1018 The Spiritual Guide to Inner Peace, Mastering Grief & Understanding God w/Rob Bell

I'm gonna ask you a question you probably don't like answering.

Now I'm like, let's do this question.

Is there a God? What is God? I feel like people always want to know what this answer is.

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. British writer Alan Watts once said, you, are a function of what the whole universe is doing in the same way that a wave is a function of what the whole ocean is doing. An American astronomer and author Carl Sagan wrote, Science is not only compatible with spirituality, It is a profound source of spirituality. My guest today has decades of wisdom and curiosity about spirituality, human experience, and the nature of the universe, and is one of my personal favorites to have on the show. As a dear friend of mine, someone I care deeply about, I appreciate his wisdom and just love our friendship. Rob Bell is a speaker, former pastor, best-selling author of many books. Time magazine named him one of the most 100 influential people in the world. And he's the author of the latest book, everything is spiritual. And we always have deeply profound conversations, but I'm telling you, this one is a game changer. And in this episode, we discuss the nature of the universe and the Human Experience, how to spiritually evolve to find joy and love in difficult and painful situations, communicating with people that disagree. This is huge for right now. The spiritual tools to handle any adversity in life, why you have to talk about what you've never talked about, how grief and imagination are so closely related when to create boundaries with friends and family. And I asked him a big question, what is God? Make sure to share this with someone who needs to hear it while you're listening. And a quick reminder to subscribe to the School of Greatness over on Apple podcast and leave us a rating and review as well. Okay, after this quick message, the one and only Rob Bell greatness.

Welcome, everyone, back to the School of Greatest podcast. Super pumped for my man Rob Bell in the house. Air pounds.

COVID fist bumps.

So glad you're here, man.

Over the top of face masks.

Exactly. So glad you're here, man. It's so good to see you. I think this is our fourth or fifth interview together. We've done probably three in the past. Every time someone asks me who is your favorite or some of your favorite guests, I have to reference you. You're always in my top five. Of course, Kobe is my favorite. And I've had some other big names that I've always wanted to have, but you came into my life When I was just like needing more spiritual grounding and a compass to keep me on the right track and also just to like answer questions that I had about life. And I feel like every time you come on, I get more and more clear and less clear at the same time.

Okay.

Because spirituality and the universe is hard to understand.

Yeah, yeah. That's the thing about actual mystery. Mystery isn't something you can't know. Mystery is something you can know endlessly. So for a lot of people, they bump into mystery and they're like, that just seems, it's just all fuzzy woo-woo, whatever. Oh, no, no, no, no. Love, the nature of the cosmos, the depth of the human heart. These are great mysteries, but you can actually know them. It's just a different kind of knowing. It's like a bottomless infinite knowing.

What's the mystery that you still don't know?

I mean, think about you, like the first time we met and talked. I remember in that interview, oh, he's asking questions 'cause he's a good interviewer, 'cause he has a show and he's building a whole thing here, but he's into this. Yeah. He's not just asking, he's asking. I remember. Yeah. There was a deep knowing you were after. And right away I was like, oh, I didn't know your background, But I was like, oh, there's a whole history here. I remember sensing Lewis probably came up through some world that gave him some vision of the world. Because most people, well, all of us, we came up through a tribe, through a subculture, through a family system, business, academic, sports, whatever, that gave us a way to navigate the world. But then you go out and become who you're becoming. And some of that works. But some of it doesn't. So there's this ancient pattern of orientation, disorientation, reorientation.

And I feel like every season of life you're going through the same pattern.

I'm often doing this. So when I first met you, I remember thinking, oh yeah, Lewis is like, there's a bunch of things that he was handed that don't work anymore. So he sort of like tossed those. But his heart is open and his mind is engaged. I remember that thinking, So he's looking, okay, so how do you think about... Even like the word God, which essentially means ultimate reality. And oftentimes people think of the word God as like a religious term, which is it's much more helpful to think about it, like what is the nature of this universe that we call home? Like what's the thing behind the thing behind the thing? What's the source? Because people are always talking about God, they just use different words for it. Remember you were asking all those sorts of questions. Yeah. Is it a place of love, generosity, hope? Are we going to be okay? Or is it a cold, dark, lonely place where you might as well just throw some elbows and fight for your peace and see what happens?

Yeah, something I love about your message in one of our interviews, I deeply remember one of the interviews we did, you saying something about, you know, the universe is 13 billion years old and there's so much dark matter, unknown, darkness, scary, crazy things, and we would actually not exist without the dark matter.

Isn't that like, yeah, scientists are like basically 4% of the universe is sort of known and 96% of it black holes, dark matter, dark energy, and we kind of have a vague sense, even the best scientists are like, we kind of have a sense of what that is. We just know that it's somehow integral to the life of the universe. And then you talk to most of us, who have dark matter regrets, mistakes, things we would have done differently, things were like, please don't bring that up. And yet, it's the engine of life. It's how you grow, it's how you expand, how your consciousness awakens is generally the tough stuff.

So we need the tough stuff in order to grow, expand, live, and understand what the 4% of beauty is.

Well, think about like you're at dinner, like you're at a dinner party and there's some guy named Chuck at the end of the table and he's like, I was always pretty awesome. And then I tried some other stuff and I was good at that too. Then I started branch out and I was pretty sweet at that. Get that guy, right? Get that guy doesn't... So boring. But this person over here was like, yeah, I fell face down three times. I lost all my money. I tried some other stuff. Okay, now this is somebody. It's like the ache. Yeah. Is actually what draws us to each other.

Where we connect.

Yeah, right.

Imagine someone in your position who is been a spiritual guide for so many years, and this has been your path and your mission. How does someone like you handle adversity when it comes now? Or do you not even see adversity as actually a bad thing or something that knocks you off track? How do you actually- Hey, what a great question. Stay at a level of grounded spiritual peace when it hits you?

Honestly, now, A good chunk of the time I start smiling. Anger, rage, like something was like, what was I thinking? Why did I fire off that email? The real art is to witness to it. Oh, look. There's, I'm angry, and then there's, oh, look, anger. So the problem is for most people, adversity They identify, the adversity becomes everything. But the real art of a spiritual vision for life is you're learning how to witness to it. Oh, look, this person gets under my skin.

Wow.

In a supernatural way. Like in the book, I talk about, so you can just let you can have it be parts division. I want nothing to do with that person because they walk in the room and my blood boils. Or all parts exist within a greater whole. This person is my teacher. So there's some reason why they get under my skin, why they provoke me, why they can just set me off like that. What is it? What are they here to teach me? But, yeah, adversity. Like, even this past half year with lockdown and. There are days that are just, what the... I wake up in the morning, take the dog for a walk, and I'm.

Like, what do we... What's happening in this world?

Like your head is just spinning. So I just go, okay, hold on, take a deep breath, witness to it, and then remember that you'll have everything you need for the day when you need it. The only place you can ever be is here. Yeah. The only thing that goes on forever is now.

You can't think about the future too much.

Yeah. But adversity, like I noticed recently somebody mentioned failure and almost conceptually I don't know. I sense you have the same thing. Do you even now have the category of failure?

No, I mean we talk about all the time as feedback.

Right.

It's information that's telling us what we shouldn't be doing or what we could be doing better.

It's data.

Yeah, it's information.

And a good story.

Great story. There's no good movie out there. It's just like the person's life was amazing. There was no adversary, there was no challenger. It's like you have to conquer something.

Right, right.

For it to be a good story.

Right, right, right. There's this old story in the book of Genesis about Jacob wrestles an angel, and he gets his hip injured. And the rabbis talk about Jacob walks away limping. but he's experienced the divine. Why? So there's like a limp.

Why is he experiencing the divine?

He's wrestled with who he is. In the first time you meet him, he's pretending to be his brother. Who are you? And he gives his brother's name. But then when he wrestles with the divine, I'm Jacob. So actually if you trace the story, it's somebody becoming comfortable in his own skin. Because when you first meet him, he's trying to be somebody else.

And now he's owning himself.

And now he's, I'm Jacob. And so this path we all go on to learn to be comfortable in your own skin. This is how I am. This is where I'm from. That's why Lebron always says he's from Akron. You gotta own every square inch of your story. Yeah.

What happens if we don't own our story?

You got bits and pieces. that you don't know what to do with. Often they haunt the house.

Ooh.

They're present. Anything that doesn't get named or expressed, then it's lurking somewhere. You develop a shadow. So think about any family system, any business, any partnership where there's two columns, things we can talk about and things we can't. The things in the column that we can't talk about that can't be said are running the show.

Those are the things you need to be talking about.

Yes, and if they can't be spoken, then they're the shadow, they're the underbelly, they haunt the house, and they actually are running the show.

And that's what's keeping you from what you want. More joy in your life.

Everybody's agreed not to talk about that. Tell me what you can't talk about, we can diagnose quite quickly. The thing.

Why is it so hard for people to talk about the thing they don't want to name? When that's the answer.

Right, right, right, right, right, right. Yeah, the terror of could we speak that and be okay? Could we face that and it wouldn't blow things to pieces? Yeah, it might. It might. The truth might get spoken. And the current structure and arrangement might be blasted to pieces.

But at least you'll be free.

You'd be free. So, which... You want freedom? Would you like?

And potential chaos of blowing up the system?

Right. You can't have new creation without a disruption of the current creation. So, like in America right now, We need to police ourselves in new and better ways. Greater community responsibility, less brutality, obviously. But to police ourselves in a better way, there will have to be a disruption in the way that we currently understand what we mean by policing.

Yeah.

Because it's not working. Right. And generally, somebody somewhere has a vested interest in the current arrangement. People generally don't understand things if their paycheck is dependent on them not understanding it.

Right.

So yeah, for there to be new creation, there'll probably have to be some sort of disruption of the present creation, which always has a structure, which always has somebody with a vested interest. Power, money is probably lurking. Yeah, so in some ways the work that we do is helping people, like it's okay. It's okay. You can speak the thing, you can say it, you can name it. Yeah, it might be blown to shreds, but on the other side, you'll be free.

Peace.

It'll be so much better.

What are the questions all humans should be asking themselves during a time like this of uncertainty, of chaos, of I'm not sure what's gonna happen, of information overload, When we don't even know where tomorrow will bring us, we don't even know if we're gonna have our jobs and health and scariness. What are the questions we should ask ourselves about life, God, why we're here?

Yeah. The first thing is what new creation is waiting to be birthed in this. So you think about like America spends twice as much on health care as other first world countries and our health care is way worse. So and most personal bankruptcies are rooted in a health care system doesn't work. So everything is spiritual, but this is all spiritual. How do we, what does health look like in the way that we've arranged ourselves? So you can see it all as a, this thing isn't working, but if you immediately have that, this thing isn't working. Okay, well then how should we arrange it? So grief and imagination have a long-standing relationship. 'Cause grief is loss, and anytime you're losing something, anytime there's grief, which is loss, that's always where the seeds of imagination are hiding. This thing is passing away. Well, then by default we're gonna have to cook up something new. So you can see it, especially in the ancient tradition, anytime there's grief, that's always the moment to keep your eyes peeled, because this is always where the imagination begins to arise. Yeah, well, if, if that thing's gone, well, how would we do it if we had to start over? So I think that's the number one question right now. Are there better ways for education? Are the, think of all the, think of all the things that aren't working like they used to. And you can see that disorientation as terrifying and.

Well, you know, it's interesting is it's. Typically hard for a lot of people to make a change in their life without a near-death experience, without a sickness, a cancer scare, someone in the family close to them dying, a divorce, a death of something.

Yes.

Well, for us to say, this isn't working for me, I've got to start eating better. I got fired from my job. You know what? I didn't like it there anyways. What do I really want?

It was weirdly a gift that they gave. Yeah, yeah.

So it's almost like since the world hasn't been able to make the change on its own, It's being forced to change in a drastic and uncomfortable painful way.

Yes.

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When I started out, like 24, 25, I started out as a pastor. And so the job was basically walking with people through the awful stuff of life. The good stuff, weddings, but funerals. Hospital.

You were the one showing up at the hospital, at the home.

And I wasn't even prepared for this. The job of the pastor is somebody calls and is like, My dad just got sent to prison. We need somebody with an official credential because none of us can get in to visit him right now. Could you please go visit him because he hasn't had any visitors? Okay. So I would, I, and for, especially in the beginning, my like mantra was, I'll go anywhere. I'll talk to anybody. But what happened is I would end up, the 16 year old hung himself and now I'm in the hospital room with his family. standing over the casket with this guy and his wife is in the casket and this is the woman he's been with for 50 years. I mean this and I'm like 25, 26. But what I kept noticing is I would see the person in the lowest moment but then I'd see them a month later, six months later, 12 months later and I would watch how some people got smaller. It's almost like their soul constricted. They became bitter. Life owes me stuck back there. But then most people, which I didn't see coming, most people, it took them to these new places they never would have gone.

Breakthroughs.

Big, wide, expansive. And then I would notice people would say things to me like, They'd say, that was a hell on earth. You were with me in that time. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. And yet now, if I hadn't have gone through that, I can't imagine where I would be. Right.

It's almost like we need those things.

It was so weird because they would say things like, Honestly now, and you could see the word on the tip of their tongue was grateful. They'd be like, I'm honestly kind of, I can't say grateful, but that's actually the word, but it feels so Counterintuitive and yet so right away like my late 20s There's something upside down about the whole way this thing works and all of the endless striving to win be successful make a bunch of money have everybody okay fine. Yeah, that's great, but the actual game that you really want to be playing is like upside down. Yeah, it works so differently. I then everybody was taught.

What's the game we should be playing?

Well, what's interesting is how many people have a deep knowing. So they would be like, my job isn't working out. I don't feel like my life is where it's supposed to be. And just a couple of questions in instantly, I'd say, do you think that? Or are you reading off someone else's script? Or even inviting people, please don't tell me what you think. Tell me what sits on top of your heart. And to this day, a lot of the work I do is just inviting people, 'cause soul knows, heart knows, mind chatters, it compares, it's envious, it's jealous. Your mind is all over the place. It's like looking at someone so's Instagram followers. It's lovely, it's also a wreck. But the amount of times when you sit in silence or you create a space where somebody can listen for the real thing, I'll often invite people to sink down into heart, and the person knows instantly, oh, that direction, that person, that job. So there's like a deep knowing that all human beings have. And the number of people who would say, something within me was telling me things, but I went with what everybody around me was saying. And later I was like, I knew it the whole time. Yeah. So, and I think that's actually the great cultural crisis right now.

You've talked about in the past about how doubt is actually essential for faith. I think, I don't know how you're.

Like we have partners. Right?

It's like you need doubt in order to have faith. I think something like that.

Sure, sure.

So, how should people address doubt, whether it be doubt on the external or internal self-doubt, Also, is there anything you're doubting right now?

Yeah, doubt's really interesting. I think it's all part of it. Of course you have questions. If you don't have questions right now, where is this thing headed? What is going on? Doubt is all part of it because it's all part of the full spectrum of the human experience. I actually now, The work that I do, the stuff I do is because when I first started to think about it, I'm like, I don't know if I could pull that off. I don't know. Could I, I don't know. Could that, would that work?

Really? The great, the great spiritual Rob Bell.

Oh, yeah, sure.

10-Time best-selling author, one of the most influential people in America, Time Magazine, on tour with Oprah. You ask yourself, Could I pull this off?

The first line of this book is, My grandma used to keep cash in her bra.

Yeah, and she would ask you if 10 or two fives?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He'd ask you for a 20 and she'd say, well, 10 or two fives, dude, she'd reach in her shirt. When all of a sudden I realized, oh, this book is you starting way back there and telling what it's like to be you and all the missteps and awkward moments. Would that work? Could I do that? Is there something there? The question mark, the like curiosity, that's a weird book to write. Opening with that line, like yeah, that's how it works now for me.

How do you find the self-confidence or the belief When you doubt yourself? How do you develop that skill? Whether it's a spiritual, mental, physical skill, what is that?

I always ask, Where's the joy? Or, Where's the life? So, is it good or bad? Is it right or wrong? Is it not interesting questions? The question is, well, one question is simply, Where's the curiosity? Because curiosity is underrated. Calling is overrated, curiosity is underrated. Calling is that sort of high sense of, this is what I'm here for. This is my, okay fine, yeah whatever. What are you curious about? Your whole thing is curiosity. You follow it the whole time. How can I help people in this way? How does it work? You know about this. Curiosity is the engine. So you'll think about, you'll see a film, that moves you. And so you go read interviews with the director, the director's always, I wanted to tell this story. I had this, it's like, I want to try to make this or humanitarian work. I want to try to help people or education. I thought there's a new way to teach people this. Curiosity is the thing. So that's often-- so when we doubt.

Ourselves, what should we be thinking as opposed to, oh, am I gonna be able to do this? Maybe I'm not good enough. I don't have the skills. I don't have the experience.

What should we be asking in terms of-- Because the doubt is, Authority, legitimacy, imposter syndrome, what if no one cares? What if it doesn't sell? What if I try it doesn't work? None of those are interesting questions and all of those questions pull you out of the present moment and put you in the future.

That doesn't exist.

Right, right. So that's the thing about the only moment we ever have is now, is this takes you into a different relationship with time. Regret is stuck in the past, worry is stuck in the future. But what's interesting is all of the questions of self-doubt that keep people from doing the thing are in the future, which isn't real. That's an illusion. So the only interesting question is, what do you want to do now? Like, what do you want to do? Right.

And why are you curious about that?

With our culture, it was so like, you need to get good grades, you need to go get a good job instead of Like, what do you want? Think about how many people their family system literally trained them away from their heart. Like at early ages they had something rising up within heart demanding expression and what they were taught is whatever you do, don't listen to that. Actually be suspicious of that.

It's probably why a lot of kids are rebellious.

That kid Right, that kid has a problem because that kid's responding to a system that is splitting her from her true self. So she's actually responding in a very healthy way to a system that isn't... She's rejecting it. Some people think the greatest American architect was Louis Kahn. And when he would begin designing a building, Louis Kahn would ask, what does this building want to be? Isn't that great?

It's kind of like a sculptor who's.

Like, Chilling away what does this want to be? So like you think about every parent with every kid, what does this kid want to be?

Like what do I want this kid to be?

What we're here to do is to watch this kid discover who they're here to be. That's the only game to be playing. So the self-doubt, the lack of confidence, I don't know if I'll be any good, Never an interesting question. The question is, where's the curiosity? What's the thing that something within you is like, oh, I would like to try that. There's this interesting thing in Hebrew consciousness, Moses in the Torah is told, I put before you... the divine says to Moses, I put before you life and death. And we read life and death as, you,'re here living and then you die. two modes here and then gone somewhere else dead. But in Hebrew consciousness, life and death are two modes of being right here and right now. So you could be living alive, breathing, but actually dying. It's possible to be living and dying, which I think is really helpful because I'm sure you've interacted with people who are like, this thing over here seems trivial, but it keeps Tugging on my sleeve calling me to it. It will I get the wake in the night thinking yeah, yeah, yeah, that's where the life is. Yeah, so just own it. It's a matter of life and death. Wow. Something within me dies if I don't.

Try that if I don't lean into my curiosity. Yeah, the thing that's on my heart.

Yeah, yeah, you got some idea you got some if you reframe it as if I'm not true to whatever the This is something within me dies. Yeah, that might be the way that might get you out of a lot of different situations where you're all bound up and stuck and the energies are all... Mm-. Yeah.

I'm curious, what were the few big questions you asked yourself before pastor school? Did you ask yourself, I mean, I feel like there's a lot of questions, there's three main questions I feel like a lot of people ask. Why am I here or slash what's my purpose? Is there a God? And what happens after I die? Did you ask yourself those questions ever before going into pastor school and this training? What were those answers for you then? And what are those answers for you now?

They're probably the same exact answers.

Really?

I had, in college, I was in this band.

Yes.

Lead singer. Lead singer syndrome.

Scar band.

So it was more like, it was called Alternative at that time, in the late 80s, which basically meant not Bon Jovi. But, There was something about creating these songs and then we'd play these shows like us and like six punk bands in a basement somewhere. It was like there was something communal. There's all this energy, all these bodies. There was something about I would write these lyrics, something about what I was experiencing and then giving it expression and then watching people sing the lyrics. There was some sort of I was doing some, it was like a tribal fire, you know what I mean? It was like harnessing, it was like lassoing the love and energy in the room and all of us going somewhere together. And I was probably, I was 19. Yeah, so there was something in that that was like naming the thing that we're all experiencing. that it struck a, it was the first time in my life I was like, oh, this is something I like, 'cause there was always a better student. There was always better athletes. There were all the cool kids who got invited to all the right parties. Everywhere I turned, the world was ranked. Sound familiar?

Yes.

Everywhere I turned, there was somebody who was winning, and I was nine clicks down. But what's interesting about that impulse when I stumbled into it is it wasn't like, oh, I could be the best at this. It was like it tossed out even the idea of ranking. It was just, this is where the joy is. Then the band broke up as college bands do. And there was something about the big questions, the big mysteries.

What were the big questions for you?

What are we doing here? How's this thing work? what is. What is. What is meaning? Why do some things matter and some things don't? My parents said, my parents have taken us to church here and there. So I had, like, I I was familiar with the idea of, like, spirituality. It always seemed kind of not boring. Just like, this can't. If this is it, this should be the juice. This should, like. The big stuff, why is it so like sweater vests and acoustic guitars? This thing is like, this should be awesome. So I think something within me was like, I'm gonna do my version of that. And in the world I came from, intellectual rigor was very important. So it's like, well then you need to go get a master's degree in divinity, which I laugh now, a masters in in divinity. I never at the time was like a master of the divine. Like that's... You know what I mean? Yeah. That's just a ridiculous premise. But so I, so that's sort of in the world. Because we all come from these worlds that are like, oh, you want to do that? This is how you do it. But yeah, it was all, what's going on here? How do you forgive people who have wronged you? What kind of universe is this? Is this whole thing headed somewhere? Or is it just a series of random events that you sort of duct tape together your own version of? And then, so I learned a number of things, but they also, you learn stuff and it just creates new questions. So, that's how it works now.

Is there anything that you are firmly a believer in? for, I don't know, the last 20-something years that you've started to question in a different way that you're like, you know what? Maybe that's not true to me anymore. A set of beliefs, one belief, two beliefs that you question again. That maybe you were so firm on believing.

Oh, guarantees? Oh, you're gonna be fine. Everything's fine. Instead of oh, I have no idea how it's gonna go.

So you used to have the belief that everything's gonna work out, it's all gonna be fine.

The goal is to comfort.

Yes.

The goal is to give people a rock solid foundation. Here are the things you, here's the ground that you can stand on that won't shift. Because that's what everybody wants. Just show me the rug that's not gonna get pulled.

Yeah, yeah. Now what? Now we're, and how do you think?

Uncertainty is baked into the whole thing. The people that we love the most, the structures that we all are like, well, this will be around the whole way. Who knows? Yeah. Who knows? Even when I began to study quantum physics and everything is made of atoms and atoms are made of particles and particles come and go and there's probabilities, but ultimately, in empty space, a particle comes into existence and then a particle, they don't know where it came from, they don't know where it goes. that the whole thing is a relationship of energy that is deeply, deeply mysterious. And the more we know about it and the probabilities that help you make airplanes and flat-screen TVs, it's still, I think the uncertainty is all part of it. It's okay. And slightly terrifying, sometimes really terrifying. So like, Louis, just do these things, you'll be fine. Louis, do these things and your whole thing might completely catch on fire. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And you'll be okay. So all the paradoxes and contradictions, all the paradoxes and contradictions, you might get everything you ever wanted. All your dreams might come true. And you might, in that moment, realize there might be a dull thud of, this is it. Mm-. And that's all part of it. So I think I'm much more, even this book is embracing all the weirdness and painfulness and ache of it. Instead of how to get rid of it, how to embrace it as all part of it.

Don't eliminate the pain and suffering.

Right, right, right, the limp.

Don't comfort yourself. Don't try to medicate. Don't try to find the new addiction.

Yeah, the limp.

Sit with it.

Yeah, yeah, you're walking with the limp, but you've experienced something that's changed you.

What is certain to you? Is there any certainty?

Now, the awareness that you and I are present here in these bodies, getting to connect soul to soul. and the bottomless, infinite joy of that. So more and more of the present moment and all that is present here, more than enough. This, more than enough.

That's what's certain. Nothing else is certain.

I love the follow-up question to that. When we talk about how the whole thing works, this is what we get. And then my son Trace is there and then we'll go home and the family will be there. Yeah, obviously we're all like, that's the lifeblood of life. But where it'll go, anybody who can nail all that down for you, they're trying to sell you something. Yeah.

And what do you think is missing for most people who are lacking joy, connection, awareness? What is the thing that they're missing? That they're not tapping into, they're not seeing clearly?

I would look every one of them in the eyes. I would invite them to take a deep breath and then I would say to them, you, are enough. Hmm. You are enough exactly as you are. Accept that you are accepted. You've been loved the whole time. Belonging was never an issue.

Why is it so hard for people to believe that?

Yeah, good God, we're living in these systems. Let's take an example. How many billions of dollars was spent today on the internet to keep you clicking for advertisements to tell you that there's something that you need that if you had it, then you'd be better off. So what it does spatially, several billion dollars were spent today to, at a deep subtle level, reaffirm for you that you're here and there's a better you here. Like that's, Actually how it works in terms of the psyche, the heart, if you just.

Had this, got this bottle.

Every ancient tradition that actually helped people was, Here, now you're loved. You're okay. There's a world of wonder and awe and mystery right here. Right here.

Did you watch the social dilemma, the Netflix?

Oh my goodness, you are like the fifth person this week. I had read the, as a Jared Lanier, the 10 Reasons to Delete youe Social Media Accounts right now. I had read that book when it first came out because people had said like this, basically people were like one of the first people to invent the internet is now saying, wait a second. I shouldn't have done this. So then when someone said he's interviewed in that film, I was like oh good, yeah. Of course I'll watch it and I love that what his book is essentially now in his voice and these other voices are chilling, huh?

It's crazy. I watched it two, two, three nights ago. It's like all these ex product developers at the biggest internet marketing companies, social media companies were like, I wish I could go back and not do what we did.

Man, we made these machines.

They show the statistics of how like in 2009, kind of when like social media became a thing right around there, 2005-2009 when it started to kind of be more accessible, the suicide rates went up with Millennials. Like the suicide rates were kind of like steady for the last 80 years, I guess, like pretty normal, I mean, normal same amount every year. And then they spike and it continues and they're attributing it towards part of this system which has obviously tools that benefit us in a lot of ways. It's like with convenience. Okay, I can push a button and in 30 seconds my food shows up or a car picks me up and takes me somewhere. But with other things where it kind of...

It has an underbelly.

It tells us everything that we are not. We are not enough.

Exactly.

And it advertises to us why we're not enough over and over again.

And like the invention of fire and it can keep you warm and cook your food and it can kill you. Burn the whole forest down.

We... That's a good analogy.

We are back to, we invented these things that have a tremendous upside and an underbelly. And so, while things are way more sophisticated, the same ancient question is do we have the wisdom and maturity to handle our fire is still the question that has always been the question. So the idea that we graduated beyond that question, we're right back to can we handle the fire?

It's a more complicated fire.

It's a much more complicated insidious fire because it doesn't even announce itself as fire. No. But it's the same question that's always been there. Yeah.

What's your spiritual practice look like today? As I'm assuming when you were actively a pastor, had your church building things up, it was a different type of practice. I'm assuming, maybe I'm wrong. How does it look from there to where it is now?

Now it's all about the smallest details of life. Walk the dog in the morning. I walk the dog in the morning and remind myself of the mantra, everything you need for today you'll have when you need it. Probably not even ahead of time. So let's just remember that.

It'll come to you when you need it.

Yeah. The dog is pure presence. The dog is remember yesterday.

Love, joy.

Or the dog's not like, Dude, tomorrow is gonna rule. The dog can only be here. Mm-.

And it forgets after like you leave and 10 minutes later you come back it's like, oh he's here.

The dog is only here. That's, most of the time when I surf there are dolphins, like this morning and a dolphin's just a dolphin goes by like I'm a dolphin. You know what I mean? It's like just pure presence. It only knows how to be here and be a dolphin, which sounds so unbelievably simple and is probably the most profound thing ever. So all the details, when Kristen and I got married in the early 90s, in the 1900s, we were married, and you would go get registered. You'd go to a department store and tell them what you wanted and people would buy you this stuff. And there were two kinds of plates. There was everyday plates and then you also registered for Like fine plates.

Fancy.

So we just basically got two different kinds of white plates. And in the cupboard in the kitchen are the two kinds of plates. And I use the really nice ones, which are just another version of a white plate every day. Because today we're celebrating because it's today. We're not waiting for someday. And I tell that story that's completely trivial and ridiculous because in my experience it's the attention to the details which is where the sacred and the holy are found. My friend Dan Klein says, How you do anything is how you do everything. So, as opposed to there's a temple which is the like holy sacred space, and then there's regular space, and you leave regular space and go to some exalted other space. I think of it like the whole thing is a temple. So, this conversation is as holy and sacred. That's how it works now.

I think you told me a couple of years ago, like everything is church.

Yes.

Like we're churching right now.

Absolutely.

You don't need to go to church to have a spiritual practice.

It was always a a deep experience of what it means to be human. Yeah. Yeah, that was always, what else was the goal?

Right, right.

So, yeah, I'm much more aware, trying to think how to say this, becoming more and more aware of how there's always more going on in any moment and any interaction. So you're at a party and you meet this person and what do you do? What do you do? your head like, oh, that sounds boring, next person. Right. It's just learning to go, oh, I have no idea what that means. Tell me more. It's literally, you might be like one question away from now we're in. Look what this thing turned into.

It's interesting talking about meeting people or in a networking event or something. When I got into the business world, I remember thinking, I have no credibility. I'm just this young guy with no experience. I don't know how to make myself interesting or smart in this moment. And so what I just started doing was ask interesting questions and just didn't say anything. And people after every event, a couple hours of networking, I would just ask everyone questions and listen like so intently and tell me more, tell me more. Everyone's like, man, you're the most interesting person in this room. Isn't that funny? It's like not trying to be the smartest.

They bonded us when we met because I was like, oh, Oh, good. Somebody who's like me who's like, I'll tell you, I'll right now is, I'm gonna leave this event knowing more than you. Yeah. 'Cause I think all of you are way more interesting than you even think you are. I'm going to ask you all sorts of questions because I find humans endlessly fascinating.

Endlessly fascinating. What's the question you'll think you'll stop asking the universe?

Oh. Why?

You'll stop asking why.

It's just not as interesting anymore.

Really?

Yeah. Why is it set up this way? Why do these things happen? Why do these... Have you ever gotten an answer and you're like, oh, okay, good. And even all the questions of horrible things and suffering and tragedy, why?

Like, why did this bad thing happen? Why coronavirus? Why do people die this way?

Why do you... Yeah, I don't know.

So you stop asking that.

It's a world. It's free to be a world. What else would happen? I mean, this isn't cold and calculating, this is heartfelt. How else would a world work?

Where everything is perfect all the time?

Like had padding, like everything had soft cotton padding on it. You know what I mean? There were no cliffs, so there was no altitude, so there was no water, like you wouldn't, It's a world. So, I think there's a number of those sorts of questions.

When did you stop asking why?

As I began to realize the moments in life, the real joy, the moments when you were caught up in something, You left behind a whole world of duality, right, wrong, winning, losing. The moments of love, the moments when you were caught up in a conversation, an event, some transcendent anything, are the moments Lewis was no longer looking at his watch, was no longer evaluating even meaning itself. Think about how the moments that have been moments you would look back on and say, that's that's what it's all about. Even the idea in the moment you weren't going, well, this is meaningful as opposed to not meaningful. Or, well, this is significant. You left even behind those categories because you were just there. Yeah. You were just experiencing something that exists even beyond all the standard categories that is It's this or it's this, it's this or it's this.

When I look back on parts of my journey to the struggle, the challenge, the beginning stage, the idea stage of something, I look back and I'm like, gosh, that's really where the juice was.

Yes.

Not when I had it all figured out or when the thing was done, that's where a lot of juice was. And then as I look at, and so was every feedback moment or failure, so was every lesson, so was every moment in between the end result. And so was the end result of bringing something full circle and be like, wow, isn't this cool? Look what I can create from an idea.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's all of it.

Yeah, so your consciousness and awareness of this unfolding of Lewisness.

Yes.

And your being in it, but also witnessing to it with wonder and awe.

Exactly.

Is the game. That's the thing.

That's it.

That's the thing.

It's not trying to achieve something, it's enjoying the moment and saying, oh, let's see what happens in this process.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the yogi tradition, the most enlightened and awakened ones, they are the ones always winking and smiling. All the wise ones are always smiling, 'cause it's like, blessed is the one who's in on the joke. They always talk about they stick around simply to enjoy the liberation of others.

It's funny you say that, 'cause I saw Dalai Lama speak one time. You probably got him on speed dial, but I saw him speak one time, and the first thing he did, he comes up, he's like this old jolly man, right? half speaks English, and he comes up and sits down, he goes, oh, I just went to the bathroom and something like this, and I just farted. He said something that you would never expect the Dalai Lama to say, and I hear that he does that all the time. It's just to kind of be like, hey, this is a fun environment. It doesn't have to be this holy, sacred. I have all the answers. He's like, yeah, I have challenges too, and that's part of it.

I did a Q&A with him. Like, Bishop Tutu, him, me, like a couple of us in a row on a stage. And his audience. Anybody from the audience. And the guy behind him in the.

Gray suit, the tan suit.

Speaking, translating. And so people from the audience could.

Ask questions and then we would all take turns. Oh, my God, so much fun.

Did he do something similar where he's like, oh, I just farted. By the way, he has some fans. Like, people make like a Lewis Howes t-shirt and give it to you when.

You'Re out somewhere, whatever, I assume, or.

Bake you cookies in the shape of an L, whatever that is.

I'm telling you.

He has people tattooing his face on his body. People carving stuff out of wood that took them 27 years. No, it's the next level.

Does it say here is my moment to give you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Oh, unbelievable. But he gets asked a question and.

He goes, you,'re moderating.

No, there's a moderator and then there's like a couple of us on the stage doing this thing. He gets asked a question and he goes, he takes four ever. Time disappears into the ether.

He's just waiting.

He consults with the guy in the khaki suit behind him. He was like, he does like a, and the whole arena is just waiting. And then he goes, I don't know. That's what he did. I never forget it. How old was I? 38. I remember in the moment, getting hit by a bolt of lightning. He just gave me the greatest gift. Like, you know what I mean? It was one of those, it was like a huge moment for me. Dalai Lama was just like, I don't know. And he didn't add any special sauce to it. He didn't add any disclaimer, no ironic, no like hyperlink to a website, you know what I mean?

I don't know, end of question.

Let it float. Just let it float there. How you think about that, what you're thinking about me, because I don't know. So going back to your question about the why, actually now that you're helping me process this, I just kept noticing that the why was important to a degree and then it didn't take you where you really want to go. that this experience that we're having here is ultimately an experience and why can easily keep you stuck in your head. But the mind is lovely. It's a wonderful servant but not the best master because it's a full-bodied experience that we're having here. So we're all this integrated essence that.

And it's out of body experience at the same time.

Your body is something happening within you. So I think that's why the why, I just kept noticing that helpful to a degree and then you just, you know what I mean?

You know what's funny? I'm probably too much of a curious child all the time. My mom, my mom about a year ago, She would do things that would frustrate me. I'd say, Mom.

Wait, as a kid or a year ago? No, now.

Like my whole life. And I'd be like, Mom, why did you do this? I'm like, Should I say something or should I think something or should I have a way of doing something? I'd be like, why did you do this? Or why did you do it that way? Or why didn't you do it this way? And she said to me something a year ago that makes me crack up. She still says it today. She says, I stopped answering why questions. And so I still try to like get at her and be like, why'd you do this? And she'll say, well, honey, I stopped answering why questions.

And it really, it's kind of brilliant.

It really frustrates me, but it is kind of brilliant at the same time because I'm like, she doesn't want to continue to try to go down a rabbit hole of finding an answer. And she's just like, this is where I'm at and this is, This is what I'm doing and taking or leaving me type of mentality. So I still try to get her though and say, well, why'd you do that, Bob? I stopped answering or answering why questions.

That is very, very funny. But.

I still wanna know why to so many things though.

Yeah, good. Oh yeah, I'm insanely curious. We don't have a problem with why questions. We have a problem with when why questions are the wrong questions. for the thing we're actually after.

Or it's so mysterious that we're not supposed to know the answer.

Yeah, no, the why is awesome. Unless your why isn't getting you, yeah. Unless you're, oh, this is something else. This is something else. There isn't some data that fixes this one. Yeah. There is something about this moment right here that is the answer.

What is the greatest truth that you've discovered? I love bringing you all these questions.

Joy.

Uh-huh.

But joy is not... Happy exists in a binary, happy-sad, positive-negative, pessimist-optimist, those are all binaries. Joy wraps its arms around the full spectrum of the human experience. Joy is Joy is when you see how fragile, temporary, fleeting this experience is. COVID, cancer, natural disasters, forest fires. Joy is when you come face to face with just how fleeting this experience is. and it heightens your gratitude and appreciation for what you do have right now. So that was the breakthrough for me, was coming to see that joy is we're here and we're in this moment. Yeah.

We made it here.

And it's all we got, so we should probably enjoy it.

For whatever reason when you're saying that right now, all I'm thinking about is the chaos, pain, cancel culture mentality that's happening right now where everyone is, I don't wanna say everyone, where it seems like what we witness online, it seems like there's a lot of people attacking and there's not a lot of space for, let me hear a different perspective. Even if I firmly disagree, don't believe in what they're saying, think it's harmful what they're saying, what's the spiritual approach to communicating and finding joy with someone you disagree with firmly?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, like how do we navigate this spiritually as opposed to you're canceled, you're bad, you're wrong. I don't agree so never speak to me. Yeah, shut down your accounts. Never, you know, how do we spiritually evolve to find joy and love in this space?

Yeah, because this I call it the undernet. It's the underbelly of the internet. It's actually collapsing in on itself because of a misunderstanding of the stewardship of energies. So each of us, we have these sacred energies. They get us up in the morning because we're here to take part in a new creation, in a better ordering of the world. So you ask people enough questions, you can get at some people are organizers, some people are healers, some people are here to speak up, some people are here to follow their curiosity, some people are scientists. They're here to help us with the facts, some people are here to organize our common life together as an act of public service. There are these core essences and impulses in each of us. if you do not exercise those energies and use them and give them expression for the greater good, then they're all bottled up within you. The exercise of your energies in the world will always involve obstacles, challenges. You'll have to move from the fantasy of what it could be to actually exercising those energies and doing something. And if you don't exercise them but you just spout off about how things should be, that's actually called fantasy. You're stuck in, you're sending Facebook links to people about how you'd run the world instead of going down to the town council and actually getting involved in something. And so what happened is millions of people aren't exercising these sacred energies to actually make a better world. There is this new super easy way with your thumbs that you can spout off and then live with the lie that you've actually done something. So at some level, each person just asks, do I want to be one more person throwing stones at other people who aren't in the game, actually. Or do I want to be somebody who dies to the fantasy and actually does something? So to me, if you start thinking about all of the energy that is being spent on the, which is why it's so nasty and so vitriolic, that's all energy. So one way to think about it would be, because I've noticed this with you, and this is something that you and I, I think, bond over is, you get angry, I get angry. I see things that get me like, but somewhere in there you realize that's going to consume me and not take me anywhere interesting. But if I build, I picture it like a converter. I just decided to build a converter somewhere in here. And all that anger, frustration, rage about how the world should be better and it's not, I'm going to convert into energy to actually do my part.

How do you personally, and that's not.

And by the way, I should say, that's not like some sort of arrogant, that's just because I know who I am and I'll just wreck. I'll be home looking at comments. I don't actually go on social media, so I kind of know what you're talking about, but kind of not. I think that's actually the great invitation in our world right now.

So if someone has a family member that is against their beliefs and is aggressively combative in whatever way, whether it's political or religious, whatever. Or they see someone online that is really against their beliefs, how should we emotionally approach those Moments, whether it's a family member, a friend, a colleague, a political figure we see that we're completely against for whatever reason. Should we be judging and saying why this is bad? Or is there a different approach, more spiritual, that could actually help better?

Right, right. I always just ask questions of exposure. How does filling your head with that help you do what you're here to do? So if you and this family member have had nine awkward Thanksgivings in a row, A, you realize you don't have to go to Thanksgiving. B, maybe you just say to Uncle Phil, Uncle Phil, I get that you have a little altar in your house to Tucker Carlson, that's nice, but like I get where you're coming from, but we can't keep having this conversation, okay? Because you can't take people where they don't want to go. So oftentimes it's just a straight up boundaries issue. How does this help you do what you're here to do, because we need 100 of you. Like, if you spent 43 of your energy today trying to flush out the toxins from these people, this group, this co-worker this, I remember, we could use 100 of your energies on something positive. It's probably. It's probably a rediscovery of your discovery of your own dignity. Like, you don't have to take that. Mm-. Um, if you want to go asking questions, if you want to go pursue your curiosity and, and try and understand how somebody could see the world that way, then frame it that way and then sit down with them and say, help me understand here, because I don't understand how you could post that, but then do it in that spirit, which is to help enlarge in and expand yourself. But if it's just like a passive, I'm just getting shot at. When I meet people who are like the work that I do and help people get unstuck in their work, And they're like, yeah, I just, I'm so, I got all these voices in my head, I got just shot at. I'm like, where? And they're like, well, the comments on Facebook.

Well, stop reading them.

Yeah, so I think part of it is just giving people the permission slip. Does that help you do what you're here to do? No, okay. Yeah. You don't have to do any of that. You can just make up your own rules.

Yeah, and how do you look at a judgment? Like judging other people that maybe you don't agree with or that are doing things you don't think are right or wrong, how should we frame judgment for ourselves? Is it a helpful thing to judge someone else? Is it not supporting our mission when we constantly look at someone and talk about them and how they're doing it the wrong way?

In the Greek language, there are three subtleties to the word judge. The word judge in the original Greek is the word krino, K-R-I-N-O. So there's crino like judge, like judicial, like a judge. So there's just a basic law function of judging. Then there's judging also, the second meaning of the word is decision. So it's just you, Lewis, think that isn't smart. That's not loaded with anything. That's just that person says that. I don't think that takes into account the facts. I think that's misguided, misinformed, ignorant. The third thing has a subtle spiritual energy attached to it and that is personal righteousness at the expense of someone else. That is judgment in pushing somebody down in order to make myself feel higher and raise myself up. So that is a distinction that can be incredibly helpful Is this... Okay, this feels... Maybe I call this judgment, but is this judgment simply like, yeah, we're always making decisions all the time. Do you like that color or that color? That's a judgment. Is this just a decision? Like, I would go with this, not this. I would vote for this person, not this person. Or is this...

I'm right, better, they're wrong.

Which takes you into Worthy, more loved. That takes us into the same old game of if I can just put them down, I can get at this ache. But if we go back to youo've Been Loved the whole time, Worth was never the game we were playing. Yeah, you've always been a son, a daughter of the divine. What else would you be?

Yeah.

You'Re good in your deepest being. The deepest truth about you is that you've always belonged. You've always mattered, of course. Yeah, that helps me. Yeah. So then that. That. No, this is not about me somehow better. This is. We disagree. I think you missed it. I think it's a fax mask. Yeah.

Yeah. You come from more of a neutral place of, like, here's the information. I think here's the information.

Yeah.

It's not you're a bad person or wrong.

Right, right. And that actually then feeling free to be like, no, I think you completely missed it. Actually often is the doorway into compassion. Oh, dear God, look at the world that person's in. It's a world of scarcity. It's a world of lack. Look at the system that they're a part of that trained them and educated them. It gave them a horrifying view of the world. No wonder they see, no wonder they're frightened. They were taught that anything involving caring for the earth is a hoax or a conspiracy. That's all they've ever heard. They've never heard any other perspective. At least at some level, you can find some sort of compassion. Yeah.

How do we communicate with those types of people that have different beliefs than us or aren't willing to see another side? If you're willing to at least like, let me step in your shoes and see where you're coming from. How do we come together?

Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. To me, the real art is, can I look far enough inside of you to find me? So political polarization. Polarization. is the inability to see myself in someone else. And so for many people, this is musculature that never got built up. So like when you're resentful, are you like peak Lewis rationality when you're filled with resentment?

Zero.

Exactly. So you think about, or you think about early, early stages of consciousness, like archaic level, when you don't know if you're going to be able to get enough food for the day.

Yeah, you're not thinking clearly.

Well, there's a different Lewis.

Yeah.

You're just like, ah, I'm just... Yeah, yeah, so part of polarization and the overcoming of polarization is learning to see, oh, of course, if you were told this and had only ever heard this, and every factory in your town got shut down, and no one seemed to care, and somebody came along and said, I'll take care of you, of course, you'd rather blow up a system. If a system completely failed you, of course you would want to blow up that system. I would. I don't have to agree, still hold on to judgment, and yet, oh God, this now is a much more interesting story. It's a much more human story than just those people.

But what I'm hearing you say is sometimes we're not going to be able to communicate with people to get them to see a different perspective.

This is the great mystery of human consciousness. Actually, it's really helpful for me. Jesus tells this story about different kinds of soil. He's telling his students, some soil is like really fertile. Some soil is rocky and the seed can't find any purchase. It's almost like Jesus is saying to his disciples, I'm gonna go talk to these people and teach them. I'm teaching them about love, generosity, non-violence. Basically these seeds I'm putting out, some of these seeds are going to take root and some aren't. But what I love is as if Jesus says to his disciples, I don't even really get how it works. Like the I don't even get why this person is going to be like, oh, thank God, that's the most illuminating thing ever. That changes the whole game. And this person is going to be like, I don't know. It sounds like fake news. So think about people you know that you grew up with in Ohio. Why are you here talking to me?

Right.

And people you went to high school with live 0.3 miles away from where they grew up. No, no, they're living at home in the basement. Right. No judgment, nothing but love. But why did you just want to get into a bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger world? And other people who came from identical setting are fine. Yeah. Or you get together with somebody from your past and they're still telling the same jokes. Like two minutes in, you're like, oh my God, they see the world exactly like they did when we were 21. It's the great, consciousness is the great mystery at the heart of the human experience. And it's the endless black box for science. And the moment somebody's like, well, consciousness is just your brain functioning certain ways. Yeah, but you were just aware enough to say that. So there's the you behind the you behind the you behind the you. And I think that's why certain people respond to this moment with almost like, don't tell me the facts, don't tell me, and other people are like, okay, tell me more.

What's-- yeah.

It's the great mystery. Mm-. It is truly.

What do you think is gonna happen after the next After all of this has happened, what do you think will be the next phase of our existence after this year or however long this year turns into?

In times of disruption, trauma and tragedy, you either dig in your heels and give your energies to reclaiming the thing that got lost and making it great again. and idealizing it as once great. Or you let the pain and disruption break you open and you find the seeds of imagination to build a new thing. And right now, it happened after 9/11. After 9/11, you could see, just go kill the people who did this and just raise the flag even higher. And you know what? Let's cover an NFL field with an entire flag. Let's have soldiers around, let's have F-14s fly overhead, just to make sure we know this game is happening in America. Let's just double down on we're the greatest ever. And then after 9/11, you also had people go, why do these people do not like us? Is this about oil? Is this about violence? Is this about who America is in the world? Let's ask better questions about what it means to be global citizens. So you're seeing it all over again. You are seeing an invitation, because the political is always personal. So the political is just the macro of the personal. So whenever someone's like, I'm not political, get out. Political is just all of us together. So all the stuff that happens as an individual, the political is just the larger amalgamation of that. So whenever you ever you wonder, why are all those people doing that? Just ask, why does one person respond that way? So I think, well, we're seeing it. As always, it's the same ancient invitation. You dig in your heels, you get smaller, you constrict, and you try to make this country more how it was supposed to be, which generally means everybody looked like us. Or you go, Hey, it's way more diverse. How awesome is that? And it's sticky, it's got all these challenges, so let's see what the next America looks like. You can see it at every level and it's always, always masquerades as an intellectual argument, but it's actually just a posture of the heart. Are you open or are you closed? Are you up for the new thing that we haven't seen yet or are you desperately trying to just get back to an earlier thing that made more sense? Disorientation Reorientation. Yeah. All this is so not new. You know what I mean? If you're like me and you've been giving your life to sort of trying to understand the larger patterns, this whole thing is nuts. I'm like everybody else. I wake up in the morning like, what the... On what planet do I have to wear a mask for two different things with these forest fires? This is all entirely new. And it's as ancient and predictable. It's a pattern. There's an upheaval. People have a choice.

There's seasons of this. It'll happen, and then it'll be more stable for a period of time. Something will happen.

Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah.

Just being okay with the uncomfortable.

And always looking for spirit is lurking. In all of it. Spirits lurking in all of it.

I'm gonna ask you a question you probably don't like answering.

I love it. This is the first question where you've added to the question. You've loaded the question.

I feel like any spiritual leader or spiritual advocate, religious advocate gets either asked this a lot or They don't like it. Maybe I'm wrong.

Now I'm really, now I'm like, let's do this question.

Is there a God? What is God? If there is, with the atheist, the Sam Harris atheists that I've had on and people of different religious backgrounds and I feel like people always want to know what this answer is. I'm just curious where you're at and what you're, what Is there a God? And what is God?

The question is, what is the nature of this experience we're having? And here's the problem with the God question. We are having this experience. Everybody you just mentioned, we all are here, we're conscious, we're aware, and we're having this experience. So the question has never been, is there a God or not? The question is, what is the nature of the experience we're having? And traditionally, God was the name for the depth and the ultimate source of this experience. So whenever people want to talk, the moment you've proved God, you've just denied that God, because that God exists in all the same categories as everything else. You know what I mean? So when the person comes in and says, I'm gonna prove there's a God, and this person goes, no, I'm gonna prove there's not a God. Well, those are just two dualities. This and then this is defined and a theist is a not theist. But if there's a source to this experience we're having, that source would have to be the source of the categories.

Of both of them.

Are you with me?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, so the very nature, those are called dualities, the very nature of this experience then, if there is a source to it, that source would transcend whatever categories you've come up with.

So there has to be a creator of the source.

Yes, a source of the source. And this is why people always get bungled up in it, is the one person sets out the believer to prove that God exists, but you've just proved a thing that if you can prove it, you've proved it over and against it not existing. So you just shot yourself in the foot. This person says, there is no God. What do they mean by that? But they're here having experience with the rest of us. So I would always say absolutely just not the God that's contained in the question that asked if there's a God. Is there a God? Yes, just not the one in that question.

Which, what is that one in that question?

So then I would say here's an example. Is the universe a cold dark place of lack or is it the universe a place of endless love and generativity?

Yes. To both.

Right, right, right. So something within you, the nature of this experience is vast and diverse and blows your hair back one minute and then crushes your heart in another. Those to me are the interesting questions. What is the nature? And the reason why I asked that is for Lewis Howes, in your experience, which story are you living? Like, which story when you line up with it lines you up with something bigger than yourself? Like, is it better to forgive everybody who's wronged you or is it a better way of life to hold on to all that bitterness? and let it eat you away. Those to me are actually the much better God questions. Is economically, which is the better story? Just get your piece, step on everybody you have to, and then stockpile, or there's enough for everybody. Let's arrange ourselves in a way that distributes it in a way that acknowledges the dignity of every person to have their basic needs met. And those aren't like cheesy cliche sort of those are like actually the questions. Those to me are actually the God questions. There's this ancient story about Moses wants to know God's name and God says, I am. From the book, I do a whole thing on I like I am. Is there a God? I am. Being itself. Less a noun and more a verb. Less does it exist and more, what is the nature of the thing that we all agree does exist? Less you stand over it and prove it and more something you're caught up again. I tell the story about when I was in seminary, this feeling that you can pin down the butterfly, and the moment you can pin down the butterfly so that it's perfectly still and you can study it is the exact moment the butterfly can't fly. So, the moment you can pin down the ultimate source, so you can just study it in all of its exact detail, is the moment you're not actually talking about source. And that's, It's interesting about God.

Yeah, I grew up in a religion. I think, you know, it's called Christian Science and in the religion the definition of God is love with a capital L. Just like up on the church was God is Love, capital L and God is life, truth, you know, love, mind, all capital letters. And it's, yeah. It's the energy of it. It's not like God is this thing.

Right.

It's in us.

Right, right, right, right. And what we've seen over especially past 100 years, the God who's somewhere else, the object somewhere else who may or may not intervene in this place from time to time, that God has died. A number of people talk about how God died in the Holocaust. Like 6 million people dying and whoever that super being is doesn't show up. Okay, So one of the things I think is a lot, I've noticed has helped for a lot of people is just say some gods die. I mean it worked for you for a while, but some gods die. It's okay.

Yeah, because it's hard.

That way of ordering things in your mind, that way of, doesn't work anymore. Okay, that god died.

Because it's hard for someone to ask the question, why did this happen to six million people if God up in the sky is supposed to be looking out for us? Yeah.

Whatever that framework is, if that was the framework, it can't sustain that event. So out with that framework. And for a lot of people, especially like your listeners who grew up in religious settings that taught them a way of the world and then that way no longer works, and they're like, what the hoo? It's completely normal and healthy to let an old understanding you're gonna be okay.

You're gonna be okay. Just like we've talked about this whole episode, something is always needing to die or leave. Yeah, that's okay. And we're always gonna be needing to creating something new within ourselves, within relationships, like structures need to die.

Yeah. We need to create something new as we evolve.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. In one of your talks you talked about the world is constantly like evolving and expanding. I remember the whiteboard where we started. We started, yeah. And everything is constantly growing. the universe is growing constantly, right?

Yeah.

And things need to die and things need to be created in order for it to grow.

Yes, that is how it works. Death and rebirth. There is a great theologian, Paul Tillich, who described God as the ground of our being. And there is a friend of mine, Rabbi Nachum, who defines God as living presence. It's the sense that you're here, that you're not alone, that there's something that binds us together.

Yeah.

That there's something sustaining us and inviting us into new futures. Yeah. Yeah.

I think, I don't know if it's the country Bhutan that practices thinking about their death five times a day, and they're supposed to be like some of the happiest people in the world. I think it's the country Bhutan.

Nice. Okay, sure.

Where they think about their death five times a day and they're supposedly the happiest people, the happiest country in the world. And I think when we embrace the fact that it's not the end of the world when something dies or my death, it's like we bring more presence to what you've been talking about that this is the only moment. Don't focus on the anxiety of my death tomorrow, 100 years from now, whatever it may be. Focus on this moment. I think bring me more joy and happiness.

Absolutely.

Which brings me closer to source, universe, God.

Absolutely. And you're going to see, I mean think about, like you see that footage, let's just pick some random Middle Eastern country, somebody dies, and you see that footage of everybody throwing themselves on the casket as it's led through the village, and they're mourning and wailing, and sort of sophisticated Westerners like, oh, it's so primitive, it's so sort of And then people go to a funeral here and everybody dresses up and sits perfectly still, apologizes for a tear during the eulogy, and you think, which one is the more primitive response to death? And that the naturalness of death. So our ancestors, what, 300 years ago, 400 years ago, birth happened your mom was like in the tent a thousand years ago. That tent, maybe the next room over, next tent over. And then when grandpa died, he laid down in the tent and stopped moving. So you and I, 500,000, 2,000 years ago, life and death, the comings and goings happened right here.

In front of us.

A completely natural part of this experience we're having. And now, They happen, I don't know, in a hospital with fluorescent lights somewhere. So no wonder people have difficult times with the death that always brings about a rebirth that's endlessly happening in our lives. We're cut off from this as a natural thing of life, which you're seeing people rediscover. Just the fact that we're talking about it now. We're rediscovering all this.

A couple final questions for you.

I love it.

Before I ask these questions, if you guys want, Better questions and better answers, make sure you check out this book right now. Everything is Spiritual. Who We Are and what We're Doing Here, which is a question a lot of people have. You're gonna be fascinated by this book. Make sure you check it out. Every piece of content that Rob Bell puts out, I try to dive into. And I feel like I'm a better human being when I dive into it. So make sure you check this out. Check out your podcast, social media. You are real Rob Bell. on both Instagram and Twitter, RobBell.com as well.

There we go.

If you want to be coached by Rob, he's doing something very special right now where he's bringing on small groups of people to really help them get unstuck in their stuckness. You can check out all this fascinating stuff that he's doing at RobBell.com and hopefully you'll be able to tour again in the future because if you've never seen him live, you need to see him live. special treat. It's a spiritual experience.

And I highly recommend it.

I know. That's where you shine.

I miss it so much.

It's your giftedness.

It's like walking the dog the other day. And I got tears in my eyes thinking about how much I love a room, a theater full of people, and we're all about to have an experience.

You're recreating your 19-year-old rock band. That is love to you.

We are who we are.

You're recreating it.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's the times that brought you the most joy, the memories and you create that now in a different version.

Yep.

In a re-engineered way.

I'll just own it. Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

It's exactly how it works.

So you guys make sure you check this book out. A question I have for you is, what's the question you wish more people asked you that they don't ask you?

That is really interesting to me because A couple of different people have asked that and I don't think about life like that. I would have said it. I'm much more interested in who this person is I'm with and who are they and what's it been like to be them and I just assume whoever I'm interacting with has some gift. For me, for us. So, it's funny every time I'm asked that question, like it's not how I see it. Like some, there's some thing that I just wish you... I'll just tell you otherwise, let's talk about you. Yeah.

Okay, I've asked you your three truths and your definition of greatness in previous interviews. So, if you guys want to hear that, make sure you go check out the previous interviews. We'll link them up and they're going to blow you away these interviews as well. So I'll ask you this question, which I don't know if I've asked you, and it's what's your definition of love?

Love, here's my definition. I'm in my kitchen. Kristen's there. This year we celebrated 26 years of marriage. Wow, congrats. She's like the best. It's like we're just getting started. We have three kids. One of them has their phone out and is playing songs on the speaker in the kitchen. One of them is showing us all something from TikTok. My daughter is wearing a bucket hat. She's 11. Saying something funny like, Bro. And the dog is there and there's food around and I'd rather be nowhere in the universe. So love is less an abstract concept or feeling and more something we're in. So like that'll be tonight. Probably a couple hours. Yeah, that's right now when you ask, right now in 2020 on this day when you ask me about love and there's a pandemic and there's massive social unrest for some very heartbreaking and good reasons. There's forest fires so you can't be outside because the water, the air quality, there's massive political polarization and upheaval. We don't know how long we're gonna be in our house under lockdown, but we'll be there together and they'll be playing some song and we'll be laughing and. All is not well, but all is well. There's so much pain and suffering in the world and we're here. We're alive and we're going through it together. Yeah. So there's nowhere I'd rather be. That's love for me right now.

That's a nice definition.

Yeah, it is. It really is.

Well, I always appreciate you, my man. I always appreciate your friendship, your wisdom. I'm grateful for how you show up.

So glad we know each other. Yeah, man.

It's a beautiful thing.

I love your questions.

Thank you, brother.

I appreciate it.

It's really meaningful. Make sure you guys get the book. Everything is spiritual. It's gonna be a game changer for you. Get it for a friend. Especially during this time, you're gonna need this right now. It's gonna be very helpful. Check out Rob's podcast as well and you'll be a better person by doing that.

So, Rob, thanks, man.

Appreciate it.

My pleasure.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I'm telling you, I did not want it to stop because Rob always shares incredible wisdom to help us make mysterious things less complicated in the world. We have so much going on in the world and our inner world has a lot going on as well. And I always want to simplify these things to make our lives just a little bit a little bit smoother, a little less chaotic in all of the chaos that's happening. And how do we truly find peace in chaos? And that's one of the reasons why I love having Rob on the podcast. If you haven't listened to our previous interviews, we'll have those in the show notes. Just go to lewishouse.com/1018. You'll see all the notes of the previous interviews which will blow your mind as well what we talked about in those. So make sure to check those out. But please share this with friend, someone you think that would be inspired to have more spiritual tools to guide them for inner peace, mastering grief, and understanding God and the universe and the world during these times. So share this link, lewishouse.com/1018 or just copy and paste the link wherever you're listening to this Apple Podcast, Spotify, places like that. And if you want to have inspirational messages sent to your phone from me every single week, then join my texting list. Just text the word podcast right now to 614-350-3960 and I'll send you inspirational and motivational messages every single week. And again, please tag Rob Bell over on social media when you're sharing this out. Tag myself as well so we can stay connected over there. And I can thank you for listening and connecting to this episode. And I want to leave you with this quote from a French novelist. NIS Neen who said the possession of knowledge does not kill the sense of wonder and mystery. There was always more mystery. As you know, I am a very curious person. With over a thousand episodes, I'm always asking questions. And even when I believe I've got the answers to one question, there always seems to be a few more questions behind that. but it's okay. As long as we're on the journey to finding peace with all the mystery and doing our best every single day, that's all we can really ask for. And I want to remind you that you have not been reminded lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And you know what time it is? It's time to go out there and do something great.