1061 Rich Roll: Use Your Flaws for Good, Gain Confidence & Achieve Your Goals

This is episode number 1061 with best-selling author Rich Roll.

It's not about quitting your job. You don't even have to take a risk. Like if you have this dream that you've been harboring for a decade, but you haven't done anything about it, what's the least risky thing that you could do to actually breathe a little bit of life into it?

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.

And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Aristotle said, We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is not an act but a habit. And Andrew Carnegie said, if you want to be happy, set a goal that commands your thoughts liberates your energy and inspires your hopes. I'm excited because my guest today is my good friend Rich Roll, who I've known for many years. And at age 40, after years of struggling with drugs, alcohol and unhealthy living, Rich dedicated his diet to plants in his body to purposeful action. Today, he is a vegan Ultra endurance athlete and a full-time Wellness and plant-based nutrition husband, father of four, and an inspiration to people worldwide as a transformational example of courage and healthy living. He's got some amazing programs, books, and everything else over at his site. But in this episode, we discuss how to set goals and consistently live them out. The Truth About Riches Personal Growth Journey, how to use an addictive personality for positive rewards, what it takes to have a healthy relationship, how to be more mindful about the information we take in the four things we can do to gain more confidence today and so much more. And if you are looking to get clear on your goals and you want to accomplish them this year, then make sure to also check out our new program, the Greatness Coaching Mastermind Experience. It's your high performance system for 2021 and beyond. It includes coaching, accountability, community, and my new Greatness Playbook, where you get to reflect, plan, and create goals around your dreams and passions for life. If you're interested, make sure to go lewis-howes.com/mycoach to learn more and apply today. And while you're listening to this episode, if something sparks your interest, if it inspires you in any way, then make sure to share it with someone you think in your life should hear this and would be inspired by this as well. Lewis-howes.com/1061. You can send out that link or you can copy and paste the link wherever you're listening to this. And if this is your first time here or you haven't yet subscribed yet, make sure to go to Apple Podcast and click on that subscribe button right now as well as leave us a rating and review because every time we get someone new to subscribe or leave a review, it helps us spread the message of greatness to more people. So by doing that, you'll be helping more people today to improve their life. Okay, in just a moment, the one and only Rich Roll.

Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness Podcast. I got my man Rich Roll in the house. Good to see you, brother.

Good to see you. Thanks for having me.

It's been a while.

Again.

I know it's been a while since I've seen you. Probably a year and a half maybe or?

Probably something like that. Yeah, it has been a while.

It's been a while. I don't feel like I've seen really anyone in the last year.

I know. This is my social outlet, either hosting podcasts or this is the first time I've been a guest in person on a podcast in a long time. I mean, I'm doing my show like yourself. A lot of it is on Zoom, but I have been able to do some in person and that's really like the only social connection that I get outside of my family. Family, right. You know, interacting with the cashier at the grocery store. Basically. It's crazy.

I feel like the world needs more human connection to make us happier. I just feel like it's a challenge if we can't cultivate that more. So hopefully we can figure something out whether we're in this pandemic longer or we're not. Hopefully we can figure out a way to be connected more than just over the computer.

Well, human connection is fundamental to being happy. And I think in general, pre-pandemic, we're suffering in an epidemic of lack of connection. And now we're in a moment where we're told that human connection is unhealthy and frightening. So it's only exacerbating a precondition that was already bad. And as dangerous and as deadly and toxic as the coronavirus is, I think underappreciated is the toll that all of this isolation is taking on millions of human beings all across the world.

Yeah, and I feel for parents with younger kids, I mean you've got kids in their teens, but I feel for parents with kids under 12, like in elementary school, middle school, those are very developmental years of connection and human interaction with peers that I feel like that's got to be very challenging for parents.

Yeah.

I mean, for all parents, but if parents of that ages, kids has got to be tough.

Yeah. I mean, certainly developmentally, it's so important as a young child. And like you said, I have two teenage daughters and I have two older boys in their 20s. And, you know, the teenage girls, it's been really difficult. The older one is very social and being unable to connect with her friends and be integrated with her social circle has been very deleterious to her health. Now, luckily there are technological tools. They're in touch with each other all day long. We gotta use what we can, I suppose. So thank God there are things like Zoom and FaceTime and Skype and the telephone to keep us connected. Can you imagine enduring this without those tools and how much more difficult that might have been?

Do you think it'd be scarier or more fear without technology or less fearful? If we were just reading newspapers and seeing what was on TV but didn't have access to the other technology?

I mean, that's a great question. Certainly social media foments people's fears, and I think has ratcheted up just how emotionally triggered we all are, irrespective of whatever tribe we subscribe to. We can go down the whole rabbit hole on social media's impact on the current cultural and political divide, but it's deeply concerning to me to kind of canvas how we're navigating really important issues. And the inability for us to communicate effectively and in a healthy way, I think, is very damaging to the fabric of our United States. And it's going to be interesting how this plays out in the future, but I'm concerned about it.

Yeah.

I'm curious, a lot of people know your story about how you became overweight, you couldn't walk up the stairs without having to catch your breath, you were eating junk food all the time, and you made a decision to change your life and really go down this path of veganism, eating more mindfully, training like a machine for ultra marathons, things like that. We've interviewed a lot of the same people or people in the same space. I'm curious, what do you think is the reason why most people give up on their goals or will never achieve their goals because you were at a point where things got bad and you made a decision to shift and create goals and then stuck to them over decades. Why do you think most people create a goal and then they can't achieve them?

I think the answer to that is complicated. I can say just based on my own experience that achieving a goal is a lot easier when you're in a lot of pain.

And.

The pain that you're in exceeds the fear of the unknown. You know what I mean? You're in so much pain that you're willing to almost do anything to get out of it.

And that's where you were at?

That's when you're in a great place to change. So I always say to people that are going through a hard time, like try to view it as an opportunity. Like what is the lesson that you're here that you're meant to be learning right now and try to leverage the potential energy that's packed into that pain to, you know, transform yourself. Ironically, you know, change is always available to all of us in every moment, right? We don't have to be in pain in order to change. It's just that it's difficult. You know, it's a lot harder to do it that way in terms of people setting goals and being unable to achieve them. you know, I think that's a function of a couple things. I mean, first of all, have you set the right goal for yourself? Like, if that goal isn't getting you excited, then perhaps it's not as aligned with your innate values as you might have suspected that it was. So I think a lot of people set goals without having done enough interior work to really understand themselves to you know, appreciate what might be the right goal for them to set. So I think that's one thing. So if it's not the right goal.

It'S probably going to be impossible to achieve it because your life is not designed to achieve that. That's not what you're meant for. It's not what you're meant for.

And perhaps it's just not, you know, there's something inside of you that maybe you're not even aware of that is misaligned with that. Like if somebody comes to me and says, I want to do an Ironman or I want to run a marathon, like we were talking before the podcast, you want to run a marathon. usually my first question to people like that is why? What is it that you're trying to learn? How is that process going to lead to your growth? If they can answer that question and there's clarity around why this is important and what this will ultimately do in terms of moving their life path forward, then that's great. But if they're like, It sounds cool, or I just woke up one day and decided, then Is that really a goal that's going to have staying power? Because that morning is going to arrive when it's cold and rainy out.

You're not going to want to go.

And the calendar says you got to do this today and you're not going to want to do it. And that's where goals, the rubber meets the road in terms of whether you're actually going to follow through on this commitment that you made to yourself or you're going to flake and look for the escape hatch.

Yeah, the out. I'll just sleep in this morning, I'll do it tomorrow, I'll do it later, whatever it may be. Okay, so that's the first thing you said, the first part why people don't achieve goals. Was there another part, another reason? They don't have the right goal in mind, aligned with their values.

Yeah.

I think that achieving goals is hard.

It's like, just in general.

The truth is, a lot of people don't appreciate the fact that doing anything exceptional requires a lot of work, right? And it requires that anonymous work that you do when no one's looking that doesn't, you know, trend on Instagram or Twitter. And, and, you know, when the going gets tough and you're conflicted over what it is that you're going to do on that day, it's easy to cave in. And so there's a level of, like, conviction and commitment to self that's required that I think you develop over time with some level of resilience and the persistence that comes with that. But if you don't appreciate that doing something hard is going to test you and is going to compel you to get out of your comfort zone, then you're going to struggle.

Yeah.

I really believe that people who are living a good life have the biggest challenge because things are already going good enough. Everything is okay, it's good. You're not required to make enough effort to get to the next level. And it's almost like we need something horrible to be happening or something really struggling. We might be doing well in our finances, but 300 pounds overweight and sick and feeling bad in order for us to finally say, wait a minute, I need to change this one thing. I talk about this a lot on the show that I feel like I wish we could learn a way to improve our life when things are okay or when things are a little less than okay. But most of the time it takes something drastic, a near-death experience for ourself, an injury, a sickness, someone dying close to us, a bankruptcy, a divorce, a heartache, and a breakup. Why do you think it's so hard for us to change and improve our life when things are good or a little less than good?

Well, I think that we delude ourselves into thinking when things are good, we delude ourselves into thinking they're always going to be good. And we also delude ourselves into believing that our lives are static in that regard. And the truth is, is that everything is always in flux. That flux may be imperceptible in the moment, but in truth, and I say this all the time, every thought that you entertain, every word that comes out of your mouth, every interaction that you have with another human being, every reaction that you have to whatever stimulus is coming your way is either moving you forward in your life towards your aspirations or some level of self-actualization or you're regressing back to some former, less evolved version of yourself. And the more you can kind of be present with that and appreciate that truth, then you realize that that as good as your life may be, there's always growth to be had. And all of us, no matter who you are, have blind spots. You may think you're doing great in all these areas, but you need people in your life who are giving you feedback saying, yeah, I know you think that you're rocking it out over here, but you're kind of off base on this other thing. I think we all need a council of elders or a board of advisors who are willing to be honest with us to say, Look, you're not seeing this over here, you need to redirect. And then you're able to make those adjustments without having to reap the consequences of some-- Hesitation. Right, because you're kind of, you know, jigging and jigging, you know, along the way and course correcting as you go as opposed to hitting a wall and then going, Holy, like I thought I was good. Now, only now do I realize that, you know, I've been doing all these things all along that led to this point. We're our own worst enemies when it comes to objectively assessing where we're at.

Ourselves.

Yeah.

We're horrible at it. We should be asking our friends and family and peers all the time, Hey, where do you think I can improve? What am I doing really well that I could do better at? What are things I'm not doing well that I should be doing better at? But a lot of us don't want.

To ask those questions. We don't want the truth. Who is it? Richard Feynman, I think it was. It said something like, Our job is to be something like, I'm going to completely butcher this, but it's something like our job is to be honest with ourselves, but we're the ones that are most easily deluded by ourselves. You know what I mean? That's why you need those outside sources to provide you with that feedback. And that's why when you look at somebody we've both interviewed that we're friends with, Jesse Itzler, That's why I have so much respect for somebody like that whose life was going really well and he's like, It's too good. I need to bring David Goggins into my life to mix things up. Or I need to go to this monastery and sit with these monks for a while because he realized that his life was just cruising along and that unless he created interruptions for himself that he would just live that way in ease and comfort for as long as the universe would allow him to.

Very few people do that.

Right, I mean it takes an extraordinary.

Person to do that when you're making all the money in the world, when everything you touch turns to gold, when you've got the family, the kids, the relationship, it's like, I got good friends. It's hard to say, I'm going to push myself harder. I'm going to step up and try to transform myself even more. Because some people might say, why work that hard to do that for yourself? Just enjoy your life, relax. Like you don't need to do all these crazy things to transform.

The truth is, and anybody who's done hard things in their life knows this, that you feel most alive when you have the courage to step outside of your comfort zone and test yourself and put yourself in an uncomfortable situation where you're going to have to rise to the occasion. Those heightened moments are when you feel most fulfilled, most purposeful, and most you know, kind of connected to yourself. And I think Jesse understood that as somebody who had, you know, done ultra marathons before, he knew how he felt when he was, you know, endeavoring to do something that perhaps he thought not possible. And I think, you know, when you live this, all our culture, our culture is set up with this programming that we're all meant to aspire to that level of ease and comfort and luxury. But what's missing is the fact that what actually provides the sense of satisfaction and fulfillment is getting outside of that and testing yourself. And I think for a lot of people, they don't understand that until they get a taste of what Jesse experienced, which is, look, I got all this stuff, but I'm not content or as fulfilled as I would like to be, and I need to step outside of that in order to reconnect with that. thing that fundamentally is part of being a human.

Yeah, and I think you could have all the outer fulfillment in the world, but you're still lying to yourself until you create inner fulfillment. And that usually comes through mastery of some type of practice or overcoming something challenging on a consistent basis where you say, okay, I'm building confidence because I did something as hard. It was hard for me to learn, hard for me to overcome. I think the more things we learn how to overcome on a consistent basis, the happier we become.

Yeah, to be sure. I mean, and to kind of underscore your point, it's not about external validation. It's about your relationship to yourself. Yes. And you know when your head hits the pillow at night and when you wake up in the morning what that relationship looks like. And if that's missing something, and perhaps that's a little nudge or a call to action that you need to change things up a little bit.

So, when did this moment, was this about 20 years ago when you started to transform your your food, your nutrition, training 14 years ago, 14 years ago. How does someone, because a lot of people go through these, you know, especially this year, losing a job, a breakup, a relationship, a health scare, whatever it may be, losing a friend or a parent is happening a lot right now, unfortunately, for people. And then people decide to take action and say, okay, I'm going to change my life and I'm going to take action. I'm going to commit to this and have these new goals. I'm going to go after it. I'm going to let go of sugar and be vegan, whatever it is. how does someone sustain it for 14 years and beyond? Because sometimes they'll do that for two years and then fall back into the old patterns. How do we stay consistent in growing the way you did? Because you used to drink a lot of alcohol, used to eat horrible, not train, all these things, and you've been consistent 14 years.

Yeah, I think the key is that as important as it is to set big goals that scare you and hold this lofty aspiration for a better version of who you are. Those are like North Stars to help guide your direction. But once you kind of set those, at least what I've done is I just lodge them in the back of my mind. And then it's really just about what's happening in the moment. Again, it goes back to the President. When I got sober, the idea that I was never going to drink alcohol again. Are you kidding me? Like, I have to go to a bachelor party in six months, and then I've got this thing in Vegas, and then I have to go to, you know, it's like, how am I going to get through those things without drinking? Right? It's completely overwhelming. And I think when people set a goal, they start future tripping on that kind of stuff, and then it seems overwhelming, and ultimately that leads to abandoning it. So what you have to do is you have to chunk it. You have to break it down into bite-sized chunks and say, I know I'm going to that bachelor party in six months, but today I just have to not drink. That's all I have to worry about. Or today I just need to make sure that I don't end up face planting in Haagen-Dazs before I go to bed. That's the only thing that's your job. This is part of moving. Yeah, it's like what are you doing right now? What's the next right choice that you're making. And when you break it down into its smallest components, then it becomes digestible. So it's about putting distance between yourself and whatever that imagined future might be because it hasn't happened yet and shouldn't take up any mental energy and just focusing on what you're doing right now. We were talking about back to the marathon. Before the podcast, we were talking about how you want to do this marathon. And it's how overwhelming because it's longer than you've ever run before. And I'm like, just worry, you can do it.

It's just about preparation, one day at a time.

One day at a time. Today I'm running eight miles. That's all I got to worry about. You know what I mean? And I think when you begin to master these small tasks and you're just eating away very, very gradually at these goals, over time they become less intimidating. and much more doable. And I think along the way, as you master these tasks, they become rote. So then they don't expend a lot of mental energy. You're like, oh, this is just what I do. So your actions start to align with a value system. And I think when your actions align with your values, then it's less about achieving a goal and more about just acclimating your lifestyle around these various actions and principles. They just become who you are. And the goal is achieved not because you're working hard towards it, but because it just becomes the person that you are.

It's part of your identity. Like this, I am this thing. I am a sober individual.

I am a vegan. I'm somebody who runs. I'm somebody who doesn't eat animal products. I'm somebody who doesn't drink.

Yeah, there's no exceptions. You just are that.

Right.

And I think a lot of people don't decide to create new identities. Is it important that we should be thinking of a new identity all the time or just getting clear on the values we want to live by and then become that identity?

Yeah, the latter. I mean, I don't think about like, oh, this is, these are my, you know, these, I don't think about, I'm trying to become this other person. I just spend time thinking about what's important to me and how can I align my actions with that set of principles, right? That's all that it requires. And I think In furtherance of that point, people tend to wildly overestimate what they can achieve in a year and wildly underestimate what they can achieve in a decade. I'm much older than you, I'm 54. I've been trying to iterate on myself for many, many years. And if you Google me, there's a narrative that makes it look like I snapped my fingers and all these things happened overnight. But in truth, My personal growth trajectory started when I was 31 and I found myself in a treatment center as a hopeless alcoholic. And then it was another 10 years before I figured out I had all these blind spots around other habits that were leading me astray and had to address those. And it's just been one step at a time of moving forward. I mean, I remember as I was driving over here, I have this vivid memory of coming to your apartment the first time I met you and I was gonna be on your podcast and you were gonna be on mine. It's like what a few years ago, man. You had like, no, it had to be like seven years ago. Seven years ago, man. It was like, we started right around the same time.

Yeah, you started a few months before me.

Yeah.

Seven years ago, yeah. No furniture in your apartment.

I had nothing.

And you had this mic and I was like, you need a better mic. And we both were trying to figure out this podcast thing.

How do we get people to figure out what the download button is?

And if I was to tell you then, you were gonna have these millions of people that care deeply about what you do and that you were gonna be in this beautiful studio doing this thing. You would have been like, There's no way. And how did you achieve that? Just another episode, one more guest, who am I interviewing today? You just stay in the process. The more that you can divorce your emotional attachment to outcomes and future, you know, destinations and just concentrate on doing the best job with what you've got right in front of you and fall in love with the process and that process being an expression of that value system and what you care about. That's where you're in a position to actually succeed. Then you wake up 10 years later and you're like, holy, I'm in this fancy studio. How did that happen?

Right. And the outcomes don't matter as much anymore. You have the goal, but you're so you're enjoying the process so much.

It's not about that.

The little wins are so exciting, you just love your life. And when you love your life and you're happier and you're more appreciative and grateful, you're going to start attracting more of those good things in your life. Right, right.

The opportunities come to you.

They start chasing you, you don't chase them.

Exactly, because suddenly you're carrying a residence that's attractive and people want to be around that. and so you're acting more like a tractor beam rather than running around, expending your energy, trying to get people interested in what you're doing because you're focused on doing something exceptional that's an authentic expression of who you are and ultimately that becomes attractive to the world around you.

Yeah.

You mentioned in the last time we had you on that one of the biggest challenges you have is you have too many opportunities now in your recovering people pleaser and you say yes to a lot of things that then pull you away from your current projects and mission that you have. How have you been in the last year and a half since then?

I mean, I still struggle with that. You know, I'm still a hopeless people pleaser. Do you like me, Louis?

Yeah, yeah. Was this okay?

Yeah.

Right, you know, it's funny when the pandemic started, I thought, I'm also like naturally introverted, so I thought, this will be awesome.

Like, I can just- you- like, this is my world.

I have an excuse to like not, you know, follow through on any of these, all these commitments that I made to other people to get involved in their stuff because I can't travel and I can't do it. So now I can just do my thing, you know, and I don't have to, you know, say yes to anything. I can say no to a bunch of stuff. Over time, I figured out that I was much more of a social creature than I suspected because like everybody, I need that human connection as well. I would say that I've gotten a lot better, but out of necessity, just because, you know, when you're focused on your thing, there just isn't as much room as you would like to get involved in other people's stuff. Yeah, but it's still difficult for me. Like, I, you know, somebody will call me and be like, I'm doing this thing, and my instinct is always like, yeah, let me help you. I want to do this. I want to do that. And it becomes hard. So you have to be. It's back to your values. Like, what is, what's your core? What is your core? I hate the word Mission, but, like, what is it that you're actually doing? What's a distraction and what's a value add? And sometimes it's easy to distinguish those things, but sometimes it's not.

Would you say you have a very addictive personality?

Yeah, I'm recovering. I spent 100 days in a treatment center for addiction. So yes, I'm a highly, highly addictive personality.

How does someone Use their addictive personality in their favor for good. Because you've changed it to be more in your favor for good, but still have, you know, this, I know it's not consuming you, but it's like this people-pleasing mentality, same as me, which is kind of addictive thing that they want to break. How do people break that for all the bad things in their life and use it for all good things?

Well, first let me say on the subject of addiction, like I'm a recovering alcoholic. I've been in recovery for a very long time. 12 Steps saved my life. The most important thing to me is staying sober, helping another alcoholic achieve sobriety. That being said, I think addiction lives on a spectrum. perhaps at one more extreme end of that. But for every junkie that can't pull the needle out of their arm, there's millions of people that can't put the phone down or find themselves repeatedly in unhealthy relationships or unable to stay out of the casino or whatever it is. Maybe they just can't stop eating chocolate. I think we all have a variety of addictive tendencies no matter who you are, even if you're grounded and healthy. That being said, figuring out how to, first of all, figuring out how to quell the negative impacts of that is important. And I've learned many tools over the years from surrender to service, and at the same time, being gentle with yourself and saying, okay, this is my disposition. And like, I can't always be fighting it, but how can I channel it into something productive for myself? So whether, you know, I'm working on a book or I'm building my podcast or whatever other creative pursuit it is, I've been successful because I know how to, like, focus on something and blot out the world and, like, go all in on it. Perhaps that is at times unhealthy, but I think it's okay as long as you acknowledge that and understand that that pendulum has to swing back to center, right? If you look at the buckets of your life, what's most important? I have my recovery, I have my family, I have my career, I have my friends. whatever those buckets may be in your life, I think it's okay to be really focused on one at a time. The idea that you're going to give all those buckets the equal amount of attention on a daily basis is unrealistic.

It's really hard, yeah.

Which is why I have strong opinions about this idea of balance. But you have to make sure that you don't become so immersed or obsessive or compulsive about this one thing that you can pull yourself out of it and have the conscious awareness to say, okay, it's time for me to now reinvest that energy in one of these other buckets. Or how can I apportion my energy and my time so that I'm making sure that the things that are important in my life are being tended to and attended to.

Yeah.

What's the biggest addiction that's holding you back? Still, biggest challenge.

You know, people pleasing is a big one. Perfectionism is a big one. You know, I end up being a bottleneck in a lot of stuff. This is a conversation we've had a million times. Going back to like day one, I still fight this battle. I'm better though.

That's good. What do you think it is? Why do you think people live in perfectionism? Why is that a thing for so many people?

It's a control mechanism. And I think it's also about external validation. this has to be perfect or I won't be loved. Or if this isn't perfect, then people are gonna think differently of me than I want them to think. So I think a lot of it is based on trying to control external perceptions of you and that's rooted in self-esteem. If your self-esteem is fragile, then you're gonna wanna make sure that every step that you make is absolutely perfect so you're not giving anyone an excuse to not accept you.

Yeah.

How do we overcome that you think? There's so many people that'll say that they have this, they don't create, you know this a lot, I mean a lot of people don't put out their dreams. I asked someone on a training that I did a month ago, I asked my group and I said, how many of you had a goal or a dream for the last year and you haven't taken action on it? A lot of people virtually raised their hand. I said, how many of you have had that same dream for five years? A lot of people kept their hand up. How many of you have had this dream for 10 years and you haven't done it? But it keeps ruminating in your mind that you want to do it. A lot of people still keep their hand up for 10 years plus. And I go, that's like the need for it to be perfect is what I'm hearing from a lot of people is what holds them back from putting it out there or the fear of judgment. the fear of failure, the opinions of other people. But why are we so afraid?

Well, I think that's going to vary depending upon the individual. I mean, what you're alluding to, that sense of perfectionism leads to analysis paralysis, right? You're just not going to put anything out into the world unless it's perfect. So of course, you never end up doing anything.

Right?

Because it's nothing. You're never going to live up to your own imagined standard that you've set for yourself. And that fear, I think, is what holds a huge amount of people back. But it's more complicated than that. At the same time, I think there are a lot of people who, for whatever psychological, emotional reasons, are just terrified of stepping out of whatever routine they've created for themselves. and maybe that's a result of the way that they were parented or some trauma that they experienced. If you're somebody who grew up poor and now you're in a job that pays the bills and you have this dream, but that dream involves taking risk, including financial risk, then that person's going to have a little bit more trepidation than maybe somebody else. It's that not knowing that creates an additional paralysis on top of that.

But if we knew what would happen, it wouldn't be as fun. You know what I mean? If we knew what the end result would be.

But everybody has a different relationship with risk. You know? Like you're somebody who has a healthy relationship with risk. I think what happens is you take a risk and if it succeeds, then that reframes your relationship with risk and you're willing to take another one. that next step is going to be a little bit broader and a little bit riskier than the one that came before it. But if you've lived your life in a certain way in accordance with some set of parameters, like this is what I do and I go to school and I get this job and I'm going to get my pension and they've never stepped outside of that and challenged themselves in any fundamental real way, then you telling them like you got to do, you got to try these other things is going to be scary and intimidating. So what I always say to those people is, It's not about quitting your job. You don't even have to take a risk. If you have this dream that you've been harboring for a decade, but you haven't done anything about it, what's the least risky thing that you could do to actually breathe a little bit of life into it? Maybe you want to play the clarinet or whatever it is. You want to be a stand-up comedian. Write a joke and that's it. That's all you have to do. Today, write a joke. I'm not asking you to go on stage. I'm not asking you to quit your job. Just do that one thing. And I think when you take it's back to the whole like micro step, what are you doing in this moment, you know, concept. And I think when you when you take those little steps that have very little risk attached to them, over time you create a little bit of momentum and a little bit of emotional attachment to that. And then suddenly the next step is slightly less scary than the one that came before it. And so you can kind of iterate on that. over time until suddenly you wake up and you're like, oh, I got, I got like 15 minutes of jokes here. And then you have to take the big risk and get up on stage. Or maybe you just call your friend and you tell your friend these jokes. That's less risky, right? But what is it that you can do that's just enough outside of your comfort zone, but not so outside of your comfort zone that it's gonna paralyze you?

Yeah.

What do you think are the three things, three biggest things we could do to increase our confidence? and belief in ourself.

Speaking as somebody who lacked confidence as a young person, I mean, I think the most powerful thing to two things, I don't know if I can think of three, but two that come to mind are one, if you accomplish something that's hard, particularly something that maybe you thought you weren't capable of, that's immediately going to boost your esteem. It has nothing to do with external validation. Again, it's about your relationship with yourself. The second thing is that self-esteem comes from performing esteemable acts. Those esteemable acts can be on behalf of yourself, like what I just talked about, but they also come from performing selfless acts for others. being of service to somebody else is like a super high way to self-esteem. So if you're not feeling great about yourself, you're basically miring in your own self-pity and that does no good for anybody. So the best thing you can do is avail yourself to help another human being. And that can be as simple as calling up a friend who you know is having a hard time and just listening to them. you don't have to solve their problem, but just give them your time. It's the most valuable thing that you have. It doesn't have to be going to a soup kitchen and feeding those less fortunate. It can be that. It can be anything. But what I found and what I've learned over many years of practicing this is that you basically get outside of yourself and you realize that you're living in your head and you're running, you're looping this you know, story that you're telling yourself about who you are and what your limits are. And the minute that you make yourself available to help somebody else, it quiets all of that. All of that goes away. And when you make that a practice, I can almost guarantee, I can guarantee that you're going to feel better about yourself because you're making a difference for other people.

You always boost confidence when you do that. I had two other things that came to my mind. One is being your word to yourself. Being your word to other people, being your word to other people and showing up the way you say you're gonna be on time or I'm gonna help you with this thing and you actually follow through, that builds confidence with yourself where you say, I'm gonna walk three miles today, doing it and completing it. As opposed to, I'm gonna walk three miles today and then you don't do it, you lose confidence with yourself because you aren't able to follow through on your word.

That's an estimable act on behalf of yourself.

Exactly.

Right? And I think a close cousin to that is being gentle with yourself, right? And understanding that we're all flawed human beings and we mess up and we're not perfect. So when you find yourself in the wake of such a misstep to be like, it's okay.

Don't beat yourself up all day.

How can you practice self-love and. And forgiveness of yourself.

Yeah, it's powerful. I think also something else that came up for me was using some of your time to follow the things that you feel like you're meant to follow, like following your dreams, your goals, a hobby, a passion, whatever it may be. Using at least some of your time dedicated to work towards what's in your heart telling you you should be doing.

Yeah, I mean, I think in a macro sense, what you're saying is to live your life more intentionally and less reactively. And that's become more difficult in our technology-infused era where it's so easy to just look at our phone and take ourselves out of the moment that we have to be more rigorous with how we use our time and create boundaries around that quiet time, that creative space, even if it's just a few minutes in the morning before you start just responding and reacting to everything that's around you.

What's been the hardest thing for you to overcome in terms of using technology? Is it the phone first thing in the morning? Is it on the phone too much? Is it watching Netflix too long? What's the thing for you you've had to overcome? in the last year.

I mean, it's a struggle with the phone, you know what I mean?

Because- Use it for everything.

And, you know, for people like us, it's part of what we do, right?

It's our business.

It's not like, I'm not going on, you know, it's not like my relationship with the phone is to see what my friends are doing on Facebook. It's like, I need to be posting these things.

Marketing and promoting and yeah.

And I think, you know, what I've had to do is just understand that I'm a I'm there to broadcast, and so I don't get involved in Twitter spats and all that kind of stuff. Every once in a while, I think Twitter for me, that's the... You can.

Go down a rabbit hole there.

Well, I mean, I'm scrolling. I don't get involved in stuff. I post the podcast and I share interesting things from time to time or an article that I think is worthy or a film that I think would be interesting for people to watch. but I don't get involved in a lot of back and forth.

But you do watch it.

I'll watch it. You know what I mean? I'll be like, this drama's unfolding and I have to see how this is gonna play out and it's not good. So, I go through periods where I take those apps off my phone. If I have to use them, I'll make sure that it's on a browser on my computer, which makes it just a little bit more difficult.

You listen to a lot of Cal Newport. For that, the deep work.

Well, Cal is like, you know, he.

Has no social media.

I know, it's like, you know, good luck getting in touch with that guy, you know what I mean? Yeah, he's on email, but, you know, it's like, you know, there could be all kinds of stuff going on on social networks about his books and he would have no idea.

No idea.

And you know what?

He's probably freer of it.

Happier, happier, more productive, certainly freer.

Yeah, more connected to his family and friends probably, or freer. that's interesting. So the phone has been a challenge for you? Yeah, of course.

Especially in a pandemic when we're stuck at home, you know, it just gets ratcheted up. I mean, how does that look for you? Some days I'm really good.

Other days I'm like, nine hours on my phone. Geez, what was I doing? You know, it's like a lot of it is work related and connecting with my team and on FaceTime or talking to my girlfriend or whatever it may be. But just screen time, nine hours. I saw one day I was like, usually it's like six or seven, but I saw nine hours. I was like, man, what was I doing all day?

Yeah. Yeah.

And so it's just being very deliberate with our time on the phone. And I use my phone a lot more than my computer also, so it's like, okay, if I was on my computer for five hours a day creating or something, it'd be similar, but it's challenging.

Well, it's the more important metric. It's less about time and it's more about how much of that is being used for consumption and how much of it is being used for creation.

Yeah.

You know, if you're using it to create, that's a different relationship than it is to just mindlessly scroll and consume what other people are creating.

One of the reasons I love the podcast is because it's like an hour or two of no phone and just connecting with someone and just learning, creating, being. That's one of the things I love about it. It's like you have to put that aside. You can't have a computer or phone.

You got an iPad.

In front of you, though. Well, I'm taking notes here. It's got my questions here, but I'm not using it for something.

I'm just joking.

One of the things I did, I bought this last night. I was like, you know what? I always tell myself that I'm not gonna have my phone in my room or I'm not gonna check it in the first 10 or 20 minutes or something. And I do it for a couple days, and I always fall back into that pattern for whatever reason. Like, I get lazy. I just plug it in, and then I'm like, oh, something's happening in the morning. and I never feel good when I do that. And so last night I actually went on Amazon and I was like, I need to find the most simplest alarm clock. And also when I was interviewing Jay Shetty, he was like, it's never good to wake up to an alarm. You don't want to be alarmed when you wake up. You're automatically in fear and reaction.

Yeah.

I was like, I've been doing that my whole life. And I was like, how can I get an alarm clock that just has, like, nature sounds? It just has, like, birds, you know, water. and wake me up more relaxed.

Right.

And I'm excited to try it. And I'm like, okay, if I can have an alarm that's not alarming, but wakes me up peacefully.

Right.

And my phone is in another room, then I feel like I can really start to create different habits for myself. So I'm excited about that.

It's good. I mean, I have pretty hard and fast rules about the morning time. You know, the morning for me is my most creative part of the day. And I try to really honor that by not getting on the phone and doing meditation and journaling.

Yeah.

And creative work. I don't schedule any phone calls or meetings before 12. You know, that's when I. After I do that, I train. And, like, that's really, you know, I'm fortunate in that I'm self-employed and I have control over my schedule and I. we understand that, you know, that's a luxury and a lot of people don't have that. But I think really being mindful and intentional about that first hour after you wake up in the morning is super important because you're setting the tone for how the whole day is going to go. And if you wake up alarmed and then immediately go to your phone and you're just reacting, then you're not in control of your life. Your life is being dictated and controlled by external forces. Now, we all have to respond to the world, right? But if you can just delay that a little bit and use that morning time to connect with yourself, to remind yourself about why it is that you're doing whatever it is you're going to do on that day, I think you're in a better position to just be more present and responsive rather than reactive when the stresses of the day start getting hurled at you.

Yeah.

Being more in reflection mode than reaction mode, I think is key. What do you think is the thing that's going to help take you to the next level over the next decade? 54 right now?

Yeah, I'm 54.

What do you think over the next six years?

What's the next level?

What is the next level for you?

I mean, I don't, to be honest, I don't really think of my life in those terms. It's not like, oh, I'm doing this, but I really want to be here.

Maybe it's not creating more, it's just being something greater, whether that's being more intentional in my marriage or relationships or being more intentional here. What's going to make you a better version of you? Whether it's serving more people or pulling less on projects, you know?

It's hard because like I'm really happy right now and I'm really happy with my life and I feel so grateful that I get to do what I do and if this was it, like I'm good. Like it doesn't have to be I'm not doing it to get to some other place and I think that that the thing that I want to be able to master that I've struggled with is just being able to live more in joy and appreciation of that. Like, intellectually, I understand it. I can connect with that gratitude when I focus on it, but it doesn't come easy to me. Like, I'm still a grinder.

And. And.

And, you know, this. This vocation that I built for myself, I'm very proud of. But when it began, there was a level of, like, Financial. desperation that I was in and uncertainty. And I leveraged those as motivation. And I was able to kind of climb out of that and create something that now is very stable and successful. But I still operate with a little PTSD from that.

Really?

And feel like I have to keep, you know, I have to like, it's got to be like this. Like I hold on to it very tightly. And I think the opportunity for me is to mature out of that trauma and just more in joy and appreciation. So that I can have more fun throughout the day. And I think also with that focus and that addictive tendency, I tend to live my life like this, which cuts me off more than I would like from friends and intimacy with people that I care about, if I'm being really honest. Wow.

Yeah, that's interesting.

So I've, you know, I have great relationships with my kids and my marriage is great and all of that, but. But I could do better with my friendships for sure. And I think the pandemic has brought that into Focus in a way that maybe I wouldn't have appreciated, so. I always look at situations like this, like, oh, rather than the pandemic happening to us, how can we look at it as happening for us? Where is the growth opportunity here? And that's kind of what's been coming up for me.

Where do you think you're lacking intimacy the most?

I think just in being more available to my friends, you know what I mean? I'm busy, I got this going on. We just get caught up in our lives, you know? and then our lives move quickly. You know, I can tell you as somebody who's older than you, it's like, wow, like what?

It's.

I'm 54. Really? Because I feel like I'm 30. But then I'm like, my beard's white, dude. You know? And I want to be.

Yeah.

So I want to be. I want to be a better friend, I think.

So I'm 37. Where were you at 37?

I was seven years sober and very intent on becoming a successful lawyer in Los Angeles.

You're still a lawyer then?

Oh yeah, I was a lawyer until I was 40. So I practiced law for, I don't know, 15 years or something. Yeah, I was working across the street here as a lawyer. Jamming the square peg into a round hole, determined to make it work. and blindly unaware that I was chasing the wrong goal. You know, I've chased the wrong goal. And out of sheer determination and perseverance, you know, and holding on tightly to it, refusing to see what was obvious to a lot of people, which was that, like, I don't think this is the right career for you.

But you were holding on to it to achieve it, and you achieved a.

Certain level of success. Yeah, I was living my life in accordance with a set of rules that I don't want to say the wrong thing.

They weren't yours.

Yeah, they weren't mine. And I didn't have the conscious awareness to understand that I was living my life in accordance with somebody else's rule book and not my own. And I wasn't self-integrated enough to realize that. And it took another crisis for me to say, I never really asked myself what it is that I wanted. I just was the guy who you know, tried to get the good grades and get into the best school that I could and, you know, go to grad school and get the best job. And then, you know, to wake up at 40 and think, I don't think that I'm climbing the right ladder here.

It wasn't until you were 40 when you realized that?

Yeah, I mean, that was when I had the, that's when I was like, you know, 50 pounds overweight and had the staircase thing and I was like.

You couldn't climb them anyways.

Yeah, yeah, I needed a, I needed a, you know, I needed a different kind of intervention in my life and a redirect. So it took a little bit of a mini crisis for me to realize that. And I never felt entitled to even ponder what it was that I wanted out of life or what it might be that would get me excited to get out of bed in the morning. I was like, I'm a person of a certain education, and there are expectations that are built into that, and this is what I need to to do. And I had to, like, you know, drive that into a brick wall in order to, you know, re-examine and ultimately deconstruct it.

So if you're 37 looking back, what are three things you would have let go of or eliminated in your life that weren't working for you?

I would have. I would have told myself to just stop already. Like, quit. Like, what are you doing? Like, you're not. on the right path for yourself. It's okay. It's not about failure. It's about honoring yourself. You know, I was living for. I was living for social and parental approval at that time. And I think that's the case with a lot of people.

Were you living more for parent or social approval?

It was a little bit of both. I mean, I love my parents, but I grew up in a household where you were expected to perform at a certain level and I got self-esteem from trying to live up to those expectations, even though I could never quite get to that point. I would chase that for a very long time and ultimately couldn't find myself until I'd exasperated that.

Okay, so let go of that quit. What else would you have done?

Well, I would have said stop drinking, but I had already stopped drinking by that point. I think the other thing that I was doing at that time, because I was so caught up in external validation, it was like, I need to get the better car or, like, let me move into this apartment. And I was living outside of my means, so. The biggest piece of advice that I always give to young people and certainly would have given to myself would be to live as leanly as possible. To let go of all that stuff because it just buys you options and opportunities. You have choices. But if you incur debt and live outside of those means, then you become enslaved to whatever salary you're earning, that paycheck, then becomes your master and you're unable to pivot and make choices. Even if you want to chase that dream or do that thing, you don't feel capable of doing it because you're servicing a lifestyle.

Do you think a lot of people are still in that space today in their late 30s that they're overexpending their finances they're in debt, they're doing stuff they don't want to do for others approvals, and they're addicted to something that's holding them back.

I think there's two camps. You know, I think there is a generation of young people who are very influenced by, you know, Instagram culture, and they see guys with Lambos and yachts and all that kind of stuff, and it's just like, that's what I got to have.

And they're not successful.

So there's a certain level. Yeah, you're not successful. unless you're standing in front of a private jet or something like that. And so that motivates young people to live outside their means to try to front that they're, you know, that they're, you know, living in a certain way that is in accordance with that like set of parameters, right? And I'm sure that there's a lot of young people who are in debt or living way outside of their means in order to like, look good on Instagram or TikTok or whatever it is. At the same time, there's a whole new generation of young people who are more on the Joshua Fields Millburn tip of living minimally. You get to my age and it's like, oh, those young people. But I look at Gen Z and I'm very encouraged because this is a generation of people who actually care about things that matter. They're making life decisions and career decisions based upon social responsibility and personal fulfillment. And they're not about the bling. They're about finding meaning in their career choices and their lifestyle choices. And so I'm very, you know, when I see that message out there, that message of minimalism and like, trying to identify what your values are and organizing your life in accordance with that as opposed to what comes on the other side of that, which is what we just talked about. I get a lot of hope and enthusiasm for that ethos. And that was not something, when I was growing up, nobody was talking about minimalism when I was in my 20s.

It was about more, more, more. keeping up with everyone, right?

Yeah, I grew up in the 80s, you know, and it was Wall Street and greed is good. There was nobody pushing back on that at that time.

Yeah, it was being celebrated.

And it still is now. You know, we're in it. We're in it. We're having a, you know, the moment that we're in right now is very similar to the 80s in certain regards. There is this other, there is this other, you know, kind of very cool. sensibility among young people where they're not buying into that and they do care about things like the environment and sustainability and conscious capitalism and like, how am I going to stake my claim but actually do good for others? And I think that's very cool.

I have a theory that the next year, the media is going to continue with the hype of fear because they're making so much money right now by getting everyone's attention with just spreading fear, fear. Obviously, a lot of stuff is happening and real and things are happening, but it's sensationalizing it so much to gain our attention so they can make money as well. It's not here's the facts and what to do about it. It's blowing everything out of a proportion in certain areas so they can get more viewers, more listeners and more dollars with whether that theory is accurate or not. If that does happen next year where news continues to sensationalize things, how can we manage that emotionally so we don't fall into the trap and lose ourselves more as a society in the next year.

Yeah, I mean, I would completely agree that, you know, we're in a media environment that thrives on dividing people and fomenting fear. I think that that culture is going to meet its moment when Trump leaves office and they have to find a different way of maintaining eyeballs and ears. So that's going to be interesting to see how that unfolds. But I think the message, and to answer your question, is that we have to be more conscious and mindful about our information diet. And it goes back to being proactive and in control of how you're living your life or reactive. We can all scroll through these platforms and let our dopamine get spiked by whatever outrageous headline or story that we see. but we have to remind ourselves and remember that we have a choice about whether we need to consume that or not. And I think that's why I feel so strongly about podcasting because I feel like in many ways it's an antidote to that culture. Because we're having long-form conversations, they're by their very nature going to be laced with nuance and A good faith attempt at understanding, whether two people sitting across from each other agree on everything or not, at least there's an effort.

To.

Have a mature, thoughtful exchange. And that's anathema to the clickbait, fear-based media climate that basically monopolizes most of our attention. But I think it's no mistake that podcasting has become, like, look, we were talking about when we started. Could you have imagined that podcasting would have matured to the kind of attention that it's getting right now? It's crazy, right? Who would have thought that people have time to spend an hour, two hours, in some cases three hours, to listen to a conversation? People would have said, you,'re crazy. But I think it's hardwired into us. It's like that campfire that we're missing, especially in a pandemic when we can't connect with people in the manner that we would like. And I really see that this medium is in many ways a response and an answer to that fear-based culture to say, we're not gonna stand for that. We're better than that. And the fact that people are cottoning on to podcasting and enjoying it and this medium continues to grow at the rate that it's growing speaks to that human quality. And that's something that I find, I find hopeful.

Yeah, it's inspiring. You've been in a, what looks like on Instagram, a healthy relationship for a long time. Been married for how long?

Been together 20. We've been married for 15, 16? No, yeah, 16. That's years.

She's gonna get you for that. No, no, no.

If I asked her, she'd be like, oh, hell yeah.

Right.

What would you say are the three things that have allowed you to thrive through all the ups and downs, pandemic, children, hormones, projects, success, challenges, addiction, what's allowed you To continue to thrive obviously nothing ever being perfect but grow and.

Improve in my relationship with Julie. Yeah, I think the first thing is.

That.

Is that we're both very independent people and we're not looking to the other person to solve our problems for ourselves. So there's a mutual respect. Julie doesn't Julie doesn't need me to complete her. I don't need her to complete me. That's on us and our relationship with ourselves and our spiritual lives and our emotional lives.

It's hard to find someone like that who understands it's their responsibility to complete themselves.

Yeah.

It's hard. How do you find someone or how do you encourage someone to live by that idea when they've been told a story pretty much their whole life.

That, you know, the princess needs the prince to come and rescue them.

How does someone embrace it and realize that that's a better lifestyle?

Well, you come into the world alone and you die alone, my friend, you know? And, and you've got to be on this journey of growth for yourself. It can't be contingent on another person. And I think a lot of people who are in pain or are looking for some sort of grounding, often look to that other person. If I can just, if I date that person, then I'm going to be okay.

And.

It'S never the case. You've got to be okay with yourself in order to attract that person into your life to begin with. water rises to its own level. And, you know, I've had to learn this the hard way over, over many years. I don't know how you can compel that in somebody. They've got to figure that out for themselves. But I think when you're in a relationship, you and, and you're, you know, projecting onto that other person, some a, some idealized version of who they are and an expectation that they need to, you know, fulfill some need that you have. you're in for a ride, right?

Be a challenge.

So you've got to figure out how to have those needs met yourself outside of that relationship so that when you come together, you're both complete individuals who can share and meet each other where you're at. And that's hard. It's really hard.

What's been the biggest challenge you guys have had to overcome together?

I think that the biggest challenge that we've had was navigating really difficult financial times where we almost lost our house. And I think we've talked about this before. We went through an extended number of years, as a matter of fact, where it was really difficult for us to figure out how to make ends meet. And I was very close to going back to being a lawyer. Had I not had Julie's support, I very well would have done that. only because she was able to have faith in what we were trying to accomplish when my faith faltered, that I was able to stay in it. And that's very, very rare. I mean, I think most partners would.

Have said, Go get a job.

Go get a job. Like, we're, you know, and as a, as, as, you know, a man who had children, it was emasculating and very difficult. And that's not that that was a situation that I think probably would have broken most marriages. And we were able to leverage that to grow closer and become completely aligned in our vision and what we wanted to achieve and accomplish. And that's not to say it was easy because it was, it was the most difficult thing that we've ever done. But, but it, but it really did bring us closer and it bonded us in a way, you know, that, that I just, you know, I don't know, it was it's really special.

That's pretty cool.

I think the lesson is like when you're in a crisis, understand that it can fracture you or just as likely bring you together. If you can like get really grounded in what's occurring and open up the channel of communication and allow yourself to be vulnerable and use it as an opportunity to find a way to come closer together.

Yeah, it's pretty cool.

So this was, I mean, this was the hardest part of it was like after Finding Ultra came out.

Really?

Yeah.

After the book came out.

Yeah.

Because I, because that's when I finally walked away from being a lawyer and I was like, I'm gonna step into, you know, this other thing. But that thing was very ill defined at that time. And I had trust and faith that the universe would show up, you know, because I, I'd written this book and I had I was starting to get a little bit of interest in the things that I cared about talking about, but the phone didn't ring for a long time. And even when things seemingly were happening on the outside, like financially, it was very difficult to make it work. So it took a long time.

When did the book come out?

2012.

Yeah. Wow.

So between 2012 and 2015, it was pretty tough.

Really?

Yeah. Yeah.

And I did the podcast for a long time before monetizing it in any way. The podcast started in 2008. I don't know if I ever thought that it, like, when we started it, like, I didn't even know that it could be a thing.

You started yours at the end of 2012?

Yeah.

I started mine at the beginning of January 2013.

Yeah, we were like two months apart. I started at the very end of 2012.

Yeah, I remember. Remember, people didn't even know how to find the podcast app on their phone then.

Yeah.

It was like, how do I listen to this? Where do I go?

I still get that. I know.

But it's more accessible now. So that was the hardest time, 2012 to 2015.

I mean, I've had plenty of hard times, but I think as financially-- As a married couple, like trying to traverse that together with children.

Wow. Because they've got needs and expenses in school and college.

And also other people saying, what are you doing? Like he's out going running and-- Two hours? And you guys can't-- He's like, you'll ride his bike for eight hours today and you guys can't put like food on the table. It was rough, like having to wherewithal to like mute out all the noise and say, we're on this path, we believe in this path and it might take longer than we wish or that we thought, but to maintain adherence to that and have the conviction was very difficult. But I look back on it now like all hard things with great gratitude because I think that we had to burn in that fire in order to carry the resonance that we're able to carry today. That hardship crafted us, it hardened us and wisened us so that we could be better servants ultimately.

Do you think we don't go through hard things growing up in the first 20, 30 years of our life where everything just seems to. We have great parents. You know, we stay healthy, we work hard, and we get the job right away. Do you feel like we're not going to be as fully fulfilled unless we go through hardships? Or is it possible to be happy and fulfilled when everything works out?

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, you know, listen, I don't have to tell you. I'm sure the most interesting people that you've had on the podcast are all people that went really hard stuff, right? It forces you to meet your maker. You get clear on who you want to be. You develop the skills that you need to tackle obstacles and get through hard. And it turns you into, it forces you to become, it's either going to destroy you or it's going to expedite that process of self-actualization. And you ultimately have stories to tell and you become an interesting person.

Right?

That's not to say that you have to have that in order to be happy and fulfilled and purposeful and all of those things. Like everything else, it is available to us. I just think it's harder when the universe doesn't foist it upon you. But that being said, nobody gets out of life alive, right? And I think even if you had great parents, nobody gets through the first 20 years of their life without some kind of trauma that's formative, even if they're not consciously aware of it. be aware of it. So, you know, everybody has their stuff. And, you know, the people that I find to be the people that I want to spend time with are the people that face those hard things and have the courage to not only work through them, but share their vulnerabilities, you know, because that creates the intimacy in the bond. And, of course, I think that that's freely available to everybody.

That's cool. Why did you decide to write a book again? And use a beautiful book. I mean, it's amazing. It's like a piece of art.

Yeah, thank you.

But this is, there's a lot of people who have done books around their podcast or their blogs. You've done it in a unique, different way. Why did you decide to create this?

Well, first of all, you said part of it is what you just said, which is that you talk to people and they're like, how do I hear this podcast, you know? Right.

So.

I wanted to create a love letter to my guests and also to the audience. Not everybody listens to every episode. And even if you have listened to, you know, a large portion of the catalog, it's easy to forget because you're commuting or you're at the gym or you're in the car. And I wanted to basically create a series, this is the first volume and what I hope will be an annual thing, of putting down on paper some of the lessons and the wisdom that the guests have imparted over the years on the podcast. So yeah, the book's called Voicing Change. I mean, it's basically, I took 50 guests that I've had over the years, we transcribed the podcast, excerpted it out, some of the nuggets. I have essays contributed by some people and I write thoughtful introductions for each of them. And it's all packaged in this coffee table type book with beautiful photographs so that anyone would feel great about leaving it out on their coffee table for people to peruse. And we decided to do it as a self-published thing. Really? That's kind of cool.

See that here, Ritual Enterprises. What was that like?

It's been cool. The other books we did, Julie and I together have done four books, all with publishers. So I'm well versed in how all of that works and we've had great experiences with all of those. This book was a little bit different. It's a heavy, expensive book because it's like a cookbook. It's full of photographs and stuff like that. given that it's expensive to produce.

The margins would be so low if you're working with a budget.

Yeah, the margins are crazy low and I would never be able to get the advance that would make sense for me. So I also wanted to be able to do a new one every year. And I just thought this is the, and this is a book that.

I'm.

Not trying to get on the New York Times bestseller list with this book. This book is for the fans and it's for people that love podcasts and people are one inspiration. It's not about it being at the airport bookstore or being on some list. It's just something that I wanted to offer. I wanted to own it and control it, and I'm in a position where I've got a team of really talented, amazing artists that I could work with on this. So we've had to create infrastructure and a whole business around it because we're handling, not only do we handle design, printing, production, printing, shipping, everything. And we're doing, yeah, we're handling all the shipping. thing and the Fulfillment and the customer service and all of that.

So it's not on Amazon.

No, it's not even on Amazon.

Like, we're not putting it through your website.

You have to buy it shipped out from your place. We'll ship it globally, you know, but it's gonna, the shipping's expensive. Like, everybody's so used to free shipping now.

Yeah.

So they're like, oh, my God, it's like 25. And it's like, but that's what it is. Like, I'm not making any money. That's what shipping actually costs, you know? So that's been interesting navigating all of that, but. It's a different relationship to the book because we're self-publishing it. I feel more emotionally connected to it.

It's really cool. Yeah, you inspire me. I feel like I need to do something like this now.

It's been really beautiful. It's been really cool and the response has been great and it's just, it's gratifying.

Who's the one person that you wish you could have had more time with in a conversation?

I mean, you know, I love to spend all day with everybody that comes on the show. I mean, you know, there's, you can't ask me to choose among my baby, you know, the babies.

It's hard. I'd say Kobe Bryant for me.

Oh yeah, I guess, right.

If you've had to pick one person that was, you're like, oh man, I wish I had another hour with that person.

Right.

They maybe weren't as accessible to.

Yeah.

But I know, it's hard to choose.

I know, I know.

Even if it's an unknown person or just someone you had a great conversation with.

Well, I would suspect that you share this, which is that you do these podcast interviews, you create this connection with the people that you talk about, and then a lot of these people end up your friends and they're part of your life, right? So even if I wish a conversation had gone on longer than it had, those people that I have that I have that feeling towards, I end up having conversations with them later anyway because they are part of my They are a part of my life. And that's really, you know, that's the great, beautiful, amazing thing about hosting a podcast is you get this excuse to talk to amazing people and then you're connected to them.

It's amazing. I love it. Where can we get the book then? Rich Roll.com.

Yeah, it's on my website.

There you go, Rich Roll.com. Shipping not included.

But it's worth it. Don't at me about the shipping.

Yeah, but it's a beautiful experience. experience to check out for sure. Great wisdom. I'm really proud of it. Yeah, you should be. This is really nice. Great photography. Really cool. So congrats on this. Richroll.com, check it out. Check out Rich on YouTube. Powerful YouTube channel as well. YouTube slash Rich Roll and the Rich Roll podcast. Make sure you check this out. Powerful stuff that you've always got. And you already interview a lot of people in the ultra, you know, endurance and health and wellness space, the biohacking space as well. You do a lot of that more so than me. Right. You do a lot of, like, these extreme athletes or people that have gone above and beyond physically, mentally. Don't you do a lot of.

Yeah.

I mean, I, I, you know, my rule with the podcast is I follow my curiosity, and obviously, you're gonna have people on that, that, you know, are doing the things that you're interested in and I'm part of that world and I'm interested in that world. So yeah, I've had a lot of.

Those kind of people on. That's cool, man. That's great. I'm curious what last time you shared your three truths. I'm curious what they are now.

I won't tell you what you said last time. I could never, there's no way I'd be able to tell you what I said last time.

My three truths, what is the context of these three truths? The three truths question is if it's your last day and you've accomplished everything in your life, But everything you've ever created, like this book or the podcast or videos, they all have to go with you, that content to the next place, wherever this is.

Right.

You get to live as long as you want, but eventually you gotta take it all with you and go somewhere and turn the lights off. But you get to leave behind a piece of paper and write down three lessons from your life that you would share with the world or three things you know to be true. And this would be all we have to remember you by, these three truths.

Okay.

What did you say?

Yes. The first truth is approach your life from a perspective of service, like live your life in service. Like give more than you seek to get, I think is important. That's one truth. Another truth would be, and this is a mantra that I always repeat to myself, mood follows action. And that speaks to what we were talking about earlier about people who struggle to achieve their goals and succumb to analysis paralysis, like put the action before the emotional shift that you seek tends to shock people out of their status quo. Third thing. Third truth. Truth that I've learned behind, like, learned as a result of my life.

Yeah.

That you would share to the world a lesson.

There is no destination, so you've got to fall in love with the process of where it is that you're aiming to go. And that journey cannot be about material accumulation or status. It has to be one that has one that's girded with internal meaning and purpose and value for yourself.

-Yeah. That's beautiful. It's powerful.

-I don't know if I said that as concisely as I would.

-It'S powerful to me, man. -I love that. Well, make sure you guys check out the book, the podcast, the YouTube. And Rich, you're a guy that does things with an art you're like a beautiful artist in your attention to detail. Like every piece of work you put out there.

-It'S a soul-freak bottleneck thing, though. -I know.

But it's like every book you've ever written is beautifully done. You bring a level of artistry to it. You make it rich and meaningful, just consuming your information. So, I really appreciate that about you and your dedication to being the healthiest, happiest version of yourself, no matter what is going on. I think it's really hard for people to overcome an addiction, any type of addiction, bad food, alcohol, sex, whatever it may be. It's really hard to overcome it and sustain it for as long as you have. So I acknowledge you for that and living in that space consistently, man. And can't wait to have you back on in the future, man.

Appreciate you. Appreciate it. Thank you, man. Mad love and respect for everything that you've created and built here.

Man.

Appreciate it. Appreciate you too.

Much love.

Thank you so much for listening today. I'm so grateful that you're here and I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, please share it out with a friend right now. You can text a few friends, you can post it on social media, you can tag myself, Lewis Howes and Rich Roll over on Instagram Stories. Wherever you think your audience would love to hear it, make sure to share it out with them. And if this is your first time here, click on that subscribe button right now over on Apple podcast. Every time we get new people to subscribe, it actually sends a message to reach more people on that platform and helps us really impact more lives to discover our content. So subscribe, leave a rating and review, and let us know what you enjoyed most about this episode. And if you want weekly inspiration messages to support you in your life and keep you accountable and keep you motivated, then text me the word podcast right to 614-350-3960 because every week I'm sending out positive messages and inspiration right to your phone. And I want to leave you with a quote from Karen Lamb who said, A year from now you may wish you had started today. Oh my goodness, that one is big. Every year there's always something I wish I would have started a year prior. And that's why I constantly try to say, you know what? This is meaningful. This is something I want to do. So I'm going to take action today and just do a little bit every single day. I want to remind you, if no one's told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And don't you ever, ever forget that. I'm so grateful for you. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.