1051 CIA Director REVEALS All: Making Mistakes, Being a Leader & Inside the Bin Laden Mission w/John Brennan

This is episode number 1051 with the former CIA director John Brennan.

Sometimes it shakes your confidence. Certainly it makes you wonder whether, not just whether the decisions that you made were wrong, but just, you know, how are you going to be able to make future decisions? Of course we have to take care of our own country and our own people, but that doesn't mean we do it at the expense of the rest of the world.

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Lao Tzu once said, when you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everyone will respect you. And Albert Einstein said, whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters. John Brennan was the director of the CIA from 2013 until 2017 and during that time he was responsible for intelligence collection, analysis, covert action, counterintelligence and liaison relationships with foreign intelligence services. From 2009 to 2013, John was assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism. And I was fascinated by everything that John was sharing. I didn't want this conversation to stop. There was so much I wanted to learn and it was an honor to talk with John and hear his incredible stories and wisdom. And I can't wait for you to hear this. In this episode we discuss how to make sure you're not being followed or tracked by other agents, the months leading up to Bin Laden's mission and the most nerve wracking 90 minutes for Brennan, the details of possible attacks after 911 that were stopped by John and and his team. Which presidents John was inspired by the most while he was working with them, making mistakes and being a leader. How to navigate that, how to deal with the responsibility of making incredibly tough decisions, how you can tell if a person is lying to you or telling the truth, the three common principles that made the President's effective decision makers and leaders and the qualities you should develop right now if you want to become the President of the United States and and so much more. It was truly fascinating conversation. Make sure to share with a friend that you think would be inspired. Lewishouse.com 1051 or you can just copy and paste this link wherever you're listening to it on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or anywhere else. And make sure to subscribe over on Apple Podcasts and leave us a rating and review if you're inspired by this mission and you want to spread greatness to more people. Okay, in just a moment, the one and only John Brennan. Welcome back everyone, to the School of Greatness. I am very excited. We have New York Times bestselling author John Brennan in the House. Thank you so much for being here.

It's great to be with you, Louis.

And you have seen some of the craziest things in the, in the last 40 years working with the CIA almost for four decades. Is that right? You were working there?

Well, I worked first for 25 years at CIA and retired. Went off to the private sector to see what it was like to earn a living outside of the appropriations of.

Congress, to make real money.

Well, yeah, for at least a little while. I went back in for the entire eight years of the Obama administration, four of which were at the CIA. So 29 years at CIA and four plus years at the White House.

What would you say is the craziest thing that you had to deal with? Because it seems like every four to six years there's something crazy that happens. What would you say was the biggest stress for you that you needed to face and help overcome?

Well, there's so many to choose from. There are all my interactions with Congress and the hyper partisan environment there. I think, as I point out in the book, an equal opportunity offender. So there are people on both sides of the aisle that have called for my resignation of firing over the years.

Everyone wanted you fired.

Yeah, yeah. It's sort of the life of a CIA director and intelligence officer. But obviously the, the bin Laden raid was a very nerve wracking, anxiety producing, nail biting situation. Dealing with the aftermath of 911 and trying to ensure that CIA was able to respond very quickly to prevent recurrences of those attacks. And that aftermath was particularly challenging because we were also dealing with the Washington sniper, the anthrax attacks. Just a number of things that I think just made the whole environment all that more of concern and worry and so, and then many things that when I was overseas, you know, just making sure that my children were going to be safe when we lived in Saudi Arabia, when there were terrorist attacks in the region and, and many things that I can't talk to you about. Right, sure, sure. Was very intense. Yeah.

What, what is the, you know, I think when people think of a CIA agent, they think of a spy in a movie or a film that's romanticized in that way. What is a day in the life of a CIA agent actually look like?

Yeah. And one of the things I think is important is terminology, because a lot of people refer to, you know, C as being the CIA employees. But in our lexicon, at least, CIA officers who engage in conducting espionage are called case officers. They're operations officers. They're the ones who are trained in the tradecraft of espionage and go out and try to recruit foreign nationals to spy against their countries. Really? Yes. And it's those foreign nationals who are referred to as the spies or the. The assets or the CIA agents, which is a bit confusing because FBI agents are actual, you know, FBI employees. They're the Americans who are in the FBI who carry out their law enforcement responsibilities. So there is, you know, a difference in view, a difference in lexicon. Sure. But again, CIA officers and I started off in the CIA very briefly as a case officer to go.

So you were working. You were working with other people from another country to try to get information to use for our country.

Right. That's what CIA case officers do. They. They don't necessarily work with officers of other countries. In fact, frequently when they go overseas, and most times they go overseas, it's not known that they are CIA officers. They have other Personas. They have maybe other official cover, such as employee of another government agency or department. They may work at embassies, but they are not known to be CIA officers because they have to operate surreptitiously in order to meet with foreign nationals who are going to commit basically treason against their countries.

Crazy. How do you convince someone of a country, who has pride of a country, maybe they don't anymore. How do you convince them to essentially work for you against that country?

Well, it's interesting because I think foreign nationals who decide to work for CIA do so for a variety of reasons and motivations. Some live within countries that human rights and political openness and freedom of speech are very much suppressed. And they believe very strongly in what the United States of America stands for. And so they want to try to help the United States because they feel that the United States is a force of good in the world. Some individuals are motivated by money or by the potential for resettlement in the United States if they work for the CIA over the course of time and they provide us useful information. They want their children to go to American universities. They want to get the visas, the immigrant visas to come and settle in the United States. And also there are some people who just, you know, enjoy the whole romance of it all because they are involved in this, again, clandestine activity working with the CIA. So I think most of them have a component of that first category, which is that there is something that they admire, respect, like about the United States, and want to try to support US Interests, global interests.

How many. Well, would you call them spies, then, for the other countries, essentially?

Yeah, the people, the foreign nationals who are recruited by CIA or spy. Yeah, assets.

How many people did you recruit? Or is that something you're allowed to talk about?

No, Well, I didn't. As I said, I started out just very briefly in CIA as a case officer, but then I realized that I didn't have, I think, the skills, the interests to do that because it really is a very, very challenging profession because they have to adopt these false Personas, basically, and try to cultivate relationships with foreign nationals and try to develop a rapport that's going to allow them to then recruit these individuals to work on behalf of the U.S. government. And I find it difficult to misrepresent who I am. And so I moved over into the analytic ranks of CIA. Now, I also did serve as the chief of station overseas in the Middle east in the 1990s, and I oversaw those espionage activities. So my admiration is very, very strong for the women and men of CIA who over the years have gone to great lengths and taken great risks and have demonstrated great courage to recruit these foreign spies who really give the United States the type of insight that we need to understand nature of the threats against us.

How did you know that the information was accurate? As someone overseeing these, you know, agents who were finding assets of other countries, how could you trust that the information was true?

Well, a lot of people who want to give information to the United States, their information ranges from the most accurate and reliable to the most specious and bogus. And it's up to CIA officers to try to determine whether or not someone is being truthful. And there are different ways to do that. There are ways to validate or verify information. There are techniques and tools that you use to try to find out if someone's being honest, including the polygraph. So CIA will, you know, frequently administer polygraph exams to foreign nationals who are spying for us. Those. Those polygraph exams are not necessarily dispositive of the truth, but they frequently will, you know, rivet one's attention on telling the truth. So, and also there's a track record. Over time, again, you're able to verify somebody's access, verify that the information or documents that they may be providing are, in fact, true. You also have to make sure that they're not a. What's called a dangle, which is a foreign intelligence service. You know, pushes someone forward to a presumed CIA officer and to see whether or not they're going to be recruited and as a way to expose CIA intelligence activity. So it really is a challenging, challenging profession and undertaking for, you know, the CIA to make sure that their human assets are going to be providing information that is accurate, reliable, and important.

This is fascinating to me because you're essentially living a lie when you have to go out and be undercover and be. Act like you're someone you're not. How does someone like that, and I don't know if you know this or not, but how does someone go out, let's say nine to nine, and then come home at night and be in integrity, be honest, you know, be their word with their friends and family and not continue to wear the mask that they're living most of the day?

That's a really good point. And I do think that there's a certain amount of professional schizophrenia that has to exist because, yes, you have this undercover CIA responsibility and identity, but you have to live maybe a different type of COVID another government agency cover or commercial cover, but you also have to be very, very careful in terms of, who knows, your actual organizational affiliation. When I was director of CIA, we would have, every year, what's called a family day, and CIA officers, women and men, would bring in their families and show them around CIA headquarters and bring them up to the director suite where my wife and I would greet them. And there was a couple of dozen, I think, occasions over the course of four years of family days where CIA employees were bringing their children into CIA headquarters for the first time. And it was the day when the children learned that their parent actually was a CIA employee.

No way.

As opposed to being an employee of another organization or just a private company or something. And the look on these kids faces when they came in and just where, you know, they were gobsmacked that, oh my goodness, it's so cool. My mom is a CIA officer, my dad is. And because you don't want to burden your family members, especially children, with this knowledge that if exposed, really could compromise a CIA officer's ability to carry out their activities. So it's, you know, when CIA officers conduct these activities overseas, they are basically violating the laws of foreign countries because carrying out espionage activities, just like here in the United States, if a Russian or Chinese intelligence officer was doing it, they're breaking the law. And the same thing that CIA officers do overseas. So again, it's a very risky profession, but also a critically important profession.

Wow. How many assets do you think there are in America that are doing work for other countries?

More than a few. Wow. There. The fact that the United States, I think is really the epicenter of democratic values and freedoms and liberties allows a lot of foreign governments and intelligence and security services to use the openness of American society, whether they send individuals here under government cover or as businessmen, or as students or academics. And so you can imagine the FBI in particular has its hands full to try to understand. Yeah, because you know, the theft of intellectual property, of technology. Now we're, you know, in this Covid environment of, you know, pharmaceutical information or, you know, related to vaccines or whatever, whatever else. You know, the intelligence security services from around the world are very active in the United States. And thankfully, you know, we have a world class FBI organization that does a good job of trying to keep track of them. But in addition, they have to keep track of, you know, would be terrorists. And so it's a, it's a full plate of responsibilities.

How do you have inner peace when you're in this position? You know, when you're running this organization within the government? And how do people that are living these secret lives in the organization not stress out all the time, not break down, not be emotional wrecks, not have anxiety attacks? Like how do you guys cope? Is there strategies, is there meditation? Is there, you know, you know you're fighting for something greater. What is the way to manage your inner interpersonal well being?

Well, the CIA has always tried to take care of its employees, particularly those that have these very stressful positions and responsibilities. And it is stressful. You know, a CIA officer is handling a foreign national who is an asset of CIA, who is really putting their lives on the line. Because if these foreign nationals are found out by their governments, they can spend their life in jail or be executed. And there have been many CIA assets over the years who have been killed because of their CIA relationship. That's why it's so important for a CIA officer who is meeting with a foreign asset or national to do everything, everything possible to prevent any exposure of that individual. So when CIA officers operate overseas, you know, they called, they, they go black. They, they will spend hours upon hours upon hours ensuring that there is no tail that they have picked up from the local intelligence and security services. So that when they have that very, very quick meeting with an asset, you know, in a park or wherever that they have not been trailed. And they have to make sure that the asset also conducts him or herself in a manner that is not alerting to the local authorities. And, and goes through the same process of trying to ensure that they're not being tracked as they meet with their CIA case officer.

How do you, if it's just practical for the human being that's not a CIA operative, how does someone know when they're not being trailed or tailed? How do you get someone off your back?

Well, there are certain techniques. I'm not going to reveal CIA's tradecraft, but CIA officers go through extensive, extensive training and they go to great lengths and there are ways and techniques that you can at least have strong confidence that you are free of any observation. Sometimes it takes some very innovative and creative means, including the use of disguises or whatever. So I think over the course of CIA's 73 years or so of existence, we have developed a number of techniques and learned lessons that are very important for this.

Is there anything that you could share that's more basic stuff that is common practice or well known?

Well, disguises I think are fairly well known in terms of a way to mask one's identity. It's become much more challenging though, as a result of all the technological advancements, particularly over the last two decades, especially with the evolution and explosion in the digital domain, because the environment now overseas is such that the traditional ways to get across borders or to operate clandestinely in foreign countries no longer apply. In the past, intelligence services could fabricate passports as well as visas and then go into countries and with a fistful of 50s, as people say, operate is still at great risk. But they didn't have to worry about closed circuit televisions or the digital domain, you know, because every time you use a credit card or at an ATM machine or with an iPhone, you know, you, you are alerting, you're pinging somewhere. Yeah, right. And so the challenge for CIA officers is to operate in this very busy digital environment. And so let's say that, that they operate.

How is this possible right now?

Well, yeah, because if we could tell CIA officers, well, don't take your, your iPhone, your mobile phone out of the embassy when you were. But if everybody else in the embassy who's not a CIA officer takes it out, the absence of that digital pinging is alerting in and of itself. So again, we've had to find very creative ways to operate within this very dense digital dust environment so that again, they can operate clandestinely securely. And learning more about that digital domain and, and the use of it, both by our foreign intelligence services and adversaries is critically important for the CIA to be able to operate today around the world.

What would you say is the moment that you're most proud of from your work there, the CIA and involved in this process where there was a massive tragedy or stressful event and you and your team really stepped up and prevented something extremely catastrophic from happening?

Well I, you know this, the CIA is frequently criticized for some of the tactics that it employed in the aftermath of 9 11. And people have the misunderstanding that the CIA is not a rogue organization. It doesn't decide, you know, to do things, you know, just on its own whim. That detention and interrogation program that included things like waterboarding were directed by the President of the United States, George W. Bush. They were determined to be lawful by the highest legal body in the executive branch, which is the Office of Legal Counsel in the Department of Justice. So when the CIA receives a duly authorized order and it's determined to be lawful, they carry out those, those programs. Now I find that you know, those programs were unfortunately, you know, reprehensible from the standpoint of, you know, ethical, principled, moral intelligence work. But again I, I, they were lawful at the time. So let's set aside that in terms of the controversy of it. But the CIA in the aftermath of 911 worked day and night around the globe, including with a lot of intelligence services around the world to uncover the Al Qaeda operatives who were poised to carry out the second and third wave of attacks. And there was a very well developed plan by Al Qaeda to carry out a series of aircraft attacks against the west coast of the United States. They're going to be going to be launched out of Southeast Asia. Yeah, the, the funding, the resources were acquired, the operatives were identified, the flights and other things. And it was only because of the tremendous work that CIA did along with other US departments and agencies. But principally it was the CIA that stopped those follow on attacks that could have been quite horrific. The CIA was the one that deployed to Afghanistan first in the aftermath of 9 11. It was CIA boots on the ground before US military boots, CIA officer was killed first in Afghanistan, before any US military was killed there after 9 11. So there are a lot of things that you know, unfortunately for maybe you listeners that I can't go into detail about, but the, the lengths to which the CIA went and I think the very courageous acts that they engaged in. Again some of them I, I think were very unfortunate that you know, were conducted but there's a strong track record of success there.

Is it uh, public knowledge about where Al Qaeda was going to strike on the west coast or were they going for San Francisco and Los Angeles. Was there specific buildings they were trying to target or is this, I'm not.

Sure what has been made public or not. Now I, I know that there was, you know, public acknowledgment of, of this and some of it is, is detailed in previous books, but they, they did have targets picked out and again flight paths that were identified for them. And so it was again because of the work to disrupt that. But there were other types of things as well and attacks that were planned during the Obama administration where they had brought bombs onto aircraft that they were intended to explode over the United States. The infamous December, Christmas Day 2009 when someone by the name of Adamuttalleb, who was a Nigerian national, was aboard a flight that was landing in Detroit and his pants went on fire. And I got a phone call at home and I detail this in the memoir that they didn't know what was happening. Why was this person's pants on fire as they were descending onto Detroit Airport? Well, he tried to detonate an improvised explosive device that had been hidden in his underwear. And there was a bit of a miscue there and so it didn't detonate, it just flamed. And they were planning, this is al Qaeda plan to bring that aircraft down over Detroit with, you know, could have been catastrophic results. And there were other attempts to do the same thing towards Chicago and other efforts. So you know, these are very serious threats and, and thankfully none of them came to fruition the way the 911 tax unfortunately did. But it's because again of the, I think, very, very courageous work that was done by CIA and others.

You worked very closely with Obama, correct?

Yeah, for the entire eight years of the Obama administration. For the first four plus years I served as his Homeland Security and counterterrorism advisor and my office was in the West Wing almost directly below the Oval Office. So I was up and down the stairs seeing him multiple times a day. And then in the second term I was Director of CIA. So yeah, he's just a very, very impressive individual and I have great admiration for him. Again, none of us, you know, are perfect or mistake free. And you know, I think he would look back on, on his eight years and probably, you know, wishes that he would have done some things differently. He talks about that in his, his book. But it, I felt very privileged to work for him as well as for. I worked for six presidents, three Democrats and three Republicans. And although I had disagreements with them as far as policy choices, I had tremendous respect for all of them because I thought that Each one of them really tried to do what they could to protect this country and advance our national security interests. And I guess that's why I've been so maybe outspoken about Donald Trump, because I think he has been such an aberration and such an abnormal incumbent in the Oval Office that he put his interests above the country's interests.

Which president do you feel that you worked with, managed the national crisis the best or were the most inspiring in your mind on how they showed up and responded based on the level of stress and crisis that would come?

Well, I got to know four of them fairly well. The George H.W. bush, Bush 41. I got to know him best, in fact, when I was, you know, after he had left government. But he was a former director of CIA before he became President of the United States. He was CIA director for a year, and he always, always just treasured that experience. And so I would go down to Houston, my wife and I, and we'd have dinner, a lunch with, with President Bush as well, along with Barbara Bush. Just a very, very enjoyable. And he's somebody who, given that he was eight years as vice president and Director of CIA and served in Congress and, you know, ambassador to China. He, he had a tremendous breadth of experience and so dealing with, for example, the, the Gulf War in 1990, 91. He had a very, very measured, as well as experienced approach to dealing with that. I had the privilege of, of being President Bill Clinton's Daily Intelligence Briefer for a year. So I would go down and sit with him in the Oval Office and go through what's called the President's Daily Brief. And he's somebody who really had a very impressive intellect. He could absorb just, you know, massive amounts of information, process it, and had tremendous powers of recall. He could recall things that I had briefed him, you know, months previously, and I had long since forgotten them. So, so very impressive. George W. Bush, I thought he had a lot of integrity, and I think he was misserved by some people around him up to and including his vice president in terms of the decision to go to war with Iraq. But in the aftermath of 9, 11, the way he, I think, rallied this country and the way he spoke out so forcefully and to ensure that people didn't see this as an attack by Islam on the United States and made a very strong point about, you know, this is not to be blamed on, on Muslims or Islam. This is just a, you know, group of depraved terrorists. So, you know, I do think he handled that situation very well. I think he made some policy mistakes afterward. But Barack Obama, I think he very much deserves the moniker no Drama Obama because he always, always was able to receive even the most unnerving information in a very measured and calm manner. And so I just, you know, he had also a, almost a unique ability to see relationships far beyond just the information that, you know, was being presented. He seemed to always be playing like six dimensional chess because he always was looking for, well, if I move my chess piece on this board, how does it affect my positioning on the other board?

Board?

And he always would ask additional questions to understand the implications of a policy decision he might make. So, you know, the presidents that I got to know, they were different, all of them, but they all, again, were impressive and took their national security responsibilities very seriously and also tremendously valued intelligence. That doesn't mean that they, you know, put, you know, confidence in everything that we said. They would challenge the intelligence briefings and me, but they very much appreciated the give and take as well as they appreciated the work and the sacrifices that were made by intelligence officers.

Wow. So you'd say you became the closest with Obama because you were seeing him.

Pretty much all the time on a regular basis. Yeah, late at night, early in the morning, if I had to go up to the private residence or call him and wake him up or. So you get to know people.

Wow. What can you share about the bin Laden scenario, about the strategy behind that, about the information that you would give to Obama about the planning of it? What can you share about that?

Yeah, and I tried to go into some detail in the book because it was a very historical, historic event, I think, for the United States. I think the CIA in the aftermath of 911 really felt a degree, say responsibility for the 911 attacks, but really were crushed that they weren't able to prevent that strike on 9 11. And so therefore we're working diligently over the course of many years and the intelligence business is really one where you really try to find all the different puzzle pieces and you know, you're never going to get all the pieces and you try to understand what those puzzle pieces reveal in terms of the picture. And so in the first Obama term, when Leon Panetta, who was the director of CIA at the time, came into the Oval Office and told us that the CIA believes that they had identified the residents of where a carrier of Obama was staying, which we were told, and we knew that if we were able to identify the carriers that were interacting with Obama, they might be able to lead us then to couriers To Bin Laden.

So it was not Barack Obama.

No, no. Right. It was Bin Laden. Yeah. So it was, it was exciting. But we also knew that there were some real challenges there. And when we were told that this compound was in a place called Abbottabad, which also was the location where basically the equivalent, the Pakistani equivalent of West Point was, that's, that's where they would train the military officers. So we, it made us wonder whether or not the Pakistanis were hiding Bin Laden and giving him protection there. And so it then provoked or, or sparked a, a months long effort to try to get as much insight as possible into to who was at that compound. And we were able then to observe a tall individual who would walk on the compound and just in an exercise fashion, and we called him the pacer. And we didn't know whether that PACER was Bin Laden or not. But Barack Obama wanted us to come up with options in terms of if it was Bin Laden, what would we do?

And so you were able to track this through satellite or through. How are you seeing this?

All of the above, put it that way.

Anything you could find?

Yeah, yeah, there are, you know, we were wanting to, you know, tap into our human source networks. We wanted to use different types of technical collection systems, whether they be ways to observe that area or ways to pick up signals intelligence. So it was again, this is the work of intelligence officers to piece together everything possible to again try to understand what that puzzle picture actually looks like. And so the, you know, options that were considered were to hit that compound with missiles. That was dismissed for a variety of reasons. One is that it would cause a lot of civilian casualties in the area, but also we wouldn't have had confirmation that it was Bin Laden who was there. And so eventually we decided on the assault by the helicopters and the US Special Forces, the US SEALs, Navy SEALs to go in. And it was a very, very intense, nerve wracking operation with great, great secrecy associated with it. And it was, you know, real testament to not just the dedication and work of the intelligence professionals, but the talent, skills and courage of our Special Forces.

So now are you orchestrating this whole thing? Essentially you're planning it with Barack day in and day out for a month or two. You're in the weeds of it.

Well, there were a lot of people. I was the President's counterterrorism advisor, but I worked very closely with Tom Donilon, who was the national security adviser in the White House and with President Obama and Vice President Biden and then Leon Panetta at the CIA and then Bill McRaven, who was admiral, who basically led or oversaw that, that assault. So it was a, basically a trifecta of Department of Defense, the CIA and the White House. And it was designed to try to ensure the utmost secrecy because we knew that bin Laden was not going to stay at that compound forever because Al Qaeda leaders would go to certain locations and then leave after time because they were afraid that their, you know, location was going to be exposed. And so we were working against time. We also though knew that one of the things that Bill McRaven told us, that when we were going, we decided on the helicopter assault that we had to do it according to the lunar cycle because every 28 days you want to make sure that there's going to be the least amount of, of moonlight that the helicopters can travel into Pakistan and the assault can take place. So you have about a three or maybe four day window every 28 days. And so we were trying to time the assault so that it would coincide with the least amount of moonlight. And also the weather.

That's fascinating.

And also conditions on the ground. So, yeah, it was an orchestration.

Fascinating. So it had to be one day essentially with the least amount of light.

Right. Every 28 days, you try to optimize that. And so we decided that it was going to take place on that May 1st day. Wow.

So how many, when you said, this is happening, we are doing this and we're going to be doing this in this fashion. How many months or how many days did it take from, okay, this is happening, this is the way it's going to happen. This is who's going in. How long did that take until it actually happened?

Well, it was in early September that Leon Panetta came into the White House and told us about this compound that might be in fact a location bin Laden. And it wasn't until May 1 that the assault took place. So it was through the fall and winter and then it was about in the February, March time frame when the options were narrowed down and the decisions were made as far as how to go forward with it. So there had to be, or the traffic training that was done, you know, the, the mock up of the facilities so that they could prepare for every eventuality, they had to identify the teams. So it took, you know, a number of months. But those last 60 days in particular March and April were the time when we really then were focused, you know, like a laser on doing it at, at the nearest opportunity, but recognizing that we were not going to have, you know, full confidence that it was bin Laden who was there.

Gosh, that's crazy.

Most nerve wracking time for me was after the assault took place and we were confident that we got bin Laden. They were bringing his body back to Afghanistan by the helicopters. It took 90 minutes for those helicopters to go back into Afghanistan. And by that time the Pakistani Air Defense forces were on alert. The Pakistanis had sent up some aircraft because they knew something was going down in Abbottabad and the local law enforcement, you know, was out there. So I was very concerned that even if we got bin Laden, if one of those helicopters was shot down and we lost a dozen or two dozen of our Navy Seals, it would have been disastrous. And so I, those, that 90 minutes was the longest, you know, in, in my experience working that issue.

And you, I mean, you're in the White House at this time. It's late at night or what, what time is this?

Yeah, well, you know, we started out very early in the morning, I think, got to the White House around 6 o' clock that day and the operation started to go down basically at 2:00 clock Washington time. It was, you know, nighttime over in Pakistan. 2, 3, 30. So between that time they actually got on the coast compound and started the assault. And it wasn't until 7 o' clock at night or 8 o' clock at night that we really had confidence that everybody was back, that it was Bin Laden. And then the rest of the evening we were spent doing the things that we needed to do. So President Obama called President Bush as well as President Clinton. I talked to my Saudi counterpart because one of my roles was to, to tell the Saudis that we got Bin Laden. And although Bin Laden was a Saudi by birth, the Saudis had pulled his citizenship. But my job was to offer to the Saudis the body of Bin Laden. And we thought that they were not going to take it and they declined the opportunity because they didn't want to have to deal with, know, the remains and you know, what did they do with them and martyr. So his remains were disposed according to Islamic rights appropriately. But we all had some after action responsibilities, calling counterparts, talking to Congress and other things. And then President Obama, I think it was a little before, a little after midnight, gave his address to not just the nation but to the world. Wow. So right now in my office, I'm looking up at a photo that was given to me. It's a large photo and it's President Obama, myself, Tom Donilon, who was the national security advisor, Denis McDonough, who was the deputy National Security advisor at the time and President Obama is in his suit and we just went over his remarks that he was going to deliver to the nation and the looks on our faces are much more relaxed and relieved than they were just hours before. And it really was I think the culmination of a years long effort by many, many individuals who were working tirelessly to just bring justice in the aftermath of that 911 attack.

So this is essentially 10 years after the fact of 911 and this is something that you guys have been trying to find him for a decade and figure out how to resolve this essentially. What was that feeling like? Were you guys able to celebrate? Were you guys, did you guys have like sip champagne? Did you have some tea together? Like did you dance? What is that like when you have 10 years of tension built up from moment of completion?

Yeah, well, there's the iconic photo of many of us. We're sitting in not the situation room of the White House, it's in a little anteroom and we're gathered around a table. We were looking up at a screen and you know, Secretary Clinton is, you know, has her hand over mouth but.

Obama's standing up and everyone's sitting down.

Well, Obama's sitting at a chair and he has this intense look and we're all. Because that's just when the operation was going down. But when we got the word Geronimo that, you know, Bin Laden's, you know, was, was, was down, was taken, there was no celebration, no jubilation, no clapping or applause. It was a very somber, sullen, even almost a sacred moment if I can use that term. Wow. Because I think we recognize that we happen to be the, the stewards of this responsibility of ensuring that there was going to be justice in the aftermath of 9 11. And so there was no excitement, there was a sense of accomplishment, but it was a quiet sense. It was, you know, we looked at each other, you know, and people and President was saying, well done. And so we were, we were not congratulating each other so much as just saying, boy, this was so, so important, important. And it was done so well and the teamwork was just so strong that again it was, we just felt that we happened to be in the government at the White House with these roles at the time when all this came together, all these puzzle pieces. And as I talk about in the book that it was about 12:30 or so in the morning when I was going to be leaving, I was going outside to get into the car, but the outside of the West Wing of the White House. It was lighter than usual, brighter, and I could hear noise. And as I'm emerging from the doors of the West Wing, I could hear from the Lafayette park, the square right next to the White House there, the scene of most recent, you know, demonstrations, whatever this, this glow because the. The lights were on and there was chance and people with horns and there was chants of usa, usa, CIA. I know, and I do every time, because it was the first time that day where my emotions got the better of me. Because you're running on adrenaline and you're trying to make sure you do everything that's necessary in order to have mission success and ensure that the President is getting everything that he needs. And then, so coming out and hearing that and hearing Americans in the wee hours of the morning just showing their. Their appreciation and respect for what was done sends chills up my spine.

Gosh, I'm getting emotional. I'm getting like, yes, like goosebumps.

This is.

Ah, man, that's amazing. Where were you? 9, 11? Do you remember?

Obviously, I, I do. I was the deputy executive director of CIA, which is basically the deputy chief operating officer of the agency, you know, a senior official at CIA. And we were in the morning meeting that the executive staff would hold. And right at the end of the meeting, the head of our operations center came in and said, a plane just hit the World Trade Center. There were no more details than that as far as the size of the plane or what serious or what. But we all were looking at each other and we. We knew that Al Qaeda was trying to carry out some attack, including in the homeland. But we didn't have, unfortunately, the. The details of when it was going to happen or the target. And so we ended the meeting and we all went back to our office, and my office was right across the hall from this conference room where the meeting was being held. And so I was looking then at the television that was in the suite of offices there. And I saw the second plane hit the other tower. And I saw the smoke coming out of the tower where the first plane hit. And everybody knew immediately this was Al Qaeda. We're under attack. Wow. And it was, you know, all hands on deck. And so the rest of the day we were busy evacuating the building because we had intelligence that CIA headquarters was on the target list. I remember going through that building and knocking on doors and making sure that we were able to get people out of the building. We, our folks who are working on counterterrorism stayed there, irrespective of the risk. And the threat because there was just a tremendous, tremendous requirement to learn everything about who was on those planes, what else might be planned. And there was gridlock along the streets and roads in the nearby area. And so it just took hours upon hours to get all the non essential CIA officers off of the compound. But I knew then that the next years certainly in the immediate near term was going to be just such a demand on CIA to be able to respond to Al Qaeda.

How do you, I mean you say all hands on deck. This is pre iPhone, this is pre social media, this is, you know, I remember 2011, I'm a freshman in college playing football and early in the morning and I remember seeing that I don't even know what the World Trade center was. You know, I'm a guy from Ohio, I had no clue what World Trade center was. But then it became very obviously very quickly learned what was going down. How do you gather enough information when everyone, it seems to be in chaos, the country, the world, there's no intelligence through phones like there is now. Like what do people do? If you're just like calling at a landline, you're just.

Well the CIA had communication systems that we were able to talk securely to our people overseas to our foreign counterparts and others. And CIA has a presence in many, many, many countries around the globe. And so immediately, as I said, everybody went to sort of battle stations. But one of the things about the CIA and also the US government, as good as we are, we rely so heavily on our foreign counterparts because they're the ones with the eyes and ears in the countries of, of concern and of interest. And so we had to work very, very carefully and closely with them and intensively to ensure that they gave us whatever information they had that could have helped piece together that puzzle, to find out who was responsible, who else might be out there. Because we were very concerned about those follow on attacks and we didn't know if they were going to take place the next day, the next week, a month or whatever. So for quite a while we were on razor's edge and racing against time to do what we could. And that's why CIA was asked to send people immediately out to Afghanistan and to work with the Afghan locals and the tribes and to see whether or not we could find out where Al Qaeda was and the leadership was. And that led then to the US military arriving and the push against the areas where they were holed up in and Tora Bora. And that's when Al Qaeda scattered. And so it became then a years long Effort to try to again find, disrupt, dismantle the Al Qaeda entire organization.

How do you personally deal with self doubt when maybe you don't have all the information or all the data and that's your responsibility and you're saying, here's what we need to do, here's what we think something is, let's take these actions. How do you overcome doubt and insecurity around information that may be accurate or maybe not?

Yeah, it's to be an effective leader.

Really within your organization or with the President or whatever.

It's a big challenge. And the thing is that the CIA has very intensive training programs and tries to ensure that you understand exactly what types of information are important, how to evaluate them, how to determine how to collect more information. But then when you're in these positions, responsibility. And I think one of the important lessons that I learned is to know when you need to make a decision and when you. There's not time to wait for more. But also one of the critical skills, I think, of intelligence officers and policymakers is to try to ensure that you understand the gaps in your knowledge. And I would always tell intelligence officers who are going to go brief down at the White House, whatever is to make sure that the people that they're briefing understand that what you're sharing is not the totality.

It's 20%, it's 10%. Yeah, yeah.

We might only have 10 puzzle pieces and there might be a hundred yet to be found. And so understanding the context and making sure that you appreciate the gaps in your knowledge and the confidence that you have in it. But again, there come a time when, whether you're a president or whether you're a intelligence officer, director of CIA, you know that you have to make a decision based on the knowledge that you have, the advice that you get, recommendations that you are given, and try to do the best job possible with what is available to you. And you know, looking back over my career, there were decisions I made based on the, the data I had, based on the sense that I had of what was the right decision. There were mistakes that were made. Those I'm going to have to live with the rest of my life. And I would always go back and try to say, you know, why did it not go the way we thought? And again learn lessons from them. But again, when you're in these positions, if you wait for totality of knowledge, I see it's the sin of omission. You can make sins of commission, but sins of omission can be as devastating.

Yeah. And how do you personally deal with decisions made that you tried to give your best based on the information and what was available, but ended up in hurting people or causing tragedies in some way? How do you personally deal with that to make sure that you have confidence moving forward in decision making?

Sometimes it shakes your confidence. Certainly it makes you wonder whether or not, you know, not just whether the decisions that you made were wrong, but just, you know, how are you going to be able to make future decisions? Yeah, but again, if you're going to be in these positions of tremendous responsibility, you cannot neglect those responsibilities by avoiding decisions. You have to know when it's, you know, you shouldn't make a certain decision or you don't have to make a decision. But the best intelligence officer, the best government officer, best public servants I've seen take to heart mistakes that they make and really try to ensure that they do their absolute best never, ever to have to make a decision that might entail a, you know, another mistake. Yeah, and fortunately, I think the, the overwhelming number of, of decisions that are made are, are the right ones. Sometimes the, you know, the, there are big strategic decisions, you know, do we invade Iraq? Well, that obviously begets so many more decisions and actions or whatever else. So, you know, there are tactical decisions that are made that have just, you know, have implications, but in a defined time or space. But then the broader geostrategic decisions that are made that have, you know, reverberations, you know, well beyond, you know, that day or that, that that area, was.

There anything that you were against that ended up being a big mistake? In the last 30, 40 years that you were, you were saying, you know, I don't really think we should be doing this as a nation. Whether it was a president's decision or whoever's decision, was there anything you were like, you know, what we could have done without that?

When I was in CIA for, you know, close to 30 years, I saw some things that I very much disagree with. And when I was director, I tried to correct some of those things that I thought were wrong. The CIA was involved in some things like toppling governments in our, in our history, certainly during the Cold War, when there was this rivalry and competition and almost existential tension between the United States and the Soviet Union. And so there was a race to try to gain favor in different parts of the world. What I talk about also in the book is that I am very much an opponent of any type of dissemination of disinformation. I think it's, you know, the propaganda, the putting out falsehoods. And intelligence services, including, you know, U.S. intelligence services, have done that over the years in order to, you know, advance their interests. But first of all, I think it's incompatible with, you know, the values of our country. I think it can be very, very damaging if it's uncovered. But also I think that the United States should really be seen as a beacon of, of truth as opposed to. To false smears just to advance some particular program or project. Also, I do believe strongly that covert action programs, these are programs again authorized by a president of the United States, should never be done just to conceal embarrassing information. I think that the hand of the United States sometimes has to. Has to be hidden overseas. But also I think we need to take more responsibility for the types of things that we do as a way to demonstrate how a country operates in the international environment in a responsible, judicious manner. And so there have been some things that again, the CIA has been involved in over the years, whether it be disinformation or again, toppling regimes. These are things that I think never should take place.

What's your definition of integrity?

Integrity is a combination of things. For me, honesty is at the root of that. But also when I used to, I would administer the oath of office to incoming CIA officers every month in the CIA lobby. And I would underscore the importance of integrity, which brought employees into the agency. We were willing to trust them with the nation's secrets and be part of the CI family. But integrity is the distinction between right and wrong. I don't say good and evil. It's really right and wrong. It's what is that North Star? What are those moral lessons, ethical lessons? What are those principles and values that really do define, I think, what it means to be a good person, a kind person, an honest person, a person who is not going to try to take advantage of. Of others in order to advance their own personal interests. You know, integrity is sort of a package of what a person, how a person defines themselves as well as how they. They treat others. And again, I think honesty, humility, recognition that we are on this planet, I think to try to ensure the betterment of mankind. I just. There is a sense that for me, integrity makes one aware of their responsibilities on this earth and again, carries out their activities, their responsibilities in the most honest, forthright manner.

How do you live with integrity knowing that you're being so deceitful in the business that you're in? It's to essentially not be an integrity in certain practices. But how do you personally keep your Integrity as an individual and make sure you stay on that North Star path.

Yeah, that's, you know, because the end does not justify all the means by any stretch of the imagination. And I think that's one of the reasons. Reasons why I decided to get out of the operations profession, because I could not see myself doing that and deceiving individuals. Now, I think there are some things where the pursuit of just ends and good outcomes can allow for certain types of behaviors and activities that facilitate the accomplishment of those admirable and good goals. But you asked question earlier. How do CIA officers really maintain their integrity in their personal lives and adopt these other sort of Personas and tactics? And sometimes I found that it was hard for individuals, and I found that some people were not living by that division of maintaining that integrity in everything that they do, except for maybe those aspects of their operational responsibilities where at least that initial meeting or initial meetings with somebody and they present themselves as a Department of State officer, a Department of Defense officer. Is that. Is that something that really is unethical? Well, maybe it's not completely truthful, but as long as then the relationship with the individual adheres to certain types of traits or attributes, I think that getting your foot in the door by maybe not being fully transparent is, I guess, you know, maybe I'm rationalizing it.

Sure, sure.

I don't consider it necessarily unprincipled or unprincipled.

I get it. It's finding justice through these actions. I understand that. I'm curious how much. I mean, a lot of this comes to me of understanding identity, because as a former, let's say, for myself, as a former football player, and I see this today, where sometimes guys do wrongful things outside of the court or the field or whatever it may be on the football field, and then they'll do bad things, right? They'll hit their wives or they'll do certain aggressive actions that reflect being on the football field. And I remember as a football player, we were trained to have this identity, to inflict pain, to hit with anger, you know, to do these certain actions and live in this Persona and this identity. And then you take the pads off and you're supposed to be this loving, vulnerable human being. How does the CIA deal with identity and psychology training in terms of making. Because you've got to play the part all in and then play a different part. That's got to be challenging, right, Psychologically, emotionally, for some people.

Yeah, I think that's a big, big question for most everybody in the world. You're Right. I played a lot of sports as well. And so much depends on leadership and the role modeling that parents provide, teachers provide, coaches provide. I can remember, you know, played high school basketball, and there was a team that we played, and they were, you know, they were higher ranked than we were. And their players, you know, would take every opportunity if the ref wasn't looking, you know, grab the shirt, give the elbow, whatever, and just resort to any tactic in order to win. And just watching them and watching the coach with them, it was almost encouraging it. And so some people have this approach of win at all costs, and this inculcates in individuals then this attitude and approach to life that goes beyond the football field or the basketball court. It's how they. They work in. In business or in whatever profession they are or cheat in school. And so I think it's. It's. We have to get back to, you know, having, you know, maybe a stronger educational system.

Yeah.

And to have. And it starts at a very early age to, again, try to distinguish between right and wrong. Now, sometimes the adrenaline gets going and, you know, now when I, you know, you see a, you know, team score a touchdown, my goodness, it's a, you know, a rally in the end zone, you know, years ago, they would catch, you know, throw the ball down or whatever and go and just, you know, but. And so the, the culture, I think, has changed a lot. But I do think having some real open and honest discussions about what is appropriate, what is, is not. But that role modeling, walking the talk. One of the things I realized when I was at CIA as director, everybody was watching what I did, listening to what I said, and I had to always be very aware that I wasn't sending any unintentional signals or the way I said something was received in a way that it wasn't intended. Because what person does at the top, what a coach says or what a coach does really does have resonance then with the members of the team. So I do think it's, you know, for CIA officers, for intelligence officers, making sure they understand exactly what their obligations are on the professional front, on the personal front. What does it mean to have professional and personal integrity? What are the boundaries within which one has to work? And one of the challenges for CIA offices, I think, is just because something is. Is lawful does not mean that it's ethical or principled, such as the example of the Detention Interrogation Program. And so what I tried to do when I was at CIA is to first of all, ensure some. Everything we do is lawful. But then is it Consistent with the values that I think that need to, you know, the CIA needs to embody. Is it consistent with the, the ethics and principles of, of what the United States and the premier intelligence agency should in fact, be engaged in? And everybody's going to have their own individual North Star that has been shaped throughout the course of their life. But I think that if we're, we go back to a, you know, maybe just a better sense of, you know, there is right and wrong, but unfortunately, too many people opt for the wrong, including politicians today who role model for especially our young Americans, the deceit, dishonesty, the lack of integrity, the lack of decency. It's just, unfortunately, it's being emulated far and wide, which is unfortunate.

What would you say are some practical things that you're allowed to share of understanding if someone's lying or not? Is there any tips you could give that are, that are common practice that you can see? You know what, there's some, there's some things you could really find out about a person when they do these things or if they're telling a lot.

Well, I think, you know, people will pick up on, you know, some discomfort in terms of how one, you know, moves or handles themselves. You know, when, when somebody's accounting of, of events or a story changes, that's usually a good indication. And so you'll find that people who, you know, try to get out of, you know, culpability of something, and they'll give one version of what happened, and then, you know, the next version will be, you know, either slightly different or it's telling the truth. Usually you, you know, I think it's imprinted in your brain, you know, the, the events as you remember them, as opposed to trying to misrepresent the facts. And so there are some things that I think, you know, the CIA officers will try to evaluate and detect when they're dealing with potential asset or called a developmental or a foreign national of interest. And again, the stories that people weave sometimes in give them, give them, give them away pretty quickly.

I'm curious, what was the biggest challenge you had to overcome personally from your years working at the CIA? Was it a level of learning how to be a better leader? Was it building confidence? Was it a certain skill you had to develop? What was the biggest challenge you were faced when you started that you, that you really overcame and grew into in a positive way that was no longer a challenge for you like it was previously?

I think it's probably all the above. I learned some really painful lessons, you know, the first time I had a management role at CIA, I had no training for it whatsoever. And all of a sudden, you know, I was an analyst in a. It was called a branch of, you know, eight or nine people. And a lot of them were older than me and even more senior than me. But I became their branch chief one day, and I made a lot of mistakes, and it was very painful, and I very much regret it. But it was through those experiences that I was able then to develop, I think, some of the better leadership and management techniques that I needed to acquire.

What were some of those mistakes that you wish you.

Well, I was rather officious in terms of almost dictating to people. One of my responsibilities was to review papers that people would write, and so I would rewrite them the way I would write them.

Oh, man.

And I needed to understand that we all have our own, not just strengths and weaknesses, but we all have our different types of approaches and styles.

Yes.

And I needed to understand, respect, and be able to leverage, you know, the different styles and also engage more. I was a pretty strong introvert, you know, I think I still am, except when I'm speaking out about some politicians. And so I needed to sit down, talk with people, and then listen. And I think I was a little bit too much of a loner. And so over the course of my career, I was fortunate. I was able to work for some very good people who taught me some lessons. In fact, when I was deputy executive director, the executive director, his name was Buzzy Krongard. He was from the banking industry. He came into CIA. He has a real management knack. And when he learned that I was going to be his deputy, the first thing he said to me, he goes, john, I want you to know that you can make a mistake. I said, well, that's kind of interesting guidance. He said, now, there's some caveats to that. One is, I want you to make sure that you don't make the same mistake twice, because that shows you're not a learning person. So any mistake you make, you have to learn from it. He goes, and secondly, if there is a decision that you have to make, that is the equivalent of a shot. If it goes wrong, it's a shot below the waterline. He's a former Marine, so there's an article reference there. He said, you really need to raise it up the chain of command. You need to bring other people into that. He said, this agency is big and strong. It can take a lot of shots above the waterline. But if it's a shot that's going to be near the waterline or below the waterline. That's not something that you should do on your own. And he said that he evaluated good leaders and managers of those who know what actions they should take. He said, I don't want you to be afraid to make decisions because that's what you're here for, to make the right decisions in your position. He said, so the good managers and good leaders are the ones who know the actions, decisions they should make. And then the actions and decisions they need to raise up the chain of command or that they need to bring other people into that discussion before a decision is made. And he said, understanding that is really, I think, the key to good leadership. And so it was something that was impressed upon me. And I think that the course of my subsequent career I had the same approach and I used that, those same talking points with the people that worked for me. And I think your sports background, you know, you understand that. And it's not the team with the hot shooter that wins the championships. It's the team that's able to really work well together that is so, so critically important. And so I learned.

How do you develop teamwork with non superstars?

Sometimes I think it's a lot easier to develop teamwork with non superstars because then there is mutual dependence. And it's one of the things that in CIA people were asking me when I would swear them into office, what is it that is the key to success at the Agency? I said, you became director. What was it? I said, well, I just happened to become director, but it also shows that anybody can. There's obviously humility, integrity, all those things. But I said, the people I saw flame out in the agency who I thought had all the talent that they needed were the ones who were really that individual operator, the people that kept information from others, the people who tried to promote themselves at meetings, the individuals who didn't recognize that one of the real objectives of the agency is to have people empower one another. What can you do to help empower the work of other CIA officers? And what can others do to empower you? It's that interactive system that really is going to define the success of the organization because you don't want to have a bunch of insular components. That's why when I was at the Agency, I re reorganized the agency to better integrate the analysts and the operators and the scientists, technologists, open source specialists, whatever else. To me, the real secret of success in dealing with future problems is better integration of capabilities and efforts so that you have an awareness of what others can do, what their capabilities are, what their tools are, what their authorities are. And with that awareness, then you can better plug and play in order to have a more sort of a symbiotic, you know, relationship between them. So, and in a team, and I played on a lot of, I don't say mediocre teams, but teams that were. That gelled well, that even though we might have only had a 500 record at times, you know, it was above what we were individually capable of because we were operated as a team. And that, again, depends on leadership. You know, the tone the coach sets, the signal sent, the reward systems, as well as the individuals. You can have somebody be the leader of the team or the captain of the team who are not going to be the hotshot, who are not going to be the star. They're the ones who are going to motivate. They're the ones who are going to continue to set by example. And to me, that's the difference between success and failure of any organization or enterprise. So that team component, but again, mutual interdependence, that recognition that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts is really so important. Important. I didn't recognize that when I was an early manager, a leader at the agency. I had to learn that over time, that I had to rely more on other individuals, that is, and people who think that they're the best, the smartest, the brightest, you know, wisest, they are failing to recognize the reality of the. Of the environment.

We're talking about leadership. You worked with six of the biggest leaders in the country. Do you think that the presidents, when they're voted in and they're chosen, do you think they are already great leaders? Or do you think they become great through the mistakes and adversity and the challenges that they face in their presidency?

No, I don't think they're born great leaders. I think some of them have some innate traits and inclinations that allow them to develop into very good leaders. You know, when I think about members of Congress, either in the Senate and the House, you know, they're legislators. You know, they may have a staff that they have to oversee, but they don't really lead, you know, organizations or enterprises, whatever. I think there are certain skills that are attached to that. You know, you look at Donald Trump, he was the head CEO of a family organization. You know, the people basically snap to. I don't think he developed any real leadership skills there, but I saw that the presidents That I got to know well, while they were President Bill Clinton to degree, because I was his daily briefer. But then Bush and then certainly Obama. I saw them over the course of their eight year terms, which each of them served, really mature in terms of their understanding of the policy challenges they had to deal with. They attain greater knowledge. And with greater knowledge, I think you are able to be a wiser leader. And so I do think that all of them developed certain types of traits and characteristics, particularly maybe in their second terms. I don't, I think if George Bush's decision to invade Iraq in 2003, I don't think he would have made that decision in his second term, really, because I think he would have again developed a better sense of what the implications of that decision were going to be. But in the aftermath of 9, 11 and Afghanistan, whatever else, I think he just was brought along in that, that stream of, you know, recommendations.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And a lot of recommendations that, you know, people who wanted to invade Iraq, irrespective of the intelligence, you know, were determined to pursue. So I, and, and with Barack Obama, I think he entered the Oval Office with very strong idealistic visions and as well as goals. And I think he, he maintained, maintained his idealism, but also it was leavened significantly by the experiences that he had, the practical realities of dealing with these very, very difficult issues both domestically and internationally, understanding better what is possible and doable and trying to optimize those issues and those outcomes that he felt he could achieve and recognizing that there were some issues here that were basically beyond the, the solution that he in fact favored. And, and I do think that. And same thing, when I was CIA director for close to four years, I, I came to realize that there were some things that I, I felt very strongly about that needed to be done. But having a better sense of the, the ecosystem, if you will, that you operate within gives you a better sense of what's achievable, what's important, and what you consider to be your priorities.

Yeah, this is fascinating. Where do you think we would be as a country if we didn't invade Iraq?

Oh, well, I think that first of all, the Middle east would be so radically different because it was the invasion of Iraq and then the implosion of Iraq that then allowed isis, the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, to, to grow and to, you know, establish a caliphate or whatever and just ravage Iraq and Syria. And so it has had tremendous, tremendous impact on the region as a whole. I'm not saying that, you know, we wouldn't have had challenges and issues with Saddam Hussein, who was a ruthless, bloody, authoritarian leader, without a doubt. But the invasion of Iraq set off a chain of events that just had, you know, tremendous implications, you know, throughout the, the region as a, as a country. I think the invasion of Iraq really did distract quite a bit from our effort in Afghanistan because then we had this two front, you know, war going on. And unfortunately we're, you know, still in Afghanistan after, you know, 18, 19 years. And I do think that we need to maintain some presence there. But I do think Iraq and Afghanistan, two very hot battlefields going on simultaneously, really did SAP our ability to deal with either one of those issues effectively. But also the United States military obviously is the best military in the world and we certainly can win wars. Prevailing over counterinsurgencies is different, but we certainly can trounce any military that is out there. But we as a government, as a country, we do not do a good job of following a military victory with effective programs, assistance and development. I'm not talking about regime building, I'm talking about, it's easy to destruct, it's much harder to construct, and unfortunately, we don't have, I think, the capabilities, the approach, the experience that allows us to develop war torn countries, certainly in the Middle East, South Asia, it was much different than repairing the damage of World War II in post World War II Europe and Japan. Those were basically different types of societies. But in the tribe of the authoritarian countries and basically largely rural areas, without the development of political institutions and experiences, it's much more difficult to seize a victory from, from a military conquest.

What would you say are the three common principles? Leadership qualities that all the presidents you worked with had? What were those three things they all kind of developed that were similar, that made them effective in leading in the White House and also effective in making decisions and being in the position they were in.

I would say professional integrity. Bill Clinton is a little bit of a different example because of, you know, his personal problems and issues there. And people will say, well, he didn't have personal integrity. Well, it's up to people to make that subjective judgment. But I think all of them had that professional integrity. They took their responsibilities very seriously. They always tried to decide on a policy course, both domestically and internationally, that they believed was in the best interest of the country, not in the best interests of their party, nor in their own personal interests. So I do think that professional integrity was important. Secondly, at least in the issues that I dealt with them. I felt that again, on a professional plane and their presidential responsibilities. They try to be as honest as possible, and it goes along with integrity. But I do think being as honest with the American people in particular, and also just trying to ensure that Americans understood what was happening, I do think to varying degrees, they, they all tried to do that. Third, they all recognized that the United States strength on the global stage really depends heavily on the strength of our alliances and partnerships and that we really need to make sure that we take care of those relationships and not take them for granted. And that's important because over the last 75 years, you know, the United States has been the, the leader of the free world. And it's because of the credibility, I think, that we have had and the recognition on the part of a lot of countries around the world that they depend on that US Leadership role. And I do think all those, those presidents understood it. They had an appreciation of history and the, the role that the U.S. played. And then finally I, I think it is that they believe strongly that the United States has to play that leadership role on the global stage. I believe in American exceptionalism, not because we're smarter or brighter or better looking than anybody else. We have had exceptional good fortune. Look at this large, wonderful country with bountiful natural resources, arable land, navigable rivers, large sea coasts, the mountain, the world's melting pot. We have all of those features of success. No other country has that. And given those exceptional good fortune, we have exceptional responsibilities. That's why the mantra of America first, America first has been so shrill on the ears of people around the globe and people who I still stay in touch with overseas. They say, here's the United States using its muscularity, using all of its exceptional advantages to advantage itself at the cost of others. And I do believe that Presidents Clinton and Bush and Obama and before them, you know, President Bush 41 and Reagan and Carter and Ford and all the others, they really did understand that the United States has this very, very important global responsibility, that of course we have to take care of our own country and our own people. But that doesn't mean we do it at the expense of the rest of the world. And that the more the United States is seen as being an advocate for the growth and the prosperity of the world, I think the more in favor we will be and the better off we will be as well. I do think that those presidents had, again, that integrity, really tried to be honest, recognize the importance of the relationships the United States has around the world, and then also recognize that the United States has this very unique and important Global role, leadership role that we must play.

Yeah, I think it was Spider man that said with great power comes great responsibility. And we have a lot of power and I think we have a lot of responsibility to live in the world as well. I want to keep going, but I want to be respectful of your time and I have a couple final questions for you. This is called the three truths question. I ask all my guests at the end. So I'd like you to imagine a hypothetical scenario that it's your last day on earth many, many years from now and you have lived the exact life you want to live and accomplished everything else you want to accomplish. But for whatever reason, all of your material, your content, this interview, this book, it has to go with you to the next point place you go. So no one has access to your written words, your audio, your videos anymore. But you get to leave behind a piece of paper that has three things you know to be true or your three greatest lessons that you've learned in your life that you would leave behind for the world as all they would have to kind of remember you by. I call it the three Truths. What would you say are your three truths?

My three truths about myself.

Three truths for the world, three lessons that you want to leave behind.

Oh boy, I should have prepared for this. We are all imperfect beings, but that does not mean that we shouldn't strive for perfection. Recognize that there is so much about life we don't know and maybe much of it is unknowable, but we should strive to understand as much as we can about who we are, why we're here and what it all means. Third is to remember that we all are all individual beings, part of a larger global collective and that we each have a responsibility to do something during our short and fleeting lifetimes that benefits mankind in some way. I don't know if they're truths, but they're things that lessons I think about.

That's great. What, as someone who is now retired, what is the impact you want to have on the world moving forward beyond this book, which I want people to get because we barely scratched the surface on a lot of the stories in here and the lessons and incredible eye opening principles that you've, you've learned through your years of working with these presidents and in the CIA. But I want people to get this book, My Fight Against America's Enemies at Home and Abroad Undaunted. So make sure you check this out. But what is it you want to create moving forward?

Well, it's one of the reasons why I decided to write a memoir which was to provide a glimpse into what it means to work in the world of intelligence and national security and to try to encourage young Americans to seriously consider some type of public service during their lifetime. Whether it's intelligence or law enforcement, a diplomatic corps or even local communities. Doesn't have to be the federal government, but this is a great big, wonderful country. I am the son of an immigrant. My father emigrated from Ireland when he was 28 years old in 1948. And always instilled in me and my brother and my sister just how special it was to be an American citizen. And he said, never, ever take it for granted. He said millions upon millions of people over the years have striven at great cost and sacrifice to come to the United States the way he did. Because it is the land of opportunity. It is the land that. Where dreams are made. And that he said, too often Americans who are born here really take for granted all of the exceptional, exceptional good fortune that we have. And he said, it's important to be able to give back to this great country of ours. And so I've tried to spend time. I'm affiliated with my two alma maters, Fordham University in New York and the University of Texas at Austin. I am a distinguished fellow and I talk to a lot of students, participate in seminars and give them some of my share my experiences about what life was like and working in the government. Because what I really wanted to do was to share the great honor that I had through the course of 33 plus years and to tell them that despite what you might, you know, hear about, and despite what you hear in Washington in terms of the denigration and disparagement of intelligence and law enforcement and the deep state, unfortunately we live in this hyper partisan, very politicized, very acrimonious environment right now. But there are important things that we need to preserve about this country. And there are some real significant challenges that are on the horizon. And we need to, I think, work more harmoniously to try to address the challenges that range from terrorism to proliferation to climate change to cyber challenges, you name it. And we need to tap into this great melting pot of ours so that the best and brightest really do contribute in some way to form a more perfect union. And so I just am trying to spend as much time as I can sharing my experiences. My, my national security career is be in my rearview mirror.

Yeah.

But to the extent that you know, this, this book helps to again, spark maybe an interest. I'd like to write some more. Being more I guess analytical about some of the challenges that lie ahead and just again, to share my experiences as I can.

You mentioned the deep state. This is something I don't really know much about because I've just heard about it.

I've never seen it.

But this is a. What is this conspiracy theory that the elite or the, the richest in the world are influencing government in certain ways and making decisions? Is that essentially the.

Yeah, it depends on one's perspective of, you know, how they view the deep state. But they think that there's this, you know, very large cabal of folks, you know, in intelligence and, and law enforcement, other things that operate clandestinely to try to shape world events and national developments. And despite the best efforts of the politicians and the leaders who are trying to undercut the deep state. I worked in government for over 30 years. I never encountered a deep state again. I think it's just some people who are just trying to, you know, make a point about, you know, people in the government who are operating clandestinely, roguishly against the veterans of the United States. And it is just a flat out lie.

Wow, there you go. You heard it here then. If someone wanted to become the President of the United States, let's say in the next 15, 20 years, or someone's thinking about it one day, I want to become the president. What would you say are two to three things. They should develop as a leader now to prepare themselves to win the presidency and then be a great leader in their term.

Try to acquire as much knowledge as possible about what's going on in the country and the world. If you don't have that knowledge again of current events, of history, of the law, you won't understand the nature of the challenges as well as the opportunities that are out there. Secondly, I have become very jaded about partisan politics because I think that party loyalties too often take precedence over integrity and what people should be doing. I would like to think that a future president of the United States, woman to man, whatever will, will emerge from a non partisan environment from the standpoint of one of the two traditional political parties. Interesting, because I think, you know, we always want a president to be a president of all, not of a president of a party or a particular constituent base. And I do think that governance in the 21st century is really difficult. And I think we have to be thinking about new models for leadership and the qualities of leadership. And I do think having less partisanship, I understand it's a feature of the political landscape and partisans can be very healthy. But leadership really requires one to transcend partisanship and frequently it's difficult. But I also do think that a future president really needs to be non ideological and because of learning more about the world and having a much more pragmatic and practical understanding that the world is a complex, complicated place, that there are no simple solutions to difficult problems, despite the rhetorical flourishes of a lot of politicians. That these are tough, tough issues that really, really require a better understanding of the nature of the problems, but also a sense that we can find ways to maybe compromise. And then finally the very, very unfortunate polarization that exists within this country. I really hope that we're going to have more leaders who are not going to be on either end of that political spectrum, the left or the right. I have no tolerance for the ideologues out there because they wear blinders and they view the world through a very myopic prism that they don't have an open mind for how their views might be a bit off. So I do hope that. And then finally, I guess I like to think that future presidents are going to have the requisite humility, understanding what the limits of their, of their knowledge as well as their capabilities are, and that they're going to rely on a lot of other people in order to be a successful and effective president.

Yeah, build a great team around you because you're not going to have all the answers. Obviously.

That's how sports teams do it.

Exactly. John, I really acknowledge you for showing up the way you do right now after serving for so many years. I think it was 33 years in the CIA.

You served? Yeah, 29 and a half or so NCIA and another four plus at the White House as President Obama's assistant.

So I acknowledge you for showing up for as long as you did under the extreme amounts of stress and anxiety and uncertainty and unsureness of decision making at times and potential regrets and mistakes and weight that you might have had to carry for different things. I really acknowledge you for leading with a humble heart and serving at this stage of your life in a way to really help educate us and reflect back on lessons learned and how we can become better as human beings and as a country and in the world, and acknowledge you for showing up the way you're showing up now. It's really inspiring to witness and see what's possible as someone leading at a high level in government area. So I really acknowledge you for that and I'm excited for people to get this book, tons of great stories, lessons and things that you'll really want to learn about. If you want to gather information and become a better leader, you've got to gather information about the past. And this has a lot of that information. So make sure you check out this book. I have one final question for you.

The toughest is usually reserved for life.

It should be easy, I think, for you. But before I ask it, make sure people follow you on Twitter. You're John Brennan over there. Is there anywhere else we can support you, follow you, engage with you online?

No. I pop up here and there in different newscasts and other types of things. And, you know, I don't know what the next chapter of my life is going to fully involve. But, you know, I've tried to take a step back a little bit from Twitter also. I didn't want to see the Twitter sphere to die. Donald Trump. And that's why I engaged in. In a rather, you know, strident way at times, that much to my. My critics dismay and anger. But there's a. I'm originally from Jersey, so, you know, there you go. The Jersey comes out as well as, you know, my Irishness comes out. And I'd like to think that people never have to guess where I stand on issues. And that's why I have been, you know, criticized from all ends of the political spectrum just fine.

Sure, there you go. Well, they can follow you there if you ever get back on on a consistent basis. But the final question is, what is your definition of greatness?

Oh, my definition of greatness. Accomplishing something that is beneficial to more than yourself, to. To making a positive difference, to taking full advantage of. Of one's life to do something productive, something helpful, something important, something profound, something memorable in a good sense, making a contribution to humankind. And sometimes it can be something that is, you know, globally known and understood. But some things that are known only to a relatively few but unknown people can achieve greatness. It doesn't require a very large public profile. Sometimes people seize opportunities that come to them. They rise to the occasion. And so, again, greatness to me just means that it's something meaningful that someone is able to achieve and accomplish. Again, something that affects more than themselves.

Yeah, that's beautiful, John. I really appreciate you for coming on. I want people to get the book on Dante. Check this out. And thank you so much for your service, your leadership, and for your humility. Again, I really appreciate it.

Thank you, Louis. I really enjoyed the conversation. Best wishes to you and to all your listeners.

My friend, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to this episode. If you enjoyed this content with John Brennan. Make sure to check out his book and make sure to share this link to a friend that you think would be inspired. Spread the message of greatness forward lewishouse.com 10 forward or just copy and paste this link and share with your friends on social media. Make sure to tag me Lewis Howes and let me know what you thought of it. Also, we've got the full video over@YouTube.com Lewishouse if you want to subscribe over on YouTube. A million strong over there and it's growing rapidly. We've got incredible content from over the years, so make sure to check out some of the YouTube stuff as well. And click that subscribe button right now on Apple Podcast if you enjoyed this because that will help us reach more people on Apple, which is the biggest audience we draw from currently. So if you enjoyed this, if you're a fan of the show, if you're a fan of helping others, then click on that subscribe button and leave a rating and review right now. It really helps us spread the word so we can continue to reach and interview more powerful people with greater wisdom to share. If you enjoy inspiration and you and you want to be motivated and inspired on a weekly basis, then you can text me the Word Podcast right now to my number, 614-350-3960. I send out weekly inspirational messages over to your phone right there. So just text the word podcast to 614-350-3960 and I want to leave you with this inspiring quote from Marcus Aurelius who said, waste no more more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one. And I want to remind you if no one's told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. My friend. I'm so grateful for you for showing up day in and day out to make your life better and the lives of people around you better. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.