Kitty Thomas Debt Angel Solutions

Hello. Hello, everyone, and welcome to June 2023. Oh, my goodness. There has been so much going on in the world of property finance. We've just had all of the information about inflation rates come out yesterday. It seems like it's better story than what most people expected. Definitely better than last month. And, you know, so many things are happening. We've had, what, 12 interest rate rises. Some people are suggesting we're going to have even more than that. Now, I just want to make sure that I am coming through loud and strong. Let me know, guys, if you can hear me, if you can see me, and if all the information is coming through well and good. So, yep, let me know. Is anyone out there? Oh, I see someone watching. Okay, so wait a second. Let's see where we're going through, what group we're in. I may have set it up in the wrong group completely, and if that's the case, I'll have to start it again. So. Nope, I see we're all live. Okay, guys. Well, as I said, there's been a really big month this month, and, you know, it's on the back of a huge year. A lot of people I've spoken to are feeling a lot of financial stress. There's, I know, a lot of conversations that we're having, investors choice mortgages of people who are talking about the issues that they're having. I know every time I turn up to the groceries, it seems that my grocery bill's going up and up, and I go to the same checkout every Sunday. And I was asking the lady, you know what she's saying? And she was saying, you know, that they're definitely seeing people's household bills going up and they're seeing a lot of people now making cuts on what they're actually purchasing. So there's no doubt that there is a lot of problems out there. There's no doubt that there is actually a lot of people who are feeling the pain and feeling a bit of tension around their financial situation. So me personally, one of my loans that was fixed at 3.3% has just rolled over this month to 9.3%. So that is an extra 6% that I'm going to have to come up on that loan every single year. So, you know, I understand the pain that people are going through and understand that there's a. A lot of, I guess, issues and problems now from that. There's large consequences around the fact that we've got people talking about mental health issues, people making some very significant life decisions that we're seeing as well. And why I asked this very, very special guest to come along this month and talk to us is because, you know, I'm hearing on the grapevine, I'm hearing people who are daily talking to us about, you know, the mortgage stress that they're under. I know that there's a lot of issues out there, and I wanted to, you know, give you some height, I guess, an idea about a path forward and the fact that there are actually people out there that can help you. So I've asked the wonderful Kitty Thomas to come along from Debt Angels. Welcome, Kitty. Kitty, how are you going today?

Thank you so much for having me. I'm. I'm really well. Thank you. And I feel very honored to be here. Thank you.

Oh, well, I'm so glad. I think you're one of the first guests over the last 10 years that I've actually had on, so I'm going to change that up. So, Kitty, Debt Angels Problems Solutions, My goodness. It sounds to me that you may be like a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners. You probably maybe had a situation yourself and got through it and created a business around, you know, helping other people do that. I'd love to hear a little bit more about you and your story and, and where Dead Angels came from.

Sure. Okay. So, yes, I. I am definitely one of those that have created a company based on personal experience. My personal experience of. I affectionately refer to what happened to me. As I had an entrepreneurial seizure. I decided it would be a really fabulous idea in my early 20s to turn a working wharf underneath the Harbour Bridge into a venue. And it was amazing. We put on some really incredible parties, dance parties for 10,000 people. We did the biggest off premise Fashion Week event Australia's ever seen, launched Virgin Atlantic with Sir Richard Branson. Just did some incredible events. But unfortunately, one of the promoters that I had couldn't afford to. Well, sorry, not couldn't afford to. He couldn't. He didn't fill the venue. And so three days beforehand I was asking him for proof of sales just to show. Anyway, long story short, he couldn't. So we decided to pull the event three days before it, which cost me $75,000 that day, which, which was painful. But if I would have kept the venue going and with the event going, I would have basically had a $300,000 debt, which was crazy. So that was like the beginning. And then a few days later, my business partner at the time understandably couldn't keep going in the capacity that we were in, and she handed me a photo with $65,000 worth of. Of additional debt. And I just went, okay. And the venue was my baby before I had babies, right. So I was like, kept going and trying to make it work. But I mean, for those of us who in Sydney, you'll know, it's now Barangaroo. It's a fairly large landmark where I'm talking about. So, you know, it was always earmarked for something bigger. Despite having asked Richard Branson to help me back me in developing 22 hectares of land it went across to Yellows to develop. So. So that's how I got into debt. And I.

Was that something that you at that time, you know, you're young, you just started a business. It's all going great. You're working with people like Richard Branson, and all of a sudden you have this huge amount of debt. Is that like, okay, I know how to get through this? Like, did you have that moment? No. What happened?

I had no idea how to get through it. You know, I think, you know, looking back on my experience, I really, you know, I was like, I'm going to put a party on. That was kind of my attitude in my early 20s. And, you know, I didn't really have the practical foundation of building a big business because I'd never done it before. So, you know, the idea of creating something amazing was there. And then when the reality kind of came crashing down around me and I realized the size of the hole and the fact that I didn't actually have any idea how to get out of it. Like, I had never seen or contemplated $150,000 worth of debt. Like, I just had no clue concept of it. I, you know, the venue had now been like, it was basically being developed. We couldn't put events on, so I didn't have that recoverable position through the event. So to be honest, I stuck my head in the sand for five years, you know, and I, I effectively. I didn't know what to do. It was. It was really all consuming it. It, you know, I, I was drinking, you know, smoking. I was hiding from what was going on because I didn't have a solution. And so I was pre. Like, I was okay. And I'd also had this remarkable fall from grace. Like, you know, the woman around town, it was putting on these parties. And then, you know, that wasn't happening. So I kind of didn't have anything to show for it either. And so, yeah, I hid for ages. And a girlfriend, how I got out of it, My girlfriend was sick of calling Me, because I kept making excuses. I wasn't going out for meals or seeing friends because I just didn't have any money and I had no capacity.

And that debt's building up, right? You're paying interest on this and covering the interest. So that's how you.

I wasn't paying anything.

I just didn't even come back after you or.

Oh, no, they did. My phone was, like, ringing hot and it was private number after private number. And I think, you know, that was also before we were really having, like, much notification on the phone who was ringing. You know, I would be out and I'd put my phone on silent and it would vibrate and I was just embarrassed. I was embarrassed and I was ashamed about the situation. And so I hid in my house. And, you know, the things that I was doing, you know, weren't like I wasn't spending huge amounts of money. You know, I'd have a cigarette because, you know, that was kind of calming my nerves. And I was having a takeaway coffee because the 150,000, the debt amount that I had, was so big that I couldn't fathom how I was going to resolve that problem. So I was. I was giving myself that in the moment of, like, oh, well, I'm never going to solve that. So I'm just going to have a coffee because I've got enough for a coffee. I don't have 150, but I've got, you know, $3, which is. Was back then when you were buying coffee, not now to actually pay. So I was kind of suppressing how I felt and I fell into a depression. I had huge anxiety every time the phone rung. I had a stack of letters on my counter that I hadn't opened, you know, and it wasn't until, like, I was ignoring all those calls. And then my mum called and she was like, kitty, I've just had somebody call. They said it was an urgent business matter, you have to call them urgently. Here's a number. Please call them and find out what's going. And, I mean, I knew straight away that it was a debt collector. What I didn't know was that debt collectors could track you down via external sources like that, which.

How do they track your mum down?

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure how they found her, but it's totally legal. They can. They're not allowed to say what it's about, but they can say, hey, I'm calling, you know, please make sure that you get Kitty to call as soon as possible. Sounding very Serious and very scary. And my mother's not entrepreneurial, so she was a little spooked.

Can they call your boss?

I think they can track you down wherever they can find you. You know, they can call definitely and say that it's an urgent business matter, like they did, and say, you know, I need you to get in contact. And, you know, I mean, you could ignore creditors, but ignoring your mother.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, then you're even more embarrassed. Right?

Well, that's. That's exactly right.

And so really front it. Yeah.

And that is where I got to. You know, it was that combined with a girlfriend of mine having. Being sick of ignoring me and, like, ignoring her coming over and demanding. I got in the car and she took me for a drive, and, you know, she took me to a car park where her husband was working, and she got me with one of those wands directing the traffic. And it was amazing. Right. Because what it did was got me out of my head. It got me out of what was going on. I'm feeling sorry for myself and me going, you know, I mean, there's nothing wrong with directing traffic, but it's not who I was. And I went, well, I can either pretend that everything is fine and ignore the reality, or I can actually take this on, deal with it head on, confront it, and work out a solution.

Is there an option that's like, I go bankrupt and owe the money still, or I can, like, what happens in that process? Like, what were the options?

Well, I didn't know that there were options back then. Right. And all I knew was that I didn't want to go bankrupt for two reasons. One, it was a matter of integrity. I'd gotten myself situation. I wanted to get myself out. And two, I knew I was an entrepreneur, and if I'd gone bankrupt, then I potentially couldn't run a business. Or at least that's my headspace at the time. So I was like, well, that just means that I'm going to have to deal with it. And I was doing a communication leadership course at the time, which was talking about, you know, as we know, communication is the key to life. And so I started dealing with it. I started answering the phone, and I didn't have anything to say. It was like, okay, I'm here, you've got me. I. I can't do anything about this, but can you just stop? Just give me some headspace, Leave me alone for a little bit so I can try and find a solution. Because my phone ringing all the time. It's like having like this huge amount of anxiety that was linked to it. So I was like, well, if I can calm that space a little bit, then maybe I can find a solution. So I started to get them to stop calling by putting arrangements in place. And the arrangements were, can you make no payments, nothing, I'll get in touch with you in three months time or two months time or whatever it was. And then I started asking when I got more confident, you know, can you hold the interest and the payment so that the balance of the money wasn't going up? And in some cases that was okay, in some cases that wasn't okay. And so I started to kind of feel my way through it. And then my grandfather actually passed away and left me a small inheritance. And then I started to. I was like, well, now I've got money, but I don't have enough money to settle all of that debt, so maybe I can start negotiating with them. And so I started negotiating with them. Before that, I'd put like small payment plans in place. But at this point I was like, well, maybe I can settle the debt for less. And that's exactly what happened. I started doing that. So I didn't know that this option was available. I had absolutely no idea. No one had told me. Every time I asked for help from the banks, nobody would explain what my options were. Nobody was telling me I had to fumble my way around and kind of work it out myself to be able to get to the point that I was at where I was able to settle it. And I managed to settle the 150 for about 25%, which was pretty amazing.

So when you say settle 150 for 25%, it means you only had to pay 25%. So what's that, 40, $50,000 or something that you had to pay up the whole 150 plus I imagine the interest that had been adding up for years.

Correct.

So that was kind of like revelation to you.

It was huge. It was get teary. But getting rid of that debt and getting rid of that pressure off my shoulders and clearing it and not having them call and not having to call them because I'd psych myself up to call them. I'd say, okay, well, three months, I'll call you back in three months. And I'd put it in my calendar two weeks before because I had to psych myself up to actually call them. And you'd be on the phone to someone who really doesn't give a care on the other end of the phone, really appealing to them and opening yourself and explaining what you've just been through time and time and time again. So it was really a grueling process. So to be done with that and to know that I, you know, protected myself and my credit writing was clear and that I hadn't gone bankrupt and that I'd taken a level of responsibility for, you know, I take a responsibility. I hadn't, you know, completely ignored it, well, any longer than five years anyway, that I was able to break free of it. And it was so liberating. And it was. It was actually my mother who was like, kitty, you know, you should do this for other people. And I did for years. Like, you know, I remember my best friend and I, we were working on a project together, and her phone was doing similar to what mine was. And I've actually made a brand story about this, and it's in the brand story, we call it unspoken. But she. She and I were sitting, talking, and the phone kept ringing, and I could see her doing the same thing, like, trying to hide it, cover it. And I just said, what's going on? And she's. She's quite. Quite a big personality that people know her. She's a celebrity. And, you know, I'm her best friend. And I'm looking at it, going, I can see that something's wrong. Like, tell me. She goes, no, no, I'm fine. I'm like, you are not fine. And when she opened and told me what was going on, what I noticed was I was able to compartmentalize it. I was able to go, okay, I hear the pressure and the stress of what's going on for you. I know what I can do to make that better and easier for you. Hand over the authority to me. Let me take it on, and let me sort it for you. And as we started to settle the debts and as we started to. Like, some of them we were able to waive, and some of them we were able to reduce. And all kinds of. We did different solutions for different things. This put together beautiful human being who nobody in the. In the world, including me as her best friend, had any clue that anything was going on. Just, like, let everything loose. And she was. She was crying and just so incredibly grateful. And, you know, to make that difference to somebody's life was so incredibly fulfilling. But to be honest, I was still not ready to actually look at it, because I think when you're in the world of debt, and I've been carrying this burden myself for such a long time that when my mother was like, oh, you should do this for a business, but not most non entrepreneurial person you ever meet. And I was like, how, how do I do that? How do I take on somebody else's burden? I know how heavy that is. How do I take it on such that I can take it off them and manage it for them? And then, you know, if I do that for one person, how can I do that for 50, 100, 500,000, 2,000 people? How do I, how do I do that? And so I made a patient. So yeah, it wasn't actually until I ruptured a disc in my neck that my life just stopped. And I'm a sole parent. I've got my two teenagers 100% and have done for 14 years. And so I couldn't do the things, I couldn't drive them, I couldn't cook, I couldn't do anything. And so my reality came crashing down around me and I was like, this is cause. And I joke, but there's an element of seriousness that this rupture in my neck was caused by me having my head stuck in the sand for five years.

And it's funny, you can laugh about that, right? You can go, yeah, yeah, I got a sore neck as my head was in the sand. But the reality is, what you've just explained from your situation and from your best friend's situation is there is, there is mental and physical and emotional stress that goes along. And we've just got a comment here from someone who says, you know, this conversation is so timely. The fact of the matter is, you know, it's not just I've got some money problems I have to deal with. This takes over the anxiety of every time the phone rings, knock on the door, everything is what I'm hearing, everything.

And it takes over. Like I gave that example before of like, how am I going to be able to, you know, there's no oxygen that goes through your brain when you're in stress like that. So you cannot think. And when you can't think, you can't create. And when you create, you come up, can't come up with the solution. So you need to get to a point where the pressure is taken off and then you're left with, okay, this is where I'm at, what am I going to create? And as Kiyosaki says, the bigger the problem, the bigger the solution. So if we can create a bigger solution based on the problem we're trying to solve because we don't have the phone ringing and the pressure of how am I going to make this payment And I'm making these payments and my balance isn't going down and what am I doing? I'm going around in circles and I'm such an idiot. I can't believe I got into this situation. You know, that whole conversation, which by the way, I think is rubbish. Nobody wakes up and goes, hi, today I'm going to go get into a whole lot of unmanageable debt today.

Exactly right.

Situations change and stuff happens. So, you know, for you to stop your internal voice long enough for you to realize that when you take the pressure off as well, you can shift that mindset and you can get clear on your numbers, know where you stand, you can do things about the debt management and you can get on like, we've got clients that have turned, you know, got come to us in debt and have now created multimillion dollar businesses because they've got the capacity and the freedom of their mindset to actually go and create what's next.

It really is, I mean, it's a burden. And you've picked up on a number of interesting things there. Yes, there can be like a physical kind of illness that can come from it potentially, but that embarrassment and that, that moment where your best friend can't even share with you what's going on. You know, I guess the thing is if someone is under that pressure and has that experience, it is a very solitary experience. Like you don't have. You know, there's not the mentor you can go and chat to and go, oh, how did you get over this marketing challenge in your business? Or how did you get the next job? Or ask for a pay rise, whatever. You know, you really, you're embarrassed even say that you've got this problem. So how did you go from helping that one friend to creating dead angel solutions? Like, where did that happen for you?

Can I, can I just get back? Because I just want to pull up something before I ask that question. One of the things that we notice is that when that pressure is there and people can't think and they can't create, they forget the past. They forget that incident that happened. You know, it may be a relationship breakdown, it may be a business going not right, it may be a global pandemic or a health issue or whatever, but they forget because that's in the past and they're here dealing with this matter right now. And so that's where the self braiding comes in and the problems. So when, when I ruptured the disc and I needed emergency surgery and all of that stuff, what I realized was that it was caused by stress and anxiety. And I truly believe that that was to do with everything that I had been to and all of the ignoring and avoidance and you know, the dis ease created a disease or you know, an ailment. And so I realized that if I was going to do this, I needed lightness and love and solutions to it. I couldn't make it heavy and dark because dark enough already. So I call my daughter my angel, my little angel. And so debt Angel Solutions is where, where we came from, where the name came from. And so what we do is a lot of what I explained. So we do the holding payments, freezing, holding or reducing interest, restructuring loans, settling debt for less, renegotiating terms, loan variation, et cetera. That's what we do. But who we are is so much more than that. We do the coaching, we do the guidance, we do the lifting and inspiring and the educating and the motivating and the detonating as well. So and I bring that in because it's so important that mindset needs to shift. You know, I say to someone when they come in as a client, I don't want you back. We'll get you sorted but I don't want you back. And in order for them not to come back, some of those pre existing patterns that they've got need to. And you know, we all live in such a fast paced world that it's very few of us that are very aware of money we're spending the cost of our debts, where everything's going, how we're going to manage because we're living in credit. Whether it's you know, credit card or you know, personal loans or buy now pay laters or paydays or whatever it is that we're doing. We're living credit, bless you. We're living in this credit world. And so we're not present with than now. We don't know where we currently stand. You know, so many clients or people I know get their entire pay packet put on their credit card and they think that they're managing their financial situation because they're paying it, but they're in debt that amount because they have to do it every month. And what happens is interest will go on top of that payment and then they'll max out their card and then they'll go now what? You know, now what do I do now where do I turn? So that's how the Angel Solutions was created by my experience, experience, personal experience and my drive to make a difference to other people because I Think that it's really. I think that it's really important that people know that they have choices. So my personal stand here is. Is education piece. Like I want people to know and understand that they have choices, that there's not bankruptcy and debt distress. Like there's this whole world in the middle of opportunities that doesn't affect your credit file, that actually has you restructured debt in a way that works for you and the creditor, not just the creditor.

Well, I've got to say, we've got. The people who are watching are definitely saying that it's a much needed service and they love the idea of the dead angel. And just speaking to that mindset piece, the fact that it's not because if I thought that there was someone, you know, chasing me to collect debts, it would be, you know, I'm thinking some dark devil after me. The fact there's an angel that can bring it out, but also the. What you talk about as a mindset, you know, the renovate yourself, renovate your wealth course that I run that mindset story is when we actually get into that first module and people start sharing the stories of money that they've had since they've been growing up and the patterns they see. Money in, money out, and as you say, you know, money, you know, the pay packet goes on to the debt and there's nothing left over. And having had a mortgage business for many years and reading people's fact finds, you know, I'm seeing, you know, doctors on 4, 5, 6 or, you know, entrepreneurs or business owners, $700,000 incomes with the debt so high that they're sleeping on lounges, friends lounges and. Or they, you know, they can't afford to, you know, just have a few little extras in their life. We're talking, you know, everyone's having spaghetti tonight and a tin of tomatoes. And, you know, I think of one of the times when I worked back at the mine sites and the. In the mining industry, we used to get pay packets with the cash in it. And so everyone used to get an envelope. We'd line up, we get the yellow envelope and these guys would hit the pub straight up, and half of it would go. And that was every single week, you know, and they were paid really, really well. And I'd be friends or playing netball with their wives and they go, oh, things are really tight at the moment. I'm thinking, Gosh, we got $1,000 bonus last week. And it just went. And. And when there was a strike, what really, really struck me at these mining towns was that there was no additional money. So they'd be a strike, they'd be off for a week and straight away in the newspaper, be, you know, I've got a $5,000 jet ski for sale, I've got.

And.

Or they'd go into Dubbo from Munchie and they'd go and buy these huge bedroom suites and then the bedroom suite, there's a $2,000 bedroom suite for sale and they'd sell within a week. So as soon as there was like a strike, people had no backup, no buffer, no savings, which, you know, in the environment today, you know, everyone's got, you know, 30% of power bills, you know, been added onto our power bill, our mortgages have gone up. You know, we've got the cost of living going up. So you must be seeing a lot, a lot more. Is it, Is it more than you've seen over the last eight years of having dead angels that people are in strife at the moment?

There's a hot. Yes, absolutely. There's. There's fear, absolute fear amongst people. You know, it's, you know, people are terrified about how they're going to, how they're going to make ends meet, what they need to do. You know, I got contacted by an old school friend of mine who works in the finance industry last week and we were talking and he was saying that his mortgage just went from 5,000 to 12,000amonth. And he said, I've got no choice, but I'm going to have to sell. You know, and it's not a predicament that he necessarily put himself into. You know, he, you know, I know myself, you know, I went into the mortgage, I've got here thinking that, you know, interest rates won't change till 2024. It gives me time to blah, blah, blah, and the rug's been pulled out from underneath us and people are grappling and they don't know where to turn. And it's, it feels like. Almost feels like every company is kind of jumping on the bandwagon, kind of, or every, every, you know, putting their prices up. I got an email from Optus, which I'm, I'm questioning at the moment, because they put their plans up by $4 a month, each plan, and I'm like, how can they do that? Right? How. I don't understand how they can do that because you're in a contract. But, you know, it's like everybody. So it's coming at us from every single angle and people are going, I don't know how I'm going to feed my children. People are making conscious choices. I'm going to pay my mortgage or my debt or my whatever and we're going to eat that spaghetti and tin of, you know, tomatoes because we don't have a choice. So I'm, I am. And I think, you know that another. Aside from the obvious of the global pandemic, aside from the obvious of that, you know, we've got, you know, people who are. So in 2019, obviously the findings of the, of the Royal Commission came in. The banks got their naughty bad banks. You did the wrong thing lending money out, giving it out like it was lollies to all of these people. So you've got the people who are over lent back then, who clear asset rich but cash poor are overextended with loans, credit cards, whatever that they've had for forever and don't know how to manage because they're maxed out because the cost of living going up. Then when the raw commission came in, it's almost like the buy now pay laters and the payday lenders went, oh, we have a license to do whatever we want. We're going to jump on the bandwagon. I saw some stats the other day, I can't remember exactly what they were, but they were mindblowing the amount of people that had gone into payday loans and buy now payload is. And now that's being legislated. About bloody time. But these people are getting payday loan to pay payday loan to pay payday loan to pay payday loan. You know, I onboarded Yesterday, we onboarded two separate FIFA workers who have both got, one's got seven, the other one's got five payday loans because people get one to pay the next one off, etc. And they end up in a spot of bother where they're like, I can't get any other consolidation loan because, you know, on the credit file it looks bad to have these kind of loans on my account, but so they're the only ones that will give it to me and I don't know that these other options are available. So I'm just going to do that and then how am I going to cope? I'm going to smoke, I'm going to drink, I'm going to self medicate because I don't know how I'm going to get out of this situation and I have no clue about the pathway forward because he's talking about before we go.

On to the kind of solution and the opportunities that people have to work with dead angels and kind of work out that there is a way for those that are kind of feeling that things are getting away from them. Maybe they have these credit cards, mortgage, payday loans, whatever, buy now, pay later, whatever that is. Is there, I guess, some signs of distress? Like, do we wait until we get the person knocking on the door, or can you activate and I just want to ask another question. You said some people waived the deck. Like, that just blew my brain. So can you just take me through? Like, for people who are kind of like, it's okay, I'm just making ends meet. Do you get engaged earlier? What's going on there?

So the first thing I'd say is really check in with yourself and ask yourself, are you. Are you really making ends meet or are you surviving? You know, because there's a very big distinction between the two. You know, it's like that example we used before about putting your entire pay packet onto a credit card and then using it and then it getting to the max and you've got no money left because every month the interest is going on top. Right. You know, I think people are at a place where they. They don't know what's. What's coming and how they can navigate this situation. So they are in damage control. And, you know, no one wants to admit that they're in a tough spot financially, you know, because that shame or embarrassment or guilt or whatever it is that you've got going underneath the surface comes up. Right? But signs of debt distress, you know, are you, are you snapping at your family? Are you hiding away from your friends? Are you not able, like, are you not present to your credit card statement? Are you dreading opening the mail or answering phone calls? Are you late on payments? Are you, are you literally looking at your bottom line like, have you been to the register at the grocery store and it bounced and you not had the money to pay it in your savings account or your credit card?

That feeling when you go to the shops and you like, tap your card and it says decline, you're like, no, I have money in here. I promise you it worked before. But the reality is that for some people, maybe they don't have the money and that's the first indication that they got overdrawn.

Yeah, correct. And. And, you know, if there's two people using the same card, you know, are they present to what they're spending? Are we, you know, have we looked at the things that, you know, that we're spending? Do we know how many of the. Of the pay TV subscriptions we got.

Oh, my goodness. Yeah.

Do we need to actually renew and get a new phone when our phone plan expires, or can we set, like, what are the things that we can actually do? And the only way that you're going to be able to kind of map that out is if you're present with yourself. And that means you've got to kind of quiet the noise, like, stop the noise and stop all the extra kind of interruptions that you're getting about different things. So if you can stop the noise and you can get present on your numbers, you know where you stand, you know what your debts are costing you, you know, and you can see the bottom line. And you actually, you know what? It's as simple, really. I think it's as simple as this. Stop thinking about how you're going to solve it, if you're going to solve it. And. And sometimes we lie to ourselves about it. Oh, well, if I just get this through. And, you know, and you know, in theory, it's. It's important to have that and have that, you know, you know, the financial. The reality of your financial check. We call it your statement of financial position. So you're finding out where you stand and when you know where you stand and you've checked in and you've gone, I'm going to stop the noise here, going to check in with myself and go, intuitively, am I okay if something comes up, my regio comes up, am I going to be able to pay it? If I need to travel back home to where home is and I need to jump on a flight, can I do that? And the answer is no, or you question yourself for even just a moment. I highly recommend that you get in communication with somebody and start to look at it. Or if the first step is actually just to track it and go, well, what am I spending? You know, you were talking before about, you know, being paid with envelopes and what that looks like and all the rest of it, you know. You know, we used to do things like. Well, I never did because I was in debt. But, you know, I've heard of people doing the envelope challenge where they've got the different amounts of, you know, I see that. Yeah, but that's you mapping it out, right? So you can actually interrupt it before the money gets taken to wherever it needs to go. And you can go, okay, I'm allocating. I use an app now. I use an app called up, which does all of that for me, so I can allocate exactly how Much I've got on all of my expenses and I have two contingencies. I've got my emergency account and I've also got a miscellaneous account so that anything that comes up during that time, I know what it is, where it is, I know where I stand. But if you're paying high interest or high fees and trying to clear that debt, it's really hard to get that. So that goal is to get present with where you're at, understand where your money's going, tell it where to go rather than disappearing. You know, put practices in place that, you know that, that support you when you're, when you're spending money. Like, you know, I had an ex who used to go to the supermarket like five times a week and it take four teenagers with him. You know, it was always expensive. I'm like, just do it once a week, write the list, stick to the list and leave the kids at home. You know, like the things that you need to do within our means. Yes, but sometimes, you know, just seeing the comment about living within our means, but you know, economy is getting harder. It is getting harder and a lot of it is out of our control. You know, it's like.

And our means are reducing. Right, because the costs are going up. It's like what we did last week's not good enough this week.

Exactly. So, you know, it's, it's an incredibly challenging time for people and people berating themselves about, you know, they made bad choices or they shouldn't have done this, that or the other doesn't help. Like I said that to people all the time. I'm like, stop being mean to my new friend because that's not going to help you. You know, you need to actually just go, well, this is where I'm at. This is what I call the what. So where you're at. And now I know where I'm at. What can I do? And that's where solutions like what we offer at the Angels come in. Because we're able to, you know, again, you know, high level, come in and look at it and go, okay, so I can see the situation. You've got a mortgage, you've got credit cards, you've got a car loan, da, da, da. What can we do? And we come up with a strategy and solution that for the client strategy and the creditor strategy and how we're going to coach and guide this person through. Because a big part, like I said before, we have an accountability and coaching structure as part of our clients coming on board so that we can keep them close, they can ask us whatever questions that they need to ask us as we're going through. We can discuss the strategy and what's happening and we can hold them accountable for actually delivering on the things that we say we're going to need to do in order to get them out of the situation. You know, I often talk about it. My daughter has really fine hair and she gets it knotted quite often. Like when clients come to me and they've got this big knot of finances and don't know where, you know where to start. I often use that analogy. It's like we've got to separate it strand by strand and we've got to make sure that it all comes undone. But as soon as you get it untangled, it's fine again and you can move forward. But while it's like that, it takes over your mind, it takes over your heart, it takes over your life.

So if someone's there going, well, you know, I thought that these kind of solutions where I engage with someone, like debt angels, where they'd go and negotiate some of these things for me. I thought I had to get to the point where I had missed a couple of payments. They knock on the door. I've had a few like, I don't know, is it cease and desist kind of letters, whatever it is, you know, I'm not at that point, but I'm actually feeling a bit like I'm headed to where I can't see a solution in sight and things could get worse. And like, as you said, I had those little envelopes and I had the cash and I put them in the envelopes and I had one for my dog and I'd give it $10 a week just in case the dog needed something. And every now and then I think I could go and steal from the dog envelope, because what's my dog going to need? Then it falls off the back of the ute. $900 later, I've got metal pins in its leg, but they had the, the envelope filled. Like, if no one's got envelopes filled for those kind of out of sync kind of expenses, and they're sitting here now going, I'm feeling under pressure and I don't, don't have the cash to get me through the next month if something goes wrong, well, what can they do? What, what's the first step?

So I'm more than happy to have a conversation with anybody who is brave enough to go, hey, I just want to talk this through. Because it does take a level of bravery and, and, and kind of getting over your. Yourself and going, hey, I just want to flesh this out with somebody. Right? So I'm more than happy to have a conversation with anybody who, who wants to come through and have a conversation. But effectively, what I say to people is, it's better to get in now because we can actually stop. Because when you get to that point where debt collectors are coming and, you know, people are putting caveats on houses and, you know, you're at places where people, you know, that's affecting your credit files. So if we can interrupt it when you, you know that there's no light at the end of the tunnel and it's. It's a slight light maybe, but you're concerned that that's like potentially an oncoming train versus actually a light pathway out. You know, then. Then absolutely get in contact. I mean, we say, you know, when people come to us for a free consult call, the only thing you have to lose is your debt. Like, really?

Yeah, exactly. I mean, the criteria you have, if you can't save people money, you don't take.

Yeah. Because ethically, again, for me, it's like, you know, we only want to work with people who are serious, who want to transform their situation, are prepared to put the head down, bottom up, are coachable, who are willing to, you know, really be in communication, stay in communication, because we need that from our side to deliver on the extraordinary results that we've got. So, yeah, we won't, we won't take a client on if we can't guarantee to save them more than what we cost them. And if we can't help them, we'll steer them in the direction somebody who can or will come up with ideas or, or things that will flesh out on that call. Because again, when someone comes to us, it's like, it's like we almost have them, you know, go, okay, here you go. This is all of it. And we kind of come in from an observation level going, okay, we don't have the emotional. Like, we can support them emotionally, but when. When we're looking at it, I'm looking at numbers, I'm looking at strategy, I'm looking at existing experience, what I know the creditors will and won't do. And I'm formulating a struck strategy right there and then on that first call, and I'll share and say, okay, this is what, this is what we'll do, and this is how we'll do it. And this is the timeframe. And I say to people, hey, don't Expect to get out of this overnight. You know, you got yourself into this situation, you know, it took a little while to get into this situation, might take a little while to get out of it, but you will start to see the pressure releasing straight away. You will feel that and you feel better. And I just realized it didn't answer a question you asked me about debt waivers. So sometimes creditors will waive a percentage or an amount or sometimes even the entire balance of an amount outstanding. It depends on various different things as to why they would consider that. Usually it's not a desired situation that the person is in, but to know that you have an option, that that may be an option, you know, and I'm a true believer that, you know, you've had your $20,000 credit card for the last 10, 15 years, you've paid for that thing 10 times over, right. So we're negotiating a full and final settlement that has a partial debt waiver component, or we're negotiating what we call a long term arrangement where the interest is frozen and you're paying down the balance of the debt. And we may shave some of that off. You know that the creditors like us a lot because they're getting more back from us than if they go to a debt collector will give them sense in the dollar words will get them back a bit more than that. So. And they keep the client or they keep a relationship with the client. You know, it's, it's like a win win scenario. But yeah, so, yeah, and just, I.

Mean, as this comment says, you know, just having that support, I mean, it's. First of all, it's an embarrassing situation. You can't tell your mates and your friends and maybe even your wife or your husband. And you know, you've got the stress going on and you can't see an outcome, but you're not quite in the, you know, I've got people chasing me. A conversation could start a whole plan and to take that stress and that relief off you. And you know, I think that until I'd like to get into how you structure the support, but I'd love to hear some case studies like, so people might be able to relate to it and see the opportunities to get out of some of the debt that they're in.

Yeah, sure. Okay. Case studies. Let me think of one. All right, so a couple, couple came to me a number of years ago now. I think they had something like 45, $50,000 worth of credit card debt. They didn't own a place they were renting. They were Living in Sydney, Northern Beaches. And they just. He was working as a landscaper and she was working at retail and they had three kids and he was really like not coping. He was anxiety, depression, she was trying to keep his head up and you know, there was creating tension between their relationship. Like it was really, it was really bad. We managed to get in and settle everything, I think. So we held everything away from them. We coached them around, you know, where the money's going, what they were spending. We stopped that dependency on credit. We put them into a practice of actual. This is what you've got got, you can't spend any more than that. This is what it looks like. And then he actually came into some money and also because they weren't throwing money down the toilet, I mean giving it to the banks in interest because we'd stopped all of that. There was some money there that we could use a settlement. He also got some money from his mother. I think from memory it was some kind of inheritance of, of a small description. And we settled all of it. I think all of it was. It was close to 50,000 for about 20. Just under 20. Right.

The 30,000 of the debt was waived, basically forgiven.

Yeah. And then straight away after that they were actually able to. Because it was. The mother actually had some more money that they could use as a deposit. They went and bought a property in Queensland. They've been spending like they've moved their entire life up there. Far more cost effective for them. His mental health issues have completely gone. He's out of the water all the time, like he's doing so, so much better. And they started a business, the two of them together, tying in what they both do. And now they've basically been able to generate a multi million dollar business. So it's, you know, giving them that respite and giving them the freedom. And I think a big part of this is, you know, me and my younger years, when I went, oh, I want to put a party on here, you know, it was a great idea in that moment. Do I regret it? No. Do I think I could have managed, you know, how I set up my business better? Probably. Did I have the skills back then? No. Do I consider it a mistake? No, I don't. But you know, quite often we think that, you know, if we didn't do those things then we wouldn't be in the position that we're in. And so I think, you know, we carry a lot of that baggage with us. And so when we're able to shift things around and this Gorgeous couple called me the other day because a lot of our clients stay in contact and give us updates of where they're at. This gorgeous couple called me and went, guess what? I'm like, what? She goes, we're getting a point pool. And I said, yeah, I'm kind of stalking you on social media. I've been watching. And she goes. And Kitty go, I need to tell you something. I said, what? She goes, we paid for it in cash. And I. I got goosebumps. Me. Me too. I was so proud of them. You know, they. They maintained it and they created. So that's, you know, that's a. That's a great outcome. You know, we've had really tricky situations where we've gone far and beyond and got people removed from title deeds to waive money. Like we wave $250,000 from client because her ex brought her into. They'd done the financial settlement, but basically he hadn't gone and got the loan that he went bankrupt. And, you know, she basically got left with the shortfall, and we managed to fight that and get that off and, you know, saved a huge amount. So there's a couple.

I can think of a couple over the years, just from when I had, you know, the active. In the mortgage broking and some of the clients I was dealing with, there were issues where people had that financial settlement, the divorce, the separation. But the credit card was in both names. And in this one case I can think of, this poor woman, the husband went off and spent all heaps on the credit card. And the agreement was that she was going to pay the credit card. And so he had that in kind of the agreement, but he was still spending, and she couldn't get him off the card because they had to go into the bank together to get him off the card. Like, it sounds to me like that having someone who knows how to deal with the banks, et cetera, and having that a situation would have been a whole lot easier.

I mean, things that. Like that. That's financial abuse, right? So things like that for, you know, are really close to my heart. I'm very much about giving back. I've been through a domestic violence situation myself, and, you know, I know the pressure of that as well. And I think that, you know, financial, like people who are financial, like victims of financial abuse or domestic violence or whatever, they feel like they're trapped in situations that they can't get out of, and they feel they're manipulated into doing, you know, things that they shouldn't have. So, you know, we've we've waived, I think it was about $200,000 for a client who was in a very serious domestic violence situation. It was, it was a very serious situation and we managed to get her out of it. And, you know, she kept a house and she was able to move and get away from him and, you know, all of that stuff and that, you know, that's, it's life changing, life changing for them and just so incredibly fulfilling to see somebody turn their life completely around and reset themselves and, you know, take themselves on and move forward. And, you know, it's, it's beautiful, beautiful to watch. I mean, I've got so many success stories.

One of the things I love about your company is that you actively say, like, I want, I want to help and serve and get you out of this situation, but I never want to see you again. Like, I want the return client, you know, like, I'm setting you up. So we never see each other, other than you sending me little messages going, guess what? We've had a win. And you've actually teaching people, you know, how to change the way or their relationship with money so they don't get into the situation again.

Yeah, absolutely. It's so important.

How's the book in engaging debt Solutions? Like what, what, how do you, how do people pay? Is there a number of options? What, what can happen?

Oh, absolutely. So when, when, so when people come to us and they're, they're grappling. When they're grappling. Thank you. When people are coming to us and they're grappling financially, obviously they don't have money to pay for the fees up front. So what I've done is I've structured it in a way that the establishment and the debt setup fee is paid over, you know, a couple of months or three months, four months, whatever it is. And you know, they're introduced directly to the accounts team and we have clear lines of communication. Now. Obviously, you know, I've got a business, I'm working for my home office today, but I do have a company and an office in the city with a.

Whole lot of stuff.

Yeah, but, you know, so I have to pay my bills. But, you know, within reason we understand that things happen and life happens and stuff. So we're quite. There's an ebb and flow of how we deal with people in that scenario. And yeah, as I said, we just won't take somebody on if we can't save them more. So, for example, if you came to me with just say three credit cards A personal loan, a car loan, right? And we stop payments on all of them, depending on the amounts and all the rest of it. You've got a few thousand dollars that in your account now that you didn't have beforehand, right? So effectively what I say to people is that people are paying us to keep the creditors away so that we can then work with them to get their mindset, right, to get their financial situation straight, to know where they stand. So that once we know that, we can go back and negotiate with the creditors and find that solution that works them for, for them. And that's when we do that, you know, settlement or loan variation or long term arrangement or whatever it is that's right for their situation. We don't do it all at once. So in that situation, we might have freed up some cash flow and be able to settle some debt for less, but we wouldn't do all of it at once. Do you know what I mean?

So then you start with stopping the payments basically, or negotiating, not stopping patients, letting the people, banks or whatever they are, know that there's a situation going on. We're stopping for a short period of time. We will be back soon. We're just reorganizing things. And I mean, which is a relief because I didn't even know that was possible. And the fact that you've got someone in there who knows that, who can, can make that kind of call. But then obviously the money that went to the mortgage and the credit cards and everything now is pooling whilst you're making the plan. So there's money to do the payment plan with as well. And that just amazing, correct?

And it gives people, you know, when, when, when you're working with them to that point and they start to see money. Like I remember one client, she was beautiful. It was actually quite terrifying. She, she, she found us and she said she'd already written a letter ending her life. It was, it was her, it was terrifying. It was like by the end of February and she came to us like the 20th or something, like it was pretty touch and go. And one of the things, yes, some of them are really full on. One of the things that she said was she had two young kids and she said, I just want to take them somewhere. And now I'm gonna cry.

Oh my God, look what you've done to us. Okay.

She's like, I just want to take them anywhere, like do something with them. And I just said, listen, put your parent up to us off for a little bit, get this little bit of money. And do something with your kids. And she sent me all these gorgeous photos of them at a, at a, at a park, like a, like a fair, like a, like a lunar park. But yeah, something like that. And she didn't spend much, she just spent the entry and she took her own food because she was conditioned to all of that. But you know, getting her being able to give to her kids. And I say that all the time, like we work so hard that if all of our money is going out, how we're being rewarded. And that's why I, you know, why I was doing back then, the cigarette and you know, the coffee, because it was my little dopamine hit, my little moment of sense serenity. And if we don't have that moment of serenity, we don't have that opportunity to enjoy the fruits of our labor, then what the hell are we doing it for? So, you know, you have to have that balance as well. Like we do say to clients, you know, you head down, bum up, come in, let's get it sorted. We're not here to tread water. We want to sort you out and get you on your way as quickly as possible. But at the same time, you need to enjoy life. If you can't enjoy what you're doing, you become resentful and angry and it perfectly like goes towards every area of your life and it's heartbreaking. So yeah, you know, I mean my team is phenomenal. They are so caring and so kind and so warm and compassionate. And you asked me about the accountability. So we offer as part of our establishment fee. Oh, and you asked me about payment. Right. So there's an establishment fee, a debt setup fee that puts arrangements in place and a settlement fee. So when they win, we win. Kind of like that. And then a management fee. Right. So again, it all kind of just ties in and we put it on a payment plan clients, so it's workable. But when a client comes in and part of the establishment fee, which by the way is only $660, they get between four and eight coaching calls. And that's a one on one coaching call with your own debt angel, which is the case manager. And they work with you through a series of questions, a series of process.

To the same person through the whole process. So you've got a relationship with them.

Correct. And you're not a number with us. You know, we, we will, we have been over backwards, sideways, inside out to find solutions for people because we've had a, we had one lady who was involved in a business this Was a. This was a scary story. She was involved with the business. A young girl, like 30, working, physically working for a company that went bankrupt. She'd invested in the company. The company. Basically, she lost her investment, which was a house. She lost her investment. A little bit of money she had left over from the loan that she got to put it as a down payment. She then used that to invest into her own business. Built a huge following on social media, went into activewear, got a huge delivery. It was sitting in Lithgow when the floods came in. Lost everything. No insurance. Right. And young. Right. So the banks look for what they call a recoverable position, like a solution. And she had not. And with. With that came the anxiety and the depression and the fear and the, you know, berating yourself and all of that stuff came with it. And she got sick, really sick. Like she started. I call it the disease. Like the dis. Ease created multiple.

Makes sense.

And so we went back and fought and fought and fought and I think we submitted to the bank six times. This not the same. We had to keep changing it bending. And however we kept going, no, this is the outcome we want and it doesn't change the bottom line financially about what we get. It's the same. But we managed in the end to get the outcome and so we waived that. I think it was just shy of 40 grand. We waived all of that for her. And now how she is, she's starting to have the freedom to fix herself and like the diseases that. Like there's some things that are in there that she needs to handle and she will do for life, but at least she now doesn't have that additional.

She's got the mental space.

She does, she does.

Oh, well, look, I really appreciate you sharing this because I know there'll be a lot of people who are going to be watching this on recording and in the privacy of your own home without turning up. And I imagine we're not going to get a lot of messages down the bottom, but I really encourage people to reach out to you. I want to just share with everyone.

Can I cover one more thing that might be relevant while I sort out.

Your site so I can put it on there? Yes, please do.

In relation to mortgages, right. Most people think, well, I have to pay my mortgage. If I don't pay my mortgage, I'll go into arrears and if I go into arrears, then what am I going to do and how am I going to cover off? Like, how am I going to survive? Right. So if a Mortgage goes into a raise, if it's in an arrangement, you can do something called capitalizing the arrears, right? And what that means is if you have got, let's just say you're paying $5,000 a month, $5,000 a month on your mortgage and you get into a reuse of $15,000, the banks will traditionally want you to come in and go okay, I'm going to you, we can hold it for that long but you're going to need to make up that $15,000 worth of of payment. You need to make that $15,000 worth of payment over the next whatever three months ideally, which is impossible because you got, you weren't able to make it in the first place. And then they say very generously, maybe six months, if you push them maybe 12 months. I call bullshit on that because there's another way and it's called serviceability. So if you get to the end of that, let's say three month period where you're $15,000 in a year, you've cleaned up some of the mess, that you've got additional expenses, you can prove to them that you're able to service a loan and then you service the loan. So make the payment on time, every time, not a day late or a dollar short for six months. What it will do is it will basically allow you to capitalize your re. So put the arrears $15,000 onto the end of the mortgage which will increase the mortgage amount a little bit. But if you think about it, the span, time frame, it's such a small amount comparative to trying to pay back 15, 20, 30,000 or dipping into your super to pay it, etc. So and the other thing is that you know, you, most people I believe, and you probably know about this more than me, but you can pay interest only on a mortgage for up to a year of that mortgage, right? So if you are being hit by this, you're trying to make a decision about what you're going to do, you know, your interest rates have gone up like you were saying before and it was what's going to happen to me? You know, most of the country you have these options and these times, so maybe just even having that respite for a moment so you can think and you can try and work out what that solution is, would be handy. And again, you know, so many brokers I speak to don't know about it because the banks don't tell people and the bank tell people don't know about it either because it's not commonly spoke about, which is my stand, my stand is to share what's possible so people know when they have freedom to choose rather than being forced into an outcome.

And just on that mortgage. Every bank has a different policy, but they have an entire team to help people in distress. And it's not just, you know, people who've been, you know, lost a home through bushfires or floods, et cetera. You know, they're there to talk and they do want to work through issues before you get to a point that you can't pay your mortgage. And so, you know, especially during COVID especially a lot of self employed people and we really gave them that advice on how to, how to call up and the options and what to ask for just because you know, as you say, they're not going to volunteer the information. Half the information you've shared today I didn't even know existed. And the fact that you can actually like call quits for a second and get yourself arranged and then get into an arrangement, I mean, what a relief for people knowing that you don't have to get that first missed payment and that stress before you can take action. So now I really would be keen to just show people, hopefully this is just showing in stream right now, but show you your website so that we can actually. I'm just going to turn our videos off for a moment. Am I turning the video off? There you go. I'd love people to just check out the website here because you know, go to debtangelsolutions.com I'm going to put dot com. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to put this in the Facebook group so you can actually see it because I think it's really, really important that you know, we have the opportunity to really go through and show exactly, you know, what people, people's options are. Kitty's also got, and I'll put this also in the links, she's got a YouTube channel that has a lot of videos that you can watch just on this, the information about what you can do, other people's success stories as well. Because you know, the fact of the matter is that you're not Robinson Crusoe if you're going through a little bit of pain at the moment. There's so many people who are going through pain and there's so many people who are, who are having a difficult time. So you know, we really just want you to know that there is a solution, there is a way out of this. You know, it all starts with a phone call, complimentary phone call. You know, Dead Angel Solutions and just, just have the conversation and it's confidential. No one need to know. Rather than getting, you know, a hit on your credit file and all of those things that can come in, the mental and the, the physical manifestation of that disease becoming a disease, just reach out if you are in trouble because there are solutions out there. They're economical. They're not going to be charging you thousands of dollars up front, 660 bucks as an engagement fee. And that's part of the program that can be negotiated, when you can pay that and how you pay that as well, and obviously the management fees and arrangement fees. But, you know, I just want you to know that there is definitely a way out. If you are one of the many, many people who are currently, you know, at the point going, if there's another interest rate rise or if the kids have to go on a school excursion, or if I have to, you know, go and go off work for a while because of an injury or, you know, need to get my tooth fixed or whatever that is, you know, there is a way forward. And, you know, I really appreciate that. Kitty just making time for us today and sharing her solution. When she first reached out to me and we were chatting at an event we were at recently and she was telling what she's doing, I'm like, everyone should know about this. I would call myself financially astute, but some of the things and some of the stories that she told me, people don't need to get to the point. And the number one reason for divorce in Australia, in the world, actually, is around financial issues. And if we can actually, you know, have people dealing with these issues, having the communication, changing their mindset, their patterns, the way that they actually. The situations that have got them into where they are now, and having the support of people who've done this before and having one of the amazing angels, you know, taking you forward and helping you out, I just think that's just an absolute need that we need to tell more people about. So I reckon if you had some credit card, not credit cards, business cards, we could just like scatter them around the city just so people can like, you know, anonymously pick them up and give you a call. But if you are having issues, I really think give Kitty a call, give her team a call and just reach out, because there's people out there and obviously you can reach out to me too, and, you know, please, you know, anything that you feel that you need, there is always a solution around there. And, you know, people who are taking that Kind of running the last letter solution with a young family. That's just heartbreaking. People don't need to get in that situation. So, Kitty, some final thoughts or words over to you.

I just, I just. I interrupted briefly because we've just done that. We've actually got a QR code with a link to the unspoken video that's on our website that just. I guess it personalizes, you know, my story and shares it so that people realize that where it's coming from. But we've just done a. Remember that stay calm and call or whatever. Yeah, stay calm, call a debt angel. And on the back there's a. Like a QR code with angel wings and said, there is another way. And that's it. That's all it says. I do want to take that fear and shame and stuff away. I want people to know that it's totally fine, that you're human and that, you know, whatever doesn't kill you really does make you stronger. It's you not dealing with stuff that kills you and deal with it and take it on and it's just money. It isn't worth the pain and the suffering and the. The. The things that come with all of that. Like, it just isn't worth it. You know, that you can get untangled and you can get back on and, you know, it's. It's beautiful to, to be. To be here watching and thank you so much for, like, inviting me to share. You know, I just want something. I want people to know. What else possible.

I know. Oh, well, if I can get this out as much as possible, I will, because I know it is, as you say, there's shame, there's embarrassment, there's fear. You know, there's so many thoughts that come up around being in a situation where you feel that you're out of control. And, you know, if I can say anything, you know, one of the concepts I introduced to my mentoring clients last week was around resilience, and it was around the fact that success leaves the clues like you, you are here now because you have actually got through many trials, many tribulations. You have got a Resilience cv, which is what I'm calling it, and we've got all got a resilient cv. We just have to sometimes go back and go, you know what? I had a hard time and I did get through it, and maybe I learned something from it didn't turn out how I thought it was going to be. This is another hard time. You know, you're not Robinson Crusoe please reach out to someone if you're in need, because you know there are solutions. And Dead angel solutions just might be your solution. So thank you, Kitty. Thank you, everyone. And as always, here is to your success. Bye for now, everyone.

Bye.