727 Business Growth and Raising Money with Matt Higgins

This is episode number 727 with Matt Higgins. Welcome to the school of greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former Pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now, let the class begin. Warren Buffett said, in the business world, the rear view mirror is always clearer than the windshield. And Winston Churchill said, success is not final, failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts. Today we have my good friend Matt Higgins, who I actually interviewed about eight years ago. Back in the day when I had a whole nother site called Sports Networker, for those listeners who have been following me for that long, you might remember Sports Networker as one of my first ventures back in the day. And Matt is a very successful businessman and the co-founder and CEO of RSE Ventures, a private investment firm that focuses on sports and entertainment, media and marketing, food and lifestyle, and technology. And in 2012, he co-founded RSE with Stephen Ross, who is the founder of related companies and the owner of the Miami Dolphins. He's a legend, right? And Higgins also serves as the executive for the Dolphins, and he had been a high level executive with the New York Jets. Before that, he's appeared as a guest investor on the 10th season of the incredible series that I love called Shark Tank. If you guys watch Shark Tank, then you probably saw Matt this season. And in this interview, we talk about investing in businesses and how Matt chooses the best companies to invest in. The power of pattern recognition over conventional wisdom when it comes to business, how lonely the journey is when starting a business from scratch, how to scale a business, We dive into Matt's journey through poverty and why he supports others in similar situations. It gets very emotional for him. At one point, he shares some stories about his mom that he's never shared before. And we talk about the importance of celebrating everything in your life and taking the time to be present. So many powerful nuggets in this story, whether you're an entrepreneur, you're just starting out with a side hustle, you've got a massive business and you're looking to invest money, you're looking to scale your company, you're looking to sell a business, it's got it all. in there for you in this one. Make sure to share it with your friends. Also connect with Matt Higgins over on Instagram and Twitter. Alright, I'm excited about this one. My good friend, he's on the interview to reveal and share with you all about business strategies and all the things he's done to overcome in his life to get to where he is. Without further ado, let me introduce to you the one, the only Matt Higgins. Welcome back everyone to the School of.

Greatness podcast, we've got the legendary Matt Higgins in the house.

My man.

How you doing? Good to see you. Good to connect. We connected like 10 years ago, but I interviewed you eight years ago in 2009 or 2010, and you were showing me the video a couple weeks ago.

I hate that video because I'm a good 50 pounds heavier.

You look lean, man.

Right, but that's the only time I had been 50 pounds heavier. There's multiple before and afters. So when I saw that photo, I was slightly horrified. You look great right now.

Thank you, thank you. that was fun. That was back when you were the, the head executive at the Jets, when you were looking to kind of build that brand up. And I had interviewed you about sports business and what it was like for your career and all these different things you'd overcome then. But in the last eight years, you've taken a shift. So can you share with us now what you're a part of and your main business now? Yeah.

I mean, I'm simply put, I'm a business builder. I always had the desire to be an entrepreneur, and it was burrowed deep in my brain at two o'clock in the morning, and I had all these ideas that I wanted the freedom to execute and like Everybody, there's a moment in time where you just say, if I don't make this transition right now, I'm never gonna do it. I had that great office at the New York Jets.

It was a great office.

Yeah. And you were like the VP or something?

I was like EVP. EVP.

Yes. Big deal. Because I had E in front of it. So I was running the business of the team. I had the coolest job.

Big office on the 50-yard line. The field. On the field.

The video is like the field behind me. Right. A little button I could push and the windows would drop and they'd come out. Yeah, it was Batman type stuff. But I used to always say I had everyone's dream job, but mine. And I loved the job, but I knew that I had one more chapter. And if you stay too long, you get comfortable. And I made the transition to partner up with Steve Ross to create RSE Ventures. So my day job is just backing companies and entrepreneurs who are looking to go to the next level and they're missing something, simply put. Yeah, a lot of times it's capital, but it's not just capital. It's conviction.

Strategy, it's belief.

Yeah, it's belief in themselves, it's belief in that I can do it. It's maybe being de-risked. even psychologically or financially.

If I've got someone backing me, then I can take the risks I really want.

Exactly. I created a PR firm with my partner, Jesse Darris, but he was pretty young at the time, and I knew he had what it would take to be successful. That was the deal. We partnered up together, and he's got one of the best PR firms, I believe, in the country four years later. If you look at all the deals that I'm doing, the common narrative is there's always a founder. who's pursuing something transformative. He or she is special, and they're missing something to go the distance. And that's why a lot of our deals have a real estate component. My partner is a massive real estate developer. Really? Yeah.

In terms of what?

If it's a physical store. Well, look at restaurants. I'm doing a lot of fast casual deals in the last couple of years. My partner is Steve Ross is the largest developer in the country. Really? Yep. If you look at a fast casual concept that has maybe 10 units or 20 units, and everyone's got their favorite emerging concept, Bluestone Lane, Aussie Coffee House, right? They live or die on real estate strategy in those early days. You make some bad real estate decisions. It's very hard to overcome it because you've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars.

To build out the unit in the wrong location.

And then you're stuck for five-year lease or something like that. It's a five-year lease. No one will give you money because now they judge your concept because you screwed up your real estate strategy. And you say, well, but I'm in the wrong spot. So that's a strategic advantage. That's smart. Yeah, so- Most people don't even think about that. Right, exactly. So if you look at my portfolio, Sports and entertainment, media marketing, food and lifestyle, technology. There's always a connecting dots component to it. How do I take one aspect of a portfolio to help another aspect? And real estate's just kind of one piece of it. But yeah, so I tend to play far afield, lots of different investments, but always as somebody special behind it.

That's cool. And so how did you start this fund in the first place? Did Steve come to you and say, I want to start a fund. Did you come to him and pitch him this idea of like, Hey, I want to start building businesses.

Well, we met over the last 10 years. He owns the Miami Dolphins and I had eight years at the Jets overseeing the business. I had learned the business in all these different jobs, so I understood it. And for me, it always made sense if you have a sports team to try to put money to work around it. Like you see a lot of exposure to interesting ideas. You have an ability to make sure those ideas get front and center and potentially reach millions of people. It just made sense to try to connect the dots. And Steve's entire career has been about connecting the dots. He's one of the probably one of the biggest under the radar entrepreneurs in the world, not just a developer, much more than that. And so we were, we had a similar outlook on life, and we basically formed a partnership that I would help oversee the Miami Dolphins on the business side. You don't want to put me in charge of anything related to football performance. The business side. The business side, that I understand. Hired an amazing CEO, his name's Tom Garfinkel, one of the best in the country. And then we would work together to find deals and incubate technology. And a lot of times this is nonsense around the narrative and the PowerPoint in those early days. Nothing ends up resembling the PowerPoint, right? So I could tell you the PowerPoint, but it doesn't look like it now. Right. What it really is is we see a great idea, we have an advantage, we can help in a disproportionate way, we can acquire a significant enough stake so that we answer the call at two o'clock in the morning. So if I don't own enough, I'm not going to bother. And we back the company, right? And it's not venture in that, I'm not just putting money to work. I work it as if it's my own. We roll up our sleeves and we build those businesses.

How big is the fund? Is that public knowledge or is it--.

No, but I mean, it's in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Yeah. And I think what makes us different is we incubate businesses from scratch too.

Before they launch.

Yeah, before they launch. So sometimes, I hear this from founders a lot, right? If you go to a private equity shop or a venture firm, you might be dealing with somebody who business is just theoretical. And not to begrudge that, but everything was learned at a business school. Life is very different. Not implemented. You're not implemented, right? So there's something important about going through the pain and suffering about building a business from scratch. And I've done it multiple times with partners, and so has Steve. So when you come to us, at the same time as you're struggling with all the pain, employees leaving, or you're waited too long to terminate somebody, or it turns out that the product you thought was a business ended up being a hobby, I've made all those mistakes. That's very different when you're working with us because of that background. And the fact that I think when people bring a problem to me, I see it as my problem. I'm not sitting there staring at an Excel sheet and wondering why you missed your numbers. I'm working with you to fix it.

What are the characteristics of, let's say, the four or five different individuals you've invested in over the last five years that really made them stand out for you to be like, I have to invest in this person, whether it's this or the next thing. they've got it, whether it's the idea or it's their passion or what's the thing that they have that makes you want to say yes. I love that.

For me, the first thing I look for is tales of authenticity, little signals that are emitted, right? Whether or not, because to me, if you don't have a degree of authenticity, especially with your self dialogue, when the moment comes that you need to pivot, like we all do when we create a business, you're not going to make the pivot. You're either going to be too insecure to acknowledge that you were wrong in the first place. And if you don't have the humility to do it, you won't make the move, right? So I look for the confidence, a blend of confidence and humility. So when the moment comes, I know they're gonna pivot. It's almost like- It's like they stay stuck in their own way. Yeah, 'cause it's like downside protection. 'Cause I don't care who you are, everyone has to, maybe it's a minor pivot, usually it's a bigger one, right? That things don't work out the way you thought. It turns out you're not as great of a leader and that you need to have a COO underneath you, which is a pretty common fact pattern, right? If you don't have confidence and humility, you're going to be embarrassed by that need and you're going to wait too long and your business will topple over. So it's more, it's like, you know, when you see it, I'm looking for those tells of authenticity because that tells me that over time you're going to be willing to do that. Intellect is important, intelligence is important, right? Like, are you intellectually curious? Are you going to be constantly looking to figure out what's wrong with my business and how do I make it better? I'd say those are the biggest ones. And then is it a scalable idea? One of the mistakes I've made constantly in my early years doing this, especially in the last six years, is I'll see an opportunity. It looks like a business. I won't ask myself the hard questions about how big can it really be. And it turns out it was just a feature. So I got enamored with my own creativity and my novelty. And there's a big difference between whether you can do something and whether you should do something.

You can do lots of things.

You can do lots of things. And you're also so incredibly clever. And then you could become enamored with your own brilliance. And you could waste three years of your life. And it was like, that was just feature of somebody else's business.

Yeah, or it's the wrong, you know, I could sell toothbrushes if I wanted to, 'cause I've got an audience.

Right.

It doesn't mean you should. I should, right?

It doesn't mean I should, I could also come out with my own rap.

Album, but it doesn't mean I should. Right, can you, by the way?

Do you think you could? No. I was actually, maybe autotune, like, Are you secretly Vanilla Ice? Yeah, exactly. I don't remember it. No, but that's right. That's how people tend to not want to ask themselves that question. 'Cause it's a scary question to answer, 'cause you're so excited. Right, you wake up in the middle of the night and say, oh, this is amazing. I can invent a new product. But you never asked yourself whether you should. And so I learned the hard way with a couple of bad ideas that I pursued. And I'd like to not admit which ones they are, but that was an important lesson. So now, like on Shark Tank and anything else I do, I say, Is this potentially a scalable business? Can this be worth more than $100 million? Is this worth my time?

Is that what you look for? If it's worth more than-- Now I do.

Could it be $100 million? Maybe in the early days, the standard was lower, right? Everyone graduates. And so I'm graduating each year. Now it's-- Could this be north of $100 million? Could I own enough of a stake so that it's worth my time? 'Cause we're all human. Human behavior is natural. You could be enthusiastic in those early days when you're trying to win a deal. And then you get bored. And so you're being deceitful when you're like, oh, I'm gonna work on this. I'll be your strategic partner. And I own 2%. That's nonsense. So I need to own enough of a stake that I feel like a co-founder so that I'm gonna put the.

Time and energy in. 'Cause I know myself, right? And I know that I got other.

Things competing for my time. How many deals do you guys invest.

In a year or in the last few years?

Are you allowed to share that? I'm allowed to share it. I'd have to calculate it.

Is it 10 a year?

Is it three a year? I think lately we are going deeper into the deals we have. My partner is very disciplined about this. When you have something that's great and you know why it's great or why it could be great, don't be a bottom feeder. Don't sell early. And don't be a grasshopper. He always says that. Don't jump from one thing to another. So I've adopted that logic. So I tend to go deeper and do more deals in the companies we have. Nice. Gary Vaynerchuk, we're partners in VaynerMedia. Yeah. that was my first deal, yeah.

So tell that story.

Yes, I'll tell you that story. So I was at the Jets, trying to figure my life out.

2009, 2009.

2009, the Jets are located in New Jersey, and Gary is a massive fan. The whole world knows this, right? That his ultimate destination is to buy the New York Jets, right? Which I believe he probably will pull off. My team was convinced that he would buy a suite, which I was not convinced that he's going to buy a suite at all. No matter how big of a fan. No matter how big, right. But sometimes you have to support your sales team. So they're like, just go see him at his wine library in Springfield, New Jersey. New Jersey, yeah. Yes, we met at a bagel shop. I was like, what am I doing? But okay. So I sat down with him and I always break that conversation into chapters, right? So the first 10 minutes was this guy Gary Hoodie. The hoodie and his quasi weird Caesar haircut and all frenetic about how like, I'm gonna crush it and the internet's gonna explode. So he had the authenticity and the confidence. He did, right. So that's the bagel, right? There was, he was definitely authentic. But is he out of his mind? That was the first, that was the first, because I don't back out of one's mind.

Right.

Right, so then, but the second 10 minutes, right? If you listen to Gary, even circa 2009, whether you start to hear these prognostications about how the world is going to play out, and you could start to discern an inside voice that made sense and resonated with me. So I tend to like to also look past the packaging, right? Because I came in a certain packaging. So I don't judge the packaging. I want to trust my intuition and what is the person really saying? So circa 2009, Gary was making these predictions about how the world will play out in the second 10 minutes. I was like, huh. I was like, he's probably being underestimated because I think he's right. So for example, one of his early days, he said, social media is going to continue to take off and democratize the creation of content. Content's not going to be in the hands of the New York Times or anybody else. It's going to be in everybody's hands. People, yeah. In people's hands. Corporations, though, these massive battleship carriers are not going to be able to turn in time to figure out how to create that content or manage it because it'll be everywhere. So I'm going to-- that's true. Right. So he says, I'm going to create the first social media digital firm specifically to help those companies create content and navigate that. And they'll never be able-- because then my next question is, but eventually they'll figure out and hire their own in-house team. He's like, no, they won't. It'll move too fast. Wow. They'll need him.

They'll always need somebody to help them navigate.

And he says, so me and my brother AJ, we're still in college.

Yeah. We're gonna do some t-shirt thing.

Yeah, do it, right, right, right. We're gonna create this firm. So, and then, and a few other predictions, and that's when this seed of an idea started forming. And if I could partner with Gary, wouldn't it be great to have this machine of social media digital content creation at your disposal while you're pursuing whatever you're pursuing? And also, if I could back him, we could put real money to work on some of the ideas he had seen. He's early in his career. He's in Facebook. He wasn't online. I was like, well, why aren't you writing larger checks? Because he wasn't being backed because he was this frenetic guy sitting in a bagel store and did not have the packaging at that time. So that was my first big deal. At the moment, basically gave him four Jets tickets so that he could take a player at the time who probably wouldn't have the profile and didn't necessarily deserve to have the profile based on the position. And can you make him Twitter famous? And I remember we had a dinner in Summit, New Jersey, with Kerry Rhodes, a safety, and Gary went to work doing what Gary does, elevating his profile and showing me what he could do. Wow.

That was my first-- and I saw.

It happen in like weeks probably. That was, I mean, so I credit Gary a lot. That was probably my first deal in business in this new iteration or current chapter of my life because it told me a few things. It doesn't matter what anybody says. I don't need anybody to agree. And at the time, nobody else did agree. about what Gary would be. I know it, right? So my pattern recognition skills tell me that I'm right. And it doesn't matter if the whole world is assembled on the other side of you. In fact, that's where the opportunities are, that you have what it takes. Because we all need reps, right? I always say that. We all need some reps. I don't care how confident you are or how- you- need practice. You need practice and you need validation. And it doesn't mean you don't even need external validation. You need validation that you're not being delusional. So Gary, for many different reasons, but being right about Gary was an important way for me to get reps. And then I think I've run that play a few times.

You ran the same play over and over. But then you made some other mistakes.

From other, you know. I did, but I haven't been really wrong on people. You know where I've been wrong? I've been wrong when, one, I thought it was a feature and I got enamored with my creativity, and two, when I thought that the power of an idea would eclipse the downsides of the person. So I would say, this idea is so big. That this person, yeah, it doesn't matter that this person's meek, you know, is not willing to put the time in. is not, you know, all the things that make somebody not ready to be an entrepreneur or has got a really bad personality and no one's going to follow them because they have no empathy.

I've made the biggest mistakes when I've overlooked that fact.

People is the most important thing first. Yeah, it's unfortunate because it's a damn cliche and I hate to have to repeat it, but it's the jockey.

And because it's a cliche, people want to say, ah, it's just, you know, nonsense. If the product is average, but the person is incredible, Can there be a massive business off of an average product to start?

Yeah, I love that. Some of my favorite deals are backing an average product that I actually don't even believe in.

Really?

But I love the person and it's a long-term play because I know that they will iterate through that mediocre product and will end up somewhere great. Do you have examples? Winners? Well, then I'm telling the person I think their product is mediocre, but in my head, there's a couple and I don't do that a ton, because then the problem is you're playing a very long game. Sure, sure, sure. And not only that, you have to then go through the dark days when the person has to iterate. But just 'cause somebody is pursuing what is a small idea and maybe you see their destiny, like I've had that. I stand, sit across from a man or woman and an entrepreneur and say, this is not what you're meant to be working on. But I believe in you. I believe in you, and I don't need to talk you out of your dream 'cause this is a good place to get some reps, right? And I don't know why the hell you're pursuing this, but I know in four or five years when you begin to understand just how special you are, you will morph into what you're meant to be. And I like those opportunities. That's good.

'Cause that's exciting.

So play the long game. Play the long game. Like even Gary, I feel like, wow, you're so right and you have such a chip on your shoulder that's unnecessary. 'Cause you really are right. You don't need to prove it over and over again. When you iterate through that tendency, that you have an even bigger destiny. We joke about that all the time. Like you're still trying to prove everybody. Like I think you did. I think it worked out, you know, but we all have our things. That's his thing. I love that. I love when I sit across from somebody and say, wow, you don't know how special you really are and how.

Special you're gonna be. How long was it until Gary started VaynerMedia and then when you invested? Was it right at the beginning or.

Was it after they had reached a certain amount? No, it was probably, I'd say, two years later.

Two and a half years.

They had like 40 employees or something. Yeah, exactly. Something relatively small. And that's what I love about my partner, Steve. He's done everything, right? He's in his 70s. and certainly doesn't need to work, but loves building businesses. It didn't take him any time to convince him of what I saw. And that's where we connect. He can see the opportunity across the chasm and make a move.

Do you guys ever disagree on a person or a product, or you're like all in on something and he's like, nah, or does he just trust you?

I think he trusts me a lot. We might disagree, 'cause he might think I'm thinking small, and I disagree vehemently. He's usually right, which which frustrates me. But yeah, I mean- Are you thinking small?

Yeah, well that's the thing.

When you were the transformational figure, everything looked relatively small from where he said-.

He's got billions, I'm assuming.

Billions, but also just he's been through everything and the projects he does, it's been the largest development project in US history. He's building a whole city, you know, off to the side. Where is this? While in New York, yeah, he's building, yeah, 15 million square feet of commercial, residential, retail, yeah, largest project in history of the United States. Wow. That's like one thing. So my only point, he will look at some of the things I've done and say, you- know, 50 million north or even more, even, and he'll be in for anything. It doesn't matter how small the company is, it's my approach. Am I thinking small in my approach? Am I focusing too much on downside mitigation as opposed to how great could this be? And it's great when you have people in your life like that who pull you forward. Steve has pulled me forward places that I was like, I don't want to go there yet. I need more time here. You- don't feel ready yet.

Yeah, I don't feel ready yet. What would you say to anyone who's been playing When they maybe think they're playing big, they're listening or they're watching right now, but you know that we're all capable for more. What advice would you have for people playing small?

I would say take that boulder that you're chained to instead of behind you and throw it in front of you. Let it pull you forward. Wow. Like, like do not playing small is the best way to ensure that you won't ever achieve big dreams, right? That you have to, don't get comfortable where you're staying right now. Get uncomfortable right away and press ahead because you probably know that you inside yourself that you have more to give this world. and it's going to haunt you one day when you look back. So I do think there's something to be said for spending a little time, right? Look around, assess yourself, but quickly move off the dime and press ahead. Wow. In fact, my biggest regrets in business so far have been the times I've played small. Really? Yeah, it's true. Like, I don't regret the misses, and because I understand why I did them, I don't understand why I played small. Right? There's no great excuse for playing small in retrospect.

When you mean playing small, is that like I made a small investment in this where I could have gone bigger?

Exactly. I think mostly playing small for me looks like, I know I'm right. I'm nervous about optics. I'm nervous about being judged for being wrong just in case, or I'm insecure, whatever it is.

So we only put 100K in as.

Opposed to a million. Exactly. Or something's teetering and I know I'm right and I don't double down. Wow. Like that is now I haven't made a lot of those. But those are the ones that I regret. And this is Steve's, my partner's point. When you have a winner and you know it, those are hard to come by. Go all in, right? And the spray and pray is nonsense. Spray and pray to me is the playground of people who want to hedge all day long and are afraid to be wrong. I'd rather invest in index funds.

Well, as I'm saying, right, right.

You'll do better anyway. Yeah, exactly. Get your annualized yield and you'll be fine. And so I think when you have a winner in your hands, it doesn't matter if anybody else knows, you got to press it.

And that's, those are my biggest regrets. Now what happens when you press it and you go all in big, and then you lose? Yeah, those. And you lose all your money and.

All your time and energy.

How do you look at those deals? Those are tough. And you felt like, well, I thought.

I was right and I knew it, but the market or this, the person, whatever. Those are painful, but what I say is when you dissect it and you put the, you know, the patient on the table and you sort of do your postmortem, you will quickly find out the thing you missed. And the thing you missed is usually related to some misalignment in your character or your personality, right? Like there was some, you were worried about the downside. You were worried about acknowledging that they needed to pivot. You didn't confront the CEO because you didn't want to offend them. Or like, I have not had a situation like that where I was not able to dissect what I could see. Where you missed it. Where I missed it. That's never, that's what's great about life. We're all playing the same multi, you know, patterns. Maybe there are like seven. allegorical patterns playing out. There aren't new ones being created. So if you spend enough time paying attention, you could dissect it. So I'd much rather have gone all in and be wrong than have never gone all in at all on the winners.

Because you don't get many winners. Don't.

Right?

Big winners. You might get small winners. Like, yeah, we made some money there that did well and we exited, but the big ones, there's like, how many.

Of those every few years are the big winners? Well, for one, you have to see.

So many deals to spot a winner. So many. Even like an Uber, it's like, okay, even if you invested early, You still haven't gotten all your money out yet, right?

You still have to wait a long time. You have to wait and things change. I mean, look at Birchbox, right? Birchbox, a $1.5 billion company. I don't know what it is now. What is it now? I don't even know. I don't want to say it because we were an investor in it. Scared technology. That was in our fund with Gary, but I just remember that one in particular because Gary would always be good at, he'd always say, Ah, you love paper. It doesn't matter. Like it had raised it a billion dollars and I think it's, I don't even know what it is now, but it definitely did not work out. Wow. But that's why you have to look at hundreds of deals to spot what you think could be a winner. And then when you have a winner, there are so many intervening events that can make it lose that you have to put your time and intended energy to execute on it. That when you actually have it and you see it and you can feel it, you have to go all in.

And there's very few where that don't take many, many years to grow and make a lot of money. There's very few that of those winners that exit in general. You know, you've got, that's gonna take a lot of your time and energy.

So you've gotta be patient with the winners too.

That's the other thing, everything in life takes five years, right? Has there been any investment where you're.

Like, oh, two years later, we just made like 40 million bucks? No, I mean, maybe I'm looking at the wrong things. Although I tend to like brick and mortar elements to it. I like the hard stuff because although the journey is more difficult, when you're there, harder to dislodge you. I like the restaurant space with fast casual restaurants just because there's so much hard work that goes into it. A lot of hard work. Like right now, we're, Bluestone Lane is a big investment of ours. I think there's an opportunity to displace Starbucks. Now what I'm saying is conventional wisdom, but maybe a year ago it wasn't, that people are accustomed to paying for a premium experience in a coffee environment and paying $4 for their drink. But when you have more units than McDonald's, that doesn't feel premium or boutique. It's a premium. Right. So I think there is a great opportunity to create the next-- not necessarily Starbucks per se, but the scaled premium boutique experience. And so, Bluestone is a company that we made a significant investment in. Where is that? It's about 35 units now. We'll double them this year. We're in New York, we're in LA, we're opening up different markets all over.

You're in LA?

Yeah. Check it out. Is there one in West Hollywood? Yeah, yeah, West Hollywood, they're all-- Bluestone. Yeah, Bluestone. I don't think I've seen that. I'm willing to go on record right now saying this will have been one of the best investments I ever made. Wow. And again, going back to pattern recognition, The fact that there's an opportunity in the coffee space was obvious if you were paying close attention about a year ago. But conventional wisdom-- Because everyone's opening coffee shops. Right, and what conventional wisdom was, it's saturated. It's coffee saturated. And it's like, no, it's actually to have an exquisite experience is not saturated at all. Remember how you felt back in the early days of Starbucks? And again, I'm not hating on them. I love Starbucks.

I love what they've obviously done. But you remember that feeling? So you know that that feeling hasn't evaporated. You still want it. But now everyone's going to the boutique stuff because they want to get away from like the McDonald's of coffee. Exactly. They want to have a more artesian experience.

Right. So Starbucks, let's talk about the space between. There are 27,000. Blue bottles, the this. Yeah, there's the blue bottle, there's La Colombe, there's Blue Stone. There's room for a scaled boutique concept. Doesn't have to be 27,000 units, which is going to be a 500. It could be 500,000. It could be whatever, whatever, whatever it's meant to be. is what it could be.

And stay at a standard at that scale.

Exactly. And then when the moment comes, then maybe it's exited or- It sells to Starbucks or whatever. So that, I mean, I tend to.

Be agnostic about that too.

That's the other thing about our philosophy. I tend not to worry about exits. How do you know when to sell? Well, we tend to take 20, 30% positions. The founders tend to control the exit. Our philosophy is that the exit should be an inevitable byproduct of your success and We don't have an opinion on it. I'd rather stay with somebody for 20 years who's got a great idea and a great business. Because you're getting returns too, right? Getting returns, but also back to the conversation I always have with my partner. It's hard to find a winner. And when you have something that works, don't be a grasshopper. Stay with it. So one of the problems with traditional PE is they have to have IRR thresholds and they need to exit within five private equity, sorry, that they have to exit. Thank you. Thank you. I do that all the time. I did that with Shark Tank too. Can you not be so cerebral? Yeah, yeah. Like this is TV. So private equity shops is that you have to have an exit naturally, which makes total sense. But because this is a private firm, we tend to let it ride. And I love that because then I'm not looking like, when are we going to exit? We need to exit. That's not very gratifying. I'd rather take on the world and just keep building and building and building and building. So now I might be sitting here in 20 years and never exited.

Never sold anything and then, you know. But you still get returns every year, right?

You get paid out.

Dividend.

Yeah, of course. But a lot of what we're doing is growth.

We don't go back into it.

Well, we don't play. I like to play at the inflection point where an idea has been validated through some type of traction, which is different in every place. So drone racing, I was the first investor in drone racing. Someone would argue there's no traction. Well, the YouTube videos in Australia in a park of people playing Tron with drones circa 2015 was a form of early traction. 'cause organically people were playing with drones, right? In a restaurant, fast casual space, it's 20 units that are performing well or 10 units, right? So I look for early traction, but then we go all in and we're patient. So those early days, it's not like you're getting a quick hit. None of our stuff is like a flip. Wow.

And how did you get started in the first place? 'Cause didn't you not graduate high school and then you got GED to go to college?

Didn't you do that? Yeah.

Did you grow up in New York?

Go back to the beginning.

Yeah, did you grow up in New York?

I did, I grew up in Bayside, Queens. And my mother was a single mother taking care of our, I have three brothers, rotten brothers. We were all miserable kids growing up on the streets of Queens. And she was always my inspiration from an early age. She grew up really difficult circumstances, didn't even have a high school diploma. So when I was around 11 years old, she went and got a GED. And then I watched her try to crawl and fight her way out of poverty. I mean, we were desperately poor. We used to take the Q27 bus to Flushing and go on the weekends and get a box of food from the church pantries, which was always-- yeah. It told me a lot about life in its own ways. I'd feel demeaned or embarrassed you're a little kid. And then wonder, it's interesting that people do this. And if they weren't doing this, what would be happening to my family right now?

So there was just painting a picture.

So embarrassed and grateful at the same time. Embarrassed and grateful. mostly embarrassed as a kid, looking back, gratitude more. But that was the nature of our struggles. And at one point, maybe I was 13 or 14, I was working. I'd been already working at McDonald's. I already had two jobs. I used to scrape the gum off the chairs at McDonald's. Tell your kids not to put gum on the bottom chair. Because I was that kid who had to clean it. It's the worst. Early on, probably one of the most important moments of my life in my career happened around 14, 15 years old. when I said, I have two choices. This situation is gonna continue to get desperate. My mother had a ton of health problems. Just I say she had the trials of Job. And I could see her deteriorating and that we weren't gonna make it out of here through happenstance or luck. Luck. Right. And no one's gonna save you, which as a kid I was very bitter and resentful about.

The government should be saving us.

Yeah, why isn't anybody stepping in?

Where's my dad? Where's this?

Yeah, right. Like no one had ever come to my house as a kid as a kid because I was embarrassed. We were so, you know, poor. Yeah, I was sleeping on a mattress on the floor. And I was like, why nobody's gonna save me? Like nobody's gonna come here? I used to have these conversations with my mother, like, we have to do something. And then I had this idea. She dropped out of high school, right? And not deliberately, but got her GED. And I thought, if I could get a GED, drop out of high school early, I can get to college early. I can get a job that pays commencement with a college kid. and I'm going to accelerate and run as fast as humanly possible to get us out of this situation. So I made that choice when I was 14.

Got out of high school.

But you're not allowed. So, but again, I wanted to be practical with my time, because even then I was like, what's the highest and best use of Elizabeth's waist? So I got left back every year, just sit in the same homeroom with the, you know, truant kids and just, you know, beepers going off and all the things that you could imagine back in the day. And then got left back two years in a row and just waited until I turned 16. And then I made the hardest decision I've ever made because it sounds good on paper when you drop the play, but I'm like, am I really gonna do this? I remember my last day of high school at Cardozo, you have to return your textbooks to every class, which, and you walk in front of the room, it's really embarrassing, right? Like kids can be mean to each other, but dropping out of high school is like a pretty big move. You're like the loser.

I'm the biggest loser, right?

Gary and I talk about, like dropping out 20 years now, you'd be like an entrepreneur. you're Mark Zuckerberg or whatever. Back then, not cool. Walking in front of my science teacher at the time said, you know, like Higgins, what a waste. And he's like, I'll see you at McDonald's. And I remember I said, if you see it, it's because I own it. That was my hubris, right? And I walk out, ah, you know, Higgins. Then I was like, oh man, he's probably right. So I remember sitting down on the steps of Cardozo, opened up a Marlboro, smoked a butt, and thought, I may have just made the most radical, terrible decision of my life. But for me, I know this is the right choice. Like that inside voice is telling me that if I don't do something to change my circumstances, we're not gonna get out of here. And while it seems unconventional to everybody else, they don't know what I'm dealing with behind closed doors, which is something I always tell people. Be careful who you listen to. If they don't have visibility into your house, they don't know what's going on. So I dropped out and walked home and thought, okay, now you have to execute your plan. And over the next- It's a 16 year old. It's a 16 year old. We're working at a deli on Woodhaven Boulevard overnight, just carry my little butterfly knife because I was worried about getting robbed or whatever. And then I went to work. I went to this GED program and thought, okay, well this doesn't make sense for me. I can do better. I'm not going to spend three months doing this. I went to Springfield Gardens High School, took my GED on standby, I took my SAT the following week, maybe two weeks later, I can't remember the timing, and then got admitted to Queens College a couple weeks later. Passed it all. Passed it all, yeah. And what's interesting back then, the GED, if you could score high enough, you can go to anywhere, like Harvard and-- Really? Yeah, maybe Harvard's an exaggeration, but not by much.

Big school.

Like you could convert your score. That is now not possible. So I enrolled in-- I started college when I was 16 years old. Wow. And then one of the best moments in my life, so now is the juxtaposition, right? I'm sitting on the steps smoking and that cigarette thinking like, okay. And I'm dying on the inside, by the way. I'm literally dying. I'm embarrassed. I'm suffering. I'm like, I don't want to be taking care of my parent, who wants to as a kid, and making these kind of big adult decisions. You want to be taken care of. I want to be taken care of. But by the time I came, the best part is I came back to my high school prom, saw all the teachers, and I was present at the debate team at college. Like, how do you like them apples? So I always say I learned everything I ever needed to know about life during that time frame and about business, right?

That, that, what did you learn about business?

Well, that idea is insane. You're gonna, you're actually gonna torpedo everything and you're gonna drop out of high school, right? Everyone was telling me that that decision makes no sense. So what I learned is I have the pattern recognition skills to even architect my own life. When you're starting from scratch, it's gonna be a very lonely journey. Don't expect others to see what you see because if they did, your idea wouldn't exist. They'd be doing it. They'd be doing it, right? So, they actually change the rules. You can't go get your GED and start, and I'm always proud of that. Like, call it the Matt rule. There you go. You can't, you know, in some places, at least in New York, don't be careful with the advice you take because they don't have a window into it. And if the idea was easily recognizable or implementable, it wouldn't be there for you to take advantage of, right? And then just like, do what you need to do. Like, do what you need to do to change your circumstances and what works for you. And just because it doesn't work for somebody else, doesn't mean anything. And going back to reps, that gave me some incredible reps. Like when I go through dark moments and I've had them various times or when I've had to transcend, I reach back to that moment. I'm like, all right, it doesn't get any worse than that. You know, sleeping on a mattress and, you know, dropping out and getting embarrassed. So to finish the thesis, I spent the next 10 years of my life dramatically racing as fast as possible to get out of the situation I was in. I became a reporter when I was 17. won a bunch of journalism awards. I started working for the mayor of New York when I was 20. Wow. And then, and-- Press secretary, right? Yeah, I became press secretary when I was 26. But it started playing out like, okay, so that one catalyst accelerated everything. Now, of course, you'll be judged forever. You know, you dropped out of high school. I have to clean that up. I went to law school at night, Fordham Law. Really? Yeah, I figured, what's the best way to make sure you clean that up, right? Because, you know, whether we like it or not or it's fair, you're gonna be judged forever. And that's not a fair indication of who I am. And I make sure I don't judge anybody else because you don't know the full story. But going to law school, then I graduate, I'm like, don't really want to be a lawyer. That was the end of that. That was what, four years for you?

Yeah, four years at night.

Never took the bar exam. Really? Unless you graduate because you were like.

This isn't what I want to do.

It's not what I want to do. Why spend six months taking a test? Well, that's the other thing people do too. This whole notion of sunk cost is a fallacy. It's one of the cognitive biases, right? There's no such thing as a sunk cost, and that you can make up for it by doubling down in the same area. I got the degree. I had the imprimatur of having gone to law school, but I had no desire to really be a practicing lawyer. But most people would say, well, I'm kind of committed, right? I just spent four years of my life. And I thought, it'll look good on the wall. So I raised, you know, the part that did not work out, another important lesson is during those years, 2016 to 26, my mother just would get progressively worse and back to nobody's going to come in and sort of save you despite me racing and racing and racing.

Your mother got worse.

She got worse. And I was, but yet I kept getting these bigger and bigger jobs. You know, by the time I was 26, I was making well over $100,000 a year, which is hard to do, you know, like coming from zero. Everything kind of collided around June of It's hard for me to tell the story. So she was getting worse and then I got this job as press secretary. And I was debating, how am I going to do that? How am I going to go to law school? How am I going to be press secretary to the mayor of New York at 26 years old? And she had said, please don't go to work. Don't go in today. And I said, we have no money in the bank account. I'm about to become press secretary to the mayor of New York. The youngest person ever hold that job. It's well over $100,000. I'll finally be able to take care of everything. I have to go, you know? So I went to work that day and she called me a couple hours later in the office and said, you know, apparently when you call, you know, an ambulance, like, you know, you have to go. And just to put it in context, we would go to the emergency room, you know, all the time. People who don't, people when you don't have insurance, you go to the ER. Like, even when you have a head cold or you do whatever, you know, you basically sit there and that becomes your doctor. Yeah, and you tend to say you have a stiff neck, so they think it's meningitis and you can get in faster. Like, there was all these little hacks. But we would always spend time in the ER, and then nothing would ever happen. Like there's no magic cure. So all throughout law school at that time, I would spend time at the ER, 2:00 in the morning, read my law books the whole bit. So when she called me that day, I was like, oh, this is just another time. But then by the time I got there, she had died. No way. So for me, it was-- and she.

Asked me not to go in that day.

Yeah. Dang. Yeah. But it's tough. Dang.

But she called you on the way or what did she say? She was going to the emergency room or?

Well, this is pre-cell phones back in like Miami Vice big clunky things. I didn't have one. No, it was more at the office and I was actually kind of relieved like, oh, if an ambulance is coming, maybe we'll have some serious intervention. Yeah, and I remember I went back to the house just to get some stuff figuring this is not a crisis and the doors were open. and there was one ambulance empty outside, and I was like, okay, this is different. But I still didn't think anything of it. I grabbed a bunch of items and then went to Long Island Jewish and she had died. And so I was like, Really? I'm at the finish line. Quick, huh? Yeah. But also, for me, I'm press secretary of the Maroneyer.

I finally have done it. And you can now take care of.

Her and take care of things, but now it's-- and now it's, yeah, so I'm still not sure the moral of that story, but-- yeah, so that was tough. And so, you know, that's when everything kind of merged. And I always look back and say, you know, could we have gotten more help? But society's not really set up to intervene to that extent, especially when you're very poor and your problems are kind of chronic. You know, she had obesity. She had all these different things that weren't, it's not like cancer, not that, you know, cancer can, you can intervene magically. but she had a lot of chronic issues. And when you don't have resources. So for me, I don't know what the moral of that story is, but what it did imprint in my mind that the highest and best use of my time, energy, and money when I accumulate it is to ameliorate suffering. As that little boy, that 16-year-old and 20, you know, whatever, if somebody had intervened, it could have changed the course of her life and my life, right? So my big takeaway from that is, one, it doesn't always end well, and you have to take responsibility for your life. Be an agent in your own rescue. But when I accumulate resources, money, power, that's the best use of it. And so I like telling the story, even though it's hard for me. I still can't tell this story. I don't talk about this particular day much, but that's what gets me excited about. When I think about my business and the track record and hopefully what I will do and what I'll invest in and the resources that I'll unlock, I get excited about that.

Being able to help other people.

Yeah, not in some hero way. that's grandiose. It's more, it's such a big impact. Like, so one thing I do is I now write scholarships for single mothers through Queens College. That's cool. Yeah, because I now can go back in time and say, well, that makes, you know, she would open the letter and, you know, look, we got a scholarship, right? So for me, I get most excited about when I look about everything I'm doing, if I stay on the same trajectory, that I will be able to.

Have a massive impact on people.

What's the biggest-- Thanks for making it so heavy. Like, I came here thinking you were gonna talk about fun stuff and now you're making me almost cry on camera.

What's the biggest lesson your mom taught you?

Be kind, right? 'Cause so many people just, you know, be kind. Yeah.

Was she kind?

It's just more like the impact of being kind.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I can't talk. You can't make me talk about it. You have to change the topic. Well, and from a practical standpoint too, like just what could happen if you're kind, you know, like the difference you can make.

Yeah, even if it's not with your resources, but with just like your generosity.

Your kind heart, your- and also don't judge too. She was very heavy. So we would always, you know, cart around the wheelchair, which would fill me with such resentment that the world is not set up for people with disabilities to experience it. It's gotten better in the last 18 years, but I remember I would be so mad. And I was also aggressive too, as much as you're making me emote on camera. Why doesn't this place have like, yeah, like I have another side of my personality too, which is very aggressive as necessary. And so I would go to these places and like, really? And then people look at you kind of disdainfully, like it's an imposition. And that would make me angry. My mother was calm down and I would create conflict all over the place. And she goes, so, but be kind, because it's, at the end of the day, life is about trying to eke out some joy and experience for the short time where we have here. So if you take a step back, when somebody's suffering, and if you have an opportunity to alleviate it, you focus on yourself first and feed your family, take care of them. But if you have some excess.

Be kind to others.

Be kind to others.

What's your greatest fear right now?

What is my greatest fear right now? That's a great question.

Anyone ever ask you these, Matt?

No, I know. No, they don't. It's actually, I regret coming out with you. My greatest fear is that I'll fail my kids in some way. Two kids? I have two kids, yeah. I have four kids now, 'cause I have step kids too. Oh, wow. Yeah, so I have four. It's one big Brady Bunch. I have amazing kids. Truly amazing. I know people say that, but I really do. But that's my biggest fear, 'cause the thing is-- But you'll fail them? That I'll fail them, that when, you know, well imagine you come to the end of the journey and look at you, you have your books, you have this incredible life that you've created, you've inspired millions of people, right? if you did all that and the people, out of all those millions, there were two kids and you failed them, what would it matter that you inspired the rest? Yeah. So for me, because I'm thinking about it, I'm probably mostly getting it right. Nobody's getting it right perfectly. And anybody who has kids knows that you're probably passing on your Freudian problems or whatever that you don't even realize, right? So unfortunately, there's little you can do about it. But on balance, I think I'm getting right. But that's the area that I focus the most about. do not want to get that wrong.

And you take a lot of time for your kids. You make sure to structure your business where you have time for them and all those things. Yeah, I'm not too obsessive about the business that you don't spend time with them as well.

No, and I think that, first of all, it does a disservice when people act like that's the case. To me, you're not being a hero if you're ignoring the kids. You have to do what you have to do to feed your family and to agree to express yourself, your destiny, if you believe in God, God's will. It can't come at the, or shouldn't come at the expense of your children. And then you have to define what that looks like. For me, it's regularity of contact and it's the intensity of how we are to each other. And so I do the best I can to draw boundaries around my life. I wasn't that good early on.

Yeah, probably the Jets, you were probably more like heavily involved in like growing your career.

Yeah, yeah. And they have a great mom and I think she's played a big role in making sure that like I stick to that consistency. 'Cause, you know, I think when you have a high powered job, you want the whole world to bend to what you're doing. You seem really important. And there's a degree of truth to that, right? Like there's only so much you can do if you're working on a deal. But I have created guardrails around their life to ensure that I'm consistent in them. I think about that topic a lot, and I'm mostly peaceful with how I've done it. And for me, an intervening event was having cancer when I was diagnosed with cancer about 10 years ago. I remember this. Yeah.

Because when I was interviewing you, I think you were going through that, right?

Yeah, yeah. Wow, okay. I forgot about that. First of all, that's why I was so heavy. because I assumed, well, I'm now gonna lose weight, right?

Let me just eat it all.

Yeah, I'm the one person who gains all that weight with cancer. I had testicular cancer.

Holy cow.

How'd you get through that? Well, when I was first diagnosed, my immediate emotions were like, I can't believe I have hit this level of professional success and then my life is gonna be derailed. That was my first emotion, actually. Very defensive and very untrusting of the world. Now I'm gonna be a lemon and no one's gonna invest in me. Wow. Yeah, I was very, I had crazy emotions. I mean, I got diagnosed on a, let's say a Tuesday, right? I had surgery within maybe 24 hours. Holy cow. And then I went back to work the next full day. You're crazy. Yeah, and so, and right, and that--.

It might take like a week.

Well, but remember, it's a very macho culture working at a sports team. Right. Two, I think I was borderline delusional. Like you have a little bit of a post-trauma response. Like, wait a second, no one's gonna care, so I'm gonna go to work. And I remember reflecting, sitting out, having wine, sitting around a table with a bunch of coaches, and here I have this big thing on the side, and everyone looking at me, looking back thinking, they're finally, you're out of your mind. Wow. Why are you here? But once I-- what are you doing on the side?

Like ice or something? I don't remember what it was like.

Yeah, it was like an ice pack.

Yeah, I don't know, I want to get too graphic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something that was hanging out, like-- yeah, you could imagine, it's real surgery, right? So, yeah, so that-- so I look back, like, And I look back and I bragged about it too at the time, right? Look at me on the board. Look how tough I am. You're such an unbalanced idiot. That was one, too, though. I used to call it zero time. When you are facing the imminent prospect of death, which by the way, we are every day, but for some reason we're completely alienated from it. But when it's actually front and center, you then audit all the things you think about. And because your mind still is working, and you realize 97% of everything you think about does not hold up against the prospect of immediate death. New York Times listings for brownstones don't matter. Nice cars, whatever it is I want to achieve does not matter. Status is irrelevant. And so I realized a ton of my thoughts was like zero time. Wow, I might be dead in a year or less. Who knows? And nothing I think about matters. The one thing I thought about that mattered was what's my epitaph going to read relative to my kids? My son was only three months at the time, and I've held onto that thought ever since. against the backdrop of death, your children will always matter. They are the thought that holds up. And that'll be the thing that you probably think about on your deathbed, at least I will. How did I do?

Right?

Which does make sense, right? We're here to culture and nurture and cultivate and pass it on. So I've tried to hold on to that. All the other lessons from, and this is the other thing, unfortunately many of the other lessons fade away, right? Stay present. Life is precious. I struggled to go back to there. Sometimes for a while, for 10 years, I would go back or whatever it was, seven years, I'd go back to Sloan Kettering for very invasive tests and searches. And I always liked that day because I felt like I reconnected with the lessons of mortality. And well, now I downloaded an app to do the same thing. It's called WeCroak. WeCroak? Yes, five times a day, it reminds you that you're gonna die. No way. Yes, and it gives you a quote about death.

And it's all based on, I know.

You'Re looking at me like I'm insane. No, that's great. It brings you back to urgency. That's right, well there's a little country Bhutan, right? and it's considered the, I hope I'm saying it right, it's considered the happiest place on earth. And one of the reasons why is because they require themselves to remind themselves that they're dying multiple times a day. Wow.

And it sounds nuts, but- It makes.

You so grateful for the littlest things. Well, and also, you take a deep breath. You're like, oh, that thing that I'm preoccupied with and I'm stressed out about is completely irrelevant. And it relieves you of it. You would think that then it would make you anxious about it, it actually relieves you of the stress. that you carry. And that is consistent with when I went through, you know, battle with cancer. Like, 'cause that is the ever-present reality, right, that we are, we have a little-- Every day we're dying. Right, so somebody at ABC actually, Barbara Fedida gave me this, Tell me, download this. And it's actually been great. So that's how I reconnect. Five times a day. Somewhere in this interview, I'm like, all right, he made you emotional 'cause now I'm annoyed at you, but it won't.

Matter 'cause I'm gonna die eventually. Wow. what's the thing you're most proud of that most people don't know about? Maybe not some big accomplishment or business that you invested in early, but something that you're proud of that might be.

The amount of energy I put into being a good dad, because I don't think that necessarily would have played out that way. I don't know if it would have played out that way had I not gotten divorced, even though divorce is incredibly painful and. And disruptive and tragic. I It does as a divorced parent make you lock in. Really? And so I'm proudest of the focus, 'cause it takes a lot of focus. And I don't think always society gives men enough room to be honest about their role. I don't think there's enough respect for the role of a father and the role that the challenges it takes to balance out being in the workplace and also being a dad. And I think a lot of men I talk to struggle with that too, to acknowledge that I want to I want to carve out time. I want to go to the recital. And so I do think my point of that is it takes a lot of discipline and a lot of sacrifice to ensure that you're being the kind of dad that you want to be. You have to be very intentional. It doesn't happen by accident and you have to make sacrifices. Just carve out the time. Yeah, I'm not golfing. I don't do anything on the weekends other than be with them. I also don't want to do anything other than be with them. And then I got to go to work to football games on Sundays. I'm highly intentional about it. So I'm probably proudest of that. And that's not rhetoric. Everything else Again, go back to the object of the exercise. Getting that right is more important than most anything else. Wow.

How old are your kids?

Well, they're 10 and 11 and they're 15 and 17. 10 and 11 are your original kids?

Exactly.

And then I have the 15 and the 17. But they're all just wonderful, sweet kids and they all lean into each other and take care of each other.

Are you based in Miami now, mostly full-time or traveling a lot?

No, I'm based in New York. New York. Live in New Jersey. go to Miami. I travel.

Come to LA a lot.

Yeah, I travel probably two to three times a day. But my rule is I don't stay anywhere for more than 24 hours. Wow. So I can get back and see my kids. And then I, so I, so like in the last seven days, I've been to Vegas and back, Miami and back, Green Bay and back. Back home. Back home.

And then you fly.

I always fly back. What? Yeah. You don't just stay and go to the next thing. No, because if I can carve out that little bit of extra time, like I flew back from Vegas and I I have to take my son to school. So why wouldn't I do that? I used to, God, I used to go to China and fly, take the two o'clock flight on 2 a.m. flight on Monday morning, go there and then get back. But it's not about being a hero. It's more gratifying than anything else I could do. So that 20-minute drive to the 20-minute drive, it's magic. And then you miss those little opportunities. But so I'm proudest of the amount of intentionality it takes for me to be able to pull that off, right? Because that doesn't come by accident.

Wow.

And I'm unhappiest when I don't forecast enough my schedule and I compromise. I hate that. Like that really, that really kind of gets to me. But again, I wasn't always like that. So all those out there who are listening saying, well, you aren't always like that.

I was not always like that.

You've improved over the years. Yeah, and I think the other thing that I've been, that my brother will ask me this question, like, what do you think is the key to your professional success in the last, you know, 10 years? It's not like you were an investor or a business builder. I think it's, I made the transition from believing that I was the change agent, like I had the answers and my brain power could get me there. And other people were meant to draft behind me and just, you know, do what I say or follow my direction to realizing that if that the key to greatness, significant success at much larger scale, is to find people who are even better than you and submit to their greatness. Wow. And maybe like, and I, and accelerate the process. Accelerate the process. So look at Gary, right? Gary is accepting. I sit down with Gary and marvel at the level of intrinsic self-confidence he has and wishes I could just, can I get a little more of that? Yeah, yeah. Like he has no inside voice that's doubting anything and it's legitimate. He's completely authentic. Say what you will, he is what he is. So I draft behind that greatness, right? And my partner in my PR firm is amazing at taking a DCC, a direct to consumer brand from scratch and figuring out-- Building it up. Building it up. So that ice traffic in the land of, you know, greatness and trying to find those people. One, you get to learn from them. And two, it's nice to be humbled every day. It's not interesting to feel your superior. To be the smartest person all the time. Yes, it's much more interesting to reveal where you're not. And because then life would get boring over time. So I realized that has been the single kind of pivot of my life is to stop thinking that it all had to be on my shoulders and instead find better people. And there's nothing-- Teams. Yeah, teams have been even just marveling at, you know, Michelangelo and their own little field, right? And then doing what it takes to support them, that there's no-- that that's an honorable life, right? That it doesn't-- you don't need to be the name and headline. The guy.

Yeah.

Now I'm on Shark Tank, so I.

Guess I'm contradicting myself.

What is that experience like for you, being on Shark Tank? It's been amazing. It actually began because my son loves the show. Not big into sports and whatnot, but we connect over that show. Yeah. So I've watched every episode. He would ask me if I did a deal. Did you do a royalty deal? I was like, that's only on TV with Kevin O'Leary. Like, I don't-- that's nonsense or whatever. But anyway, I love the show and sometimes you just got to do stuff that's just fun for you. There aren't a lot of things that I do that are just purely fun for me and enjoyment and I thought I would enjoy it. I think I'm capable of doing it and I'm good at it. And there's some elements of the way the show plays out that I don't think are completely represent the way I do it. And so I saw an opportunity to contribute. The experience has been amazing.

It's been fun.

Yeah, much more authentic than I would have expected. Yeah, I would have thought it was more made for TV. And then when you're part of it, you realize it's actually-- you-'re invested. Yeah, you're-- you-'re investing. It's just a longer version of what.

You see on TV, and it's highly, highly, highly competitive. Yeah, it's about what?

30, 45 minutes per person. Yeah, per person, per pitch. And then when I went on, I took the approach of why pretend that you are comfortable in this environment? Who would be comfortable going on the set of a TV show having never done it before? First time when everybody else has been there. And Mark Cuban is sitting there. It's an intimidating environment. So I asked each one for nuggets of advice, and the advice was fantastic. What do they all say that you can share? The advice that I got from Kevin O'Leary, we went out to dinner at Momofuku at Co. Had an epic meal five hours before the show. So I was like, let me have a rapport and just spend some time with him soaking it up. And he said, listen, okay, don't worry about which shark you're gonna be because you're gonna be you. And the TV doesn't lie. He's like, you can't fake it. You can't fake it. If you try to fake it, the TV doesn't lie, it's gonna call you out. and that was a relief because everyone asked, well, what shark do you think? As if there'd be like an amalgam or, are you Laurie, are you Robert Herjavec? That was a relief because then I said, victory here is probably just being competent and being yourself. And then the other advice I got from a couple of different sharks was, don't reach. In business, you don't reach. In business, you go after something that you really respect. So don't reach because you feel like you have to do a deal that you want to do. And I think that was a relief because otherwise your impulses I got to do a deal.

I got to do a deal.

I'm here. I got to do it. And of course, I definitely want to do a deal. And I did do a deal. I like to think I didn't reach. The deal I did on the show that's come out is something I would.

Have done out in the marketplace.

With the same type of deal, maybe like slightly different. Yeah, slightly different. But I would have done this deal. I love Beyond Sushi. I love the founder. I think it's also fascinating to think you only have 60 minutes to dissect a person or 40. Can I learn as much about a.

Person in 40 minutes that I would.

Take me months to figure out?

With all this due diligence and background.

Checks and all that stuff. Yeah. So Mark Cuban was making fun of me because I said, Mark, isn't it interesting from an anthropological standpoint whether or not you could dissect a human being? He's like, Anthropo- who says anthropological? He ripped me in front of a whole audience. Duly, I should have been. But my point is, can you learn everything you need to know if you refine your filter in 40 minutes?

And I actually think you can.

I think you can't learn everything you need to know about a business. Yeah. You have to do due diligence on the information. Well, people will say one thing and it's another or whatever, but everything I learned about Guy, the chef in the show at Beyond Sushi, I think has and probably will play out, which is fascinating. So we can be a lot more efficient with our time. That's amazing.

Is there any question you wish more people would ask you that they don't ask? That's a good question too.

That question, I wish people would ask me about that question. I don't think this, I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

Is there anything you're extremely passionate about right now? right now that you want to talk about or dive into?

Yeah, I'm really passionate about fast casual because everything is about experience these days. And fast.

And healthy and good.

Right. But also exquisite, which in the past would seem contradictory impulses. How do you scale an exquisite experience? How do you scale a boutique experience? But that's what this generation in particular expects. So when a brand resonates, There's a tremendous opportunity, and I believe we have a few of them. Mamafuku and Milk Bar.

Milk Bar, you're part of Milk Bar?

Yeah, yeah. I'm on the board of Milk Bar.

Amazing. Yeah, no, Christina Tosi.

She was at the Pence the Promise Gala.

I met her for a quick, quick moment.

She's amazing, yeah.

The freaking docu-series.

Was Jeff's Table? Jeff's Table. Did you watch that?

Of course.

Did I watch it? Of course. She's from Ohio, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's from Ohio. So that's my, I'm glad you know it. So if you look at my portfolio, Yeah, Milk Bar. So I'm on the board. I'm a partner. I'm a partner with David Chang. So why am I interested in that? I do think we are eventually due for a downturn in a relatively short period of time. Corporations are way over leveraged. There's going to be a correction. And Fast Casual tends to fare very well in a downturn. In fact, in 2008, Fast Casual was up 3%. Only sector of the economy to do well. So I think if you could back winners in this space, it's a nice portfolio to have there. that's not why I'm passionate. I think that's why it's smart. Why I'm passionate is there's artistry in food. And even if it's casual, right? Somebody who's trying to say, I want to turn this into a big business because I have ambition, but I don't want to compromise quality, but I want to scale my vision and the exceptional nature of what I'm producing. And by virtue of them being in the space, they're also an artist. Christina Tosi is an artist. David is an artist. For me, it uses all sorts of left brain, right brain things happening. It's also very aggravating. You know, you're opening up physical places and you're dealing with it. It's not, and again, Snapchat would be amazing, or maybe I should use Facebook as a better example. Sure. But it's great when you hit on a digital property, but there's something wonderful about brick and mortar physical spaces. So I'm really passionate about Fast Casual. Cybersecurity, we have a big business in cybersecurity. It's basically privatized law enforcement, if you think about it. It's only gonna get worse and worse and worse. It's something that we all need, we all know we need to protect ourselves from. We don't know how, and we don't know what it entails. And so it's why I bought, I acquired a cybersecurity business, thinking that if I could build a brand that was accessible and make it less black box, less Tron-like, so that I could communicate to small and midsize businesses, this is the threat and this is what you need to do about it. I think there's a huge opportunity and that's something I'm spending a lot of time. It's called Scout. Scout. If you're letting me plug my sure.

I'm gonna plug scout.com. yeah, it's just there you go.

S-K-O-U-T. S-K-O-U-T, got it, cool. What do you wish people would ask you about?

Now I'm gonna interview you. I think the basics about the way we think, the way I think, and I think you kind of referenced it a little bit, it was like at one point and then something, you went off somewhere else, but the thoughts you were telling yourself, the conversations you were telling yourself, I think It dictates someone's belief in themselves, which is going to dictate whether you want to invest in them or partner with them based on the conversations that I have with myself every minute of every day.

Yeah.

So I like talking about that, like how I learned how to have more positive conversations. As simple and like woo woo as that sounds, but just like the constant conversation that I have internally in the visualization of who I want to be and what I want to create.

What'S your inside voice telling you when it's being helpful? And what does it tell you when it's being unhelpful?

When it's being helpful, it's just very light and positive and empowering. It's just like, yeah, maybe it's gonna be challenging what you're doing, but you're gonna get through it and you're not gonna die. And it's not gonna be the end of the world. Like, people may laugh at you or you may fail, but you're gonna be okay. You're gonna learn from it. And I think coaches in sports really taught me that, like, I learned from an early age that you have to fail through all the reps. When I'm out in the football field and I've never played, I'm gonna drop the ball a bunch. You have to fail to learn. So I learned quickly that was the foundation for achievement. It's like failure because that's where you get the most information. So I always embrace the failure and I just remind myself, I'm gonna make mistakes. It's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. But it just keeps me pushing forward. and so that's when it's helpful, when it's not helpful is probably when my ego gets in the way or I think like, or I get too defensive, my thoughts are defensive and they're like, they don't know me or how could they actually say that about me? And my ego gets in the way. But then I come back to gratitude, gratitude, humility and vision. I start focusing more on what can I learn from this? What do I really want to create in this moment? And is this important for me to hold on to so tightly or kind of let it go? and breathe. Because I think when you have the reminder five times a day that you're gonna die, these things don't matter. And it doesn't matter what people are saying about me or their judgments or if I make mistakes. It really doesn't matter. What matters is the kindness I bring to other people.

I like that.

Like you talked about, like the kindness that I can bring every day, because that energy is what will impact the people around me in their day. If someone's struggling and I'm just generous with my smile. Like, that's a good thing.

That's why you asked me what question I wish people would ask more. It's really more what topic for me. And I talked to my wife about this because I can get remarkably antisocial. It's small talk. I think, I don't know why we don't spend more time commiserating over that which we're ashamed of, or that which we struggle of. It's almost like the little dark secret of the world. And we're way too set up to keep those things hidden. And yet it's the common struggle. Everyone has either the inside voice, going back to helpful and everyone has the unhelpful inside voice. And we don't provide a lot of room in society to have those conversations. And I think it does everybody a disservice.

That's why I do this show.

Yeah, I love that.

And I go right into, what's your biggest struggle? What's your biggest fear?

I do the Irish goodbye all the time. I'll just exit and literally leave, 'cause I can't take it. When the conversation turns to small talk, I'm like, Really, can't we talk about what we're really dealing with?

I never go to bars, I don't drink and go out to those places, 'cause I feel like if I do.

I'm gonna have to get into someone's soul quickly. Unsame- People don't wanna do that. Oh no, I'm the guy, I'm so remarkably inappropriate.

Yeah, yeah.

My wife will say all the time, you get excited when somebody is struggling, like carrying around the pain of divorce. Yeah, 'cause then you could talk about real stuff. Talk well, and there's like, there's a layer of authenticity of the universe that we never reveal. in our day-to-day most of the time. I know that's what most people really.

Want to talk about.

Now my wife will say to me, well, maybe people aren't struggling with anything. Perhaps. I was struggling with something though. Struggling with something, but isn't it just more interesting? Wouldn't you rather commiserate? It doesn't have to be.

And talk about the weather.

It doesn't have to be depression, obviously. It doesn't have to be anything even that big, so to speak. Purposeful things. Purposeful things are where I'd like to go.

Or again, the inside voice.

Maybe we should all start conversations. Be like, tell me about your unhelpful inside voice so we can make my helpful one battle it out. You know, they're good.

I like that.

But anyway, that's the thing I wish more, especially the more successful you have, whatever that means, however that's objectively defined, the more powerful revealing shame becomes. That's what I like to talk about, because I do think it's a lonely journey. And people like to airbrush all the messy stuff. I'd rather take off the airbrush and show it.

What are you most ashamed of?

Not ashamed of more, I guess I could be ashamed of, the dropping out and could be ashamed of lots of decisions, I mean, particularly that and poverty, you know, Mike wanting to make it look like, you know, that I came from a perfect school. But I don't think I'm ashamed of much. It's more just a matter of, I want to talk about what I struggle with.

Gotcha. What we struggle with the most.

Well, you never feel successful. It's annoying. You don't feel successful at any level? No.

What would it take for you to feel successful? If you had a billion dollars in the bank, if you owned the world?

I think for me, a steady state of peace. I think success is a steady state of peace. The other stuff.

How do you find a steady state of peace?

I'm working on it. I think everyone has their own definition of it. For me, it's probably being present. I think the present is the biggest gift that we're given as people, right? That the only reality that is true is now and present, not the past, not the future per se, because you may not get a chance to have that future, right? I think for me, achieving peace is about being present, about being mindful.

Not regretting the past and fixating on the future.

Not being defensive like you talked about, being grateful, being connected with our mortality, being intentional, right, living an intentional life. I think the achievement of peace is much more successful than the achievement of professional success. So that's that. That's one part, but then just generally, I don't reflect upon what I got right and sit around. I really reflect on what's not going right. -Gosh, we have to talk about that. -I'm reflecting on the fact that you made me teary in this interview. See? That's the-- Do you have to say--.

Even though I'm enjoying talking to you. I appreciate you opening up. I feel like I've learned more and more from all the people I interview. I feel blessed because I get to go to school every day here.

Right.

That-- who was I interviewing a couple weeks ago? Tiff was about celebrating your wins, like, every day, every week. David Goggins, who is a guy who's done like more 200 mile races and extreme, like a world record for the most pull-ups in a day and like crazy extreme athlete. And he said he would just keep going to the next 100 mile race, 100 mile race or whatever the race was. And the next extreme thing. And he wouldn't even collect his medal at the end.

Like he would win and he would leave.

He wouldn't even like take a moment to be like, here's my medal. I'm going to receive it or the certificate or whatever it is. and go to the party and just be like, we did it. Because it was never enough for him. So we had to keep going to the next thing to keep proving something.

Did he change?

Yeah, he said he started to have peace in his heart when he started to acknowledge and celebrate what he's creating like every day, every week, every milestone. And it gives him that inner peace.

Yeah, I think that's, for me, it's partly about I enjoy the act of creation and beginning to understand that that's what resonates with me. The recognition or the reflective glory of doing something is actually not the part that resonates. Appreciating the creative process. Yeah, and so that's okay. Actually, it's not something I want to change anymore. I'm not seeking adulation or I'm not seeking attention.

I actually enjoy the act of creation.

So the fact that I- But you have to be present to it. I do, and so if I didn't appreciate that, so taking a step back and seeing the fact that we created this PR firm and now there's 100 people who work there. You started from scratch. Scratch, that I do enjoy, but most of my mental energy does go towards what's not working. But I think it's why I think- you-'re a problem solver. I'm a problem solver and you want to go there, right?

So I'm not unhappy.

I mean, it's not, so it's not a crisis. The balance of peace, yeah. Yes, but when I will feel ultimately truly successful is a steady state of peace, which is where I spend more of my time on thinking about now, meditating.

When I meditate, I don't know if you meditate. Of course you do, right? Yeah, so meditating is, I think, really important.

Very passionate about that. Yeah, maybe if you put your energy towards the problem of finding more peace, you'd solve it quicker. But then I wouldn't be able to solve all these other problems. See, this is the self-talk. Like, I got stuff to do. You work on it. No, I'm dividing my time.

Yeah, of course.

But I do, I love solving problems and I love creating things. I also like to be right and early. To me, that's fun. That's amazing, right?

And it feeds the ego too.

Well, and also, I do think you find this people who went through some form of early trauma because you're so hypervigilant and you're always scanning the horizon to be safe. You figure out patterns earlier and that's the positive corollary. There's always a positive corollary, right? So, I like using those pattern recognition skills to see things. And it's fun, right? But not fun in I'm going to get celebrated for it.

Fun like, that's interesting. I hear you. Yeah, this is fun. Okay, a couple questions for you. This one's called the Three Truths.

I ask everyone at the end this question.

Imagine you've created all the success you want. You've invested in the businesses. You've got the incredible family, and it's hundreds of years away, and it's your last day. You have hundreds of years away.

We're hundreds of years away.

You've lived as long as you want. Okay. But the app has finally come to life.

Okay, the app is right. That's right.

You're gonna die one day and it's your last day. Imagine. Okay. Hypothetical. You've created everything.

Okay.

Any dream you have, it's manifested. You're at peace with all your decisions. But for whatever reason, all the stuff you've created, you've gotta take it with you. So no one has access to the information you've put out there. in the world, like your words, your writing, your videos, Shark Tank, like they don't have access to this interview and it's all come with you. You've had to take it with you. But everyone's celebrating you. You get to write exactly what you want on your epitaph. Like it's all been great. And you have an opportunity to leave behind three truths, three things you know to be true from all your experiences in life, which would be the three lessons you'd like to share with the world. if they didn't have the information you created, but they have these final three lessons for the world, your kind of Bible to life, what would you say are your three truths?

What are yours first? Can I hear you?

I'll share with you afterwards.

Okay.

I'll share with you afterwards. Okay, what are my-- so you can't deflect.

I know. I was enjoying it. I was like, Let me buy myself more time. Did you lack more time? Yeah, think about it.

Whatever's on the mind right now, obviously this can change.

I would say that be in the moment. That is the only thing that is that one, number two. On your deathbed, you will ask yourself, was I a great dad? And love the journey. Don't focus on the result.

Those are great.

Yeah. Those are great.

Where can we connect with you online? Where can we support you?

So it's a, thank you. On Instagram, which is where I'm focusing My attention, energy, which I think most people are Matt Higgins, RSE.

RSE, which stands for-- We don't have.

A meaning quite, you know, RSE. Raw sports and entertainment. He doesn't love that. So we just gave up. That's just our rseventures.com is the name of the company. Matt Higgins RSE. Matt Higgins RSE on Instagram. That's where to find me. So we can connect. And Autism Speaks is my passionate cause. I just want to mention that. Autism Speaks.

Yep, I'm on the board of it.

I spend a lot of energy on kids on the on the spectrum, so.

I just want to make sure we talk about that.

Where can people find that? autismspeaks.org. Yeah, anybody out there who is dealing with any kind of issues related to child on the spectrum or is wondering whether or not they've identified the signs, there's tons of information there. Happy to connect with me on Instagram.

If you need to connect with somebody, but I always want to put that out there. That's cool. autismspeaks.org, Matt Higgins, RSE.

You spending more time on Instagram, so if people reach out to you or they Yeah, do the best I can. I just like Instagram. I like the positivity of it, right? And Twitter is just the land of hate sometimes. And there's so much vitriol right now in our society. I know everyone talks about it, but I really don't like where we are. And so I reject it and I put my energy into Instagram where people are happy and where you are.

Yeah, spreading positivity.

Right, isn't it great? I mean, it's just better. And then LinkedIn is nice too, but a lot of effort Yeah. So Instagram.

If someone's interested in raising money, how would they get a hold of you for like pitching?

Yeah, go to the website where you actually are building a rseventures.com and post Shark Tank. Obviously getting inundated. So we're building a little bit of an onboarding platform. But yeah, feel free to send the send and send the email. We won't be shy telling you whether we agree with you or not. But I like to sift through to find the goal.

There you go. Okay. Before I ask the final question, I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Matt, for opening up and sharing these stories because I know it's not easy. So I appreciate you sharing everything from your business insights to opening up about your mom and all those challenges because you've gone through a lot, man. You've gone through a lot and I really acknowledge you for overcoming so much and using the lessons to help people. And I love your heart for wanting to give back with the resources and power you've created. So thank you for it. Yeah, thank you for your kindness as well. Oh, thank you.

Yeah, I appreciate it. I appreciate you saying that. I love seeing you. I mean, I think we connected on a moment in time, you know? And now I look back on where you are right now and I kind of knew it. I thought you'd be where you are again. Yeah, you've always been meant to be a little hustler. Yeah, we're only probably in the third inning as it pertains to you. Is it time to just getting started? I really do. I know you're just getting started. And I wonder when we do this again 10 years ago, 10 from now, hopefully we're both sitting here, but if not, that's okay. But I know that you have a lot more to do.

Yeah, it's gonna be fun.

Okay.

It's gonna be fun. I appreciate it. The final question is, what is your definition of greatness?

What is mine?

Don't ask me mine.

I was like, what is my definition of greatness in any sector?

Yeah, and just in your general definition, what do you think it is for you?

Someone who is living an intentional life, is peaceful with that intentional life and has organized their life and their occupation around do no harm intentionally. I'm very passionate about human rights and that the greatest right that we have is to live an unfettered life to pursue your own sort of destiny. And so to me, it's that's the combination of peace, intentionality, and trying to do no harm as objectively defined as possible.

Matt Higgins. My man.

Thank you.

Appreciate it, man.

There you have it, my friends. I hope you enjoyed this powerful interview with my friend Matt Higgins, successful businessman who's on the pulse of investments and businesses and growth. If you have any questions for him, make sure to hit him up, send him a direct message, shoot him an email, connect with him online. Matt Higgins over on Instagram. check him out on Twitter as well. And make sure to watch the episode on Shark Tank. Very powerful insights. This is one of the smartest guys I know when it comes to investing and knowing what's going to be successful in business. He's done a powerful job at this. So I hope you guys enjoyed this. As always, tag me on your Instagram story, share with your friends, text a few friends as well who you think.

Might benefit from this.

It's all about spreading the message of greatness. We are we are all in this together. We're on this incredible planet together, and there's information out there that can support one another. If you know someone this can support, share it with them. Give them the gift of greatness. Like we said in the beginning, guys, you have an opportunity to do something great with your life. And Winston Churchill said, success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts. and I don't care where you're at in your life right now. The courage to continue is what matters. Whether you've achieved great things already in one area of your life and you're reinventing your life in a new area, or if you've been struggling for a while, none of that matters. What matters is that you continue, is that you learn, is that you shift. You take the adversity and you use the lessons in a powerful way to then grow and try something different. That's what this is about, continuing in a positive, powerful way to inspire your own life and inspire the lives around you. As always, I love you so very much. I'm so proud to be a part of this community with you and to be able to host this show with some of the most iconic people in the world to have them share and open up and give you the tools, stories and inspiration to help you live your greatest life. And as always, you know what time it is? It's time to go out there and do something great.