5 Keys to Find & Create the Perfect Relationship EP 1122

Welcome to this special episode all about mastering relationships. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Marrn Luther King Jr. Said, I have decided to stick to love. Hate is too great a burden to bear. And author Paulo Coelho said, when we love, we always strive to become better than we are. When we strive to become better than we are, everything around us becomes better, too. This is a special episode, and we've had so many conversations with some of the most incredible relationship experts in the world. And I wanted to bring some of these key moments together to help you take your relationship to the next level, whether you're single, you're in a new relationship, or you're in a long-term relationship. There are always ways that you can prove every area of that relationship. In this episode, we discuss why relationships are changing now more than ever, how we've been sold a myth about marriage, how to rewrite the stories that are holding you back from accepting love, how to build the foundation for a strong relationship when you're getting started, the biggest factors that help you become more desirable as a partner, and so much more. And if you're enjoying this at any moment, make sure to to a few friends, post it on social media, tag me at Lewis Howes over there, and let me know what part you're enjoying the most about this, as well as click the subscribe button over on Apple podcast to stay subscribed to the School of Greatness. Every single week, we've got some great content just like this. In the first section, we talk with psychotherapist Esther Perel, who shares how the roles, rules, and expectations in our relationships are changing now more than ever, and how we can work through that to find the right type of partner. Why are relationships seemingly so hard for so many people when it's the thing we need the most to feel alive, to feel happy, and to feel connected?

This is the million dollar question. You know, I'm a relationship therapist for 35 plus years. I work with people in their romantic relationships, family relationships, friendships, co-founder, colleagues, co-workers. So love and work, the two pillars of our life, as Freud said. And if I could just say, why is the simple feeling of loving or caring not enough? Because the entire human drama is really complex, the same way as nature is complex. So is human nature complex.

And.

I spent my whole career studying what is changing in relationships. You know, are they more complicated today? Are they more painful today? You know, have our expectations changed?

And.

That I have answers to. I don't have answers to why is it so, you know, but I do.

Know- Is it more complicated now, relationships, than 50 or 100 years ago?

Yes, absolutely.

Why is that?

Why, for a very simple reason. For a long time we live and we still in many parts of the world live in traditional societies where relationships are clearly codified. There are clear rules, there are roles, there are obligations. There's a tight structure from which you can't get out, but it tells you clearly who you are, where you belong, where you rooted and what's expected of you. And you don't have too much questions about whose career matters more and who's going to wake up to feed the baby and who has a right to demand for sex and what and everybody, every husband knows exactly what they can ask from their wife, and the wife knows exactly what she should not tell her husband, and children know their place, and adults can all interact. All of this was super regulated. You know exactly that on Sunday you go to visit your family, and that you have to call your grandma, and that nobody had church. And you go to church, or you go to any other religious institution where you go to pray, to be with the community, et cetera. And you know what? Nobody needed to explain to you why it's important. You just went. because I said so. And because that's what you do. That's what we do. And that's what we don't do because what will the neighbors say? And there is a community that looks over you all the time and the streets are narrow like that and everybody knows what's going on in the neighbor's house. Right now, your best friends could be breaking up and you didn't even see it coming. Nobody knows what goes on in the neighbor's house. That's where should we begin became, I think, so powerful. It gave you back a sense of what actually goes on in other people's lives so that you're not alone wondering, am I the only one who's going through all of this? This tight structure of our society has moved into what we call today network societies. Network societies is not tight knots, it's loose ends. It's loose threads with commitment that can be revoked at any moment. That's why your women are constantly writing to you. I thought we had something. and the next day he disappears. I thought we had developed a sense of trust. You know, where is the care? Where is the loyalty? Where is the continuity? All these things that now are not just set, fixed, they all have to be negotiated. Everything that was a rule is now a negotiation, a conversation. Who is going to go to work? Are we going to move you to the West Coast or are you going to move with me to the East Coast? Are we going to have children? Are we ready to have children? How many children? Do we even want children? On and on and on. Am I happy at work? Oh, I could do better. Should I stay? A few more months? Should I leave? Is this what I really want to do? Is this who I really am?

Is this my passion?

Is this my passion, this identity quest the whole time? Is this who I want to be? And all of these questions are rather new questions. Why? Because in the past or in other parts of the world today, you kind of know who you are. Seriously. You're the son of somebody. Even you're the son of somebody. It starts with that, Ben. And you probably will even do what your father has done. If you are a man and maybe not do much of any of the outside the house, if you are a woman, or you may begin a charting course of working outside the house. and all of these things are very, very normative.

And now it's different.

We don't have any of that at this moment. We basically, I call it the identity economy. We spend our time trying to figure out who am I? We have an enormous industry of self-help, you know, with this belief that we are self-made, that we can have selfies, that we do self-care. It's this self, self, self that is so Focus such the center of everything and so fragile. The freaking self has never been more fragile. We are constantly making sure that it doesn't get overwhelmed, that it doesn't get triggered, that it doesn't get violated, that it doesn't get shattered because it stands there alone like the little Dutchman with his finger trying to hold back the dike. You know, and that is that's the times I think we are in at this moment. And that's the waters I think you swim in.

Sure. Well, I think that's where suffering, inner suffering, comes from on the surface, is when you obsessively think about yourself. When you're obsessively self-centric thinking all the time.

Trying to improve yourself and feeling not good enough. I think it's the combination. Comparing... Now, I don't know that people didn't compare themselves when they all went and stood on the steps of the church on a Sunday morning. I think communities, people have always, compare themselves, but there was a different type of social control, the one that we have on social media today. Social control has always existed. So suffering is part of life. Community and not being alone is what helps us with all our experiences, definitely with suffering. I look at the disappointments of relationships. and the struggles that we have. Why are they so challenging? What is the challenge? What can you do about it? When is it you who can do something? And when do you have to realize the limitations that what you will do will not change another necessarily, when it does and when it doesn't? And how does this manifest at work and at home? You ask me how relationships have changed. I think we've never had more expectations of love and work than we do today. I think we expect today from love and work many things that we expected before from religion and from community. We want our relationships to be transformative, transcendent, meaningful, spiritual, purposeful, erotic, passionate, and we want it at home and we want it at work.

How do we get it at work, too?

Oh, because we want work to be purposeful today. We want work to To give me a sense of identity, of meaning, of self-fulfillment, of development, I don't just want to go to work only for the paycheck. I need the paycheck, but I also want the paycheck to be meaningful to me. Work has become an identity economy. It's not just what am I going to do, it's who am I going to be. And it parallels, it parallels, you know, what do we talk about at work? Transparency, belonging, authenticity, trust, psychological safety. I mean, when did the entire emotional vocabulary enter the workplace to such a degree that soft skills, what they used to be called, which are emotional and social skills, relational skills, which used to be seen as feminine skills, and feminine skills, you can idealize them in principle, but disregard them in reality. And these soft skills have very quickly become the new hard skills. And that's why I'm working in the workplace. It's not because I have changed, and I suddenly am interested in work. It's because work has changed, and is suddenly interested in what I have been doing for decades.

I love this. I'm going to ask you a question that may be hard to answer. maybe it's easy, but you've had, you've seen a lot of intimate relationships work and fail over 35 plus years, right? Yeah. How many of the relationships, what's the percentage of people in your mind who are in intimate long-term relationships? Marriages are not married, but together, are actually happy most of the time. Thriving, beautiful. I'm sure there's challenges, but like they're able to work through them. with semi ease. How many relationships in your mind are super happy and thriving after decades of the changes of the times, society, work, family, all the dynamics that happen in life?

So I have two ways of answering.

Yes.

The first one is cultural. Your definition of happy and thriving and fulfilled is probably very different than many other cultures where being healthy, having enough to eat, having children, having grandchildren, having good jobs, being respected in the community.

Is happy and thriving.

Is happy and thriving. It's not about you and I are talking on the couch and I'm pouring my heart at you and you are telling me I'm the best thing that's ever happened to you in your life and all of that. Okay? So we- that's one version. That's one version is you have got to look at the word happiness and thriving really in a cross-cultural context. Because a lot of us, by the way, who have the new definition, have parents who think about marriage and what is a happy marriage with the other definition. And I'm wondering, you know, that maybe we are so unhappy because we want so many other things that are maybe not part of marriage.

We have such high expectations.

We have super high expectations. I want, we want everything. We want a partner to be an entire community. My best friend, my trusted confidant, my passionate lover, my intellectual equal, my co-parent. And on top of it, I want with you to deal with all the physicists of the everyday life and all of what we need to get to, all of that. And then we should also be passionate, great lovers, fantastic travelers. Exactly. You know, and very few of them.

Dancing every week.

So Eli Finkel has a best answer for you on that. He's a researcher on marriage. And basically what he says is that the good relationships of today are better than the relationships of history. But there are very few. Because the good, what you call that happiness, is the top of the Olympus. It's climbing the mountain. And at the top of the mountain, the view is fantastic, but the air is also thinner. And not everybody can climb the mountain. The people who get to the top, their top is probably better than the tops of the past. Now what is the top? It used to be that marriage was for survival. Then it became a romantic enterprise. And it became what I call the service economy, from the production economy to the service economy. You want children, but no longer just eight, so you only want two, so sexuality becomes for pleasure and connection, so it becomes a service economy. It's no longer a production. And then from there you go into identity, which is what? I want to become the best version of myself. and you're going to help me do so. That's the identity story of marriage. And that goes up the Maslow ladder. Now, if I asked a question differently, I actually wanted to write that very article. About 10-15 years ago, I set out to write a piece, what are creative couples? And do you know, because creative was the word I was interested in, not so much happy, passionate, but Creative, meaning not stable, not solid. But what is this thing, creativity? The spark. And I went and I asked almost 100 people, do you know couples that inspire you? Do you know couples that you think have that spark still? And the frightening thing was that the majority of people could sometimes come up with one, maybe two, and that was it.

That'S it.

They knew people who were very good at renovations and people who were great parents together and people who were great business partners together. But that hole that you talk about, there were very few. And I thought that is so sad because here we are, we want something. I mean, if I say good business partners or business leaders, you would give me 10 people who you think inspire you to run a company or authors or musicians. We all have a long list. Who can say what What's your favorite musician? I mean, most of us have more than one. When it comes to intimate relationships, people have very few models. Now, maybe it is because what they want is so high that there is very few models, actually. And that's probably the challenge of intimate relationships today.

So.

How do we create that in an intimate partner? or is it setting a lower expectation for what we want so that we don't...

It's both. I think sometimes if you lower your expectations you're much better off, no doubt. So back to Eli Finkel's research. Calibrating expectations is probably one of the most, the three main things for what he calls successful relationships. And calibrating doesn't mean you lower your expectations necessarily, but you also diversify them. You don't ask one person to give you what a whole village should actually give you.

Okay, that was the first thing, what's the second? You said there's three things.

So one is the calibration of the expectation, two is the diversification, and three, which is the one that very much speaks to me, is doing new things. With your partner? With your partner. That if you do the things that you enjoy, That's really nice, that's comfortable, that's cozy, that solidifies the friendship. But if you want to create intensity, it demands risk taking, doing new things outside of your comfort zone, a little bit more on the edge.

How often should we be doing new things with our intimate partner?

I think, as often, I mean, look, the answer to this is very simple. Often enough. But not too often that you become chaotic and you dysregulate. Right now you're asking me a systemic question. This is true for an individual, a relationship or a company. If you don't change or grow, you fossilize and you die. If you change too much, too fast, there's no stability. You go chaotic and you dysregulate. So how often it depends on where you are at in your life. Are you the two of you? Do you have kids? Do you have little ones? Do you have aging parents? Are you taking care of somebody? What else is going on here? We'll tell you if this is a period where you need more stability or if this is a period where it's time to go and be curious and explore and discover and go into the world and launch.

Right. If you're a young 30-something female, I get this all the time from a lot of women who reach out to me, to me, who are ending relationships that were really stressful for them or they've been single for years and they're trying to figure out how do they find the right person or how do they create the right relationship for them that's going to be a long-term partner. If you're a female and you're young 30s, what should they be thinking about? Like should they be focusing first on themselves, growing themselves or what are the things they should be looking for in the right partner?

I just wrote my current blog, which is a little bit of a critique of this taking care of yourself first. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So, because you learn to love yourself in the context of your relationships with others. You know, this idea that you go first to work on yourself here, and then you prepare this little nice little package and you bring it to relationships, that is completely off, actually. It's interactive. You do it, you need a good amount of self-awareness, but you also need to be in relationships because it's people who help you become more aware.

Practicing it.

Practicing it, but other people let you see who you are. It's by being with others that you get to know who you are, not just by sitting there alone and say, who am I? Who am I? But this is a relational perspective on life, and I will stand by that. Read the newsletter. I really poured myself into that. because I'm tired a little bit of this. No, what I will say to you, I'm tired of the go fix yourself first and then go be in a relationship. Relationships help you to become who you are. That's what happens between children and their caregivers. The next thing is instead of constantly thinking who's the right person I'm going to find, why don't you ask yourself who do you want to be? Who should the other one be? No, maybe it's on occasion Ask who will I be as a partner? Who have I been till now in my relationships? How have I shown up? What is it that I do? Not just, you know, finding the right person. That's now. What does it mean to find the right person? And there I will say the simplest way of looking at it is this. There are many people you will love and they are not necessarily the same people that you will make a life with. Are you looking for a love story or are you looking for a life story? Ooh, that's good.

You understand?

Yeah.

There are many people who have had love stories. This is a whole different story. I never thought for a minute I would live with these people. It takes something else to have a partner in life with whom you're going to go through the pains, the sufferings, the challenges, you know, all of that.

Can you have a life partner and still have a love story?

Of course. Of course, you want the life partner to be a love story too, but the love stories per se are not life stories. It's different ingredients, it's different values. There are certain things that you don't need in order to have a beautiful love story with someone. It lives in its encapsulated version on its own. You're not thinking, Can I do this with you? Can I get old with you? Can I take you to my parents? Do we share similar values? it's about values life, not just about feelings. So when you're looking for the right person, it's not just what attracts you. It's who can you build a life with?

In this second section, we talk with bestselling author Devon Franklin, who shares about why we've been sold a myth about marriage. What is the biggest lesson you learned about marriage and relationships being in a committed relationship during an extremely adverse time of the world. What's the biggest lesson for you?

How much time you got? Bro, listen, I've learned so much, right? But here's the number one thing that I've learned. We have been sold a myth.

Ooh, what is that myth?

That love heals all. You know, marriage is the answer. Like, if you're not married, there's something wrong with you. Like, you gotta be in a relation. Like, we've been sold a myth. And here's what I mean about the myth. We have held marriage up like it's the top of the mountain. And when you get there, all of your problems are answered and gone.

That's not true.

It's not true. And that, that I, 'cause, you know, from being, you know, from a kid, we're watching movies, we're watching television shows, we're listening to music, it's all about love, it's all about finding it, it's all about getting to that mountain of, oh, when I find the one, then I can relax. No, marriage is like getting to the beginning of the mountain.

Oh man, base camp. Base camp.

And guess where the summit is. And guess what, that altitude is steep, it's high.

It's hard to breathe up there.

It's hard to breathe up there. It's jagged, it's not a smooth, you know, ride. That's what marriage is. And so, you know, understanding, you know, and coming into the myth of it, it's like, oh, God it, I love my wife, she loves me. The union is great. yet we got work to do. And until we do our work, the union itself can't subsidize it. And so that myth, that marriage is the answer, was one of the myths that I came completely directly had to confront. And what I realized- When did you confront it?

At what year in the marriage? Or what day?

You know, what it was is that it was gradual. It was gradual for me. And part of that gradual revelation was looking for the marriage to bring me a certain level of fulfillment that I was not actually pursuing on my own. So don't get me wrong. Yes, Marriage is great, love is great, it can be fulfilling. However, if we are not actually doing our work and finding out what makes us happy, what makes us fulfilled, and we're relying on the union to do that, we ultimately find ourselves becoming manipulators.

To get what we want.

To get what we want. We trying to like that.

Because we expect that that person or the relationship is supposed to provide us something.

Exactly.

What is the relationship supposed to provide us?

Here's what I believe a great relationship provides, right? One, first and foremost, let's look at it for a minute like a business, right? So if you have a business and you have a partner, what makes a great partnership? When both bring something to it, right? Because you have a partner.

Yeah, if your partner is just taking everything and not adding value to the business, you're like, why is this person making money?

There you go.

Why am I paying back into this person?

There you go. There you go. So, when you look at it that way, you know, the purpose of a relationship is both people making a contribution so that that contribution enriches the lives of both, right? So, I'm bringing something, you're bringing something, now we both, you know, our happiness, our joy is enhanced, it's not created. This is very important. the myth is that the marriage will create your happiness. It's not true. It can enhance it if you already have it. So, if you have a partnership both people are bringing their contributions and then as a result your business thrives. Because you have two people who are committed. Here's the second part both going in the same direction, right?

Is that related to values then or is that...

It's related to values, it's related to Purpose, you know. I had one of my friends, we were talking and they kind of gave me this visual, right? And so I think this is, and it was very helpful when it came to marriage and relationships and how to think of them. So they were like, all right, so I want you to look forward, do a visualization and I want you to look forward. and when you look forward, I want you to see God. I said, okay. And they said, Now, start walking to God. I said, Great. I'm walking to God. Now, they said, Now, your partner is right next to you, right? So, hold their hand. Great. I'm holding their hand, and now we're both walking to God. It's beautiful. Now, turn to your partner, and then they turn to you, and now try to walk to God.

It's challenging.

Exactly.

You gotta sidestep it over there, you know? He's like a crab or something.

Exactly. Precisely. So when you talk about the, you know, what is the purpose of a union? A purpose of a union is that when you have your right purpose partner and person is committed to you and you're committed to them and you both are heading in the same direction, you both can walk together.

Right.

Right.

But when you're trying to get somebody, you know, to a direction that they otherwise may not want to go.

They're turning the opposite way.

They're turning the opposite way or they're trying to get you where you may not want to go. You can't get there from there. So I believe that the purpose of a relationship is one, making a contribution to each other's happiness, having that partnership.

Not making the other person happy.

You cannot do it, and I talk about this.

Contributing to the other person's happiness.

This is why I wrote the book. This is another myth. This idea, how many times have you seen it in movies? How many times have you heard people say it? Oh, this person makes me happy. Oh, they make me so happy. It sounds so good to say, but what happens when you say someone, makes you happy, it means you are outsourcing your happiness to that person.

Ooh.

Yeah.

Because that same person that makes you happy can then make you mad. Okay, so then tell me who's in control of how you feel.

The other person.

Exactly.

So why don't- They're victim to their way of being, whatever they're doing.

Their way of being, their mood. I don't, but here's the reality. No matter how much somebody loves you, They don't, it's impossible for someone outside of us to contribute to our happiness in a perfect way 24/7.

So is love enough?

No, no, is love enough? No, you can love somebody and not stand them.

Right.

Right? I love my wife, my wife loves me. We still have to do our work and make the commitment to walk this thing out. Right, like we still have to communicate. We still have to understand like, oh, okay, that's your issue or that's my issue, right? Like so, love is great, but love is not enough. And that's the myth people think like, oh, if love is all you need. That's right. A good line of this love.

No, you makes me feel good when I hear that.

Right.

But it's not all you need.

No, you need compatibility. You need compatibility. I need compatibility. Like when you have compatibility When again, you talk about people going in the same direction, it's like, okay, cool. We're committed to going in the same direction. We're committed to the same type of life. We're committed to allowing each other to be the full self that we were created to be. That to me, in addition to love, is what can make a great marriage or make a great relationship. But love alone, it's not enough. There's a lot of people you love, you can't stand. There's a lot of people you love that you broke up with. Because you say, you know, I love them, but we're just not compatible. And that love may never go away. But so often we're romanticizing love in a way that it produces so much pain in those who don't have it.

As a movie producer that produces a lot of movies around faith and love and community and connection, I'm sure there are some lines in your movies that you produce. You didn't write the scripts.

No, I didn't write.

You produce the scripts. You produce the movies that have lines like this that maybe remind people of this way of living. You make me happy or whatever the line is. Right. I'm sure there's somewhere in one of your movies as someone who's producing certain movies for entertainment, knowing that sometimes maybe there's a line in here and there that. that's not really true for you or where you're at in relationships. How do you navigate that? Not saying it's right or wrong, but just how do you navigate that as a human knowing that's coming out in some of the entertainment?

Right.

In the movies that I do, I always try to put in truth. So this point of view is something, the movie that comes to mind that I worked on when I was an executive was Jumping the Broom. And that was a romantic comedy, an upper class family, working class family.

The.

Son from the working class family marries the woman, the daughter from the upper class family, in a weekend wedding in Martha's Vineyard. And Laz Alonso and Paula Patton were in that film. And my wife, Megan, was one of the stars of that film. And we started dating at the premiere, from the premiere, about nine months after production, which was very cool. And in that movie, we intentionally put, worked on that to make sure we put real truth on the difficulty, right? Of like, yeah, you can, two people can love each other, but then what do you do with their families? How do you navigate conflict? How do you navigate an overbearing mother? How do you navigate, you know, parents who have a certain image for what they wanted for their daughter and who their daughter's marrying doesn't align with the image? And so that movie has a lot of truth in it. And ultimately, you know, we didn't cut corners at all. And that's why the movie was so successful. and I'm getting ready to do another romantic comedy and we're putting more truth in. So for me, I'm always mindful and cognizant of how I feel and think about love, and I try to represent that when I'm doing movies that are on that subject. Because I'm not trying to sell a fantasy. I want to sell the reality and that yes, you can win and yes, when you find that partner that you fall in love with.

But there are challenges.

There's gonna be challenges.

There'll be more challenges in different classes or different backgrounds.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

I'm a big believer, whether this is true or not, that we talk about, we write, we podcast on the things that we become experts on the things that we need the most. Yes. So, the School of Greatness, I talk about all subjects. So it means I'm flawed in pretty much every area of life.

I don't believe that.

And I'm constantly looking for more ways to improve, right?

Yeah.

Where do you feel like in the relationship side of things that you, I think I asked you this question last time a couple years ago, where do you feel like you still need the most improvement in relationships for you?

Yeah, so I need the most improvement in a number of areas.

How long do we have? Exactly. Let's do a new piece of paper.

Hey, hey, hey, I have not perfected this thing. and I'm working on it every day, and anybody that tells you they've perfected it, they're gonna lie about everything else. So the first area that I'm working on, and you may relate to this because of the work that you do. You know, my father passed away when I was nine years old. You know, he passed away from a heart attack when he was 36. And that was a very traumatic, you know, experience for me and my brothers. And so my older brother's three and a half years older. my younger brother's three and a half years younger. And so coming out of that, you know, my mother didn't have money for therapy or anything like that. And so, you know, we were in church and we watched movies, right? And so, and then also I was very active in school. And what I began to see is like, oh, okay, if I perform or achieve at a certain level, people would say, oh, Devon, good job, right? Pat me on the back, right? So I said, oh, got it. So the more that I serve at church, or the more I achieve at school, or the more that I do my chores at home, the more approval I would get. So what I began to do was I began to seek that out. And I began to become really good at meeting everybody else's need. And so that persona, right, of like, oh, you need something done, give it to Devon.

Right?

It's like, oh yeah, I'm your guy. I can do it, da-da-da-da, right? 'Cause I was finding my value in all of the achievement and all of the approval that came with it. In middle school, people started calling me Mr.

Perfect.

And at first, I was like, oh, this is great. I love that. Oh, wow, Mr. Perfect, right? But then as I got older, it became a trap.

Why?

Because I'm not perfect. No one's perfect. But I had this image that I had to live up to. I had this expectation of myself that, oh, I've got to do everything perfectly. So getting to your question- It's a lot of pressure. Oh, my goodness, are you kidding me? It's exhausting. It's exhausting. That's why I talk about in the book, I had to kill Mr. Perfect. I said, I gotta let go of this persona because, you know, I'm not that and I need to be who I really am. And so, when you talk about what the area I need to improve on, so, you know, bringing that into marriage, right? Like, hey, I'm here to serve and I'm here to be the best husband I can be and I'm here to give and I'm here to sacrifice.

Oh, that's beautiful. But when it crosses boundaries.

But here's the boundary though. The problem is that no matter how altruistic you or I may want to be in our relationships with our women, if we do not first acknowledge that we have needs, our altruism is flawed.

How so?

We are serving in order to fill the hole in our soul.

To get approval.

To get approval to get approval. There you go.

Get patted on the back.

There you go. You know, and then also it's like, oh, well, no, I don't have any needs. No, I'm here to meet your need. No, you're human. I'm human. I got needs.

I think I can relate to this big time for most of my life until up until recently, I would do things in order to receive love in relationships.

Yes.

And I would not do things.

If.

Someone got upset at me, I would not do those things anymore to just try to make them happy so they would continue to love me. Even when it would cross my boundaries or when I didn't agree with something, I would do it to make the other person like me, love me, make, you know, be happy with me. And then I found myself resenting myself the longer that would go on because I was doing things that I didn't believe in or didn't agree with or there was a boundary of mine that was crossing my line to serve someone else. I think it's learning that balance probably, like navigating and learning how to communicate expectations, which is a lot about in your book, which I love. The whole book is about setting clear expectations and not going into a relationship with the viewpoint of, well, this is the way a relationship is supposed to look based on society. Just thinking that the other person knows what you think and they know and you know what they think and having that is not gonna work.

It ain't gonna work. It ain't gonna work.

And after nine years, not to put your marriage on the spot or anything, but after nine years, how important is still communicating expectations nine years into marriage?

Man, it's every day, right? Oh, oh, you can't autopilot this thing.

You can't say, this is what I expect one day and then it'd be good for the rest of life.

Never. It will not work. It won't work. And here's why, you know, I go back to that, our flaws, right? We're all flawed. All of us, and all of us have traumas and tragedies and things that we have experienced in our life that we have compartmentalized. And that's why I go back to this earlier thought of like, you know, the myth that marriage is gonna, you know, it's gonna save you and it's everything. The reason why I think that's a myth is because the more you are with somebody and the more that you love them and they love you, the more those flaws.

Fears come out.

The fears come out. The trauma because of vulnerability. And you're actually sharing your life with someone and you're allowing someone to see who you are, and there's also certain things you don't know that you've gone through that have impacted you to the level that they have.

It's coming up now.

Exactly. And so in a great relationship, it serves as a great mirror. So when you talk about setting expectations, you know, nine years in, it doesn't stop because all of us are changing. And also to that point, you we have to learn to communicate. We have to get our words out. We have to say, okay, you know, hey, babe, can I expect this? Can you expect that? Let's get to the middle so that we understand, okay, cool. Here's what I can hold you accountable for. Here's what you can hold me accountable for instead of assuming. And that assumption, again, no matter how much they love you, no matter how long you've been together, no one can read our minds.

No one.

No one.

No one. And so when you start behaving, and then here's what happens. Dude, we have these unspoken expectations. Unspoken expectations are relationship killers. You have this unspoken expectation. You treat the person as if you have spoken it and they know it.

And you fault them for not knowing it.

And then you judge them. You judge them when they don't meet the expectation they may not have been aware of. And then you make a false assumption about their intent for you.

They don't care about me, they don't believe me, they don't think about me.

There you go.

They're selfish, whatever.

There you go. And so in our head, we become the judge and jury over somebody.

Without even telling them. Without even telling them what they were supposed to do.

Exactly. And giving them the opportunity to say yes or no.

That's it.

That's it. Because too often in relationships, we're trying to control. And so, just because you have an expectation, it does not mean that person is obligated to meet it. That person has to agree. That person that you're with is free. The same way you're free, okay? And if they want to meet that expectation, great. And if they don't, then you can talk about what that means. Hey, okay, you know, I have a certain expectation. Okay, that's not something you want to meet. All right, let's talk about if we are compatible. Let's talk about if we are going in the same direction. Very important. Instead, we suppress. We allow these feelings to fester. We get mad. We then get bitter. And then someone asks us a question. We turn a cold shoulder. It's like, well, why? Because we haven't actually communicated. We haven't actually asked the question, Hey, can I expect this from you? Is this okay? Is this all right? Is it not? Is it cool? And so that's why in the book I spend so much time talking about communication. locating expectations, learning to set expectations just because they know, because they love you doesn't mean they know. And, and, and I have seen so many relationships go by the wayside because there was this idea, this myth that, oh, just because they love me, they're supposed to know what I want. No, they don't know. Everybody has a different upbringing.

Exactly.

They were exposed to love and marriage in different ways. And so what may look like love to somebody may look like debt to somebody else. So you gotta communicate and find the happy medium of what works for your relationship.

How do we learn to love ourselves so much that it doesn't matter what our partner does or doesn't do?

Oh man, Lord have mercy.

Is there a way where you can fall in love with yourself without a sense of ego? Yes. Like I'm God, but love yourself so much that it doesn't matter if your partner meets your expectations communicated or uncommunicated, whether they're supporting you in the way that you want or not, whether they're proud of you or not, is there a way that we could do that? Or should we be expecting something out of our relationship in return, you know, either way?

Bro, listen, listen, man. You know, listen, my views on this may be a little contrarian, so I'm just gonna take my turn.

Yeah, yeah.

One of, so I'll answer the love question in a minute of self, but I want to hit the piece that you just hit, which is the expectation, right?

Yes.

I personally believe that if you give to get in a relationship, you are on thin ice and the sun is coming out. Because-.

Right.

Right.

Right, because again, what happens is you're not free. You're not free. You're not actually giving from your heart because that's what you want to do. You're giving from manipulation.

To get something in return.

To get something in return. So you're treating that relationship like the stock market, right? Well, yeah, if I give a certain amount of money to a certain stock or portfolio, I can expect a certain return.

Yeah, hopefully it goes up.

Right, hopefully it goes up, right? But that's the dynamic, you know? But relationship is not stocks, man. That's somebody's heart, that's somebody's life. And so when you're investing in someone with the hope that they'll do something for you, you're messed up.

What if that person never contributes in the way you contribute, let's say, after years? Is it the right relationship still?

Okay, this is true.

Should you let go of the expectation? Well, I don't know. need that in return. Great.

So here's how I think you answered that, and I want to hit the love part too. So I believe everyone should give freely from how they feel and want to feel, and they give to that person because that's what's in their heart to do. Over time, it's not an indictment on that person if that person isn't giving as much. It just may be a revelatory about compatibility.

Right?

It's like, oh, okay, got it. The person that's giving, I'm in a relationship, you're in a relationship because you have needs, you want those needs to be met. Oh, okay, I'm seeing there's an imbalance. I feel great about everything I'm giving, but I also recognize that there are some needs that are not being met. And maybe there's some compatibility issues we need to talk about.

Or you can communicate about it and see if that's right.

That's exactly what right? Like, hey, you know, look, I have needs. I'm in a relationship because I want people to contribute to these needs. Like, I'm going to be fine no matter what, but I'm in this relationship because I actually love the idea of someone else, you know, contributing to my well-being. So, you have to assess it and see if there's compatibility and alignment, not pointing the finger. Because so often we're so ready to point the finger. Oh, this person's not giving as much as me. Oh, It's like, no, no, no. If life is a mirror, what is the mirror reflecting? What is a relationship reflecting? And oftentimes in my experience, relationships are the greatest teachers.

Greatest.

Of who we are.

Greatest. Right?

Who we are and who we aren't, okay? Like, like, and too often people run from difficult relationships. I believe that you should, whatever the lesson is you got to get about.

You, before you break up within the relationship.

There you go.

There you go. Because then you take that healing to the next relationship.

Yes.

If your relationship is revealing your own brokenness and your issues that you got to deal with, and then you're saying to that other person, oh, it's your fault. That brokenness and that healing that you didn't do, you're taking it wherever you go.

Next, we talk with therapist Lori Gottlieb, who talks about redefining the stories about yourself that are holding you back from finding and accepting real love. So people come in because they're in pain and they want the pain to go away.

Yeah.

And they've tried, maybe they've tried something else that didn't work and you're like, talk medicine, right? Without having to take a pill, how can I relieve this pain, this suffering, this problem? But the problem, what I'm hearing you say is never about another person. It's always with them.

Well, not always. I think that relationally a lot of people don't realize that even if the other person is problematic. So, right, when I was training, one of my clinical supervisors once said, before diagnosing someone with depression, make sure they aren't surrounded by a**holes. Right.

Right?

So, you know, it's not like there aren't problematic people out there. Their environment. Right, but then what is your response to that? And I think that people don't realize how much agency they have. They don't realize that they can choose their response. to their circumstances. They can choose their response to the people around them. And I'm not saying that there aren't incredibly daunting circumstances right now in the world, for example. But then how do you respond? What are you going to do about it? And I think that's where people get stuck.

And you talk—I love your TED Talk because you talk about rewriting your story from the past. And I believe that we hold onto our stories and we probably continue to write them in a more powerful way that keeps us trapped or traumatized. Is that fair to say that something happens in our past? We hold onto the story daily or whenever we're triggered and it amplifies the story in our minds.

Well, it does. And the problem is that often whatever that version of the story is, we carry with us and we never revise it. And so you create a story when you're younger, for example, about something that happened in your life. And then as an adult, you've never looked at that story through the adult lens. You're still looking at it through the childhood lens. And so that's why I say that when people come in that we're all unreliable narrators.

Yes.

That we all tell a story through, you know, this lens. And the thing is these are usually faulty narratives. So there's a broader version of the story that people haven't looked at. And so I feel like in a lot of ways what I do as a therapist is I act as an editor and have of course a writing background. And so I help people to revise their stories because the reason they can't move forward in the story, the reason they can't get to the next chapter is because of something is wrong with the story. They are stuck. And so it's almost like I'm helping them with writer's block.

I mean for me, life is an interpretation.

Yes. Right?

There's an instance that happens and we can interpret it as good or bad. or we can interpret it as this is a neutral event and I'm gonna make the most of this. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, absolutely. And also how we attribute other people's parts of the story, right? So who are the villains and the heroes in the story? You know, I talk in the book about the difference between idiot compassion and wise compassion. And idiot compassion is what our friends do. They back up our story no matter what. We say, this happened. This happened with my boss. this happened with my partner, this happened with my parent, right? This happened with my best friend. And we say, yeah, that was terrible. Screw them, they're a jerk. You know, that's awful. You're right, they're wrong. Don't let anyone treat you that way. That's what we do. And if you listen to your friend's stories, you start to realize over time that even though the situation and the names might be different, the kind of story they're telling is similar. It's kind of like if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to, maybe It's you.

Yeah, exactly.

We don't say that. That's idiot compassion.

Idiot compassion is where we as friends say, yeah, you're the best person in the world. This person is horrible. Leave them or let them go. Forget about them. They're so bad at what they did. There's always two sides to every story.

Well, right. And so the value of therapy is that we offer wise compassion. We hold up a mirror to you and help you to see yourself in a way that maybe you haven't been willing or able to do. And that's where the other version of the story comes in.

So how do we have wise compassion for our friends when they're like, she cheated on me, he left me, they had an affair, whatever. How do we change our story and also show compassion that we're there for our friend, not making, when they're in a vulnerable place, not making the other person right or wrong, but being there for them. and also kind of giving them some tough love, I guess?

I wouldn't call it tough love. I would just call it-- Reality.

Love. Love.

It's love. It's much more loving to be truthful in a compassionate way. So I sometimes call them compassionate truth bombs because we need to hear them. But how do we do it? It has to do with timing and dosage. So the timing is when they're really raw, when something just happened. You know, now's not the time. time to say, you know, this has happened with your last three boyfriends.

Maybe you're the problem here.

Have you noticed that going through people's phones is not working well for you? We are not gonna say that maybe in that moment. So that's timing. And then the dosage is how much are you going to say in a particular moment and in a particular conversation? It doesn't all have to happen in one conversation. So I think that that has to do with being a good listener. and a lot of us don't know how to listen. And I think it's really helpful. I see a lot of couples in my practice too. And if you can say to the person, when they come to you with something, how can I be helpful in this conversation right now? I know you're really hurting. Do you wanna just vent? Do you wanna hug? Do you want me to help problem solve with you? Do you want my honest opinion or do you want me to hold off and we can have that conversation another time? Let them tell you what they want so you can give them something that is helpful to them in that moment, and then in another conversation, you might be able to offer them something more.

When they're not completely raw or broken.

Yes.

That hurt. Yes. So what is that specific question when anyone's coming to you with a challenge or a complaint or hurt, what's the question you should ask them?

How can I be helpful to you right now? I know you're really hurting.

What does that do for the person who's hurting when they hear that?

It helps them to reflect on, oh wait, what do I need?

Right?

Am I just gonna download all of this stuff and then I'm not gonna feel any different at the end? Or is there something else that I want right now? And maybe downloading it will make them feel different. Just make them feel seen and understood and heard, which is important. Or maybe they want something else, but let them tell you. And I think the other thing is these three words that are really helpful when they're talking to you are tell me more. So instead of Saying, you know, when they say like, oh, here's what's going on. And we say, oh, well, we try to cheer them up. Like, you know, here's what you can do. We try to fix it. We try to cheer them up. We try to make it seem like it's not so bad. Whatever we do. Instead, just say, tell me more. We do this with our kids. I can say as a parent, we do this all the time, right? So your kid comes to you and says, you know, I'm really sad about this, or I'm really worried about this. We say, oh, don't worry.

No, it's not a problem.

We say, oh, don't be sad, right? Go have ice cream. Let's go to the rug. Right, exactly. But the thing is that then you get the message as a kid that like, oh wait, I'm not supposed to feel this. And really what it is is we get uncomfortable as parents with our kids' feelings.

Why is that?

Because we can't, we are uncomfortable with feelings. We grew up in a way where feelings were messy, feelings were uncomfortable, feelings were something that, you know, they were gonna be trouble. As opposed to feelings.

Stop crying, stop crying.

As opposed to just, you know, feelings are actually a great thing. People say, oh, there are these negative feelings like sadness, anxiety, anger, whatever. Even envy. I always say feelings are like a compass. They tell us what direction to go in. So with envy, for example, I say follow your envy. It tells you what you want. If you are feeling envy, That's great because it says, what do I desire? It puts you in touch with your desire. What is it that I desire? And what steps can I take to get something like that in my own life? If you're feeling sad, if you're feeling anxious, what is not working right now that you can look at if you stuff down that feeling, if you pretend it's not there, it just gets bigger. And here's what happens. It doesn't go away. It comes out in too much food, Alcohol, drugs, insomnia, a short-temperedness, inability to function, distractibility, that mindless scrolling we all do through the internet. A colleague of mine said that the internet was like the most effective short-term non-prescription painkiller out there.

Wow.

And so what happens is your feelings are still there, but you're not dealing with them.

What happens when we never deal with our emotions or feelings?

Well, you first of all get sick. Physically sick, emotionally sick, mentally sick. Everything, everything, right? So we have, just like we have a physical immune system, we have a psychological immune system. And we have to take care of our psychological immune system. So it's just like, you know, what do you do to keep healthy with your body? Like you're gonna eat right, you're gonna exercise, you know, you're gonna do all the things that you want to do to take take care of yourself, you're going to get enough sleep. Those things also help your psychological immune system. They're not totally separate. The mind-body connection is profound. But at the same time, are you going to be around people who don't nourish you? That's going to hurt your psychological immune system. That's going to make you sick. Are you going to stuff down your feelings? That's going to make you sick. And so how do we take care of ourselves? And part of it is, instead of trying to numb out your feelings because numbness isn't the absence of feelings. Numbness is a state of being overwhelmed by too many feelings.

Wow.

And then not only do you not experience the feelings that you don't want to experience, but you don't experience the other feelings. You mute one feeling, you mute the others. You mute the pain, you mute the joy. So you're living in this state where you don't actually get to feel the range of feelings that make us human.

What is that state called?

I was gonna say dead. I mean, I feel like you can be alive but not living. And that's what happens to people, is that they're alive, they're going through the motions, they wake up every day, but they're not really living their lives.

What's an assessment we could take for ourselves, if someone's listening or watching, to ask themselves how alive or how dead they are, and if the people in their life closest are actually good for them, or are hurting their psychological states. Is there a questionnaire we could take just off the cuff? Is there an assessment? Is there a few things we could ask ourselves?

Yeah, I think that it has to do with a sense of vitality, right? Which of course, like vitality, the word life is right in there. When you wake up in the morning, are you excited about what you're doing? Is there meaning in what you're doing? Do you feel connected to how you're spending your days. Because at the end of your life, are you going to look back and say, what did I do that was meaningful? You know, in maybe you should talk to someone in my book, there's a woman that I treat, she's this young woman who goes on her honeymoon, she's newly married, she comes back, and she has cancer. And she says to me at one point, she says, why do we need a terminal diagnosis?

To have a wake-up call.

Why do we need a terminal diagnosis to live our lives with intention? Why do we need that to really pay attention? And I think that if we can keep the awareness of death sitting on one shoulder, and I don't mean in a morbid way or in a creepy way, it's not depressing. It's actually, again, going back to vitality, it helps us feel alive because life has 100% mortality rate and that's not for other people. We like to believe that, right? And so the thing is that if we know that we have a a limited time here, I think we would pay more attention to what we're actually doing every day.

Why is it so hard for people to pay attention?

Fear.

But they feel like they're stuck sometimes for years. It's like I stay stuck in a relationship that I know is not right for me for years. I stay in a depressed state for years. I stay in a job that I hate for years. It's all based on fear?

Well, I think it is fear. you know, I think it's fear of uncertainty. This is going to sound strange, but change is really hard because we cling to something that's familiar to us. So even though we may know, oh, this would help me. This would be a good change for me. We don't do it because it's unfamiliar. And so if you grew up with a lot of chaos, if you grew up feeling sad all the time or anxious all the time, that feels like home to you, even if it's unpleasant or even miserable.

She'll keep finding chaotic environments. Right.

And recreating it.

Yeah. And so, you know, it was funny because my own therapist gave me this great analogy. He said to me, he said, you remind me of this cartoon, and it's of a prisoner shaking the bars, desperately trying to get out. But on the right and the left, it's open, right? No bars. So basically, the prisoner is not in jail. And that's what so many of us are like. We feel trapped. We're not in jail. We can change. We can just walk around the bars. But why don't we? Because with freedom, the freedom to walk around the bars, comes responsibility. And if we're responsible for our own lives, that scares us. We feel like, oh, I don't know if I can do that. I don't know if I'm competent enough to do that. Or now I'm to blame if things don't go right.

I can't blame it on everything else. Is this one of the reasons why Inmates after a long time being in prison who get out go back into prison because they feel like they need to be back in that environment or are there other reasons?

I think there are other reasons. I think we don't give people the support when they come out. You know, the mental health issues that they needed to be treated for were never, you know, they never got that support. Then they come out and they're back in the same situation where they don't have that community support.

Why is it so hard for us to take responsibility for our own happiness?

I think that if you grew up in a household where you were seen and heard and understood, those are the people who do take responsibility for their own happiness. I think for people who felt like they were ripped off in their childhoods, there's a part of them that's still in a fight. There's a part of them that still wants that redo. And so it's kind of like they're not aware of this. But what they're saying is basically, I will not change mom and dad until you give me the things that I did not get in childhood.

So they'll go find a partner that emulates their environment from mom and dad and try to change them so they- well, right.

This is the irony of relationship, right? For those people who have not sort of worked through it. This is so common. And I think all of us have this peace in us, right? Because nobody we had a perfect childhood. So what happens is people say, okay, when I'm an adult, I'm gonna pick a partner who really makes me feel nourished, who really gives me all those things that I did not get growing up. But what they don't realize is unconsciously they have this radar for the people who look very different from their parents on the surface. But then once they get into that relationship, it's kind of like, -oh, this feels familiar. Right? And so what they did was their unconscious said when they were picking their partner, hey, you look familiar. Come closer. Even though consciously they thought, oh, you're totally different from my parents. This is gonna work out great. But no, they have radar for that if they haven't worked out the stuff that's sort of their unfinished business. There's this saying, we marry our unfinished business. We actually do marry our unfinished business. So that is why it is so important as an adult to take responsibility and say, you know what? I am going to have to grieve this loss of what I didn't get, and I'm going to have to work through this and assess where I am as an adult so that I pick people and surround myself with people who are healthy for me.

What if you've chosen someone that you love deeply, but it's unconsciously your unfinished business? Is that the wrong person for you once you realize, oh, they're never gonna change, Or is that a point for us to reflect back and say, actually, I need to heal the past, accept this person for who they are, and be willing to flow within this relationship?

Well, what happens is, so you married your unfinished business, but so did they. And so if you can both recognize that, if you realize, hey, wait, we have a lot of conflict in our relationship, or we're really avoidant in our relationship, or we don't feel connected in the way we want to feel connected, That's a great opportunity for both of you to work out your unfinished business.

To heal together.

To heal together, right.

And so that relationship could thrive.

If you both are willing to look in the mirror at yourselves and do the work, yes, that could be a really beautiful relationship. And it could be very healing for both of you, in fact.

It could potentially be the strongest bond ever if you both were able to go through that. But if you're unwilling to go through that, Then what?

You're gonna be in- Both people have.

To- Right, well both people have to be willing. I mean that's the thing. So it's like you may wake up one day and say, oh wait a minute, I have all this unfinished business and then your partner says, yeah, it's all you. You're the problem in the relationship. You know it's kind of like in couples therapy so often I'll see something like someone will say, you never listen to me. And I will say, how well do.

You listen to them?

Right.

Right?

It's always like- if you're just yelling at someone all day, are they gonna wanna listen to you?

Right.

Right, so you know, there's this dance that we do in relationship and what happens is people are doing these dance steps and people become very, they become very ingrained. It's like, oh, here we go. You can script out people's arguments.

You know exactly what they're gonna look like. It starts with one thing and then.

It goes back into many different things where you're like, oh, I don't know. And you know exactly how it's gonna go and who's gonna feel what and who's gonna accuse the other person of what. And that's the dance. And so if one person changes their dance steps, the other person either is going to fall flat on the dance floor, or they're gonna have to change their steps too if they want to keep dancing.

Next we talk with Pastor Michael Todd who shares how to build a strong foundation in the beginning of a relationship and how to do the work to be a better partner. How does someone learn to believe in their worthiness?

Yeah. Period.

Whether there's success or not success. Because sometimes people achieve everything and still don't believe in the worthiness.

They still don't believe in the worthiness.

So how do we get to that place?

So for me, this is an answer that goes back to what I really believe. And I'm a pastor by nature. I work in all types of different fields, but there was a place in my life that I didn't feel worthy of anything. And I believe that there is a higher power, a divine creator, God Jesus, for me is what I believe with my whole heart that transformed my life. And what ended up happening in this process for me, Lou, was I was a bad person. like how I became a pastor, the whole nine addicted to all kinds of different things, all that other stuff. And at my lowest moment, I was reading the Bible, and for the first time in a long time, I felt loved. I felt worthy. I felt like, you know, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son whosoever believes in him could not perish but have everlasting life. And like, Hold on, like all of this happened on a maybe, like whoa, like hold on somebody while I was yet a sinner doing everything that was filthy and jagged and raggedy and horrible, like you love me and I started reading these scriptures and something connected in my heart. I can't explain it people like that's not real. Nobody can take this experience away from me because I know who I was and I know how jacked up I was. and I know how backwards my thinking was, and I know how perverted I was, and I know how manipulative I was. The person I am today is only because I found my worthiness in a creator, not from a creation. A car is a creation, but there's a creator. Our phones are a creation, that iPad's a creation, but the creator, people, people, creations, but from the creator, that's where you only can find identity. And so, I went back and I just went on this journey of discovering my faith and discovering God and discovering and what I came out of that with bro, nobody could ever take anything away from me. I got not happiness, I got joy. I didn't get relief, I got peace. I didn't get a sexual satisfying experience. I got love and from that place I begin to take steps of progression on my purpose. I started forgiving people. Do you know what type of weight it is lifted off of your life when you walk forgiving people?

It's amazing. Bro, it is like holding your grudge is heavy, man.

It is devastating. But it gave me the ability and the power to begin to forgive people that I was holding grudges to say sorry, to own up to stuff. And it's crazy how when you become a better person, moving and maneuvering in the image of Christ, in my opinion, and in my belief and in my experience, it changes everything around you. I'm able to be a light anywhere I go. Like people don't have to believe how I believe or anything. And I come in and I'm like, Man, I like talking to you. I was like, Bro, you would have hated talking to me seven years ago. But let me tell you what happened to me. And that's where I say, like, you cannot find identity in something that didn't create you. And, and, and if my iPhone breaks, I don't go to Honda to figure out how to get it fixed. Not because Honda's didn't make something. It's because they didn't, they didn't make that.

Right.

I would go to Apple. The same thing with me and you. I really do believe when you need to find the origination, even if you had bad parents, had a traumatic past, you did things that were horrible. like, when you go back and you connect to your faith and you see what God says about you, how you're fearfully and wonderfully made, you're the head and not the tail, you're beautifully and wonderfully made. There's a purpose before you were even formed in your mother's womb. God knew you and that he has a plan and a purpose for you. When you start taking off the lies and believing the truth, I'm telling you, from that place, it starts to transform and change everything. And the only reason I'm sitting here talking to you is because I went through that transformation process, and now I'm able to live in joy, hope, peace, and I just hope that everybody experienced that at some place in their life, bro.

I love that, man. And you said you can't heal what you won't reveal. About eight years ago, I started to share my shame, the things that I was afraid to reveal, and I wasn't able to heal. I realized that statement that you said right there is so powerful for me because for 25 years, I was holding on to pain, shame, resentment, anger, frustration, and I've talked about this many times publicly about dealing with sexual abuse as a child, holding on to that for so long. It wasn't until I started to share the shame where I was able to start the healing process. And I think a lot of people hide their shame, and it's hard to heal if you're hiding. Right. It's really hard to.

So good.

So how does someone get to a place of sharing? opening up, revealing so that they can heal when it is so dark, so painful, so traumatic from something in the past.

So this is where counseling comes in heavy, you know what I'm saying? Or good, in my opinion, godly community, like people who you can tell that won't trash you while you're peeling back this onion.

Like, you know what I'm saying?

You're super vulnerable. Well, you're super vulnerable. And I just People make circles based on success a lot of times in networking instead of making circles based on insulation. When you have a circle around you, you need an insulation, you need people you can be your 100% self with and they protect you and cover you, not cover up, but cover you and help lead you to the right place. And for me, I had that, I had a good godly community as well as we had counseling. And sometimes you've got to be able to be put in positions that make you answer questions you don't want to answer and talk about things that nobody wants to like when they start asking you what's one thing that happened to you when you were younger and I encourage everybody to ask you this. What's one thing that happened to you when you were younger that negatively shaped who you are today?

Yeah, a lot of things for me.

But see, if you answer that question honestly, you start opening up things that probably there needs to be some more conversations about.

What happens if we don't open up and talk about those things?

It's the same thing that happens when you put food that was good at one point and you leave it by your bed for three months. It festers. Yes, it spoils, it rots.

It's a matter of time.

And then it attracts. Hold on, watch. It attracts things that will eat off of it. This is what some of our relationships look like. And then it becomes the aroma of your living.

Ooh, it becomes your environment.

It becomes your environment. It doesn't matter how many millions you spend on the bedroom, if something's rotting in the corner. It doesn't matter how many Gucci Prada, it doesn't matter how many Maserati, it doesn't matter how many times you 10x'd it, it doesn't matter if your soul is rotting, if your love is spoiled, if your emotions have eroded. And that's what I tell people, a lot of times we dress up something that is completely contaminated. And I just didn't want to live like that. I was affecting people could smell the aroma of my life. Have you ever met somebody like something?

Yeah.

That'S what a lot of us look like spiritually, emotionally and in our relationships is because we haven't dealt with the things. And it's been there since you were six, seven. 15, 22.

They don't teach us how to deal with these things.

No, no. And that's why for me, especially in my context, especially in church and business and all that, I'm like yo, we got to talk about relationships, we got to talk about counseling, we got to talk about inner healing, we got to talk about our faith, we got to talk about this because I've seen too many people get to what they thought was the mountain top and it feel emptier, then a different season in their life.

I want to bring it back to jealousy for a second.

Let's go.

Why are we jealous human beings? And is there a place in which we can be completely not jealous of our partner or someone else?

Yeah. So jealousy is our nature. We are all born with a nature that you do not. I have kids. I don't have to teach them how to be bad. like all of my kids learn no mind. I never taught any of my kids those words. I have to teach them share. I have to teach them give.

Yeah.

Can contribute. Can help.

Yeah.

We're all born with what I call a lower nature, a sin nature that's in us. And jealousy is the primary nature that is formed there all the way back to Cain and Abel. It.

It.

The first two brothers kill each other over jealousy. It's our nature. And so what you have to do is fight that nature with the thing that is countered that nature. So when you think jealousy, when you think competition, when you think selfishness, you have to do the opposite of those things. You have to celebrate others. You have to be generous. You have to give. The only way to put out the fire is give it the opposite thing. And so I found in my life that again, you got to be, we can't act like this stuff is not real because we'll never deal with it. A lot of people won't even admit they're jealous of something, jealous that the friend got a new house or everybody's getting married and they're not or jealous that that doesn't even happen. So those people, they just tuned us out right now. But for anybody that would actually admit Hey, there's areas in my life that I wish I had what they had. I'm coveting those things. When you start to give what you wish you had, somehow those things begin to come into your life in a different way, or you don't desire them anymore. And that's how I have found for me that I give what I desire to have. It's the principle of sewing. Okay, so when we were in a season, I'll talk about it business wisE when I was in a season of not making a lot of money and was trying to really figure out like how am I going to like, I want to marry this girl, I want to do this, I need savings, I need investments, all that other stuff. And I heard so strongly in my time of devotion, hey, you need to give something to somebody who's where you want to be. They already got it. That doesn't make sense. and it was almost like instead of looking at what they had and trying to be like, I wish I had that, okay, become a part of it. Sow into it. Give what you desire to somebody else and help their journey. And it's the principle of sowing and reaping. You're always going to reap whatever you sow. So you might as well sow good things because everything you give out is coming back.

Right.

With friends.

And hopefully it's good friends.

If you saw good seed. But if you didn't, it's coming back with friends. And that was a game changing moment and I've become generous. Generosity kills jealousy. Like when you start helping people, giving to people, networking with people. And then the other thing that's very practical with jealousy If you don't see it, you won't be jealous of it. So many people are jealous because of overexposure. There are certain things I'm not supposed to know about somebody else's life, but because of the culture we live in today, I'm jealous of things that I didn't even know existed.

It used to be in the, I guess, 50s and 60s, the Joneses, where it's like the neighbor. Yeah, you saw the neighbor's house and car.

You didn't go see everyone's house and car on social media. And that's where again, I think we come back to the idea of margin. Like there are days of every week that I cut off my social media. Like there are time periods when I go on that sabbatical, I'm off of social media the whole month. A month.

Are people posting for you though?

No.

Nothing.

I tell them to go black.

Wow.

Now think about this, when I'm talking to book publishers and people I've made contracts with and everything like that and telling them, hey, just before we sign this. I want you to know that once a year, I go black, I won't be posting, I won't be promoting, I won't be doing anything. And I'm telling you, they freak out. And I said, but I promise you, when I do this, it's going to make me more fruitful in everything else I do. And now any partner that's been with me, they're like, oh, we understand now. They still scared to do it. But, but, and again, I went off the number. I was, by the grace of God, I was on the number one New York Times bestseller for three and we were on the top 10 New York Times bestseller list for 15 weeks in a row. I went off a New York Times bestseller list because I went on sabbatical. So I knew I was going to take myself off of the New York Times bestseller list because I was going to stop promoting my book. And I did it. Now, for some people, that would seem stupid. For me, that was success. I was unattached.

Yeah. My worth to the results.

Yeah.

Was not based on being on New York Times Sellers, best seller for 30 weeks. Never went back on it yet. Haven't got back. It's not like I'm trying to. No, the fact I'm just grateful the fact that we did it once. Yeah, it happened. But I'm still worth it. I'm still a good guy. I'm still loved. I'm still. no matter if I'm somebody in the book publishing world may think I'm nothing, but I know who I am. And those are the type of decisions that are countercultural that people don't understand. But that's why I have my peace. That's why I'm full of joy. That's why when I talk to you, I don't got to put on any type of allure and act like I'm bigger than I am. Because I'm actually when all of this is over, I'm gonna be good. Like I'm actually go back to the hotel with my daughters. take them to the pool. I'm actually going to enjoy and be fulfilled in what I believe God has called me to do. And so it really is one of those things that jealousy many times comes from being overexposed. So if you would limit your exposure, it would help you. Think about it. When horses run in the Preakness and in the Kentucky Derby, there's a very inexpensive piece of equipment that is very...

Blinders, as a focus.

Very intentional, effective to them, and effective to the horses winning blinders. And the reason is because if they could see the other horses, they would go into their lanes and be disqualified.

Oh my goodness.

Think about how many of us are distracted and getting ultimately disqualified because we're jealous of somebody else's lane. When we already have our own to run.

You gotta run our own race.

Come on, bro.

We gotta run our own race, bro. Come on, bro.

And for some reason, it's not sexy enough to have one lane. You gotta have 10 lanes.

You want every lane.

You want the track.

You want the world.

And I'm just saying, maybe, just maybe, I'm not saying I know everything, but maybe the end result of running in several lanes is not the fulfillment in the success that we think it is.

How do you create a financial abundant mindset as a pastor of a church where it's probably, I'm assuming, taboo to be talking money or be thinking, let's build wealth and abundance as a pastor as a church. You guys have publicly announced acquiring this $40 million arena center in Tulsa, which is amazing and creating communities and opportunities for people there. How did you one go from not acquiring a lot of wealth and an abundance mindset? Maybe you had before. How did you transition that knowing that I am a pastor where people are going to judge me based on how much money we bring in based on these things? How do you manage that stigma maybe and also be at peace with creating financial abundance? And how can we learn to create financial buzz in a spiritual way?

Yeah, yeah. So, I love that question. That's a good question, bro. I think the first thing that you have to realize is I'm aware of the landscape of most pastors in the world when it comes to finances where there's been a lot of abuse. There's been a lot of misuse.

Mistrust.

And so, the first thing that I did when I came in as a pastor is I decided it goes back to what I've talked about in relationship. Fair enough. It's going to be completely transparent.

Yeah.

So, like, every year we tell the church, every dollar, every cent that came in, we tell them that every dollar that comes in 10 plus percent is going out in missions. We let people know what we're doing, how it's going to happen. And you can't make anybody give to a non-profit you cannot make anybody. I mean, they have to do that on their own. We don't make a big deal about any of those things. We decided that finances would be the fruit and not the focus. And I think that's something that everybody needs to adapt. A lot of times money and finances is the focus. But I believe that if you make the focus people, the focus reaching purpose, the focus helping others then finances is the fruit, not the focus. Yes. And for us, that has been our entire mission. When I took over our church, we started in a converted grocery store in the hood Tulsa. So, like, I didn't come from this big machine of people understanding. There was less than 300 people that came to my church, and most of them was sitting there like, he not gonna make it. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, let's be honest. And. And I just told people that this is going to be a generous church. And I remember it. I remember the day everything changed for our church. I was reading a book by another Pastor named Robert Morris called the Blessed Life. and he was talking about how many churches and non-profits talk about give to get, give to get. And really the principle of the Bible and God is give to give, not to get. Like we're giving just as an extension of love, not because not expecting something. No, like for God so loved the world that he gave like without an expectation of return. And I said, that's what we're gonna do. I went to our platform, less than 300 people in our church. And I said, hey, guys, today I just really feel that we're supposed to raise money and none of it's supposed to help us. It's supposed to go out and help other people. And you should have seen the faces of those people. They were like, huh? Like, what do you mean? Like, how are we going to do this? And I was like, I just. I want us to be a generous Community that blesses people in need, blesses other churches, blesses non-profits and People who are helping with sex trafficking, like let's just do it. And we raised 833, 8,300 and something dollars that day. That day. And we gave it all away. And that was the seed that went in the ground that I believe transformed our mindset around the thought that it is more blessing to give than it is to receive. And from that point on, keeping transparency, teaching, being honest and then being prepared. See, this is the big thing people don't understand is preparation is really the avenue that you're ready for the big things that are coming to come in your life. When this arena came open, it was because we had years of preparation being generous, giving to people, teaching, and then saving and then being ready. And then this $50 million arena came available. we were able to get it for like $10.5 million and pay it off in six months. That only, it is crazy. It's crazy faith. It's crazy, crazy. It doesn't make sense at all. The only reason it happened though is because we had practical preparation with principles of generosity. Yes. And I think those are two things that everybody can take.

And finally, we connect with my dear friend, relationship expert Matthew Hussey, who shares what factors we should to focus on in our life that will make you a more desirable partner. For all the people at your treats or the women who are watching or listening at home that just want to find their match, their partner, what's the first step they can take to start getting out of the weeds of like failure after failure and start seeing some progress to greater potential matches or a couple of things.

I Firstly, there's a guy called John K who wrote a book called Obliquity. And the whole idea of the book was obliquity is when you reach goals through indirect means. So if you take building a business, you're far more like, if your goal is to make money, instead of focusing on making money, focus on all the things that provide value to people. yeah, because the making money part will be the by-product right. If you focus on, I need to get rich, I need to get rich, I need to get rich. You're probably not going to do the things that are going to get you rich.

Right.

Because what makes you financially wealthy, the relationships you take time to build, that often for a long time, you don't ask for anything. You don't even care to. You're just building you, you know, the products that you create for no reason, then you think that they're great or that you think they have value or whatever the service that you provide people, it's just it's not what's the quickest way for me to make money. Most people like that don't get rich.

Right.

In a relationship, there's all these things that build a relationship that really have nothing to that don't feel like they have anything to do with a relationship. Like who would say knowing what you would do with the next 10 hours of your life if it was free is actually going to be a huge determinant of the health of your relationship. It's like one's over here and one's over here. Shouldn't we be talking about how to have better sex? Shouldn't we be talking about how to communicate well with my partner? No, we're talking about you being an independently attractive, purpose-driven, independent person who is attractive just to watch from afar because of the life you lead. That's gonna lead to a much better relationship. By the way, even that will lead to better sex.

Yeah.

Because your partner looks at you and is like, this person is more attractive. This is a person. This isn't just an extension of me.

Yeah.

This is a person. So it's the indirect things that contribute. And so let's now take that to the single place. I'm single. What's. What do I do next?

Mm-.

Understand and study, and this is a big part of what I do in my work. So I'd encourage people to come check that out. Study the things that contribute to getting you a relationship that often have nothing to do with getting a relationship. The things you do with your spare time. Do I, you know, do I do, if I want to learn yoga, do I do it on my own at home with a YouTube video? Learning yoga, by the way, on its own could be a good thing just because it makes you more interesting, you have more to talk about, you feel confident in yourself, all of that. But okay, now let me do a more sociable version of that. Let me go and do a class where I might actually have the chance of meeting other people. Maybe they're not men, maybe they're other single women, but other single women are useful too. Another indirect variable because you have more single friends or more fun friends, more charismatic friends, friends who come knocking at your door. or going, Hey, we're going out. Get out of your goddamn pajamas. We're going out. Right? That person is gonna be great for your love life.

Makes you more desirable, how much value.

And makes you leave the house.

Yeah.

Instead of staying in every weekend, makes you leave and go to places where people are. You know, the books you read, who would say the books you read have anything to do with your relationship? But they do on a date when you have to talk about.

Absolutely. Right?

So there's all these Factors. Now, the reason I'm saying that, because of course there are direct factors, but my programs in my company, which by the way, people could go to howtogetttheguy.com to go and find all of these, but the programs I have there are about very direct things like how to flirt, strategies, how to meet someone, how to do this, how to do that. But that's one piece of it, right? It's, I encourage people to do all those indirect things and then someone can't say, I'm just sick of going out. I'm. I'm.

I give.

I give up on what? On what?

Yeah.

Like someone said that to me in a seminar and said, I just feel like giving up. Tell me what.

On yourself. On life.

What are you giving up? I want to hear this.

Tell me.

What are you giving up on? Well, I don't.

Meeting people?

Meeting people? Would you not meet people? If someone said you can never find the love of your life, that's off the table. Would you really stop meeting people? Your need for a human interaction would disappear? I don't think so. You'd stop flirting with people? That's part of your character. Being flirtatious is a part of who we are at times. So why would we lose that? Being sexual? Would you really lose that? You're gonna stop being sexual just because the end result isn't coming? I don't buy it. stop doing hobbies, you'd stop getting out there. All the things that you have to get rid of to say, I'm done with relationships, are things that would absolutely erode your life, even if you take the relationship out of the equation.

Yeah.

So I think people have to. I understand. I know there is a terrific level of, like, dating burnout right now, and if you're out there, Feeling that right now, I urge you to think about this differently and to say, I don't have to constantly have it in my mind that I'm trying to meet someone. I'm trying to meet someone. I'm trying to meet someone. That game gets boring. And now when you go on a date and it doesn't go anywhere, you're a failure.

And you're exhausted.

Yeah. I'm done. See it as life. This isn't dating. It's life. It's meeting people. It's experiencing a great conversation, having a fun moment of interaction, of flirtation, doing things you want to do anyway, doing hobbies you want to do anyway, because they'll enrich your experience of life. All of those things are really important. You don't have to call it dating. Just go live.

It's kind of like the analogy you said about running a business. If you're focused on, I need the relationship, whereas like, I need to make a certain amount of money is getting the relationship as opposed to why don't I add value to the world and I'll attract the customers that will pay me and I'll make some money.

Because I need to make money focuses on things that make the short-term economics work. And those things are generally not good for a business. That's it. Same in love.

I want to ask you a couple final questions. this just came to me. I don't think I've ever asked anyone this, but since you're the love guy, I'm gonna go there. Typically, I would ask the three truths question, which is what are your three truths if it was the last day of your life? But I'm gonna ask you a different spin on this. Imagine it's the last day of your life and you've been in a committed, compatible, loving relationship with the woman of your your dreams for the last 30, 40, 50, whatever years. And you've been a part of this journey and experience where you've built this incredible castle with all of its dents and wears and tears and love and magic and unicorns and everything. And it's your last day. And you've got a... lights are gonna go off and you're not gonna be on this world anymore. And your partner has one more day to live. Hypothetical. You're 150 years old.

Your partner has one more day to live.

Your partner has one more day to live. Let's screw that. Your partner has a few more years to live. She's going to live a little longer than you. And you get to write three things: a love letter, to your partner.

Right.

About the three things you loved about her the most that brought you the most joy, the most incredible life from this relationship that you built together. What would you say or write to her are the three things you love the most about this woman that she would remember and go on for a few more years after words.

But that would be specific to a relationship, right? To a specific person?

-To that relationship, yeah. To that person and the relationship. Imagine the relationship is everything you could ever dream of. -Got it. -You created the relationship of your dreams. It's the golden standard for the world. To look at a relationship and say, Wow, they lived it. They did it.

They loved.

They went through it. They were vulnerable. It wasn't perfect. But man, this couple is the golden standard.

Man, okay.

What would you say are the three things? So I want you to go there because I believe you're going to create that in the relationship that you want to create. So what were the three things you would write a love letter to your wife on your last day about the three things you appreciated the most about the love you created together? that.

Maybe one would be your. You made me feel safe enough to be the best I could possibly be, you know? You, your love made me feel so secure, gave me such a platform to go and make an impact in the world on. That, that, you know, and I, don't get me wrong, I think we should have our internal security, but I felt so secure in the relationship that this gave me, this relationship gave me the energy. To go out there and do amazing things with that energy. So I made a bigger impact in the world because of the energy that your love gave me.

I'm getting chills already. This makes me emotional just thinking about it.

See if I have anywhere to go from there.

So safety, security.

That you You made me feel like I wasn't alone in the world. And I don't just mean because we had each other. You can feel very lonely in a relationship, especially if you don't feel seen. But you find someone who sees you, you know, who really gets you. and all of a sudden you don't feel so alone in the world because life is lonely. You can have tons of people around you, but there's a certain existential loneliness that many people feel in life that for moments or times evaporates when you feel a true connection with someone. and you see each other, you go, wow, that to me is transcendent. So your ability to see me made me feel less alone in the world. And I guess you were a role model for me. Through observing you and seeing the way you live and seeing the way you approach things, there were so many times where I noticed you were better than me. And that taught me how to be better. It taught me how to, I grew because I saw the way you were.

Wow.

And that showed me, no matter where I thought I was, being around you showed me how wonderful people can be. And that made me want to be more wonderful. I guess those would be three.

That's a beautiful love letter. What's the letter you would write to yourself? You're 200 years old. It's the last day still. And you write a letter to your 32-year-old self. 32 now?

31, 32 in a couple of weeks.

You write a letter to your 32-year-old self and say, one piece of advice looking back at what you'd say to yourself on how to become the best partner to create that magical relationship.

One thing I would say looking back at myself saying, here's a, here's a guide to being here's what you need.

To do to become that partner with that, with that other person. Here's what you need to let go of. Here's what you need to step into. Here's where your ego needs to take a check.

I think, how many things do I get?

Give yourself a few.

Let's do a couple. I think, I always loved just the idea of question everything. That thing that you take for granted that you're right about, question everything. It's just amazing to me the things I I look back on now and I no longer agree with what the 23 year old version of me thought, the 25 year old version of me thought. And I think understanding that, at least we're not very good at thinking about all the ways we might be wrong today. But we're really good at knowing the ways we were wrong before, right? And it's more, that's, you know, if you think of a lot of self-improvement people, right? Gurus, leaders, whatever people want to call themselves. They struggle, they're very good at telling stories of how they f*cked up. Ah, five years ago or ten years ago.

But now you're a guru.

You should have seen me then. But not many people are good at talking about today. And I think that that's a kind of blind spot we most of us have in life, people in general. And I think if we can apply that thing of, oh, yeah. God, I was so wrong about that five years ago. I was so. I couldn't be more wrong about that. And I know that now. We should apply that to the next five years, too.

Yeah.

You know, in the next 10 years and say, there's a lot I'm going to look back on five years from now and say, God, I did not know what I was talking about. That doesn't mean we should not trust ourselves on anything. You know, there's. I've heard it said, you know, strong opinions Loosely held, you know, there. It doesn't mean we shouldn't be passionate about what we think now, but it does mean we should leave room for questioning. And to that end, I think I would tell myself to be kinder to myself over the course of my life for things that I'd mistakes I'd made within relationships. I have definitely been the person and even today have to wrestle with making, doing something that I know, that wasn't the best reaction to that. I wish I'd have handled that differently. I wish I'd have said a different thing. I wish I'd have phrased that differently. I wish I didn't say that. And then really, really beating myself up for it.

Yeah.

You know, not letting it go. Even after you've finished the argument, even after you get to the other side.

Holding on to it, yeah.

Continuing to berate yourself for it. And the shame about that is that it lacks humanity. It makes us forget that we're human and that we don't get everything right. And the only way we're gonna get more right is by making certain mistakes and learning from them.

It's true.

And it also stops us from being effective because that energy that we're putting into berating ourselves is actually stopping us from doing the very things that would move everything forward from that mistake. It doesn't make relationships better. Mistakes actually make relationships better very often.

Because you learn or hopefully you'll learn.

You learn.

Those things, they really can transform mistakes can transform relationships. but not if you sit there consistently dwelling on them. They make relationships better if you can improve from them and move on and be the thing you want to be now. So I think I would tell myself to be kinder to myself for mistakes, to not obsess over things I should have said or done differently.

I hope you enjoyed this special episode about the keys to finding a a great relationship and how to master relationships in your life. I know how challenging relationships can be, and I hope this gave you a lot of wisdom, a lot of tools, a lot of inspiration to continue to guide you on your journey in this unbelievable, messy and amazing world at the same time of relationships. If you enjoyed this, please click the Subscribe button right now on Apple podcast or Spotify and stay up to date on the latest and greatest from the School of Greatness podcast, as well as leaving us a review and rating over on Apple Podcast and share this with a few friends, text them, post it on social media, and make sure to tag me Lewis Howes as well so we can stay up to date and connected over on social media. And I want to leave you with this quote from Maya Angelou who said, Love is that condition in the healing spirit so profound that it allows us to forgive. Whew, lots going on in this episode. I hope you enjoyed it and I want to remind you no one's told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.