Jane Slack-Smith Live - The Renovation Magician puts magic into your portfolio for 2022 - AUS Prop.

Interesting.

Hello. We are live on launch and taking your property investing to the next level. How are you going today, Jane?

I am wonderful. Thank you for inviting me.

It's an absolute pleasure. Like, it's, it's. Thank you for coming on. It's, it's fantastic to get some of your caliber on the show and just to sort of, just to really understand what your, what your insights and your wisdom and your knowledge is. So I'm excited and the audience should be throwing the comments, the questions and any sort of thoughts because I know there's going to be a lot of that. There's going to be a lot of back and forth. So how are you, Joe? Mr. Mr. Joe Tucker. How you going, mate?

I'm well, I'm, I'm, I'm enjoying your background now. We've got a little bit bit more to see than just the blank wall. I've got the, I've got the amazing picture. You've got that Jane. Jane's got amazing curtains set up where we're a professional outfit here. I tell you, it's only taking us.

Like, taking us a year to do it. Like, what was it? I was thinking about it today. I was like, I was thinking about a couple of days ago, why don't I just turn desk around and I have this fantastic background, which is.

Yeah, I have to say I thought I was going to be pulling down the caliber of the show by not ironing the background, but I'm okay.

Looks like it's a wall.

We'll go with that. We'll go with that.

Fear no more. But I'm very excited. Jeff, how are you today, mate?

Yeah, the Aussies are absolutely belting the cricket. So whenever that's happening, it's a good day, Joe. It's a good day. I know people might be cricket fans, but I absolute. The end. So was loving that but also just was quite productive in the second half of the afternoon, so. Second half the afternoon. How many, how many halves of the afternoon are there? So there's only one. So second half of the day, so really, really good. Loving it. And just I bounce into these when they Wednesday night conversation. So I'm good and I'm keen to get to the quote of the week which let's, let's get out. Let's let our guests go first because that's the, that's the thing to do.

Well, my quote of the week is rust never sleeps.

Well, that makes sense. Yeah, I would totally agree, Russ.

It will make sense later.

Oh, wow.

Rust can't Sleep. Okay, well, give us a little hint. What the heck does that mean?

Well, so it's funny because I was working with my mentor in the last couple of weeks and I was saying, you know, you really have to be so vigilant and on your vision and, and not lose focus and, you know, otherwise, you know, everything just kind of gets you down and you know, the world with all the things that you just have to do with your day to day life. But if you hold to your vision, you know, and really set some guideposts on how you're going to create things during the day, then, you know, you're really on top of it. But if you just step back for a moment or you let doubts or whatever it is enter your mindset, the rust creeps in because rust never sleeps.

Oh, I like it.

That was a hint. But I mean, that was probably more than you know. I think you just explained it. So.

So much more.

I love it. What is yours, Jeff? What have you got for us today?

Okay, so mine's kind of.

I don't even.

I think this is an original, so it might not make any sense. I was saying my quote of the week is time is the only currency we will not be able to make any. Make or find any more of. So it's kind of deep. The reason I would say that is because everybody's sort of worried about, oh, you can't get money. Or there's all these sort of things that all these networking, all those kind of things. But those things are infinite. You can always do more networking. I suppose the thing that you can't create more of is time. So I think that's because we often we. Times we do things that we do so many things and we just, we don't respect their own time. So I wanted to put that message out there.

There you go. Happy days. That makes sense. Hey, I'm, I'm all for it. I'm all about saving time. So I'm going to be quick and brief with mine. So my quote of the week is by Napoleon Bonaparte. He has a whole heap of amazing, amazing quotes. But this one is the greatest danger occurs at the moment of victory. And I guess that that is around complacency. Right? It's like right towards the end of the line and you get complacent. So from a property perspective, I thought this one was quite nice because I can start to see people buying anything, like they're buying assets and properties that they haven't done their due diligence on. They're they're waiving their right for a cooling off period. They're just jumping straight into properties. And that's a 20, 21 thing that you can do and get away with it. But I don't think it's going to be a 2022 thing that you're going to be.

I don't know if you can ever get away with. Joanne, can you.

I mean, no, not, not in the long term. That's a good point. Not in the long term. So I love that one.

Anyways, another quote that comes to me. Can I throw a second in?

You can, you're allowed next week.

You hear everyone say, you know, a rising tide raises all boats. Well, on your point, Joe, we're at that part in the market at the moment where the tide's going out and we're actually getting to see what the reality is. So we're in an incredible time in history where all markets rose and now we get to see in relation to each other in the entire same economic cycle which ones are going to really perform and which ones won't.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Well, how do we spot the right ones? That's the, that's the question. Not, not for right now I guess, but we'll get to that, I'm sure. Let's do it. Okay, great. Well, let's jump into our first sponsor and then we will introduce this wonderful lady that we've got here. Let's do this button.

Too slow, Joe, too slow.

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That's a really cool.

Scott's just done that for three of my clients Geraldton, Cairns and Gladstone. Like insane service.

Interesting. Yeah I kind of want to unpack Gladstone because Gladstone's a. Yeah we sort of. Yeah even sort of these mining towns and I'm actually going to do something really I mean I don't want to, I don't want to get too sidetracked but Gladstone. What. What was the. Can I just ask what was the. We'll introduce you but I want to know first what was the purpose of the reason in the person selling Gladstone was it what are they One of.

Many purchases that were done in a A with investment companies that got them into mining towns and this was a vacant block of land LNG plant takes a thousand people to build the plant two people to turn the switch on after everyone leaves and it's built and the fallout to that was it didn't sustain the property prices and was a portfolio killer in the portfolio that was just eating borrowing capacity and actually churning through the cash flow so it just had to go.

Yeah but yeah I think that there is starting to see some green shoots but I think I caution I'm not saying people should buy, they shouldn't buy there recommendations here but I just sort of see people say oh yeah there's all these kind of positives. I'm like well have you actually seen what those particular markets can and will probably do? Again not saying they will but Marimba for example even Port Hedland I mean I sort of. I was looking at median prices for those places but that does tails into you though. You are. I was listening to somebody talk about yourself and you so people who don't know Jane, I don't know how you don't know Jane but you are an author, a podcaster of an awesome podcast media commentator, property coach, mortgage broker of the year twice and even a top financial influencer contest but the thing that I love about you though is that you are about helping everyday Aussies kind of to achieve financial freedom through your property. Six thinks your property success Yeah, I was going to say your success secret, but so for me, that's the exciting, most exciting thing about you. And the thing I want to kind of ask you though, that we maybe this is a scary question. What is something that people don't know about you? That's.

Yeah.

What is something that people don't know about you?

Look, you know, I've been talking about myself for like 15 years, so I'm pretty sure there's no secrets. Some people who may not have, you know, seen anything on me may not know. I was an explosives engineer, mining engineer, 20 years. And I first go to work underground in coal mines. When it became legal in 1989 in New South Wales, all the, all the operators went out on strike and I managed to bring back. I came from a farm, right? Everyone just had to pitch in. There really wasn't any. Girls did this, boys did that. If someone had to, you know, plow a field, you just jump on the tractor. So it was kind of foreign to me. Where you turn up underground, they go, no, you know, you would expect that. You can't work. I'm like, really? I wish you told my dad that.

1989 was a great year for many reasons. That is one of the. There's an older.

You gotta age me now, right? Jeff.

I think it's the year Jeff was born.

There you go. Mind you, I turned 51 two weeks ago, so, you know, rocking the next half century at least.

Yeah. Raise the ton. So. And you'll be educating, I'm sure, till at least another 40, 45 years. So what I want to say, the other first sort of question we ask people is tell us about your first purchase. So what was the purpose behind it and how do we go?

Yeah, so I, as I said I was a mining engineer and I was really, you know, I was 28, 29 footloose, fancy free. And my husband, my now husband, my boyfriend there was like, you know, there's something in this property thing, you know, we really should check it out. You know, he had had a property in New Zealand and my parents have never owned their own home. Like my dad was a farm worker who just used to go working from farm to farm and a house would come with the job, right. So, and, and we, we kind of started, you know, looking into it and my boss used to say to me, I can't wait for you to get a mortgage because it means that you're stuck with me for life. You have to have a job. And I was like, there's no way I'm getting a mortgage. So I only thought you could buy a home, right? White picket fence. And I was like, no, no, there's something more to this. And he'd been mowing someone's lawn on his little lawn mowing business in New Zealand. And this guy was like 25 and had a property. Todd mowed the lawn. He's like, oh, come and do my other properties. I'm like, how do you have like that many properties? And he said, well, the first one's the hardest and then you build on that. And so, and Todd was really motivated by that. And I was being the good engineer and researcher. So I read 120 books on properties. I went to all those two hour free sessions and it got to the stage where, you know, they're all the same at a point everyone says the same things and like, you know, I, I got broke and this is how I got out of it and I lost everything. And this is how I came back. And so I used to take a notebook in and I used to write down on one side the content and, and on the other side I started critiquing how they presented their stories because I was like, well this is kind of interesting, I could learn from this. And then I was just like, if I could just write down all the things everyone did wrong, I'll just jump over that and not do it. So I kind of had the list of, you know, don't trust someone else with your money, don't listen to a property spruger, but run to the back of the room and buy my blah blah off the plant. And so with that kind of integrity we started to do a number of other, you know, courses and listen to people. And there was a guy, I can't remember his name. Oh, I know what was his name. He used to have like a down at Queen Victorian markets, used to sell like moccasins. And he went, he ended up going to jail for something completely different. But anyhow, he had like this kind of course and I couldn't afford it, but Todd could afford it. So he went off and did this weekend course. He's like, this guy has like all this methodology and research into how you can find properties and I'd only ever heard of people, you know, just kind of throwing out, you know, and then you get a property and you do this. There wasn't how to get the property or where to buy the property or what type of property and, and so someone's there who probably in the comments knows who I'm talking about. And, and so we. He went, he could afford to do the course and he'd wake up to end and go, oh my gosh, you know, what if we did this? What if this was the twist? What if we did that? And I was, I was an explosives engineer, right? So everything was low risk. It was like consequence and likelihood and risk. So if I couldn't de risk something, I wasn't interested. So I thought, okay, there's got to be a way to do this. So we kind of drew a 10 kilometer circle around CBD Melbourne got rid of 80% of the suburbs who couldn't afford. And it was all around that proximity to workplace, where people needed to live and, you know, good infrastructure and public transport. And I thought, oh, how do I de risk this if I. I could de risk it if I buy the property that most people want or how do I know what most people want? Well, census tells you that, right? So I'm like, okay, I can do that. And what about, I want to be in an area that has more properties, more people looking for properties than properties for rent. How do I work that out? It's like, well, vacancy rates. And I don't want to be spending all my weekends in an area that there's like three sales a month. And 70% of people who are buying are own occupiers buying emotionally. And so I've only got one a month that I'm waiting for. So I want to have a certain number of sales. And then it was like, well, how do I de risk an area that doesn't have renters if I need to rent? And I thought, well, the general number is like 70% of people own their own homes. There must be like 30% of people who rent. I need to have at least 30% renters. And so that became a very clear criteria. And we just started going to every auction. So if every auction we went to, we went for one that was renovated to a really high level and we checked that out and for every 10 we'd go and check out the rental opens as well to see what people are. We're talking about in the rental opens. You know, they've got security or they've got, you know, Caesar Stone benchtops or whatever that was. So I was kind of like doing the. Listening to the conversations. And then so we were doing all of, all of that. And it got to a point where I was like, I still need to de risk this. And there's 15,655 suburbs in Australia. There must be Some that have outperformed the market. And if they've outperformed the market, what characteristics did they have in common? So I studied them and looked at the 10 year growth because we couldn't get 20 year growth with. And we came up with three suburbs. We walked them, went through them and I was like, I need to have another way to make money. I can't bet on me getting this right just with capital growth. So renovation was allowing me very quickly to add value. And if I could understand through research what the property was worth, I could negotiate and get it below the market or you know, secure it before others were looking at and driving the market up. So I can make money now by buying below the market. I could then add renovation to add value and then I could do capital growth. So I had three ways which became the Trident strategy. So the very first property I bought for $425,000 and I had 45,000 in cash, 25,000 went to stamp duty straight up. And I had a 5% deposit. And I knew if I had waited till I had a 20% deposit, that $400,000 property would be 600, could be four or five years time and I'd be buying the equivalent of like $250,000 property now. And I took a personal loan for 50 grand, did a strategic renovation of putting, trying to create $2 for every $1 that I spent, which I had assessed from those high end valuations or renovations that I looked at. And nine months later that $425,000 property was worth $700,000. So whipped out some money and went and buy, started buying in Sydney. And we bought two properties at once under one bill of sale, like going, going 950,000. I took the $425,000 property. My husband took the full $90,000 property. And so we did it to two properties beside each other. So we had an uplift of, you know, over $250,000 in nine months. And we're like, this is kind of.

Wow, economics of scale. Only one Bunnings trip the two properties.

You know, I always thought if I was a superhero, my super weapon of choice would be like builders bog or something. I just bought so much of it, I could do anything with builders.

Bob, I think we've just, we've just encapsulated the whole live session there in that five or eight minute sort of spiel.

I think we're done.

Well, because I think we're done here.

I think we're done here. Thank you.

But I was like wow, that's. You're pretty much just covering all the topics and. But. But no, that's. That. That's a. I'm amazed that you're asking.

You have to come up with new questions now, Jeff.

I'll get as many questions that I have used to live, hopefully. Fingers crossed. I shouldn't say it's bad luck, but. But no, it's interesting because how did you get. How did you sort of understand? Because my first property purchase, I. I'll admit, I had no idea what I was doing. I sort of. I thought, okay, how hard can it be? It's just. You just got to buy a property, right? So it's interesting that you had all these kind of metrics and ideas. I'm just. I'm blown away by the level of analysis and due diligence you had on that. Was that sort of. From your background? How did you kind of come across that?

My idea of relaxing is doing Excel spreadsheets and making macros, you know, so, you know, when I got to do some research and when I didn't have the information, like, I remember, I was like a girl fan of John Edwards from Residex, and he'd put out these amazing prediction reports and things. I was like, if he's got all the information in Australia on all of the suburbs and all of the properties and in a street, he can get down to what he thinks these properties are worth, then if he could work out what the unrenovated properties were selling for and the renovated, that'd be so good. So, you know, rather than ask for forgiveness. Permission, ask for forgiveness. So I made an appointment to go and see him in the offices in North Sydney and Residex. And I was like, so, John, I'm an. I'm a property investor. My name's Jane. It'd be really cool if you had a renovation report that would tell us what suburbs had the most disparity in Australia. And he's like, good idea. How would you do that? So I gave him my formula for making out the difference of pricing disparity in renovation, and out came this extraordinary report. And I remember sitting in his office and this lady came in and said, john, John, we've got a problem. You know, someone's purchased the report for Frankston. He's like, what's the problem? There's 350 pages we have to print and send to them. They'll say, old school, it was great. They had this incredible data, and then they were just printing this stuff to send people reports.

They fax they fax it to them, do they? People still fax though. It is still a thing. I'm just amazed whenever I see. So we should, we should get into Twitter. That's that, that's some great sort of knowledge and I think we could just have a whole show on that. But should we talk about 2021? Like does Joe hinted at it? He's keen to talk about it. Yeah.

Well, I mean, actually before we go into 2021, I'm interested about how things have shifted and changed for you on that, that like 10 kilometer radius now because we're starting to get into that affordability side of things where 10 km from the city is not really feasible anymore. How is that kind of, how is the model? Because I can see a lot of frameworks in what you were talking about that just a solid and they're going to stay, stay like that forever. But how do you factor in that flexibility now? Now what are those kind of recommendations and things looking like?

Yeah, and look, it's a really good idea actually. It's probably worthwhile. I show you. I'm still doing this kind of information all the time. So I'm always trying to look at, you know, what's happening in the market. I might just share my screen so you can have a quick look. You do? Great. Can you see that?

Not yet, but it'll come up. You had to work.

So every single month I get the sqm data research of the last 10 years, capital growth for all the states, all the major capital cities and regional areas in Australia. So you know, if I think about Melbourne, you know, I was drawing this like 10 kilometer map and I was like, what can I afford? And you know, we're talking about price points now of what million and 1.3, you know, 1.7. Like everyday Australians. And my mission is to help everyday Australians get financial security so they can get on with life and live to their, you know, their full passions that they want to pursue and spend more time with their kids at the table. And 50% of divorces end in financial hardship, like full on. Let's just fix that up so we have more, more parents staying at home. So you know, this is no longer the, the area that people can afford. To your point, Jo. So what I look at is, well, when they can't afford these areas, how do we look at the next area? So if we're looking at, you know, oranges are 8%, 9%, 10% now this is over 10 years, right? 10 year capital growth, median capital growth. So I'm looking at the next area. So I've got these oranges, these eights and I've got these, you know, pinks of nines and oranges and oranges pushing on a green like 970. Is that affordable? So you can start seeing this ripple effect. And so all I'm applying, and it's the same methodology I was doing 10 kilometer zone, you know, areas that I could afford that were close to infrastructure, public transport and or acceptable infrastructure for the city. Because some cities don't. It's not public transport, it's access ways to freeways. And then look at, you know, what was affordable or in that price range and buy the best possible property you can. So you know, these oranges, if I.

Pull one out there's right near La Trobe University. If you look at, there's that blue, there's that dark blue one to the, to the left and the right. Which suburb is that? That's Kingsbury. Yeah.

So this is where it gets into. So this is my high level. Like let's come up with a number of suburbs that have the ability, and I can jump into this a little bit further if you would like have the ability for us to really get, get in and start having a look at more, what would you say, more detail around it. So I don't want to be looking at hundreds and hundreds of suburbs. I just want to be having a looking at a certain amount. So I want to start with, you know, what can I afford? So if I'm thinking, okay, I'm in Melbourne and I can afford, I don't know, $600,000 for instance, or 650 just happens to be there and I'm happy to go well below that, down to 400. And I want to be between, you know, 20 kilometers of CBD. I want to know what suburbs are in that area. So I've got a list here of suburbs that have in my price range. But I also have over here, you know, if I look at some of these and I'm looking at these areas here, I've got orange, orange, orange, which is eight, eight, eight, pushing on Deer park. That's a seven. And now I've got, okay, this is in my price range. You know, let me go and have a look at this suburb and get to know it a little bit better. I want to know the surrounding suburbs. So you know, are the close, the suburbs that are closer to town more expensive? Yes. Is there pricing pressure on them? Yes. What has been. What's the percentage of renters? Remember 30% was my number. You know what's the number of sold? You know what's been the 10 year growth? Has it outperformed what that city has done? So I was looking at and now I've created obviously the suburb selector software to make this easy for people. But you know, this is what I was doing by my hand and this is what I was teaching. I was giving people these spreadsheets going go to the back of the book and get this, go to census and get the three bedroom, you know the information on the typical house. You know, go to SQM research and get the vacancy rate, go to census and get the number of renters. So you know, I was looking at these areas and going okay, so what does this look like statistically as a area? Because Deer park would be on my list of pricing pressure here. I then go and see if I could afford it, if I can afford it, happy days. And then I'd start doing the extra research. But then there's this human factor and this is where when we, when we have a chat about that Jeff, it gets really interesting because this is where the 2021 we talk about, you know, the tides rise for everyone and now it's coming out, coming back and there's really interesting thing, observations I have around. You know, there was the rush to the regions, I think there's the retreat from the regions coming on. There was the oh my goodness, you know, Perth and Perth and Darwin have finally, you know, had their day. They're about to come back and then they start retreating. To see the equilibrium is except for one capital city which is completely out and doing something very strange.

Interesting. Okay, so tell us, tell us more because that's interesting. Retreat from the region, retreat from the cities and returns of the, I mean there's those words use that I mentioned that because I'm not so sold on this whole return to the office thing because I mean I personally kind of work in an office kind of situation. I'm. If somebody says I have to go back to an office I'm going to say well I don't know, I'm going to go and find. But anyway, okay, maybe I'm the exceptions of all but I think a lot.

Of people, I think what you're experiencing is, is very real and where I've been looking at like you know what census tell me most people want the three bedroom house and you know this information is easy to find. You just go into census and go into look up you know, 2016 numbers and the problem is we're out, right. We're busting for next year census data. But there's a lot of people feeling like you're feeling they're comfortable at working from home and the, you know, extra two hours a day not you know, being on public transport or in cars. This is fantastic. Or being able to go down to the, you know, the, I don't know, the nice family retreat for a long weekend and leaving on the Friday, you know, all of that's going on. There is a little bit of pushback. People are on call for like you know, 15 hours a day. Everyone's, you know, they just assume that you're around so you can, you're in lockdown so you can start at 7:30. And weekends I'm seeing more and more of my weekends getting meetings in them because people are like well we're all in lockdown, we may as well have a meeting. There's interesting things about some of the IT companies like the Googles and some of them tech companies that have said well it seems you're working from home actually you know, we're not going to pay you as much as we did. And they're pulling their, their incomes back 10 to 20% even though it's costing less because they're not paying, paying office. But this it does bear into. So I'm going to make two points. The first point is three bedroom house is what everyone wants. I'm now like three bedroom plus the one is okay, so let's have a look at the four bedroom. And I had a dumpy client that I worked with on Friday and we had three properties around that reservoir, Glenroy, Cobberg, north, north area of Melbourne in particular. And it was like he had to get his offer in. And I was doing these deal reviews of these three areas and, and I each one of them had the bungalow or the extra retreat that you know, where you could work from and you know, I think that's something that we need to consider. But we look at like the federation houses and the properties of old. All of the reception areas were in the front and the doing area and the family areas are out the back. And then we had the mums went to work in the 60s and they're only seeing the kids around cooking time when they're rushing in they're like well I kind of want that lifestyle. Everyone come in and let's talk while we cook. But it takes 10, 15, 20 years to change the way that we have our houses set up. And now we've got this new phenomenon where we're like, have you had a double vax? You can stay in the front of the house while we hang out the back. You know, I don't know. But you know, people are working more from home and, and they're more comfortable about it. So I think, you know, adding that plus one bedroom to the typical property is something we'll get to see more and more of. And having, you know, the room where people can work quite comfortably from home and they have the little studios with that on, you know, iron curtain behind them so that, you know, we look semi professional but we're wearing our sneakers whilst we're wearing our nice clothes and we, we have that opportunity and I think this is what. Can I go on to my next point now? Do you want to ask anything about that?

Well, I feel like you just answered the question, you asked the questions that we've got coming and then you just answer them.

So I'm happy with that because you did mention one city is a bit of an outlier. So. Which, I mean, I kind of want to tease you.

Well, let me just finish off this one thing because this retreat from the regions that you mentioned, so picture this. Like we've got the, and I've actually got some really interesting data about the Gen Ys and millennials. Like they're very conservative bunch and they to some degree like being seen by the boss and being, you know, mentored and, and you know, they're the biggest savers of COVID Like the number one and two savers of people who saved money in Covid were the numbers.

Because I couldn't go on Tiki tours, Jane. I couldn't. I wasn't able to go. I mean, I'm over exactly right.

And I've done some. I spoke to a group, crypto group last night. You know, they made all their money, they want to put their money in property. And I spoke to a share marketing group last Tuesday night and they want to bring their money to property. And we were talking about these things but you know, you looked at the crypto numbers and most of the short term traders are over 55 and the younger people are the. I want to stay into the investment for a bit longer. Like it's, it's interesting. So we've got this young group of people who kind of like to have that workplace. We've got the 35 to 45. He's kind of like they're on the trajectory for their, you know, their career path, but they typically have kids that are going into high school. Or in high school. So they're not going to be moving to, you know, Dubbo High. God bless Dubbo. I'm from Dubbo, but Dubbo High, you know, they want to have their kin kids at Kings, for instance, I don't know. So, you know, I don't think you'll see that age group going, I'm up and off to the Highlands or I'm up and off to Toowoomba or, you know, I don't think we're going to see that. And, and I was questioning that. And the other thing is, you know, there is an older generation. I'm going to say mothers are older, a lot of corporate mothers are older. And so you're the 42 year old mum turning up the school gates with a kid going to Kindy and everyone else is 25. Right. And we know that a lot of those relationships and relationships as you age go to where you hang out the most and you know, as parents, we're hanging out with kids, sports, etc. So I think what's happened is there is a bit of, oh, I don't really fit in to the country. I think thought the life in the country would be good. There's a lot of resentment from the country people. I remember when I moved to Mudgi as a mining engineer, they said, you're not going to be a local to. You got grandparents in the graveyard. I was like, fair enough. When they were alive, I could guess I could get them buried here. But you know, like, that was the mentality. But now we've got their kids, can't afford, can't work in the city, they're moving back to the towns but can't rent because a lot of people are moving from the city to the country, renting first to check it out. The prices of the properties are going up, so the kids can't even afford the properties. So there's some of that underlying resentment too. So I think we will.

What is all this? What does all this mean?

What does all this retreat back from the regions and what are we seeing? The regions are starting to dip, so the regions pushed up and I'm like, the tide is going out. What's going to happen to the regions? And we're starting to see them.

Core logic data doesn't say that though. Jane, like, if I get reminded of every month by Braden, he tells me, oh, the regions are going fantastic. And I'm like, well, yeah, I can't argue they, they have significantly outperformed the capital.

They definitely, they're definitely coming Back though, you see, you can start seeing that they're coming back and so we're getting like what Perth and Darwin has experienced in the last two months. Just watch the speed of the growth.

But what about, what about when, if you coming back, you're not going to be able to afford to come back. Like what are you coming back to?

I know so. And that's what's going to happen with rentals, right. They're going to have to come back and they're going to have to find somewhere to live and we've already got renting rental pressure. You know, who knows if they're going to open the borders. We had what, 2019, we had 180,000 people migrate to Australia. They're talking about doubling that in the next few years. So we're going to have that rental pressure and they're going to work for a year. How long, Jeff, you're a broker. Year or two and go all of a sudden I can now get a loan. I'm going to be buying a house.

Yeah, it's going to be.

Yeah.

And then we'll get into what 2022 and beyond potentially looks like. But 2021, it's. I mean you've seen a couple of markets, seen Perth and Darwin and, and there are parts of Perth. I've seen some posts out there. People are still sort of selecting areas. But I, I was. Yeah, I'm not sure I'm comfortable necessarily about Perth. But it hasn't shot up, it hasn't.

Done anything yet and you need to have, you don't want to be first in right at the beginning, right at the, the top of the clock. You want to kind of wait until you start to see some shoots coming along.

I don't even understand the market though, Joe. Like I'm in the east and I.

Think, Jeff, the reason I can't understand the market is the market's this linked to commodities and we look at the iron ore price, we look at it coming up, we look at what's happening with China, that, that kind of trade wars, you know, that's iron ore is pretty much the last thing that they need that they haven't, you know, given us a bit of a whack over the hand with. And you know, that is the, the mining market of Perth. That's what drives Perth and if that.

If that falls and who knows? Yeah, we could see. So what is that one city before we kind of move on to the crux of the crux, the renovation. Because I think we really want to give, we promised actionable and all that sort of stuff. But what's the one city that you. I think I know what it is. But, but could you let us in on the secret chain, please?

Okay, so as I said, I'm watching this, the tide go out. And I'm watching because as a student of long term data, I try to find the information and look at where I think the market is going. And so there's the numbers and then there's the human factor. And it's funny, I saw your interview with Peter Kalises last week and he'd come and talk to my mentoring group and we, we were getting into the data and his spreadsheets of his analysis of what cities had taken the leading growth over the last 30 years. And we're kind of breaking down, doing some analysis over that. And you know, spoiler alert, at any one time, pretty much any city in Australia has been the number one city, right? A capital city. And so I was looking at this, but you know, the Sydney and Melbourne and they are the powerhouse economy cities. Melbourne pre Covid was due to be the biggest capital city population wise in Australia by 20, 30, 32, 33, 35, whatever that looks like now. And then when people move to Australia, they go to where the jobs are, which is Sydney and Melbourne. And you know, I've got three people from Columbia who work for me and they all googled the most livable, safest city in Australia and Melbourne came up and they moved here. Now if I'm sitting outside of Australia and you know, and looking at, you know, where is and we've kind of, as much as it's been a bit of a pain in the ass, let's face it, we've kind of handled Covid better than a lot of countries but we've got this safety and security of an island. And when you look at where people are looking at, and especially people in America, they're looking at, you know, where to buy properties, they're looking at Australia. Now we have obviously missed a couple of the cycles. A couple of countries have opened up and had overseas students come in already. We've missed that cycle. But it looked like we were, you know, June next year about to open up the borders again. So I looked at this and I was like, well, where are people going to go? They usually land Sydney and Melbourne. You know, Louis Christopher came and talked to my mentoring group on Sunday and we're really trying to drill him on, you know, affordability and the boom and bust report and you know, what was his thoughts of the future. And he was saying that he's been in working with the government and presenting to the government on affordability. And there's been a bit of a coherence in voice through a number of the property experts or data driven scientists and market researchers saying that they really need to put infrastructure into the regions and they believe that that's where, you know, to make things affordable. That's where they need to be putting the money so that they can, you know, really get people from the major cities into the region.

So, you know, to make things affordable for the city.

Yeah. And so I'm watching this like, yeah, Sydney, Melbourne, this is where the, the major people come. I'm watching all of the tech growth in Adelaide and looking a lot of these companies that are setting up these amazing little tech hubs there quietly, you know, there's all these kind of things happening and then we've got Brisbane.

And that's what I was gonna say. Let's, let's kind of, let's get the punchline is Brisbane.

Is my outlier. I cannot predict Brism. I can't. I can never predict Canberra because, you know, labor gets in and hires everyone and everyone comes and moves to Canberra. And then Liberal gets in and they sack everyone and get all the, the fancy expenses.

The thing about Canberra is this is the wage. I mean, having known a few people in Canberra, I didn't understand it. But, but Canberra, the salaries there are so high. So people can afford to keep buying and they're comfortable paying that sort of million dollars plus very easily. Even though it's a smaller.

It's a weird. My sister was chief of staff to one of the senators there. And you go to a party and they go, you know, what level are you? Like, that's the conversation. Because everyone works in government 35. We know that you're on 100. If you're a level 36, you're 175. Like by defining your level, you know exactly who you're about to date, what they earn. Right. Interesting. But Canberra, I can never predict Canberra and I wish I could, but then there's, and then there's Hobart and Hobart's had its time, the sun, all the investors got there 2019, Airbnb. You know, there's a lot of environmental retreating people there and there's a lot. The people who are moving there are older retirees. It's kind of a weird dynamic happening in Hobart. But Brisbane is weird because I think if I. What we will see in 2022 is we're going to see people Googling, you know, best place to live in Australia, and Brisbane's going to come up. And that's how their government has handled Covid. So anecdotally, I had three clients in the last month who told me. And this is not a statistically relevant section of community, but I've tested this with Peter Wardgent, Peter Kalisis and Louie and, And a couple of others. And one family are in Byron. They have a son that needs to have an operation that in Brisbane. If the borders are closed, they can't get there. So mum and son have moved to Brisbane. Dad and the kids are back in Byron. Another mother when they're about to close down lockdown Sydney, has a child on spectrum who needs to be socialized at school. She and the kids stay in Brisbane while dad and the high school kids stayed in Sydney. Another client down here in Melbourne. Every time their darling little girl has to go into ICU about once a month, they have to go into lockdown when they go home. And the high school kids can't go to school. So mum and daughter have moved to Brisbane. Dad and kids stay here. So I think, you know, it's splitting families up until the rest of the family can catch up. But not only is it affordable, it actually has been open pretty much all of the time. And people up there, you speak to people in Brisbane and they're like, what do you mean you can't go to the pub or you can't have a party? And what do you. You know, it's. They've had a few kind of shutdowns. And I think, you know, Brisbane is going to be no longer the bridesmaid. And 2.3% capital growth over the last 10 years. Like, you know, I told my sister to buy in Brisbane four years ago, and she's still like, when's this going to happen? Like, it should. Well, it is and it will.

I'm not. I'm not moving to Brisbane, Jane. I'm just. It's not. It's not going to happen. I don't know. Nice to visit Brisbane.

Mind you, it's nice. It's like when you go to Perth. I remember getting in a. In a taxi in Perth and this guy said, oh, you know, there's going to be some traffic. And I was like, oh, really? He said, oh, you're from B, are you? And I was like, yeah. I said, what's traffic? Said it's five to five. There's going to be traffic jam. It's always this Time of day, it's going to be five to seven minutes. I was like, that's okay. I think I'll stay in the taxi. Like, you know, it's a whole different world. It's like a big country town. Everyone's friendly, interesting.

Yeah, that was, that was what Peter Kleisos said about Adelaide. He's like, welcome to Adelaide, big old country town.

Yeah, come over for dinner.

Yeah, but, but that Covid situation, the way that they've handled Covid is, is a temporary. I mean, we're buying for the next 20 years. We're not buying for the next 20 months.

Or are we?

Well, I hope not.

I don't know. We're starting to look at Europe and we're looking at how they're treating this new strain and they're starting to lock down again. And as soon as we start talking about you're going to have another Christmas without your family or having that indecision of whether you can get to them or not, and, you know, what does life look like after this? I think, you know that that kind of retreat to Southeast Queensland is something that could be sustained. I'm not moving, you're not moving, Jeff's not moving. But there are people thinking about it.

Personally, I personally don't know anybody, you know, I, I know a lot of people. I don't know anybody that's moved to Queensland. So I, I mean, thank you.

Because I was watch, I was waiting for these, what do you call them, like doomsdayers. I was waiting for the doomsdays to go, okay, this is the zombie apocalypse. We're going to get our piece of land and we're going to, you know, sewage tanks on all this kind of stuff. I only had one client like that in the last two years is like, okay, we're going self sufficient. We're going to like shut down. We've got a river and because I was like, oh, I wonder if they're going to come out of the woodwork. Maybe I'm not the kind of person that they'd ring, but, you know, I only had one of those. But yeah, it's interesting people. I've got mentoring students that have been supporting buying in Brisbane. And it's got to the stage where the agent will say, we're going to auction. We'll have our first open home on Saturday. 24 contracts are out on Saturday afternoon. We're negotiating on Sunday to put in the best and final offer. And I'm doing comparable prices so they can come up with a negotiation plan. I'm like, I can't, I cannot support a price over 620 but you're going to have to go 650 to get this. And they're going 650. There's a 670 offer but they get the 650 because they've got no finance included and it's a risk and I've never ever recommended anyone to do that in my life unless I know they've got another 50 in the bank that they can come to the party. The valve doesn't stack up but that's how they're securing properties up there. And come Monday the border's open and a happy, happy days, you know, everyone's gonna be rushing up there and it is the short term.

That also means people can come back though. So I mean I'm just gonna, I'm gonna play devil's advocate and say I think people are maybe paying a little too much and, and maybe it's, I don't know, not all liquid is his goal. But let's let the flight.

Is it the flight to affordability? Is that what we're looking at?

Yeah, it's an affordable. I mean you sell your 2 million dollar home in Kew, pay off the mortgage, buy a $1 million mansion in Brisbane and happy days, you know, and I think also, I mean I had dinner with Rob Flux from the Property Developers Network and you know, he's based in Brisbane, he's down in Melbourne at the moment and he can't get back unless, you know, he goes into quarantine for 14 days at home, blah, blah, blah, you know, people are sick of that and they're like, we don't have any of this kind of stuff in Brisbane, you know, so. And I think that, you know, I've always talked about investing for the long term and when I look at my, over the last 15 years of, you know, coaching and teaching and you know, working with people in the mortgage business or the education business, it always comes down to those with a clear vision and a long term vision of what they want to connect with and do and having the mindset of understanding what their current reality is and getting that bridge and understanding, you know, how they can buy now in proven areas. And you know, to me Sydney and Melbourne have always been the proven areas and the satellite cities, the Geelongs, Wollongongs and Newcastles work from home has allowed us to actually work from those areas, you know, two or three days a week and commute, which is great. But Brisbane is somewhere that I'VE you know, I really haven't with my whole heart really wanted to say I think there's some real legs in this. They're going to be long term and once the borders are open, I think we'll see more. And I don't believe the Olympics are the bump, the cream, because we know, you know, the studies that I've done in looking at Melbourne and Sydney post Olympics, Gold coast, post G20 Expo, Brisbane, post Expo, there was all infrastructure builds that created that property market kind of boom in those areas. And after those events, everything kind of died. And if you think about Brisbane getting the Olympics, they were actually the last man standing. And it was because they had most of the infrastructure in place or planned that was bought. No one's moving there to build. Right. So I don't think that I never, after my, I did that analysis, I wasn't too convinced that that's what the option there was an opportunity based on the Olympics. But there's going to be a run up definitely of interest and there'll be expenditure put into hotels and retail.

So I'm interested about like renovation because that's a strategy. It doesn't rely on heavy market uplift to keep it alive. Right. You can make money in, and obviously you want to be buying in good capital growth locations, but you can make your money now as well as in the future. So how does, how does renovation kind of tie into the, the kind of purchases that you're seeing clients making making today is 2021, because I don't feel like 2021 was the year of the renovation, but I feel like 2022 might be the year of 2022 and 23. I think you're gonna.

I know a lot of people doing renovations, Joe, so I think, I think 2021 was definitely one. People were doing a lot of renovation.

I've seen it on their home. Jeff.

Yeah, yeah. Or on their home. Or maybe not the investment property. I mean, I, I suppose I'm just calling in it over there. I don't know. I don't go around people's doors knocking on and saying, are you, Is this the, is this your rental, Is this your investment property or is this a home you're living in? I don't do that, but I've seen, I've seen it around and even sort of. Yeah, a lot of people have done that.

But anyway, what are your thoughts, Jane?

I have, let me think. Like, for instance, I had a chat to a client recently. I love renovation. Renovation is, you know, my strategy is how you make, you know, you spend a dollar, you make $2 every day of the week. If you put a dollar into an ATM and $2 back popped out like happy days, right, Rich man, very soon. And so I, and I love renovation for so many reasons. One is untapping that equity that allows you to go again, if you have the servicing to do that, pushing the rents up or sustaining a really good renter for a long period of time and reducing vacancies. And I don't know about you guys, but, you know, I've got seven investment properties, and during COVID you know, half of them kind of tapped me for a rent reduction in some way, you know. And so, you know, that that's kind of a bit painful. But if you've got a really good rent renter and you've already, you know, above the market really, with your rents because you've got a superior product, there was capacity for, for me to come down. But renovation is, is interesting because at the moment, you know, we had the bushfires, we had the reduction in timbers, we've got the, the distribution channel problems, which is pushed up the, you know, additional prices for the, the components that we need for kitchens and bathrooms. And, you know, just some of the fundamentals for the builders. We've seen building companies go broke. You know, they've had, you know, some significant issues and people lose their, their dough on it and their deposits. And that's because this cost has gone up. And, you know, we've. I've had some works that had to be done on a, on a unit in Sydney. And, you know, we just couldn't get people there because there was a lot of the people that were in the hotspots and so a lot of the trades. So, you know, it really, it wasn't a strategy that was able to be with confidence put in place and knowing that you could do a renovation on time and on budget because the unknown.

Like, logistically speaking, like, renovations can be very easy to organize, but it can definitely get very difficult very quickly and throw in those logistical issues, it just doesn't. It doesn't become worth it mentally. Like.

And this is the thing, right? Most people think that renovation is an active strategy for now, but it can be almost like land banking. You know, you've got a tenant in place, don't kick them out to renovate. And that's even more so now. It's like, well, buying a property with that pricing disparity between unrenovated and renovated properties that allow you to make a profit Cover your costs and cover your holding costs. You know, happy days. Do that and bank it. And you know, it's interesting because I was talking to, I've talked to a few people in the last few days around, well, how can you renovation with a kick, right? So you know, buying a good growth area, buying an area that's going up in value with a capital growth back end. But what could be a kick, a kick could be an area, a property that has potential to have a development, maybe a one into two. And essentially, you know, when I talk about the Trident strategy, which is taking the property to a higher and better use, I use renovation, some people use development, some subdivision, granny flats, whatever. Everyone co living. People have different ways of doing what they think that is. But you know, if you bought a property with renovation potential for the near term and the growth opportunity in three to five years, it could actually have enough equity to actually make it a development site that allows you to do, you know, a JV with a developer or do it yourself, you know, or you know, for those that are looking for, you know, the potential uplift of cash flow. Now, you know, you could do the renovation that could, you know, improve your cash flow. You could do like the micro apartment type living opportunities. You've got a lot of old people who have a lot of spare rooms, who do not want to go into nursing homes, who want to age in place. You know, by doing a, I don't know, 20, 30, $40,000 Renault and creating half the house into a separate unit so that they can get a revenue. You know, there's, I think there's some really great innovations and I think, you know, what we'll see in the coming years is that these conservative, I'm going to say millennial Gen Ys who are saving the money pretty shitty that they can't afford a house because of affordability, don't really trust crypto. All they can do is put their money in shares. Super is like forever away. And you know, they're looking at ways and I think we'll see some amazing, you know, disruptive type of fractional investing opportunities. And you know, I'm, I'm an advisor on a number of prop techs and you know, they just excite me. I'm seeing, I'm proppy P R O P I E. I'm seeing some really innovative buying solutions on Realify. I'm seeing ways of disrupting how people buy. So I'm seeing some of these come through and I think that there's going to be Great opportunities. But renovation is definitely a strategy. It's just not the do we rush in and do it now strategy. It's like get the property with the same renovation criteria that you would do and then bank it or you know, look at the property you have at the moment and go, well, how can I take that to even better higher use?

Okay, I like it. I'm all about. I love a good Renault and I love a Renault with an extra add on kick as well. Like where you can do the development later on.

Do.

One of the things that you were talking about before was the disparity between renovated and unrenovated. So can you talk to that? Like why is, why is that disparity important?

Okay, I, I have a slide on this too. Do you want me to share?

Okay, well actually yeah, let's, let's do that. Well, let's, let's jump into our second slide sponsor and then we'll, we'll get the beautiful.

I have some questions about the renovation from finance effect as well. And I know you used. You're a renovation queen plus a broker. A broker. I don't know. Master as well.

Extraordinaire, I think is what you're magician.

I think we.

Said a lot of things in those promos.

Okay, let's get, let's do this and.

Exactly.

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Thanks very much, Joe. That was there we Go. We are back. Is Joe back? That's, that's the question. So, so we're going to share a slide and talk. And here we go. Oh, wow.

Okay. So one of the things that people often ask me is why renovations fail. So the very first reason is there's no strategy that they're like, okay, I'm going to flip the property. They go and buy a property, they can't sell it, and they're like, well, rented out. Now the reality is if you're flipping a property, you're targeting the streets where the owner occupiers are. And when you're renting, you're targeting a complete different renovation and the different area, even in the suburb. So strategy is really important to understand before you buy the property. There's no suburb selection that understanding pricing pressure, understanding the fundamentals that drive the suburbs, but then they're buying the wrong property. And this is like what, what we were just talking about was that, you know, often a lot of suburbs are not created equal. And if renovations are strategy, the problem is that you can't make money in every suburb. And that's where I see people making a lot of mistakes around buying the wrong property and not understanding it. Now this is just once a month I run my algorithm with SQM research data and you know, the current median price in Australia is around 850 or something or other. And I was just trying to work out, you know, is there suburbs in Australia in every state that are popping up that, you know, have got all of the pricing pressure, the renting concentration, the vacancy rates? You know, there are suburbs. Of the eight and a half thousand suburbs that I assess every month, there's about 300 that get on my list, my, my starting list. The rest do not make any sense to buy in. And then you go in and do that next understanding of, well, are there, is there enough pricing disparity in the street? So, you know, what I'm looking at is how much is a renovated property and how much is an unrenovated property selling for. And it's the difference between those two that allow me to understand what the pricing disparity is. So that disparity is just a fancy word for saying the difference between the renovated and the unrenovated. And a lot of properties that kind of look like they need a renovation, you know, can't actually make money. So we're talking about profitability here. We're not talking about, you know, just because it looks unrenovated means that you can become a Renovator and make some money out of it. And then the next thing that happens is people then over capitalize and they renovate to their own taste. You know, they have the champagne kind of taste of the Caesar stone, waterfall, bench tops where in actual fact, you know, a lemonade, really nice lemonade will do. And, and I think, you know, when you understand that you're buying in a suburb at $400,000 and it's going to cost you for a struck, you know, a cosmetic renovation, $40,000 and you want to make $2 every $1. So we're, you know, we're at 480 and it cost you in stamp duty 20. We're talking about finding unrenovated properties at 400 and then renovated properties at 500. That's that pricing disparity that you need to make money after you've got holding costs and all those other things in there as well. And I think that's the missing piece that a lot of people just don't get.

How do you do that on mass? Like how do you find the disparity between like yeah, how do you get that?

Yeah, it's a great question. Unfortunately it is a real manual process. So the way that I do this is that I get my students to do it is you know, we'll get RP data for instance and we'll say houses, three to four bedroom houses in Mount Gravatt that have been sold in the last six months. And then we download that to an Excel spreadsheet and then I go into SQM research. I'm like well what's the typical size block? It's 600 to 800 square meters. So I just do a sort. And so you might end up with 25 properties. And then unfortunately it is a manual exercise that goes is this property high set, low set on the right side of the road, wrong side of the road, renovated, unrenovated, or is it a partial renovation? So, or is it just upgraded in the 80s? And so you've got, you know, the area in the suburb, you've got, you know, high set, low set, whatever that's defined for your area. It might be swimming pools and you know the thing that, that defines that type of property. And then you have renovated, unrenovated or updated. And so then very quickly I can go through and go okay, so how much per square meter are all the three bedroom renovated high set properties selling for? So for instance, one of my mentoring students, I had her do this for Wyndham west. And so we Knew specifically what the high set and the low set, the renovated and unrenovated prices points were in that suburb. We knew there was no pricing disparity between the unrenovated and renovated low set, but there was in the high set. So that's the criteria she gave her buyer's agent in this suburb. I would like to find an unrenovated at this price point high set property in the one of the other three suburbs that she had and gave to the buyer's agent. She, she said you can have high set or low set, but this is the price point for each of them. So very specific to the buyer's agent. So unfortunately it's a little manual to get that information. But geez, the power of being specific and getting the property you want, it's amazing.

Have you thought of ways like, what's the.

What's.

How have you, like, what have you tried to come up with?

How do you do it? How do you do it automatically is Joe. Joe wants it quicker. He doesn't want to do the work.

He wants to understand. See, here's the thing, right? I get this. So you know, my dot map, I had people doing that with dots, right? I run workshops. I've got people around Australia that hate my guts because they've been dotting these dot map. You know, glass of wine turns a bottle, it's night nights. Some people have been doing for years. And, and you know, I, I was, I had actually had brain surgery two years ago and I'm laying in hospital after brain surgery and I'm like, what if my brain doesn't work? How people get it? How can I teach this? I thought, oh, I bet you I could digitize it. So I, whilst laying in hospital, found some. I think it was in Ukraine, Ukraine designer on Fiverr and had him design the dot maps for me. And then I was like, what? You know, I've got people to do all this research on, you know, the vacancy rates and what if I could do that really quickly? Because I've got the suburb selector software where they can go through and do it and so now I can do that in seven seconds. So I like the way you're thinking, Joe, because I'm like, how can I find if it's renovated and unrenovated? Now there's getting to be some really clever AI in identifying renovation pictures, like is this a stool or is it a table or whatever. So I think we're going to get some picture type information there. You know the renovation report that Residex used To put out that RP data stopped after they bought Residex really gave us an idea of where that price sat in relation to the entire street. So if there's 100 properties in the street, then they cut them up into 10 percentiles and you could see if there was a number four, like the bottom 40, 30 to 40% was at 400,000 and the 60 to 70% was at 550,000. There's some disparity in there that deserves you to go in and have a little bit further look at it. So there is some hacks. So for instance, I might go and get the suburb report from RP Data for a suburb and it says the 25 percentiles here, the 50s here and the 75s here. Now if I can take the 50 and take 10%, so 50s, 500,000 and I can take a 10 cosmetic Renault and say 50s the amount of the Renault, 50s the amount of the profit. If the 75% is less than 600, it tells me that I can't make a profit in that area generically without going through everything single sale. So I'm always trying to give my students hacks where they can get down from those maybe 300 suburbs in Australia down to the 10. That will really work with the pricing disparity. So I think it's coming.

Yeah, yeah, that, that's where my thought was going as well. There's a lot of AI tech around that, that definitely can be, that can be taken advantage of, especially the way domains giving out their API and you get all the, you can download all the images and just, just store them, run the. Anyway, anyway, that's going, that's going deep. But one, one, one other question I have about the tech side of things is that on your dot maps you created a dot map, right? Just the thing. Have you seen any other metrics that align nicely with the, you know, the thesis outside of vacancy rates? Like have you done any dot maps from. Not just vacancy rates for my dot.

Maps are on the 10 year capital growth.

Oh, well, there you go.

So it's based on growth and pricing pressure.

Are there any other sort of metrics aside?

Are there any other ones that you've done?

It's interesting because, you know, what was Peter saying last week? Professional women move to an area and then all of a sudden the property prices go up. As soon as an area starts burning green, you start seeing the prices go up.

It's like that was your comment.

And then there's like, you know, it's the organic Shops pop up and the gentrific, that's a little bit too late for me. I want to see things before. So what fascinates me at one stage I was in conversations with a group that had IBM, Watson and I was like, these are the things that I want you to go into this big computer to tell me exactly what the lead indicators are that we don't know is it. So it could be something stupid like, golly, the amount of dog food starts going up in the local woolies. You know, people can afford a pet and they, they're more likely to be in a house and therefore, you know, they're more likely to have a higher expenditure. I don't know what it is. I want to know what it is. Is it that they start booking every interstate people, you know, every time a pet barn opens? I know. And so I was listing down and I had like a hundred random things that I wanted Watson to run to go. What do you think? Because I think there is, you know, there is things that start happening where the areas start gentrifying that it might just be people have Stan and they have, you know, Apple, you know, because they can afford two streaming things. So I don't know what it is, but it fascinates me in seeing where the data can lead us.

I must admit, as somebody who, when I first started, I would not have ever completed considered anything like this. And I think I've just, I've got to say I think if, yeah, I think the analysis by paralysis start thinking how many streaming services people have got in the area. But if you can.

I'm just thinking how can we do it quicker? Right?

Let's just go to the Quicker is not always better. I would say I'm kind of a. What, what, what? Minimum effective dose, I would say and kind of let's. Yeah, so that's actually, that's, that's what.

I like about Jane. Your, your analysis is over 10 years. Like you're looking at your dot mat over 10 years. It's not like you can get so as exactly like what Jeff is saying. Like you can look at like the trend over the past six months and you're like, holy, this thing is going down. Everything's going down. But you know, vacancy rates are going down, you know, supply is going down, inventory is going down. Like this is the best place to buy. And then you buy there's. But then it hasn't got the solid fundamentals of any capital growth and you're just like, damn.

It's funny, I had A crypto expert come and talk to my mentoring group on Sunday. And he has been in my mentoring group and we talked about de risking kind of investing in crypto and the potential for property exchange and fractal investing. So here's the funny thing. He applied all of my investing criteria to buy, buy the best possible asset that you can. None of these random alternate kind of, you know, NDIs and buy in the US and all these other things that were NRAs or whatever. Buy the best product Bitcoin, you know, do the research on what the, the estimate growth has been in the past and predict it to the future. Now it's, it's drives me crazy, right? Because what do they have a 20 trip drop and then the next day it went up and I'm just like, this is not my risk profile. I am not a crypto investor. I bought crypto for the first time two weeks ago because I'm using it to mint NFTs for my husband's art. So I'm learning how to do it so that I can start putting his art up so people get prints, physical prints, because I still can't imagine why you just want to an electronic thing. So I'm learning it. So I had to buy crypto so I could actually pay to put his stuff up. And you know, you put in a thousand dollars and they're like Tomorrow it's worth 750. This is why I don't do shares. You know, I much, I much. It's like when you become a millionaire as a property investor, you only find out afterwards because you're like there's no bell rang like that happened like six months ago. Oh, I missed it. You know, that was my goal. And then I missed it with, with shares. You're like I'm a millionaire. No I'm not. I'm a millionaire. No I'm not. And you know, so. But it was interesting to hear how he had used the methodology of, of the, the research by the best possible problem asset that you could at the time and invest based on that research. So yeah, it's interesting times.

Yeah. So I want to. So let's just say somebody's a renovation because I think I want to hear about how to actually do renovation compared to or do renovation from a broker's perspective as well. Because you can't have a foot in both camps. So let's just say I've done a renovation. I've really, I've now 2 to 1 I've gotten that out. I've got A couple of kind of practical questions. So number one, how do you sort of. Because banks evaluations will vary. So how do you advise or help your clients make sure they're getting the best possible valuation on that property?

Yeah, look, it's the. If it's a very quick buy and renovate, what often happens and you know, fast moving market, this can be a little different. But what has happened over the last 15 years, 16 years I've been a mortgage broker, is that most banks will default to the valuation that they've held for the last six months. So if you've actually gone, I bought for $700,000 and I think it's now worth 900. And you go to the bank and they do a destination desktop, they're like, it's 7:20. And you're like, no, you missed the renovation, so you need to have a walk through. I've always. And in my ultimate guide to renovation course, I've actually got a whole module on how to manage to call it influence the valuer.

And so, you know, help them see the value. Yeah, yeah.

I'm not saying manipulate, I'm just saying influence them in a positive way and actually demonstrating the work that you've done and the uplift and the comparable prices now valuers have. I mean these guys go to uni, right. Not like you turn up one day and you're a valuer. They have credentials, they have approve the valuation to their bosses, you know, insurance. Yeah, all, yeah, all of that. So you know, they've done most of 90% of the work before they turn up to the property. So they are expecting what the picture is on, on the website. They're expecting to. They've done a comparable sale by looking at what the pictures look on the website and what you bought it for. Now if they turn up and you spent $40,000 and you bought it for 700 and they say how much did you spend? And you go $40,000. Well guess what, your property is going to be worth $740,000. So when I say influence, it's about saying, you know, when I was doing the research and these were some buying, selling for 700 and I purchased this below market at the time because blah, blah, blah. As you can see, at the time I bought it, these were the other properties that were buying and now the renovated properties are selling for 900 and they have this, this is three of the properties that have recently sold. I have a superior living space but an inferior carport or whatever. So kind of use the language that they Use in the valuation document as well and then put it forward. Don't say, I've spent $40,000. This is equivalent to the value of this $900,000 property. Yeah. And. And you know, and then you've kind of done half the work for them, you know, and it's just like dating you. You know, everything happens in the. The first 30 seconds. You walk into the bar and you're going, this looks all right. Street appeal. Like, you know, the people. I think it was.

It.

Was it Joe? No, it was you, Jeff. Your quote at the top of the the talk today. And you know, it's around. You've done all this work, you've done all this research. You found the property, you've slaved away, you've given up your weekends, your friends don't know your name, your dog doesn't come to you anymore. And you're like, you've got this letterbox that's falling over at the front of the house. You're like, dude, why did you give up? Yeah. And you don't influence the valuer, you know, so, yeah, walk through when you can, make sure you're there and give them your document, say, here's the information and here's the sales. And you know, make. Try to make sure that you can have that conversation and demonstrate the value that you've added to the area and do not give up on, you know, I ran out of budget, so therefore I didn't landscape the front or put in a couple of, you know, trees or whatever it is you do the best paint the door and make sure the doorbell works. And when the value walks in, make it a wow. And you know, the ways that I've done that, I've. I. When I did my first property, walking into a big old house that's been renovated nicely. Floorboards look good, blah, blah. It's great. But walking into an environment where you can sit down and go, this looks kind of nice. And this is set up nice. So I went and got it costed to get it staged, and I think it was like $3,000 to stage the house so I could set the scene. Gave me beautiful photos for when I was trying to rent the property for the last, you know, for 15, 20 years afterwards. But also it, you know, you can't tell me that a value is not influenced between the. The empty, noisy houses you walk through to the house that you've set the environment up for.

Yeah, someone in this group did exactly that. They're like, yeah, I'm getting the value in I'm going to spend 2,500, $3,000 on it because I know. And then they, and then you see the next post, it's like, guess what? They loved it.

I've had students that have gone around their friend's house the weekend before and collected the nicest pieces of furniture. All their friends and, you know, decked out the house so, you know, you don't have to pay the money. We can always be. I'm always looking at ways to save money. And that's like, for instance, the, with the Ultimate Guide of Renovation, I give people the, the trade discount card with Renault Save because I'm like, hell, yeah. During lockdown, we had a Power Pass card that got us into Bunnings when no one else was. Everyone else was doing click and collect. And you know, I think National Tiles, it is the best discount of the builders. Building 500 houses cannot even get the discount that we get with that. So, you know, I'm also, also about renovating strategically on budget, or if I can get the, the products that I want, the quality products that I want a little bit cheaper, even better, more profit for me.

What about selling and flipping? Flipping, flipping property? How does that kind of fit in with your, with your strategy or do a lot of your clients do this? Because this is like the go to, right? Everyone thinks I need to buy, renovate, sell, buy, renovate, sell, and then eventually I'll get to that, that point. But how does that kind of sit this, this day and age now?

In a growing market, flipping can hide a lot of sins. And you know, I remember I had one of my mortgage clients who were, they had done, they had flipped their homes three times and they're like, we're going to give up our job and we're going to start flipping properties. So we are so good at this. And I went back and looked at what the property price was that they'd bought at and the growth in that area in that subsequent three years. They made nothing off the renovation and they're about to give up their jobs and this is. They're putting life savings into it. A lot of people who sign up for that ultimate Guided renovation course come in thinking they want to flip and then they leave thinking, oh my gosh, you know, I'm glad I didn't do it. And you know, I think I've got a whole section in there on flipping because, you know, the numbers, it can work, but you have to be in and out very quickly. You have to know the numbers. You have to be on Budget, you have to be on time. Most people who flip, the biggest problem is they don't have deal flow. They need to move from one property to the next property to quickly. You know, they don't take into account capital gains tax or they buy in. In a company and, you know, they have subsequent problems. So there's. There's a lot of issues that you watch the block and it seems easy. Whereas, you know, Todd, they don't make.

Money on the block, though. That's the thing. I mean.

You have to sell it. Three million bucks. The very first property that they had on the block in, In Bondi, like, I think it was like 2002, we looked at buying that block of units and there was about $2 million of works that had to be done before they could start. The works that the channel, TV channel paid for before they let the people in there. And, you know, it's just, you know, it's. It's smoke, mirrors. I watched the block maybe once every four or five years on the auction show just for a bit of entertainment. That's it. That's fun.

So not recommended to buy. Renault Flip by Renault Flip.

Well, we're not recommending or not recommending anything. Jo. It's not funny.

I would just say just be cautionary. There's some. I've got some clients that do it and they do it really well. They've nailed the numbers. They have a team in place. You know, I had one of my favorite students right at the beginning, Russell, he was like, you know, I just work for the council and I'm 55 and I just. I'm not smart enough to do anything other than follow the bouncing ball. Tell me what to do for the next step and tell me what to do. And he bought this property in Preston. You know, he did like a. It was straight. It was actually an Australian property investor magazine, which made me think that your Australian property investors. API magazine.

Turn it to an acronym. Yeah.

And.

But he, he like bought. He took his long service slave. He did like this in 10 days, did like a $17,000 renovation and had uplift of $70,000. Like, for him, that was extraordinary. But between 2016 or 2014, 2018, he had $250,000 in uplift in value. And in the last three years, he's had that again. So it's like, yes, he made a substantial amount of money for that renovation and could tap in and then bought another property in Brisbane. And. But the growth that he's had a half a million dollars compared to that Original. I mean that's where the money was and that's what people give up where, when they start flipping and, and that's where that's, you know, growth is. Cash flow is going to let you keep holding your properties. So cash flow is very important and it's fantastic at the moment. Right. Because in most of us, you know, our properties pay for themselves. But yeah, it's so true.

My renovation that I did in the start of 2020 grew the same amount in 2021 by capital growth. So like it's like doing a Renault, getting the Renault uplift and then the capital growth does its own Renault for you. And if I sold that thing, I've just paid like another. Because where am I going to put that money? I'm going to put it into another deal anyway. So I've got to re buy into the property that I want to buy and then I paid selling costs and then I've got stamp duty and then capital gains tax. Yeah, it's just one of those things that you need to think and if.

The market catches you out in the middle of that, you know, and it starts declining, you're losing everything. I mean, I had a past student call me. Carl called me on Monday and he said as your, has your course changed? I said what do you mean has it changed? And he said oh, I bought it like eight years ago. I said, well, there's some things like Suburbs, Lexus software or things that change, but pretty much nothing changes. Like it's just the fundamentals. Buy a good quality property in a good quality area with pricing disparity. Do a good quality renovation that fits the market, do it on budget, on time. He said, are you still telling people to buy use in the color schemes, antique white? And I said yes. He said that's good because all of my houses and all my investment properties antique white. And he actually said the investment, the initial investment saved him $20,000 on the negotiation tips of buying the course. And you don't, I guess the thing is you don't really know when you're buying a property or you're renovating where the money's going to be made, you know, and you're hoping and dreaming. And I just think you should take the hoping and dreaming out, buy below the market or know how to negotiate well to buy the property you want now rather than pay more for it as the property prices go up, up exponentially like they are at the moment. Buy a property that has that renovation potential so you've got that growth, the vacancy Rates reduced, the rent goes up, and then buy for the growth, you know, make money in three ways.

Are there any, like, hard no's when you're looking at a renovation? Like, are there any things that you look at when you're doing a renovation? And. And then all of a sudden it's got the trident, and then all of a sudden X pops up or something pops up and you're like, oh, oh, there you go. Sorry, can't do it.

Yeah, I mean, you're always learning, right? So I remember doing a renovation in eastern suburbs in Sydney, and I was walking through the lounge room and the electrician said to me, it'd be easier having dimmer, dimmer lights, wouldn't it? And I'm like, yeah, that sounds like a good idea. And then all of a sudden, I've got like 40 dimmer lights throughout the house and I've got a bill for $2,000. I'm like, like, what the hell? Like, that was like, you know, that was just like an off comment. And in the same property, the plumber came in and said, you know that toilet out the back in the laundry, it's going to ground. It's not even connected to sewage. I was like, oh, my God, we have to connect it to sewage. And we're pulling up concrete and we're putting the sewage lines. I'm like, yay. Like, I solve this where if I take it in my hand and in that. And I actually stood back and said, well, do I need a second toilet? The answer was no. I spent $8,000 on putting in a toilet that didn't really need. And I think, you know, when I think about. And I was really trying to hack in the last year, the characteristics of successful investors and what I could find that they had in common and, you know, where they actually operate. Actually, I've got a slide on this. Can I show you my slide?

Yeah.

I'm so excited about it. Well, it's revolutionary to me, right? And I've been doing this for a while going, why do some people succeed and some don't? I don't get it. Okay, you can see my screen almost. Okay, so where is this? I've got this beautiful slide. Okay, this one. There we go. Okay. So if you think about action here, inaction and action, right? And you've got knowledge and ignorance. There's a lot of people that are just gamblers. They're like, they're jumping on every single deal. Like, did you hear about NRAs and NDIs and buying the US and flipping in New Zealand. And they're the most excitable people at any conference you see. And they're in the corner coming up with. And there's these crypto things, and we're going to buy decentralized land or whatever it's called. Yeah. No knowledge, no research. So this. They're sitting down here. Sometimes it works. And you're going to hear about the big fish they got. You're not going to hear about some of the flips that failed. Right. And then you've got the dreamers. And these. These are, like, loving these people. They. They just, you know, they. They talk a lot and they do a lot of courses, and I tell their friends have done courses, and everyone else goes and does the course. And, you know, they. They're the people on, you know, the Facebook groups that just give the most amazing insightful information. And you're like, wow, wisdom bomb. Like, I'm so. I'm so lucky they're here in my group. But they haven't ever bought anything. They haven't taken action. You know, they're just down here and, you know, they've got this whole knowledge thing. And so they're sitting there. Here we have the cynics. The cynics are. They don't know anything, but they think they know everything and they're never going to do anything. And unfortunately, these are a lot of our family members, and they only are cynics because they're to protect us. And, you know, there is a whole lot of mindset around the. There's a fear of success for a lot of people. And one of. I was speaking with one of my mentoring clients two weeks ago. I was like, I've. I've worked out the suburbs for you. I've set up the alerts. Why are you not pulling the trigger? Let's work on this. What is happening? And she just said, I think I've got an issue with my relationship with success. I said, okay, let's sit in that. Let's define what success means to you. And she said, it's a little old lady dying alone in a mansion. Like, well, no wonder you don't want that. Let's redefine success. What success looked to you when you're being very abundant in your thinking, she's like, well, I have time to spend with people. To your point, Jeff, time, Right. It's a currency. I can be generous with my time and spend time with people I want, when I want, want, how I want nothing to do with money. And it just redefined the Entire experience and she's off buying a property. So, you know, what I found is that people have got a clear framework of exactly what they want. They have a clear vision, they understand also, they're conscious of what they're doing. They're not trying to be, I want five properties or I want a hundred thousand dollar passive income. They're very clear on what they're trying to do. And mostly they've got a bigger passion, project or commitment to community or family of what they want to create. They're the people who are these incredible achievers. And I think that often what we have is everyone's kind of like the loop. They've got this plan of how do I get to the goal? And the reality is we do get confused with all of these things and we just fall short because we lose our focus. And what we have to do is understand what that vision is, be very, very clear on the knowledge that you need and the resources to get to the vision and then audit your current resources, understand your, you know, where your super is and where your investments are, where your home is, what your future home looks like, how much your future life is going to cost you and then bridge that gap, understand those, those limitations and take action towards it. And I think, you know, when we kind of look at, when I look at what people have done to succeed in my community and you know, I built a community of over 30,000 people, I, I get to see what people are doing right and wrong.

Yeah. And, but it's also like the roadmap to be able to know where to go and what the right steps are, are, and taking the right twist.

Any, any, any step can work. It's just a case of actually understanding, having the knowledge. Yeah. Because.

To your point, Joe, there is a, there is others that success leaves clues.

Right.

So others have been successful. They've left some clues of the path. And that's what, why I was really keen in the beginning to look at what people had done wrong and just, you know, hack not doing that. And I think, you know, everyone, to your point, Jeff, everyone has kind of a path that they think is the right way and it might be right for them. And it's just defining what that is and not being, you know, completely, you know, my way or highway. You know, what works for me is renovation is not going to work for other people. I've renovated remotely. You know, I had my, I had a property in Sydney that I renovated in 2019 completely remotely and chose everything online. You know, had people doing video calls with me at the end of the day and you where the projects were and I had all the quotes being done. You know, it's possible to do that. You don't have to be the hammer person.

Yeah, I would look. Yeah. Because I did a renovation and I went there and, and set it all up and then I went on holiday to the UK and it all went very, very smoothly. I mean, it did get broken into a couple of times, but that's because I got everything delivered. Lessons. It was an expensive lesson. Don't get everything delivered and not have the curtains up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, but how, how do you do that? I mean, what does it look like to do? It is. Sorry, is it possible? And I guess the answer is, we've made it clear, yes, it is possible to do a full remote Renault, but. Yeah, how challenging is it to be able to do that?

These days there's a lot of online asset managers that are disrupting the property management space and the current property management groups are trying to do things that are setting them apart. And a lot of those groups in the last few years have got like a project manager, renovation expert, kind of on call. And unfortunately, I didn't have that with the company I was working with, but I had spoken to the agent and said, can we put a lockbox on the front? I need three quotes for carpet, three for painting. She organized the people that she, she would come up with two people and I'd come up with one person and they would just send me through the quotes. You know, I used my. I would chose the, the tiles that, you know, through the Renault safe card. I chose the flooring and the kitchen bench tops by just looking at places down here in Melbourne and getting it delivered up there. And I had a builder who kind of coordinated it all, well, coordinated the kitchen and I had the agent who made sure that the painting and the carpet was done. And, you know, I had, I had a guy doing the roof and at the end of the day he'd send me little updates with, you know, it's raining men playing in the background. You know, I was getting musical accompaniment to my, my renovation progress, which is great. But, you know, I, I was, I've always been the project manager on site, you know, and was renovating a unit, beachfront unit in Bondi, and I'd be there at, you know, six o' clock in the morning sometimes or, you know, one, actually one in the eastern suburbs. Drove, drove over from our time and where we were rent, vesting, living in a unit, let the the people in. I just have a whiteboard marker and I write on the, the window what we needed to have done for the day and who was doing what and the phone numbers of the subsequent person. So if the Tyler didn't finish, he could let. Let the kitchen guy know so that, you know, and they, they like, you know, working out things themselves. And then I just built up a team. So if I had a really good Tyler, I'd say, well, who have you worked with? What trades have you worked with that have been really good and, you know, good people who clean up after themselves, do the job well, don't leave a mess for the next trade. You know, get things done on time. They like working together. So he'd say, oh, you have really got a great plumber or waterproofer, you know, and like, can I have that person's number? And so you kind of, you know, I never had. There's some amazing renovators out there who, you know, have teams and they bring them into action. I'm kind of like the mum and dad renovator who, you know, does one at a time and, and puts together the team when I need it or does it remotely. And, you know, we, we kind of done a duster. We're really good. We stopped renovating and buying or stopped buying many years ago. My husband retired at 40 and he paints now. It's no longer in it. And I just get to share how people can get to their financial security in a way that I believe residential property can let them do it. So we have the choice to do what we want and so we're not active and we don't have a team. And how I teach people to do it is how I did it, which was sometimes you use the rental managers, sometimes you use the trades that you trust that can refer other people.

People.

There's ways of doing it remotely and, you know, you don't have to be scared of buying a property in Adelaide or Dubbo and, you know, renovating it straight away. You know, you can keep your tenants in there and bank it and wait until we get over some of the craziness with the prices and, and distribution channels and renovate it. Then.

I'm all for. I love a good Renault. I also think there's a space for like the. This a lot smaller Renault. Like, you don't have to do the full whack. You can do, like, you know, people. People are like, no, I, I can't do. I was speaking to a friend and he's like, no, I can't do it. There's too much. I'm like, all you're doing is getting someone to sand the floors and paint and replace some doorknobs. This is not rocket science. This is all pretty easy stuff that anyone can.

You can.

Anyone can do by themselves, and anyone can outsource by themselves.

Themselves.

Yeah, it's a good point. We. When we were testing the course, we had 20 beta testers and half of them were really experienced investors. And I remember this guy, he has a placement, I think he was in Tamworth, and he was a really successful flipper renovator and had done like 15 of them. And he got up to like, module three, which essentially said, you don't have to pull out the entire kitchen. You. You might just need to change the. The doorknobs and put on a new bench top. And he's like, oh, my God, I was about to buy a new kitchen. Let's just save you, like, eight grand. And I think sometimes it's like me in the toilet. Like, I had to fix the problem where in actual fact, you've sit back and go, well, what are the comparable sales telling me? You know, what. What is the standard of fixture and finish? What can I do now? What can wait? You know, I bought a little bit terrace in Darlington in Newtown, in Sydney, and I. Every single cent went into that. You know, I pulled money out of one property, purchased it. I did not have, you know, a cent to renovate it at the time. Tenants were happy in there. They stayed there. And every couple of years, new tenants came. And it wasn't until like eight years later that I actually renovated, put in a skylight, did the kitchen, did the painting, did the floors, and spent about 40 grand on it.

I love it.

Okay, we're getting well over. I mean, we're taking a heap of your time, Jane. I mean, there's heaps of things. So I put a call out about 10 minutes ago that. For people, for questions, any questions that people have, because I know there's people that have gotten heaps of value out of this, so I'm sure Joe's always got questions, so.

Well, I want to. I don't know, maybe this might be a long one, but I want to hear, like, a. Like a renovation. Have you got any renovation horror stories where people have gone about it and the wrong way and gotten themselves into a bit of strife because they're the hard ones to hear about. Right? Like, we all hear about the victories because. Because everyone.

Actually, I did. I used to run this, like, Little like pay it forward one day course in like Balmain, TAFE or whatever it was. And people turn up with renovation horror stories. And I remember this. There was this one lady, they'd bought a house in Maroubra and they were going to flip it and. And they had done all of what they thought, all the budgeting and research for it, and then they had to put in a retaining wall that they hadn't anticipated and they just hadn't considered, you know, doing, getting the right people involved and asking questions about what was needed. And I think it cost them like $200,000 or something insane. And then the builder stopped. And when the builder stopped, they couldn't get another builder to come in and finish off the structural renovation. And so because no one wants to take over the warranty insurance. So all of a sudden they're out of pocket. And then the market started dropping, shopping as well. So at the end, you know, they fit. They finally, you know, had to go and get financed for someone that was charging a lot just to finish the job. They kind of didn't end up with any warranty insurance. It went over budget and then the market dropped and so they could only just sell it for what they bought it for. So that was pretty heartbreaking. And then I had another student who turned up who talked about a story where they. I always doubt it when I can smell fresh paint when I'm going to buy a property. I'm like, what are they covering up? And in this. In this property, it was like the week after they had bought the property, this wall in the lounge room started separating and the house was actually falling apart and it had no structural integrity. And they just kept patching it and painting it every week before. Before the. The open home and you know, caveat, be aware or whatever it is. But yeah, they have it at mtor. They ended up having to get the property pushed back together and repinned. That cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars. So, you know, the pest and building inspection is really important. Doing all of the checks is really important. Actually, here's a little thing that I wasn't aware of. We bought our first property. And then about 10 years later, a developer was developing a beautiful townhouse on the back of it. And about a week after we kind of signed off on all the changes to make sure it was livable for us and shadow lines or whatever that was, they came back and said, by the way, your fence is. Is here's our boundary and your fence is this side of the boundary. We're claiming this land. So they claimed about $15,000 worth of our land because the fence had been in the wrong place for over 10 years. It's like what I was like. And who gets a survey done right before they buy a property to go? Is my land on the right? Is my fence line on the right place? So yeah, renovation stories that I know where people really get it wrong is usually they just blow their budget and their time frame and they start renovating to their own tastes. And you know, they, they're not renovating to the market.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. They buy the $400 taps and the $800 this and wear it. You know, I think someone, someone said it really good before that you don't buy the cheapest, but you buy the next step up. And that is what, what looks a little bit better.

That's how people sell wine in restaurants. Right. You don't want to show your date you're buying the cheapest, but you don't want to like fork out for the most. So you go for the next step up.

Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, let's jump. Let's jump into the comments and we're gonna. There you go.

Yeah. So Aaron asked a question. He said can give us some tips on what rooms fittings we should focus on. I mean, I think I know a couple, but interesting. Your thoughts, Jane? You've done it, Aaron.

It's just back to the dating again. So first impressions. So you know, making sure that first impression really counts. You know that the lawn is mowed. So for instance, when we had the valuer come to value one of our properties, my husband went and mowed all of the street. Everyone got their lawns mowed up and down the street. So as you came into the street, everything looked beautiful. So first impressions count. First impressions, including the makeup, which is the paint. Right. So paint is a great way to lift a space. And there's a few little painting tricks. Like if you've got a really dark entry entryway, do a half strength of the color that you've got in the rest of the property to lift it and make it lighter. And then you've got the heart of the home where you're going to spend the most time. And that's the kitchen. So you know, you're creating that space that is open and welcoming. And there's ways to, you know, for instance, I couldn't, for one of my renovations, I really didn't want to spend a lot on a great big glass splash bag. But I could get little fire rated glass Tiles and I could do the entire kitchen with that and pick up that accent in the bathroom. So the bathrooms are obviously another place you can really add a bit of wow and just be aware that, you know, your bathroom is probably half the size or a third of the size of the kitchen, but often costs as much just because the waterproofing and the tiling maybe to the ceiling to give that luxe look and some of the nice little, you know, maybe it's a frameless shower screen or whatever. But just be aware that there's those things going on and you know, there's also ways that you can save money and you can. I'm not supposed to say about this, but there's like secret builders back rooms at Bunnings that you can make an appointment and they've got another hundred thousand products that are set up and they have all of these rooms set up that you can just go and look at and go, I want that. So. But I can't talk about that. I know I just found out about it.

I just go and ask the store manager and say, I want to know about the builders.

But you only just have to make an appointment. You have to make an appointment. So, but, and so essentially you choose, you choose your product, you tell them, you show them your plan. They will, they will cost it up. And we're talking 8 to 12% below the price of the normal products. You basically getting the builders pack. So there's so many ways that you can actually get really nice fixtures and fittings. And I remember taking a valuer through a property and I was saying, oh, you know, look at these Italian mosaic tiles. And they're beautiful tiles. Now they didn't come from Italy, but they were Italian look. And you know, that's how they sold them at the tile place to me. But they weren't like 50 bucks a square meter. That was 15 a square meter and that's look fantastic. And he was impressed and I was impressed that he was impressed and the price reflected what he gave. So yeah, I think fixtures and fittings, it's where you can just. It, it's a little the blings. But you know, Aaron, I would just say first impressions. Painting, kitchen, bathroom.

Please. Please. Loving the love in the comments. But he, he asked a question. Thoughts on. Thoughts on retaining rips? Hold the quick way. I think that's an interesting one. Have you ever done that?

No, but I did see one of Steve, you probably saw the same thing. I saw this renovation show and they're like, they actually painted the corrugated Iron roof, silver, so they could cover up the rust. To sell it, I was like, oh, that's just a little bit. Painting rooftops. I guess if it's the right type of paint that had the durability that was necessary to make it look a bit cleaner. Because I know some of the roof tiles can look, you know, especially when they're the old kind of orangey terracotta look. You can always lift a property by, you know, going sometimes with that, the darker kind of more expensive look. It's not something I've ever done, Steve, but I'd be. I'd be interested in hearing, if you do it, how it works out. I painted tiles in bathrooms.

Well, that's what I was going to say. Like those. That tile paint works fantastically well.

Yeah.

That's a great affordable way. Right. Rather than ripping out all the tiles in the bathroom and having to re. Waterproof everything because you tear all of that. You can just literally have this. The old gross yellow tiles or crazy colors that the previous owner had and just paint them all gloss white.

Yeah.

And get the, get the pink bath repainted too.

800.

Get it?

Well, it won't be. You can get it done by people that do it.

And we'll say this is the thing. Like, you get someone. You could get someone to coat the bath, and you're like, whatever it is. 800. And you're like, well, you know, you can get one of those nice new bars, they're only 300 bucks. But then you have to pull it out, dispose of it. You've got to repaint retail around it. There's always, you know, doesn't always match. You've got to build the hob, you know, and all of a sudden it's at fifteen hundred dollars. And that three hundred bath that's now, you know, cost you a fortune.

Yeah, definitely. Well, look, we got an answer as well.

He's done it a couple of times. He only get about 10 years.

He's testing me. Yeah. And that's. That's money well spent. Right. Why retile a whole property if it's.

That's expensive?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. I love it. Okay, well, we've been talking about this course for, For a little bit. I'd like. Can you give me a bit more detail on it, how it all. How it all works?

Because.

Because I saw some awesome software that you get access to and yeah. Give us a bit of a rundown.

I have to say. You know, the ultimate guide of renovation was really the, the pinnacle of everything that I've done. And you know, between us, people think they want to flip and they think they want to renovate. And I'm like, I really, I need to sell them what they want, but I really need to give them what they need. And so it was so important to me that people were buying in the right area. They understood the fundamentals of their strategy, they understand the dynamics and the demographics of the suburbs they're buying in, they understand the pricing pressure. So I've got a 12 module course and a lot of the time people like, can I just jump to like module 7 with the renovation stuff? I don't want to do all the fluffy stuff beforehand. I'm like, look, I'm sorry, you know, I've been to the States, I've learned best adult education techniques. You need to go through this one at a time because I really want this stuff to land for you. So you have the information. And even the most experienced renovators have gone through. I've gone, you know, that first like model module on just the goal setting, the strategy, like that blew my mind. It actually refocused where I need to go. And it's so important to me because that's where I see successful investors, right, having that vision. So it's a 12 module course. It's usually, you know, I really wanted to make it half the price of all the other renovation courses that were on the market at the time because I really, you know, I'm committed to that, making it realistically priced for everyday Australians to get the right information. Over the years, as I said, I used to have this spreadsheet that said go and get the information from here, here, here and do the suburb analysis. Now the suburb selector software and the location master courses is included in it. So that information is updated every single month. So if you buy the location master class, I think it's $995 a year if you buy the location. If you buy ultimate gutter renovation, you've got it. Well, for as long as I'm living for life. But the subject Flex software is in there always and you know, just little things like the quick quote calculator, you know, it was really hard to quote out per room or per job how much things are going to be. So we created a calculator that John the co creator has actually used for development. So we've got a structural and a cosmetic one down to the extent of saying, you know, what, what size trees, what size plants are you going to have? And so we've got all the different Plants and the different costs. If you have a fully grown one or a half grown one or a full grown one, down to painting the room, you can go it's this much per square meter or this is the quote for it down to I need 5 cans of 4 liter paint and 3 lots of builders box. So everything's priced in depending on how much detail you want to go into. And then there's a four step checklist that we've used time and time again to assess properties, assess the areas, assess the demographics, ask the right questions to the agents, real estate agent templates to give them and buyer's agents templates. You know, for me it was making sure that everyone had all the information that they needed and then the support. I've been running monthly calls and the your property success club Facebook group for the last eight years. And a lot of people who come in actually go back and listen to all the calls because there really isn't much new, you know, around how we do things fundamentally and make money in property. And you know, for me it was really important to add that kind of support as well. So the ultimate guide to renovation. I took it off the market early last year because I felt that there was a lot of people being opportunistic in selling courses to people stuck in lockdown. And I have to be honest with you, I got a little lazy and I didn't even let anyone buy it for the last two years. So when I was thinking about, you know, when you asked me to talk about renovation and I was thinking about your community and how much love you give them, I really would love to make that available to them. And it's usually $2,997 and I'm going to take $1,000 off, so it's going to be $1,997. You get the quick quote calculator, you get all the checklists, all the templates and the location masterclass course and the suburbs lecture software that's updated with SQM research search data every single month.

See, Jeff and I have actually spent like probably $50,000 each on our, on our education. And what I kind of found was like you wouldn't have one course that could do a whole. It wouldn't do it wouldn't do. It wouldn't give you the location and the, the suburb research. It would just be renovation, right? It would just be. This is how you do the renovation thing. And then you've got other ones that are just development. But it sounds, by the sounds of this one you're actually going from. Right from the beginning of setting up your mind, your mindset, laying out exactly who you are, where you want to go, and then painting the picture of how you're going to get there and then giving you the tools and the renovation to, well, the tools to find those assets and find the locations. That's amazing. And after spending 50 grand, I do much prefer to spend under 2000. All that.

Exactly. And I have to tell you, it's. It's not. It. It is not development. So I definitely. That's not my wheelhouse.

I'm not.

I'm not in that. Even though John's used the quick work calculator to do his entire development, that's not my wheelhouse. I stick to what I know and teach what I know. But what he did do, which I think is genius, I think I can do. You want to have a quick little look at it? Okay.

Yep. Yeah, let's do it.

That's a great thing about this.

We get it.

We get behind the scenes.

I know everyone else board can leave and we can just play.

I'm going to drop the link because you've been kind enough to even create this. This cool link for us.

Yeah. Well, that's the discount. So don't go to the main website. Can you guys see that yet? My screen.

That's not. That's not the discount. Oh, yeah, here we go. It's coming.

Okay, so this is what the ultimate guide to renovation looks like. Right. So the reason that I'm really excited about this. So we've got all the modules, you know, there. I'm having a chat. I told you, it was a few years ago. Right. And so, you know, there's the whole goal setting, and I've got them in really small little videos so that you can download them if you need to listen to them on MP3s, you know, watch them, whatever. And so this. This whole section here, you know, there's just all of that kind of gold about the location and. And finding the properties and how to do it, and every single step is covered. And then, you know, you've got the location masterclass workbook and how to fill that in. Then we walk through and have a look at renovations and what you could be doing. So there's all of this kind of. Oh, look, there you go. Elite marketers talking there to me, how properties are sold and the negotiation plan. But there's all of the templates that I've got in here as well. But what is really cool. So John came Up with this structural renovation. Yes. Technique, which is this box in the back. And essentially what it does is it uses a commercial property design that allows you for properties that have like that annex that you want to push over and put in the butler's pantry, the lovely kitchen and living space. We've actually got the blueprints for those that you can take to your architect. Now this is really quick to do. And because you're not actually creating and like you've got beautiful. This is the renovation that he did on the structure one. So you've got these beautiful renovations. And what did you put that link in there? Because I could just. Okay, let me have a look at that. Because I can just bring that up. Because the. One of the things that you'll see is that if you want to, you can go and have a look at this rent one of the renovations that we did. So show me the offer. But if you go in there, there's actually four videos of us renovating one of these properties. But the really interesting thing is that, you know, if you have a look at these blueprints, it costs about 90 to 100,000 to put in within just a few weeks, that box in the back. And then you fit it out with another 20 to 30,000. But this allows you to go and take as a kind of like a posistrat that is used here. That means that you don't actually put. Have to put on a whole big roof line. It's actually a flat roof and you're actually getting a really nice design. So you get everything basically in. In that course. And I, you know, the reason I put it together is it's. It's kind of the combination of everything that I love and everything that, you know, I really like doing. So. So, yeah, it's. It gives me the opportunity to be able to do that for people. So where is that little slide? I put that together so you can have a look, but that's where those videos are. If you just go and put your name in there, click on that link, you can actually watch the. I do. I walk through a renovation from purchasing it all the way through and talk about it. But yeah, and I've even put in. Because I know, you know, it's Christmas. I think I put in, what was it, six payments at $397 dollars. If you don't like it in 30 days, give it back. You get one. One module a week. So it's definitely drip Fred too, so that you actually consume it in the way it's Supposed to be consumed. Just like Adele and Spotify and. Yeah.

Fantastic. Okay, well, there you go.

We had a lot of music recently. I've noticed she's come. Come back.

Yeah, yeah, so. And she likes things done her way. But. But you know, it's. Module 2 and 3 will get people into that suburb selector software. They can really play around with that and start doing that diligence and running suburbs against each other. And, you know, that is going to make the people money, that the capital growth and the renovations are going to give them the uplift in the future. So I just. It's a strategy that just works. It just works and it just works.

Yeah. And this is the thing, right? Like a buyer's agent is 10 to $15,000. You're saving, you know, saving $20,000 on a renovation, on a negotiation is $20,000 saved. Right. So a small, like $2,000, under $2,000 is awesome.

So when I was talking to Carl, when he was like, are you still using that same color? I'm like, yep. And, and mind you, I. Under the kickboards of all of my kitchens, I have a little pot of that color. So if I go and do an inspection and there's something that needs done, I've got a little sample of the color and I've got the paintbrush. So, you know, it's like my first car, it was a Kingswood straight red engine. I knew if I turned up in any garage across Australia, I could say, can you help me out? And they knew how to help me out. So if you have a basic color, it all works. And it works for years. But when I was talking to Carl and he was talking about, you know, it saved him that much just on the negotiation, I said, well, how did the property, how did the renovation turn out? It's like, well, I bought for 330 and now it's worth 630. I'm like, Yay, you. Six years. Good job. You know, and that's, that's what happens when you buy in good quality areas. You buy for the market, you have less rent vacancies, and it allows you to get on and do something else. He's now looking to put a granny flat on the back of it. It like, happy days, you know, so he can add even more value.

Yeah. And. And this is what people want, right? Like when it comes to quality assets, if you're, if you're. You can buy something that doesn't look like a quality asset and then relist it after you've done the renovation to make it a quality asset that people actually want to live in it, hold it for the long term or pass it on or whatever. But if it looks fantastic, people are going to be emotionally invested and want to put higher, higher rates on. And also, if you're looking to sell your own property, you're going to want to understand renovation and stuff.

So we had one of the students who was, had just been quoted 250,000 to do a renovation on his own home. And when he dropped in and saw the box on the back, blueprints, he used those and cut $100,000 off his cost on his own home. And to your point, Jeff, more people are doing renovations. A lot of people staying put at the moment. They can't get into the market. Kids are getting older, they wanted to upgrade. The market's gone crazy. They're saying, okay, let's put on an extra story. Let's do something. Let's put on the box at the back, let's renovate our own home. And people can do it in place a lot easier these days by doing a little bit at a time as they can afford it, you know, so. And I'm also going to throw in that, a free Renault Safe card. Like, seriously, if, if you don't buy the course, just go and buy the card. I think it's like 99 a year or something. And just the deal discounts that it can get you. It's fantastic.

Thousand right to the end. I wanted to say, I want to say thanks for spending more than two hours with us on, on the call, Jane. Just the, the amount of, sort of the amount of longevity you spent. I was spending the industry because it is a tough and tough industry to be in and, and just the value you've added over time, time, time again, and just the energy that you bring as well. So thank you. Thank you for not just in Oz property, but just everywhere. You are gold.

It's funny, I remember Effie, who is the editor of Money magazine, when she needed a comment, she used to call me up, Jane, I need your meat and potatoes. You don't go offline, you don't change the story. You haven't changed the story in 15 years. I just need the meat and potatoes. And, and that's what it is, meat and potatoes. That's what most Australians want, right? They just want the typical property in the typical area where they want to live. We get the benefit of creating a better use of it by renovating it and, you know, keeping our tenants for longer and getting us an equity growth that allows us to live the dream.

And it keeps going, keeps going, just keeps growing every cycle. Yeah. Thank you so much Jane for taking the time. Is there any other other kind of final things that you wanted to cover off that we haven't covered?

No, just everyone have a safe and happy holidays and I, you know 2022 is going to be really exciting and there's going to be lots of opportunity. But just remember, you know listen to all the information. Don't just take one piece of news. You're investing for the long term 10 to 15 years. You know this is not like a, a one hit wonder because those who are in for the one hit wonders often, you know get themselves into a lot of trouble and you know just you know have a safe and happy time with your family.

Love it. Thank you. Let's go buy a property. See you guys.