731 Mindset of Becoming World Champion with Sasha Digiulian

This is episode number 731 with world champion Sasha DeJulian. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

[Speaking of the language].

Helen Keller said, Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved. And Marcus Aurelius said, you, have power over your mind, not outside events. Realize this and you will find strength. I am so excited about this episode. Sasha DiGiulian is a professional rock climber who in 2012 became the first American woman to climb grade 9A. After leaving high school, she took a gap year to travel and rock climb, concentrating on international competition and outdoor climbing. She won the gold medal at the World Championships, and she has climbed over 31st female ascents, as well as eight significant first ascents in South Africa, a big wall in Brazil in 2016, and the Misty Wall in Yosemite in 2017. DeJulian is a three-time national champion in female open, and she has won multiple female open Pan Am championships from 2004 until the end of her junior career in 2010. She was the undefeated Pan American champion, and wow, I've been excited about this for a while because she inspires me to grow in my own life. When I watch her images, her videos, and watch her story over the last couple of years that I got to know her online, I said, I've got to have her in the studio and learn about the way she thinks. When you're climbing vertical alone or with a partner and you're climbing this huge mountain vertical, that you're sleeping on the side of a rock, how do you stay mentally prepared, mentally tough, mentally focused under all the conditions that are being thrown your way on a cliff, climbing thousands of feet. And I said, if I could learn some information, some wisdom from her own experience, and if we could translate that into our own life, if we can translate that into the challenges that we're struggling, into the walls we're climbing and the obstacles we're constantly overcoming, then I thought this would be a very powerful episode. And it definitely is. Make sure to share this with your friends, lewishouse.com/731 with Sasha de Julian. She's an incredible woman. Make sure to follow her over on.

Instagram and YouTube and all those places.

As well. And in this interview, we talk about how having an open mind helps with staying focused in your life. Also, how great passion creates the greatest climbers and the greatest achievers in life. Why negativity doesn't get you anywhere. I don't care how frustrated you are about something. The negativity you have in your life will only hold you back. It will not propel you forward. And how to trust the process when you listen to the universe, how to tap into that trust and intuition even more. Super pumped about this. Again, a big thank you to our sponsors for helping us make this one of the best and biggest podcasts in the world and spread the message of greatness just like we have with our dear friend today. I'm super excited about this one. Let me introduce to you the one and only Sasha DeJulian.

Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness podcast. We've got Sasha DeJulian in the house. What's up, girl?

So excited to see you.

Good to see you. I've been trying to get you on for, I think, a year and a half, I was saying earlier.

Yeah.

We connected on Instagram, so this is our first time hanging out in person, but it's been fun to watch your journey. And I'm always curious and fascinated about connecting with people like yourself because what you do is extremely difficult and I could never do it. So I appreciate your artistry, your work ethic, and your skill level because it's just so much-- I can't even climb like seven feet on like an easy wall. I tried this last year where it was like a big hand-- like handles and everything. It was like, man, I suck. My mobility is horrible. Like, I can't stay close enough to the wall. I'm just like this big giant on there. So you are-- It's all relative. It is, yeah, yeah, of course.

That's my little-- this is your thing.

And you were-- You're a former world champion. Is that right?

Yeah.

Three-time USA champion. And what's the discipline called?

So world champion, I was the overall world champion. So that's the combination of all three disciplines. Wow. Sport climbing, bouldering, and speed climbing. And for nationals, it's sport climbing. So nationals and Pan Ams and some competitions.

What's the difference between the three? For those that don't know anything about climbing?

Yeah, no, that's a great question. So speed climbing is, basically the most digestible form of competition climbing that you could describe to an audience. And that's whoever gets to the top.

Of a homogulated wall wins.

Artificial wall. Artificial wall.

Yeah.

Yeah. So how tall is the wall?

It's 15 meters.

15 meters.

Where's that 45 feet?

It is about 45 feet. Okay, 45 feet. Yeah. And then sport climbing is also on all of competition climbing is on artificial settings. Okay. So sport climbing is more of a difficult path. that no one has ever climbed on before. And so it's new to every single competitor. So we're all on like a clean playing field.

You don't get to practice beforehand.

No, you don't.

You just see the wall.

You see the wall and then you have one shot to get as high as you can. And then the time breaker, the tie breaker is time.

Wow.

And then bouldering is similar, but it's a composite of different boulder problems. So normally there's four to five boulder problems. And in each of these, there's rounds. There's like, Qualifiers semifinals finals, but bouldering is the shorter, more powerful form of climbing. So there's like normally about eight movements and they're on shorter walls, whereas sport climbing is on like 15 to 20 meter walls. It's like 45 to 60 feet. Bouldering is on like maximum 15 feet tall because you don't have a rope. So if you fall, you fall onto what's like a gymnastics pad.

Yeah.

Interesting. Huh, okay, so you started this when you were really young?

Yeah, I started climbing when I was six.

Did your dad get you into this.

Or did someone... No, no, so I went to my brother's birthday party at a local climbing gym and he was turning eight. He was a hockey player, I was figure skating. We went, it was like this little group of boy hockey players and me. And then I grew up super competitive with my brother and I think that something that was like, very engaging about climbing for me was that finally I found what I was better than my brother at.

First try.

Yeah, but so I did well. I think I had a natural inclination to like do well at the birthday party, I mean, whatever that means. And so the gym employee told my mom, Hey Sasha seems to really enjoy this. You know, we have a junior team program. and that was this program that meets like each Wednesday and Saturday morning. And so I started going to that. It was like a group of youth kids that from the area. I grew up in DC.

Yeah.

And then one Saturday morning I walked into the gym at seven and they were holding a youth regional championships. That was how I like literally stumbled upon the world of competition climbing.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's history. You just kept Pursuing it.

Yeah, so that's when I went to the first competition. I was seven, I competed in 11 and under. I won my category, kind of like... First competition? Yeah, I mean, like, like, beginner's luck. And then I started competing at a youth level. I started competing, my first international competition was actually the North American Championships in Mexico City. When I was, I think I was 10 or 11.

That's pretty cool.

And then that was my first big international competition to win. And then I started competing for the US national team when I was 16, because that's your eligibility for competing for the US on the World Cup circuit. And then did the World Cup circuit, won the World Championships, then I started transitioning my career more to outdoor climbing.

So after you won the World Championships, how old were you then?

I was 18. Just turning 19.

18. That's starting to get like old in the competition world, right?

It is.

It's on, it's definitely, I mean, in your competition prime, I would say that you're about 16 to 20, 22.

Okay, so you won the World Championships. Was that always the goal as a kid? It was like to go be on the USA team, win the World Championships.

Yeah, I mean, my goals as a kid was like, when nationals are like climb 5.14, which is a number in climbing that climbing is on this grade scale of five point scale. So as you progress up the numerical scale, it becomes numerically more challenging. So that's like, yeah, exactly.

So a 5.0 would be.

5.0 is super easy. It's like a slab, like a inverted. Yeah, it's like walking on like a versa climber or something.

Oh, really? And then- so I could do that.

You could definitely do like higher grades than that.

Okay.

And then as you get into 5-10, that's when it starts getting like more technically challenging. So like the grades break into subcategories of A, B, C, D, and that's 5.10 A, and then 5.10 B is harder than 5.10 A, and then it goes up to 5-15.

5.15.

5.15, yeah.

That's like the hardest grade. straight up.

Yeah, that's like, basically there's like very minimal holds and it's at like a challenging angle. And I mean, the beauty of climbing is you fall a million times before piecing together something that you're working on. So while it seems like, I mean, one question I get asked a lot is, do you ever fall? And it's kind of ironic to me because I fall all the time. I'm not free soloing. What my discipline is is free climbing. So free climbing and free soloing, the difference is that I have a rope. So if I fall, I fall into the rope and I'm totally safe.

But you fall and hit a rock still, right?

Ideally not. You fall into air or you kind of pendulum softly into the rock?

Really?

Yeah. So if you're lead climbing, you have different points of security along the way and you're basically clipping a carabiner into the rock, which is in a bolt. and then you clip your rope into that carabiner, and then if you fall, you basically fall to your lowest, your carabiner that's far away.

Three feet, six feet?

Yeah, it could be like 60 feet, it could be 20 feet.

60 feet.

It could be 10 feet. It could be like 60 feet would be like major fall.

Oh my gosh. Have you dropped that far before?

Yeah, definitely take some big rope falls.

60 feet?

Ideally you're like falling in air, and that's like- so you're not gonna fall.

And then hit the rock.

Right.

You're falling and you're just like in air.

Yeah, and a lot of stressing your climbing partner because it's the belayer's responsibility to give you a good catch.

So- oh my gosh.

-You'Re being able to give like, into.

The dynamicism of the rope. How do you get back? If you're falling into air, I'm assuming like the angle, I don't know, you're just like going upside down, I feel like that's happening.

So how do you actually get back to the rock? So if you tug like a really big fall, you would ideally have what's called a jumar to ascend the rope. And that's like you just put it into the rope and you climb up on the rope. If it's not too big of a fall or if you can reach the rock, then you just kind of pull on the rope yourself. But in order to successfully send a climb, kind of like surfers send a wave, you have to start at the bottom and reach the top without falling. So where there's like what I've gotten really into over the last few years is big wall climbing. and that's multiple rope lengths on top of each other. So you could be spending multiple days on the cliff face. And in order to successfully free climb something, you need to not fall once. So if you start from the bottom and you reach the top, maybe it's like 3,000 feet or something, then everything in consecutive order has to be done perfectly.

What if you fall once? It won't catch you and bring you back down.

Then you have to go back down.

All the way back down?

So you have to go back down to the last pitch. Okay. And each pitch is broken up by rope lengths, yeah. How far is that? Could be like 150 feet or so. Oh my gosh. It really depends.

Yeah.

So if you fall 150 feet, is that even... People do that?

Oh, well, you wouldn't fall that far. You wouldn't fall that far. That's like the length of the entire pitch.

Hopefully you don't fall 150 feet, that'd be bad.

If you fell six feet, you'd have.

To do the whole 100.

Yeah, you'd have to go back down.

All the way.

No. Yeah.

Come on.

And that happens all the time.

Shut up.

So you learn a lot about patience and the process because it's kind of like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. You have all of these different pieces, all these blank cliff face sequences to put together and try and figure out, okay, how do I get through this one passage that's really challenging?

And make it without falling.

Yeah, yeah, then put them all together.

What's the longest, so the natural progression for climbers who are competitive is to, go on the world circuit ranks and try to win championships and do the artificial climbs, the indoor climb. It's mostly indoor, I'm assuming?

Yeah, indoor.

And then once you've maxed that out, the transition is to go into outdoor.

That's a really natural progression, yeah, because climbing by nature is an outdoor sport. And that's where you can really push the envelope of human capacity because it's like, There's this limitless horizon of what you can possibly achieve and places that you can climb, cliffs to ascend. What's the highest mountain you've climbed? I climbed the north face of the Eiger in Switzerland, and that's, I think, about 13,000 feet.

Wait, but you climbed 13,000 feet from the bottom?

Or was it like you were halfway up already?

You started from the bottom.

From the bottom.

So I'm 13,000 feet. How long does that take?

Actually, we did that particular route in three days.

Wow.

And it was a first female ascent of one of the climbs. I did it with a climbing partner that we ended up, what's called Bibyang. So you sleep on the side of the mountain, and then you're just kind of like fully engulfed in the process of climbing big walls or big mountains, which I love because it kind of mutes All the surrounding chaos of our daily lives.

And nothing else matters.

Yeah, you have to be present.

So this is a three-day climb with one other person.

Yeah.

And you were the first female to complete it?

Mm-.

Yeah.

The first female ascent, is that what it's called?

Yeah, first female ascent. So a lot of my career in outdoor climbing is doing first ascents or first female ascents around the world.

First ascent for any human.

Yeah.

Wow. That's the goal.

That's really cool.

So, I mean, climbing, like, it brings you everywhere because there is basically a place to climb around the world in every remote location you can think of, except for barren deserts or-- Right. Normally there's some sandstone there.

There's something.

Yeah.

There's something to climb. So now when you do these first ascents, you always go with someone else, though, or do you do them alone?

Yeah, I always go with someone else, and often, because you need a climbing partner, So the climbing partner that you have is who you're doing these climbs with. So normally you're climbing together or your climbing partner is just belaying you and supporting you. And then often I go with a film crew too, because a lot of, I mean, professional climbing, like how you make a living is through your endorsement deals. And then a lot of what we do is content creation. Yeah.

Yeah.

If you don't have content, then it's like maybe you get one or two photos or something and that's it, right?

Yeah, what's interesting is in today's world, social media has shifted the whole lens and landscape of what professional climbing looks like. Because now, instead of just talking about my adventures, I can share them on a live basis, which is really cool.

Yeah, your Instagram's amazing. So inspiring. It's just these epic shots of you thousands of feet up. You're just like, oh my gosh, it's crazy. How do you stay focused when it's like, okay, I'm about to climb this next step, but it's a scary moment. Like, I don't know, there's uneven footing.

Or, yeah, and there's nothing.

Have there ever been a place where you're a thousand feet up and there's nowhere to grab?

Yeah, I mean, sometimes you encounter parts of a climb that you don't think are physically possible for you, and a lot goes into like kind of whittling down all the little pieces and trying out different ways. that you can find a solution.

'Cause you'll try and you'll fall a bunch, a few feet or whatever, right?

Yeah, exactly. And you keep pulling back on, trying something else, fall, pull back on, try and find a little credit card size protrusion in the rock to dangle off of. And then if that doesn't work, then you either just keep banging your head on it or train harder and return.

What happens if it doesn't work? Do you just go back down?

Yeah, sometimes.

Shut up. See me a thousand feet in the air.

Yeah, you could be like, I can't do this right now.

And there's 50 feet to go.

Yeah.

If they're going to- you- can literally be stopped. If you're on like a 3,000 foot climb, you can be stopped by six feet. Because if something doesn't go, if you can't physically do it and move, then that can be the end all. But I think a lot of what climbing taught me is there's often a solution. You just have to kind of open your mind up to different possibilities. A lot of climbing, what's so intriguing about the sport physically to me is that it can be the smallest difference in body positioning that makes all the difference. So it's like a very upper body, hand strength oriented sport, but you're really using your entire body, like your core, your hips, and normally the driving force. You have ideally like using your footwork really well because you have to balance on like tiny little nubbins and shift your weight and allocate so that you can exert enough force to move up the wall.

Yeah.

I feel bad now when I have these 20-foot artificial walls with huge handholds and I can't even get up half the time.

But like the artificial walls can be really challenging.

Really?

I mean, yeah. So a lot of pro climbers train indoors. Like I train at a climbing gym in order to prepare for my outdoor climbs. I even built a gym at my house.

No way.

Yeah.

That's cool.

It's fun.

That's really cool.

It's like no excuses. Every room in my house has like some sort of training equipment. Do I live in a gym or is my house turning into a gym? That's amazing.

That's really cool.

Work-life balance.

What's the key to being one of the greatest climbers? Like what's the principles and the fundamentals? I'm hearing footwork, I'm hearing total body core, everything, but what's like the real principles?

I mean, not to be cheesy or anything, but I think just being really passionate about it. In my opinion, you can succeed at whatever it is that you really will yourself to want. And if you love what you're doing, then just naturally you're going to do it a lot and put in the hours of practice and engage your mind and your body and perform optimally. And I love the climbing community so much. just this interconnected nature of it around the world. Like, I could go to Spain and have this Spanish family that I connect with through this overarching passion. Or I could go to Madagascar or South America, wherever it is, there's always this climbing community that you can connect with because you're both, you're all doing something that you really love.

Wow.

I think passion, in my opinion, is the number one ingredient to succeeding in anything.

Yeah.

Is it more male dominated or female dominated?

It's definitely male dominated. And the background of climbing, I think it's just like the background of climbing was traditionally many men were doing it. And now there are definitely a lot more women getting into climbing, which is like, Amazing. I love to see it, and especially on the gym front.

Yeah.

Climbing has been exploding, and it seems from the gym industry, like gyms are popping up in urban locations around the world. But the transition from outdoor, from indoor climbing to outdoor climbing is still like, I think more men are making that transition than women. But as I go to more popular, what's called like sport climbing areas, then I'm seeing more women. I think that women just need to see other women doing it and be like, oh yeah, that's like, why not? And that's why I feel strongly about first female ascent and first ascent in general. It's like you don't need to be held back. If I see that a woman has done something, I can be so much more inspired and connected to that than if I see a male has done it, because Maybe it's less relatable, but the beauty of climbing too is that women and men are both capable of achieving the same heights. The same climb, so to speak, yeah.

I almost feel like women have more of an advantage because of, you know, being tinier, smaller, and the strength in that size, right?

Yeah, on certain climbs, certainly. Like women have a tendency to have really good technique. I mean, obviously men too, but yeah, and like hip mobility, climbing is a strength to body weight ratio sport. So the stronger you are, then that's really good. But you also want to be in total like body control and awareness. So it's kind of like, I mean, in your ideal state, it's like a dance with the wall.

Did you take dance lessons?

I used to do ballet and I did figure skating. I competed in figure skating and that was kind of like, so I'm dual citizen with Canada and like my whole family is like, skating, skiing, winter sports. So I'm the only person in my family who climbs, actually.

Wow. Did figure skating help you to be a better climber?

I think ballet and figure skating gave me good body awareness. Like another sport that has a really good crossover is gymnastics.

Did you do gymnastics too, or no?

I didn't, no, but I love watching the gymnastics.

Can you do backflips and everything?

Uh, no. Sadly.

No.

I don't know, I've tried blackouts.

Have you ever tried to do just like a pull-up challenge? Pull-up challenges? Just like, how many can you do?

Yeah, yeah, we do a lot of pull-ups in training. A lot of times our weighted pull-ups because that's the quicker way to gain strength.

Like holding like 100 pounds between your legs, it's crazy. How many pull-ups can you do just free body?

In a row?

Yeah.

Probably around like 30 to 40.

Wow, it's amazing.

Yeah.

It's inspiring. You've gotta be able to do that though, you need that endurance.

Yeah, you need, so something that I installed at my house, for instance, is a treadmill, and that's like a treadmill, but it's a rotating wall. So you could climb like thousands of feet in one session without actually vertically gaining.

It's a wall that moves and has- It moves, yeah.

And then you can set different climbs on it. and you can take off holds, change them out, and then you can change the speed at which the motor goes. That's amazing. From a notch of like one to ten. So that's something that I use a lot.

That's cool.

And why it's like helpful at my house. And then I have like a hangboard, which is where you hang from your fingertips. Normally with like added weight or train. What I'm currently training right now is one arm pull-ups.

You don't?

I'm like, Close, but I can't put.

My finger on it. With like, fingertips.

I can do it when I'm, yeah, I do it on a climbing hold because that's the most applicable.

What about if you just grabbed a bar? Do you think you could do it?

I think that I'd be close. I think that I can hold the locks, which is like holding certain positions, but I'm too weak still to do a full one.

You're too weak? How is that even possible?

I'll blame it on the boot. It's added weight.

There you go. There you go. How do you manage stress levels when you're in a difficult situation on a wall?

Yeah.

So I've definitely been in really stressful situations where one time on one of my first big walls, I was climbing and we got to a point where we got off route and we had to untie and basically make a decision of if we were gonna simul-climb our way to the top.

What's that mean?

Simoclimb is when you're connected to your climbing partner and if you fall, then you both go down.

Oh my gosh.

But there's the off chance of the other climber being able to hold you both. But it's not likely. And this is not a scenario that I would normally get into, but it's just the extreme situation of what climbing brings you to the moment. And it was because we were doing a big wall and on big walls, normally you have to get to the top after a certain point because you can't rappel down. the entirety of a route. Oh my gosh. And so when you get to the summit, then there's normally a repel line that you go down or it's like a hike and we had about like 100 vertical feet left in front of us and we couldn't find any sort of gear to secure it to. The rock was super malleable and loose. And then the other option was to continue to the top just like free solo. And free soloing is not something that I do on a regular basis. Like I'm actually quite not in favor of free soloing. Our community has lost a lot of people, and it's also, if you fall, it's a mathematical certainty that you die. Yeah, exactly. But in this situation, it was kind of like, this is our reality. So in that moment, there's no room for thinking about what could go wrong, because that's just all of this negative energy that's going to be compounded. and make that chance more likely. So you have to really, like, I had to just focus on my breath and be like, I'm getting to the top and just, like, think positively and channel all of my concentration and energy towards climbing and reaching the summit.

And, and how high up were you at this point?

We're about, like, a thousand feet.

Thousand feet.

So you did free solo or you didn't? Yeah, we had to free solo. And this is, like, one of those situations where, like, Risk mitigation of fear and irrational fear, rational fear. This was rational fear to have of I can't fall. And then also navigating loose rock. And this was in the Dolomites in Italy.

How steep is this?

This is pretty vertical.

It's vertical.

Yeah, and I was climbing and my left hand and my left foot broke. And I could feel the weight of this rock just fall into this blank wisp of darkness and it's like, kind of like this mind-body convergence of I just kind of like, I think I tapped into that flow state of just getting to the top.

Wait a minute. Your left hand and left foot broke. What do you mean?

Like, the rock broke.

The rock broke, yeah. So you're climbing and it's like the epic movie scene where it just falls back and you're hanging from one arm.

You're like, ah.

Yeah.

And you're 100 feet from the top, 1,000 feet up. Yeah, that's crazy. If the other hand would have broke as well, you'd be dead. That's it. Shut up.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

So wait a minute. There was two options. You could free solo, or you could do the other one, which was- Simul.

Climb, which is being connected to each other.

But if one person falls, then you both die.

Right.

I mean, if the other person can't-.

If they can't hold it, but if you're vertical, who's gonna be able to hold it? It's gonna be difficult. Oh my gosh. So you both decided to freeze solo.

Yeah, it was kind of like, you know, in climbing, this is a really rare situation. Like that's happened to me. That was probably one of the most extreme situations that I've been in in climbing. But you have to just confront what the reality in front of you is sometimes and make decisions based on, I will always make the most safe decision. And that's why this scenario was so rattling to me, because I don't free solo and we kind of, we had to in that situation. And it's kind of like you have to make do with what you have.

Could you not have gone back down?

It would have been really, yeah, not really on this particular climb.

1,000 feet down, like it's really hard to do that, right?

Yeah, so, yeah.

Can't rappel down, like from that point.

Not, no. Normally when you're on a big wall, it's hard to bail after a certain point.

Really?

Because you go through a lot of terrain that's really divergent and in the Dolomites particularly, in somewhere like Yosemite, you can always like bail down. You don't have to get to the top. You can get back down or more vertical, like clean faces. You can do that, but... Not here. Certain mountains, you have to kind of like, once you're in it, you're in it. And you have to commit.

And you know that going into it, like there's no coming down after 500 feet or whatever, right? After a certain terrain. So you know going into this climb that like, we have to make it to the top.

Yeah, it was also nearing nighttime and so like you want to get to the top to get off of the actual mountain.

So how long were you guys, I guess, climbing until you, are failing until you had to make this decision.

Yeah, we didn't fall there. We just were trying to find like points of security like a bolt or somewhere we could put a piece of equipment. Like a friend or a cam is what it's called and that's like a... A bolt. A device, yeah, that you use for trad climbers, use that. And you put this device into a fissure and there's different sizes that match up with the different size of the slot in the rock and that is just as safe as a bolt if you know what you're doing and how to pitch it.

It ensures you.

Yeah, exactly. If the bell you'd be hanging. Yeah. But when you're on really malleable rock that could break. It's not secure.

Yeah, there's no way to know. Holy cow. Okay, so how long were you thinking, like you can't find a space to lock in or to plug in, whatever it is. How long is that until you had to make a decision either way?

Yeah, probably more. Under an hour, for sure.

So you're trying to find a thing for an hour?

Yeah, 'cause sometimes you can just get lost on like a particular cliff face. If it's big and with a lot of the climbs and the dolomites, like it's not that clear of the path and a lot is root finding and like the hardest part of our climb, the physically and technically most challenging, was earlier on in the day. And we got through that part quite quickly. But then the more adventurous aspect of it, which actually is where stuff gets really dangerous, was where we ended up getting to the summit at about like 9:00 p.m. and having to sleep at the top that night.

Wow.

Unprepared.

Unprepared, no tent or anything.

He was hailing. Yeah, it was really cold. It was like probably the coldest night of my life.

So are you hanging from your rope for this hour? You're holding on to the side of the rock for an hour?

Like, yeah, well, so like we were at the last anchor that we saw. Uh huh. And so an anchor is like, you are secure. Yeah, so you can hang.

Yeah, so you can hang.

Like holding on. You don't feel like, you don't feel like you're going to fall. Be like searching on the rock while traversing around. Wow. But yeah, so this is like not to scare you because this is like, I've been climbing for 20 years and this has happened once. Wow. But I guess the point being like, there are extreme circumstances that if you are pushing your envelope in outdoor climbing, sometimes you face extreme. Sure. risk. And sometimes you face risk that actually isn't risk, and it's more like you're high up off your last protection piece, and it seems scary to let go and fall, but you're actually going to be totally fine. And that's where I would say that I classify, like, rational fear and irrational fear. So, like, that you can get down to the root of, like, why am I scared of falling? And maybe that's because the irrational fear would be. It's just like a scary Airfall.

Yeah.

And then the rational fear would be like, well, there's this huge ledge beneath me, and I could break. my leg, then it's like, yeah, you have like a right to be scared. And so it's a lot about like choices and trusting your gear, trusting your climbing partner, trusting yourself. And not thinking about negative circumstances. Like sometimes you just have to act.

So you got 100 feet to go.

Back to this. About 100 feet to go.

You're like, okay, we're gonna freeze solo. That means you unclip from everything.

Yeah, you coil the rope and carry it.

You carry it up. But as you're looking up to this top, a thousand feet up, and you're seeing, okay, I'm about to free solo this. Do you see the route you're going to take? Like, do you see it before you take it, or is it just one step at a time looking for the next hold?

Yeah, so like this last stretch of the climb was actually really easy terrain. So we knew that we were capable. It's just like the rock was really loose. and finding the right way that's going to be like the most solid rock. And also, you don't want to get off route, but you don't really know where the route is. So you're just kind of like navigating the sea of limestone.

But you can feel different holds, like it's sturdy holds for you.

Yeah.

You feel it. It's not like there's nothing.

So kind of like with professional skiers or professional surfers, professional rock climbers, you learn how to read rock faces. so I can look up at a cliff and see the most accessible way to get to the top.

Wow.

And that's based on what protrusions in the rock you see, where you see different angles, curvatures, you just kind of become an expert at reading that because that's what you're doing all the time.

Wow. And so when your left hand and left foot broke off and you're hanging, did you have a fear that you were gonna die then, or was it this sense of calm you got this.

Yeah, I know. This was one of my first big wall experiences and I was definitely freaking out for a moment. And what was a really big turning point for me was the point that I was like, all of the, like whatever I want to say to my climbing partner, whatever, like blame or anxiety or negativity that I feel about this situation, he's in the exact same situation. He can't help me. Only I can help me get out of this. And that's by being in control of myself. So it's kind of like on a more micro level, like negative energy and negative thoughts and doubt doesn't get you anywhere. The only way to actually progress up the mountain or the climb or whatever it is is like by thinking positively, by thinking about what you can do to get out of a bad situation and thinking like forward. So, I mean, that was kind of like the situation that had to be in control.

What's your thought process before going into a big climb or a first ascent? What do you visualize the day before, the morning of, and throughout the entire climb?

So before a big wall, something that I really like to do is laying out everything that's in my pack. So like if I need my sleeping bag or a sleeping mat and like my lunch for on the wall, normally I'll bring like, I actually make my own own bars. So I'm allowing like some bars and like beef jerky or turkey jerky. And I normally crave like salty foods on the wall, not sugary. Especially if you're doing something like alpine, 'cause it's cold and you kind of want like heartier stuff. And then like your climbing gear, I'll always lay out like my different layers that I'm bringing. So like a soft shell, a down jacket, a Gore-Tex shell. And then I'll put it all in and then it's like, okay, I'm ready to go. And then it's super exciting because normally you start super early. Or like this summer I was doing what was called the Canadian Trilogy, which were three of the most challenging big walls in the Canadian Rockies. And I wanted to do the first female ascent of them in the second ascent. And some of the days were like 18 plus hour days. And so you're kind of like- you-.

Didn'T sleep on the wall.

No, I was doing them all and I wanted to do them each in a day. So we would leave at like 5 or 5:30 in the morning, hike for about four hours, get to the base of the climb, then you're on the climb for about like 12 hours.

Wow.

And then you come back down and then you're hiking out into like the early dawn. You belay down or you-- you- rappel down, yeah.

It's called belay or rappel.

Rappel, yeah.

What's belay?

Belay is when you're belaying your climber, so the climber is going up, then you have your belayer who's supporting you.

Got it, got it. Okay, cool. This is crazy. This is a whole nother world.

I mean, yeah, like we have a little, I mean, climbing's growing, but there are still a lot of people who are unfamiliar of even the fact that climbing is a profession.

Yeah.

And so what do you think about on the climb? Because you map everything out, you lay it out, you prepare that, but what's the thought process? Are you, daydreaming? Are you just present in the moment and just thinking of the next positioning for your hand? Are you thinking about family? I mean, what's going through your mind for 18 hours a day? Because you gotta think about something.

Do you sing to yourself?

Do you listen to podcasts? What is it?

You know, it's interesting because it really depends what portion of the climb I'm on. On the most difficult parts of a climb, I'm really present and I'm thinking about what each next movement. And it could be like, I'm narrating to myself, okay, right hand, turn, undercling, left hand, grab this, shift your hip, move your foot, like play by play. And then if I'm on a more easier section, then I'm, yeah, my mind can kind of wander a little bit, but I'm probably less in tune with like that flow state of when I'm optimally just like firing and I'm only thinking in the present, my mind and my body are kind of like, converge together. And I think that that happens a lot when it's like the like eight hour mark and you've been climbing and you hiked before that for four hours and you're just like fatigued, but something is like pushing you through it and you're just like in it. And then a lot of big wall climbing is also systems. So setting up your belay system to help your partner or like hauling up your bag or organizing your rope, like there's a lot of management that goes into it. So sometimes you're like thinking like this damn rope is tangled and I'm like hanging here and I'm just like, why is it windy? Like there's all sorts of things that you can be thinking of. But I also sometimes like kind of like have little mantras that go through my head.

What are those?

If I'm through like you can, you can or like hold on, hold on. Something like that.

Don't let go, let go. Just let go, relax.

Let go, let go. Yeah, no.

Hold on.

Hold on.

You can.

You can.

You'll just say it over and over.

Or like, just go, just go, just go. Wow.

Do you say it out loud or internally? Kind of like internally.

Kind of like internally, yeah.

Yeah.

Who taught you the power of mantras?

I think it was just like trial by error, like trial by fire. I don't, I haven't really learned any formal coaching on mantras, but I really do believe in listening to the universe. And I think that if you open yourself up to what the universe is trying to say to you, then there's this timing and process to life that makes sense. If you let it make sense. So everything in my life, I mean, I feel like when I look back, I'm like, oh, that makes sense. The timing or the situation that that negative experience led me to a positive experience. It's kind of interesting. I think that makes me less anxious if I just trust the process. Even right now, I have this air boot on because I have a fractured fibula. And it's like when I did that, it was after, I mean, I was training for the New York City Marathon and I was on a climbing trip through Europe and then Jordan and then back to Europe. And so I had this pain in my leg and I was like, I don't know why my leg is so painful, but I'm just going to keep charging on. And I was like hiking with a heavy pack and climbing and and training for running. Yeah, training for the marathon, like not listening to my body. But then I got to Germany and I got an MRI and I learned that I had a stress fracture. So I was like, oh, good thing that my pain tolerance isn't negligible at least. But then I was given this air boot and I arrived to this series of like a conference in Miami with the International Women's Forum and I had all of these kind of like blossoming business ideas. that I needed to be in one place to actually take advantage of and organize, I think, just give my life a little room to breathe and be home and get grounded again. So then I saw this air boot as life's way of saying slow down and listen to your body and just be still. And I think now I'm in a much healthier mindset than I was when I was not stopping traveling because I was like, on the road for like about four months straight, up to this point of like, okay, now you're gonna like.

Chill.

Yeah, like.

One place.

Come inward and get your life. Just like let it chill a little, be home. My house is in Boulder, but I'm like never there. I love Boulder. I have a cat who's like, Hey, welcome to my house.

When you have a good cat, that can take care of itself. It is like a dog. It is chill.

She's super personable. That's the best.

What's the greatest challenge you feel like you've had to overcome in your life?

Oh, man. I think one big, challenging chapter of my life was I was a full-time student at Columbia, and I was also managing my professional career as a climber.

Living in New York City?

Living in New York City, yeah. and I love New York City. It's probably my favorite city in the world, but it's not like a city where you can really climb outside a lot. I was traveling about, like, Thursday evenings through Monday evenings. I would be, like, in Beijing for a signing for Adidas or, like, in Japan for a competition, just, like, kind of, like, always living on the plane half of my week and doing my schoolwork on the plane, but also, like, I think trying to manage being a full-time student while also maintaining my career and not letting my physical performance slip too much, but also having to recognize the back seat that climbing was going to take for this particular time frame was kind of mentally and physically challenging. Because I think, like, as athletes particularly, we're really hard on our bodies and on ourselves. Like, if we're not getting the physical performance that we want out of ourselves, then I had to learn how to be just like kinder to myself and be like, it's okay. You have a lot going on, but you don't really like notice that in the moment. So you're like, why am I not performing at this level that I was last year? And you don't really comprehend like the obvious, like, oh, maybe it's because you're like doing this, this, this and this. on top of it all. So having graduated from school, I felt like I had this big weight off my shoulders to really just focus in on my climbing career again, which was nice. And I'm so thankful that I went to school though, because I grew up in a family that, like, academics were number one. And climbing was something that my parents were really supportive of me doing that because that's what I was passionate about. but they never provided any sort of like, they weren't like, if you don't win Nationals, that's like, you're terrible type thing.

They don't see the care as much.

You need to get straight A's at school. And then you can take off time to go climbing. But they really saw this academics and athletics balance converge really well. And so I think that what I'm really thankful that they pushed on me is just the importance of putting my best self forward. And like, my dad was always like, have fun, try your hardest and be safe. And that was like the three things that was like, have fun, try your hardest. Didn't matter if you like won or lost, as long as you put your best self forward and then like be safe was like parent denominator.

That's great. Yeah, always be safe, right? Well, who was more influential in your life growing up, mom or dad?

I would say that my mom and I had a closer relationship. Just we are probably more similar. My dad played football and was really into watching hockey games. I grew up going to the Capitals games. We had season tickets. I love hockey.

My buddy played with him for 10, 11 seasons. Brooks Laich.

Oh, yeah. I know of him.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm a big hockey fan. And then when I was in New York, the Rangers were like the team that I'd root for, but the Caps were always, I mean, when they won the Stanley Cup. I was like, this is amazing. Crazy, yeah. But my mom actually learned how to belay me, so she would come to the gym and belay me when I was training, and then my coach would tell me what to do and she would be there to support.

It's amazing.

But I never once shared a contract with my parents, nor asked them for any professional help, and I think that that was a little bit of me proving myself in this niche sport that When I grew up, professional climbing wasn't something that was what I aspired to do because professional climbing wasn't really a thing. It was professional climbers, people that I looked up to lived in their vans in Yosemite and wore dirt bags. And that's not to knock that culture. It's just they weren't sponsored with well-supported climbing. contracts and living wherever they wanted and traveling around the world.

Yeah.

That's kind of been like a new thing.

What has brought that to, I guess, to brands to be more invested in.

Yeah.

What is that? Is that different content than people are putting out there? Is that movies? Is that...

I think that that's access to content. Like we now have so many platforms to share content. Yeah. And also, I mean, the gym industry is definitely leading this fitness trend of climbing is this social form of exercise that's a really great all body sport. Climbing is like this gateway to the outdoors that is similar to skiing. Families go on ski vacations and you can do a destination climbing vacation. That's cool. You can bring your family to Spain and go climbing or go to Yosemite. And then also, I think it's just like people who are spokespersons, spokespeople of the sport of climbing doing their job of like trying to reach a broader audience. Like for my career, I just really want to inspire more people to know about what climbing is. And even if they don't climb, just like see my career as like, you can do whatever you're passionate about. And even if it's not a professional already, you can create that path and.

Make a living off of it.

Yeah, exactly.

Because you're making a full-time living doing your passion, even though it's not like this popular big mainstream sport or activity or you call it a sport?

Yeah, sport.

Even if it's outdoor and there's no like competition, it's still.

Yeah, because there is competition, but yeah, adventure sport is really the category of climbing. Climbing, I mean my contracts are what put me through Columbia.

Wow.

Now, yeah, you can be a climber and make a good living off of the sport like any other I think like high-end elite athlete, but it's definitely a new discipline of, I mean, it's a new sport. And it's, we have really purest roots and there's sides of climbing that are really anti-corporate sponsors. And then there's like a new age that's really accepting of like, we want to grow our sport. We accept these bigger companies being involved because that means more exposure and more support to giving back and conservation and our nonprofits. Like, the more you educate people to care about the environment because they're being interactive with it, then I think the more inclined they are to protect it as well. And as a climber, like, we naturally have this affinity for the outdoor spaces and for conservation, because that's our natural playground.

Yeah.

Wow. Do you have a lot of friends who've died from the sport?

I do.

Like close friends or?

Yeah, yeah. We've definitely suffered some significant losses in our community and, and I mean, there are certain people that I've lost that have really rattled me in ways that have either been close friends or just people that I've like, looked up to and seen as like, like, Dean Potter, for instance. His death, he was always known as, like, the safe and calculated climber, even though what he was doing was so extreme. And then I think, like, he died base jumping, but it really put the climbing community at, like, this point of, like, no one's indestructible and we're all mortal. And I think that that's, that's really my. My issue with free soloing is that it just takes one mistake and like, that's it.

How many people are free soloing a year?

Not many. A very small percentage.

20 is this 100?

I think you'd probably need to do more like a percentage of climbers and that's probably like 1%.

1% yeah.

Of like, you know, like Alex Honnold, obviously probably a lot of, People have seen Free Solo. That's such an anomaly.

Yeah.

Like, even Tommy Caldwell in the film, who was my hero in the film, spoke so candidly about what free soloing is. And he's like one of the great all-time legends in climbing, but he doesn't free solo because, I mean, if I fall, it's okay. Maybe I break something. But the having gone through personal loss from like family to friends, I know that like I don't want to put my family through my own passing.

Yeah.

I want to be there and I, I, I've just like seen firsthand what loss can do to a family. And that's really hard to comprehend, like why I would selfishly decide to do that to, yeah, to my friends and family.

Yeah.

'Cause you're already at risk, but you're just taking calculated risks and being as safe as you can.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Which like after that story I told you, people were probably like, yeah, right. But like that was one time in like, you know, my like 20 years of climbing and I've definitely had like risky situations that were maybe similar, but I think a lot is like knowing how to use your equipment, being as expert as you can about your systems and knowledgeable and why, like with climbing, there's like this endless potential of growth and wisdom that you can get from the mountains and for climbing that you stay humble because, I mean, the mountain doesn't care, like what's gonna happen.

Doesn't have feelings.

Yeah.

No emotion.

No emotion coming from it.

It's a rock. Solid rock. Now you lost, you've lost many friends, but you said you also lost People in your family, your dad passed away?

Yeah, he had a stroke in 2014 and never woke up from it.

And what was that like for you and your family? And did it change your path down your career in a different way? Or did it just confirm to go down it in a deeper way?

I think when I lost my dad, it brought a lot more awareness to being present in the moment and just appreciating the people in my life. I had just gone on a trip from, we drove from Montreal back to DC where I grew up, my dad and I. And then I took off to, I was taking off to Wyoming and I was going there on a climbing trip. And what was really interesting was that it was like a clear bluebird day and my flight, he brought me to the airport and my flight was canceled and it was delayed 24 hours. And he was like, Hey, Dad, can you pick me up? And they came and picked me up at the airport. We went and spent the night, watched the Kings versus the Rangers, is the year that they were in the playoffs together. Got burgers. Then the next morning, he brought me to the airport and I took off to Wyoming. And it was like, then two weeks later, my mom called me from the ambulance. And was like, Dad just had a stroke. And I was out climbing. I drove straight to the airport and I was like, I'll be there for when he wakes up. and there was like this week in the hospital just waiting, not knowing what's gonna happen. And then he never did come to from that, but it's like moments like that where I look back and I'm like, that's so interesting that why was my flight canceled? Or like, you can kind of like think about that and then no matter what you believe, you can just like see moments as like having appreciation for them. and I think that in my life over the years, I've definitely fine-tuned like, I have a lot of comfort and self-confidence through climbing, and that's, like, a part of my identity, and it's given me a lot of direction with my life. But then appreciating, like, who my friends are, who are the closest to me are. And my brother, my mom, and I have a really close relationship, and. some of my cousins, my aunts and uncles also, like, were, they're all in Canada. So that's kind of like where I call home when I say, like, I'm going back for Christmas. I go to Canada. My mom's in Montreal, and we grew up at the house in Montreal. But I think just, like, maintaining contact with the relationships that you have and not just, like, taking people for granted is important.

Yeah.

And that's something that, I mean, Even as the years go by, I become more appreciative of it because once you're, I mean, you know, like once you're in a more public sphere, you have to kind of filter like the intention of people sometimes. And I think that that makes me more appreciative of the grounding, like loving forces in my life. And like that's where I feel the most whole.

Wow. Would you say that was one of the biggest lessons you took away from his death or?

Yeah, I think that appreciating the moment and being aware that nothing is certain. Like, things can change in a second.

Was he a healthy guy? Was he?

Yeah, there was no lead up. I mean, it was just like this, he was at the coffee table in our dining room. with my mom, my brother, and then he fell over and the ambulance came actually right away. We lived in Old Town Alexandria, Virginia.

Like 10 minutes away or something, yeah.

Super quick. But it was a hemorrhagic stroke, I think is what it's called. And there was like excessive bleeding in his brain, which shot all neurological functioning.

And you saw him a couple weeks before he's healthy, he worked out, or he ate pretty healthy or He was.

Like big, he was Italian. So he was like, oh, he's throwing the stakes on the girl and like probably ate way too much red meat.

Gotcha.

Like there were probably like health concerns that you could look at in retrospect. But from our state, everything was fine.

Yeah.

Seemed fine, yeah.

Yeah.

But he was really stressed. And that's another thing is like, stress. He was running his own business and like, I think that stress is such a killer. Like, It's, I mean, literally, you know?

I had a friend on a couple weeks ago, Robert Greene, who came out with this, a new book, and it took him five years to complete the book, and he had a stroke when he finished it. And he says a lot of it he thinks was due to the stress that he put himself through, 'cause he put, he had so much pressure that he created for himself to have this perfect book, you know, and his legacy. he worked out every day, he ate very clean, but the stress he thinks is what caused the stroke, which is a reminder and a wake-up call for us to never allow the stress to ruin and run our lives and to manage the stress and us being in control of it. Oh, yeah. And I think it's our responsibility to be aware of it. If it's happening for long periods of time, we really get to reassess and reflect and be aware on how we're going to shift it. and take ownership over that stress level through meditation or through sleeping more, through re-shifting our focus on what we're, you know, what we're stressing on.

So I'm such a proponent of sleep. Like, I I could not believe more in the necessity of eight hours.

Sleep is crucial. I was just listening to an interview this morning with LeBron James on Tim Ferriss's show, actually. and he was like, I need eight, nine, 10 hours of sleep, otherwise I'm gonna nap throughout the day. Because as an athlete, you need to be focused mentally and your body needs to recover, obviously, but you need to have the mental clarity. And if you are lacking sleep, you're not gonna have the mental clarity.

Yeah, and that's the key. And then I'm like sick, like boom, if I don't get enough sleep, if.

It'S like more than two days, I'm like, I'm out. You're sick for a few days. Yeah, you need to recover. Your body's shutting down. Now, when you're on the side of a mountain sleeping, 'cause you do some climbs where you have to bring like a whole tent. Yeah, a portaledge.

What's it called?

A portaledge. Portaledge.

Not a porta potty. Not a porta potty. No, you have to like figure out.

How to go to the bathroom up there. How do you even do that?

If you're with someone else and you're- yeah, I mean, first of all, you get to know your climbing partner really well. If you- so, You want me to break it down?

Break it down to sleeping on the side of a mountain.

Okay, great. Where it's like, yeah, so the Portaledge is like a four-foot-by-six-foot basically like a hammock that you set up and you secure on three points on the wall. Three points of security, ideally. And you sleep with a harness on. I normally take the leg loops off my harness, so it's like a waistband. And you sleep in the sleeping bag, like, I've-- 1,000 feet up. 1,000 feet up. It's not ever rolled off, but you know, like, you have to secure it so it's flat out from the wall. But yeah, when you wake up, you like look down and you've got like thousands of feet of cliff below you.

Crazy. Do you sometimes think when you wake up, like, I'm in my bed in Colorado, you have to remind yourself-- I.

Never sleep that well on the portaledge. You're like just in and out, constantly. Yeah, a little bit like, I mean, it's not comfortable. Sleeping on a hammock isn't that comfortable. You kind of wake up and you're like, ugh, I can't really move around or have this illusion that you're falling, but you're not falling. But the views are amazing. The views are totally worth it.

Yeah.

Wow.

So the reason that you do that is because when you're doing a big wall, and if it's over a certain amount of feet, then maybe you need multiple days to do it. in order to successfully do a big wall from the bottom to the top, you have to do everything consecutively.

Crazy.

So you sleep and then you continue on. Maybe you're doing eight to 12 hour days of climbing and then sleeping on the portaledge, eight to 12 hours of climbing, making your way consecutively.

That's crazy.

It's not crazy.

You're in it.

You're in it.

Yeah.

Like, from the outside. What you do is crazy to me. But from the outside, I could never do it.

I know, just the side of a mountain like that, that's nuts. What's your vision moving forward with all this? Doing these crazy ascents all over the world and being a global citizen and being a female championing this mindset and this vision that you have, what's your mission?

That's a great, that's a great, Reflective question because I would love to do a first ascent on every continent around the world.

I think that a first time for any human.

Yeah.

Not man or woman, but anyone.

Yeah.

First ascent on every continent.

Yeah. So that's one. One of my, like, more, like, endemic climbing goals. I think that climbing creates this space for exploration and. And connectedness. that I just went to the Middle East for my first time in October. And living and growing up in this Western world, we are fed kind of like these ideas of what other parts of the world look like. And I think that it's not until you actually travel and immerse yourself in a different culture that you see so many human commonalities. And that is what enables us to be better global citizens. Like, you learn about the world through traveling and through experiences. And so with climbing, I'd like to travel to more places and really bring climbing to places that may not actually have climbing already. And then also educate more people about what our sport is. So as an ambassador and spokesperson for our sport as it grows into all these different spaces, in the Olympics, in the outdoor space, try and encourage people to conserve and protect our environment. And I work with the Women's Sports Foundation. I'm on the board. And the whole concept is equal pay and equal play for women in sports. So bringing more attention. I've also got this series that I do that's 10 a.m. on a Tuesday.

I've seen that yet.

Yeah.

So each Tuesday, it runs on outside TV and then I post it to my YouTube channel too. But the whole concept was like bring people into my world a little bit more and provide this behind the scenes glimpse of what my life looks like on a day to day basis.

Yeah.

It's pretty cool, yeah.

Yeah, I like creating content. A lot of what I do is doing video projects and working with other people. and I don't really know beyond that. It's kind of like what's exciting and intimidating is that if you asked me five years ago, what are you gonna be doing today in 2018? I have no idea. I had no idea I'd have the awesome opportunity to be talking with you.

So you're present to what's happening every week, every month, but also excited about potential in the future too, yeah.

Yeah, I think there's a certain roadmap that you can have that gives you a sense of direction. But then you can't really put every serum pin in the road or stoplight that's gonna go.

That's cool. Is there any question you would like to answer that maybe people usually don't ask you that you wish they did?

That's a good question.

Or anything you think we should know about you that maybe most people don't know about?

Oh, well most people know, but my favorite color is pink.

Okay.

I also have a superstition. I always have to paint my nails PINK before I like an achievement that I wanted to do. And I mean, I imagine that I'm a dual citizen with Canada. A lot of people don't know that actually, because I competed for the US team.

Smart move.

Yeah.

Thank you. The Canadians didn't think so. Well, I guess I could talk a little bit about my next year's plans. Like I have a trip through South America in the spring and then I have a I have a climb in Central Africa that I want to accomplish in July and a climb up El Cap in Yosemite in the fall. And then kind of like these other sporadic trips throughout the year, but that's kind of like on the horizon.

Are these part of the first ascent in every continent? Is this part of that?

Yeah, so well in Central Africa it would be a second ascent and first female ascent. And in Bolivia and Argentina it would be a series of firsts. first ascents and some first female ascents and just overall exploration. There isn't much climbing in Bolivia that exists already. So something that I think that climbing has this amazing capability of improving and bolstering the ecotourism landscape of underdeveloped regions in the world. So like we did that in Indonesia. I did a sea kayaking and climbing trip where the whole mission was to develop the ecotourism industry. and create an alternative for the economic infrastructure to counter the mining industry that was really destructing the natural environment and the natural community there. So we went to like rural islands in Indonesia, like Sumba and Malo, and it was a really moving project to be a part of. So I'd like to replicate that, that kind of like that trip in different areas around the world.

That's cool. How can people support you and your mission and follow you?

Yeah, I mean, I'm on Instagram, @SashaDJosephine, just my name. Stay in tune with the content. Normally, if I have a call to action, I'll throw it up on my website. It's just myname.com or on social media. I try and keep that current. Yeah, the Instagram is inspiring.

You got a lot of amazing photos and videos there, so make sure you guys check that out. We'll link it all up here. Final couple questions for you. This one's called the Three Truths. And if it was your last day many years from now on earth, and you got to choose the day that you got to leave. Okay. You get to choose the day, any day in the future, but you got to finally pick a day. And you get to leave behind three things you know to be true about all of your experiences in life. I call it the Three Truths. These are the lessons that you would share with the world.

Like philosophies.

Yeah.

Your lessons, your truths. And People wouldn't have access to any other content that you've ever created. This is all they would have access to are these three truths.

Oh, great.

What would you say are yours? What would you share with all of us?

Kindness. I think that, like, no matter who you are, no matter, like, what you've accomplished, just human kindness is so important, and that's what connects us all. Passion, that's, like, such a driving force. my life. And what I think that no matter if it's sports or music or arts, like just find your passion and live your life by that. And I think, gosh, third one of like my lasting legacy, perseverance, no matter what sort of like doubt you're faced with or negativity, roadblocks, like you can always achieve what you want if you will yourself the most. And I think that like the universe is on your side. So persevere and believe it and be a good person. So yeah, kindness, passion, and perseverance.

I like this. Well, I gotta acknowledge you, Sasha, for a moment because it's been inspiring to watch your journey over the last couple of years. I just feel like you're constantly showing up consistently. and doing and challenging yourself. You're not just doing the easy thing, you're doing the hard thing. And you're inspiring people through your message. You're inspiring all humans, but also women who maybe feel like there are certain challenges in their life they don't feel like they can overcome. You're helping them and inspiring them to do that in their own life. So I acknowledge you for all that. And I acknowledge you for constantly Paving the way and doing the challenging things and being a good person and. And living with passion, because I feel it. and it's inspiring. And thank you for being here. I appreciate this. I'm glad we got to make this finally happen.

Me too. No, thank you so much for having me here.

Of course.

Such a pleasure.

My final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

My definition of greatness is just loving what you do every day.

Sasha.

Yeah.

Appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you. Yeah, no, thank you.

And there you have it, my friends. I hope you enjoyed this all about the world championship mindset, how to overcome challenges, how to trust your intuition, how to face adversity head on to achieve what you want. This is a powerful example of how Sasha has been doing this in her life. over and over, constantly tackling new challenges, new obstacles that have never been done before, and she is doing them. And I hope you got some inspiration to apply this to your life with whatever you are going through right now. Make sure to share this with your friends, lewishouse.com/731 tag @SashaDeJulian as well. That's D-I-G-I-U-L-I-A-N. Let us know what you thought about this episode and interview, make sure to follow her journey as it is a very inspiring one. And to bring those back to the beginning, Helen Keller said, character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired and success achieved. And Marcus Aurelius said, you have power over your mind. not outside events. Realize this and you will find strength. As always, I love you so very much and you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.