1087 Mastering Relationships, Marriage & Sex (The SPIRITUAL Keys) w/Pastor Michael Todd

This is episode number 1087 with number one New York Times bestselling author, Pastor Michael Todd.

Welcome to the School of Greatness.

My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.

And each week we bring you an.

Inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Joyce Meyer said, we can improve our relationships with others by leaps and bounds if we become encouragers instead of critics. And Paulo Coelho said, when we love, we always strive to become better than we are. When we strive to become better than we are, everything around us becomes better too. My guest today is my new friend, Pastor Michael Todd, and we had an amazing time together. He is the lead pastor of Transformation Church. His sermons have been viewed over 50 million times online, and he recently wrote the number one New York Times bestselling book, relationship goals, how to win at dating, marriage and sex, as well as relationship goals challenge 30 days from good to great. And in this episode, we discuss why we should be focusing on progression, not Perfection, how to heal your relationships from past issues and traumas, what happens when you're working on yourself, but your partner is holding back. I know that's hard for so many. The three main qualities every relationship should be founded on how important therapy or counseling is for your relationship, even when things are great, how to start believing in yourself and all that you have to offer this and so much more. I'm so excited and make sure to share this with someone that you think would be inspired by this as well. You can copy and paste the link wherever you're listening to this or send people to lewishouse.com/1087 as well as make sure to subscribe here on Apple Podcast or Spotify and leave us a review of the thing you enjoyed the most about this episode. Okay, in just a moment, the and the one and only Pastor Michael Todd.

Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness.

We've got the man, Michael Todd, in the house.

What's going on, Michael?

Excited, man. Excited for this. We've been connected through a bunch of different mutual friends who've tried to connect us for a while. You're here in town, so we finally got to Kang. It's like a year and a half in the making. We had an amazing conversation for 30 minutes before that I wish we were recording, but now we can do it all over again. Let's go. You've got an amazing book called Relationship Goals: How to Win at Dating, Marriage, and Sex. And this kind of challenge book, which is cool too, Relationship Goals Challenge, 30 days from good to great. We're gonna be talking about all things relationships. But first, I want to learn about more about how you got into being in a good to a great relationship. And were you always great as a man in relationships? Or did you have a dark past where you were a liar, cheater, stealer, have all these negative thoughts thinking about other women. Did you do all that as well?

Yes. So I think, number one, the answer to the question is, yes, I was the guy you did not want to bring home. I was not a good person. I had allowed a lot of images, cultural pictures of success as man in relationship to define who I was. I wanted the multiple people. I wanted to be with her, with her, with her, with her, like all.

Of those same times.

I mean, all of it. I was, I was. I was warped in my mentality because of what I had seen, what I thought success in relationship was and what I experienced. And so, yeah, I was I was in a place that was not healthy relationally from a young age and it didn't help that there was nobody actually talking about it.

Right.

So it was that was that more cultural or was that more parenting style? You saw was it?

I think it was all I have an amazing set of parents. My parents have been married for 40 plus years. People who were raised us in faith and go to church every Sunday. But one of the things that I tell a lot of people that didn't have a strong faith background is a lot of times we're in the same place when we get 25 anyway, because there were a lot of things that weren't talked about. Even if you went to church and you did all this other stuff, it's like we didn't talk about relationships. And so only rule they gave us is don't have sex before you got married. Oops. Like, messed that one up. And there was no more communication. I was left in this huge, intriguing world to try to figure out my path to what successful relationship looked like with no playbook, with no instruction, with nobody giving me authentically what it looked like. And then I had all this perversion and wrong thoughts and ideas that were a part of my journey. And it was just a mess. And the reason that I'm sitting here today is weird because I went through this journey of discovering how relationships should work and why they didn't work this way and why the thought process I had were wrong and why did my addiction to pornography change the view of how I saw beautiful women as opposed to this. Like it was going through all of these different things and I was able to do that and repair and strengthen and renew a relationship with the same girl that I was with from 14 years old to where now we've been married 10 years. We lead a very large organization that helps people be able to discover purpose in their relationship. And I'm more in love today. I was telling you outside with no cameras on how fulfilled and excited and I'm wearing my wife right now on my t-shirt. Somebody's like, why are you wearing your wife? I was like, I wear luxury. You know what I'm saying?

Like this is.

But I mean, my mind, it's like I have totally transformed from where I was to who I am now. And that took a long journey of discovering through faith and a lot of wisdom.

Are there any moments over the last four years since you've grown in more popularity, social media, your own church, the world that follows you, and there are moments where those thoughts of that's an attractive woman. I wonder what that would be like. That's interesting over there. Have those moments, have those thoughts come in at all? And if so, how do you transparently communicate that? Do you hide that from yourself and your wife? Or what do you do to stay focused?

Yes. So my nature comes from human nature.

Right.

I'm a man. When I got married, everybody didn't get ugly. And when I, like, let's be very clear, like, there are things that we desire, we like, we see all of those other things. The difference is I have disciplined myself. I've become a disciple. A disciplined one is what that word means. And it means that you can see something that is good, that you do like, that you do want, and you have been able to beat your body into subjection or beat your mind into subjection or do the reps enough times to know that that cake look good. but that's going to cost me for my end goal. Oh, and that's for me is the thing that I bring to every area of my life that may look good, that business opportunity may look good, that partnership may look good, that person may look good. But is that going against what I want my end goal to be or is that actually going to help me get to that thing? And I think a lot of people are so driven by their desires that they don't become disciplined. That my desire has more control over me than the thing that I've disciplined myself to do. And it's crazy because our culture trying is like do what you feel. No, you can't always do what you feel. -There's a cost and a consequence to doing what you feel. And I think a lot of times especially a lot of faith leaders try to negate the feeling. The feeling's real but your reaction to the feeling is where your discipline comes in. And I think a lot of us have to become more focused on creating small disciplines every day that allow us to reach the end destination. My dream is to be married to one woman for my entire life, for my four kids to look at me and say, this is not a man who followed just his desires, but he was disciplined enough to challenge himself every day with social media, with the world around, with everything out at his fingertips. that he was so strong that he took my mother, whose bodies changed, whose moods changed, who doesn't look like what she looked like when they first met, she looked better. But he stayed with that and showed us how to love somebody. It doesn't take a great man to learn how to love multiple women's. It takes a great man to learn how to meet the needs of one woman for a lifetime. Wow. And those are the things that For me, that's the goal. So when I see something pretty that walked by, my God, that was nice. God, you're good in all of your creations. But me and my wife have developed an open relationship of communication that we understand, like, you're still a human, but you're a human that has become disciplined. And my disciplines now help me reach my destiny. and I think that's where you can literally apply that to any eating, like everything. Spending money, everything. That's where I'm at.

So how does the communication work? Let's say you're together and you see God's creation in front of you, that's not her, and you're like, oh, that's a good creation. That's attractive, that's interesting. Will you openly communicate? Is there transparency, and will you talk about it openly, or does that not work.

So me and my wife been together long enough that she knows, like she's like, was you looking at her? I'm like, you know what? I didn't see it. And the same thing with, you know what I'm saying? I don't got a six pack yet, but you know what I'm saying? There's certain things that are attractive to her and we have a lot of joy in our relationship and a lot of fun. And so I usually make jokes about it. I make light about it. It was like, oh, so you think that he look better than me? Or like, I'll do that. But it's a way of us making sure that we don't isolate our feelings. At the moment you start isolating what you actually feel, that is the crack that starts dissension.

What do you mean by isolating?

When you start, isolation is what I call the enemy's playground. When he can get you on, or anybody can get you in your own little world on an island isolated, this is how you really feel, but you act like you don't feel that and all that other stuff that's when so many deceptions, wrong thoughts, coping mechanisms start in isolation. The only reason a lot of times we do things to cope is because we didn't know where we could go to actually do it in a healthy way.

We feel shameful, right?

We feel shameful this is wrong. And so, when you get isolated well, I only that made me feel good for this moment. I had to pop that pill just to make it through the day. I had to drink that drink to be able to go here. I had to look at that website just to bring down my like And then it starts that isolation coping mechanism turns into habits. Habits then need to be fed. Then you start making room for your.

Habits and then- Addictions, yeah.

And then they turn into addictions and now your addictions rule your life and now you will look at something that you chose and that you really want to be good and you don't even have power to say yes to the right thing and no to the wrong thing because in isolation you form this whole thing that now you have to feed. so it that seemed like a lot for just a little thing, but that's why it's so important to have in your relationship communication to be able to talk about things that are real in unity. And I believe there's a commanded blessing on a relationship when there's unity. There is a level of authenticity that's attractive when there's unity, but where there's separate visions or division, like you think about it like this or they think about it like this, that's where everything crumbles. And so, how do you get to.

A place of unity vision if two people see the world in a different way?

Honesty. Like there are so many people not actually being truthful about who they are today. Not that you don't want to be better, not that there is not more for you, but today you're faking. Like today you're a liar, today you got up and put on a mask. And I always say it to like this to my congregation and the people that listen to me, I say God doesn't bless who pretend to be. He blesses who you really are. And a lot of people try to make this performance thing for like God and people and my family because this is what they want. And I was like there's a blessing on who you actually are even if it's not good today. Because then you can start from there and actually become who you really want to be or a better version of who you are. But if you're telling me... I mean just think about it. I'm in LA right now I've never been here before. I don't know where this is. So when you sent me the address to do this, the first thing my phone asked me is, can I use your current location? What if I told Siri or told the map that I was somewhere I wasn't? It would have given me directions from the wrong place. From the wrong place.

And you wouldn't have got here.

And I would have never reached this destination and been looking at your amazing smile if I wouldn't have been honest about where I was at.

Interesting. Even if it's a bad place, even if it's dark, shameful, even if I'm.

Lost, broken, hurting, beaten down, abused mentally, emotionally, spiritually, if I'm honest about where I am today, that is the only way that I can get to my better tomorrow. And so when it comes to- why.

Are we lying to ourselves so much?

Because it is shameful. And a lot of times we hate that we got there.

We hate ourselves.

We hate ourselves that we got there. How in the world did I get to this place? How do I need these pills to go to sleep or to wake up? How in the world do I have to keep kissing their butt to still work at this job? Like, this is not me, this is not who I want. And so, because we have disdain for who we have become it's like if we acknowledge it that reinforces that we're actually there. and maybe we can't live with that. And so it's this vicious cycle of faking to make it. And that's why a lot of people say you got to fake it till you make it.

I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Face it. So you can make it be real so that you can actually move on to there. And a lot of people are delaying the inevitable. You can't hold up a facade forever.

No, it's gonna come.

At some point it's gonna crumble. The sad thing is a lot of time it crumbles when it has more people to damage. A lot of times, almost always, right? Yeah, a lot of time it crumbles. Now, I have three children and they're in relationships and now everything's dependent on me and I've built this empire of podcasting or business or fitness and now I'm in this space and place that if I'm honest, it'll cost too much. May I submit to you if you're not honest, it's going to cost you too much. Yeah, I'm already on my knees. Let me stop.

So how do, have you had to heal in the last 10 years your relationship from stuff that happens every year, or is it only stuff from 10 years ago that you guys have to work on?

Bro, you know the answer to this question, man. I'm a flawed man. My wife is a flawed woman. We serve an amazing God. We're people of faith. But he knew we were gonna mess up. And there was room in the plan for imperfection. That's what I always tell people, 'cause I'm a pastor and people know I'm a person of faith and they think I'm just gonna throw the Bible at them all the time. And what I tell them, I was like, no, no, no. Just first look at my life. I've experienced amazing grace, and now I have to extend amazing grace, and I have to receive amazing grace. because I'm still going to mess up. My wife had to forgive me for something before I came up here, you know what I'm saying? Like, this is a daily walk, but that's why I tell everybody the beautiful thing about journey if you can get this stuck in your brain and in your heart really is that this life is about progression not perfection. I know culture sells us perfection. I know your parents may have wanted perfection from you. I know you've probably required perfection of yourself but that is the wrong metric. this is about progression. How much did you move forward from yesterday to today? Or how much did you move past? I know you wanted to cuss them out last week, but you only said one cuss word this week. You know what I'm saying? Or last year it was about being successful. You didn't take any breaks, but this year you actually took a few days and. And had soul care and self-care and spiritual enlightenment and getting back in your place of faith, like. how did you progress? And I think for me in all of my relationships, especially the one with my wife, the one that I'm in covenant with, I have to know that I'm going to need grace because I'm still figuring it out.

-Right.

-Like there's nobody, anybody on earth that says they're a relationship expert are liars. Nobody knows everything about all relationships. We're just trying to share from our journey and truth that we've experienced and I know for me that in the journey that I'm in right now, I make a lot less mistakes than I made 10 years ago. Because I've progressed. But am I going to make more mistakes the next 10 minutes? Probably, you know what I'm saying? And so, it is daily. And yeah, there's tons of healing that has to happen from every lie, from every deception, from every wrong word that was spoken. I tell people this because a relationship is all about trust. And this is the thing that people don't really factor in. You can spend decades, years, months building trust, but this is the truth. Trust is lost in buckets, but gain back in drops. So you could have an entire five gallon bucket of trust built up. But one thing that you never said you would do, you do, and the whole bucket goes out. And now you have to come back and Every day.

Drop by drop.

Drop by drop. You don't get a fount of trust built back up. And that's where most relationships fail is because they lost the trust and they were not diligent enough to build it back up.

Because it takes a lot of hard work.

But the problem is you have history with that person and a lot of times they would rather start over with somebody else to do the same exact thing instead of going back and yeah, it sucks. Yeah, no, didn't we talk about this? You know, I don't, you know, oh, come on. But no, this is valuable. And I'm the one who tipped this thing over. And so, I'm going to be the one to be consistent enough or disciplined enough to put those drops back in.

What's been the biggest lesson for you in the last 10 years of putting drops back in over a decade plus with your wife? What's the lesson you've learned as a human being? through that discipline, through that daily drop.

Yeah.

After breaking trust, you know, back in the past.

Yeah, yeah. Trust is way more valuable than money. Trust is way more valuable than connection. Trust is way more valuable. There's a book that I encourage everybody to read. It's called the Speed of Trust. And it basically, the premise is that where there's trust, everything takes less energy.

Yeah.

It takes less money and it has better results. But where there is no trust, it takes more energy, it takes more money, and there are minimal results. And you can apply this to business, relationships, you can apply to your family. And I think our culture is one that doesn't trust. You prove to me. And at the moment that we don't go into situations with trust, there's this disconnection that doesn't allow people like the vibe's not right. or all these different sayings. I think for me, I've learned that trust is probably a higher commodity than anything else. My greatest relationship, me and my wife Natalie, don't have to be doing anything, but when I'm in a bed in a hotel with a woman that I fully trust, it's more satisfying than any platform I've ever been on.

Wow.

It's more euphoric. It's more when I can say something and somebody believes me and I don't have to prove it to them, But they know what I'm saying is real.

That's amazing feeling.

Oh, what are you talking about? Name the places you get that. Name the places you got to make presentations to make people you pay believe you. Come on, let's be honest. Because there's still not full trust there. But when you put in so much trust that that person, your yes is a yes and your no is a no.

And they fully trust.

Trust what you say?

Yeah.

When I told my wife that I was going to take care of her and I would never hurt her again, and to be able to now 10 years removed, we just did a 10-year vow renewal and we went out to this sand desert and now it was me and our three kids and we're sitting there and Glass Runway, it's on YouTube and we just like, it was just the most beautiful thing to look into her eyes and say the words, unscripted that came from my heart. And to look at her and knew they were hitting her heart and she fully trusted what I said, you can't tell me nothing. Like, nobody, like, there's no feeling like that. And the sad truth, Louis, is most people will never feel that. They will never know what it is to have another human being with your flaws, with knowing the worst about you. I can't hide from my wife. She knows everything that I do. She knows when I do take showers, when I don't take showers. She knows when I leave the toilet seat up or when I put it down. She knows, like, So, in the most vulnerable place, she knows when I do my workout and when I don't. Like, I can't hide from her, I can hide from people on social media, I can hide from people that I work with, but from her, I'm vulnerable. And to know when I speak she trusts it, it was well worth everything that I had to do.

And what happens if you are 100% in integrity with your word, you're following through, you're being honest, showing up, you're delivering in a relationship, but the person doesn't trust you.

Yeah.

After years. Yeah.

And you're like, you have access to my phone.

Yeah.

You know where I'm at 24/7.

Yeah.

And you still don't trust me. Is that still my responsibility or is that the other partner's work they get to do?

So the beautiful thing about the story that I'm telling you, I'm telling you from my side.

Yeah.

But if you were to talk to my wife right now, there were things she had to do on her own during this whole process. or she wouldn't have made it. She wasn't sitting there like, prove to me that you were. No, there was self-discovery she was going on. Do I want to stay in this relationship? Is this worth it? What do I bring? What do I have? What am I worth? And that's why I tell people all the time, no matter if you're a couple, you're still single. Like, even though you're in a relationship, you still have to be single enough to continue to improve. A lot of people stop improving once they get in a relationship.

I got it.

Like, what else do I need to do? I made and all that other stuff. But when you are in a relationship, there are still two very single people that need to work on their communication, work on their insecurities, work on their ability to communicate, and if you stop developing your singleness in marriage or in relationship, that relationship is headed for at one point for somebody to be on another level and be like, this is not what we signed up for. Hey, I thought we were partners. I thought we were doing this together. I thought we were growing and going towards this together. And that's why I encourage people all the time, like, what have you brought to the relationship lately? Like, what skills have you improved in? Has your emotional intelligence gone to another level? Has your spiritual awareness gone to another level? Has your faith gone to another level? Have you learned a new language? So when we go on our vacation two years from now, we don't get swindled at the... You know, like what are you bringing to the relationship? And I just would encourage every couple not to focus on... Because when I say this a lot of times they'd be like, see you ain't brought nothing to the relationship in three years, Kathy. Hold on a second. No, ask yourself, what have you brought to the relationship? And if you both are asking yourself, that's part of the reason we wrote that this book, Taking a Relationship from Good to Great, because it allows people to evaluate where they're at spiritually, emotionally, and then be able to say, what do I need to change? How do I need to do this? And that's the only way that you can go from good to great in any relationship. Yeah.

My friend Matthew Hussey talks about this. He talks about relationships for women on how to really attract the right man in their life, the right partner, and he said to me one time, you know, if you want to find a great partner, make a list of all the things you want from them and then become that list yourself. Whatever you want in someone else, you need to become that first and really add that value to them as well. Yeah, it's kind of like what I'm hearing you say is, okay, after a year, two, five, ten years, you have to keep becoming that list yourself to. To keep that partner excited or engaged and trustworthy and connected. and both parties have to be working on that list.

Now, I have a little different perspective on the list, because sometimes the list limits you. Who?

Tell me more.

So I tell people a lot of time, because specifically a lot of my sisters, a lot of, they make lists. Now they got lists. He got to be 6'5. He's got to have this amount of money.

But are they becoming the things that they want from the qualities, not the things. The qualities.

Yeah. and that's the thing. Sometimes I do believe that there are certain things that you need to be able to lay out and really ask yourself, am I becoming those things? I don't think, though, the package always comes the way you think it's going to come. Of course, true. And so a lot of times, like six, five, shredded.

Yeah.

And, and, and, and all kinds of things, even some of the qualities. Because the thing is, I tell people this, you write down what you you want. I believe God factors in with your mate what you need to. See, the problem is, like, if you ask Natalie, I'm not what she wanted.

What does she want?

She wanted some big Hispanic model for lotion. Like, she wanted somebody, you know what I'm saying? The typical.

Yeah.

Beautiful. But what she needed was me and, and. When you look, a lot of people make these lists at the beginning of their list, but somebody needs to start a podcast interviewing couples who actually made it. Right. So somebody, you maybe need to do a series of relationships who lasted for 40 plus years. That thrived.

That thrived. Not that stayed together.

No, no, no, no, no. And not that were business partners. Right. That thrived. Because if you ask a lot of them, which I did a lot of research, writing relationship goals, The book, when you ask them, most of them did not get what they wanted on their list. They got what they found out they needed. And honestly, the things that I need, I don't never write down on the list because I need somebody to help encourage me when I want to go have ice cream instead of stick to my diet. I don't write that down on the list. I just write down I want somebody supportive. Well, in my mind, when I'm writing that down on the list, I'm thinking support me in whatever I'm feeling at that moment. maybe not support me in what I've decided in a different moment. And I need that, but it's not necessarily that I want it. And I found out that a lot of times when you rip up the list and start becoming the best version of you that you can be, you will then begin to see that I am now worthy and worth being with somebody who's worthy and worth being with. And you don't settle for a lot less. And that's why I called it a relationship goal. I know it's a proper, a popular term in culture. But I said people aren't doing good at relationship is because they don't have aim. Like they're not aiming at a goal that actually is going to produce the greatest end for them. And so, that's my whole thought about it. I do believe you got to become your So you're best version, your best self. But then when you do that, a lot of times it creates an entitlement in people that they will dismiss the right thing because of the wrong package.

And what happens if you continue to be your best version year after year and the other person's not willing to go on that journey? Is it till death do we part? Even if they're constantly pulling you down and saying, I'm not gonna work on myself.

Yeah.

You do all the work. This is-- I don't trust you, even if you're 100% honest. Is it-- you- know, is that-- yeah.

There'S always provision in a relationship, especially when there's infidelity and there's different things that have happened that there may be-- this may be an unhealthy situation that we can't progress in. I honestly feel though, a lot of people give up too soon on that. Nothing good ever comes out of the easy way. There is nothing great. I'll say great that comes out of easy. If it's going to be great, there's got to be some work that goes into it.

There's some pain.

There's got to be some pain. There's got to be discomfort. There's got to be, do I got to do this again? Are we still talking about this? And I really do believe in our society today that we rush into things because we know how easy we can get out of them. instead of taking the time. That's honestly why I've written books and done series and millions of people have watched it, because I'm trying to convince people like, hey, like, take this seriously. It's not just like, oh, we met at the bar, we hooked up, we lived together, now we should make a life together. And I'm not saying that people haven't been in relationships that have worked like that. I'm just saying that if you had to take a test to get a driver's license and be able to drive legally in your state. It's easier to get in a relationship with somebody, build a marriage, have kids that are going to affect the rest of us with no actual preparation, no training, no required reading, no counseling, no honesty. Like, no, like, hey, just before we get married, let me tell you how much debt I'm in. Hey, just before we get married, let me tell you that your friend and that friend and that friend, I slept with all of them. Just before, there's no requirements. And that's why I'm saying if we don't put that in and build that into the relationships we want, how can we expect it's gambling. It's like maybe this will work or maybe it won't. I think we can be more intentional on setting a real goal and I believe those goals need to be put on principles that have lasted in faith, that can last for a long time, man.

What are the main principles that every relationship should be founded upon?

Bro, I wrote a whole book about it. I'm gonna give you three of them.

Give me three.

Let me give you three of them. The first thing has to be transparency.

Yeah.

About everything.

Everything.

Like, I had this thought.

Yeah.

I looked at this. I did any idea.

So, I don't, I'll say this, you have to be wise. Because you have to, depending on the layer of relationship you're in right now, if you just meet somebody today and you don't even know if you want to be with them, I don't think it's wise that you tell them everything. But I do believe that there's a difference between transparency and honesty. And many people have adopted the thought process and the philosophy of being honest but not transparent. Honesty is when you ask me, I'll tell you the truth.

But until then, but until then, I'm hiding something. Yes.

And a lot of times, most of us don't get asked the questions that we need to answer.

Because those questions are scary to us.

Oh my gosh, they're scary to ask.

And you don't want to know the answers.

And you don't want to know a lot of times. And then it automatically, if the person is not emotionally secure enough, then you're like, what, you don't trust me? Like, there's so many different things that are there, and that's why I always ascribe to the philosophy of being transparent. You don't have to ask me I'm going to offer it up. I'm going to tell you hey, when you talk to that guy at the restaurant that made me feel some type of way and it made me really start thinking about the insecurities of my last relationship and why we broke up. And I'm not asking you to solve it at this moment but I'm letting you know how that made me feel and I'm just going to process with that. There's no question that your mate could have asked to get that response that genuinely. Because then they'll say something like this, are you okay? Yeah, I'm fine. And the truth is, no, you're not. But I don't emotionally know how to let you know that honestly, it wasn't really what you did, it's what I've been through that triggered something in me. And now I'm insecure about what I know I have. but it's because of what happened to me. But that takes being transparent and what I found is when I'm transparent, it honestly provides more empathy from the other person. To be able to, man, I'm sorry you felt that way. Well, what can I do? And like that then is deepening that relationship more than it is creating a wedge between it. So, I would say number one, transparency has to be the top thing that you have in a relationship. I think that you need to have common faith goals. I think for me, a lot of things that I found in relationship is a lot of people like each other, but what their faith is founded on are two totally different things. And I think you should be equally yoked in the or equally compatible in the things that believe. And when you do that, it's easier to have conversations about how to raise children, finances. It's easier to be able to go to, for me and my wife, we're Christians that believe in the Bible. And so there are certain things that we disagree on and then we can go to the Bible and we're like, okay, but this is something that we believe together. Let's wrestle through this. Let's work through this. How does that make you feel? Let's ask somebody. body. There are so many problems that have been solved because we believe the same things foundationally in our faith. And I'm encouraging people a lot of times that when you do that, it creates a foundation that moves past emotions. A lot of times that triggers. Yeah, it's just like, well, I can't get it and I can't get it. But then when you go to certain thing, love is patient, love is kind, love keeps no record of wrong. Dang, 1 Corinthians 13 is jacking me up right now. Love offers forgiveness. Love. Oh, love is long-suffering like these are words that we have adopted from a book that we believe has truth in it and principles to live by. And because we're on the same level in that faith, it corrects us sometimes when we don't want to be corrected. And that's where I tell people the Bible is one of the only books you can read that when you read it, it reads you. Like, and for us, that has helped us. And so, transparency, having strong faith foundations, and then the third thing that I would say is fun. If you cannot have fun with the person that you're in relationship with, good luck. Because there's certain things.

Life is hard.

It is hard. There will be trouble. It's promised. But if you can find somebody to look at in the darkest part of the valley.

And laugh.

And laugh with them. It happened to me and Natalie on the plane yesterday. I told you before, we brought two of our daughters with us, and they're seven and three years old, and we're on a plane from Tulsa to LA, three and a half hours. You can imagine all the fruit snacks and the iPads and all of the different things. Crying. Just the whole nine. And my wife is pregnant right now, so put that on top of it. And she's trying to eat, and I'm sitting in the chair next to her, next to her and something drops off of her plate and I can just-- I can see the breakdown. The breakdown just right up ahead like a movie. And I just look at her and just start laughing and she sees me and she breaks out and for 20 minutes. Laughing. We are dying on the plane. Not because everything's good, because we have somebody to be through and go through everything with us. And that joy, I mean, literally we got off the plane all the other stuff, she said, I haven't laughed like that in so long. And she was just kept laughing about it. And those are the moments that I found, like I told you a little bit before, but our son, MJ, he's five, he was diagnosed with autism. And this has been the greatest emotional faith journey that we've been on. He's five years old, still nonverbal. I'm the guy of faith. I lead a church. I'm a pastor, I'm believe and in my home there's a situation that has not changed yet and it's challenged everything. The one thing that has gotten us through or excuse me, the three things that have gotten us through are the three things I just gave you. Transparency, our faith foundation being the same and being fun. I wouldn't be sitting here today talking to you on my way to a fourth child after my wife battling depression, me challenging my calling, trying to figure out why is this happening at the moment where everything great in my life is happening. And it's those three things being transparent about how I felt and my emotions and her being transparent about how she felt and her emotions and having our faith anchored to something that was stronger than us and us having fun that I told you before we came in here, I am having the most fun in relationship. I'm not faking. This is authentic. This is the joy that I have. to be because we have decided that there's some principles we have to live by that most people aren't gonna show you in reality television. Most people aren't gonna give you in a blog or a tabloid and it has to be lived out and that's what we're trying to do.

What has been the biggest challenge for you during the rise of your personal brand success, the church success, the audience.

Growth.

The financial growth. What has been the biggest challenge emotionally on how you've handled the emotional weight with the information about your son, the stuff with your wife and everything? How do you personally manage the emotional weight?

So there's a scripture that I go to all the time. And just because I'm a man of faith, there's a scripture that says, cast all your cares on the Lord, because because he cares about you. I have to, I have to offload daily. And most people carry daily. They keep picking up more, they keep picking up more. And every day, I go to my secret place of meditation, of spending time with my Creator, and I say, Hey, everything that's happening in this life, I'm casting it on you. 'Cause you care for me. I'm mentally casting it. I'm not gonna, I gotta let that go. I can't fix the situation. If I could pay for MJ to talk, I would, but I can't, so I'm casting it. I have this organization that's reaching millions of people, and I've never led anything like this in my life before. I have people's jobs and lives and benefits and everything, but I'm casting it. and what ends up happening is it doesn't make it go away. It just means I don't have to carry it alone.

The weight.

The weight. That's where anxiety and pressure and bad decisions and not resting and all that other stuff comes from. Imagine going to the gym and doing squats, 200 pounds on you do the squats, you do your 10 of them. Killing. Louis, I was a beast. Imagine walking out of the gym with that on your shoulders. Driving with that on your shoulder.

That's exhausting.

Doing the podcast with it on your shoulder.

Like, you can't sustain it.

You cannot sustain it. And I think the weight of life people feel that they have to carry all the time by themselves. It doesn't mean that I'm not gonna have to squat stuff every day. But I'm gonna squat it and then I'm gonna cast it.

Do you think there's a way for people that aren't in your faith?

Yeah.

Who don't believe?

Yeah.

And the same things you believe. Is there a way for people to let go of that weight even if they don't have the same faith?

I believe there's a way to start that process. I believe the first thing that you have to realize is you're not in control. Like no matter what faith, no matter what you believe, where you came from, make the sun come up 20 minutes earlier.

Yeah, you can't.

Like add another hour to the day. And I think there's this false sense in a lot of our beliefs that make us feel like we're in control of stuff. There are certain things you are in control of, but there are so many more that you're not in control. The business failed. Coronavirus. Who? We didn't. How? Like. And so I think that if you first recognize that you're not in control, then it gives you the ability to see what you are in control of. You are in control of the toxic relationships you let into your life. You are in control of what you do with your time. One of the other reasons that I feel like during this, what I call the whirlwind of change in my life, why we've been able to sustain and be anchored is because I made some very hard decisions to do less when everybody was telling me to do more. I can't control that my son has to go to therapy three times a week and I can't control what's happening with this business and with this But I can control what I do. So when we went from four speaking engagement requests in 2017 to over 3000 a year later, crazy. Nuts. I still did less than five.

Really?

Because I knew that I couldn't control everything. But what I could control is the pace and that I was graced for. Like, I believe everybody has a pace that they go that they're graced for. And anything that you do outside of what you're graced to do, you have to sustain or carry that weight by yourself. How many people you got a successful business, but somebody told you you need to double it. So you started another one, and now the other one's killing you. You were graced to be successful at that business, but because now you've seen success and you want to do it. Now, you're going to lose your family three years from now because what was supposed to be enjoyable and now give you freedom to be able to spend time with your wife, your kids, your family, your whatever like that. Now, you've put something else you weren't graced for and now you're falling under the weight. Those are the things that I really do believe that when people step back out of this like, I got it all handled kind of mentality and say, hold on, I can't control everything, but there are certain things I can control and they start taking off the things that they, that awaits on their life. And putting those aside, I believe that gives you the margin. This is a big word that people need to adapt in 2021 is margin. Most people do not have margin for life.

They don't have a margin of time, space, mental energy, money, right?

Nothing. So at the moment, you're at the brink of everything. And when life happens, 'cause it's gonna happen.

You're gonna break down, man.

If this is why you can't hold it all up. This is why somebody that's worth a half a billion dollars can jump off a building. Because what? You got everything. You got all the connection, you got everything. It's because there was no margin. There was no relational margin. There was no financial margin. There was no spirit. And I don't know what it is for every individual, but everybody has to be able to evaluate that in their own life. And I think that is something that is key to everybody being healthy.

I think I heard on an interview you talked about where you had a mentor that taught you about or just told you, Hey, listen, as you continue to grow, it's gonna be important to have space, time every year that's just.

For you and family.

Yeah.

So when was that? Who was that? And how has that process been?

So I am grateful and thank God for mentors. ones that I've met and ones that I haven't met through books and all that other stuff because you don't know what you don't know. But you can learn from people who have been there before. And I became the lead pastor of a church in 2015, Transformation Church, and shout out to Transformation Nation, anybody watching, I love you. But I became the pastor of that church and what ended up happening was mentor set me down. His name is Tim Ross out of Dallas, Texas. And this was such a divine moment in my life.

How old were you?

I was 27, 26 when he told me this. And I'm about to take over this church. I didn't know anything about leading this type of congregation. I was a music producer. I was supposed to be at the Grammys, and now I'm about to be a pastor of a church. I'm like, what in the world is going on. And he said, listen, you're going to need a month break every year so that you can be able to calibrate what has happened to you, how to heal from it, and how you move forward. I'm like, there's no way I can do this. It's February and I'm about to be over the pastor of the church and I'm leaving in June for a month. I was like, I'm gonna come back. There's no church going to be there. the building's going to be burnt down, all that. He said, no, no, no, no, no. I'm telling you, if you don't take time, he's like, even if it's not a month, whatever you can get, if you don't take time to do this, he said, you,'re going to look up and be somebody you don't want to be. And I had the presence of mind to say, all right, I trust you. I trust you. I don't know that. I'm going to do. When I tell you, Louis, that this has given me more mental Clarity about my calling, my relationships, my. My family, my future and my success than any other thing. It's better than meeting anybody. It's better than networking. It's. I get to be with me and my Creator and decompress and relax and celebrate and grieve and be able to grow. and it's like being flushed out and ready and open for whatever's next. And it has been the most life giving relationship goals happened after I was on sabbatical. Like every great thing that I've ever done came after I took a break. And it was almost like the blessing of like stepping back and creating margin and saying like, I could be working, I could be doing more, I could do on it. But what does it all mean if I gain the whole world and lose my own soul? My own mind, will and emotions are bankrupt and corroded and jacked up. What does it mean if I get everything, but I feel empty on the inside? And the truth is, that's how many people are living right now. They got it all, but It's hollow. And every year, like clockwork, in the summer, I take a month, month and a half off. I make sure my team is equipped. We build a whole year around it. And everybody doesn't have that luxury to be able to do that, but you have more than you think you do. There's two weeks of vacation that you're gonna be stressed out one of those weeks trying to create a family memory for this one week with a family you haven't seen all year. That's the hard truth about it. And now it's a hard vacation. You go into debt for it. You spend money doing stuff and it doesn't come out the way. You could spread that out in every Friday. It's family day. And you create that margin. And the first part of the day, you spend time by yourself so you don't choke your kids when you get with them. And then after school, you've planned something. I'm just saying that our society has become so driven, so don't get it. grind. So all this stuff and people are going to achieve success and lose significance. They're going to achieve the thing they wrote on their dream board and it's going to be powder. It's going to be so hollow on the inside. I counsel people all the time that have everything and more that they ever wanted and they're still searching for more.

How?

It's because maybe the focus we were sold a lie. Success doesn't always mean bigger, more, greater. Now, I know I'm gonna lose some people right here because everybody thinks success is bigger, more, greater. But what if success is fulfillment? What if success is doing that thing you were purposed to do even if it doesn't pay a lot? What if success, see, I know this is counter-cultural, the school of greatness. Everybody wants to be great, but what if great is raising your kids and making sure they're whole on the inside so that they can do what they've been called to do. Like, and I just feel like we try to do this one size fits all that everybody has to have a million people on Instagram and a huge YouTube and be affected in magazines and everything. And that's not necessarily greatness for everybody. It might be greatness for you. It might be greatness for me. It might be greatness for the next person. But greatness for people is fulfilling their purpose. And once you figure what that is, what God's divinely wired everybody to do, and you're actually walking in that, and that's where for me, I am, if nobody watches anymore, if we sell no more books, if nothing happens but I'm with me, my wife, and my four kids, and I'm helping somebody in their life, their faith walk, their relationship. I'll be fulfilled.

Wow.

I'll be doing what I know I was created to do. The sad part about this statement is many people, it's not enough to just do what you were created to do. You have to be applauded to do it. You have to have the extras.

The audience.

The audience. the money, the everything. I have found out specifically with having a son with autism that all of it's Hollow. It's great. It's nice. It's awesome. But there are things in life that are way more important than the things that I used to make very important. And now that I've found those things, I just want to give that away to other people. I want to help them discover what that is in their own life so that they can win in relationships. win in business, win everywhere else. And I just feel like that's my mission.

What's the biggest challenge you've had with this opportunity with your son? In terms with your relationship, your marriage, what's the biggest challenge you've had as a couple with that opportunity of your son and what he's going through?

Yeah, I think one of the things that every couple has to figure out for themselves is how you communicate during trauma. A lot of people have one style of communication when everything's going good. But when there's trauma, your communications change. For my wife, in trauma, she wants to communicate about it and talk about it. In trauma, I want to think about it. And so, and fix it. That's my nature, and that's most men's nature, is to try to figure out the person you love suffering or hurting, like, where's the fix it? And let's move on. And so there's been a lot of times that I've had to learn to just listen and just sit with you and just get down in the hole with you and just say, I'm sorry you feel that way. And I understand. And that at the beginning of this process was very difficult for me. It was very difficult for me. I'm like, well, let's call every doctor and let's, like, and, and, But that wasn't helping her. What she needed to know is that somebody was with it in her with her at the place she was at. And so we did probably three, four weeks of intensive counseling. And when I say intensive, I'm not talking like, oh, we go once a week. We like we went every day for three hours a day for a week straight, like you and her, just me and her and a counselor. every day for three days, for a week, three hours for a week.

What did you discover or what did you heal or what did you create from that process?

Number one thing that I learned about myself is that I don't like discomfort. And so I will run out of it. I'll avoid it. I'll fix it. Let's go on a trip. Let's go like, and She, the counselor one day said to me, she said, you,'re not gonna be able to finesse your way out of this one. You're gonna have to feel it. It's gonna be uncomfortable. And then you'll be able to walk together through it. And I think for me, that was like, no, there's got to be another way. Like, you know what I'm saying? There's got to be something else. And why don't you like to feel these things?

Things.

I think for me is my mind always works like there's got, there's, there's got to be an easier way to make everything better. And for me, I'm always, I'm a problem solver. So what happens when you tell a problem solver, don't solve the problem? Like, what?

What?

Like, don't solve the problem. And I think it's been one of the most powerful things. It's been strength under control. meekness. I've tapped into another level of power to know that I could do something, but I'm choosing not to because the other person needs this. When you talk about sacrifice in relationship, that's a lot of times what it looks like. It's you knowing you could get over this really quick, but doing the thing so both of you cross the finish line together. See, a lot of times when there's a problem, the thought process is, Hey, you ain't over that yet. That was easy for me to get over. Come on. And so then you put pressure on that person.

And there's resentment, frustration, anger.

And now you've created another problem that was not even the root issue. And what I've learned right now is that for me and Natalie in this situation, I had to slow down. I had to not sprint across the finish line of whatever that moment was. And maybe we lost the race, but we finished together. And my question to people in relationship, how many times have we won the race but lost our partner? Yeah, because we wanted to be so done with it and over it. I found that we are so United and get each other so much more. This process has brought us together. It sucks. It's horrible. I don't wish it on anybody. I have a whole nother level of empathy and just care for parents with special needs children and all these things that I just had no concept of before until it knocked at my door. But me and Natalie's relationship is so much more galvanized, so much stronger because I had to learn, like, don't fix it. Just be in it with her. And now, because I've been in it with her, she trusts me with it now. Now she can be transparent. I was just thinking about that little boy in the park that's playing catch. Our son doesn't play catch. So that made me think about how MJ doesn't play catch, and I just wanted you to know how I felt. used to be she didn't, she wasn't safe enough to just be able to be transparent like that. It would bottle up and then again with no margin, as soon as life hits you.

Some explosions.

So what I'm saying, all of these things go with each other, but what ended up happening because I created margin for her to be safe with me and she trusts me, then she could let that thing out. She can cast her cares. She doesn't have to carry it all by herself. The level of growth and health that that has come in me and my wife's life over the past three years has been insurmountable. And the situation hasn't changed, but our relationship has.

How important is counseling or therapy for couples when they get started? I've always said, you know, I wish I start a relationship in therapy. Like going together in the first few months of dating saying, you know what? We're gonna be together. Let's start therapy.

Let's do it.

And not when things are troubling and there's challenge. Let's do it when everything is great. so I tell everybody how important is it in the beginning, middle, forever, everybody.

Should be in counseling forever. Like, I say it like this. The Bible says there's wisdom in the multitude of counsel. Like, there's wit, like when you counsel, that's a place you find wisdom processing out loud, allowing somebody that knows how your mind, your emotions, your brain works, that's not in it. Be able to just observe and suggest different things. Being able to understand like, Hey, you keep saying the same thing and you don't realize it, but we all see this pattern of this.

Like, how many someone hold you accountable?

Hold you accountable.

Yeah.

Like that is some of, I say it like this, it's a better investment than real estate.

It's the greatest investment. Your emotional and mental piece, there's no better investment.

People don't think that though.

There's no greater investment than your emotional peace.

People don't think that though, Louis.

Man, I will spend any amount of money to feel peace.

And that's why people drive their peace instead of actually have it. Do you understand what I'm saying? Like people would rather buy things they don't want to prove to people they don't like that they actually have something they don't have.

They don't need.

And they don't need. Then actually get the help, the soul care. the, the, the, the, the healthiness, the healing that they actually need. And so I encourage people, because this is a big topic in church as well, with people of faith, like, people's like, you don't need a taboo in a lot of churches is like, you don't need counseling. You don't know. And I, like, wear shirts that, like, therapy and Jesus, like, you need, you need to pray, therapy and coffee. Like, you need, like, like, I'm just trying to help people understand. like this is a practical tool that can help you unpack you. 30 years of trauma, 15 years of trauma, 20 years of trauma, and you think that you can unpack those bags by yourself, you need help doing that. And therapy has been, and counseling has been some of the best investment that me and Natalie have ever made. We're different people. We're like, no, I'm dead serious. We are different people. And now, you mean you're different human.

Beings and you're different people because of therapy.

Because of therapy. And now we choose friends differently. Because we know now we cannot have good friendships with people who aren't aware of themselves.

Because you can't have a conversation with someone who's like focused on something that.

Doesn'T even... That's not even, like, I can't be transparent with you. I can't even tell you how you made me feel. because you don't even now you're triggered from seven years old because I said something to you and you actually need to deal with that. And so, it has now shaped how we do everything. Like part of our interviewing process is we just ask people, are you in counseling? It doesn't mean you don't get the job or not, but we strongly suggest to all of our staff members. For our staff members at our church, we paid for two sessions of counseling. counseling for every staff member just to get them to try it. And now I got a DM from one of our staff members last year, and she super fashion person and all that she is like, I miss all of the sales that I used to basically be able to go to, but nothing is worth how I feel right now.

The sales.

The money. The spinning shop, shoes and going on sales. But she has now decided to make the investment in herself instead of the shoes.

Not in things to make you feel good for the moment.

But things that will actually make and change how you actually are.

For a lifetime.

For a lifetime. And not just your lifetime. It shows up in your kids.

Impacting everyone around you.

Shows up in your business. It shows up in everything. We are a product of the people who raised us. If the people who raised us were emotionally immature, we're emotionally emotionally traumatized, did not know how to communicate when you were going through bad situations. Passive aggression. Passive aggression, all of those different things, it showed up in us and now we're dealing with many of us three and four generations of trauma. And that's where you bring that to every relationship. Like you bring that to every business deal and that's why my hope is that people would really start winning in relationships by figuring out principles to help them reach their relationship goals.

What's the thing that you have yet to fully heal?

Me. Wow. It's a good question, boy. You do this. It's not like you have a podcast or something.

It's about the school of average here.

Yeah, no, it's the school of greatness. I think the thing that I'm still trying to heal is my performance-based scorecard.

Ooh, tell me more.

I just, I have been raised to think that how good I do is attached to how good I am.

So your self-worth is attached to good job.

Yeah. And nobody expected that and we knocked it out of the water and it went number one New York Times bestseller. seller and it's your first book ever. And all like I it is a tension for me in all transparency and I don't even know who's watching this. So I'm you this is how I am. But it is a tension for me to continually daily detach who I am and what I'm worth from what I do and what that's worth.

Oh my gosh, this is powerful.

I gotta every day.

What does that process look like? Who are you? What do you think about when someone famous calls you and say, you,'re amazing.

Yeah.

You're incredible.

Yeah.

We want you here. We want this. How do you detach your ego or your desires or your I'm something greater than I am.

Yeah.

But not diminish who you are at the same time. How do you do that?

So it's a couple of things for me. The first thing I have to do is be honest that I'm feeling that. Most of times.

Transparency.

Transparency. Most times We all, no, that's just man, you know what I'm saying? I upload something I did like, no, like, I'm getting significance from this. Yeah. Such and such saying that this book changed their life made me feel good. So and so reposted about the book. Target made relationship goals, the front stand book all of the month of February and March.

Like, I'm all that.

Like something came, I felt something. My meter moved.

Yeah.

You can't heal what you won't reveal. If you won't acknowledge it.

Yeah.

There's no chance of it actually being addressed. And so the first thing I have to do is reveal like, whoa, that I felt that like there's something there and then start reminding myself of things that had nothing to do with what I produced, but who I am, my identity. And for me, it's my identity.

Give me an example.

So, like, okay, hey, not I wrote.

This New York Time best selling book.

No, I didn't write this New York Time best selling book. I am a person that loves the people around him. That is not based on who came around me and how big the platform is, but I really love the people that are around me. And I have to remind myself Hold on, not that I just love the people that are around me. I am loved. Like if I don't have another fan, I am loved.

By the people around me.

By the people that are around me, by God, by my church. Like, okay, the internet goes off. Like I'm loved by a group of people. Like, yo, I'm worthy. Like I made a bunch of mistakes in my life and there was grace that was extended to me that that allowed me a second opportunity to do something like I'm worthy to like actually try and I'm worth being good, I'm worth like I'm needed. Like not because of what I do, because of who I've been entrusted with. I have three beautiful kids and one on the way that need me, that need me to be present not just my presence, not the gifts I can give them, but the gift of me. Like, whoa. I am more than what people see. I'm not just a pastor or an author or a producer. Like, there's more to me. Like, and I have to literally out loud say these things to myself and say things like, if nobody else buys another book, I'm good. If nobody else ever invites me to speak, if I never get another podcast, I have purpose. It's disconnecting. Like looking at the bank account and not thinking that my actual net worth is my worthiness. Because one day that can be gone. But what do I still have? And that's why I go back to that scripture that says all the time that what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? I gotta disconnect to protect my soul. And the soul is my mind, will, and emotions. I gotta protect that. I gotta guard my heart above all else because out of that, that flows everything that happens in my life. I gotta protect that, and it is dangerous to connect my heart and soul to things that are successful in this moment, to things that are feeding it from a thing. I love all of it. It's great. It's awesome and it's why I'm here talking to you right now and it's giving me a platform to help a lot of people. But if and when, because it's a real win, we're the voices they're listening to today, but one day there's somebody else. And are me and you in drunken stupors in high rises because we were connected so intertwined and entangled to the adulation to the acceptance, to the applause of people that we didn't even know. And now we lived our life for metrics. And now the metrics mean that we're not worth anything or we're worth everything. If you live for man's applause, you'll die by it.

Yes. And how do we believe we are worthy if we don't get all these other outside successes and acknowledgments? How do we, how does someone learn to believe in their worthiness? Period, whether there's success or not success. Because sometimes people achieve everything and still.

Don'T believe in the worthiness. They still don't believe in worthiness.

So how do we get to that place?

So for me, this is an answer that goes back to what I really believe. And I'm a pastor by nature. I work in all types of different fields, but there was a place in my life that I didn't feel worthy of anything. And I believe that there is a higher power, a divine creator, God Jesus, for me is what I believe with my whole heart that transformed my life. And what ended up happening in this process for me, Louis, I was a bad person. Like how I became a pastor, this is the whole nine addicted to all kinds of different things, all that other stuff. And at my lowest moment, I was reading the Bible, and for the first time in a long time, I felt loved. I felt worthy. I felt like, you know, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, whosoever believes in him could not perish but have everlasting life. And like, hold on, like all of this happened on a maybe, like, whoa, like hold on, somebody while I was yet a sinner doing everything that was filthy and jagged and raggedy and horrible, like you love me. And I started reading these scriptures and and something connected in my heart. I can't explain it. People like that's not real. Nobody can take this experience away from me because I know who I was and I know how jacked up I was and I know how backwards my thinking was and I know how perverted I was and I know how manipulative I was. The person I am today is only because I found my worthiness in a creator, not from a creation. A car is a creation. But there's a creator. Our phones are a creation, that iPad's a creation, but the creator, people are creations. But from the creator, that's where you only can find identity. And so, I went back and I just went on this journey of discovering my faith and discovering God and discovering and what I came out of that with bro, nobody could ever take anything away from me. I got not happiness, I got joy. I didn't get relief. I got peace. I didn't get a sexual satisfying experience. I got love. And from that place, I began to take steps of progression on my purpose. I started forgiving people. Do you know what type of weight it is lifted off of your life when you walk forgiving people?

It's amazing. Well, it is like holding your grudge is heavy, man.

It is. it was devastating, but it gave me the ability and the power to begin to forgive people that I was holding grudges to say sorry, to own up to stuff. And it's crazy how when you become a better person, make moving and maneuvering in the image of. Of Christ, in my opinion, and in my belief and in my experience, it changes everything around you. I'm able to be a light anywhere I go. Like people don't have to believe how I believe or anything. And I come in and I'm like, man, I like talking to you. I was like, bro, you would have hated talking to me seven years ago. But let me tell you what happened to me. And that's where I say, like, you cannot find identity in something that didn't create you. And if my iPhone breaks, I don't go to Honda to figure out how to get it fixed. Not because Honda's didn't make something, it's because they didn't. They didn't make that. I would go to Apple. The same thing with me and you. I really do believe when you need to find the origination, even if you have bad parents, had a traumatic past, you did things that were horrible. When you go back and you connect to your faith and you see what God says about you, how you're fearfully and wonderfully made, you're the head and not the tail, you're beautifully and wonderfully made, there's a purpose before you were even formed in your mother's womb, God knew you and that he has a plan and a purpose for you. When you start taking off the lies and believing the truth. I'm telling you, from that place, it starts to transform and change everything. And the only reason I'm sitting here talking to you is because I went through that transformation process, and now I'm able to live in joy, hope, peace, and I just hope that everybody experienced that at some place in their life, bro.

I love that, man. And you said you can't heal what you won't reveal. About eight years ago, I started to share my shame. to the things that I was afraid to reveal. And I wasn't able to heal. I realized that statement that you said right there is so powerful for me because for 25 years, I was holding on to pain, shame, resentment, anger, frustration. And I've talked about this many times publicly about dealing with sexual abuse as a child, holding on to that for so long. It wasn't until I started to share the shame where I was able to start the healing process. And I think A lot of people hide their shame and it's hard to heal if you're hiding, right? It's really hard to heal.

So good.

So how does someone get to a place of sharing, opening up, revealing so that they can heal when it is so dark, so painful, so traumatic from something in the past?

So this is where counseling comes in heavy, you know what I'm saying? Or good, In my opinion, godly community. Like people who you can tell that won't trash you while you're peeling back this onion. Like, you know what I'm saying?

Like, you're super vulnerable.

When you're super vulnerable. And I just, people make circles based on success a lot of times in networking instead of making circles based on insulation. When you have a circle around you, you need an insulation. You need people. you can be your 100% self with and they protect you and cover you, not cover up, but cover you and help lead you to the right place. And for me, I had that. I had a good godly community as well as we had counseling. And sometimes you got to be able to be put in positions that make you answer questions you don't want to answer and talk about things that nobody wants to like when they start asking you what's one thing that to you when you were younger and I encourage everybody to ask you this. What's one thing that happened to you when you were younger that negatively shaped who you are today?

Yeah, there's a lot of things for me.

But see, if you answer that question honestly, you start opening up things that probably there needs to be some more conversations about.

What happens if we don't open up and talk about those things?

It's the same thing that happens When you put food that was good at one point and you leave it by your bed for three months. It festers. It spoils. It rots.

It's a matter of time.

And then it attracts. Hold on, watch. It attracts things that will eat off of it. This is what some of our relationships look like. And then it becomes the aroma. of your living.

Ooh, it becomes your environment.

It becomes your environment. It doesn't matter how many millions you spend on the bedroom if something's rotting in the corner. It doesn't matter how many Gucci Prada, it doesn't matter how many Maserati, it doesn't matter how many times you 10x'd it, it doesn't matter if your soul is rotting. if your love is spoiled, if your emotions have eroded. And that's what I tell people. A lot of times we dress up something that is completely contaminated. And I just didn't want to live like that. I was affecting people could smell the aroma of my life. Have you ever met somebody? like something. I was not.

Yeah, that's a little.

That's what a lot of us look like spiritually, emotionally, and in our relationships is because we haven't dealt with the things. And it's been there since you were 6, 7, 15, 22.

They don't teach us how to deal with these things.

No, no. And that's why for me, especially in my context, especially in church and business and all that, I'm like yo, we got to talk about relationships, we got to talk about counseling, we got to talk about inner healing, we got to talk about our faith, we got to talk about this because I've seen too many people get to what they thought was the mountaintop and it feel emptier than a different season in their life.

I want to bring it back to jealousy for a second.

Let's go.

Why are we jealous human beings? and is there a place in which we can be completely not jealous of our partner or someone else?

Yeah.

So jealousy is our nature. We are all born with a nature that you do not. I have kids. I don't have to teach them how to be bad. Like, all of my kids learn. No, mine. I never taught any of my kids those words. I have to teach them share. I have to teach them, give.

Yeah, contribute.

Can help.

Yeah.

We're all born with what I call a lower nature, a sin nature that's in us. And jealousy is the primary nature that is formed there. All the way back to Cain and Abel. The first two brothers kill each other over jealousy. Like, it's our nature. And so what you have to do is fight that nature. with the thing that is countered that nature. So, when you think jealousy, when you think competition, when you think selfishness, you have to do the opposite of those things. You have to celebrate others, you have to be generous, you have to give. The only way to put out the fire is give it the opposite thing. And so, I found in my life that again, you got to be... We can't act like this stuff is not real because we'll never deal with a lot of people won't even admit they're jealous of something. Jealous that the friend got a new house or everybody's getting married and they're not or jealous that that doesn't even happen. So those people, they just tuned us out right now. But for anybody that would actually admit, Hey, there's areas in my life that I wish I had what they had. I'm coveting those things. When you start to give what you wish you had, somehow those things begin to come into your life in a different way or you don't desire them anymore. And that's how I have found for me that I give what I desire to have. It's the, the principle of sewing. Okay, so when we, when we were in a season, I'll talk about it business wise, when I was in a season of not making a lot of money and was trying to really figure out, like, how am I gonna, like, I want to marry this girl, I want to do this, I need savings, I need investments, all that other stuff. And I heard so strongly in my time of devotion, hey, you need to give something to somebody who's where you want to be. They already got it, that doesn't make sense. And it was almost like instead of looking at what they had and trying to be like, I wish I had that, okay, become so into it. Give what you desire to somebody else and help their journey. And it's the principle of sowing and reaping. You're always going to reap whatever you sow. So you might as well sow good things because everything you give out is coming back with friends.

And hopefully it's good friends.

If you sow good seed. But if you didn't, It's coming back with friends. And that was a game changing moment and I've become generous. Generosity kills jealousy. Like when you start helping people, giving to people, networking with people. And then the other thing that's very practical with jealousy, if you don't see it, you won't be jealous of it. So many people are jealous because of overexposure. There are certain things I'm not supposed to know about somebody else's life, but because of the culture we live in today, I'm jealous of things that I didn't even know existed.

It used to be in the, I guess, 50s and 60s, the Joneses, where it's like the neighbor.

Yeah.

You saw the neighbor's house and car.

You didn't go see everyone's house and car on social media. And that's where, again, I think we come back to the idea of margin. Yeah. Like, there are days of every week that I cut off my social media. Like there are time periods when I go on that sabbatical, I'm off of social media the whole month. A month.

Are people posting for you though? No, nothing.

I tell them to go black. Wow. Now think about this, when I'm talking to book publishers and people I've made contracts with and everything like that and telling them, hey, just before we sign this, I want you to know that once a year I go black. I won't be posting, I won't be promoting, I won't be doing anything. And I'm telling you, they freak out. and I said, but I promise you, when I do this, it's going to make me more fruitful in everything else I do. And now any partner that's been with me, they're like, oh, we understand now. They still scared to do it. But, but, and again, I went off the number. I was, by the grace of God, I was on the number one New York Times bestseller for three weeks, and we were on the top 10 New York Times best selling list for 15 weeks in a row. I went off a New York Times bestseller cause I went on sabbatical. So I knew I was going to take myself off of the New York Times best sellers list because I was going to stop promoting my book.

Wow.

And I did it. Now, for some people, that would seem stupid. For me, that was success. I was unattached.

Yeah.

My work to the results.

Yeah. Was not based on being on New York Times sellers. bestseller for 30 weeks. Never went back on it yet. Haven't got back. It's not like I'm trying to know the fact I'm just grateful the fact that we did it once. Yeah, it happened. But I'm still worth it. I'm still a good guy. I'm still loved. I'm still no matter if I'm somebody in the book publishing world may think I'm nothing, but I know who I am. And those are the type of decisions that are countercultural. that people don't understand. But that's why I have my peace. That's why I'm full of joy. That's why when I talk to you, I don't got to put on any type of allure and act like I'm bigger than I am. Because I'm actually when all of this is over, I'm going to be good. Like I'm actually go back to the hotel with my daughters, take them to the pool. I'm actually going to enjoy and be fulfilled in what I believe God has called me to do. And so, it really is one of those things that jealousy many times comes from being over exposed. So if you would, if you would limit your exposure, it would help you. Think about it. When horses run in the Preakness and in the Kentucky Derby, there's a very inexpensive piece of equipment that is, is, is very blinders, very intentional and effective to the horses winning blinders. And the reason is because if they could see the other horses, They would go into their lanes and be disqualified.

Oh, my goodness.

Think about how many of us are distracted and getting ultimately disqualified because we're jealous of somebody else's lane when we already have our own to run.

You gotta run our own race.

Come on, bro.

We gotta run our own race.

Come on, bro. And for some reason, it's not sexy enough to have one lane. You gotta have 10 lanes.

You want every lane.

You want the track.

You want the world?

You want. And I'm just saying, like, maybe, just maybe. I'm not saying I know everything, but maybe the end result of running in several lanes is not the Fulfillment in the success that we think it is.

How do you create a financial, abundant mindset as a pastor of a church where it's probably, I'm assuming, taboo to. be talking money or be thinking, let's build wealth and abundance.

Yeah, yeah.

Pastor as a church. You guys have publicly announced acquiring this 40 million dollar Arena Center in Tulsa, which is amazing and creating communities and opportunities for people there. How did you one go from not acquiring a lot of wealth and an abundance mindset? Maybe you had it before. How did you transition that, knowing that I am a pastor where people are gonna judge me based on how much money we bring in based on these things. How do you manage that stigma maybe and also be at peace with creating financial abundance? And how can we learn to create financial buzz in a spiritual way?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I love that question. That's a good question, bro. I think the first thing that you have to realize is I'm aware of the landscape of most pastors in the world when it comes to finances, where there's been a lot of abuse, there's been a lot of misuse, mistrust, mistrust. And so the first thing that I did when I came in as a pastor is I decided, it goes back to what I've talked about in relationships.

That's true.

It's going to be completely transparent. So like every year we tell the church every dollar, every cent that came in, we tell them that every dollar that comes in 10 plus percent is going out in missions. We let people know what we're doing, how it's going to happen. And you can't make anybody give to a non-profit. You cannot make anybody. I mean, they have to do that on their own. We don't make a big deal about any of those things. We decided that finances would be the fruit and not the focus. And I think that's something that everybody needs to adapt. A lot of times money and finances is the focus. But I believe that if you make the focus people, the focus reaching purpose, the focus helping others, then finances is the fruit, not the focus. Yes. And for us, that has been our entire mission. When I took over our church, we started in a converted grocery store in the hood of Tulsa. So, like, I didn't come from this big machine of people understanding. There was less than 300 people that came to my church, and most of them was sitting there like, he not gonna make it. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, let's be honest. And, and I just told people that this is going to be a generous church. And I remember it. I remember the day everything changed for our church. I was reading a book by another Pastor named Robert Morris called the Blessed Life. And he was talking about how many churches and non-profits talk about give to get, give to get. And really, the principle of the Bible and God is to give, to give, not to get. We're giving just as an extension of love, not because we're not expecting something in return. For God so loved the world that he gave, without an expectation of return. And I said, that's what we're gonna do. I went to our platform, less than 300 people in our church, and I said, Hey guys, today I just really feel that we're supposed to raise money and none of it's supposed to help us. It's supposed to go out and help other people. and you should have seen the faces of those people. They were like, huh? Like, what do you mean? Like, how are we going to do this? And I was like, I just, I want us to be a generous community that blesses people in need, blesses other churches, blesses non-profits and people who are helping with sex trafficking. Like, let's just do it. And we raised 833, 8, 300 and something dollars that day. That day. And we gave it all away. and that was the seed that went in the ground that I believe transformed our mindset around the, the thought that it is more blessing to give than it is to receive. And from that point on, keeping transparency, teaching, being honest, and then being prepared. See, this is the big thing people don't understand, is preparation is really the, the Avenue that you're ready for the things that are coming to come in your life. When this arena came open, it was because we had years of preparation, being generous, giving to people, teaching, and then saving and then being ready. And then this $50 million arena came available. We were able to get it for like $10.5 million and pay it off in six months. It is crazy. It's crazy faith. It's crazy, crazy. It doesn't make sense at all. the only reason it happened though is because we had practical preparation with principles of generosity. And I think those are two things that everybody can take practical preparation. You can't give what you don't have. But then you have to have principles of generosity. And I was interviewing some people because I do a series on this every year and I'm in one right now even as we're taping this talking about being a paper chaser or a purpose chaser. 'Cause most people are paper chasers. But the paper without purpose is pointless.

Oh.

And I've been doing a series on that and just helping people understand that purpose is more intentional than paper. And the crazy thing about it is when you get in purpose, when you're doing that thing you were created to.

Do, you get the paper.

The paper follows you. You're no longer on a treadmill trying to get it. It comes, that's our story, is that we decided we're going to help homeless, we're going to help widows, we're going to help orphans. Last year, because of the amazing generosity of the people in our church, in one Sunday we gave away $3.5 million. What? $3.5 million. We paid off people's houses, we canceled student debt, we did all of these different things in one day. One day. One day we bought people people who had special needs vans that they could get into their car. We partnered with an organization for the homeless to get shower trucks, to be able to go around and shower. It was nothing for us, it was all together. Now, that all came from that $8,300. That six years ago we sowed in faith and that's the thing that this my mantra is I always say all you have is all you need. Everybody thinks that one day when I have more, then I can do more. But right now, do you know how much $5 could change somebody's life today? And there were many times when I was at the gas station, if somebody would have put an extra $5 in my tank, that would have brought me to... You could be somebody's answered prayer.

Now.

Right now.

Today.

Today with whatever you have. And it don't even take money.

It could be a smile.

It could be a smile, it can be helping them move. It could be like, just think about all of the different things. And I've been doing some interviewing of people because anytime I do a series, I want to feel, I want to feel like I know where people are doing some surveying. And do you know what everybody's second dream job is?

To help people?

Be a philanthropist.

Oh, right.

So what everybody thinks is like, hey, I'm gonna do this profession, career, da, da, da, da, da. Hopefully it gets so big so I.

Can give and help so that I.

Can give and help people. And I said, if you do not work the muscle of generosity today, it will have alpha, what do you call it? Atrophy. It'll have atrophy by the time you're ready to use it.

You'll keep hoarding your money. You'll say, ah, it's not big enough yet.

I want more. Yep. And it's not just money. It's your time. It's your energy. Generosity is not just about giving money. Generosity is about giving of yourself. It's about giving time. It's about Having a phone conversation, giving back to somebody who was where you were at. Think about what you would have done to have a call with some of these people you meet with 10 years ago. Do you understand what I'm saying? So, who now looks up to you that if you took 30 minutes out of every week or every day and you called a young aspiring and gave them what you had, that's generosity. But many people again, we don't have margin for that. We've made all of these life goals and successes more important than the things that actually really matter. And so for our church, we're a product. We're living a blessed life because we bless others and I'm just grateful to be a part of it. Like honestly, it's not something that I'm doing on my own. There's tens of thousands of people that call Transformation Church their home and trust the authenticity, authenticity and the stewardship that we have and we get to bless. I'll tell you this last story. You know, coronavirus has hit everybody. And there was a couple in our city that had a church. And the pastor of the church, five kids, two adopted, died of coronavirus just a month ago.

Oh, man.

Small church heard about this story. white family, nothing, no connection, no affiliation. We just heard about it. And she just lost her husband, the provider, the father to all the children, all this other stuff. Our church last Sunday, because we heard about the need and saw that we could help, paid the husband's salary to her for the rest of the year, six months of the year, and then paid their house. Wow. So that they could have a place to not have to worry. And this for me, whether you believe in Jesus or not, like our hope is that you would see the love and generosity of a group of people that doesn't want anything from you. And hopefully that would lead you to a greater love. And so again, like when I say I'm just excited to be a part of it. Yeah, I might be the leader, but like I'm just like, yes, For me, it's a beautiful thing.

You're doing amazing work, man. I got a couple final questions for you. This was a question I asked you before we started the camera rolling. I said, what's the thing you wish more people asked you? You said, why do I do what I do? So I'm curious, why do you do what you do?

'Cause I wish I would have had it. I'm trying to be everything I wish I would have had.

Growing up.

Growing up. I wish I would have had somebody who would have been completely authentic and honest about their journey, that showed the joys of living a life of integrity, that actually loved their wife and family, and were committed to a calling bigger than themselves.

Because you didn't see that again.

I didn't see it. There was always, anybody great had to be a rapper or an athlete. like, there was no people that were, like, regular people that didn't have some, you know, amazing gifting, and then they made their life that I just didn't see it. That wasn't what was glorified. And I definitely didn't know anybody, like, personally, that was there. And nobody talked to me about relationships. I went through so much crap just because I didn't know. And I think a lot of things. The Bible says that the older are supposed to tell the younger and they're supposed to teach and a lot of times there's not margin for that. So how many things have you not learned? Not because you didn't want to know, but just because nobody... At the time. Or was generous enough to actually take the time to share with you. And so I just said, hey, if I ever get an opportunity, I'm going to be what I wish I would have had. What would have saved me hurting people? What would have saved me making mistakes and bumping my heads and getting addicted to those things and making those wrong decisions? Like, I'm gonna say, and that's why I'm authentically who I am. I feel like I've been called by God to help people and help people win in relationships, help people discover their purpose and and that's why I do it, because there's a Mike Todd somewhere that is watching this interview right now and is like, that's what I needed to hear to make this next decision that doesn't seem big, but it's going to affect me forever. And that's why I do it. I appreciate this conversation, man.

This has been really powerful. I want to ask you a question. I asked everyone at the end called the three truths. Okay. It's a hypothetical question and scenario. Okay. So imagine it. last day on earth many years from now. And you've accomplished, given, become everything you've wanted to do. But for whatever reason, it's the last day and you've got to take everything with you to the next place. So no one has access to your books, this conversation or your message anymore. It's all gone to the next place, wherever it goes. And however, before you go, you have a piece of paper and a pen and you get to write down three things you know to be true. the three lessons that you would leave behind. And this is all we would have to remember your lessons by. I call it the three truths. What would you say would be yours?

Wow, that's a good question. I'm gonna go with this. My three truths. All you have is all you need. That would be my first one. I don't believe that God will ever ask you or require something more than that's in your hands. to get to the next place. My second truth would be progression over perfection. That if you take a step every day, you'll get to the place that you're supposed to be at. And then my last one would be Jesus loves you. And the reason that that would be my last one, and really, if I only had one, that would be the one is because I believe that that is the truth that has transformed me from who I was into who I'm becoming.

Yeah.

I notice I didn't say who I am. It's who I'm still becoming. And there's a love that is not like man's love that can transform everything.

Wow.

And I think those three truths take away every other accolade that I think somebody could have a really fulfilling life with those three truths and actually it would impact where they're going to end up. So that would be me.

Michael, I acknowledge man for the journey you've been on, for the journey of taking chances, for the journey of diving in deeper in relationship when it's challenging and hard for your authenticity, for being transparent and real about the challenges you face even today. I acknowledge your generosity through what you're doing with your church, with your platform. I acknowledge your childlike energy, everything about you. I'm really grateful that you're here right now and I acknowledge the gift that you are for the world.

And hopefully we can have many more conversations. Oh, bro, you're coming to Tulsa, bro.

We're coming, man. We'll make it happen. That's awesome. Let's do it. I wanted people to get your book, Relationship Goals: How to Win at Dating, Marriage and Sex.

Yeah.

And this book as well. relationship goals challenge, 30 days from good to great with lots of different practical challenges and exercises on how to enhance the quality of your relationships. So make sure you guys check these out. You're also blowing up on social media even though you're detached from it. I am Mike Todd everywhere, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Your YouTube is the same thing?

Yeah, so we have Transformation Church, YouTube, and represent TV.

Okay.

And you can represent.

Yeah.

So that's our mission, to represent God to the lost and found for transformation in Christ. Like, that's what I feel like everywhere I go. Not represent. Well, so I kind of, in my mind, I took that word, I kind of hijacked it. It's all three of them. It's represent, re-present and represent. It's all different emphasis, but that's what I feel like I'm supposed to do. It's so God differently to give him differently and then to promote him differently. That's all those different things. But that's for another podcast. You know what I'm saying? I'll tell you how to do that on the next school of greatness.

Exactly. So we got you on YouTube. We'll have it all linked up as well.

Okay, cool.

And the final question then, even though you already answered it, but let's hear it again. What's your definition of greatness?

Man, my definition of greatness is actually fulfilling what you've been called to do. And I To my core, I feel like everybody's wired for greatness. I don't think that is a select group of people. It may look different, but it is in your DNA. And I think that the sooner you discover who and how you were created to impact the world, because it's always about somebody else, it's not about you. It's always about somebody else. The only reason you're sitting here is because you decided in LA traffic, you wanted to help other people who were feeling like you. The only reason I'm here is because I've decided to live a life of service and help people with what I've been through. And now us moving in purpose has created a level of greatness. And we haven't reached the pinnacles if we stay humble enough to continue to do what we're doing right now. So that would be my definition of greatness.

Michael Todd, my man.

My guy.

Appreciate you, brother.

Love you, man. This is good.

Thank you, brother. Appreciate it.

Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Pastor Michael Todd. Loved the hang. We got to connect a little bit before and after, and we've been texting ever since. And I'm just a big fan of his message and his mission and what he's up to in life. If you enjoyed this, make sure to click the Subscribe button over on Apple podcast and leave us a rating and review. When you do that, it helps us spread the message to inspire more people. and improve the quality of life for.

More people around the world.

So, make sure to subscribe on Apple Podcast right now. Leave us a review. And if you want to get inspirational messages every single week and get on our texting list, then make sure to send me a text with the word podcast to 614-350-3960. And also, make sure to check out Relationship Goals book and check that out if you want to learn more about the strategies and the stories on improving the quality of your relationship. and I want to leave you with this quote from Rick Warren who said, Never procrastinate in showing love. Don't delay, don't put it off, do it now. Ooh, some good stuff on love, relationships, marriage, dating, sex, and all the other juicy things with relationships. I hope you enjoyed this one and as always, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And you know what time it is? It's time to go out there and do Something great.