of physicians that were very humble, my mom and dad are very humble people. You know, dad used to tell me, dad, general surgeon, used to tell me, if I ever hear about you throwing things in an operating room or yelling at somebody in an operating room, if I'm here, I'll come and yell at you. And if I'm in heaven, I will still come down and I will be a ghost and I will yell at you because you can't do that. So I feel like that was a very clear benchmark for me. Like that was spelled out for me as not appropriate behavior.

Yes.

And I think too, you had physicians that modeled that behavior and sometimes younger doctors saw that and said, oh, it's okay for me to do that. I think you're seeing less of that now. I think you're seeing less of that kind of behavior because people are less likely to see it as something that's productive. And people are quicker to understand that it's not appropriate. Do you feel like over the course of your career that maybe you've seen that happen less?

Yes. I think some of it I've seen with new anesthesiologists that came into recovery room as some of the, what we'll call younger anesthesiologists came in. Because the surgeons and the anesthesiologists in recovery are who we work with, I work with the most, especially the anesthesiologists. They were basically Our bosses, you know, in that period in the recovery room, and very much more of a Pui or whoever. What do you think? What do you think is happening here? Let's look at this kind of together kind of thing. Not that they didn't take charge or don't take charge when they need to take charge, but much more of a cooperative effort in the care of the patient. You know, we have our power plans and those kinds of things. And then also just some of the folks that have come along or some of the docs that have come along later, much more humble. And again, much more of a, we're in this together, especially like in this recovery room, a small group of us. And we are a unit. We're not, I'm the doctor, you're the nurse, you know, we work together. Mm-hmm. And especially when it comes to those nights like you were speaking of earlier, where you're doing case after case of just who knows what, just those outrageous nights and these anesthesiologists being a whole lot kinder to deal with and, you know, not ticked off at you because you're doing it, not ticked off at me or not even ticked off at the world because they're up all night. But just being much kinder, gentler kind of setting, I think, in my opinion, is what I've experienced.

I'm so glad. And I definitely think you're also seeing not just an awareness that disruptive behavior is not acceptable. I think it's that for sure. But I do think it's this understanding that when people get in conflict, when physicians start acting out, the patient is the one who suffers. And understanding that if you're really there trying to make the patient better, then you yelling and screaming is not conducive to that at all. And I think people are starting to see that interaction. I think people are starting to see that connection. I also think that the doctors that are coming up behind us, you know, it's so funny because I still think of myself as being a younger doctor and it's like, I'm totally not now. I remember a couple of years ago we had a new ER doc and he called me about something and he says, Oh, you don't remember me, but you gave me a lecture when I was in medical school that I'm like, oh dude, you were doing so good till then. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I think that you see less of that. They actually do have a little more understanding of that. I had on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, a gastroenterologist by the name of Dr. Michael Hirsch. He's a physician coach. And one of the things that we talked about that he had commented on, which I think is so cool, Dr. Michael Hirsch, who's a physician coach, was talking about when he talks to physicians, one of the things that he coaches them about with their life stress is understanding the things they can control and understanding the things they can't control. And there are so many things that go on in medicine that we can't control. And so it's pointless for us to yell and scream about those things. Patients are always going to eat before surgery and we're going to have to reschedule them. That's always going to happen. Stuff always happens. It's the nature of what we do in medicine, right? You know, people get to recovery and stuff happens. People have complications, people bleed, people do stuff, and we have to take them back. I mean, that kind of stuff happens all the time.

Yes.

Have you ever been in a situation, or I'm sure you have been in multiple, where you literally had things going completely sideways and you've seen some physicians that came in there and managed it Really well, and maybe some physicians who came in there and maybe didn't manage it as well as they could have?

Yes, physician handled it well, another not so well. And it's like you said earlier, when the physician is out of control because they can't control the situation and not grasping that it's okay that they can't necessarily, you can just do what you can do. And you start at point A and you work toward a good outcome. And there are those, yes, who just lose themselves because they lose control of the situation. And then everybody's just doing their best to make it not be a worse situation.

Right.

Versus another physician who gives it a minute, takes in everything, even if it's an emergency. Urgent emergent still gives it that few seconds to really assess what's happening, who is there to help them, because that makes a difference. And, you know, the confidence like that you were saying you had in me, other nurses, the confidence those doctors have in the nurses that are there at the bedside at that moment, and knowing exactly who is going to do what, even without being told. And Being okay with that versus the physician who has to micromanage each and everything that is happening right there at that. I think that's where some situations get out of control, Dr. Sharma, is a physician thinking that they have to manage every little thing that's happening versus seeing the team that you have there and knowing who is going to do this, going to do that over here, and knowing that's going to happen. Whether you, as my doctor, say, go do this right now or not. And the doctor that can be okay with that and understand that team and what's there, I think that urgent emergent situation gets handled more effectively and generally has a better outcome. I'm not saying that there's never a time that everything just breaks loose and everybody's stressed and stuff. But still, I think that doctor that can be that calming person versus that high-pitched screamer definitely has a better outcome. Wow.

Pui, that's so insightful. And I want to bring up, because there are so many things that you said in just that one statement that I think are so powerful. The first one is this idea that even if things are going completely crazy, That the physicians that are able to pause and take a breath and survey are the ones that are probably going to get the better outcome because they have taken that second.

Absolutely.

It is that illusion of, oh my gosh, everything's going crazy. It's an emergent situation. I have to act right now. It's like, you can take a breath and it's okay and you can gather yourself. But you said something else really cool in that statement is the people who are able to take a breath and pause And realize that they are not in it alone, that they have really experienced people there who want to help them, who want to help them in this situation. And I think one of the most dangerous things that sometimes happens to physicians, and especially in the course of our educations, is that we see ourselves in a silo. We think we're by ourselves. We think that we are all alone and it's all falling on us. And that mentality, while it does give you sort of a certain sense of, not independence, but a sense of agency in terms of what you're doing, sometimes it can be very isolating. And so, if you really can teach yourself, I am part of a team, all these people are here to help me, let me avail myself of this really wonderful help that I have, and realize that I am not in here alone. And sometimes, even just to say, okay, just give me a second. I mean, that's a very powerful statement. Yes, everything's crashing. Give me a second and let me breathe. I will tell you one of my favorite stories about this. I tell this all the time. We had just moved here. So Shosh and I had been here for about a month. For people who are new to the podcast, my husband is pulmonary critical care. And at that point, the hospital that we were working at, which is still, you know, East Alabama, labor and delivery was right next to the step-down unit. So it was just down the hall. And so I heard them call cardiac arrest. In the step down, and I'm like, "Well, I'm not doing anything in labor and delivery. Let me just walk over there and see if I can help." So I walk in there. Patient's crashing. It was Shasha's patient, and so they called him. He walks in. There's twenty people in this room that are running in circles. He walks in, and he says, "Stop!" Like he yells it, and everybody froze. Now the patient's still in arrest, right? So he takes off his white coat. He hangs it on the door jamb. Now the whole room is staring at him, including me, while this is happening. He stops to straighten the sleeves on the white coat.

I can imagine.

And then turns back around and says, how may I help? Instantly, the room calms down. And I'm like, they don't need me. They got him. I'm good. I left, got out of their way. And then about an hour later, he came over to find me in labor and delivery. And he said, I saw you in there. It's like, well, yeah, they called Code Blue, so I just went over there, but, you know, they had you. And he said, well, I'm glad you came over, but we got the patient back and the patient's good. I'm not surprised because you walked in and you were this very calming influence. And I think that was the first time that I really can recall seeing a situation where a patient was clearly crashing and the calmness of the physician. Facilitated the care of the patient. I wish we had cell phones at that point because if it wouldn't have been a HIPAA violation, I would have videoed that because it was one of the most powerful examples I've ever seen. And as you're telling these stories about seeing physicians that are yelling and screaming versus seeing physicians that are calm and who can take a breath, but also it allows them to see the fact that they're not alone and they're part of that team and how very important that is for the patient. That is just a tremendous observation. And it is one of those things that it does sound like the younger people coming through maybe have a better handle on that.

Yeah. I don't know if that's happening in their teaching in school, if that's happening, or if one or two of our folks have come our way now are like homegrown. So I don't know, like Joey Clay, he's a Beauregard guy and one of the absolute smartest. But most humble, awesome. You talk about a team player.

Yep.

I mean, any emergency, I would be happy to be with him in because some of them know a bunch of these people since they were young. I don't know if it's just a whole new— this generation is just different. And they weren't placed in the medical field with that idea that you're better than somebody because you're a doctor. I mean, and I'm not blaming anybody for that. I'm just saying, I think that was a mindset in the past that definitely, you know, it's jokes amongst nurses, but of what patients will listen to from the nurse that have been there all for 12 hours and then the doctor can walk in and it's like, oh, but the doctor said, you know, I mean, that's mindset and what has happened over the years. But I do think that maybe it's that we have a medical school in our town now. Maybe that helps part of it. And that they are coming through as residents and such. But it is, in my 32, 33 years, definitely a different mindset, different actions among many.

And I think it's good.

I think it's good for everybody. The care team, it's not just us nurses, it's a whole care team that are taking care of these people that the doctor has been giving this big, great In quote, you're in charge of my care, doctor. But it's this care team that ultimately makes that doctor look good in the decisions that they're making for the care, because we are the people who are carrying out those orders. And then tell you, oh, that didn't work so good, or so-and-so is not doing too good after that intervention. But, you know, I think these younger folks coming through, Listen better, perhaps, than some of the other older generation will say.

Wow. That's a tremendous observation that you're able to see that as they're coming through. The fact that I've been talking about Dr. Clay, I think there is something to people coming back to the place where they grew up or maybe where people knew them, because people do know who you are. You do feel a sense of community. When you are living in the place you grew up, certainly I felt that I wasn't going to act up because I was Dr. McGendron's daughter. I knew that my behavior reflected on her and I wasn't going to do that. And, you know, as sweet as my mother is, she still would have beat my hiney if I had done something or acted up. And I knew that as well. But also too, when you're talking about like people coming through medical school and sort of seeing themselves as more of that team mentality, I think if medical students can figure out very early that you have so much to learn and the nurses are a fount of information for you, that the sooner you learn that, the faster and higher your learning curve goes. There was a nurse where I trained in Dallas in the Parkland emergency room. Her name was Wilma. Wilma had worked at that emergency room for 25 years. And 25 years ago, when Wilma had started her education, she probably would have been a doctor And not a nurse. I mean, Wilma was very, very wise. So one night, I'm an intern, I think at this point, and it's the middle of the night in Dallas. I mean, the ER is crazy. And so Wilma is sitting at the desk and she sees a patient walking in and she says, hey, Negendran, come here. I went, yeah, Wilma. She said, see that lady walking in there? I said, yep. She's got an ectopic pregnancy. I'm like, Wilma, she's walking in. And I said, yeah, look at her walk. Look at her shuffle. Only people with ectopics do that. She got a belly full of blood. You need to go get her. I'm like, yes, ma'am. So I had Wilma said it. So I went and I got her back and I worked her up. And sure enough, she had a hemoperitoneum, had an ectopic, got her upstairs. They operated on her. She did great. I guess maybe a couple, 3 weeks later, I was standing at the desk. There was a second-year resident who was standing there and Wilma said, Hey, Doc, see that lady over there? She's got PID. I'm telling you, I can talk and look at her. And Wilma could, because she'd been doing it that long. She could look at somebody and tell what they had from the door. But that doctor didn't listen to Wilma. Said, okay, Wilma, I'll get to it. I'll get to it. And I don't know what happened to the patient after that. But, you know, Wilma had told her and she didn't listen. And then I figured out something really quick. Because I listened to Wilma the first time and I acted on it, Wilma saved me more times than I could count because I was an intern. I was stupid. I didn't know anything. And so Wilma could say, hey, Doc, do this. Hey, Doc, do that. Hey, Doc, have you already done this? And every time she told me to do something, I did it. And as a result, she taught me so much. And there's still things that I do for no other reason than Wilma told me to do it. She told me one time, it's like, hey, Doc. You know, if patients can't pee, that means they got a belly full of blood. I'm like, good to know. So was seeing a consult one time, and she was actually getting worked up for a gallbladder, and they had got her to pee on a stick, and she was pregnant. And so they called me over there, hey, come clear her so we can go take her gallbladder out. So I go over there, and I was like, well, I need to get a urine specimen. And she's like, well, I can't pee. Sure enough, she didn't have a gallbladder; she had an ectopic. So. I think this is also one of those things that medical students, if they're wise, and doctors, if they're wiser, will understand that your team is there to help you. And sometimes if your brain is going in a million different directions, your team will save you. And they need to have that awareness. And when you are upset and angry and that part of your brain kind of shuts off, these are the people who will actually help you. Do your job. And I feel like you do that so beautifully. You're always able to help people and give them a direction and do that in such a way that it's like, I am helping you. And I think you present that in such a beautiful way. And I think that's probably saved a lot of people because you've been able to do that. Have you ever had to get in a doctor's face or tell them that they need to back off or maybe they need to correct their behavior?

Yes.

One of the first times was years ago. Of course, I won't say who, but I was in CVICU and this particular physician that I'll just say that was not the surgeon, but there was a particular physician that was involved in care of what we were doing. And I just had to rear up and remind him, number one, that at that particular time, I had been doing what I was doing longer than he was doing what he was doing. That I was very proficient at my job, and I'm not sure. I don't remember everything that I said, but basically you need to back off and realize that you're not the only one that can do good here. Basically, I think in a nutshell that you don't get respect just because you have doctor beside your name. You get respect because you're a good doctor, and by the same token. You also need to respect me at that time as the nurse that I was and the experience that I had and what I specifically knew in the CDICU field at that time. And that particular doctor I might've encountered more than once and might've said more than once, this is no brag. I was good. I am good. And that should be respected that I am good at what I do.

Yes.

And that I've had years of doing it. And again, take that minute to pause and think how you're approaching me or others like me. And, you know, respect and such goes, goes two ways, or it should go two ways. And we've, for the most part, had a pretty good working relationship. But there's been more than one doctor that, yes, I've had to just Be professionally reprimanding, I guess you would say, or just to say, look, you know, I'm not new at this. And never necessarily said this is not my first rodeo, but I'm not new at this.

I'm good at this. Right?

And we can do this together. But not like that.

What a great way to put it.

Not anything that I ever enjoyed doing. Quite frankly, sometimes it's a risk when you do that, because you don't know What's going to happen up the line, but nothing has ever come back to harm me. And nothing has ever been reported that I was not professional in what I did. So I took that to mean that the doctor kind of knew I was right or knew that how I presented what I was presenting was correct and they needed to rethink how they were approaching it.

Yeah. And that ability to make some people sort of have that self-reflective moment. Because that's what you're really doing, and that's the value in doing what you did. And I'm quite sure that's why you never heard anything else after those interactions, is because number one, you gave that person pause. They had to think about their behavior. When you do that, even the most stubborn person is going to have to have a moment of self-reflection if somebody calls them out on their behavior. You have to take a minute and you have to stop and think, oh my gosh, is it really me? And yes, I'm really the problem. And you kind of hope that as that happens more and more, that people will start to learn from their behaviors. Like, okay, this is not appropriate for me to act this way. This person really has a lot of expertise. And you kind of also hope they'll make that next leap of, what can I learn from this person and how is this going to help me take care of the patient? That's where you kind of hope they go with it.

Yes.

But it took you being that person. person. In conflict resolution, I like to call that being the agent of reality. You were the agent of reality for that person. And in more than one mediation with a doctor or several, I have had to be the agent of reality. I've had to tell them, you're not sitting here because everybody likes you. You're sitting here because of the conflict that revolves around you and because of the impact that's having on the well-being of your coworkers and the care of your patients.

Yeah.

And if you can And like you did, and did it very well, obviously, being professional while you do it, and also keeping it about, this is not a personal attack. This is me interacting with you professionally about your behavior in this realm right here, and this is what I'm addressing. I think that also helps people walk away from those situations not feeling shame, because I think that's really hard for doctors. I think we're very hard on ourselves and I think we can shame ourselves a lot. And so you want to give that person the space. It's like, I really want to help you. I want to help you be better. I'm not going to let you speak to me like this. I'm not going to let you talk like this, but I do want you to be better.

Yes. Because it's truly all about what we can do together to bring about a good outcome for somebody that's here at a very not good time. In their life, whatever is happening. If they're seeing you at 2:00 AM, nothing good is happening at that time other than the fact that they've got us there to care for them. That's what's good about that.

Yeah.

And what we can do together, the surgeon, the surgical team, the PACU team, the anesthesiologist, what we can all do together to make that patient and that family have a good outcome, who cares who gets the glory other than God getting the praise, honor, and glory?

Amen.

As far as us humans, who cares about who gets the glory? It's just that this is what we can do as a team to make it a better outcome for these people in a crisis.

100%. 100%, Pouie. It is amazing to have you on the podcast. You have so much to share. You have done so much good for so many. I don't want to forget to call out that Pui is one of the recipients of the Daisy Award for Exceptional Service in Nursing. She retired this past year. She and her wife Belinda have been traveling all over the world. They have been to Alaska. They have been to Maine. I'm so, so glad, Pui, that you guys are getting to enjoy your very, very well-deserved retirement. It's a joy to watch you guys live this beautiful life.

It's a great pleasure to be able to live it. Absolutely.

Awesome. Pui, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom and your wonderful, joyful energy. It means a lot to me that you did this. Thank you so much.

Thank you for asking me. I mean, you know, I'm crazy about you and love you as my friend, not just my doctor. And I know we won't get into all of that, but Belinda and I both owe a lot to you and your team that worked very quickly and efficiently when things were going south for us with the cancer diagnosis in both of us. And for that, we'll be eternally grateful, Dr. Sharma. For all that you all did to quickly get the help to us that we needed.

Wow.

As you said, Pui, that is the grace of God. And I'm really thankful that he allowed me to be there. And I'm very, very, very thankful to be able to say that you and Belinda are both cancer-free. That's the greatest statement on the planet. And I'm so glad we get to say that. How wonderful.

Yes.

Thank you again, Pui, for being on The Scalpel and Sword. It means the world to me that you're here. And for all of our peaceful warriors who have joined us, until next time, be at peace.

Every episode is an invitation to speak, to negotiate, to choose. I'm Dr. Lee Sharma. Join the dialogue by subscribing to Scalpel and Sword. Until next time, peaceful warriors, may your choices be sharp and your This podcast is a reflection of lived experience and research in conflict resolution. The Scalpel and Sword is not intended as medical or legal guidance. For personal matters, please consult a qualified professional.