1074 How to Overcome Self-Doubt & Rejection to Build a Billion Dollar Brand w/Jamie Kern Lima

I'm the person that literally in my heart and soul managed to go from Denny's waitress to building an entrepreneur because I learned to believe in myself and believe I belong in the room and overcome rejection, overcome fear, but I am still a work in progress, right?

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur, and each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Colin Davis said, the road to success and the road to failure are almost exactly the same. And Oprah Winfrey said, Honor your calling. Everyone has one. Trust your heart and success will come to you. My guest today is my friend Jamie Kern Lima. She is the founder of IT Cosmetics, which she started in her living room and grew the company into the largest luxury makeup brand in the country. She sold the company to L'Oreal in a billion dollar deal and became the first female CEO of a brand in its history. Her love for her customers and remarkable authenticity and belief eventually landed her on the Forbes America's Richest Self-Made Women's List. Today, she's a mother of two, an investor, speaker and thought leader who is passionate about inspiring the world. And in this episode, we discuss how Jamie built a billion dollar business, how to push through self-doubt when nobody is believing in your dream, what Jamie would do if she could go back and how she would grow her business differently to be less stressful, how to run your business and have a thriving relationship at the same time, what mindset changes she had to make in order to become more successful. And the moment she knew she needed to exit her dream, she shares that knowing when to let go of dream is as important as knowing when to go after one. I'm very excited for you to hear this one. Make sure to share it with someone that you think needs to listen to it. Just copy and paste this link where you're listening to this podcast and text it to a couple of friends posting on social media. Make sure to tag me and Jamie Kern Lima as well. And if this is your first time here, please click the Subscribe button over on Apple podcast or Spotify right now, as well as leave us a rating and review to let us know what you enjoyed most from this episode. at the end. Okay, in just a moment, the one and only Jamie Kern Lima. Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatest Podcast. We've got my good friend Jamie Kern Lima in the house. Good to see you.

So good to be here.

Very excited. Very excited. You have an amazing story and you've done some incredible things as an entrepreneur. And one of the things that I love about your story is that you had a lot of rejection early on. So I want to dive into the topic about rejection first before I go more into your story. What do you think is the right way for people to look at rejection as a positive thing as opposed to something that is the end of their opportunity, end of their life, end of their moment for going after their dream? How did you look at your rejections as a good thing?

I love this question because honestly, I feel like people don't share this enough. And I feel like right now we see social media, we see everyone's highlight reel, we always see all the outcomes. It's really why I wrote this book, to be honest, because if you Google my name, you see like, oh, Denny's Waitress to Billion Dollar Entrepreneur. And I get so many DMs, especially from women, Louis. So many DMs from people saying, oh, did you get lucky? Or was that easy? Or did you have connections? And it's like, oh, wow. If we don't share the rejections and the real story and the real journey, then I feel like people feel like they're alone in their own rejection and their own pain and all that. So, yeah, it was, My journey has been filled with hundreds of nos, tons of rejection, and I feel like figuring out how to not take it personal has been huge on the business side of things. It's always hurt, to be honest. It's always hurt. But also, I believe, and no matter if someone believes in God, the universe, or whatever, When I look back at everything I've gone through, especially this last 10-year window, there's a famous saying, Rejection is God's protection. You could say rejections is the universe's protection, right? Whatever applies to each person listening, but like, I believe it. And it's, I mean... So that person shouldn't have said yes to you.

It wouldn't have been the right fit for you.

It wouldn't have been the right fit. I mean... Or the right timing or whatever. And what's hard, and here's the hardest thing, is so many people actually like never step out of their comfort zone because they're so afraid of rejection because it freaking hurts. It sucks when it happens, right? And sometimes it doesn't make sense and it doesn't feel fair. And I remember, you know, gosh, one rejection out of hundreds in my journey because, you know, I thought I was going to be a news anchor and I'll talk to a host my whole career. I love other people's stories. I just want to interview you right now. It's like since the time I was a little girl, it's all I wanted to do. And I was working in my dream job as a news anchor and I started getting this this skin condition called rosacea, which is bright red. And there's like bumps and all kinds of stuff. And I thought I was going through this big setback in my career, and I would be anchoring the live news, and I'd hear from the producer in my ear, like, there's something on your face, there's something on your face. And I'd be live, and they were like, you need to wipe it off, you need to wipe it off.

And I knew-- then it probably get worse.

Yeah, it's like, it's flaring up more. You're like, ah. I'm like, ah, and I knew there wasn't anything I could wipe off. And I started going through this season of self-doubt where I started thinking, okay, am I gonna lose my job? Am I gonna lose viewers? Is my boyfriend still gonna think I'm cute? All those thoughts that we tell ourselves. And I started thinking I was in this big setback, but what it was really was a setup for what I was supposed to do. And I think so often our setbacks are setups. It's just hard to see it at the time. And I started, you know, trying every makeup out there from the most expensive to the least to everything. I couldn't find anything that works. And I made this decision to literally leave my dream job. Like, I think sometimes knowing when to let go of a dream is as important as knowing when to go after one. And I feel like so many people are always like, just don't give up. Just don't quit. But I actually think that doesn't always apply. I think that the victory is knowing when to hear yourself and trust yourself and let go of a dream or step into one. But what I didn't know is stepping into that dream would be faced with three years of constant rejection. So from the moment I quit my job and my husband and I wrote our business plan and our honeymoon flight to South Africa, got back, dove all in, put everything we had into a product. And once we finally had a product that worked for me, I just thought, oh, it's gonna sell. It's just gonna do well, right? And it was literally three years of every single beauty retailer, all the ones I loved and the ones I thought, oh my gosh, I put them on a pedestal and I thought, oh, they're gonna love this because it works. So I would send it to Sephora and Ulta and QVC, all the places, and they all said, Like every one of them said no.

For three years.

For three years. We got down to under $1,000 in our bank account, which was our company and personal combined. Literally it was no after no. And I mean one no that stands out just to share this, because anyone listening part of your greatness community, like dealing with rejection, dealing with setbacks, dealing with, it's hard when you check in with your gut, you feel like you're supposed to be going after this dream or creating something or launching the podcast or creating the product or whatever. It's hard when you feel like it's the right thing, but then there's no proof of success around you.

No one's buying into it.

No one's buying into it, and then your own self-doubt starts taking over, right? And when you have experts telling you they don't believe in what you're doing, that's hard. And I remember one moment in particular when we got interest from a private equity firm. And I was like, I was so so excited because we had had so many no's and I thought, okay, if they invest in us, and this was a big private equity firm, they invest in a lot of consumer product companies that we see at the grocery store.

Sure.

They're like household names, right? And they invest in a lot of them pre-revenue and then they become big companies. And I'm like, oh, you know, if they invest in us, A, I won't go bankrupt. B, maybe they can use their leverage to get us into these stores that are telling us no, they don't want our product. And so we started the meeting process with the investors and went through the diligence phase and presented our product pipeline and showed our budgets. And I'll never forget the final meeting. And my husband, Paulo, who you know, he was there, and then the head investor was like three feet from me. And I thought it was going to be a yes. I was so excited. And he literally was like, Thank you. We want to congratulate you on your product. think that it's awesome, we want to wish you the best, but it's a no, we're going to pass on investing in It Cosmetics. And I was like, okay, can you tell me why? Right? Because feedback is usually, I mean, feedback's usually a gift, not always. And I was like, can you tell me why? And he looked at me, and he's literally three feet from me, and he says, do you really want me to be honest with you? I said, yes, please. And he says, I just don't think women will buy makeup from someone who looks like you with your body and your weight. Right? And so this was a moment, when he said that, I don't think women will buy makeup from someone who looks like you with your body and your weight, it was this moment where I was looking at him, right? And it was almost like watching his lips move in slow motion. And I remember two big things from this. I remember my whole body flooded with a lifetime of body doubt and self-doubt.

And God doubt, you say?

Yeah, God doubt. but it felt like I was staring my fear straight in the eye. It was almost like it wasn't even about him in this moment. And I knew that two things. I remember that and I remember this moment in my gut that told me, even though I was in pain at the time and it hurt and this was a big rejection, I also felt this really strong moment of feeling like he's wrong. Like a knowing, like a deep knowing. but I also knew that if I was ever going to prove that, I would also have to truly believe it, you know what I mean? And it was tough. I went to my car and cried and didn't know what we were going to do. But one thing that, and I did a lot of things wrong in my journey and I share those in the book, but one thing that I did right was through all the rejections, I actually never took them personal. And with him, mm-mm, and with him, I felt no anger toward him. And I had this big moment, so two big things happen and then I want to tell you the full circle. The whole rejection is God's protection and rejection is the universe's protection. I have to tell you what happened. This for anyone listening going through a setback or rejection right now, because I have hundreds of stories like this now after building this company and hiring over a thousand employees and all the stuff that we've done on the way. Okay, so two things. One is when I was creating this company, right, and you hear you've had people on your show talking about finding your why and finding your mission and all that kind of thing. Everyone knows about that or a lot of people have read about it. I think knowing your why is important for any goal or any dream. But two things happened. When I created the brand and I was like, why can't I find any product that works? I don't understand this. This is when I was working as a news anchor. I had this moment where I realized, oh my gosh, my whole life, even when I was a little girl growing up, all I ever saw was TV ads or magazine ads. I loved them. I loved him and I always saw the models and I always like aspired to look that way. But they all always had flawless skin. I never saw anybody that had rosacea or any type of challenges. And I realized two things that I always had aspired to look like them, but they also always made me feel not enough because you could never look like them. Yeah, what was called beautiful, I didn't see myself in, right? And so I had this whole idea, which is part of why all the retailers were saying no. in the early years, I had this idea to not just create products that work, but let me show models, all different people, every age, skin tone, skin challenge, gender identity, skin problems, side, let me just show real people and prove this product works. Let me go on QVC and prove it live. Let me show my own rosation. I just thought if people can see people that look like them, this just makes sense to me, but all the experts said it didn't. So, back to me standing there with this investor saying, I don't think people will buy makeup from someone who looks like you with your body and your weight. After I went in my car and cried, like it's rejection always still hurts. I also just remember feeling like, wow, he's passing on investing in my business. He's making a business decision because of exactly why I'm starting this company. He's just as much, I don't want to call it a victim, but just as much impacted by the definition of beauty that's out there. And he's literally passing on investing in my company because of it. And so it drove my deep why for like why I was building this company. And I took that rejection as fuel for like, oh, this has got to change, right? And for me it was like, Let me build a company where we show all types of beauty, where it wasn't even just about selling product, it wasn't about solving my own problems. And even though I want to help millions of women and all that, the real why was like, can I shift culture and beauty for every little girl out there who's about to start doubting herself and every grown person who still does. And so that drive fueled it. and not being afraid of rejection is so huge. And it's really huge for women because it prevents a lot of people from even trying. And it hurts. It always sucks. It never feels fun. But I got rejected so many times on this journey. And to finish this thought about how rejection is God's protection. So the day this dude tells me this, right? Fast forward six years, and the day that L'Oreal bought our business for $1.2 billion cash, it was all over, they had to announce it because they're a public company, so it was on the Wall Street Journal homepage, it was everywhere. And I got an email from him. He emailed me. Wow, what did he say? I got an email, he said, congratulations, I'm so, so happy for you. I was wrong.

And- had you stayed in touch in those six years?

Not with him. With everyone else that rejected me though, I did often, because I was always like, it's gonna be a yes, It's going to be yes. With him, here's, and this was six years, right, until this moment happened. But what I realized that day is when we talk about rejection is protection, I was so desperate in those moments when I wanted him to invest that we probably would have sold him the majority of the company for no money because he didn't believe in us. Two things. We found out we would have been his most successful investment in his firm's history. Also, because he didn't believe in us and also we got a lot more rejection on the way, by the time that L'Oreal acquired our company, we were still the largest shareholders. So it was like, okay, so I was so glad he didn't believe in me then. But when rejection happens, it's not easy to see it in that moment. It always does hurt, but I always believe.

I was gonna ask you, do you feel like if anyone would have said yes or invested or whatever from him or anyone before that, do you think it would have been successful if people did believe in you?

I mean, there were definitely people along the way that did believe. There were. I just believe in the timing of things and I believe in trusting our gut and going with our knowing, you know, with everything.

And what if he would have said, yeah, I'm gonna give you a million dollars or whatever it is to invest and I'm gonna take this much equity. Do you think it would have been as successful of an exit, or you think you would have been driven to serve more at a higher level with that support and with that backing? Or would it have made you more complacent in some ways during that process?

I don't know. I mean, I think the only thing that would have gotten in my way is if he owned the majority and wasn't a great partner. Because I wasn't driven by the money. Like, I wasn't. I was driven by, you know, what I know I'm born capable of giving. And also just, I loved our mission. I knew what we were doing. We were shifting culture inside the beauty industry. And, you know, there were a lot of people that believed in us along the way. And, I mean, with L'Oreal, we got a champion inside of L'Oreal three years before we actually did the deal. And she kept wanting them to like, you know, she's like, look at what this brand's doing. Look at this brand's doing. We would do meetings and get. They'd end in no. So it was. It was three years of. Of that as well until they acquired us. But, yeah, there were people that got it, and then. A lot of us learned this lesson. Once we did get into all the retailers and started doing really well, then they all believe in you.

Of course, yeah. Once you get results.

Yeah, when you make people money, they like you.

Of course. They want to be a part of your success. You know what's interesting? There's a meme online of a kid of a little child learning to walk. And it says something like, you know, when a child is learning to walk, they fall over hundreds of times. And they hit their head and they scrape their knee and they, you know, they cry and these things, but at no point do they think maybe this walking thing isn't for me. They don't say, I'm just gonna crawl for the next 80 years of my life and just crawl everywhere. They eventually keep getting up and they learn to walk. They balance, they hold on to something, right? Yeah. You've got kids and so you've seen this firsthand. They never stop trying to walk. Why do you think we as adults stop trying to walk into our dreams or into opportunities when we hit ourselves one time, we fall one time, why do you think we stop when as kids we never did when we're learning to walk?

I think I've never answered this question before so I'm just gonna pour it right out to you my, like, how I really feel about that. I think kids have a knowing inside, an instinct, they wanna walk and they just think that they're going to figure it out. They see people around them walking and they just do it. It's like a knowing and nothing's telling them not to trust themselves. and I think that as we grow up, I think that everything around us starts to tell us not to trust ourselves. Like self-doubt is so huge. We get other, and just to use my own example, and some of the stories that I share for the first time ever in the book is like, it's like when you're in the spot of all the experts telling you they don't believe in you, or it could be other people's opinions, right, telling you they don't believe in you. It could be literally no proof proof of your own dream or idea that it's gonna be successful, right? In those first three years of this journey of it cosmetics, there was no proof. It was like no signs, right? Other than women were starting to post around before and afters and spread the word online, which was great.

You were getting some sales.

Yeah, we were doing like two to three orders a day on our website.

Were you doing like, you know, were you going and sharing, showing it in person at a live events? Were you doing QVC at this point?

No, not. Big, big, big first yes. And probably the scariest, probably the biggest life and business decision, business lesson I've.

Ever learned was-- When did that come? After three years?

Yeah, after three years.

So the first three years were you going to grocery stores and-- I tried everything. Going to fairgrounds, trade shows, anything.

Anything online. We used to advertise. Any different beauty event. I mean, we would, my friends and family would walk into any Ulta or Sephora and be like, and they knew they didn't get some of it. But they're like, Can I talk to the manager? Do you carry IT Cosmetics? They're like, IT what? They go, oh, IT Cosmetics is so good.

And they would try to hustle for us. It was very Sarah Blakely-esque where her.

Friends would go and like place orders and make it all, yeah, sell out. And it was that. It was just trying to hustle. And the other thing is all the no's, like every time Sephora or QVC or Ulta would say no, like that was one thing is that I didn't take it personal, right? That was one, I did a lot of things wrong. There was one thing I did right. And the second they would say no, it hurt, it sucked, obviously. But it's like, okay, I would literally, Louis, I would decide to believe it's going to be a yes. And I behaved accordingly. Like I would say, okay, thank you. But one day it will be a yes. And I'm so excited for when that happens. And then what I would do is every time we get a press placement or we would be launching a new product or whatever, I would send that buyer who kept saying no. And I'd be like, Great news! We just got, you know, in this magazine or whatever. And like one day when your customers get to try this in their store, they're gonna love it. And I think they probably thought it was crazy, but I just decided to believe.

You've gotta be relentless in following up too. You can't just hope that they find out about you. You've gotta constantly be following up the way you did, right? They're not gonna look at the magazine and see it. They're not gonna see your sales numbers unless you tell them over and over again.

Yeah, and I know you're big on LinkedIn and everything. I would literally scour LinkedIn for any person who worked at Sephora or Ulta or KvC.

Friend them and message them.

Everything, and then try to send them a sample. I mean, it was like everybody. It was, and we couldn't afford to hire anybody. So we got so lean and so scrappy that in the early years, my middle name's Marie. And so Marie got her own email address. So Marie at cosmetics.com was like head of customer service. And I would pitch all the Good Morning America, I'd be like, Our founder's available for, you know what I mean? It was just like hustling and trying to figure it out. And every time I would check in with my gut though, no matter how many times I got knocked down, like I still, even though there's no proof around me, I still kept feeling like this was what I was supposed to do. and I made the decision to trust it through those years of no proof around me. That's the hard thing. I feel like when you talk about why does a little kid keep trying to walk but why do most of us just give up? I feel like so many people either have never heard their own gut or haven't heard it in a long time. And then sometimes we hear it and we don't trust ourselves, right? And instead of putting our own intuition on a pedestal, we put things like other people's opinions or what our partner is telling us to do or our own self-doubt or what the experts are saying or the lack of proof of success around us.

How do you think we learn to trust ourselves more?

I think that we have to want to. I think we have to make the decision that we need to want to. and that's hard because you know what? The truth is it's way easier to stay in our comfort zone. It's way easier to make the circle around us happy and comfy and not fearful. It's way easy and I think that chips away at our soul when we do that. I think every person knows, like I think we know deep down inside if we're created for more and we're supposed to give more, if we have more inside of us to give or to serve or to love or to live, I think we all know that too. deep down inside. And I think that if we don't do something about it, I think it chips away at our soul and I think we end up literally talking ourselves out of our own truth and literally never becoming the person we're born to be. I know that sounds dramatic, but I think it's true.

And.

I think that's the easy route. So I think the first thing is you have to want to.

Yeah, absolutely. you gotta take a lot of courage to overcome your fears and go into that stuff too. I'm curious, the first time you went on QVC, what was that experience like for you? Were you, you felt like you had, okay, a few years of building confidence under your belt or were you extremely nervous right before that first experience?

Literally everything was on the line in that moment and that's what made it hard. So you know how you can like know your values and know your why and know all these things and you think you're gonna like stick by them and live them and then all of a sudden they're tested. I think like all of us have had that happen to us and that you know after after three years of hearing no, we got one shot. We got a yes and we got one shot on QVC. It's a crazy story. So I go into it in the book on how it happened and how we finally got the yes and all this stuff but what it meant though is we had one shot in this thing.

If it didn't sell, you're never coming back.

You're never coming back. and it's live, so there's no script. And QVC is, as you know, but maybe not everyone knows, it's a live television channel to broadcast to 100 million homes. And you're measured in dollars per minute. And so their air time, it's not like a store where you walk in and you can see thousands of products. Only one product can be live on the air at that moment. So you're not just you're competing with beauty brands. You're competing with Apple iPhone and Dyson vacuum and Vitamix, all the stuff to hit a certain sales. So we got one shot and 10 minutes and it was a consignment deal. So what that meant was we had to manufacture all the product, pay for it, et cetera, get it all shipped in there. They don't buy any of it. No, not in beauty at the time. And then whatever, and then if it didn't sell, we would take it all back without being paid, go out of business. And at the time we were doing just, as you know, two to three orders a day on our website. And what I learned was we'd have to sell over 6,000 units of our product in a 10-minute window to hit their sales goal or not come back. And so, Paulo and I together, and you know Paulo, which is I say his name, applied for his 22 SBA loans and got rejected. It was the 23rd one in California actually that gave us an SBA loan just to cover the cost of the inventory for this one shot on QVC. So we, you should never accept a purchase order you can't afford to lose, but at this point three years in it was like...

It was like make it or break it.

Make it or break it.

We're going all in or we're dying on the sword.

Exactly, and so we said yes and did everything. We hired third-party consultants and this is where everything I believed in was put on the line. And they're awesome and they help a lot of people, right? So they help people on QVC and retail stores.

They gave you a different strategy that wasn't what you wanted to do probably.

Right, exactly. They are awesome. This is what you need and you.

Need this perfect model and they need to be speaking this way, they need to look a certain way.

Because that's what had always been done and That's what it always worked. And so they wanted the best for me. They were smart and wanted me to win. And they're like, okay, here's what you need to do. Use models with perfect skin, all this. And I would say, okay, but that's not why I created this. And what if, what if I, and this was pre-YouTube exploding. So I'm like, what if I go on air and just take my makeup off on live TV and show my rosacea? And what if I put models, that all different ages and sizes, skin challenges, skin tones, everything. And they were mortified. They're like, no, this isn't gonna work. Yeah, and we were like, you're gonna lose it all. And I'd say, okay, but if I'm sitting at home and I'm watching and I don't see someone that looks like me, how do I know the product is gonna work for me? But it's really hard when your gut is telling you one thing, experts are telling you another. It's like, I couldn't try it both ways. So I flew out To QVC a week before our airing, our one shot, and this might sound crazy to you, but I got a rental car. I sat all alone in the QVC parking lot for a week, every day, just like watching the front door of the building, knowing the next time I go in, like, I'm either gonna walk out with out of business or with, you know. And I sat there and I prayed and I cried. It felt really heavy, to be honest, because I didn't-- It's a big moment. A big moment because it was like, okay, I'm not nervous for TV, but it was like every-- it felt like everything was on the line. And I tried to imagine who my customer was, who was watching it. Like, why am I doing what I'm doing? All these things. I remember at one point channeling Oprah. I was like, okay, I remember this time when Oprah was obsessed with the color purple. She told the story on her show. She wanted it so bad that it consumed her and she ran around a track and just saying I surrender all and ask God to take it from her because she just couldn't carry it herself. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna try that. So I sat in the car, like literally singing I surrender all and crying. I tried, I also was imagining, you might do this, I was imagining like, okay, Olympians, I think that they imagine, like what happened. Visualize. Yeah, yeah. And so I was visualizing the story sold out sign coming up across the screen. I was, you know, all those things. I was sitting in the car just doing everything that I could. And I also just had this moment where I imagined this woman sitting at home and if I was gonna be blessed enough for her to turn her TV on for five seconds, like what did I wanna stand for, right? It was like, okay, if she's gonna give me her precious time, even if she buys nothing, I'd rather her look at the TV and see me showing real women and calling them beautiful and meaning it, because you can't fake authenticity, meaning it. And I'd rather have her for a moment feel like she's seen and like she matters and sell nothing, then stand for nothing and sell a shitload of product and hit a sales goal. And so it was this moment where I just kinda knew. But sometimes we know what the right thing is, but it's also the hard thing and it's scary.

It's like being in the wrong relationship and your gut's telling you, get out, but everyone's like, oh, but they look great on paper.

And my parents are happier this way.

Yeah, yeah, you're like, ah, but I'm torn.

Yes, yes, I feel like everything comes down to our knowing and trusting it in life. And so many people are like, oh, how'd you sell your business for whatever, a billion dollars? Oh, no, that's not the victory. The victory is if we're trusting ourself and our knowing and where we're supposed to be on our journey. Do you know what I mean? That's the victory. And it's like every time I don't do that, make big mistakes. And when I look back, and that's when I stayed in wrong relationships, that's when I kept employees on too long. That's when all those things. So I'm walking in the QC building, and I go into the studio, and there's cameras like we see right now. I know that the second the on-air light goes on, it's Go Time. Go Time. Live to 100 million homes. and there's this 10-minute clock. And here's what I learned right before, okay? I learned, oh, you're not guaranteed 10 minutes.

Oh, if it's not selling in five, see ya.

See ya. Exactly. So you might be a minute or two in, and if you're not in real time doing well, hitting the goals, it jumps. Your clock might go from eight minutes, boom, you're down at two minutes, and you're like, and if you try to sell, nothing sells. You know what I mean?

It's just like-- and if you're forcing it, then people can feel it.

You feel it and you cannot fake authenticity. That's the thing. So it was like, okay, how do.

You get sales in two minutes if they're not seeing sales when you haven't even told the story of the product?

I know, exactly. You have to be so just, I know, I know. And I had prepared so hard for this.

Consultants taught you how to pitch and how to position and tell a story within a certain timeframe and everything.

Yeah, and I literally thought, I walked in there thinking, okay, here's what I'm gonna say off the top, here's how I'm gonna do this. And I didn't listen to consultants in terms of models. I'm like, I'm gonna show real women all those things, but I'm like, here's how I'm gonna do this demonstration on my wrist, all the stuff I had planned out. And then I did my host meeting.

A few minutes before the show, and.

She thanked me for my ideas and said, okay, but here's what we're gonna do. So literally scrapped everything. So we're not doing that.

Nope.

And I had, in that moment, I.

Had to trust her, but I also.

Had to just I know, but they're so good.

They're pros.

They know. They're such pros. Yeah, they know.

So you had a co-host with you?

Yeah, the QVC host. And then I'm there with the product. Yeah, yeah, like the entrepreneur, the founder. And she was amazing and all that. But at that moment, I remember the 10-minute clock, and I remember it was like 9:59, 9:58. And I remember, feeling my heart racing. That is it. Yeah, and it's so gross, but I remember like sweat. I remember feeling sweat, and you would talk about how much we love Sarah Blakely. I was wearing two pairs of Spanx and I remember feeling the sweat like dripping. I was like, okay, these Spanx are gonna save me, 'cause it's not gonna come through my dress. But then I also remember thinking like, I have to not make this about me or I'm done. It's like, okay, this is about how do I wanna shift culture and beauty? Who is that woman watching? Like, if she's gonna bless me with her time, how am I gonna Am I going to show up for her? And I remember this moment where my bare face came up on national TV. And then I remember walking to the models, and I was shaking like a leaf. So I had planned this demonstration.

Like 100 times in the mirror. This is the way it's gonna look. I'm gonna wipe this thing off. I'm gonna put this on, I'm gonna smile.

Yes, and I was-- it was so good in my bathroom mirror. And then I'm trying to do this on national television. And this is my hand, literally. And the host grabs it and she's like, Thank you, Sugar. And she took over and we walked to all the models. And I remember toward the very end of, I think it was like a minute left, and she's like, the deep shade is sold out or the tan shade's almost gone or something like that.

Like what?

Yeah, and I was like, and then I remember at the 10-minute mark, the sold-out sign came up across the screen, just like I had envisioned it in the car, in the parking lot. The sold-out sign came up. I started crying. Yeah, and they cut, and I see Paulo coming running, my husband coming running through the double doors at the studio, and I'm like sobbing, Lou, I'm like, Real women have spoken! And he's like, we're not going bankrupt! And it was just like, and I was just like, ahh! And that one airing turned into five that year, and then 101 the next year, and then we did- 100? Yeah, and we did over 250 live shows a year for- that's crazy. Eight years, yes, I did over a thousand, live QVC shows myself, but we also built the largest beauty brand in QVC's history. And it is right now, at this moment that you and I are talking, it's right now still the largest beauty brand in QVC's history. And I only share that because it was three years of them saying, no, you're not the right fit. All those things, right? So it's like, at the end of.

The day, nobody can tell you you're not the right fit. Yeah, and you also gotta know the.

Timing of maybe if you've done it.

Three years earlier, you wouldn't have been ready. Maybe if you're pitching it, you would have bombed and you would have never had another chance. You never would have another chance and you would have been done. So sometimes the delayed of people saying no is good for you to figure out, okay, how can I become better? How can I be prepared? How can I sell more? How can I do these other things? So that's what I think we got to think about as well is, you know, how are we going to set ourselves up for something when someone says no?

Yeah, and to not be afraid of it. I mean, to not be afraid of rejection, to not be afraid of doing it imperfectly, any of that stuff is so important. Oh my gosh, if I ever got afraid of, it never was easy, but if I ever got afraid of rejection, I would have been done. Like, done. Would have never, hopefully had, you know, I hope I had an impact on the beauty industry, that would have never happened. I would have never built a billion dollar business, you know what I mean? I think it's huge. And I think it comes down to this is like just really trusting your knowing. You know what I mean? Every time somebody hurt me or said no or whatever, I would go back and be like, okay, another expert said no. Like, is this, am I wrong? Is my gut wrong?

Right?

We start to, but every time I would get still and just know. And you know, for me, it's how I've never heard God talk to me, but like I feel For me, faith is part of that. I hear it through my intuition. For other people, it's the universe. It's everything. And I just think, you know, you mentioned relationships. I think that we all know if we're in the right relationship.

In our gut, we know.

In our gut, we know. And I mean, I don't think I have a single girlfriend in my life, including myself, who hasn't gone through a relationship where you know He's like sketchy, you know, and you're like, oh, maybe his phone did break for three days. Maybe, you know it didn't break, you know. We all know. And I just think that we start to turn up the volume on all this noise in our life, how busy we are, other people's opinions, what our inner circle says, all the things, and we have the mute button on our own gut, and it goes on for so long. that we start to not learn how to hear it. And so, you know, for me, and it's not, and I believe everyone has a knowing, and I believe it's always right. And I think that like learning how to listen to it, how to trust it is a journey. It's a process.

I'm curious about, do you do that.

In life though, like with people, with friendships? Do you feel a knowing?

No, I feel it, yeah.

You feel it right?

It's usually pretty quick for me, you know, it's an intuition. But I'm also, I also research people pretty extensively and I look at everything. I look at things that they don't even think I might be looking at. And I'd learn a lot about people by doing research. So before I even speak to them, I'll kind of get a gut instinct. And then they really need to show me whether convince me that I'm right or convincing that I'm wrong within connecting with them. And sometimes I've been wrong, very few, maybe two or three times out of thousands of people where I was like, oh, the things I saw about them, you know, I prejudged them in a way that wasn't accurate. And I took responsibility for that. But most of the time you can get a sense from people whether you watch a couple videos or just see what they're sharing or how they communicate. So it's funny.

I just get a feeling. Yeah, you know, I've met so many people that are amazing on video, and then I just get a feeling, and I'm like, okay, you know, and Do.

I want them in my life that much? Yeah.

Well, and I just think that, you know, listen, I think every single one of us, you know, has miscalculations and misjudgments and makes mistakes and all that. And I just, I don't believe we're our mistakes. I believe we're our intentions, you know?

Absolutely. We can shift our intentions in any moment.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

I'm curious about a personal question. Have you felt More self-doubt before QVC or right now?

Before QVC, but I still feel it now. Yeah. Yeah, it's still a journey. You know, I think that there's so many areas in my life I figured out how to like, you know, overcome it, how to turn down the volume on it, how to believe in myself, and I try to apply those all the time. It's a lifelong journey. For me, believing where I come from doesn't determine where I'm going. Of turning down the volume on past mistakes or on miscalculations or that kind of thing. And believing that, you know, at the end of the day, I think all of us, no matter where we're at in life, on a journey of it. Do you know what I mean? And you know, one thing that happened to me that I share in the book for the first time with Oprah's Blessing, she read it cover to cover. She blessed what I shared in the book. But having said that, I talk about, you know, the first time I ever met her, and then I talk about having lunch with her for the first time at her house, just one-on-one, me and her.

So, I was there the day you met her, right?

You were there first time.

We were at an event. And you met her, I didn't meet her. But what was that like for you?

I mean, from the time I was a little girl sitting in my living room, right? I would sit in my living room watching Oprah every day, Monday through Friday, and her sharing her vulnerability, her sharing her, you know, all the parts of her, not just the perfect part, right? All the parts. Like she was my mentor who I'd never met. You know what I mean? Like she helped me believe like oh, maybe my dreams are possible, like my whole life. So I don't get starstruck and with with them at Cosmetics, you know, and growing and then especially the L'Oreal acquisition, you know, you have a lot of celebrities that want deals. They want makeup deals. So just because of that, you meet so many. So I never, I think everyone's human. I think we all have the same same doubt, same fear, same insecurities.

Are they gonna like me? Do they see me? Do they think I'm interesting?

We're all the same. So I knew all that, right? And so the day that I met Oprah was at that event in LA and it was a surprise. I didn't know it was happening. It was a long story. So I go into how it happened in the book, too. But I ended up going into her green room. We were just me and her and I had never met her and she's like, Miss Kern. And I'm like, Wow. Freaking out. I was so out of my body in that thing. I literally just prayed for the right words and all I could say was like, Can you let me know if I can ever be of service to you? Like, I didn't know what, like, I didn't, it was, it was, it's the whole thing. And after I met her, I went and spent like three days writing an email to her. Like, how do I even, and so I talk about this this whole process and talk about the whole thing. And I ended up getting invited to lunch at her house. And so we- Wanna wanna with a.

Small group or- One in, yeah.

I didn't know until I showed up, but I spent days like looking at all the things I was gonna, like how do you bring her a gift?

A gift.

Yeah.

The woman who has it all.

Yeah, yeah. And so I won't give it up, but what I brought her is so crazy. It's so crazy. And it'll make everyone who reads it feel good.

And you get a car.

No, I know. Can you bring? And anyhow, after the day we had lunch, we spent a few hours together. And again, only sharing this because she has blessed it. She read the book cover to cover and gave me her blessing to share this story. But I left her house and as I was leaving, she gave me her cell phone number. And she said, you know, here's my number. Call me anytime.

She's like, you put the number in the book?

Oh my gosh.

No, but she said, It's on page 100.

And this is recent, right? So she says, well within the past couple years, she says, you can call me anytime. Call me anytime. And I was like, Thank you, and we did a video and all these things. To this day, Louis, you've never called her.

You've never called her.

I text her. I email her.

I would never call either.

Really? Okay, help me figure this out.

I would have only texted and just be like, Hey, what can I do for you? How can I serve? Yeah.

Well, and I realized, so if I have a show, so I did a show with her friend Gail, and I'll ask her for feedback or this or that. And she's like, Do you want the truth? And I'm like, yeah, please. And I'll text her, I'll call, but every time I text her and I email her, but every time I want to share something with her, even just anything, I don't call. I haven't called to this day. I know. And I was trying to figure out why haven't I? I'm the person that literally in my heart and soul managed to go from Denny's waitress to building an entrepreneur because I learned to believe in myself and believe I belong in the room and overcome rejection, overcome fear, but I am still a work in progress, right? And I'm like, I'm not calling Oprah because at a deep, deep, deep, deep, deep level, I still don't think my vibration is high enough to like, Be with hers. And I know that's a lie. I know it's a lie.

You've never called her.

Never called her. I know.

You should call her right now.

Oh my gosh. I know but- you- should call her right now.

You should. I think it'd be powerful to see if she picks up. Just say, hey, I appreciate you. That's it. Don't ask for anything. Just call her and see if you want to.

See, if I do it, it needs to feel like it's the exact- Do.

It when you feel ready. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm throwing it out there, throwing it out there. Just to tell her what you appreciate.

Do you have these moments? Because I think maybe people, and by the way, I know literally, I know any time we feel like we're not worthy of being in the room with someone else, of being at their level, it's a lie we're telling ourselves. I know that, right? And even for me, it's still a work in progress for everything. And I was ashamed and embarrassed when I realized, why I hadn't called her. Do you know what I mean? And like, I'm the best freaking friend and I have everyone, right? Like, I wouldn't have written a word unless she had blessed it in the book. Like, I'm so loyal to people. So it's like, you know what I mean? She told you the truth. I know.

A couple years ago.

I know, yes.

On your drive home, you should call. Yes. And just say, hey, I was just thinking about you and I appreciate you. Don't ask for anything. Just say, hey, just wanted to see how you're doing. I appreciate you.

Is there anything you're afraid of or you haven't done like that? You haven't done it yet? Would you call her?

You know, I'm the type of guy that I'm similar to you, but not because I wouldn't call her. It would just be, I have friends who I know are so busy, who are extremely successful, and I just see how busy they are that I don't want to bother calling them, that I'll just text them or send them a voice message or a video message. So, hey, I'm here for you. If you need anything, let me we know. Yeah. And it's just, I know they're easier to respond over texts and maybe they would pick up or not, but it's.

Just, what are areas you have doubt that you struggle with dad and stuff? Have you, like, mastered it all?

No, I haven't mastered anything, I don't think. That's why I'm always learning. But things I doubt before I answer that, I want to make sure I close the loop on Oprah, and then I'll answer that question. What is the greatest advice she has taught you from the first time you met her till now?

So her advice was Maya Angelou's advice, which she shared over and over. She said she's learned this lesson a few times, which is, you know, when people show you who they are, believe them the first time, which is Maya's words. And it's actually something so hard to do. You know, I go into the book, in my book about a lot of stuff from being like the rug being pulled out from underneath me learning I was adopted in my late 20s by surprise. There's so many things I go into this book on about how to handle and they happen in our personal lives and in relationships and all that.

You didn't know you were adopted until.

You were in your 20s? Yeah, until my late 20s. I found out by accident. Yeah, and then I went on a five-year search of trying to find my birth mom. And so it was like five years of thousands of women calling thousands of women by this name.

Yeah, and I go in and I feel like You know. Did you ever meet your mom?

I have, and then that's a whole thing. I know you're, I think you're halfway through the book, right? Yeah, yeah, there's some stuff in there and I share it, I've never, 95% of this book is stuff I've never shared before. Personal lessons, professional lessons.

What was the first thing you said to your mom? Your birth mom.

It's a story, Louis. You have to like, the first thing that happens after five years of searching for her. Oh my gosh. Yeah, after five years of searching for her and watching the adoption shows where people go running to each other, like in the fields, that's not happening.

That didn't happen.

That didn't happen. I, when I finally found her and reached out to her via email, with getting her info finally, it's a long story, so I share how it happened in the book.

You email her.

I email her, and the day I did, everything disappeared. Her social media, everything was gone.

Shut up so you were you followed her you could see her stuff online.

Facebook or whatever 24 hours of finding her I found out everything gone like.

LinkedIn Facebook whatever Twitter.

Yeah, and I didn't know why when was how were you in my 30s.

30S wow yeah, yeah, it's like a couple years ago, right?

Yeah, yeah, and so I am and so at the time it felt like she gave me up again. Oh, man yeah, and I talk about that process of... And it's a beautiful story though that's still unfolding right now. And I talk about how we mend relationships in our lives and how we handle things when we feel... Because you know, my parents who raised me didn't ever want me to know.

Did you feel abandoned by them by never telling you?

A little bit. I also felt like it was like the rug just got pulled out from underneath me and I went on this journey of like, who am I?

We're like living a lie. Yeah.

They weren't being-- Exactly.

I understand they're trying to protect you.

Or whatever, but it's like eventually you'd find out, right? I mean, I don't know. I mean, now with 23 and me, it's like, but yeah, I mean, yeah, they never-- it was a total accident. So I talk about that process, too, of like, how do you handle that when somebody-- like, I love my mom who raised me more than anyone on the planet, and that's who I thought was the closest person to me in my life. I mean, she still is, but how do you-- What do you do when you feel like someone betrays you? And so it's been a journey. There's so much in this book, that's why I was laughing in the beginning. I'm like, oh, you're halfway through. Okay, get ready.

Have you felt like you've, I guess, healed that part of your past from your-- your mother that raised you. Yeah.

And yeah, I mean-- I think that any time we face abandonment of any type, I think that it's a life journey of figuring out how it's showing up, right? And so it's interesting, like on my journey, if I were to say my biggest weakness, and I built it Cosmetics over a thousand employees, my biggest weakness was not firing people soon enough.

So hard.

Because I didn't want to abandon them. Even when they mistreated me in some cases.

I know.

It's hard, right? And I kept talking people around in relationships or in friendships or in my company because I didn't want to abandon them. So it's like I'm aware of it. Our stuff always shows up, right? And then we work through it. It's hard. It's hard.

Yeah.

Yeah, this is a book.

Do you feel like you're still recovering from all that or do you feel.

Like it's-- I do.

Really?

Yeah. I think it's a lifelong journey. Yeah, yeah, I'm working hard on boundaries on, you know, it's, yeah.

So you've been in touch with your biological mom many times? Yeah. You just have a relationship?

We do now. We do now.

It's like a once a month you talk, it's every once in a while.

She's on FaceTime this morning with my daughter.

Really? Wow.

Yeah, yeah, and we're building it. And here's the thing is, We never know what someone else is walking through, right? We just never, right? And it's like even with our own friends and family sometimes, even when we think we really know them. And so this has been a journey of like getting to know each other from scratch, of me understanding all of her decisions.

Do you understand them or is it?

More, more now. I do, I do, yeah. And you know, It's, it's, maybe you wouldn't make those choices, but- I said something, was it, Louis, you said something that's so powerful about forgiveness, right? It's like when we don't forgive, it's like we're just hurting ourselves, right? What are the words you use?

They're so good. It was recent I heard you say it. I mean, I don't know if it's my quote, but I've heard so many different things about forgiveness. I mean, it's like holding onto resentment and not forgiving is like drinking poison and someone else expecting to feel the pain. or to be hurt or to die. You know, it's like when you're resenting someone or angry at someone and you haven't forgiven, it's like you're drinking the poison.

Yes.

Hoping they feel that pain. But you're the one who's suffering. Yeah. They're off and doing whatever they want to do in their life. Yeah. Your biological mom, you know, was off.

Doing whatever and was hoping that you had the best life, I'm assuming.

But yeah. And believe she made the right decision.

Of course.

And her, yeah. In her mind, she was right. You know, with her story and her life situation, she was probably right in her mind. So, for sure. You have to get into that frame. It may not seem right, but you have to get in that person's perspective and you may not agree with it, but that's okay.

And forgiving is the only way to be free. It's so true. It's the only way. It's hard.

Do you feel like you've fully forgiven everyone in your past? Biological parents for not telling you the truth?

I think so.

I mean, I mean, parents are raised. You're not telling the truth. I'm abandoning you or whatever it may be.

Yeah, there's, you know, my, my mom who gave me up for adoption. She was with my dad one time ever, one night, and they were in college, actually. And it's interesting because I grew up with a family where no one had gone to college. So I always thought my whole life I was the first person in my family and all that. And my my mom did go to college, and it was her and my birth father, and they were together one time ever, and he doesn't know, and she can't remember his name. --No way. --Yeah. And so, --So, you don't know your birth dad either? --I don't know him yet. --Shut up. --And so I talk about, yeah, one of the things I talk about in this book is what happens when you.

Don'T know where you come from.

--Oh my gosh, there's no certainty. --There's no certainty. And I had a really big spiritual moment. And you know, I talk a lot also in the book about my whole journey of being raised with faith and then going through a season, a multi-year season of God doubt. And how- what do you talk about?

Self-doubt, body doubt, God doubt.

Yeah. Yeah, and I kind of go there and you know, it's been a journey. So, but you know, I believe I trust. I trust in our journey. You know what I mean?

I think we're all-- so, Berkman doesn't remember who he is. Right.

She doesn't remember his name. And have you been out of trace back DNA?

Yeah, it's, I'm in the process.

I've done 23andMe ancestry. I'm sure it's a matter of time before it happens. Oh my gosh, this is crazy. But so far, no, I haven't found him. But I have this big epiphany. I mean, this like true knowing. One night when, because Louis, like I go through, you're probably this way too, just looking at the business you've built and everything that you're doing with School of Greatness and everything is like when I'm into something, I'm like all in.

Obsessive.

Obsessive.

I gotta find the answer.

So like my husband would get worried about me because I'd be up all night.

I'm like a dog with my phone like that.

Yeah, and this has gone on for years.

No way.

Every time I see someone on television, I think they look like me, I'll Google him and see, did he go to this school or did he... all those things. And it's gone on for years. And I had this big moment, like this deep knowing that is not going to make sense to a lot of people, but it will to some, where I realized, oh, I actually know who my dad is. How do I say this the right way? I know God is my Father, so I know my Father. Do you know what I mean? And so at this this point, it's just like, okay, who's my dad on earth? And I bet you all find him too. And yeah, so...

This is crazy.

The book is crazy. It's a lot. It's stuff I've never shared. And I think sometimes, you know, what I realize is for 10 years, I've done all this stuff with IT Cosmetics and been the first woman to hold a CEO title in L'Oreal's 100+ year history, all these things. But sometimes when we're doing this this role, I don't want to say we hide behind it. What I realize is if I don't share all these things, then someone else going through them who doesn't know how to get through them may feel alone or struggle more or any of that.

I have so many questions. Did you connect with your mom, your biological mother, when you were before it cosmetics or in the process of it.

Or Yeah, we had launched it, but we're having no success. Wow. Yeah, so I met her before that big moment on QVC.

Did you ever think maybe one time, like, this is gonna be so successful that my dad's gonna find out about me and approach me and reach out to me?

I have those thoughts. I had those thoughts, like, you know, going on QVC because I did over a thousand live shows, and, you know, even now if I do, like, a big keynote at an event where there's, like, a hundred thousand people and that, you know what I mean? I think that. I think what if he actually knows of me but has no idea I'm his daughter? That's crazy, isn't it?

Oh my gosh, that'd be nuts. Yeah, yeah.

And so I'm just trying to trust, I mean, I still obsessively search, I still all those things and have done the 23andMe, you know. There's no link yet to someone else in 23andMe.

I know, it's the craziest thing.

There's like fourth cousin, like, I don't know if you've done it before, the 20,000. Okay, so you know how you get the DNA relatives and there's like 70,000 people that are your third or fourth cousin where it's so difficult, but on the highest one where you're really like really connected, I have all these people on my mom's side, but on my birth dad's side, it's all the third or fourth cousins, thousands of them still.

Oh my God. So I'm waiting.

Waiting for him to do the test. Yeah, or somebody related to him in like a, because it could be a Sibling or and you know, yeah another child or whatever.

This is crazy. Yeah, gosh that'd be so nuts. Yeah, I want to hear how this.

Story ends okay, I keep it updated.

That's good. Your mom your biological mom is in your life. Now is your the mother that raised you and your biological mom. Did they connect?

Yeah, really?

Yeah, so did they know each other when?

No, so they've never they've never met. Yeah, and it's a journey like I.

Learned So she had you and it's like two days later someone comes. That is crazy.

My parents got me.

And they never met each other.

They never met each other and it was private and my birth mom had used a different name on all the paperwork which is why it took me so many years to eventually find her. But eventually they met and the three of us met and my birth mom brought three bracelets, kind of like Wonder Woman style gold bracelets, one for me, one for her, one for my mom and they had belonged to her mom who had passed away. It was beautiful. My mom who raised me, you know, I was worried would she be okay that I found my birth mom, all those things. And my mom who raised me thanked my birth mom, Rosemary, when she met her and just said, Thank you for giving me the best gift that's ever happened to me. Yeah, and we were just sobbing. And so it was beautiful, you know, and I mean, I'm glad I didn't give up because it was, you know, five years it was and listen, like when you get a phone call and someone's like, hi, do you... right? It's like you think it's a telemarketer and you hang up. And so it was like five years of me calling, you know, tens of thousands of women with like either a similar first name to the paperwork or similar last name and just getting hung up on for five years. What would you ask them? Hi, is your name Rosemary? Like is this Rosemary? Oh, I have a relative, it could be all different things, but like I'm looking for a relative of mine actually named Rosemary and da da da, It was like click, click, click. I tried all different stuff. And the part that I never knew was, was one of those women who hung up on me, her. It was her. It wasn't. But I didn't know. But every moment for five years, it was like, is this person who's about to answer gonna be my mom?

How did you finally, did she pick up or did you found her on social media or something?

There's a search agent. So there's a television show, right? Yeah, television show.

An FBI agent who could find someone.

Yes, and so Paulo is like, can I submit your, I don't even know he, 'cause we have, my husband and I, total opposite television. Like nothing in common, right? You and him are, like, he's like, He's watching sports again. He's watching this, da-da-da-da-da. And I'm like, oh, it's on the Bachelor. And like, you know what I mean? Anyways, so I didn't even realize he knew I was watching these adoption shows, like I DVR all of them, whatever. And so there was one where it was called the Locator, I believe. And anyways, he wrote into the show. He said, Can I write your story into the show? And I go, yeah, of course. And he wrote in and they didn't pick me for the show. But then a search agency called and said, For a fee, we can search for it. And I thought, oh, what a scam. But it ended up not being.

How long did it take them? A week?

A couple weeks. And I'd been searching five years.

Oh, man. She just be like, I would have paid this right away.

And like as a journalist, I know how to find everything, but because her name wasn't the right name, they were able to trace all kinds of stuff back and actually-- Wow.

Yeah. This is fascinating.

I feel like Louis, I feel like every person though has situations in life where we feel like somebody we trust pulls the rug out from underneath us, and it could even just be a relationship, for someone we're dating or a friend, someone we're friends with 20 years and they betray us and we all have these situations. And so I felt like sharing what happened and like how I got through it and just all the things. You know, I think that we all share this journey together. You know what I mean? Absolutely. And we're all connected.

Absolutely. Yeah. What do you want people to know about exiting your dream, making it successful, having a big exit, over a billion dollars, being on the Forbes list, and having this kind of, you know, mark of success. What do you want people to know about what life is like when you create that for yourself? Is it everything's easy and perfect? What are the other challenges that come with the success and the financial abundance and the credibility? Are there different challenges you face now What is that like? For people that are wanting to create that for themselves, they see your story, they know your journey, and they want to create that for their dream, what do they need to know that's on the other side?

I think that I believe it's possible for people to accomplish their dreams. I think if they make that decision that it is, I think that.

Is.

It Ed Mylett, I believe, said this famous saying that when you eventually arrive at a destination, you still bring you with you, right? And it's easy to always hear people say things like that, like, oh, money can't buy happiness. This, that, you're like, yeah, it would for me. You think those things, right? You're like, whatever, right? You hear all those things, but it's all true. It's like wherever, whatever big goal you accomplish, you still bring you with you.

Your crap.

Right? Your crap. Your insecurities, your same family, your same... I mean, people can change their family, but you're still you, right? It's like you bring you with you. And so, yeah, some of it's so fun and you know, and you have this same journey too, where you are in situations or experiences that are different than where you were raised. Absolutely. Right? Like some of the things I've had the blessing of being part of and are nothing like how I was raised. And those are fun and amazing and yet I still bring me with me, right? And so like to me, that's the journey for all of us. It's not, oh, can I sell my company for a billion dollars? Oh, can I get 50 billion zillion downloads? All the things, right? It's like on this journey, like who am I? And am I stepping into all of who I am? And am I learning to trust myself? And am I learning Right? To become the person I'm born to be, like that's the victory. It's never, because the accomplishments don't change anything. Like, you know what I mean? You still, to use those words, you still bring you with you. So, what's it been like for you then?

What's been the biggest challenge to, I guess, overcome since exiting and being where you're at?

Yeah.

That you didn't overcome during that 10-year journey.

Yeah, I mean most of my friends are still the same.

That's good.

Yeah, still the same. I didn't know that the exit would be public. We knew like two days before that they would announce the purchase price and when that happened everything changed. So meaning, you know, you hear from a lot of people you haven't heard from in years saying, you know, you pay my mortgage, oh yeah, medical bills, all that. And so you go through this journey where you wanna say, you know, you go through figuring out, you know, like I've learned the lesson that if you do give, never give alone, just give a gift. Just give a gift, right? 'Cause you don't- you- never get it back. Never, yeah, yeah.

And you'll resent that person.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you don't want any of that. And even if you do give it back, it's still like, yeah, no, no, no. It's like all those things. But, you know, one of the biggest things I learned is just, I remember when Forbes called for the first time and called the office and said, you,'re gonna be on this list, right? And I told the head of PR, I'm not, no way. I do not want to be on that list. Just tell them no, no thank you, I appreciate it. And then they called back, emailed back and said, We publish a list of, the list is called America's Richest Self-Made Women. And they're like, you,'re gonna, we have enough data from bankers and lawyers. I'm like, how do you get that?

They're gonna post it whether you want it or not.

Yeah, yeah, whether I want it or not. And I was so mortified and so like, right? And so for three years in a row, the last three years I've been on this list, and here's the story that happened to me is every year I would either hide it or if I was gonna go to an event and they were gonna, and it was on the bio they were reading, I made them delete the word richest and put in most successful. Successful, right? So it was the Forbes most successful self-made women's list in all the bios, in the bio, like everything online, everything. And I had this huge epiphany. Why?

By discounting what you've created.

Yep. Well, and here's the thing. And see, okay, how do I say this? So many women, we are taught, right? We are taught to dim our light. We are taught I had this huge moment, Louis, where I'm like, okay, I've got to figure this shit out because I have a responsibility now for other women, for other girls, for other people out there. And I was realizing I was dimming my own light and calling it being humble and calling it being gracious and calling it all those things, right? And- and- what an Olympian who wins.

A gold medal say? I didn't win the gold.

I know.

I'm not an Olympian.

I'm not a gold medalist. Yeah, well, and here's the thing is I had this big epiphany, like, wait a minute. Like, okay, all growing up because Oprah showed her vulnerability, all the things that she showed, like, because she shared that her background wasn't perfect, because all those things, like it helped me believe where I come from doesn't have to determine where I'm going, right? Because I saw an example of what's possible. And I sat there and I thought, wait a minute, every time I scroll social media, Even when I see successful business women, right? Think about so many of our friends, your friends, people in LA, people that are in an entertainment, for example, you might see the woman way more successful than the guy she's dating or married to, whatever. And he's like in a business suit in front of a plane and she's like lower than him physically and like, you know, But she's also a businesswoman doing her thing, but you almost never see it out there. And I kind of had this moment where I'm like me hiding the stuff about Forbes, me wanting to avoid it, me calling it humble. All I'm doing is dimming my own light and I am potentially robbing other girls or women of seeing another example of what's possible for them. You know what I mean? And so it's been a journey even of things like that, of coming to terms with things like that. And I now believe the Forbes richest self-made women's list, it is still even weird to say that, but I believe in the power of that because it's showing not just other women, every person. Oh, here's these women that are self-made that are totally kicking ass right now. they're, you know, every person on that list is an example of what's possible because they're all self-made too.

What do you think is the mindset that is different between those that have accumulated wealth from nothing versus those that stay poor or who haven't accumulated that much wealth? From what you've learned from where you were to where you are now and all the wealthy people you're surrounded with, what do you think I think it's the mindset that is different.

I think wealth isn't about money. And I know that's going to sound cliche. I think people who are successful, the amount of money they have is irrelevant. But the mindset is what they have in common, right? And I think it's that they show up in service. I think it's that they believe what they're doing is making the world a better place, is serving someone else as bigger than themselves, is answering their own calling. You probably know so many people that have accomplished business success and they're miserable. You know what I mean? And there's people that haven't who are miserable.

What have you learned from other wealthy people in terms of expanding wealth? Or what do they do differently than you think based on just seeing them or having conversations with them? Or is that not something you're in conversation with, with the friends in this space? What do you see them do differently? And what do you do differently now that helped you earn this as opposed to, you know, working at Denny's?

Working at Denny's is hard. Hard. It's hard, but working at Denny's set me up for this, right? Like, I mean, this is what I'm saying. I think everything sets us up for where we're going. I really believe that. I believe every experience. Like, when I worked at Denny's, it was hard. The kitchen was a mess. They had operational issues, and they couldn't get pancakes out fast enough, and people would get mad. They wouldn't tip. They would leave. And I was like, okay, as working as a Denny's waitress, I became aware of operational issues and how important they are. Right? Because of the fact that they couldn't get pancakes out, like sometimes in under an hour. So no one wants to wait an hour for pancakes. So watching, yeah, yeah, yeah, watching that.

Interesting.

So, I mean, I don't know, Louis.

Did you ever believe you would become as wealthy as you are financially when you were making whatever, seven dollars an hour in tips or whatever you're making back then as a waitress to your I believe that like one day I'm gonna exit a billion dollar company.

One day I'll sell a billion dollar company.

Like what switched in your mind to be able to say, okay, even though this isn't what I have right now, it's going to happen.

Yeah. I believe that when we have dreams on our heart and if we work hard enough, I believe they're possible, right? And I think if fill our minds with the right things. I don't know if it was Steve Jobs, it was someone that talked about how every single thing out there that's ever been built or been created has been created by someone just like you and me. And when we think about things that way, we start to carve grooves in our brain that things are possible. You know what I mean? And I think that again, when we tune into our knowing, for me, I wanted to shift culture and beauty. I probably could have made a lot more money going public with the company. But I also, you know, was working 100 hours a week and totally exhausted, totally addicted to work. And I made the decision to trust myself also that I didn't trust myself to actually not keep working 100 hour weeks unless I did sell it. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, there's big journeys. And listen, I again think we all know, we all know deep down inside what we're born capable of and we know if we are, if we know, like there's so many stories I share in this book about how I handled things from competition to competitors knocking us off, to mean girls not liking when we were six. There's so many stories. And my biggest thing that I learned when it comes to that is like, I believe we're not born to compete with anyone else. I believe we're born to compete with who God made us capable of becoming, right? And right, but we all know, like I know right now sitting here, I am not yet the person I was born capable of becoming.

Wow.

Like I'm not even close to that person. Like I know that and I feel like we all have that knowing if we really get still inside. Do you know what I mean?

Of course.

And so for me, I think, yeah.

Is there a mantra you have now when you feel feel doubt? Or if you feel overwhelmed, I know you're, you know, a new mom, you've got new challenges that are in your life. Do you like, what do you say to yourself?

Yeah, I mean, almost every day, God use me, love use me.

God use me, love use me.

-Mm-. Because then I know it's not about me. And I know I don't have to carry it all myself.

-That'S good. That takes a lot of pressure off you probably. I think a lot of us hold the pressure. It's like all about us taking on everything.

I prayed that before this interview.

Oh, that's good.

Yeah, it's like, you know, help me say something someone else out there needs to hear. Like have it not be about me. Because if I start to think it's about me for a second, I'm gonna be like, oh, does Lewis think that I'm cool enough to be on a show? Oh, all the stuff that our inner critic starts to tell ourselves about ourselves. And when we make things about ourselves, it's like, yeah.

My friend Rory Vaden, who you know, said a great line, It's hard to be nervous when your heart's on service.

Oh, that's so good.

When you're just focused out. You're just focused out. Yes. You know what? I'm gonna mess up. I'm gonna forget something I'm supposed to say. I'm gonna stutter over my words. But as long as I make sure that I'm thinking about the people that I'm, you know, in this experience to help them in some way, It doesn't matter if I mess up. Yeah.

And the other thing is if you mess up right now or I mess up right now, it's like someone out there who loves your show and loves you is gonna feel like they're not alone in their own mess up that just happened to them that day. It's still a service. It's like that servant's heart.

You can't expect to be perfect. Yeah, no one's perfect. You can't put out that image of perfection. It's not real. I'm curious, you mentioned there are many things you would have done differently. One, not working 100 hours a week. I also know in the book you talk about there's no such thing as balance. And I don't think there is a such thing as balance when you're launching something and when you're needing to build momentum, you've got to go all in. And that means sacrificing certain things for a period of time until you can create more balance. So I know one of them might be not working 100 hours a week every week. Another one you mentioned, which is letting go of people that were maybe toxic and holding on to people for too long who are employees, what would be three things that you would have done differently that would have given you more peace and been just as successful in your business? Whether it's those two things and one other or three other things.

More peace. You said three things that would give you more peace.

Three things that you would have done differently in your business or in your personal life to create a better flow for you. without as much stress, where you'd still be able to get as much success without this stress and overwhelm that maybe it came to you. Yeah.

I would have believed my success was possible sooner. After hearing three years of no's and rejection, by the time we finally started getting traction, I was like, oh my gosh, I felt like, is it all gonna come crashing down at any moment? Really? I felt like, you know, I have to strike while the iron's hot. I have to drive, you know? So in the first, like especially the early years, but then I really kept that, I drove it so hard because I felt like, you know what I mean? It's like part of why I did 100 Hour Weeks. I almost, in the beginning, couldn't believe this was happening, right? So it's another version of imposter syndrome. It's like, wow. And learning to believe it, learning to believe in the mission, believe something bigger than myself, is probably how I didn't mess the whole thing up. 'Cause sometimes we start to get success and then we can't believe it for ourselves, right? And then we mess it all up. Okay, so that's one. Another one I would have done differently in anybody out there who is starting a dream or a goal or a business with a partner.

Or, if you were married and you guys started together.

Yeah, or a loved one or a family member.

Yeah, talk about that.

I had had so many people say whatever you do, don't ever start a company with your partner. Or people say don't do it with a family member or a good friend.

Because it'll ruin your friendship with the nation. How long were you guys married for before this?

We wrote the business plan on our honeymoon flight to South Africa.

That's crazy. So you got married, started life together, and then started a business together at the same time.

Yeah, and we did it five years before, but yeah.

Man, you really get to know each other a whole different way probably.

You do and you know, here's the thing is like I get why everyone does it, right? And I just, we always think, oh, it'll be different for me. Like there's gonna be someone out there listening right now watching this who feels.

What I'm saying, right? Our partner, we're amazing.

We can do anything together. We love each other. It won't get in the way. And like whoever you launch a dream with, you want to trust that person. You want to spend time with all the things. It makes so much sense why people go into business family or friends or their partner. So we did it. It is a miracle that right now I can tell you I love my husband. That is a miracle we're still married. It's a miracle because it got really hard. And what I would do differently, because Louis, there is a point, and I've never shared these stories before. And in the book, I talk about this because a lot of people need to hear this. It's like there's so much I did right, but there's a lot of things I did wrong. And it got to the point where, like, my phone would ring. It could be any hour of the day or night.

I am. Yeah.

And if I saw it was my husband, I literally equated it to a work call. Everything was work. Oh. Do you see what I mean? Yeah.

And, and, we- He couldn't date you.

Yeah.

He couldn't date you, or- Neither of us. You guys couldn't date each other, because it was just like, what do we need to get done?

Yeah.

What needs to happen? We need to make money here. What's the product look like?

Well, and you know we were really all in together. We both cared so much together. The blessing is that we both worked so hard. If one of us was all in and the other wasn't, it wouldn't have worked probably. You know, I did over a thousand live shows at QVC, so I was staying the night in this hotel room for many years, like 150-200 nights a year. I'm trying to run the business out of the green room going on air all hours of the day and night. And honestly, it was the biggest gift for our business, but personally, and you're so tired, but he did every one of those shows as well. And he'd be there also. And he'd be in the green room watching the numbers live, giving feedback. And I would actually get off air. And by the way, like I'm so good with, I love feedback and criticism. I mean, it sucks. I don't ever want to hear it, but it's like I I know.

Especially from your husband.

So that's the one thing. It got to the point where I'm like, I don't wanna hear it. I don't wanna hear it. And so I was like, oh, okay, I need to hear it for the business. I need to hear it. But I would walk off air from a show at 3:00 in the morning, like maybe we had this huge, I don't know, million dollar sales goal or something, and I'd walk off air knowing we may have just missed that show goal. And I'd see his face at the end of the hallway, and I would struggle internally, like, okay, how do I show up in love? 'Cause right now, I don't wanna see him. I don't wanna hear what I did wrong. I don't wanna hear the things that didn't work in this show.

Show.

It's tough, right? And then we, I think, really failed at ever setting boundaries. So when we would say like, okay, starting at eight o'clock tonight, no more work talk or nine o'clock tonight, no more work.

You never did that or you tried?

We did it. We tried. We tried.

We were just like, oh, but this is important.

Let's get this done. It was always important. And it was always like, oh, the person that would say, okay, nothing after 9:00 p.m. or the other person, it could be either one. It would be like, Oh, okay, but really fast. Did you hear what happened today? Yeah, yeah. Like this just got caught up in customs and whatever was going on with the business and we built to over a thousand employees. So there's always stuff going on.

You're just solving problems all day. Yes.

Yes.

When you have a business, you're always solving problems. You can't really shut down if it's your business.

Yes, exactly.

So how did you resolve it?

I mean, faith. Literally faith.

Trusting the process.

Yeah, I mean, to my knowledge, neither of us has ever lied or stolen or cheated or anything like that. So we had that foundation of trust.

That's great.

But we were both burnt out for a lot of years. And when you're tired and exhausted, it's very hard to show up.

Of course.

Right? And so if I look back, I think that I did not need to work 100-hour weeks. to build a billion dollar company.

You could have stopped at eight or seven and had three hours to yourself, gotten up early and done it all over again for 80 hours or 60 hour work week.

Yeah, I would have believed it sooner that it was all really happening. Yeah.

Okay, so, and the final thing you were done differently?

There were so many things I would have done differently.

Tell me about marriage and business then, and boundaries around that. If someone's in a relationship right now and they're in total love and they're dating for years, oh, they're good.

Oh, yeah, I guess that. Yeah, yeah.

Go ahead.

I mean, listen, I think that along the lines of Oprah's advice, just when people show you who they are, believe them the first time. I think that I would have followed that advice more closely.

I still believe that. With vendors, employees, with team.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's hard. It's hard when you don't want to hurt other people. And again, I've had other entrepreneurs, you know, after doing a thousand live shows, I met tens of thousands of brand founders in the green room of QVC and entrepreneurs, and they've all said the same thing, that if you keep a toxic employee in your business, even if you love them or they're doing a great job in some areas, that what happens is they, it's almost like a cancer in the sense of it will spread. spread and infect everyone else.

You cannot allow negativity or gossip or drama in your culture. Otherwise you need to cut that out.

It's contagious.

It is the worst thing. And I think everyone needs to create a boundary as a business owner to ensure and communicate responsibly what's acceptable and what's not acceptable. And if you don't communicate it effectively, that's on you. And if people are dramatic and this and that, that's on you. So you got to make sure you're constantly in that communication.

Yeah, and I think that the challenge a lot of people face too is when people grow with you, right? They can, you almost in a way when you're growing so fast, because we were growing way faster than our infrastructure could keep up with. So then you have people wearing a lot of hats, and then as a business owner, a lot of people will relate to this, right? And maybe you've gone through this too, that sometimes you'll have an employee and you actually really feel like you are depending on them. You know what I mean? And like you can't lose them.

So you deal with the toxicity here.

And there because they're- and you never should, but it's hard in the moment. It's hard in the moment to lose someone you feel like you really need.

Of course, or someone you've built a.

Relationship with over years, it's challenging. Or you don't even know how are you gonna absorb their role at that moment. But every time- you- always figure it out. You always figure it out.

And someone better always figures it out. And then you're like, wait a minute. Who is this person? A month ago, it's like you always figure it out in some way.

Why didn't they do that sooner?

Exactly. Always. What was the longest you went keeping someone on? That you knew your gut was telling you, I gotta let them go.

Yeah. Four years.

No. Oh my gosh. We've all done it in relationship, intimate relationships where we knew, but it's like we waited six months.

Yes.

Two years. Six years.

Yes.

Until we finally broke free.

And you think it's gonna get better, they're gonna change, or it goes back to that Maya Angelou quote that Oprah talks about also being her greatest lesson. And a lot of us learn it over, we need to learn it over and over and over and over. When people show you who they are, believe them the first time.

When someone's in a relationship and they have this amazing business idea together, or one person's got this idea and they say, I would love for you to join me in this company, or this project, or this art, whatever it is. and you're like, this is exciting. Let's do this together. We're gonna launch this and see if it works. What is your advice for people who are married or going to be married or in a relationship about working together? Do you think they should? If they do, what should they create contracts early on, even though there's this like, you know, trust and respect, what would you do differently or what advice would you give someone to ensure that they could still maintain a healthy relationship and make a successful business.

I think you have to have such rock solid emotional intelligence and communication.

That's hard.

I think it's the only way.

You can't get offended, you can't be-.

You- have to be able to communicate your emotions when they happen in a healthy way. I know and you know, I know a lot of people now who are even two friends that are running businesses together and they go to therapy. They go to- Just like the way couples would go to therapy. Yeah, a lot of like friends that are co-founders go to therapy. I think it's really important.

It's healthy.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, yeah. It's hard, but I get why people want to do it. You know, you trust that person.

Yeah, and you want to do it with someone that you love or appreciate with so you can build it together. But when things get hard, that's when it's challenging. Yeah.

And the odds are not in anyone's favor when they're gonna start this. You know what I mean? And there are people that end it and they are able to stay friends or whatever, but it's very hard.

Very challenging.

Yeah. And you just have to really ask yourself, is your relationship worth putting at risk? Is your friendship worth putting at risk? But here's the thing, Louis, is our humanness, our human nature wants to believe it won't happen to us. It's just what everyone else goes through. But for me, my friendship's rock solid, or my marriage, or my, you know what I mean? It's hard. Sometimes it's just a thing that we go through and then have to decide is this something that, you know what I mean, that we want to do again?

You've accomplished so much, Jamie. You've done so much. This book's amazing. I want people to get it, believe it, how to go from underestimated to unstoppable. I'm curious, what do you think will be the greatest thing you have to overcome after you've accomplished so much? this stage of your life. Like, what's the thing you're still going to need to overcome to make you feel like you've made it or a sense of peace inside or a sense of, I don't know, next level understanding about life. What do you think is still your challenge you get to overcome?

It's a journey. I think, I think, stepping into all of who I know I'm capable of becoming. while somehow still feeling enough while doing it.

What is that? Who is that? Who is that like knowing of who you can become? You've heard it become so much.

Yeah, I mean, I think we all have, right? I think we all know what that means for us. I just have a deep knowing that I have a lot more to give and a lot more to serve and I'm in this space right now. I mean, you know, Louis I was like a lot of people would never have left the situation I was in. And what I mean by that is I, you know, as you know, struggled for so many years, finally got success at this company when we sold it to L'Oreal a few days before I met you at Summit of Greatness. A few days before that.

You sold it a few days before, yeah.

Well, I was sitting in this corner office in the 60,000 square foot office. a corner office overlooking the skyline in Manhattan, and the office, my office, the bathroom, all these things was bigger than like any place I'd ever lived most of my life. You know what I mean? And beautiful and all these things like stuff you'd see in a movie. And I remember sitting in this office knowing, feeling my gut knowing it was time to let go of one dream and start another. And I remember knowing in that moment most people wouldn't do this. because I was sitting there looking around in this office space at what the world tells me significance looks like.

Yeah, the CEO of this big company, thousand employees.

I have goosebumps saying this, like saying this out loud, but I remember like looking at the Manhattan skyline, sobbing my eyes out all alone sitting in this office, like seeing this beautiful artwork on the wall, looking around going oh my gosh, like I finally got this. Like I finally, like this reminds me of a movie. Like I'm sitting here and yet I know in my gut, like I'm supposed to leave this dream. And yet it would be way easier to stay there and have this really cool title and this really amazing office and literally the things the world says are significant. You know what I mean? And I think our life is defined by those moments when we listen to our knowing and we and we follow it anyways. You know what I mean? When I look back at this journey, all those times, even when it didn't make sense, even when the experts said, Don't do this, you know, all the things, it's like when I listened to my knowing, even when it didn't make sense, and I trusted it, that's like the moments that change our life. So, yeah, then a few days later, I met you.

And now we're here.

I love it.

Well, I want people to get this book. I've got a couple of final questions for you, but make sure you guys get Believe it. Very powerful stories endorsed by so many people, incredible wisdom, lessons, humor, sadness, all those things. Make sure you guys check this out. Powerful, powerful story. It will be a movie one day. I can say that for sure. This is a question I ask everyone at the end called the Three Truths. So imagine you've accomplished everything you want to accomplish for the rest of your life. You do it all. Whatever that is. with the family, more business ventures, mentoring, helping women, whatever it is you want to create, you create it. And it's your last day. For whatever reason, you've got to take all your content with you. So, this book is no longer with you. You take all the copies. Whatever happens, you take all of your content with you. No one has access to this interview anymore, but you get a piece of paper and a pen and you get to write down three lessons from your entire life that you would share with the world. This is all we have to remember you by, these three lessons. I call them three truths. What would you say would be your three truths?

God can dream a bigger dream for you than you can for yourself. You have a knowing inside of you and it's always right. And God in every single one of us is love. And we're all connected.

Yeah. I love that. What's something you wish people asked you that they don't ask you?

How are you so funny? 'Cause I'm really funny and people don't know that. I would say that. How are you so funny? I'm really funny. And my husband's so funny, and so like he always just talks about how he's funny, but I'm really funny. You're funnier than him? Ah, he's pretty funny. He's pretty funny.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's pretty funny.

Do you have a good time?

I'm really funny.

Is there such thing as a mom joke? You know those dad jokes?

I don't know.

You should come up with some mom jokes.

Some mom jokes. That'd be a great book. I'm gonna work on that. A little coffee table book, Mom Jokes.

You're right.

Has anyone, I don't think I've ever heard mom jokes. I've never heard mom jokes, but I.

Have a couple friends, Damon John, whenever.

I talk to him, starts with a dad joke. With a dad joke. And they're just, I don't know why they crack me up when someone tells me a dad joke, because it's so.

Dumb that I just laugh so hard.

Yeah, they're so funny. Well, I want people to get the book and I want to acknowledge you, Jamie, for, you know what I'm noticing during this, you have this childlike wonder about you. You have this reflection of your younger child just keeps seeing the seven, eight year old Jamie inside of you who is coming out. and that's what I'm noticing when I'm with you. So I appreciate your childlike hunger and desire for truth, for answers, for creating what you want, for dreaming big. I think kids have big dreams and they go after it and you continue to do that and you accomplished your dreams, a lot of your dreams. You still have more to do as a mom and as a, an entrepreneur and everything else. So I acknowledge you for your your childlike joy that you bring now and day to day. I really appreciate that. And I know you have a lot on your plate and you carry certain burdens and I want to remind you that your child joy is always there for you. And I don't know, I feel like you just need to hear that. So, it's always there for you to support you. Of course. This is, people can get the book anywhere online. They can go obviously on stores, if we can get into stores right now. Amazon, where can we connect with you online personally?

Yeah, so JamieKernLima.com or Instagram @JamieKernLima and then the book, BelieveIt.com if you... BelieveIt.com. Yeah, BelieveIt.com and anywhere you grab the book at, wherever it's sold, we're doing a big launch promotion. If you go to BelieveIt.com, it's the book's name, BelieveIt, lots of free stuff. So, downloadable action plan, of course I'm doing all that you get for free in celebration of the launch. So, if you buy a copy or.

Two, then you just go there and you submit the information.

Yeah, and you get all the free stuff. Yeah, and it's really like at the heart and soul of this book, it's anyone who wants to go from not believing themselves to believing themselves and learning how to trust themselves and know they're enough. And thank you, by the way, for talking about Childlike Wonder. You know, my daughter's name is Wonder. I don't know if you remember, she kept calling Jay Shetty Dada. Do you remember this?

Vaguely.

I was like, I think it scared him.

No, he's not here yet.

But literally like 10 minutes leading up to this interview, I don't even know why, you and I are just laughing, like giggling. So you have childlike wonder and it's really cool. It's really cool to experience that. Thank you for bringing that out in you. I don't think I've laughed or giggled like this ever. Like in an interview, I can't remember. Like just laughing.

It just makes it easier, you know? Yeah. It makes you relax more when you laugh. Yeah.

Because you ask tough questions.

I know.

You know, you gotta light the moment too though.

You gotta have fun. And sometimes I laugh when I'm like, I don't know if it's nervous or more like I laugh when like something is really like you'll share something that's bad or like that's a shock and whatever reason I laugh in those moments, because I'm like, that's crazy to think about and I just laugh. Believeit.com, make sure you guys get a few books. I recommend getting a few copies always. This is going to be powerful for you. Final question for you. What's your definition of greatness?

Stepping into all of who you are and knowing it and knowing it. You have a peace when you do it. You just feel it.

Jamie, thank you.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

Thank you, Lewis.

My friend, thank you so much for being here listening to this episode. Isn't Jamie such an inspiration? Man, if you enjoyed this, make sure to share this with a few friends, post it on social media, just copy and paste the link where you're listening to this right now and share it out with a few people you think would be inspired by Jamie's story and her message. Or you can just copy and paste the link lewishouse.com/1074 text it to a couple of friends right now. post it on social media and make sure to tag both of us so we know that you are listening and can connect to you over on social media. And if this is your first time here, then welcome to the School of Greatness Community. You are an amazing, loving, incredible human being, and we're so grateful that you're here. You're wanting to learn, you're wanting to grow, you're wanting to improve in the different areas of your life. So make sure to subscribe. Stick around. We've got the greatest minds in the world here, and I want you to have access to them for free. so click the Subscribe button right now on Apple Podcast or over on Spotify or wherever you're listening to your podcast. Make sure to leave a rating and review. Let us know what you enjoyed most about this episode. And I can't wait for you to be a part of this community. There's some amazing people I'm going to want to connect you to in the coming weeks. And make sure to check out some of the previous episodes. When you scroll down, you'll see some big names and big topics that we dive into that I want you to have access to. And if you want to inspirational messages from me sent to your phone every single week. Then text me right now the word podcast to 614-350-3960 so you can get on my texting list and get inspirational stuff behind the scenes and some secrets every once in a while as well. So make sure to text podcast to 614-350-3960. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Jamie. I'm so grateful for your time today. Again, please spread the message forward so we can help more people achieve greatness in their life. And I want to remind you, if no one's told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And you know what time it is? It's time to go out there and do something great.