718 Building Human Connection in a Digital World with Dan Schawbel

This is episode number 718 with New York Times bestselling author Dan Shafer Bell. Welcome to the school of greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Steve Jobs said that technology is nothing. What's important is that you have faith in people, that they're basically good and smart, and if you give them tools, they'll do wonderful things with them. Today we have an opportunity to learn how to use the digital tools to becoming more human and having deeper connection in a digital world, whether it be in the work environment or personal environment. we've got New York Times bestselling author, my friend Dan Schawbel in the house. He's a partner and research director at Future Workplace and he's the founder of both Millennial Branding and WorkplaceTrends.com Through his companies, he's conducted dozens of research studies and worked with major brands including American Express, GE, Microsoft, Virgin, IBM, Coca-Cola and Oracle. He's interviewed over 2,000 of the world's most successful people, including Warren Buffett, Arnold Schwarzenegger and many, many more. This is a guy that's probably had more interviews than I've done with people in a lot of different fields as well. He just usually publishes them in articles and not as much on audio like myself. He also hosts the Five Questions with Dan Schawbel. It's a podcast where he interviews a variety of world-class people. asking them five questions in less than 15 minutes. In addition, he's written countless articles. This guy is the king of press. He's written everywhere with Forbes, Fortune Times, and others that have combined, generated over 15 million views. And in this interview, we talk about how technology can bridge the gap in relationships instead of separating us like it seems to be doing today. The importance of sleep and how it can affect your work performance, whether you're working on a corporate job or you're working for yourself. The best tips to optimize your work environment, why having a good attitude at work can get you further than having great talent. Also, how to negotiate with your boss or employer to create a happier work environment. This and so many other things in the interview. I'm super pumped about it. Make sure to share this with your friends, lewishouse.com/7 One eight, and it's all about building human connection in a digital world.

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All right guys, get ready for this one. I'm super excited. My good friend Dan Chabal, again, he's done years and years of research on this. So he's got all the data backing this up and I hope it helps you in your work, in your life, in your relationships, and in your career. So without further ado, let me introduce to you my good friend, the one and only, Dan Chabal.

Dan Schawbel is in the house. Welcome, my man. You've got a book out called Back to Human, How Great Leaders Create Connection in the Age of Isolation. Make sure you guys check this out. And we've known each other for almost a decade, right?

Over a decade. Is it?

2008 or 2007?

Either 2007 or 2008. Every time I see you, I feel both young and old at the same time.

You still look the same.

I know, I still look the same. I still look the same as I did when I was five.

Really?

Yeah, if you see the baby pictures.

It'S like, oh my God. It's a good thing. It's a good thing you're staying young. We've had a fun relationship over a decade because we both got into this. You got into this earlier than me by probably like a couple of years, maybe a year or something. And I found your blog, Personal Branding Blog. And it was like the thing I needed to see in that moment because I was like, how do I get noticed in this space of a new journey that I'm on? I was in my sister's couch when I found it. was reading articles. I think maybe Chris Brogan linked to it or something like that.

And I remember I was reading Guy.

Kawasaki's blog because I think Seth Godin talked about Guy Kawasaki somewhere. And Guy Kawasaki said that he really liked Chris Brogan's blog at the time. And then I read Chris Brogan's blog and you were linked or mentioned somewhere, I think. And so I went down this rabbit hole and I loved what you created early on because you were talking about how do you build How do you create notice about who you are in your industry? And so I took on that early and I think learned branding and personal branding very early because of the spark that you gave me. So I appreciate your work and your message and your research. And you've always been really good at researching. And this book is about a lot of data, isn't it?

My whole life's been about a lot of data.

Yeah.

You're very analytical.

I'm all about asking questions.

Yes.

And they interviewed over 2,000 people and asked them at least five questions. each, plus 45 research studies surveying about 90,000 people in 20 countries. So really my life is about asking questions.

Why do you like that?

That's how we learn.

Why do you like data to that extent? Why can't you just ask a question and be happy with it?

When I was younger, both when we were in our early 20s, we could write so many different career articles about how to get a job, how to be fulfilled in your life. But There was so much ageism. You're young, what are you now?

Right.

So for me, data was my shield. It was my way of saying, hey, if you don't believe me, here are all these data points to prove what I'm saying. It's credibility. So in 2012, I had an incredible opportunity. I analyzed four million millennial Facebook profiles, and I did an entire media campaign around it that went viral. It was on, talked about on the Today Show, CNN, everywhere. And from there, I was like, oh my God, releasing my own proprietary data and analysis into the world, is gratifying. It's almost like-- It's people are referencing.

It, talking about it, look at what this study shares with you, right?

It's like if you're an archeologist finding the next dinosaur bone. So I was like discovering something new. So it was a genuine excitement. Plus it built my credibility and it allowed me to connect with other people who shared the same interests. So that campaign went well and then now it's 45 research studies and one of them is captured in this book. I partnered with Virgin Pulse, one of the 400 virgin brands, that Richard Branson owns.

That's it, only 400 he owns?

More now, actually. That's crazy, man. He's probably launching more companies. And I've actually interviewed him three times, brilliant guy, and he believes a lot of what is talked about in this book too. Interviewed over 2,000 managers, employees in 10 countries, and found that we are very disconnected. Whether you're on a subway, whether you're in the workplace, people in the workplace are having lunch alone, people in the subway, you feel like you're around so many people, but yet around no one at the same time because people are physically there yet not mentally or emotionally or spiritually. And so there's a huge disconnection because people are relying on technology too much and misusing it whereas they should be using technology as a bridge to human relationships, not a barrier. Technology can bring us here in this great podcast studio.

Technology brought us here 10 years ago. I saw your blog. We connected on probably Twitter or something back in the day, and then we met in person, right? I can't remember which event it was, but we met at many events in the social media marketing world or something.

But if we stayed on the technology, never met, we wouldn't be here and there wouldn't be a strong friendship.

Yes.

So what we lack in our society is community, lack human connection because we touch our cell phones every 20, every 15 minutes. and 2,600 times per day?

2,600 times.

Jay Shetty had the same reaction.

Well, he might be, he's on there a lot. He's on his phone a lot. I am too.

He's probably, that's understated.

He checks a lot too.

But not having your phone is a new vacation. We're overworked, we're burnt out. People are working longer hours than ever before without additional pay, and technology has made us on call 24/7. People answer business email outside of office hours, on vacation, wherever they are. It's always working. It's a new norm. It's a new norm, it's almost expected. Busy is no longer a differentiator. Busy is what we're all feeling or we think we're so busy. We think we have all of these friends, but yet it's an illusion. Technology has created the illusion of connection when in reality we have weaker contacts. Someone with an average of 100 Facebook friends only has three people they can rely on in a time of an emotional crisis. We think we have all of these Facebook friends, but Facebook has changed the definition of friendship. Whereas, who can you really rely on if you're mentally ill or you're in the hospital? Who are the three people who are going to call you? Those are your real friends. Those are people who are going to be with you for a long period of time. It's like what Jay said to me. He's like, I want to be friends with you forever. That hit home so hard. I posted on Instagram, got hundreds of comments because People, especially men, don't talk like that. You know that from writing the Mask of Masculinity and really focusing on men and emotions. People don't talk like that. If someone does say that, it really hits home because you're like, wow, what if I could just walk over to the people who I really want to be friends with a long period of time and say, hey, I want to be friends with you forever. That is so powerful. And just going back to the workplace, we spend so much time at work. The average work week in America is 47 hours a week. I'm kind of jealous of in Germany, they're fighting for a 28 hour work week.

No way. Yeah.

They have very strong labor unions there.

Really?

And in most parts of Europe, like Italy and France, it's a 35 hour week, five weeks guaranteed paid vacation. But even in France, they have the right to disconnect. So you cannot email an employee after work hours. You get fined. Wow.

Are they more productive or not as productive as U.S. culture?

They prioritize life. Just as much as work.

Productivity.

People spend a third of their life working. So if you hate the people you work with and don't extract meaning from the work that you actually do, you're gonna be disengaged and 85% of the global workforce is either disengaged or actively disengaged.

In the global.

In the global. Everyone, yeah.

What if you're doing working at a job you love?

If you work at a job you love, you still have to like the people you're around.

Yes.

Because if you have a poor manager who does not create a- Treats you poorly. Doesn't have a healthy work environment. you're gonna be disengaged, you're gonna be unhappy, and it's gonna affect your personal life. That's one of the things I studied is if you have a toxic work environment and are very disconnected and don't have a lot of friends at work, what impact will that make in your personal life? If you have a bad day at work, you're gonna go home and your wife or your friend is gonna say, How was work? And you're gonna have a bad attitude and be like, oh, I hated it. My manager made fun of me or took credit for the work I did today, and that is gonna hurt your personal relationships too. So that's why I focus so much on work in all of my books. I've been writing books since I was 22.

Because it's a third of our life.

Because it's a third of our life and because if you have a great work culture and because people are working so many hours, that has become so significant. And what I found is that people lack work friendships. People just go to work, they go through the motions and they come home.

Why don't they create friendships? If there's a hundred people in the company, why do we not build better relationships at work.

Because people feel isolated. Think of how-- At work? People at work, even in a physical office space, everyone at a co-working space-- They'll get lunch in their cubicle instead of asking their co-worker to lunch. Why? Because they have created this whole isolation themselves. It's their fault, right?

Why don't they just say, I'm gonna.

Disconnect for an hour and connect with someone? Because then they get an alert on their phone. People would much rather text and email than have a face-to-face conversation. But one face-to-face conversation is more successful than 34 emails back and forth. So instead of just emailing back and forth. Just getting on a call even is better. There's misunderstanding.

I can just walk two feet and say, Hey. It's so hard to convey clear instruction through text or meaning through text or email.

It's really challenging. I mean, think of the last time you felt anxious because you said something and you're like, you're worried if they're gonna understand what you mean.

Right.

Why are we isolated?

Because people would much rather take the convenience of using the technology instead of actually going and having a conversation with people. Because it's easier. Especially if you're an introvert is what we found. You're more likely to be isolated, maybe even out of choice. But wherever you are, even if you're in the office space, there was a recent study that came out that showed that if you have an open office space, you're less likely to establish human connections in the workplace. And if you're burned out, we have such a burnout culture. There was another study that came out that's really interesting. If you you don't get enough sleep, you have fewer friends and weaker relationships because you're in a bad mood. It takes more energy to connect. It takes more energy to connect. So we have to think about all of this. That's why the first chapter is focused on fulfillment. And I talk about building a healthy lifestyle. And you have to focus on your own fulfillment before you help your teammates focus on theirs.

You have to get your own stuff right.

Yeah. How do you create fulfillment yourself? You need to figure out where your strengths and passions collide, and then be an organization that supports that. An organization that has a leader that empathizes with you and really understands where you're coming from, creates a safe environment. So at Google, they have project Aristotle, and they were trying to find out what makes the highest performing teams. And they found that it's about creating a safe environment where people feel comfortable talking about emotions, what's going on outside of work, big projects, big mistakes that people are making, and sharing ideas and taking risks. Should we bring personal issues into the workspace?

-Yeah, and talk about it.

-It'S hard to just disconnect.

-You can't disconnect.

-You can't disconnect. -Compartmentalize. -So if you're a leader, you have.

To lead with empathy. I have a whole chapter, chapter nine.

On this because it's so important. -'Cause people are going through life challenges every day. -I don't know what's going through your head right now. I don't know what happened this morning. but you're feeling it and it could affect your work, so you might need a mental health day. And I have to be understanding of that. A third of Americans suffer from anxiety and depression. We have to account for this because it's affecting so many people. It's either it's affecting you or the people that you love or know. Everyone's affected. So we have to take a step back and understand that one person A is person than person B, and we have to take both their needs into account because If we don't, we're gonna have a toxic work culture. People are gonna be less engaged and they're gonna look for another job, which is gonna cost us more money and time and we're gonna be, it's gonna cost us our health too.

Yeah.

Should companies have therapists in-house? Yes.

Really? I think that's where we're going. Well, Claude Silver, who works for VaynerMedia, is the therapist for VaynerMedia. Really? She's the head of HR.

Oh really?

Yeah.

I think we're gonna see that more often. You're going into her office and just sharing stuff. Yeah. and opening up.

And think about it, the inner media has a lot of young employees that are suffering the most. Really? That are very isolated.

They don't know who to talk to. 23 to 27 year olds. What do you have, 800 employees now or something? Are they suffering or what?

Everyone has their own issues.

Yeah.

Everyone.

No one is in a perfect situation. It's a myth. And you know what? People look at us, they're like, oh, everything's all set for them. No, we're always, we're either creating our own challenges, right?

Yeah.

By choice.

Or getting to something. Yeah. external circumstances that we can't control are happening and we're reacting to them. And our lives, we're just iterating our lives as it's happening and reacting and molding. I never set out to do any of this. It's just naturally happened over time because I'm leaning into my strengths and figuring out what I'm good at and I keep doubling down and doubling down and doubling down and if something's not working.

I move to the next thing. So what do you think every work environment should have, whether you're an entrepreneur and you have a team of three or you're working at a space or you're a manager or whatever it may be at any organization, what are the key elements that it should have to optimize the experience? There's obviously going to be challenges even if it's optimized and you have the therapist and this and that, but what do you think will set you up to win the best?

First is using technology properly. I'll give you an example. It's having artificial intelligence to remove administrative work so that workers can focus more on spending time with their co-workers and doing work that has more impact on others, on the company and customers and the market. So eliminate that work and then use technology to get people to go to a meeting or to do something, but when they're physically there, have them take their phones and put it in the middle of the table. And I'm seeing this in the workplace.

As opposed to in a meeting and checking and constantly texting and Use technology.

To get people to a specific place, but once you're in that place, be physically and mentally present.

I like that.

Instead of still looking at that same phone that got you there. Because if you don't, then how are you supposed to brainstorm and even listen and pay attention to what people are saying if you're still using your phone? Yeah, I think technology is great because it can get you to a specific location, get everyone aligned and in sync, but it abusive and you become addicted if you're constantly using it during that meeting. You're not actually leveraging that meeting the way you should.

Okay, so that's number one is leverage technology better. Use it less when you're in person with other people, right?

Create a shared learning environment. That's number two.

What does that mean?

Which means that instead of hoarding information selfishly, share it with others. If you read something that's really interesting and applicable to your teammates, share it with them. Don't even think twice. Because the average relevancy of a learned skill is only five years. Business is moving so fast that in order to keep up with these changes and adapt to these changes, you have to share what you know and have co-workers who are going to do the same thing and reciprocate.

Otherwise, you're gonna have to do all the work yourself too, and you need to be able to teach other people how to do that work.

There's a myth that if you are an executive at a company, that you maintain power by holding on to information. Yet, as you know, and I know, as social media influencers, that the more we share, the more influence we get. The more people follow us and the more impact we can have. If we just held on to all of this content and never published it, we would have zero impact.

That's it.

And that wouldn't feel good.

No.

Okay, so that's number two, right? What else? Is there anything else?

Yes, I think that what we have to do in our society is embrace diversity. So I have a whole section about how we need people who are similar to us in terms of values and work ethic, but they need to look different. They need to challenge challenges. Because our greatest challenges are solved through arguments and arguments are created when their people are different. So people look at conflicts in a negative way. Conflicts are how we solve things. Nothing is peaceful, nothing is great all the time. So people will naturally argue. They'll have a different belief or point of view and those arguments are actually beneficial. They make us more creative and innovative.

Yeah, you talk about promoting diverse ideas and opening open collaboration.

Yes, we can't be closed off anymore. The leaders of the past were autocratic leaders. They were all about command and control.

They made decisions.

Following policies and procedures. The managers of today and the future are those that are formative, meaning that they encourage the best in others and have a strong vision that others follow. You can't get excited about someone who has no vision. You talk about this all the time. If you have a good vision though, you want a collaborative environment so people feel like they're included.

Yeah.

People want to belong to something that's bigger than them.

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Something we do is everyone on the team goes through emotional intelligence training and goes through many months of it. And I feel like when we continue to personally develop and grow as humans on a team, then we can start to grow as a team. When we work individually, then the whole team benefits because we're able to process emotions better, we're able to express better, we're able to not hold on to things that hold us back. And I think that's what helps see things to grow. So it's something I like doing. What else do you think the workplace should have or the work environment should have? You say hire for personality. What does that mean?

Yeah, hire for personality, train for skill. Hire people who have a great attitude because they're gonna perform much better. Attitude is everything.

It's hard to teach people how to have a good attitude if they have a negative one all the time.

So they'll have a positive attitude if they're around people who are positive.

Right.

And if they're doing work where they're playing to their strengths and where they know that they're having an impact. Most organizations fail because they're not good at communicating to their employees that and connecting with the work they do and the impact that that actually makes on the team, on the leader, on the CEO, on customers, on partners, on the world, potentially, right? And so drawing those connections to get people meeting is so important because if you're just coming to work and doing administrative work, you're not going to have a job anyways in the future. It's going to be automated because, you know, upwards of 40 to 50% of jobs will be automated in the next decade or so.

How will they be automated? Through AI, you say?

Through artificial intelligence. So the idea, like in my industry in HR, you know, if you think that you're going to just sit around and answer employee questions about their benefits, you're out of luck because artificial intelligence and chatbots it's already happening. Intel has an artificial intelligent chat bot, an AI chat bot for HR that's answering all those questions. So you're not needed anymore. So the smart people now focus on big data. That was always my big bet. But also focus on problem solving and social skills. Sales skills are only going to become more important. A robot is not going to close a $4 million deal.

Right.

Yet, at least.

Someone who understands human connection, human psychology, what makes people tick, what makes people think, what people desire.

And you know what? It hasn't changed. It hasn't changed. It's Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. After safety and security, food and shelter, you need love and friendships. Otherwise, you'll never be self-actualized. So there's a great story in my book about a girl who was living in North Carolina, and she had to get relocated to New York. But the cost of living in New York, as we both know, is very expensive.

Four times as much, at least.

Exactly. So her manager took her in as if she was his child, supported her so that she could make it work. So instead of going to work every day and being like, oh my God, how I can't afford to live here and being always stressed out about our financial situation, she had that covered because her manager empathized and supported her so she could focus on doing the job. The job is a top performer and now she's an executive of one of the biggest companies in the world. So she stayed with the company for over 10 years as someone our age, which is very rare because of that support.

But if our basic needs are saying aren't met and someone is anxious all the time, they're not gonna be able to deliver great results.

Impossible.

Yeah.

And so that's why I'm trying to emphasize friendship at work because you know what? What we found in this study is that people lack friendships globally. 10% of people have zero friends at work, and half of the workforce has fewer than five.

How many people were in this study?

Over 2,000.

2,000 people globally.

Yep. UK, Australia, India, China, Brazil.

10% of the people have what?

10% of the people have zero friends at work.

No friends.

Zero friends.

You have just, like, acquaintances or work.

Germany actually worst. They have the least amount of friends. Why? The most amount of friends? Brazil. They are just the most outgoing people and they're most likely to be extroverted too. So they are social. If you've been to Brazil, they are up till seven in the morning partying and having fun. So they've got something going on there that's right. There's other issues, but socially they've nailed that. America, overworked, burned out, rocking friendships. It's really unhealthy. Yeah. Because you're just always working. So it's great to be a banker and make $150,000 a year outside of school.

You have no friends.

But you have no time too because you're being burned out every single day, seven days a week.

You've studied the workplace for over a decade. You've talked to thousands of leaders and executives and CEOs, managers, HR, everyone. What do you think is the ideal work, I guess, work week hours wise? how long should somebody be working for? Should there be breaks? Should there be, you know, how much vacation?

Like 100 questions in one, Louis.

If you could have the ideal like work year, based on every country that you've studied and what you know about the workplace, how many hours a week would it be? You know, vacation time, like all of it.

I'm actually studying this right now, but there's a firm in New Zealand that tested out a four-day work week and it was successful. People were productive, healthy.

One firm.

Just one firm.

In New Zealand.

Yeah, so we're blowing that up and do a bigger study that comes out.

Labor Day, which is a three-day weekend every week.

Yeah, so basically people, when asked how many days of, with salary consistent, how many days a week would you work, about 75% said they'd work less than five days and still perform very high. Same salary, same salary, reduced days.

One day less a week.

Yeah, because they're wasting at least an hour each day on administrative tasks that they shouldn't be doing. It's a waste. They're going to be automated anyways.

It might make you, yeah, you might be smarter in the way you have systems in place. If you knew you had one day less, you'd be smarter with your time, you'd get different softwares, you'd develop things. The thing is, once you're productive with four days, you can say, hey, let's.

Add an extra day and maybe we'd grow even more. Isn't that the challenge? Well, that's especially if you're an entrepreneur.

Right?

Because I never want to work four days a week. I never want to work six days a week.

You like it and you see that it's a mission. It's more of a mission than money, you know what I mean? So it's more of like, as opposed.

To driving the bottom line, it's like how do we impact the most? People need flexibility. That's one of the consistencies across my 10 years of research is after pay, flexibility is number one.

Pay is number one always, right?

Number one across all age groups. Sixty-five year old, doesn't matter. What country is number one?

More money.

But it's about fair pay. Because especially people our age in the workforce now, we're more likely to talk about our salaries to the people we work with, the people we work with. So if somebody has worked for 10.

Years, millennials are talking to everyone about this.

If you work the same amount of years as your colleague in the same position and they're getting $10,000 more than you because they're a man or they spoke up or something, that's not okay. And you're gonna end up leaving. and flexibility, healthcare, none of that's going to matter if you're not being paid fairly.

So, they pay.

So, fair pay is the way. Fair pay is so important. Once you get past that, then it goes flexibility. Time flexibility or. Flexible schedule. So, coming in at 10 o'clock, leaving at 8 o'clock, because maybe everyone's in a different situation.

You have kids, you don't have kids, you're more. Not having to be there at 9.

To 5 every single day, but being able to have some flexibility.

When needed. Correct.

And working from home. But there's a dark side to working from home.

Everyone talks about less collaboration in person, it's more technology, right?

Everyone talks about the positives of working from home, which are freedom and flexibility and the reduced commuting cost. But the less structure about the dark side, which is loneliness and isolation.

It's more loneliness, more isolation, and sometimes people aren't as they don't take care of themselves as much, right? You're just in your pajamas.

Less accountability.

Yeah, less accountability. You're just like, well, I can get up later and just get to the computer at nine. And I'm not going through my routine. I'm not, you know, being as proactive in my health. Not all the time, but this can happen.

A third of the workforce globally works remote always or sometimes. Yet, two-thirds are disengaged.

Two-thirds of the one-third. are disengaged or they're just doing other things.

There's no accountability, right?

No accountability. That's the challenge. Unless you have like 24/7 video camera on them and you're seeing like exactly what they're looking on their computer, but you can't even do that if you're.

Working in a workspace.

Can't. But people are disengaged from work too, whether it'll be on social media or.

They'Re doing other things, personal stuff all the time, right? Yeah, the research shows that you should be working in focus for 45 minutes and then take a 15-minute break.

Right?

Because it's really hard to focus. You can't do hours a day. No, you can't.

So you need these breaks. You need to get up, walk around, have a conversation.

Engage. And that's what we're trying to do with this book. This book is giving people permission to establish more human connections and not rely as much on technology. And it's a reminder every time you're using technology in your head you see the book cover and you're like, wow, I should be a little bit more human. And you can be human with technology too. Sure. And, but I think technology is a path or can be a path to more human connection.

Yeah.

Right. It can lead you there. In the early part of my career, I used the technology to establish a great network.

Audience, sales channels.

Yeah. But it's the same reason why you have a live event, because you have to actually meet these people in person.

You have to.

You have to get to know them. And you learn so much about your customers, your friends, everyone through the emotions that you have and the things that you share when you're vulnerable.

Absolutely. What else is the ideal workspace? So money, flexibility and freedom, although there's.

A lot of learning and development. There's after healthcare benefits.

So healthcare benefits is next.

Compensation, flexibility, healthcare benefits and training and development.

So having more training to grow and develop.

The younger you are, the more you're looking for a mentor in training and development. As you get older, you just don't, you don't care as much and you're kind of checked out. because you think you might know everything or you're at a position where you're getting paid enough. Or you feel like you put in.

Your time and now you deserve a.

Little bit of entitlement. Yet, I think it's hard entitlement on both sides.

Yeah, there is. Like 22 year old.

This ageism on both sides too, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, it's really hard to get a job if you're 65.

Yeah.

But it's also when you're young, it's hard to get paid a lot because people see you as younger.

You're inexperienced.

Some people see you as inexperienced. and experience does matter for sure. I mean, you're better at interviewing now because you've had so much time speaking.

With so many people.

As an entrepreneur or as a CEO.

Or whatever, you're looking for results. Someone who can deliver results efficiently. That's what you look for. I don't care if someone's 23, I don't care what color, I don't care what gender, it doesn't matter to me. I want to know you're gonna be positive, you're gonna be fun to hang out with, if we're gonna be spending time you believe in the mission that we're here to do, which is impact people and help people be better, and you're gonna get results efficiently. Yes, you're gonna make mistakes. Yes, there's a learning curve, but if you can do those things, I'm pretty happy.

And you need all of those things. Everything else you can learn. You can learn everything else. That's it. That's it. It's hard to find those people. Let's not make it seem like it's easy to find good people who believe in what you're doing and who will get along with everyone and put their best foot forward every single day.

Why is it so hard to find good people?

To hire because I think people want different things from work and are in different situations. And not everyone believes what you believe. And you have to be okay with that.

And there's shiny objects and there's.

But I think the key is the more you put yourself out there, the more you will attract the right people because you're not going to follow someone and read their content every single day if you don't believe what they believe. Right? unless you're a bully. We've had enough of those.

Yeah, of course. Okay, so health benefits, flexibility, fair pay, learning and development. What else? Is there anything else? If you got that, that's a pretty good.

That's really good.

If you got some free food here and there, that's another perk. That's like a Google.

So people don't care about those perks.

Really?

Free food? Yeah. So I interviewed the former head of people operations. at Google and he said that people work at Google because they want to learn and be with the smartest people in the world. That's why, because of learning and development. And again, Google's changing the world. They can be part of the change that they see in the world through working at Google or Facebook or Amazon or Apple. The companies that are changing and have control over society, they want to be part of that rather than go against it. Right. And so I think it's about being a leader that inspires, that has empathy, and that creates a culture that allows people to bring their full human to work.

Yeah.

Because they're going to anyways and they need support.

For an entrepreneur that has a whole team that is remote, you never get together in person.

That's an issue.

It's three to ten people or 20 people, but it's all remote. 'Cause I have some friends who have fully remote teams that are actually doing pretty well financially, but they haven't grown past it's hard to grow past a certain level. Is it possible to have a thriving business with a whole team remote?

Yes. I mean, your friends have it. I have friends who do. But I think only 20% of companies have offsites or social events for their team. Yet in the research we found that that's the number one way to have a healthier work environment and establish more human connections in the workplace. So if you avoid-- Doing work with clients, doing offsites. Yeah, so even if it's once a.

Year-- Retreats for a weekend.

At least once a year do so. I'll tell you what, when we did-- you- gotta show people you appreciate them to have a whole chapter in recognition.

Really.

You know, and people don't want to wait a year to get feedback or an annual performance review. They want feedback along the way. Consistently, right? Consistently, every day. And it's another excuse to connect with someone. So learning, sharing what you know, that's another excuse to engage someone. You know what I mean? So like these habits are only good for the work environment because the more you do it, the more your employees see that you're doing it, so they start to adopt that behavior. And then you create a whole environment where people are sharing what they know. You know, the motto is, you know, I, and whenever I learn, I share. And they're always recognizing people so people feel good about being there. You want to obviously recognize someone in an authentic way, right? You don't want to come off as disingenuous. or blow it out of proportion, but I think recognizing people and telling them first what they're doing great and then saying you could improve something else, that's how you give feedback. If all you do is criticize, people are going to be turned off by that. So you have to learn there's a subtle art of giving feedback so that people feel good about it, yet they see it as a learning opportunity.

As someone who's studying this constantly, you have your own company, your own team, what are you lacking to implement that you know you can do better at?

Yeah, I think that is something that we should be doing better at is an offsite. The good thing is we do at least four in-person events a year.

So you all come together.

So we all come together, not just the team, but all the customers to come together. So we are seeing them because if we didn't have interactions with these big Fortune 500 companies every year, they would not be part of our network anymore. because they require, especially in HR, they require a lot of human contact. They don't want to just hear about something that they can Google. They want to actually interface with people who are like them. It's a community. Just like you and what you've created as community, you can put out hundreds of podcasts and a lot of content every day on Instagram and Facebook and have your own show, but it's really about engaging people where they already are and making them feel like they're part of something bigger. When I was going to your shows, you could just tell that people felt like they were a part of something. And you were a leader or the group organizer, but they were like, I listen to the show, you listen to the show, we have something in common. We both care about self-development and gratitude and everything else you stand for with greatness. I think that's so powerful is you're creating a community of people who have shared interests around something that's positive in the world.

So more off-site connection, more retreat style stuff.

At least have video conferencing where you can actually see the person. But none of this technology is ever gonna replace face-to-face interactions. Nothing.

It's impossible. But video is key. I do a lot of FaceTime just with people in general. You know, I'm always on FaceTime and that's way better than just a phone.

Call or text, I think. You can connect eye to eye. You're eliminating misunderstanding. Yes. And you're encouraging connection.

Absolutely.

And it's like every day, every morning, I call my parents. Really?

Yeah.

I'm an only child with the Jewish parents. I'm calling them every day. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Of course.

I can't rely on a brother or sister to call them and for me.

To take a break on it. Yeah, I'm the youngest of four so.

I can get away with that. But I think it's a good habit to create, right? A habit where you're constantly engaging with the people who you care most about and you're telling people how you feel about them, even if if you have a fear of being judged.

What should employees or people working request more of their company if they're not getting something? And how should they approach it so it's not attacking or defensive or entitled coming, you know what I mean?

Yeah, that's the problem is a lot of people feel they're entitled to more money. We should get more money.

We need this and we need this.

Asking for too much, especially early in your career. It's a big mistake. I'll tell you what I did early in my career when my first job. Everyone in my department, in the marketing department at a Fortune 100 company, everyone had to create a marketing plan. And I was like a year into this job. What I did was I walked to each one of them and I said, I'm going to do your marketing plan for you. I did everyone's marketing plan or at least the first draft of it, which is a significant amount of work. But I learned how to do a marketing plan when I was younger and I saw a need to be able to establish relationships with everyone on the team and get getting them to support future projects that I wanted to take on. And it was the best job security you could have because I've created enormous value.

Right.

And so I did it all for everyone. And so it's making that huge impact quickly, whether you're networking with someone or whether you're trying to excel in the workplace at a young age, it's seeing an opportunity where you can add value and just quadrupling down, going all in, doing as much as you can for the people you work with, because then that's how you win them over. And then throughout the rest of your career, you have people who you can rely on.

Absolutely. And it's hard to get rid of someone who is always showing up and always proactive and always thinking how can I be more efficient and create better results and go above and beyond. It's hard to say, I don't want that person around. You're always going to be acknowledging and appreciating that person more than people that aren't doing it.

Exactly. No, it's about consistency. If you're showing up every single day, even five, seven days a week, people notice that. People love the work ethic. no matter what anyone says or how they criticize people we know, these people work so hard. And we can relate because we've been through this long, long journey. I mean, the blog I started when I was 22 years old, over 6,000 articles now. It's been read by over 10 million people. It's big, but it only did that because every day, 12 blog posts per week, I was managing the magazine, Personal Branding Magazine. A man in a hundred different contributors, two editors. I did the marketing, the promotion, the distribution, everything on top of having a full-time job. But I knew in my heart that all of that work would eventually pay off.

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And I think when I was in my 20s, I really had a lot to prove to myself. I needed some sort of validation. I needed the validation because I never got that growing up.

Really?

You were the only child.

I was bullied so much growing up, really. In elementary school, I got in trouble every single day because I suffered from anxiety. So I didn't know I had anxiety and I couldn't channel it, so I was always in trouble. And I also, I was treated very poorly by teachers. Like in elementary school, I was put in a closet by my third-grade teacher.

No way.

Yeah, my friends would make fun of me every day. So it was tough. I didn't really say much when I was in middle school and even high school because I knew that I would be almost punished every time I spoke. And in middle school I was shoved in a locker. So that actually does happen. Yeah, you see it on TV, but it actually happens.

I was too tall for that. I was too tall to fit in the locker. So they did other things to me. they hurt my heart in other ways.

Totally. But what I realized is some of the things that might have made me weak and, you know, enable people to bully me when I was younger became my greatest strengths. When I was, you know, really young, I would come home and literally cry into my pillow because I never fit in. And I even said, I never fit in. I'll never fit in. But maybe I don't fit in because I'm special, and someday I'll do something great.

So you knew that.

I knew it back when I was a little kid.

You said maybe it'll pay off.

Maybe all this will pay off.

Really?

But I had to be so patient. I was a little kid. I knew it. I knew all this. I didn't know that we would be here doing a podcast or I'd have three books by now.

You knew something would happen.

I just knew it because I'm like, maybe I don't fit in for a reason. So if I stopped the self-talk at saying, I'll never fit in, that's defeating. and that would have led to enormous amounts of depression and who knows wherever else I would have faced from that. But I turned that around and said, well, maybe it's because I'm gonna do something great in my life. And to me, that is the most inspiring thing to me is the fact that I said that when I was a little kid and I knew all along and I'm still patient. I say it's like the subtle art of being patient with persistence. I will wait years to talk to someone and that's fine because I'm doing this for the rest of my life. It's easy to make short-term decisions when you know what you want to do. And the only way to figure out what you want to do is to do as many things as possible, as young as possible, so you can figure out what works for you.

That's what it is.

And then not being afraid to iterate along the way and evolve.

It takes six months at a time or six weeks at a time to go all in on a subject or something you're curious about or a skill set and get as far as you can. And if you like it, keep going or start something new and just keep starting something new to where you have a skill set. At some point, you're gonna have a lot of skills and you're gonna be able to use it for one big thing or multiple big things and it's gonna pay off.

Reflecting back, I always said be the best at what you do for a specific audience. That was like the framework behind building a personal brand when I was younger. Then I realized as I got older, what's made me unique is two things. One, I'm really good at multiple things when combined give me a competitive advantage. That to me is pretty powerful. The other thing is I am a marketer in HR. So I have a skill set that is becoming increasingly valuable in a different profession. So take something that you're really good at, and put that work and that skill set into something different. Whether you're really good at something in, you know, and working in California and you go to Hong Kong and you just leverage all those skills to blow up in Hong Kong, like just take what you're doing into another market and that has huge room for growth if you can do that.

I love this man. Make sure you guys get the book back to human, Dan Schawbel, how great leaders create connection in the age of isolation. If you're a CEO or an entrepreneur that's got a team that's building, you're going to want to check this out. Even if you're in the workspace, if you're an employee, should you check this out so you understand what you can bring to the CEO or to your manager?

Absolutely. And there's tips for everyone, whether you're an employee or a leader, how to work with leaders, how to manage remote workers. Basically, I have nothing more to add to that book. It's everything I've got. I interviewed 100 young leaders from 100 of the best companies for the book. I did an assessment called the Work Connectivity Index with the professor that measures the strength of your work relationships from low connectivity to high connectivity so you get a score. And then the- so people can take the test.

Yeah.

To hold your whole company?

Yep, the whole company can take it for free.

Wow. Where do they get that? WorkConnectivityIndex.com WorkConnectivityIndex.com I love it, man.

It's got everything. It's everything I ever wanted to do for a book and I was, I finally after The second book had enough credibility and connections that I was able to pull it off. And each book helps people get to the next phase of their career. Me 2.0 was College to First Job. Promote Yourself was First Job to Management. This is a leadership book. And each book actually is more human. Me 2.0 is at the beginning of the webinar. Me 2.0, all about digital. And then Promote Yourself had some chapters on digital, a little bit more on soft skills because we found out that that's the most important thing managers are looking for when they promote. And then this one is clearly saying, hey, we need to get back to human, be really smarter with how we build our relationships.

As technology continues to grow, it's only going to create more isolation unless we create the structure to be more human.

And what's so fascinating, we did a study of 25,000 people and we found that the technology is actually forcing our humanity outside of us, right? So like the more you're using technology, the more you have a need to pick up the phone because you still have the need to have friendships and have connection.

Intimacy.

That'll never go away.

Yeah.

Wow. This is the three truths question. If this was the last day for you and you could only share three lessons with the world, what were the three things that you would say?

One is be patient but with persistence. so work really hard. Go for it, but be okay if it doesn't happen right away. I always tell so many of my friends this because everyone wants things immediately. Instant gratification. Right. Number two is experimentation. Figure out what works, what doesn't work, and lean more into what's working and quadruple down. Yeah. Because then you'll be able to maximize that opportunity. And then if there's something else you want to do, you'll have a better chance of doing it because you've already the framework, the foundation, the connections, and the skill set to leverage to do the next thing. We're always a work in progress. We're always learning and being challenged. And you need to rise to the occasion. I think that people need to be more curious, ask a lot of questions. That's how I've gotten to where I am in my career. I just keep asking and asking and asking. And the more you ask, the more you try and solve problems for yourself, the more you're gonna be able to help others. if you can't focus on your own fulfillment and become happy and fulfilled in what you're trying to do, you're not going to be able to be effective with others. You're not going to have that attitude and excitement. You're not going to understand what it takes to figure it out if you don't figure it out for yourself. So really get your shit right and then help others as much as you can and be generous. So like me, I'm like you, I'm like, How can I help people? I'm always thinking about that, but it's not like walk into random strangers being like, I'm going to introduce you to Richard Branson or Reid Hoffman or someone very substantial. I'm very smart about who I talk to, who I introduce to each other. I'm deliberate and thoughtful in everything. I'll spend like a week before I give you feedback on a show or something that you're producing because I want it to be very thoughtful because you'll gain so much more from that rather than me in the moment saying that was great or it could be improved.

Yeah.

And people appreciate that. People appreciate the effort that you put into anything, whether it's a relationship, friendship, work, everything. And that's why you have to be picky with who you surround yourself with and the work you do, because you'll only put that effort in if you're in with those people working on those projects in the right environment.

Yeah. Great, man. Well, I want to acknowledge you, my man, for consistently showing up for me. It's been a decade of friendship and you have such a level of work ethic and you always are thinking about how you can add value to me and other people. I just want to acknowledge you for the level of detail you have with your research, the attention to detail towards your writing, the impact you make on other people, and you're constantly showing up for others. And that value is very much appreciated. So I appreciate you for that. And of course, man, guys, make sure.

You get the book back to human.

Go to danchabell.com, you can get it on Amazon, you can get it in bookstores, Dan Chabell on Instagram, he's starting to blow up so make sure to follow him there. And you can learn more everything else at danchabell.com, S-H-A-W. Oh, the podcast, 5 Questions with Dan Chabell. 5 Questions with Dan Chabell, which I'm.

Going to be on as well. Check it out if you want to hear what my five answers are.

Definition of greatness.

What's your definition? It's going to be different than four years ago when I was on last lean into who you already are instead of living up to the expectations of others.

Yeah, shalow. Appreciate you, man.

There you have it, my friends. I hope you enjoyed this one with my buddy Dan Shabell. He's a guy who spends countless hours, weeks, months and years researching certain topics to find the exact political data to back what he shares and what he talks about. He spends a lot of time writing his work. So this book, make sure to check it out right now. Get a copy of the book. It's all at the show notes@lewisowens.com/718 you8 can follow Dan Shaw Bell over on Instagram and Twitter and all those good places. Again, we'll have it all linked up on the show notes. Make sure to tag me @lewisowens and @danshawbell over Instagram what you enjoyed most about this episode so we can stay connected to you as well. And share with your friends. Spread the message of greatness by sharing this with your friends. Spread the message of continual learning, continual development in your friends' lives so that we can all grow together. So let them know what you think about this. Share with your friends. And My friends, we've got a big interviews coming up every Monday and Wednesday, and on Fridays we've got Five Minute Fridays, the inspiration to finish your week strong. But man, some big interviews got coming up. I'm so pumped. We've got LeAnn Rimes, we've got Shauna Niequist, we've got Darren Brown, we've got some incredible people coming up soon who've been blowing my mind, literally, and I can't wait for you to hear them and watch them. If you're not subscribed on YouTube, go to youtube.com/lewis howes and subscribe because we have videos coming out every single week as well that are going to uplift you and inspire you throughout your day.

And throughout your life.

And as Steve Jobs said, technology is nothing. What's important is that you have faith in people, that they're basically good and smart. And if you give them tools, they'll do wonderful things with them. I love you all so very much. It means the world to me that you continue to show up every single day and listen to this podcast and apply what you learn here into your life because that's what's most important. What you learn, you must apply and start inspiring those around you. As always, you know what time it is, my friends. It's time to go out there and do something great.

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