1033 Unlock Self-Confidence, Heal Trauma & Make Money as an Artist w/Pulitzer Prize Winner Jericho Brown

If you can notice and make a habit of noticing the abundance of things in the world, you will begin to see the abundance of money in your bank account. If you can begin to believe that there is more than enough of everything that we need, then it will be there for you.

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Leonardo da Vinci once said, Painting is poetry that is seen rather than felt. And poetry is painting that is felt rather than seen. And author Jennifer Brown wrote, Just like there's always time for pain, there's always time for healing. I'm so excited about this conversation. Pulitzer Prize winning poet Jericho Brown has won countless awards for his poetry and writing including the American Book Award for his first book, Please, the Ansfeld Wolf Book Award for his second book, the New Testament, which was also named one of the best of the year by Library Journal, Cold Front, and the Academy of American Poets. He has also won the 2020 Pulitzer Prize for his most recent book, the Tradition, which was a finalist for the 2009 2019 National Book Award. His poems have appeared in the New York Times and many other major media outlets. He is the professor of creative writing and the director of the creative writing program at Emory University in Atlanta. And I had such an incredible time getting to know Jericho picking his brain about the complexities of life, the nuances of pain and healing, and the secrets to vulnerability and success as an artist. And in this episode, we discuss Jericho's experience with growing up queer, why feelings of shame affect us so much and how we can overcome them. Ways to combat pain and how to heal trauma. Why Jericho changed his name and how it affected his identity. His rocky relationship with religion and what that's taught him. The two keys to unlocking self-confidence and Jericho's helpful tips for how to make money as a Creator or an artist. I am very, very excited. It was such an incredible conversation. I cannot wait for you to soak in the wisdom of Jericho. Make sure to share this with someone that would be inspired to hear this, someone you know in your life, someone close to you that would enjoy this. Just share them the link lewishouse.com/1033 or copy and paste this link wherever you're listening to podcasts right now. And also click that subscribe button over on Apple Podcasts so you can stay up to date and notified of all the great information and episodes we have in the future. And in just a moment, the one and only Jericho Brown. Are you ready to level up your business? Intuit QuickBooks has got your back. Forget stressing over unpaid invoicing or tracking expenses, QuickBooks takes care of all that so you can focus on growing. Let QuickBooks be your all-in-one tool to help with the day-to-day tasks so you can stay focused on the big picture. Manage and grow your business all in one place. Intuit QuickBooks, your way to money.

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Limited time only. Terms and conditions apply. Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments Inc., licensed as a money transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services. the School of Greatness is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. As Amica says, Empathy is our best policy. That's why they'll go above and beyond to tailor your insurance coverage to best fit your needs. Whether you're on the road, at home, or traveling along life's journey, their friendly and knowledgeable representatives will work with you to ensure you have the right coverage in place. Amica will provide you with peace of mind. Go to amica.com and get a quote today. Fuel your greatness with Wonderful Pistachios no Shells. Wonderful Pistachios is a great source of protein with zero guilt. Each one ounce serving has six grams of protein, giving you over 10% of your daily value. Pistachios are known for their protein power, fiber, and better for you unsaturated fats for a combination that may help keep you feeling fuller longer. And now there's a new way to snack strong with unsalted no Shells. Holding the salt not the flavor for a snack that packs a protein punch. Visit wonderfulpistachios.com to learn more. Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatest Podcast. Very excited about our guest, Jericho Brown is in the house. Pulitzer Prize winning poet. Good to be here and I'm glad you're here, my man.

Hey, thanks so much for having me, Louis. I really appreciate you having me.

Of course. I don't know what it takes to be a Pulitzer Prize winning anything, but I can imagine it's had to be an amazing feeling to know that something you've been committed to for a long part of your life is acknowledged in that circle. How did that feel originally when your body of work was acknowledged in that way?

It feels wonderful to be acknowledged for doing what you love to do. It's good to have some recognition of how much you've been borrowing. You know, like most of us get our real work done when nobody's looking.

Right.

Right now, to see you do the work that you're doing, people think that it is, you know, you show up and you just have a million dollar smile and a good looking nose, and it works out. You know, you ask a few questions and people don't realize the kind of networking, the kind of research, the kind of preparation that goes into a moment. And so it's always been important for me to tell people that the Pulitzer Prize is indeed the recognition, but the poem itself, the poems, the book, they are the achievement. The achievement is the work and getting the work done and getting in the groove of doing the work. As a matter of fact, I've always believed that the worst part of writing a poem is when you finish a poem because it's over.

It's done.

It's done. The best part of writing a poem is that moment right before you finish the poem. And then when it's over, there's a little bit of a grief because that little love affair that you had with those few words is done. And now it's time to move on, hopefully, to another love affair, to another poem.

Interesting. It's like you're birthing something. And then it leaves the womb as you put the final punctuation point and you do your final editing. And you're almost like, can I edit any more? Yeah, but at some point you got to finish it and let it fly, I guess.

Yeah, you got to let it go and you have to be in love with the process enough not to look forward to recognition as much as you look forward to the process of making the thing you love to make.

Isn't it interesting? Every artist, actor, creator that I talk to who has found fulfillment inside, they focus on the process, not the award shows, not the red carpets, not the Pulitzer Prize moments, the acknowledgment, they focus on the craft. And I think whenever we focus on the accomplishment and the praise that I'll gain when I create this, that's when we've kind of lost.

Yeah. That's why it's so important that you find yourself in the midst of doing something you are indeed passionate about doing. You have to do what you love, and you have to go where your love leads you. And you can't spend your time doing things that you think you're supposed to love. I mean, right now, we're always concerned lately in particular about doctors with bad bedside manner, but that's because so many people who want to be medical doctors are doing it not because they love medicines or the human body. They are doing it because they heard, oh, if you're a doctor, you'll make a lot of money. You'll gain some respect in the community. You have to do What you feel like getting up early to do or what you feel like staying up late to do.

What's the greatest insecurity you needed to overcome in order to become who you are today?

Oh, well, there are like 700,000. I never ranked them to see which one was the greatest. I think the hardest thing was growing up and, you know, it's not special because, you know, it's probably one third of us growing up queer. in the world. It's only recently, I mean by recently I mean in the later part of my life when I was really writing and I felt like I was writing well, that I realized everything that I was afraid that other people were afraid of was what I would have to embrace about myself. So if what people are afraid of when they encounter queer people is that the men are feminine, I had to figure out what was feminine about me and not hate it because I already had the world to do that for me. I had to figure out what was feminine about. I had to figure out what was feminine about me and pull it closer to myself and enjoy it and to notice it when it comes up and to decide that is completely Jericho. Nobody does that. Nobody does that feminine moment the way Jericho does it. You know, and I feel the same way about making love, you know, why would anybody feel shame about love? And when I was able to begin to express that kind of a thing in my work, then I was also able to pull that thing closer to me and love it more. And the more you can love what you imagine people hating about you, the more you can sort of embrace that and think of it as a part of your God-given gifts. The more you can think about it that way, the more it becomes who you are and the reason why people want to be around you. And it becomes easier then to discern who's a friend and who's not a friend. So I think I was insecure or hiding. I think that was the biggest insecurity of my life because there was a long period of time where I was hiding, in hiding about that. And now I'm not in hiding about it. Now I'm completely grateful for it and I wouldn't have wanted to be born any other way. Wow. I wouldn't have these poems, you know? I wouldn't have my, I mean, the poems that won the Pulitzer Prize are a bunch of queer poems. Whether or not people see that, that's true. I mean, there's a lot in this book. This is a book about the natural world, about the way we treat our planet, the way we treat the earth. This is a book about police violence, about the tradition of an institution that has been undergoing reform. The oldest person watching this program has their entire life heard the phrase police reform. So one of the things my book is interrogating is how long you have to hear the word reform before you figure out the thing doesn't work. So that's the kind of thing that the book does. And one of the things that the book is, is a very queer book full of love poems. And so everything I've gotten in this world that I'm proud of, these recognitions and these achievements have indeed had to do with the fact of me loving my entire self.

What do we say to ourselves when we are shameful of the things about us, the things that people say they don't like about us, which is actually who we are? What are we saying when we are shameful of that thing?

When we're shameful of that thing, we're saying that they're right. And depending on what that thing is, we might even be saying we shouldn't be alive.

Ooh.

And that becomes really problematic if you have these ideas from the world going into your mind and you begin to believe them, right? So, for instance, if you're a woman and you believe what men often think about women, you're in a lot of trouble. You have to figure out what you believe about yourself.

Right.

And you have to love it. And that's what I mean. You know, if I were to believe what half of everybody thinks about gay folks, if I were to believe what half of everybody thinks about black folk, it is not likely that I would win a Pulitzer Prize. If you look at the list of people who have won the Pulitzer Prize, most of them are from the Northeast. I'm from Louisiana. Do you know what I'm saying? But I didn't believe that. I wrote poems anyway. So you just have to believe that you're supposed to be here first. Because the opposite, when you accept some shameful idea of yourself, then you are accepting that you shouldn't exist. And that's, you know, that for some of us, that means literal suicide.

Yeah. Yeah. Or it turns into mental health issues and depression, anxiety, overwhelm, stress, constantly questioning why I'm here creating addictive personalities, having a piece of substances over and over to numb the shame.

Exactly. Very good.

When did you set yourself free mentally and emotionally of all shames that you've ever had?

Well, who knows? I'm sure that they still creep in and creep up. It's just that I can identify them better.

Sure, sure.

I would say that the smartest thing I ever did was give up a job. I used to be the speechwriter for the mayor of New Orleans. When my mayor went out of office, there was a new mayor that came in. and I thought, sure, I was out of a job and I'd have to figure out what to do. And at the same time that the new mayor came in, I got accepted to a PhD program for poetry, and I wasn't sure if I was going to go, but I knew that's where my heart was. This is what's interesting about us, in spite of knowing where our heart is, we still don't know if that's what we're going to do. Isn't that strange? Like, I know what I want to do, but I don't know if I'm going to do it. You know what I mean? That's exactly where I was at that time in my life. And how old were you this time? 26. Yeah, I was 26, 26 years old. So last year.

So you're still 29, right? It's your 29th birthday.

Right, right. So I was 26 years old and I had these two offers on the table 'cause the new mayor said I could keep my job as speechwriter. And there was this whole idea of the way the world worked. that I knew I could go with if I was a speechwriter for the mayor. I could see my life in front of me, right? I could even see the wedding, you know, not just my career, but everything about my life was sort of could be mapped out by the fact of that job, definitely my finances. And then there was this other world of poetry.

The unknown world.

That was telling me directly, very directly, it was not going to pay me any money.

Zero. You're gonna be paying to get into it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Everybody who does anything in the arts is always overcoming this, what I believe to be a myth, that you're not going to be able to survive. And so I made a decision that I had survived so much in my life by the time I was 26, I was like, you know, I know what it's like to be poor. I know what it's like to be in pain. I'm pretty good at that. You know, I have been poor and in pain and laughed while that was happening. So I made the decision to take the leap. And I think that was the beginning of getting rid of all of the shame. Me taking that step for myself was me. It was also the time I moved, I never lived outside of Louisiana. I left New Orleans for Houston, Texas, which at that time seemed like a super big city to me. I remember driving in Houston and looking at all the lanes on the interstate thinking, wow, why so many lanes so many? and I remember thinking of it as an opportunity to completely reinvent myself. That summer before I went off to school, I changed my name to Jericho Brown, which is the name you know me by. And I started Nelson Nelson Demille.

Nelson Demille.

Nelson Demille, the third. Yes, you know, I was a third. So it was real trouble for me to be able to change my name. So I changed my name to Jericho, and I decided to become Jericho.

Why change your name?

Because I wanted a 100% reinvention of self. I wanted a 100% transformation. I didn't know that was what I wanted. I actually dreamed the name. And in the dream, when I woke up, I had this sense. I got the word Jericho in the dream. And then I met somebody when I woke up out of my dream that same night, I met somebody and I told them, they asked me my name, and I told them my name was Jericho. And after I told them my name was Jericho, they said, oh, so you're straightly shut up. And I said, what? And he said, oh, the name Jericho. It literally translates, straightly shut up. It loosely translates defense. Another word is good smelling that it, you know, so they were giving me all of these ways you could translate the word Jericho. And I was like, what are the chances of me having this dream, waking up and meeting a person who tells me all these things? And so that was the beginning of me changing my name and really intuitively following what was given to me, which is how I try to live my life now.

What's the difference between changing your name and a transformation of identity and having an alter ego?

Yeah, I think the difference for me is that changing my name and the change of identity came with real life goals of what I wanted to do and what I wanted to be and things I knew about myself. So for instance, I knew I had some talent as a writer. I knew I could write. Was I a great writer? No. Was I at that time some who could have been a Pulitzer Prize winning poet? Hell no. Do you understand what I mean? But one of the things that I knew I could do is become that. I could get better as a writer. Another thing that we just talked about was the fact of queerness, right? I understood, I knew there was nothing wrong with me, but I needed to go away and be by myself, and I needed to go figure out why I was acting like there was something wrong with me in spite of the fact that I knew better. so that was another thing, that was another goal of mine, sort of accepting that about myself and being able to fall in love with the people I wanted to be able to fall in love with without any shame so that I could be there for them and they could be there for me whole. So there were a lot of little goals that I had about how I would carry myself, about how I would talk to people, about being on shows like this one, about really embracing the belief in myself as a creator of my own life. and what that would mean. So that's the kind of thing that I think makes it different.

It's almost like you had a psychological death of a previous way of being and stepped into a new way of being, a new identity of who you want to become.

Yeah, well, I'll say, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'll say I knew that I needed to figure things out and I just needed a second, I mean a literal second. to figure out that there were things I wanted my life to look like. And therefore, in order to make them look like that, I would have to practice them. And today, would I change my name?

No.

But at the time, when I was a 25, 26 year old kid, I really felt like I needed to do that in order to do this other thing. And that other thing is creating disciplines, creating habits, creating practice around what I love. And when I say that, I'm not just talking about a career. I'm not talking about being a writer.

I'm talking about life.

Yeah, I'm talking about laughter. I'm talking about quite literally in this time in particular, during this pandemic and being shut in, in the ways that we have been shut in and not as active as I usually am, it has been very important to me to laugh. I'm not out being gregarious with my friends. And so laughter is something that I've noticed I've got to go find. I've got to go figure out how I'm going to do it. And so I have to be as purposeful about making sure I laugh every day. And I have to put a laughter plan together. And for me, it's funny. You know, like I could just watch Golden Girls every night before I go to sleep and I'm fine, you know? And then I've done it. Then I've made sure. I'm probably laughing throughout the day, but then I've made sure that it's happened. And I know I did that for Jericho. You know, I know I set aside time just for Jericho to laugh.

I'm curious about the thing you had to heal the most. You know, because I don't think you can truly laugh until you start to heal. Like it's kind of masked in something if you're laughing but you haven't truly healed the past. Were you always laughing or was it not until you started to truly accept who you fully were? Embrace the things that people hated about you, that you loved about you. and heal certain traumatic things where you're able to very fully laugh all the time. Women's health affects more than women. In fact, research from the World Economic Forum and McKinsey suggests that closing the women's health gap could boost the global economy by $1 trillion annually by 2040. Join Dr. Jen Ashton and her guests as they examine the women's health gap through specific topics like maternal health, menopause, heart disease and more. Listen to the new season of the Visibility Gap, a podcast presented by Cigna healthcare. When I got injured playing football, everything in my life changed. My dream disappeared overnight. I was broke, crashing on my sister's couch, stuck feeling sorry for myself. But then I made a choice. Stay stuck in that pain or adapt a no bull mindset and build something new. And that choice changed my life. The no bull mentality is what no bull is all about. No bull is the Footwear brand for those committed to getting stronger physically, mentally and emotionally. Known for their award-winning shoes, Nobull continues to raise the bar with the All Day Ripstop. I am a huge fan of these. Engineered for versatility, the All Day Ripstop is designed to perform from early workouts to late nights and everything in between. With a soft foam midsole for comfort, targeted breathability, and a Ripstop upper for extreme durability, they keep me moving comfortably all day long. I am a huge fan of these shoes. No shortcuts, no excuses, just commitment. That's the no Bull mindset. Exclusively for our listeners, no Bull is offering 30% off your order. Visit nobullproject.com/greatness for 30% off your entire order. That's nobullproject.com/greatness for 30% off. Haven't you heard? The newest fashion trend is finding clothes that feel good and last. and that's where Quint's comes in. Their lightweight layers and high quality staples will become your new everyday essentials. Quint's has all the things you actually want to wear, like organic cotton silk polos, European linen beach shorts, and pants that work for everything from backyard hangs to nice dinners. Everything I have from Quint's is such good quality and it's so comfortable. And the best part, everything with Quint's is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury pieces without the crazy markups. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. Stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from Quince. Go to quince.com/Lewis for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com/Lewis to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com/Lewis.

Yeah, I think I laugh more fully and more loudly now than I ever have in my life. And the older I get, the more I laugh. When I was a kid growing up, I didn't have the best relationship with my dad. and I think it was really difficult for him because he had this idea of how everything would be and go.

And.

Any derivation from that idea would send him into these rages, you know?

Really? Yeah.

I mean, really horrible rages. He was very violent, but he also loved us. You know, my dad, if I got up at church to give an Easter speech, the first person in tears is my dad. You know what I mean? But part of the reason why he's in tears also is he's been like practicing that Easter speech with me, driving me crazy. Do you know what I'm saying? So I think that was one of the things that was most difficult for me because I had to figure out as an adult how I was going to shut off that influence of what life had to be like, because my father, for instance, didn't understand that there were careers for people other than being a doctor or a lawyer. My father, who cut people's lawns for a living, you know, he just didn't want me cutting people's lawns for a living. And he knew that at his church, if you say my son is a doctor, if you say my son is a lawyer, people give you a look like you did good. You know what I mean? So when I was telling my parents I wanted to be a poet, they were, of course, like, you know, that is not the look from the church people that we want to get from the church people. so I think understanding that I had to turn that off and that my journey would be mine, it wouldn't be a cookie cutter journey, it wouldn't be a journey that it was already set up by my dad or by anybody else, and that I would have to do things one at a time, step by step, just because they came to me for me to do them. But that was a, you know, that again was a leap. You know, you have to have a certain amount of a spirit of rebellion in order to overcome anything. And you can't have that spirit of rebellion if you're not capable of honoring your sadness. So, you know, there was some sadness around my dad. There was some sadness around queerness. You heard another interview in which I mentioned the fact that I was raped. And that rape still does conjure some sadness for me. But the way I honor that sadness is my survival. The way I honor that sadness is I look back at these things and say, well, look at you still here, Jericho Brown. And my ability to say that to myself means that I am here in spite of that and therefore better than those occurrences, those situations, those moments, those moments of trauma. So I would specifically, to be more specific, which I know is what you want, Louis, I would specifically say there were times in my life where I would simply not talk to my parents. And during those times, I would have to look forward to a time when we would talk. And I would have to understand, you know, I never started those times when we didn't talk, but when we didn't talk, I was like, thank God. I was so glad they're not talking to me. Now I can prove them right, you know, I mean, you know, or prove them wrong, actually, you know what I mean? Like, in a way, prove that I wasn't going to do what they wanted me to do, but prove them wrong and that I was going to be okay. You know, my mom and dad, my mom never believed that it would be possible for me to be happy this life. And I mean, there's this much of me that's glad she never believed it because I don't know that I would be so happy if I hadn't been searching for ways to do so in spite of my mother and to spite My mother. So I had to do this. I had to do this for me. And I had to have somewhat of a rebellious spirit in order to do it. Yeah.

So much I want to unpack here. You know, we're very similar in a lot of ways with even with our differences. But I was sexually abused when I was five. And I remember it being emotionally crippling for 25 years until I started to address it, until I started to accept it, until I started to let go, forgive, and find peace with it because it was something that created a lot of rage and anger inside of me when I was felt like I was under attack, whether it be a false sense of under attackness or emotional attack or whatever it may be. And I had an outlet. I had football and I had sports to let myself be expressed in a controlled anger way, essentially like a structured way. and I remember when I stopped playing sports, it was like, oh, I gotta learn how to deal with this now. I gotta really learn how to deal with this pain. How long did it take for you to learn how to deal with the sexual abuse, the rape? And what was that process of healing like for you?

It's what that moment is something that I still walk around with because of having HIV. I would not have otherwise had HIV. And so knowing that has been what has drawn me to other people and to community. And I think the distance between what we think of as healing for me, the distance between the wound of the rape and the healing that I feel now has to do with uniting myself with other people who have experiences similar to mine, being there for them and allowing them to be there for me. You know, that began with my first doctor's visit, Gary Brewerton in Houston, Texas, who helped me understand that I wasn't going to die because, of course, at that time, I thought, sure, this meant I was going to die.

How old were you then?

I must have been 27, 28 years old.

What was that like when you learned out that you had the virus?

I always had, at the time I was living and I had moved to Houston, Texas, and I had this sense of urgency. And so it ramped the sense of urgency up times 100. I felt more than ever like getting my first book done. I felt like, because, you know, that's what I wanted to do. I didn't, interestingly enough, feel like quitting. I didn't suddenly feel like traveling the world. I didn't feel that kind of timer on my life. As a matter of fact, I felt like, oh, I need to pay closer attention to what's going on in my classes. Do you know what I mean? And I need to feel-- and I also-- I remember very distinctly feeling like having a better understanding of what was wasting my time and what wasn't. And I didn't want to do what was wasting my time. And then when I found out I wasn't going to die, but that I would be on medication for the rest of my life, I still had that. you know, because of that experience, I still had that, that sense of urgency because I was like, I felt, at first I felt a great deal of shame. I felt branded. Like not only has this thing happened, but now there's evidence that this thing has happened to me. Right. Not necessarily even evidence to the world, but even evidence to me every night that I take it.

It's a reminder every day for the rest of your life.

Exactly. Exactly.

That is tough.

So, And this is why we have to seek community and we have to seek those who are honest. It's why nothing can happen in a bubble. If I would have handled that by myself and not seen other people, gotten other help, joined organizations where people were talking about this thing. I mean, one example, I mean, not even an organization that's necessarily gay or has anything to do with HIV, but I remember the first time I went to the CAVACANON workshop, a workshop that was that was built for Black poets in the mid to late 90s. The first time I went there being around all of these queer people who were very comfortable talking about their very queer lives in front of straight people. I had never seen that happen before. I didn't know that existed.

In the 90s, that wasn't really- yeah.

It wasn't going on. And then in the early 2000s, by the time I got there, that was completely instituted that the community was diverse in the way that it was. And that is what opened me up to possibility. being around people and being in real community with people. What's real community with people? Real community is honesty with a group of people or with one other person that lets them know they're in a position where they can help take care of you and lets you know that you're in a position where you can help taking take care of them. It is not codependence. Do you know what I'm saying? It's an opportunity to do that. So that's what I, I mean, that's what I believe I got from that experience.

But how did you learn to forgive?

I finished my book and I had something in my hand that said what I got through and having that book, my first book is called Please, it came out in 2008. And I remember holding on to it when it got delivered by that time I was teaching at my first full-time teaching. I was a professor at the University of San Diego. and the books got delivered to my office. And the administrative assistant at the time, her name's Esther Dahl, she had unpacked the books and just laid them out all over my office. So when I opened my office door, there were all of these books.

Wow, that's cool.

And I remember thinking, finally, I did the thing I meant to do in spite of these bumps along the road. And so me being able to forgive had to do with to the fact that I survived and saw my survival made flesh in a book that I could hold in my hand. And I could I could sort of prove to myself, oh, you did indeed survive. And here's proof of it. So yeah, I mean, I think that's the answer.

Wow. Do you feel like you've fully forgiven that experience, that person, or is it still something you struggle with? A little today, every now and then.

I think I wouldn't try to fight him. And I think that's a good sign for me.

I wouldn't try to fight him. Okay, so- I wouldn't.

I mean, I mean, that's a really good sign for me. I used to be a person who.

Would want to kill someone, beat them up.

Yeah, I mean, I wanted- this has changed for me. One of the things about science of mind and Ernest Holmes and the church I go to here, the Spiritual Living Center of Atlanta, Even when I moved to Atlanta, I would still likely, I mean, I had a, you know, this supposedly really professional job, and I was likely to get in a bar fight. That could have happened. I feel like because that isn't there anymore, then I've made headway.

Wow. What were the things that you learned growing up through religion and faith that still are true to you today? The beliefs still hold true. What is no longer true to you? and what's something new you've discovered today?

Yeah, one of the things that I believed in and that I believe now, I actually believe it better now. I said it, but I didn't really believe it. We all said that God is everywhere and everybody seems, everybody of every faith seems to believe that God is everywhere. The part that I kept missing was that if God is indeed everywhere, God is in me. God is in every step I take. God emanates through me, is made expressed through me, is expressed, is made manifest through me. And I think one of the things that I believe now better and that I better understand is that God cannot be a God of condemnation if God is with me. God is not sitting around looking for ways to punish me. God did not bifurcate himself into a devil who who is laying in wait to destroy every move I make. I mean, I really do enough to thwart myself. So I don't need the help of a so-called Satan. You know what I'm saying? I do, I mean, I do, I mean, you know, I will, if we put a bag of Doritos anywhere in this house, it's gone.

It's gone.

Yeah. I mean, the people who eat like three Doritos out of a bag, I.

Don'T know how they do it.

What are those people? So there are no Doritos in the house. And that's not about Satan, that's about Jericho Brown. Do you know what I mean? So one of the things that I believe that I did not understand is that if God is a creator, and if God is everywhere, then God is in me, and that means I have the power to create. And I didn't understand that. I thought that we were, and I think a lot of people still think that we're living this life where you sort of have to take it as it comes, as opposed to living it intentionally, making a decision when you get up in the morning, what the day is going to be like, how it's going to go, where you're going to have your good time, where you're going to get your work done. You can make those decisions. And if you make that decision the night before, you will find more and more that the next day looks exactly like the decision you made the night before.

Isn't that interesting that when we visualize and set an intention and and manifest in the mind what we want to create in the next day, the next month, the next years, and we act on it. It starts to unfold in that vision. What was the religion you grew up in and where, what's your religious practice now? You said science of the mind.

Oh, yeah. Sorry. National Baptist Convention. We went to a missionary Baptist Church, a black church, which is one of the best things that could ever happen to me, because I I figured music out and I loved it so much. Part of the reason I'm a poet is because of the way the people spoke in that church, the elevated, dignified language with which Black people would communicate to one another the way that my pastor, the Reverend Harry Blake, would speak from his pulpit and would give the sermon. A lot of that has to do with the way I think about language today and the way language operates in my poems today. so that's another thing that I learned that I still believe in and that I love, and also the ways in which people were there for one another and cared for one another in that church. That today is different. I still have that care, but I don't have that care with the same sort of rule book understanding of the Bible as this literal text that I should be afraid of. You know, one of the reasons why I don't have that rule book understanding is because in the United States in particular, we like to change the rules. You know, for instance, for instance, you know, every time homosexuality is mentioned in the Bible, it's mentioned with a list of other things. But somehow or another in this Christian world that we live now in the United States in particular, all of those other things are fine. You know, cutting your hair, wearing, having a tattoo, eating shrimp, all of that is cool. But making love, me making love to another guy is not. Me falling in love with another guy is not. So that's one of the ways that I knew that reading of the Bible that was going on in that church was not necessarily the right reading. It was a reading that was convenient to support people's prejudices, as opposed to creating a reading that would get them to interrogate their prejudices. Where I worship now is Spiritual Living Center of Atlanta. There are chain of churches all over the nation. And these spiritual living centers all over the country have at the core of their belief, at the core of our belief is the fact that God is every, there's one God and God is everywhere. How is that possible? The oneness of all, you know, so everything is, there's only one. You and I are one. And there is nothing between us. other than the fact of God, other than the fact of beauty, of love, of health. And so I believe that. And I also believe in affirmation and affirmative prayer. I believe that if there's a lack in my world, then it's my job to see it there until it exists, you know, to visualize it until it exists. And the other thing I believe is that I've learned most recently in my most recent religious practice is that I have everything I need often we go looking, I would find myself looking for things. And I think the truth is much of what I've looked for in this world was already here. The last book, the tradition that I finished, the book that won the Pulitzer, many of its lines, many of the lines from the poems in that book are as old as 1999. I keep everything because I have everything I need. So when I'm putting a poem together, I get stuck. I can pull something from 2005 that didn't work. One thing that I tell my students is that if you're an artist and if you're a poet in particular, then you don't have any failures. If you write 10 poems that fail, that means you have 10 lines that are good. It is impossible. If you wrote a poem, that means you started somewhere with something that was good. It is impossible to have 10 poems that fail without 10 lines that are good. If you've got 10 lines that are good, you can take all 10 of those lines out of those poems and put them together for a brand new poem that would work. So that's the kind of thing that I think I learned in the church that I go to now.

I'm curious about believing in yourself. When did you learn to fully believe? And sometimes we'll accomplish something big and we're still like, when are people going to find out about me? Am I really that good or am I really I don't know if they're gonna, I'm still an imposter in some way. Do you feel that after winning the Pulitzer in any way? They're like, huh, are people ever gonna find out that I'm still trying to figure out my life and still trying to figure out how to write? Or do you feel 100% confident in what you do?

You know, I think people are confused about what believing in yourself really means. Like people think, I don't think, I mean, I am 100% confident in what I really do as an identity. not as a practice. Do you understand? Like, I know I'm Black, ain't no question about that for me. But in that same way, I know I'm a poet. Do you understand what I'm saying? Part of the reason I know I'm a poet is because I'm not good at other things. So, because there's a process of elimination going on. You know, I used to have a really good squat. I could squat a lot, but now I don't have that anymore. I can still write poems, though. Do you remember what I'm saying? if you have the ability to do something, then all you have is-- it's not that I have the ability to write poetry, it's that I have an identity as a poet, which means I have the ability to get better at writing poetry. Even when my poems are really good, I have the ability to re-envision every time I sit down to write poems. I have an idea of changing what my I have a way of changing what my definition of poetry is. I can re-envision what poetry might be. I can change what even I think poems can do or how they sound. And that's what it means to me to have confidence in oneself. It's not really like, oh, I'm so great. It's, oh, I can get better.

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Do you know what I mean? And if you can believe that, if you can believe that you can get better for the rest of your life, then you will also be doing really well. Really. Because you will always be trying to get better. So for me, no, like right now, I don't always, you know, my book came out in 2019 and I've learned this, I'm glad I got three books, so I've learned this, you know, things, if a book comes out in 2019, the writing that I do in 2019 and 2020 is not going to be the best writing I've ever done. It's not until 2021 that things are going to start looking up and then things look up well enough for me to fix some of that mess I was making back in 2019. Do you understand what I'm saying? Sure. knowing that is a knowing that I'm gonna get better. Often we can't make what we need to make because we haven't lived the experiences we need to live to make it. So sometimes we have a fraction. I know I'll have a fraction of a poem. I'm like, I don't know where this poem goes. But then I go see Moonlight. This book wouldn't have been finished if I hadn't seen Moonlight. You understand? I see a movie. or you fall in love, you go on a date, you climb a tree, you swim, like something happens, you visit a new country, something happens and you see things better. That's why we have to live fully. That's why we have to follow our bliss and live as much as we can possibly live. Poems are not just made out of language. If you have a mastery of language, then yeah, you'll be good at poetry, but you've got to also have experiences to build poetry. So I try to experience as much as I possibly can. That's sort of how I think about believing in myself. I don't think I'm the, I mean, you know, I think I'm good, but I don't think I'm the best poet in the whole world. I just think I could be. I don't think there's any reason why I can't be the best poet in the whole world. And as long as I believe that, that means I believe in myself.

What do you think then are the three or four keys to unlocking self-confidence for yourself or anyone?

Wow. Three or four keys to them. This is a great question. One is to practice something small. And if you can practice something small, then you can sort of move on to bigger things.

So don't practice something big right away.

Well, you could. You can, you can do this simultaneously as matter of fact. But the small thing will be arrived at first, giving you more confidence in the larger thing. Right? So right now, I'm practicing David Bowie's Less Dance every night. The only reason I'm practicing it, I'm not a singer. I'm not a singer at all, actually. But I have this idea that one of the things that I want to do when I'm finally able to go out and hang out again after the pandemic, is I'm going to go to somebody's karaoke bar and I'm going to sing the-- Slay it. I am going to wear that girl out. And I know I'm going to wear the song out, 'cause I have been practicing it every night in the shower. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm actually singing it on key finally. Wow. Do you understand what I mean? So if you could do something small, and then something with sort of a shorter deadline, sort of prepares you for larger things. where you're like, oh, I just take it moment by moment. So that's one thing that you can do. The other thing, I think, is to be aware of the tradition in which you're doing whatever it is you're doing. That means studying, knowing who's done it before you. That means being aware of the people who have come before you and having some sort of reverence for that art and for those people and for the thing that's come before you. You know, the first Black person to win a Pulitzer Prize in any category is Gwendolyn Brooks, and I love her poems. And I know my poems would not exist without her poems. And I know I needed to read all of her poems to be a writer, to be a poet. I know I've never met Langston Hughes. You know, he was long gone by the time I was born, but I know I exist because Langston Hughes existed, and his work means the world to me. I feel that I have a personal relationship with Langston Hughes in spite of never having met him. So whatever it is you want to do, you do have to have some idea of what's been done. What moment are you entering it at? How do you individualize yourself in terms of a tradition? Because you don't want to do exactly what's been done. Everybody's seen that. You want to do what only Jer, I want to do what only Jericho can do in this world. so that's. That's probably number two. And then I don't know if I have a number three. It's too good.

It's fine. It is good.

Yeah.

Do you believe that some of your greatest poems have come from pain or from Joy?

I believe that poems have to be like the life we live, and they need to be as complex as the lives we live. And when I'm reading poems, the poems I love most. have both in them. There's this poem by Lucille Clifton that a lot of people find a lot of solace in. It's called, Won't yout Celebrate With Me. And one of the lines of that poem is, I had no model. What did I see to be except myself? So there's this part of the poem that is indeed dour. Do you know what I mean? There is a part of the poem that suggests something wrong has gone on. But the end of that poem is, won't you celebrate with me that every day something has tried to kill me and has failed, right? So there's the idea in this poem, there's this grit of the everyday something trying to kill you. But then there's the fact that that thing fails, that you make it, that you not just survive, but that you thrive, right? So I think people, a lot of people want poems to be like Hallmark cards, but only Hallmark cards are like Hallmark cards. You know, people get upset with poetry about this. Often I find folk want to go to poetry because they want something other than their lives. But all poetry is going to give back to you.

Is your life.

Wow. Poetry really is about feeling better. And so you will feel your pain, your anguish, your sadness better than you felt it before. But what poetry asks us to do is to become more human because we can feel those things better. We need that here more than ever. Over and over again, we're told to numb ourselves. This happens to men in a particular way, but all of us are told to numb ourselves if we turn on our TV right now, if I turn on the TV right now, I'm going to see 27 things that I am not supposed to have an emotional reaction to. And if I declare an emotional reaction to those things, people will act like I'm the crazy one. Do you know what I mean? So we're literally trained against intimacy. We're trained against vulnerability. People don't like poetry because they ask us. Poems ask us for intimacy. They ask us for vulnerability. They ask us to fail at the thing that billboards all over the country are telling us to win at. Do you know what I mean? So, and that's what I love about poetry. The poems I love most speak to that which is the pain of my life and that which is the joy of my life. And if I'm a poet of witness, I can't say that I've only witnessed pain. I have to be able to say that I've also witnessed joy. But all of that, both of those have to be in a single poem. No poem is completely dour.

It can't be all suffering or all joy. It needs to be the range of emotions.

Because I, my life is not all suffering, thank God. And my life is not all joy, thank God. Do you know what I mean? My life, you know, there's sort of a, I feel I'm at this point in my life where my life is all joy, even if I don't always feel that joy, you know, that I have to bring, sometimes I feel there is something in the back of my life that I feel like undergirds all of the good times and all of the bad times, and it's even better than the good times or the bad times, right? But sometimes if you're in the midst of a bad time, it's hard to grab on to that thing, that's better. But the only way to do that is again, I know I keep saying the same thing over and over is practice. And you got to get in touch with that thing. You have to get in touch with the way things are, no matter what. There is a way things are, whether there is COVID or not. There is a way things are, whether your child is in pain or not. There is a way things are, whether you are in an argument with your lover or not. And you have to be able to get in touch with the way that that things are, no matter what the circumstance. And that if you can get in touch with that thing, when you're in a bad circumstance, you can in the midst of that circumstance go through it knowing that it's momentary.

Right, right. You mentioned about how as men we're kind of shamed into having vulnerable expression or intimacy expression.

And then told to fall in love. you know what I mean?

Well, and then to, to fall in love and to be more available. Yeah. Emotionally when our practice.

There's no practice. No practice.

You know, it's, it's interesting because I grew up in a small town in Ohio and middle of America where I was not allowed to really express myself. Right. But I was a very sensitive kid. I had two older sisters, older brother went, it was an artist, but also he was in prison for four and a half years selling drugs to an undercover cop. So I went to a prison a to visit him. And I felt very in tune with my emotions but was constantly told to not emote. I ended up writing a book a few years ago called the Mask of Masculinity where I went down this path of like, why do men wear masks? And how do we take the mask off to reveal ourselves to have more intimacy? Because I felt like it was killing me, not expressing myself. As a queer man, do you feel more shame in expressing yourself less shame? Do you feel like it's harder to be able to express emotions?

You know, I don't know, because I'm not a straight man, right? But as a queer man, I do feel like depending on where you are and what situation you're in, it's all the more difficult. You know, it's the same reason why so many women, you know, in spite of presidents that we have or presidents that we've had, there's this idea that women are too emotional to be president. And therefore, when they appear, they're supposed to appear without emotion. Where, you know, my favorite thing about Barack Obama being president is when he would cry. I was like, oh, he must mean that thing. He's crying. Do you know what I mean? So for me, I think it's really difficult for all of us to be who we are because there's this fear that vulnerability is going to lead to danger for us. We have this idea that as soon as someone sees a vulnerability, they're going to take advantage of it. Right? And then we're not living fully.

We're holding back something. Yeah.

If you're not, if you are not capable of being vulnerable, you will not fall in love. And of all, no matter how supposedly masculine or macho you are, I, everybody I know wants to fall in love. I don't know anybody who don't want to fall in love.

They want to be, they want to be loved at least.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think, and you know, if you're really going to be loved, you got to love somebody. And I, so for me, the trouble of being queer as it relates to this show of masculinity really just has to do with finding opportunities to be yourself. It's very difficult, I think, when you're a man to be yourself without first looking for opportunities to do it. Like you've got to seek that thing out. You gotta be like, I'm going to go to this place where no one else is and see how I act. Or I'm going to go be around my dad and try to see how often when I'm around my dad, I do things because I have this fear that my dad is going to judge me. And then that's how you figure your integrity out. integrity, authenticity, that's about being the same person, no matter who the audience is. And then that gives you work to do. But we all have work to do as it relates to our masculinity, our sensitivity, our vulnerability, and what that means.

Isn't it interesting that you said you felt most connected to Obama when he would be vulnerable, when he would show emotion and cry? That's when you felt actually like you trusted him, I'm assuming more, and you believed in him more. Yeah. Isn't it funny? This is from all my work of just, like, living it and experiencing it and being more vulnerable in general and just going through a healing process in my life in the last seven years and writing about this, that the ones that are the most vulnerable are usually the most powerful.

Yeah.

And the most trusted, the most liked and the most that people want to buy into. But why do you think we have this fear, especially as men? that if we show these emotions, these vulnerabilities, that no one will love us, no one will accept us, no one will trust us or believe us, and they'll all take advantage of us.

Well, the truth is, if you are who you are, there are people who won't love you. That is actually true.

Of course.

It is true that people will try to take advantage of you. It is true that people won't love you. It is true that people will mistreat you. All of that is true. The problem is, why do you want to be around those people anyway? I mean, the real trouble with us is that we've made this hierarchy of folk that we want to be liked by. And when you look at who we want to be liked by, it's like, what do I want to be liked by that guy for? He's awful. He's cruel. You know, if this guy could, he would hurt me. So why am I trying to prove to that guy how strong I am? I should be trying to be around people who love the person I am. One of the questions I've always asked is how my family feels about my poems and how my family reacts to my poems. And my answer to that question is always, I don't know. I don't show my parents my poems. I want to be free to write my poems. The only way to, I don't, if I was the checkout guy at Kroger, I wouldn't bring my mom and dad to work with me to see me check people out at Kroger. If I was an architect, who designed a mall, I wouldn't show my mom the plans for the mall. She didn't know anything about architecture, what I'm showing her. Do you understand what I mean? So why would I bring her my poems when I know what her reaction to my freedom already is? Why are we, of course we don't take our vulnerable selves to those who are going to hurt us, but why are we around these people with our vulnerable selves? So in the same way, that you sort of follow a positive thought, right? You have to follow a positive way of being. You have to follow a positive person. You have to follow a positive community. And you have to be around folk that love you no matter what. And we don't really believe in that as a possibility. Just love you no matter what. I mean, a lot of times we think we can buy that. We think we can buy love. But, you know, there's proof you can't buy that. You, there are feelings, there are experiences that you can't buy. You know, no matter how much money you have, if you have a kid, no matter what your salary is, no matter what your earning potential is, there is nothing like the day your kid says, dada or mama, for everybody with a kid. Nothing like that. You cannot buy it. It is not for sale. Do you know what I mean? And that relationship, the way you feel about that kid, the way that kid feels about you, you cannot buy that. That is not for sale. So I think part of the reason why we have this confusion is because so much of our culture is built on that which we can commodify. And so it's about what I can show. So I'll show you this face of masculinity, this facade of masculinity, and then I'm marketable to you somehow. I don't know what I'm marketable to do, but I'm somehow accepted by you and loved by you because you can sell that face. You don't know what to sell. You don't know how to sell this Jericho Brown. Like, what do I do with that? Do you know what I mean? And the question is, can you look at people, can people look at you without wondering what to do with you? Why is everybody wanting put everybody up for the market. Like, what is that about? You know, I work at his gym where there, I was working out at a gym where there were these bodybuilders and some women, some men, and some of the other men who would work out at the gym would always complain about these women bodybuilding. And I would, because they didn't like the way their bodies looked. And I remember I saw, I said to, I said to one of them, you know, Everybody's not actually here to be, you know, sexually attractive for you.

We.

Really do think like people are supposed to be sexually attractive to us. And then when they're not, they somehow lose value. It's very strange. It's like really weird, man. Do you know what I'm saying? Like that's a real thing that we have looking from one person to another, where we commoditize, Like, what can you do for me? How do I feel about you? Wait a minute. Like, why does it, why is it about a quid pro quo of some satisfaction as opposed to loving people because they are?

And I always find that instead of thinking what can someone do for me? I always try to think what can I do for this person in this moment, whether it be a smile or a gesture or a consideration or acknowledgement or whatever it may be. But what can I do for that person? Yeah, it always comes back around, you know?

Yeah, and real giving, you know, you know when you're really giving because it feels selfish, you know, you know when you're really actually doing something for somebody else because you feel the bliss of, I mean, there's no feeling better than giving.

That's true.

And it feels so good you can't believe you gave something. I feel like you got something. That's how you know you're giving is sincere. because when you give something away, you feel like you got it. When you make the real offer, that's how you know you're giving is sincere.

Yeah, the getting is in the giving. You know, it's always, you always get when you give. Yeah. I'm curious about, you've got an obviously an interesting relationship with your parents. What's the greatest lesson your mom and your dad taught you, both of them separately, that has supported your life in a positive way?

My mom taught me a lot of She's amazing. She's an improvisational genius. But one of the things my mom always also, this is not the answer to this question, but my mom always believed in me as a writer. She wouldn't admit that to my dad, but she was always supporting me as a writer. She was always encouraging me to write. I don't think she meant for me to be a poet, but she really thought I was a good writer. She always did. One of the things she taught me was that in any situation, all you can do is what you can do. So if you're fretting about something, you have to let that thing go. I remember I had this roommate and he wasn't paying his bills and he wasn't paying his half of things. And I was like, Mama, I don't know what to do. And she's like, well, did you do these 16 things that you're supposed to do in this situation? And I said, Yes, ma'am, I did all those things. And she said, well, then everything's going to be fine because you've done all you you can do.

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And my mother really is the person who taught me, Let it go. Like after you've given what you can give, let that let thing go, move on to another thing. And other than what you can do, you can dream about it, worry about it, fret, call your friends, you can complain, but that's not going to make it better. The only thing that works is what you can do. And after that, you got to let it go. And then the, the thing, I think of the thing I learned from my dad or from both, you know, my dad used to say, I don't want to, I don't want to make a bad Hustler out of you. And so one of the things that I think I learned from them together and definitely from my dad is just how to use what I have in order to survive. You know, my dad built his business. My dad, my mom and my dad, when I was a kid, they bought a cleaners and dry cleaners and it failed, leaving them in financial ruin. I mean, there was a point at which we were living inside the cleaners is how bad it was for us. And there were many days in my life where, you know, the lights weren't on or, you know, we had to go without certain things. And my dad's remedy for that was the fact that he did own a lawn mower. So he started charging people to cut their yard until he bought another lawn mower. And then another lawn mower. And then a riding lawn mower, you know, which was a big deal. He's like, I got a lot of riding lawn. I cut that thing in five minutes.

Yeah.

And then he wasn't just cutting yards, he was doing flower beds, he was cleaning gutters. Then they weren't just doing that, my mom was cleaning the insides of these people's houses. So they were doing this kind of work because they were using what they had in order to take care and provide for their family. And they taught me that anything is possible given what I do have around me that I would be able to, if not thrive, at least survive. and they, and so, so I'll say, what I mean by that is that they taught me the power of hard work. It was very important to them that we get an education. You know, they ended up with a poet and a filmmaker. My sister's a filmmaker. I think sometimes they just wish they hadn't had us do all of the educational things they had us do because we found out there were options that they didn't know about.

What advice do you have for the struggling artists, the ones who haven't made money around their passion, their dream, their creative craft. How have you learned to make a full-time living around poetry? What advice would you have to other creatives when they're like, well, I'm not paying the bills. I'm not able to really survive that well in this craft. What have you done?

Grace. Grace Paley used to say, keep the overhead low. She's a great writer. She was a great writer. and she said, you know, no matter how much you begin to make, just pay attention to how much you spend and what you spend it on. But one of the things I would say is that improvisation is your friend. It's a good idea for us to be able to improvise at a moment's notice. And that does take some belief in ourselves. Do you know what I mean? You've asked me questions, for instance, that I was not prepared to answer. but I just need to answer them because here we are. And that's my job. That's what I signed on to do. So if you ask me a question, I'm going to answer it as you ask the question. So I would say being able to improvise in the midst of those hard times, what does improvisation look like? I'll give you an example of what improvisation looks like. just in terms of real, just real for me at least, real live like money stuff, financial stuff. Let's say you're poor and you fall in love. Let's say you meet somebody real fun. Oh, he's fun. Oh my God. And you can't take him nowhere. You ain't gonna take him nowhere because you cannot afford it. You have to begin to think about and what you do for what you have, what you're able to afford is going to acting classes. Right? Or going to your education to be an artist. Or some way of going back and forth to work. You know, sometimes we're spending all our money on gas to get to where we need to be to make the money, right? What would I do? And what would I like to be done? And what do I think would work? I think a blanket works. I think people still like a good playlist. I think you know how to make a sandwich and maybe you can still afford a couple of sandwiches. and I think you can put that blanket in your living room. You don't even have to put it outside. And that, my friends, is a date. And it's a date no one would ever forget. And it's the cheapest date I can think of right now. It also takes a little bit of thought because, of course, you would put a playlist together based on what that person likes. And so you have to be able to improvise in your career when times get hard. in the same way. The second thing I would have to say is that it's very important for us as artists to be aware of just how much abundance there is of everything in the world. And the more you can be aware and just observe it, I mean, I mean this, this changed my life. I just got to the point when I was riding around and looking at trees, I would say, oh my God, there's so many leaves on the earth. look at all these leaves on all these. Oh, my goodness. There's enough leaves. There's enough. There's way more than enough leaves. If you can believe that there's enough leaves. Now, one. The other thing you can think about is your hair. This doesn't work for everybody. Oh, look how much hair is on my head. Look how much skin is on my body. Oh, my God. It's over there, too. Like, seriously, like, if you can notice. the abundance of anything. Look at the number of water bottles in your cabinet that you're not actually using. If you can notice and make a habit of noticing the abundance of things in the world, you will begin to see the abundance of money in your bank account. Because you will begin to believe that there is more than enough. If you can begin to believe that there is more than enough of everything that we need, then it will be there for you. That's not just money, but that's opportunity. And so if you could, so that's my practice, and that was my practice, and I think it helped. And lastly, I would just say to find ways, even if they're very cheap ways, to celebrate the smallest of triumphs. the smallest of victories. Put the energy of celebration into the world for the smallest thing. So you don't get the call, you don't get the part, but you got the call back. Celebrate the callback. Create the energy. And you might celebrate that with ice cream. Like you might not have a party, right? You might celebrate that because you stay up a little later and watch another episode of something you're binge watching. Do you understand? But you, if you call it that, that's the energy you give it. And when you give it that energy, that energy has to come back to you. Of course, all of this only works if you believe that there's energy that comes back to you, right? If you believe that you yourself vibrate a kind of energy, and that energy can only be around what matches to it, right? So if you're vibrating in the energy of abundance, then you will be around abundance. If you notice abundance, you will draw abundance to you. So you have to first believe that and you have to practice. I mean, all of those things that I said take practice. Many people don't like to practice these things because they don't want to be made a fool of, you know, but the best relationship I was ever in, I was in that relationship. And I know this is true because I would sleep on one side of my bed for 30 days. I know I really sound like a crazy person now, but I would sleep on one side for 30 days. I slept on one side of my bed. And every night before I fell asleep, I said, I love you, too. And I was saying it to nobody.

Before, yeah, when you're alone. Yeah.

By myself.

Wow.

You know, I always tell my friend, I told my friend Kyla, she's a great poet. She's like, how do I get a boyfriend? I said, when you get home, look up up in the air. She likes tall guys. Look up in the air and kiss. Get on your tiptoes and kiss the air every time you come in the house. I think it took her. I mean, I met the guy that I was with for about seven years somewhere on that 20th, 21st day. She met her guy on, like, the 23rd day. She's like, Jericho, I can't get rid of him. She's like, I like him. you know, and so, you know, the, you have to make a fool. I mean, but we're talking to artists, so we've already done it. We've taken the leap. We've taken the leap and we're interested. We're interested in magic, you know, we're interested in magic. I know I'm interested in sorcery. I know I'm interested in wizardry. I believe that I write, I write phrases like, the linebacker was a bear. Now, when I say the linebacker was a bear, you see two things. One thing you see is a linebacker and the other thing you see is a bear. But never in your life have you expected to go to a football field, to a football game and see a bear. And yet I just made a bear for you. So I did that. Do you know what I mean? And if you're an artist, that's what you're very aware of sorcery. And so you just got to take the leap and make it personal to yourself, I think. That's beautiful.

I love this. I mean, I'm all for thinking in terms of abundance and practicing it, even when you lack the abundance and noticing it. I think that's the powerful way to just really start attracting. Was there a moment when financial abundance started coming to you? When you noticed it from not having a lot of money towards, oh, deals are coming in. Oh, I'm getting paid for my art. Oh, I got a bigger book advance. Oh, I got this guest speaking, whatever it may be. I got this licensing deal. Was there a moment where it started to really flood in? Yeah.

Well, you know, the flood in, My background is so poor, I thought when I got my first job, I was like, wait, this is how much people get paid? Like I made it, I'm rich. I was living in San Diego, California, and I was an assistant professor, like, you know what I mean? And even when I had the job I had before that as a speechwriter, I wasn't making a lot of money because city employees don't get paid a lot of money. But I remember thinking the amount of money I made that was supposed to be so low that people were complaining about that they were thinking of unionizing over and all this, that amount of money was the amount of money that my mom and dad would make in a year and that they raised two kids with. And I was making that amount of money by myself. So for me, maybe I'm not the guy to ask the question, or maybe I am, maybe we have to realize that one way to measure our gratitude has to do with realizing that people are surviving. and people are thriving. People are laughing, having a good time, making love, and they don't make a lot of money. You know what I mean? There are a lot of people who are having a good time right now, and they do not have a lot of money. I want to encourage people to make a lot of money. Y'all are welcome to it. And yet, when we do have money, how grateful are we for our money and how good are we stewards of our money? How much have we allowed our money to stretch? What are we doing with our money? Have we put our money back into our art? Have we put our money into the things that we do indeed love? Or have we used our money to save people that we actually cannot save? Or have we used our money in frivolous ways? What are we celebrating when we celebrate with our money? Are we celebrating with our money? Can you count it? Do you know where your money's going? So I think one thing for me was just realizing step by step Step that no matter what I was doing, I was always doing better than what I had done.

Yeah.

And then another thing for me is when I first got, I remember the first time, you know, you would publish a poem and they'd send you like $25 for a poem. I was, I mean, for me, I had written a poem and it was 16 lines and somebody sent me a $25 check. I was like, oh my God, $25 is a lot of chicken. I, you know, so I'm always, you know, but then again, I have to say I have a lot of questions, you know, and, and maybe I'm not the person to ask this. I've been very, I have been very blessed as an artist. I've won a lot of grants, fellowships, prizes, and I, and I am grateful for that. I've also worked very hard for those things to happen. But I also know that $25 is a lot of chicken. if you know how to put a chicken in the oven, that's all right. You know what I mean? 25 is still a lot of chicken. That's a lot of bills. So that's the kind of thing that I think about. And I think our gratitude for what we do have helps expand our possibility for having more.

Yeah. If you could write a poem about the last 90 minutes, what would be the poem? that you would write right now?

I'm here with Lewis, and I knew this would be a moment in which I showed that we are indeed like the trees here forever, even after we are gone, which we won't be. as long as we have song. And it has been a joy to sing with you today, my friend, who is so far away.

Wow.

That's beautiful.

Just got the chills, man.

That was beautiful. That's made it up. Yeah, it's, you know, I don't think I'll send it out anywhere, but you.

Sent it out to me, and I appreciate it. If you can only read one poem that you've written. And all the other poems would be have to go on a shelf somewhere that would not be able to be read. What would be the poem that you would share with the world? If no one ever reads your poetry, and this is the only poem that they have, what would you share?

I read this poem about my mom, Four Day in the Morning. My mother grew mourning glories that spilled onto the walkway toward her porch. because she was a woman with land who showed as much by giving it color. She told me I could have whatever I worked for. That means she was an American. But she'd say it was because she believed in God. I am ashamed of America and confounded by God. I thank God for my citizenship in spite of the timer set on my life to write. these words. I love my mother. I love black women who plant flowers as sheepish as their sons. By the time the blooms unfurl themselves for a few hours of light, the women who tend them are already at work. Blue. I'll never know who started the lie that we are lazy, but I'd love to wake that bastard up at 4:00 in the morning, toss him in a truck and drive him under God past every bus stop in America to see all those black black folk waiting to go work for whatever they want. A house, a boy to keep the lawn cut, some color in the yard. My God. We leave things green.

Wow. There you go. That was beautiful. I love that. This has been powerful, man. I hope we. I hope we can connect in person.

That'll be great.

Sure. I've got two final questions for you, if that's okay. But I want people to follow you, man. I want them to follow you. They can go to social media, Jericho Brown on Twitter, Jericho Brown one on Instagram, Jericho Brown on Facebook. Your website is also JerichoBrown.com.

I'm assuming. Yep. JerichoBrown.com.

And your most recent book, the Tradition, which I think that's where I don't know if that's what you were reading out of that book.

Yeah, I was just reading from the tradition.

Tradition which won the Pulitzer Prize. Make sure you guys go get that book. You can get it on Jericho's website or on Amazon or anywhere. You can get your books and check out his other books as well. I think they will crack you open. They'll give you an exploration of your life, of another person's life and other people's lives out there, what people go through and hopefully tapping into something that's always been inside of you to live in your life moving forward. This question is called the Three Truths, Jericho. It's something I ask everyone at the end. And I want you to imagine a hypothetical scenario. It's your last day on Earth. Many, many, many years from now, you get to live as long as you want. But one day, you got to turn the lights off.

Okay? Yeah.

And you've accomplished every dream you could imagine. Everything you've seen in your mind, you've created, like the wizard that you are in the world. and you've lived that life. Everything you want to do, you've done. All the books, all the work, everything, it's happened. But for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your books, all of your body of work, all of your interviews, all of your content with you to the next place, wherever that is. And it's your last moments on Earth. You get to write down three things you know to be true from all the lessons you've learned in your life and these three lessons that you would share with us, the world. to live by. What would you say are those three truths for you?

Wow. You ask the hardest questions, don't you? One truth is that I am more than my body and more than anything that my body experiences. I'm more than some idea of a purpose in life that my actual purpose is probably greater than my sense of purpose could in this human form. Another thing is that because energy cannot be extinguished, even after I lose this form, somehow or another, I'm still here. So if life was as great as you say it will be on that last day, then I can go knowing that in some way it continues to be great. And then third, I'm much better at twos than I am threes, but I got a third. To be open to love, to allow yourself to be loved and to love as feverishly and as crazy as you can possibly love. If things are, as you say, they will be at the end of my life in this scenario, then I will have made a big fool out of myself. and I will have enjoyed it as a lover and as a person who is loved.

That's beautiful, man. Before I ask the final question, Jericho, I want to acknowledge you for the incredible gift that you are in this world, for your humanity that you bring to this conversation and to your work, for your joyful, laughing nature, for reminding all of us to be childlike in our laughter. for your wisdom, for your spirit, and for your positive energy. I really acknowledge you for all those gifts. And again, can't wait to meet you in person someday and give you a hug. I can't wait, too, man.

I give big bear hugs.

I give big bear hugs.

I'm in the studio. I want to be in person for everything. I'm here, man. Yeah. I'm gonna come. I'm gonna come. We'll do it.

Okay, man. The final question for you, Jericho, is what's your definition of greatness.

Greatness is to be in a position where you're learning. To be truly great is to be in a position where you're becoming and you feel yourself becoming and you know that you have sought out becoming greater than you already were, no matter how great you are. So greatness has to do with being in the moment of education, in the moment of learning, in the. In the moment of exploration, of experience. That's what real greatness is. And to be aware of that moment when it to seek that moment out and to be aware of it when it happens. There it is.

Jericho Brown, thank you so much for being here, man.

Thank you.

My friend, thank you so much for listening to this episode. If someone sent you this in a text message or on social media, send a message back to that person thanking them for sharing this and also pay this inspiration forward by copy and pasting the link wherever you're listening to this right now by using the episode link lewishowes.com/1033 and texting it to a few friends, posting it on your social media, and make sure to tag me @lewishowes and Jericho Brown as well. You can see the full show notes over at lewishowes.com/1033 or in the description. You'll see the links on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening to podcasts right now. I was so inspired and moved by Jericho's message, his story, his wisdom. in his poetry. So make sure you check out his work, follow him on social media, and learn more about him at his website. And if you enjoyed this, click that subscribe button over on Apple podcast right now to stay up to date with more great interviews from world-class athletes, scientists, doctors, celebrities who are opening up and being vulnerable and real about their secrets to success and their path to Greatness. Also, leave us a five-star rating and view over on Apple Podcasts. If you want to help us spread the message to more people, those reviews really help get the message out to more people. And if you want inspirational messages from me every single week sent to your phone, then text the word podcast right now to 614-350-3960. And I want to leave you with this quote from Charles Dickens who said, the human race has only one really effective weapon, and that is laughter. I want to remind you to laugh today, to love a little bit deeper, and to be open and real with yourself so you can have a deeper connection with the people around you. I'm very grateful for you, and if no one has told you lately, you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter, my friend. You know what time it is? It's time to go out there and do something great.

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