Conquering Fear with TJ LaFaver

Welcome back to When Mamas Rise up podcast, where we empower you all to rise into the very best version of yourselves. I'm Liz.

And I'm Jenna. And we're a couple of moms who have risen up from losing ourselves in the trenches of motherhood, and we are here to help you guys do the same. And today is a very, very special episode. I am actually in St. Louis right now, you guys. We've talked about this before. This is where first form headquarters is, and I'm not far. I'm like, three hours from hq. So I come over here every couple months, just kind of for the day. So every time we're here, we like to take advantage of all of the amazing people that we have access to. So we have a very, very special guest on our podcast today. This person is somebody that both Liz and I really, really look up to. He is a huge mentor to me. He's helped me so much, especially in my own mental health journey, which I talk about quite a bit on this podcast. But regardless, he's a leader within First Form. So we have with us Lefaber on our podcast today.

Is this where I'm supposed to say, what's up?

Yes.

What's up, guys? Hey, first and foremost, honored to be here, to say the very least. Because, you know, as you both were talking, I was just thinking about, you know, when you're saying, like, hey, we're both moms that have risen up, you know, and become better version of ourselves. Like, I feel honored and also that I have a unique perspective because I've been able to have a front row seat to watch that happen, you know, over the last few years. You know, knowing both, you know, where you guys started from versus where you are today, it's really, you know, it's inspiring to me. You know, I know you, so you guys look up to me. I look up to you guys. And just for any listeners that have are new listener or have listened before, like, everything that these, you know, ladies are sharing with you, it's not theory. It's not, you know, a guess, it's not a hope. It's not something they've, you know, ripped off from somebody else. Like, this is stuff that they live and breathe. And I have seen it know firsthand over the last few years. And so I'm excited to be here and honored to be here, to say the least.

Absolutely. So we have a really cool topic that we're going to talk about today, but before we get into that, we wanted you to kind of introduce Yourself a little bit more. Just kind of tell us about you again. We, you're a huge leader here at first form, but like, just tell us about your life, kind of what you do, all the things.

Yeah, so like I said, I'm teacher Lefebvre. So I work here at first form headquarters. I work inside of our sales department amongst a myriad of other things. Been here going on seven years now. Started here back in 2018. It's been really cool to see the growth of the company. I mean, when I started here, I think I was employee 30 or 31, you know, at the time. And, you know, now we're over 400 employees, so it's been a lot of growth. But before that, you know, I actually was a college strength conditioning coach in football. I was intern at Alabama and then worked at the University of South Alabama as assistant strength coach there. Prior to that, worked in, you know, a supplement retail store and, you know, also played college football. Played at Missouri Western State University. Had a short career there. Got medically retired for a bunch of concussions because I was a quarterback that liked to run. Everybody always likes to blame my line. They'll be like, did your line not block for you? It's like, no, I just ran out in front of them. So it's definitely all on me. And then before that, I mean, you know, where I came from. I mean, I grew up about an hour here from St. Louis. You know, grew up in a. About a 700 square foot single slab home that my dad built on the. On a slab from an old mechanic shop. You know, because my parents bought the land, knocked the mechanic shop down and basically built a small little house that had at the time we moved in two bedrooms and a bathroom for my mom, my dad, and my. Myself and two sisters. So it was pretty, pretty tight. Hard to get ready for work or for school with one bathroom. But, you know, I'm very, very blessed from where I came from. And you know, honestly, sports has been a massive part of my life for, you know, really my entire life and now obviously helping people with their fitness. But that's kind of a short synopsis of, you know, my life, who's. We could go on for a while.

You. You say you've had a front row seat to watch us kind of rise up in this role that we're in right now. But I've been with First Forum since you started, and that's what I was saying to Jenna. It's like I've had a front row seat of watching you when you first started and, like, just watching you progress in the company and that's been really cool. So we're just very honored to have you today. And it's likewise, it's been really cool watching you.

So thank you for that.

We.

So, like Jenna said, we were going to talk about the topic of fear and how it holds so many people back. I was reading in a book. I don't know if I've talked about it on the podcast, but Chase the Lion by Mark Batterson. I love this book. I'm reading it for the second time. And he was talking about how we are born with two fears, fear of falling and fear of loud noises. So those are the two things that we're innately born with. Every other fear, every other fear is. Is just learned. Is.

Which is so crazy you say that because if you think about, like, when you. Those are the two things. Like, if you're dreaming, wake you up from a dream. Like, you fall in a dream and it, like, wakes you up, or a loud noise will wake you up in a dream.

It's true.

Everything else is learned.

And I don't want to derail this. I think the. The most important thing is, like, in that it's not necessarily even identifying what you are like. I think the root of this conversation doesn't necessarily start in what you're afraid of. It's understanding that fear is an inevitable thing.

Mm.

Yes, you're born with these two specific types of fear. And yes, everything else is learned, which is part of the process. But what I think one of the things that holds people back in. In the face of fear is that they feel as if it's something they shouldn't have. Right. It's like, you cannot avoid that. That is an inevitable. That is an undeniable. Like, it is always going to be there. It's been with you every day since you've been on this earth. So it's not necessarily how do I not be afraid, it's how do. In spite of being afraid, how do I move forward? You know, that as a true reality.

Which is a good segue to. Oh, go ahead, Jenna.

I was just going to say the thing about fear, too, though, is it's completely subjective. So, like, something that I am afraid of, you're not. Like, you might not be like, something that you're afraid of. I might not be things. Like, we have different things that could be holding us back, but at the end of the day, fear. And I would. I would be willing to say that, like, overall, I think that fear is probably the number one thing that holds people back in life.

Absolutely.

Probably across the board. But like I said, it's subjective, so it's different for everybody what their specific fear is. And that's what we kind of want to dive into a little bit today. Obviously, we want to get kind of TJ's take on that, because TJ is, in my opinion, just like a mindset master. Like, he has a fantastic viewpoint on so many things. And like I said, I learned so much from him. So I want to really dive into his kind of understanding and viewpoint of the topic of fear and then what we can do to kind of talk about how it applies to you and your own journey and being able to get past that and grow. So did you have something you were going to say?

No, that's what I was going to say. It's a good. TJ can actually speak to his personal experience. This is why we were wanting him to come on. Obviously, like Jenna said, he's really good at explaining certain topics when it comes to mindset and just making it very, like, clear. I don't know, it's just like, something always clicks when I hear TJ speak about something, and it's like, I always can. I just resonate with it and. But he recently was sharing about his experience doing a half iron man. And like, I look at someone like TJ and like, you know, he was sharing about his experience with football. And, you know, you just look at someone else and you think, like, well, they. They're not afraid of anything. Like, they. They just do all the things. Like, you just. You get in your head about it. And so it's really cool. When he was sharing his experience about recently, like, what, a month ago? Not even.

Yeah, it was, what, August 18th?

I think it was a couple weeks.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I, you know, I certainly am going to speak to that. One thing that was said earlier is like, you know, hey, I think that fear is the number one thing that holds people back. And. And I would agree with that, but I think that the root is actually a little prior to that. Okay. And why I say that is because we have to understand, okay, if fear is what holds us back, what is it that we are afraid of? Right? And like, earlier you were talking about how there's two root fears and everything else is learned. Right? But why is it learned? Right? Like, why. Why are these fears learned? Like, what, what, what? Because we. We understand, like, our bodies, our physiology, everything about us is made to adapt. Right? Like, if you. You look at human Humans, over the course of time, like we have adapted to improve, right? So we have learned that, hey, if we experience something, right, and maybe it doesn't go the way that we want it to go, that that should be something now that we avoid, Right? Okay, but just because we adapt doesn't mean that it's adapting in a productive way, right? So like there's maladaptive and a lot of these things with fear are maladaptive. And it's all rooted in a protection of self.

Yes.

And so you have to understand that first, I think, because what I always, I tell people this all the time. Like, if you're struggling to find the answer, ask a different question, okay? Because a lot of people will sit there and ask the same question, why am I afraid? Why am I afraid? Why am I afraid? Why am I afraid? No, what are you afraid of? It's a different question, but it'll. And it, but it's a similar topic, but it elicits an entirely different thought process, right? So when you ask yourself, okay, what am I afraid of? Let's say, okay, I'm afraid of public speaking. Okay, why am I afraid of public speaking? Okay, well, I had, you know, one time I spoke in front of people and they made fun of me, okay? So I am now it's not that I'm afraid of public speaking. I'm afraid of people making fun of me, right? So that's what I'm actually afraid of. Now why am I afraid of people making fun of me? Okay, well, it's because I'm putting too much value in the opinions of other people about me. So now what is that indicative of? Well, that's indicative that I don't have a strong sense of self worth, that I can't stand on my own, right? So now you've worked, you've laddered this all the way to now something you could actually work on, which is increasing my own self worth, right? So that's where I just don't think people ask themselves the right questions or they don't ask enough questions of themselves to work to a point when they actually get something they can solve. Right? Because the first step to fixing a problem is identifying the problem. But everybody stops at I'm afraid of public speaking. So public speaking is the problem. It's like, no, it's deeper than that, right? You've got to ask yourself those following questions to get to the actual problem that now you can fix, right? So it's just something that, like since that was brought up earlier, like you've got to work through that. Like, if you're going to solve those problems, you have to actually work yourself through them. And it's not fun to ask yourself those questions, right? It's not fun to do that. Like, it is something that is. Is painful. It's uncomfortable, right? It takes time. It takes being honest with yourself. But like, to me, that's how you know, you get through those fears is like actually working it all the way back, you know?

I love, I love that you did that. You just said that. Because I was literally thinking about that yesterday. And I was just thinking on my walk yesterday, I was thinking about how people, so many people are afraid to get out of their comfort zone. Like, we just, people just in general, obviously, we just don't like to be uncomfortable. Okay, so I'm on my walk and many times, like, we've talked about the importance of our silent walks, right? Like our no input walks. But for whatever reason yesterday I was like, no, I don't want to be a no input walk. I want to have music in. So I put music in and then I took it out or my. My airpod died or something. And I was immediately very uncomfortable. And I was like, this sucks. Like, I don't have music now. I'm no input. But then I was thinking, why am I uncomfortable? Why am I feeling uncomfort in this moment? And it's like, not. You can't just stop there. You have to take it all the way down to the root. I'm uncomfortable in this moment because this is forcing me to be in my thoughts. And I don't like my thoughts right now. I don't feel very good about where I'm at, which is why I wanted to avoid them. So, like, that itself was the root of the problem. And so that's exactly what you're talking about with. You have to go deeper and figure out what the reason is why you are avoiding that. And once you can do that, because so many people say, okay, I want to change like this and that, but how do you change? How do you. How do you learn all these new behaviors? And it's all about. You have to continue to peel back layers to where the actual core is to learn. Okay, this is the problem. Now I can choose a different pathway. Now I can choose a different action. Yes, it may be uncomfortable, but we know, and we've talked about it so many times before on this podcast, like, everything in life worth having is on the other side of being uncomfortable. Like, if you stay comfortable, you will stay in the Same spot forever. And in our comfort zone, this is where our fear is. Because we don't. We're afraid to go outside of it for whatever reason. So you have to be able to peel back the layers and figure out what the root of that discomfort or that fear is.

Yeah. And I think that one thing that's important, and I want to get back to the Iron Man.

Yeah, yeah.

But one thing I think is important is that they're like, there's a stop point that you also have to stop asking yourself the questions. And you just have to go though, too, take action. Because I will also tell you, as somebody, you know, proclaimed mindset master.

But I've actually taken it too far. Right to where then? Okay, let's say I peel back all these layers and identify what the actual problem is. Then I spend another week thinking about, okay, what's the perfect solution for that? And then if this happens, then that happens. Then I end up working myself back to where I came from. So, like, once you actually get to, okay, this is what I'm afraid of. Like using the example from earlier, if self worth is the problem, okay, well, how do I increase my self worth? Well, I got to do things that make me proud of me. All right, well, that's going to be attacking my fitness journey. That's going to be improving my financial situation. That's going to be finishing this project. That's going to be whatever it is, like, just go do. Right? And it may not actually fix you. It may not actually fix the problem. Right. But to me, and this is another topic, like, I firmly believe that in any area of life that you are attacking, there's all. There's a predetermined amount of mistakes that you can make. Right? So let's say there's a hundred mistakes that you can make. Well, every mistake that you make, you're that much closer to figuring it out. Right. It's not that you're not meant for it or you don't have it or you're not good enough, you know, you're just one step closer to figuring it out.

So.

But to speak to the. The question about the Ironman 70.3 or just kind of talking about my experience with that, I. I think it's important context to understand that this wasn't my first Iron Man 70.3.

Right.

Like, I actually did an Iron Man 70.3 back in 2019 in Chattanooga. Okay. And for those of you who don't know What Iron Man 70.3 is, it's a triathlon. It's a swim, bike run, and 7.3 is a half Iron Man. So it's a 1.2 mile swim, a 56 mile bike, and then a half marathon, 18.1 mile run. Okay. With my athletic background, biking and running don't. I mean, I could suffer through anything, right?

But swimming, swimming on the other end, I was not raised in water. I'm not really confident in the water. I would say I'm borderline incompetent in the water because I'm not. I don't even really know how to float very well. I don't know how to tread water. Like, there's a lot of things, like, and I grew up in the middle of the woods. Like, we didn't have a lake, we didn't have a pond, we didn't have a pool. Like my friends didn't have, have pools. Like, we went to the river once a year and the river's like five feet deep, you know, so it's like there's. There wasn't a lot of experience with water.

And so for that first Iron Man, I put a lot of work into the swim, you know, in a pool. But I did not really prepare myself for open water swimming in the Tennessee river with 4,000 of my closest friends. And for those of you that have never swam in open water, like, I'm not saying just going out and jumping off a lake, jumping off a boat into a lake, right? Or, you know, just hanging out, like, I mean, genuinely saying, hey, I'm going to swim from point A to point B, you know, like intentionally. It's a total mind game because you, like, you're so used to swimming in the pool, you could see the bottom, you could see in front of you, you could see your. Your arms. You can see everything. You go into open water, especially a lake or river, it's pitch black. You look down, you can't see nothing. You can't hear nothing. You can't really feel your limbs. It's like a sensory deprivation tank that you're also supposed to somehow swim 1.2 miles in. Um, but I made it in 2019. I made it through the first couple hundred meters okay. I think strictly off of adrenaline and not really what was going on, but about 200 meters in, I went to take a breath and I had somebody dunk me as I was taking a breath. So I'm in the middle of the Tennessee river, surrounded by hundreds of people swimming over top of me, kicking me, punching me, like. And I just had a complete and total panic attack. And in full transparency, you know, I made about 200 meters. So I had about 1700 meters left. I would say 1600 of those last 1700 meters I did on my back. Like, literally just on my back floating, trying not to drown. Like, that was literally, like, I was completely removed from trying to do it. Well, it was just survive, right? And I've actually posted some pictures on my Instagram before you can see my face when I got out of the water. And even my dad, you know, my best friend, like, been my guy my entire life, he told me, he's like, there was something wrong with you when you got out of the water. He's like, I, I. It seemed like you just got out of a literal fight for your life. And I was like, because I did.

Yeah.

And so finished the, finished the Iron man in Chattanooga. And honestly, I put that monster in the corner for about five years. I never went back to open water swimming. I didn't even get in a pool. Right? And so, like, no, I was just like, hey, I did it. Check that box. I'm done. Right? But working here at first form, you get roped into things, you know, inadvertently. And your CEO south was walking around one day just saying, hey, are you in? And obviously, I am always in. And so then it was about June. I realized I had just committed to another Ironman 70.3.

And.

This is where the fear thing starts to kick in. Okay. Because it's also important to understand that fear and how it manipulates you is not always the same. Right? Because the, the fear actually had, like, warped itself into, like, an unfounded confidence in that I was not going to have the same issue that I had in 2019. And I was like, man, I'm in better shape because I am than I was in 2019. I'm more mentally tough now. Like, I know I'm just gonna be able to go out there and get through it. So I didn't really practice swimming, right? I just sweat. I biked and I ran because I hadn't been doing any of that. And I said, I'll just get through the swim. Well, we did a practice triathlon at our CEO's property. He has a lake. And I jumped in and about 50 meters in. It was right back to 2019. Absolute panic attack. We were supposed to do. He has a 300 meter loop. We were supposed to do three laps and then go, do, you know, our bike and our run. I did not even complete a single lap. Okay. And now this is about eight weeks before I'm supposed to Jump into the river and do 1.2 mile swim. And I couldn't even swim 300 meters in the open water. And I will tell you, I made it back to the dock because I had to swim off to the bank. Stood on the bank, swam a little bit further, if you want to call it that, because it certainly wasn't swimming.

Flipped over my back, grabbed my swim buoy, like, and then got on the dock. And every thought in my brain was, all right, like, no, this is. I wish this was an over exaggeration. I was like, how can I injure myself so I can get out of this? Like, that's how afraid I was of having to get back in that water and swim, right? And I mean, I was. You can ask my wife. Like, I came home and I was not in a good mood, you know, because I biked and I ran fine. Like, it was good, but I was not a good mood. And I was like, man, I like. Because I wasn't only a good mood because I didn't do well. I was also disappointed in myself for, like, thinking about, how am I going to get out of this?

And I literally. Next day, like, I just. And I think this is an important thing, that I don't want to be lost in this, because this is a part of the whole lesson is if you understand that fear is always going to be there, you then learn how to start asking yourself or telling yourself, like, in spite of how I feel, this is how I need to act, right? And like, I told myself, like, look, and this is the benefit of having a group of people around you that are going to push you outside of your comfort zone. Like, I knew that there was no way that I could go back to Sal and say, hey, I'm out, or Will or DJ or any of these other guys that I had committed to doing this with teach Jeremy. Like, all these guys. Like, there was no way that I could go back and say, hey, I'm out, right? So I signed up for a pool membership the next day. And I mean, for the. You guys follow along. I mean, every day I was in that pool, I was essentially waterboarding myself. And I did not make much progress for the first four weeks. I mean, even four weeks out from the Ironman, like, I was really struggling to even swim 100 meters in the pool. And then one day.

It just kind of all clicked and I got really comfortable in the pool. Okay. And so, I mean, I ended up, I think, swimming like a thousand meters without stopping. So I was like, all right, cool. Like I'm good. Like, I'm. I broke through this barrier, right? Well, we then do another practice, right? And the same exact thing happens and I freak out again. Now, now I know that I've practiced swimming. I'm back into where I need to be. I can swim a thousand meters in a pool. Like now I know that, like, there's something about this, you know, open water that is just got its grips in me, in my, you know, and in my brain. And.

What I will tell you is I didn't get much better. Like, I, yes, I swam a mile in the pool and all that. But like going into the weekend of the Iron man, like, I was still terrified of the swimming. They like, completely. And you can ask my wife, you can ask my mom because they were with me for the weekend. Like, I did not talk much. I was thinking the entire time. There was also the potential that the swim was going to get canceled because of some, you know, water quality stuff. So, like, I was still unsure until the morning of if we were going to have to swim. So I'm having to juggle like, facing this fear or not. Like, but it also not being my choice. Like, because I was in the camp, I was like, man, the swims canceled. I had to go through this. Well, I, I just get to bike and run and, you know, I didn't have to do it, but I didn't opt out. Like, you know, it was, it was out of my hands, you know.

And like, even to the point where like, I forced my mom and my wife to accompany me to the river the day before just so I could get in the water. I was like, tomorrow morning can't be the first thing I get in the water. And so that's kind of the lead up to this. And you know, a lot I haven't shared this, but I only slept for about two hours the night before the Iron, I bet because I was so terrified. And, and this is not an over exaggeration and I haven't shared this on social media yet. But like, I had a genuine fear that I wasn't gonna get out of that water. Like, because if you guys don't know how kind of Ironmans are set up, like you have the 1.2 mile swim and there's, you know, there's kayaks out there, right? But there's fairly well spaced out and like, if you have a freak out, like you're, you're kind of on your own, you know, and for at least a little bit of time. And so there's. And People have, you know, unfortunately, in open water events, you know, passed away. And you know, and that's, it's, it's horrible when that happens. And you know, I, I, I don't even really want to go down that hole or the rabbit hole. But like, it was a genuine fear. Like, I remember, like, when I kissed my wife, I was like, man, that might be the last time I kissed my wife. Like that. That's where my head was at getting into this, okay?

But I will tell you, okay? And I'm not saying there's things that are dangerous that you shouldn't push through, right? But the fact of the matter is I was wearing a wetsuit, which basically is a light full body life preserver. I had completed it before, so I knew a worst case scenario, I could flip over on my back, right? Like, there's all these things that, like, I knew that were realities that like I was, I was more than likely going to be fine, but I still had that in the back of my head. And what I, what I learned is, you know, I, I do you just have to put yourself in a position when you're facing fears that like, you don't have another option, right? Like you, you have to somehow manufacture a situation where you don't have another option. And I didn't at that point. Like, I mean, I put on my wetsuit, I put on my swim cap, we were in the swim corral, like, there's no going back now. And I made it through the first little bit fairly well. And I was like, actually starting to feel good.

And I noticed how I started talking to myself when I was doing well, right? And it was, I was telling, it's like, hey, dude, I'm proud of you for getting out of here. Like, I, that's me talking to me like, you. Not even eight weeks ago, you couldn't swim 100 meters in the water. You're terrified of the open water. Like, this is a long swim. Like, but you're out here and you're doing it and I'm proud of you. And that got me to keep going. But I had a, I had a breakdown moment because one, I ended up swimming backwards at one point and a guy in a paddle board was like, hey, man, that way. And I'm like, oh, yeah, got it. But about, I think it was like 500ish meters in, you know, I, I grabbed on a kayak to fix my goggles because I got some water in my goggles and I took my goggles off and I noticed that my My anti fog spray gotten in my left eye and it irritated it so bad that my left eye was completely hazed over. Like I could not see. Like I could see shapes and light in my left eye, but I could not see out of it. And at that moment, everything in me was like, this is, this is an example of what's going to happen. Something bad. This is, this is just the first straw. It's going to go bad, dude. Something you do better do. Better not let go of this kayak. Like have them take you out of the water. Like, this is, this is your chance to save yourself, right? And at that moment I was like, man, I have a choice into which which way I talk to myself or which voice I listen to, right? Because I think that's an important thing when you're facing fear. Like a lot of people say, well, I just can't. I can't talk to myself positively, okay? Which I get, right? I'm sure there's people listening. I'm sure you guys can understand, like in some of those worst moments you've been in, like, you don't have the ability to say things positively to yourself, right? And so I realized I couldn't necessarily manufacture that I'm proud of me stuff anymore, but I had a choice on whether I was going to listen to that voice or not, right? And I basically just recited myself throughout the rest of the swim. Don't listen to that voice, right? Don't listen to that voice. Don't listen to that voice. And by using that, that then gave me the power to get back to, hey, I'm proud of you, right? And I really just broke it down chunk by chunk. Hey, swim from this buoy to that buoy, from that buoy to that booty.

I'm a guy. But from this movie to that movie to that movie to that movie, like just broke it down chunk by chunk, right? And every time I would make another stop and say, okay, well if you made it that far, you can make it the next one. Okay, well if you made it this far, then you can make it to the next one. Like I had to manufacture that self belief. But it all started with the choice of not listening to that voice. And you know, I got through it. It was very slow. Took a lot longer than I had anticipated it taking.

But I will tell you now, on the other side of this, you know, that singular event may be, that singular swim may be the most impactful thing for my confidence in my mental health that I have ever been through in my entire life. I was even talking to Jenna, like leading up to it, I was not in a good headspace for obvious reasons. I was thinking about dying pretty much every day. But getting through that, I was like, man, there's nothing that I can't do because I was legitimately, I legitimately faced my biggest fear, which is a lot of our biggest fears is the fear of death. Like, I faced it head on and I got through it. You know, it wasn't pretty, but I, I got through it. And I mean it's, it has made a world of a difference in my. I'm way calmer, I'm not as anxious. Like, I'm sleeping better. Like, there's so many things that I pulled away from that. And my biggest lesson is, you know, for the, the facing of the fear is just don't listen to that voice. Right? Like, and you know, I got through the bike, got through the run and you know, still not happy with my, my time. But.

I said set a goal to do another one next year and I'll do a full iron man in 2026. And that's kind of my thing of like, okay, if you can swim 1.2, even deathly afraid, well, let's go swim 2.4. You know, like that's kind of the, the story of the Iron man and kind of what I learned going through.

That I love literally just by taking action, one action after another. I love that I heard a.

Well, Liz and I both read that book. We talk about it all the time. That book worthy and I think I even posted about it yesterday the. That self doubt and self belief both take the exact same amount of energy to manifest into something that hasn't even happened yet. So like you're going to have self doubt, you're going to have like that's what he was just saying with the two voices like self doubt or self belief, they're both going to be there. And sometimes when you are facing your fears.

That self belief, it's not there. It can be a whisper and the self doubt can just be screaming. That's the thing is you have to be able to.

To. Well, my, my. So. And I don't certainly like I. Because I would say nine times out of ten, yes, you're correct. There's a whisper and then there's a screaming. But there are times where the whisper is not even there. Right? Like, and that's where like you, the only option you have is don't listen to that one. There's not another thing to listen to. You don't have self belief, there's not even a whisper, right? Because I can tell you in that water at times there was not even a whisper, right? Like there was nothing, it was all negative the entire time. So sometimes, and that's where it goes back to the, in spite of how I feel like I'm not going to listen to that voice and I'm going to keep going forward. It doesn't even feel good. It's not, it's uncomfortable. But I said I was going to do this, so I have to do this, right? So that's where like I would say, yes, the vast majority of the time they're both happening, but I do believe personally from going through that process that there are times where the whisper is not even there and the only option is just not to listen to that, you know. And I think it's an important thing because that's where I, in my experience in mentoring people over the years, something they've struggled with is man, I just can't, I can't believe in myself or I don't believe in myself or they have a lot of self doubt and, and they again, like I said earlier, they try to eradicate fear, right. And replace it with self belief. And like sometimes you're not like there is enough against you that you maybe aren't able to believe or come up with anything positive, but you made a commitment or you made a decision to do a certain thing that you've got to go anyway regardless of there being absolutely zero self belief. Right. Because you know, and Andy says this all the time, the work comes before the belief. And one of the ways that I like to talk about is like you have to manufacture the self belief. Like and I, I got a delayed return on my investment, right? Because I didn't get it while I was in the swim and I didn't even really get into the bike in the run. Like I've gotten it after the fact, right. That self belief didn't help me in the moment, but it's helped me now because I just decided to go forward in spite of not having any at the moment, if that makes sense.

Yeah. Do you like, do you believe in the statement that action kills fear?

I would say so. I, I, I've said and talked about before like action cures fear, procrastination, insights, terror.

Okay.

But what I will tell you is going through that process, I don't know if it is purely just action. I think it's action that leads to accomplishment cures fear. Okay. And what I mean by that Is because, like, I had swam in the open water several times. Like I was telling my wife and my. My mother on the Saturday before the race. I'm like, I'm. I feel so backwards because I'm deathly terrified of getting in this water. But that's all I can think about, is I need to go get in this water. Right. So I was taking action. I was getting in there. I swam. I practiced the day before, but it was the accomplishment of actually getting what I was afraid of done that then cured my fear. So I think it's action that leads to accomplishment cures fear, not just action in general. And I think that's why that fear didn't go away for me, even in some of my practice open water swims, is because I still had yet to accomplish what I was actually afraid of, which was the swim in the actual event, not just open water swimming in and of itself. Right. So that's where I think that there's got to be some accomplishment tied to it, to Mark, to you, like, clearly and objectively that, like, you overcame this fear. So if that makes sense.

Yeah. You.

You said something earlier that really resonated with me when you said you were at Sal's doing the practice swim, and you kind of asked yourself, like, it's all about the questions and, like, getting to that point where you can keep asking yourself, okay, why am I feeling this way? But you asked yourself, or you told yourself, like, okay, if I don't do this, I have to go back and face Sal. Or like, so that resonates with me, because that's something I always try to ask myself, is, okay, if I don't do this thing that's scaring me, what's the alternative? And then I have to think about, okay, like, if I don't. I mean, it comes down to even, like a workout. If I don't go and do that workout that I just really don't feel like doing, I don't feel like getting uncomfortable with that. What's the alternative? I know. I know I'm going to feel like crap. I know my energy is going to be low. I know I'm going to beat myself up because I didn't do it or. But, like, that resonates with me. And I think that's something that a lot of people can and should get in the practice of is like, you don't want to go do this thing that scares you. You don't want to take action. What's the alternative if you don't?

Well, and here's the thing. And what I. And I love that you brought that up because you already know the alternative, Right? Right. Like, that's one of my biggest things that I like, for me, like, I knew the alternative of not doing it was living with this fear, the worst feeling. Right? So I knew that if I didn't change something, that I already knew that I was going to have this anxiety about open water. Like it was always gonna be there. Right. I take this into fitness, right? Or, you know, like, oh, I don't want to go work out. Well, what happens if you don't? I don't want to attract my food. Okay. All these different things, like, you already know what happens. It's the state in which you're already in.

Sure.

If you're unhappy in that state, then in what world is not changing anything going to get you a different result? Right? So like, to me, that's one of my biggest, you know, I would say tips or piece of advice of things to remember. Like, if you're struggling to face your fears, understand the reality of the fact that you already know what you get if you don't do it. And clearly you're unhappy with that. Otherwise you wouldn't want to change. Right? Otherwise you wouldn't be trying to push yourself forward or you wouldn't have the idea to lose weight, gain weight, get healthier, go do this, whatever it is. Like, there's something about you that you're unhappy with and that's okay. Like, I'm not one of those self love people that says you should love every part of yourself. Like, look, no, like there are parts of you that need to improve. Everybody's depending upon you improving them too. Your spouse, your kids, your family, your society. Like, everybody's depending upon you to become the best version of you. Right? And so when you identify these parts of yourself that you want to improve, right? Like, you have to understand that, like, you already know what you get if you don't improve them. And clearly, like I said, you're not happy with that. So you, if nothing. Like, this is one of the best, like, simple. The simplest piece of advice that I think it's cliche and people say it all the time, and I think a lot of times cliches get a bad rap because everybody says them, but it's like, yo, if everybody says them, they're probably very, very true, is if nothing changes, nothing changes. Like you're wanting something to change without changing anything. Like.

What? You know, like, do you expect your bank account to go up without saving money like, when we put these into other contexts or other situations, everybody's like, well, no, it's like, okay, well, why would you expect you to get better if you don't have to do something that you're not good at? Right?

It's like, I literally, I literally this morning heard. I heard this and I wrote it down. I'm like, this is exactly what you are saying. In order to somewhere you've never been, you're going to have to do some things you've never done. And it's exactly the same as nothing changes if nothing changes. And I was like, gosh, if you've.

Never been to Florida, okay, you're gonna have to drive on some roads that you've never driven on before.

There you go.

It's really like a lot of. And this is what I think the importance of what we talked about at the beginning of asking yourselves these questions. Like, if you really. Anything you're afraid of, ask yourself the right questions. And you boil it down into reality. It's very plain. And then it's just a choice, right? Like, and then it's just a choice. And I think that's the, the thing that it's not different for you. It's not different for me. It's not there for Jenna. It's not different for Liz. Like, it's not. It's not different. Like, the, The. A lot of the majority of things that people struggle with in life boil down to the same fundamental realities. Right. And it's not capability, it's willingness to face those realities and adapt to those realities that will dictate whether you become who you want to become or not.

I think a lot of the time, too, is that once people finally do actually face them, they're like, that wasn't as bad as I was expecting. It's. I love that quote. Was it? Hermosi said it was. That fear is a mile wide and an inch deep. So it looks like this big scary thing that it's holding you back. And then you actually do it and you're like, okay, I, you know, I almost let that hold me back from achieving X, Y and Z in life, you know, and so we, we paint this picture in our mind.

And what if you. What again? Like, the fear of falling when you're a child? What if you never face that? You'd still be crawling.

So true. Yep.

And that's what I'm saying when we boil these things down, like, I also think that's a place to manufacture self belief from though, too, is like, when you boil these things down, like if I would have never faced my fear of falling, then I would still be crawling and I wouldn't be walking. Right? So clearly I have the ability to overcome my fears. Even me as a child, as an infant, right. I, as an infant had greater courage and greater resilience than I do now. As an adult. You start working through these things and it's like, man, that's the only option is to go do it. Because I'm not going to say, you know, six month older, I guess I wasn't walking at six months. 12 month old. TJ is not tougher than 29 year old TJ. DJ Right, right. Like so. And I think that when you put yourself in those situations, again, not giving yourself an option, like you have to face those realities and just put it through. And again, since you've done it before, you can do it again for sure.

I think that there's so, I mean, we talk about it again all the time is you don't realize how much is actually in your control. So when you feel like you're being held back in life, you feel like you can't push forward, you can't achieve X, Y and Z or whatever. It's like there's so many. All of that is still in your control. And most of the time.

Can I offer an alternative perspective to that?

Yes. Okay.

I actually think that it's an overestimation of what's in your control that limits people more than an underestimation of what's in your control. Okay. What I mean by that is you think you can control other people's opinions.

So you try to change people's opinions and they don't change. And then, so you say, why? I, I clearly I couldn't do anything about that. Right. So it's an overestimation that leads to a negative feedback loop of, I tried to control it, it didn't work. I guess when I try, things don't change. Right? So it's an overestimation. And when you understand that the only thing that you have in your control, okay, is your attitude and your effort, okay? Like that is the only thing you control. The choices that you make are the only thing that you can control. Then you understand, okay, if all I can control are the choices that I make, then you actually grade when you take control of those choices, what is the outcome of that? And that creates a positive feedback loop that actually creates the momentum that you're looking for. Right. So now to what you're saying, yes. There are a lot of things in our control when we control the minimal things that we're actually in control of, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I think I was come. I mean, coming at it more of a perspective of like so many people will use that as an excuse, saying, well, I tried. Or they. And they take the victim mindset.

Oh, yeah.

You know what I mean? And it's like once you get out of that and realize that you are in control of how you react to situations and, you know, all the other things, it's.

I just think it, man, the. The victim mentality manifests from an overestimation of what's in your control.

Yeah.

And what you can do about it. Because again, like I said, like, if I'm upset with the political environment, Right. Like, okay, what control do I actually have that how I vote in the words that I speak. Right. And I can go to meetings, I can do this different stuff, but at the end of the day, the outcome of it is going to be the outcome of it. And so that doesn't mean that if I went to all those meetings and I voted for the people I wanted to vote for and I did all these different things, that. That was. That was not worth it. It just means I control what I control. I couldn't control the outcome. Yeah, right. Like, I did what I could do and I feel good about that. Right. So I think that's where you have to be mindful of, you know, that, that aspect of that. Because I do agree with what you're saying, but I think that's what. Because then people don't take control of what is actually in their control, Right. Because they, you know, try to. This. That creates victim mentality and then it's just. It's a whole old.

Yeah, no, I like that. I've never really thought about it that way. Explaining it that way. I like that.

Simple. Like this is. This is one of the things that I think is very impactful for anybody is when you are overwhelmed. Go back to the basics.

When you're overwhelmed, go back to the basics. If everything's going a million miles an hour, go back to the basics. The most simplest of things, right? Like investing into your family, investing into yourself, taking care of your body, like taking care of your mind. Like that those. What you actually can control when things are going a million miles an hour, what you'll realize is once you take back control of that, then your perspective on everything else, like it doesn't cause as much an emotional charge from you, right. Like when Things go bad at work. Well, if I was truly controlling what I control and doing the best that I could, then I'm not going to get emotionally upset about that and throwing off kilter because, like, there was only so much control. Control I had. And I did my part. Right. So just something to think about a bit.

I like that.

I think, yeah, it's already like we were going to tie it into someone's health and fitness journey. But that, like, as you're listening to this, applying that to where you are at and what. Whatever is holding you back from taking action, that fear of holding you back from taking. That you're being held back from taking action on, just everything we've talked about applies to that.

Which I think one of the things to speak specifically about a fitness journey.

Yeah.

Okay. One of the things, because I've been doing this for a while, you know, hundreds of thousands of people, directly or indirectly at this point, one of the biggest things is the opinions of other people.

Yes.

Fear of going into the gym, the fear of being the person that comes with Tupperware or all these different things. Okay, well, I have one simple question for you. Has there ever been a time in your life where you try to do something positive for somebody and they took it the wrong way?

Yeah, I would say, yeah. Like, again, like, there's a, you know, you try to. You say hi to somebody at the grocery store, Right. And they're like, they're bothered by it, they're annoyed by. They're irritated by it. Right. So what does that show us? That shows that you. You have zero control over how other people think or how other people act.

Yep.

Okay, so that. My point. When you boil it down to that, then you understand I do not have the control over the opinions of other people. Of me. I do not have control over that. What I have control over is what I do, why I do it and how I do it. Okay. And other people are going to think whatever they think, because even in that, you know, really rudimentary example, I'm at the grocery store, I smile and I say hi and I wave at somebody and they scowl at me. Right. Like I was in control of what I did, why I did it and how I did it, but they still took it a completely different way, even though I meant nothing other than a. Just a simple pleasantry.

Right.

So when you scale that up to your fitness journey. Oh, the people are going to judge me. People? Yes, they are. Yes, they are. Okay. They absolutely are. It's going to happen.

Okay.

But you're not in control of that. What are you doing? Why are you doing it? How are you doing? Right? Like, and my thing is like what you, like, you're clearly upset, right. With how people think about you right now, right. Or yourself and how you feel about yourself right now. Right. It goes back to nothing changes. Nothing changes, right? Like if you are unhappy with what you see in the mirror, okay. And you don't do anything to change that, well, then clearly you are comfortable with being unhappy with yourself. And if you say no to that, well, then what are you doing about it? Because you can't. There's not like a. You don't get to live in both environments, right. And so that's what I would just say. It's like, understand, you don't have the control over the opinions of other people. Of you. You ha. You do not have that. And the more time you spend trying to control that, the more unhappy you are going to become. You got to do. You have to decide what am I going to do, why am I going to do it and how I'm going to do it and let everything else happen. Because you could have the purest of intentions in every situation and somebody's going to take it the wrong way. So then my question is, are you going to let other people hinder what you think and feel about yourself? Because if you are, then okay, but then just accept where you're at, right? But don't, don't fight that because you're never going to change it.

There was so much good information and value that just happened in the last like 30, 40 minutes, guys. So hopefully you took some notes on that. Hopefully. I'm sure you're going to want to listen to this again. I will be listening to it back through and probably multiple times because there's so much stuff that I'm personally taking away from this. So again, thank you guys so much. Are you, do you have anything to add to this, Liz?

No, it was very inspiring story. And like, again, I relate to that, TJ because that is the part that holds me back is the fear of the water. So thank you for sharing your story.

I'm in. T.J. yes.

Let's go. You see how you do that?

Oh, I know what we wanted to end with, we wanted to end with asking you to share the best, like if you could think of one thing, one piece of advice that you've been given in life to this day, at 29 years old, what's the best piece of advice you've been given? And it doesn't have to do any with anything that we just talked about, but I know it will resonate with someone.

The universe has changed. Life is opinion.

I think that people spend too much time worrying about change and thinking they can stop change and they can control change. But, like, the universe is change. Like, it is always changing. Your life is your opinion. So the power in that, to break that out is, like, how you view things is how you do things. Okay? So since you understand, you cannot stop change because that's always going to happen. The only thing you're in control of is your opinion of said change. Is it for you or is it against you? Okay? And look, every situation has both sides of the coin. You can't change the situation, but you can change how you look at the situation. Right? And that's where, like the obstacles the Way is an incredible book by Ron Holiday. It's just simply understanding, is this change an obstacle or an opportunity? Right. Because you can find opportunity in every perceived obstacle.

Yes.

Right. Like, again, the. I'm struggling to. To find an example. Right? Like, you have a, you know, people that, you know, a business goes out of business. Right. That's dismal for one group and a great opportunity for the other group. Okay? But even the people that lost the business, you. You get to decide at that point to say, hey, was this a good thing or a bad thing? Either is going to manifest itself. It's either going to move you to your next opportunity, your new idea or your next idea or your better idea, or it's going to be the reason why you're never successful.

100.

But how you choose to look at it is what's going to dictate that. So the universe has changed. Life is opinion. And understand you are in complete control of your. Your opinion. It's either a positive one or it's a negative one. And only one is going to move you forward. One is going to keep you exactly where you're at.

Always comes back to that attitude about everything. That's. Love it. I love it. Thank you so much, tj. I really do. I appreciate you taking a precious hour out of your day. We know you're busy and this means a lot that we got to have you on today.

Yeah. No, I appreciate you guys. It's been awesome to see what you guys are doing. I'm excited for the future for you guys as you continue to grow. And more importantly, just see how many lives you change because you've changed a ton up to this point. I'm excited to see how many more you guys change moving forward?

We're just getting started. Yeah, that's what it's all about. But thank you all for tuning in and as always, please continue sharing the show. We so appreciate you guys. And this is like that's the mission, that's why we started this podcast, is just to be able to continue to spread that message and reach as many people as possible. So you guys are helping us do that and thank you so much.

And we are going to. We'll tag TJ's Instagram and stuff in the show notes. You guys can start following him to watch his training for the next year, for the next Iron man that he does. But he always, always provides tons of great value on his Instagram too. So he's a good person to follow. So we'll put him in the show notes so you guys can connect with him and otherwise, thank you guys for listening and we will talk to you all next week.

Thanks, guys.