767 Greg Louganis: Silence the Haters

This is episode number 767 with Olympic legend Greg Louganis. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur and each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Christopher Reeves said, a hero is an ordinary individual who finds the strength to persevere and endure in spite of overwhelming obstacles. John Quincy Adams said, patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish when welcome to this episode. We have the legendary Olympian Greg Louganis on the show who is one of the most decorated Olympic divers of all time. Arguably one of the greatest divers of all time. LGBT activist, humanitarian, author and designer who has won gold medals at the 1984 and 88 Summer Olympics on both the springboard and platform. He is the only male and the second diver in Olympic history to sweep the diving events in consecutive Olympic Games Games and in this interview we talk about his historical Olympic run and what it took to be a champion and the mindset of a champion. We talk about how Greg felt winning was needed in order to feel loved or being worth of love. Powerful insights there. We talked about how he handled having HIV when at the time it seemed like a death sentence. Also, the power of sharing your weakness to reveal your strength. This is a powerful episode. Make sure to share it with your friends. Lewishouse.com 767 tag myselfuishouse and tag Greg on Instagram as well to let us know what you enjoyed about this the most. The Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid has a bold design, a spacious interior with 232 horsepower and a 12.3-inch panoramic display to keep the adventure going and fit with the way you live. And with Sirius xm, every drive comes alive, bringing you closer to the music, the sports talk and podcasts that you love right in your vehicle or on the Sirius XM app. Every SiriusXM equipped Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid includes a three month trial, so the experience begins the moment you drive. Learn more@kia.com sportage-sport hybrid Kia movement that inspires this message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza from your local pizza place or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app to see your credit limit offer in Minutes subject to credit approval. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and more@applecard.com the best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers. That's why LinkedIn has the highest B2B ROAs of all online ad networks. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the. Just go to LinkedIn.com Lewis that's LinkedIn.com L E W I S Terms and conditions apply. Big thank you again to our sponsors today and I'm so excited about this one. Again, make sure to share with your friends. Let me know what you think over on Instagram. Take a screenshot of this podcast right now, post it over there so we can connect. And without further ado, let's dive into this with the one and the only Greg Louganis. Welcome, everyone, back to the School of Greatness podcast. We have a living legend in the house. Greg Louganis. Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it.

My pleasure.

You're one of the icons in the Olympics, greatest diver of all time. And you just had an incredible life story beyond, you know, being an Olympian, multiple gold medal winner. I'm still sad that you didn't compete in, what was it the 1980 Olympics.

Was not boycott was 1980. That was the Moscow Olympics.

So you were 16 when you did the first Olympics in 76, and you were just like, taking over the world by storm. You got a silver medal then, I think. Is that right?

I got a silver medal there. Sixteen years later then I was world champion two years later. Two years later.

And you should have won, like, two medals in eight. What was that like during that time? Where did you want to boycott? Or was it just like.

No, you just had to. Well, what happened? I mean, because I was one of the team captains for the diving team, and so the team captains from all the different sports got together and we were kind of addressing this because we were in D.C. and we were going to have a chance to talk to President Carter and all that. So it was our feeling that we had such a strong team in 1980 and swimming and so many other sports. So we wanted to go send one person into the opening and closing ceremonies and everybody stay back in protest, but go over there and kick ass, basically. So that was what we wanted. But our voices Were never heard because as soon as President Carter made his address, then the media was escorted out, and then we were able to give our views and let our voices be heard. Unfortunately, our voices weren't heard. But you live and learn. I kind of think back on it too, is that in some ways, it might have been a blessing for me.

Really? Why?

Because in 1980, diving was something I was good at. It wasn't something I was necessarily enjoying. Why weren't you diving? Well, because I was in theater. I was looking forward to pursuing my acting and getting going on that, whether it be New York or, you know, because most of it was theater.

So you were a dance major? Theater and dance major. Right. In college, yeah.

Yeah.

So this was your college years, actually. Yeah. 16. And then. Yes, you'd be 20.

21. Yeah, I was 20.

Interesting.

And so had they happened, had I been successful, I probably would have gone on.

Wow.

You know, and who knows? I mean, who really knows? You never know.

I just feel so bad for all the. The people that have their one chance. They train for 10 years, 20 years, for one moment.

I mean, the way that I like to explain it to people is when you think of an elite athlete, it's like a carton of milk. They have an expiration date.

Yeah.

And it's like if you go past that expiration date, you're out of luck. I mean, you missed that opportunity. And there were so many talented athletes that missed that opportunity that didn't make.

It the next in four years later. Right.

Yeah.

You were lucky to make it the next two Olympics.

Yeah.

Some people didn't make it at all, though.

Right, right.

Was there anyone else that you knew from the 1980 time that did come back and had a successful experience and were like, got their redemption type of moment?

I probably would. I'm not sure because he was. I think he was just coming up Rowdy Gains. Gotcha. I think Nancy Hogshead, there were a few individuals that kind of were able to hang in there and stick it out. But it also depended on the sport, too, because, I mean, if you're a gymnast who you have like a one year, two year window, I mean, on the women's side, young ladies are.

They're.

They're young.

That's devastating. That's gonna be so hard when that's your whole life's mission and then you just get kind of robbed of it.

Yeah.

What was the greatest lesson you learned about yourself during that time?

Greatest lesson at that time?

Yeah.

82.

In the 80s, when you. When you Got a taste of the Olympics. You get silver and you're like, okay, I'm gonna win the gold next time. And then, oh, I have to wait eight more years.

Yeah. You know, that was really, really tough. I mean, that pill to swallow. I wasn't sure if I. If I was really going to be able to keep motivated, stay training.

Right.

Yeah. Because, well, I had started diving with my coach, Ron O'.

Brien.

That's who I the. From 78 to 88. He was my coach. And the one thing that he was incredible at is really keeping me motivated. I mean, he devised games. I mean, we played games. It's like anything. You get good at what you practice. And so one of the games that we used to play was the 700 game on 10 meter platform. And I didn't like to do repeats of my dives. So if I could get out with just doing one apiece, then I was golden. So in order to break 700 on 10 meter platform, I had to do all 10 dives in the eight and a half range. And, you know, I had to average eight and a half.

Scoring eight and a half.

Scoring 8 and a half on all 10 dives. But the average.

So who was the judge? He was the judge. He was the judge.

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it was interesting because sometimes I was successful, sometimes I wasn't. And one time at one practice, it was gale force winds blowing into the platform and it was raining and all that. He said, okay, we're gonna play the 700 game. I'm like, oh, cool. So I get all warmed up and ready to go, and I start going and I got through. I was jumping back and forth over that eight and a half line and I was like, really, really close. And came at last dive and got it. I was like, oh, great. Awesome. I was successful. So packed my bag left, showed up the pool. The next day, my coach pulls me aside. Ron says, you know, you're the only one who got in the pool yesterday.

Wow.

And I was like, wow. You know, because you have to put yourself in diverse situations in order to be able to practice at a very high level so that you're prepared. So I always. What a lot of athletes, a lot of divers would look at as obstacles, I looked at it as opportunities. There was an opportunity to train in miserable weather. How successful can I be? It's not about perfection. Perfection's unobtainable. But how close can you get to that mark of perfection? Right.

Except that time you got all perfect tens. Right?

I did that a few times. But, yeah, you can always get better.

You can always get better.

Even still, I'd always say that we can come back to the pool, five minutes, five weeks, five months later, and the scores will change.

That's true. It's true. It's all based on what people are feeling that moment and what they saw and their perception.

Ken is really emotional. I've judged before, and it's like, in order to. You have to be touched, emotionally moved.

By the performance, not just the technicality of it. That's like 9.8. If it's a perfect, technically, 9.7, 9.8. But it's when you see the emotion probably of the diner. Right?

Yeah.

Or the moments and the.

The validity. I mean, I think there's some people who would argue about that, but, you know, I think it really is. I mean, the. You know, your tens are kind of more on the emotional side.

Yeah.

You know.

Wow.

That was awesome. Gotta be, right? Yeah.

Wow. It's amazing. How would you approach your dives at the Olympics versus at practice? Would you set up and prepare like it was an Olympics or World championship every single time you stepped on the platform?

Not every single time. Not every single time because there's different cycles of training. So sometimes you're just trying to get the numbers in, get reps. Yeah. Get the muscle memory of doing the dive, of the execution of the dive. There are other times where the focus is on the performance. You are incredibly focused. That was one thing that one of my earlier coaches, Dr. Sammy Lee, he taught me in preparation for my first Olympics in 76. He would always set up this situation. Okay, Klaus Dibiase is beating you by 12 points. You need eight navs, nines on this. And it was like, okay, so I get all ready to go. And sometimes I was successful, sometimes I wasn't. But putting myself in that frame of mind, that mental state, allowed me to practice and rehearse. So that when I showed up, that was the first Olympics that I'd ever been to.

Crazy.

I mean, that was the first world stage event that I had ever been to. You're gonna do a World Championship on the senior level? Sure. Sure. I did as an age group diver. But, you know, this was like the biggest stage, and it's the Olympic Games.

Wow.

But I was groomed. I was prepared for it.

Wow. And you got the silver.

Yeah.

Were you close to getting a gold?

Yeah, actually, one of the judges, RJ Smith, he was a judge for that Olympic Games, and he came to me, and I missed my ninth dive. That's basically what happened. And he came over and he thanked me for my ninth dive because he said, if you didn't miss that ninth dive, then we would have had to protest the scores, you know, because it was, you know, it was political, it was this, you know, you have politics in there. I think diving is probably one of the more objective subject of sports, but it's still a subjective sport.

Yeah. Like gymnastics, right?

Yeah, yeah. And also, you know, and this is what I tell the athletes that I work with in mentoring them, is that even in prelims, it's your responsibility to educate the judges, to show the judges that you're worthy, you're worthy of getting the eights, nines, tens.

How do you show them you're worthy?

By your performance.

Your performance. Is it the energy? Is it how you approach as well? Or is it just only on results?

It's results based because you. All the good wishes in the world aren't gonna make things happen.

Yeah.

So is there like an thinking, is.

There like an energy that when a diver, you know, if they miss and they put their head down or they're angry, does that make them less desirable of getting good scores? Is it kind of how you show up with your poise and your energy or is that.

I think that's a part of it most definitely. Because no matter what a judge says, as soon as you walk out on the board and the focus is on you, you're being judged absolutely everything. Yeah.

The way you walk, the way you hold yourself.

Yeah.

Wow. And so when you were there, when you were 16, what was that first dive like? First world stage at the Olympics.

The interesting thing was I won the Olympic trials in both 3 meter springboard and 10 meter platform. Wow. Basically, what I believe happened was that top divers, they put pressure on themselves. When you, you know, when you show up to an event, I mean, there is an energy. Now, if you interpret that energy as pressure, then you're more apt to implode. But if you interpret that energy as inspiration, that is what motivates you, drives you to be better than you ever dreamed you could be. So if you tap into that inspiration, then you're gonna see a lot more success.

How did you learn how to tap into that inspiration or love feeling as opposed to pressure or fear?

Well, I started dancing when I was a year and a half and I was performing on stage when I was three. So when you hit the stage and the music starts, there's no stop. It's like, oh, sorry, I missed a step. No, you can't you gotta muddle through, fake it till you make it, you know, get through. And so you learn that mentality. And I think I was just so. That was so ingrained in me that I was able to learn how to utilize that energy of all of these people. Oh, my God, they're looking at me, you know, and especially as a kid, you know, you're really self conscious. And it's like, oh, my God, everybody's watch. So then the elation is in the performance and the success in the performance and then the applause at the end. So, I mean, that's tremendously rewarding. Wow.

And you were adopted early, right, when.

You were nine months old?

Nine months old.

I spent my first nine months in foster care.

Wow, that's crazy.

Yeah. Yeah.

Where do you think you'd be if you weren't adopted? What would your life look like? Would you be a diver? Would you be a dancer? Would you be, you know, all these things you're doing? Would you be. I don't know.

I'd probably be a surfer.

A surfer?

I don't know. I don't know.

Do you ever think about that?

Like, wonder I connected with my biological father? So he is Samoa and he's in Hawaii.

Wow.

And I have a brother and two sisters, half siblings. It was interesting because when I first met Fuvali, it was after the 84 Olympic Games, and so I was a.

Little 24 at this time.

I was 24.

Wow.

And so then I met. I met Sherilyn and Geralyn and Malcolm. And Malcolm was in. I think he was in weightlifting at the time. And then he went into body bodybuilding and then powerlifting. So he was quite the athlete. But I was water. He was on. On land.

Yeah.

So. But I always knew because where I was adopted, home of guiding hands, they said. One of the nurses who had met my parents, I guess, or she said she did, stated that my father wanted to raise me. That's nice.

Yeah.

So I always knew that he wanted me. That also goes back to the Samoan or Polynesian culture. That's what families do. They don't, you know, they don't give up their children. It may be a relative or somebody. It stays in the family.

Wow. Yeah. The grandmother.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do you feel like you were driven to achieve at such a high level because of your. Because of being adopted, by any chance? Do you feel like that was a part of, like a driving force, like I'm gonna prove these people wrong or show them anything?

Yeah, I think that. I think it Was a combination, Whether it be, you know, adoption, my sexual identity. I mean, it was any number of things that were really contributing factors into that desperation of having to succeed early on in my diving career, you know. Cause I was being called sissy boy and, you know, nigger because of dark skin. My dark skin.

Wow.

Yeah, it was really challenging growing up.

It's. Not many young boys are doing dance and theater.

Yeah. It's like, that's a sissy sport.

Yeah. Right.

You know. Right.

Especially back in the 60s, 70s. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. You know, when I was getting my. Getting beat up at the bus stop and my father drives by and getting my face, you know, pushed into the asphalt, I felt like my father felt the same way that these other kids did.

Your biological father or your adopted father?

My adopted father.

You felt like he felt the same way? That.

Yeah. That I was worthless. Worthless, really? That I was a sissy boy and all that. Because I didn't know that he was ever. He never got involved with my dance, acrobatics, gymnastics.

So you want to come and watch or support.

Yeah. Not that I knew of, but when I took care of him the last six weeks of his life, he died of cancer. He shared with me that when I was performing, then he would sneak out of work and come and watch. Wow.

Oh, my God.

But I never knew. He never told me, or he never shared that with me until, you know, he's about ready to die.

Wow. So what was the greatest lessons you learned from your. Your parents, your adopted parents?

I think the greatest lesson that I learned from my mom because she was my champion. You know, when you're that young, you don't have mentors, you know, really, you have champions. And she was my champion, and she taught me about unconditional love. And not just. And it just. It wasn't just words.

She embodied it.

She embodied it. She was. That's who she was to me. Wow. And I asked her some questions about, you know, some of the challenges that I had with a sister that I was raised with. And she said, well, you know, that's your sister. That's, you know, she is who she is. And I love her, you know, unconditionally. It's like, oh, okay. So, I mean, it really kind of solidified that it is possible, that unconditional love is possible.

Wow. Doesn't mean you have to agree with everything that someone does or be excited about certain decisions or choices they make, but you can still love them.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So the unconditional love from your mom.

Yeah. Unconditional love from my mom and your dad.

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My dad, he was more of a skeptic. So it was, you know, be cautious, look before you leap kind of kind of thing. Wished I had learned that lesson a little bit better because I kind of jump into things and then it's like, okay, what was I thinking?

Yeah, that's cool. What were the qualities that they embodied that inspired you to be so driven towards all of your activities, not just diving? But do you feel like they guided you to being a champion or were there other outside factors or internal factors that.

I think initially there were a lot of internal factors and that was proving myself. Like I said, when I first started on the world stage in diving, that came from my success, came from a very desperate place. In order for me to be loved or worthy of being loved, I had to win. I know the same feeling. And I was trying to gain the respect and love from my dad.

Really?

Yeah.

You didn't feel love from him growing up?

I felt like it was conditional.

Unless you succeeded. Then he was proud of you.

Yeah. Then maybe he might be proud of me and how. But you felt that way.

I felt that way not from my parents, but from like everyone else around me. Like, I didn't have friends growing up.

Yeah.

I was the youngest of four and I was just picked on and bullied a lot. I was like this tall when I was 10 years old. I was like this gangly, goofy kid and I couldn't read and write until I got into like late high school.

You have a learning difference.

Yeah, dyslexia.

Dyslexia.

Now that it's, you know. So I didn't know what it was then. I just remember being like, why can't I read this And I just reading over and over and being like, I don't even remember what this paragraph says.

Right.

And horrible. And test taking and just memorization. Everything about school was a disaster until 3 o' clock when sports came around. And that's where I channeled all my energy.

Yeah.

It's like something I could finally understand. Just a ball and putting it into like, you know, it's like something simple and learning how to just have vision. I just, I had great vision. I knew where to be, but I didn't know how to read and write.

Yeah.

And so. And I just got made fun of a lot for being in like special needs classes.

So, you know, it's interesting because there are so many incredible athletes. Bruce, Now Caitlyn Jenner, she has a learning difference. Jackie Joyner, Kersey. You know, there's some incredible athletes that have really made their mark on the world stage. And talking with a lot of them growing up, we didn't feel, and you may have felt this way too, that you didn't have your academics, but you could show people something.

My worst.

You could do something. You had value.

Absolutely. And that's why I had to win at all costs too. I was a horrible loser when I lose, when I lost, I would just be miserable to be around for days until the next competition.

Yeah. Because you're. I don't know. I'm sure it was the same way that I felt too. Is that my training, my competition was a reflection of my self esteem?

Yeah.

Your self worth. Yeah. So when I was successful, then, yay, I'm on top of the world. You know, when I'm not successful, I'm worthless.

I, I think that's a challenge because we're so conditioned to acknowledge the people who are succeeding in business or their career or having successful relationships or sports. And we put so much of our self worth into our self accomplishments.

Right.

As opposed to the progress we make or the generosity we have or the kindness in our heart or the positivity we bring. And it's just so hard because.

Has that evolved for you?

I think it has. Yeah. For me it has. Over the last six years, I've gone on a much deeper journey where I achieved everything. For the first 30 years of my life, all my dreams I went after, I was achieving. I was a professional football player. I made millions of dollars. I had, you know, beautiful girlfriends, like all the things you're supposed to have as a straight man. Right. It was like, that makes you successful. I was achieving, but feeling so miserable and suffering inside And I didn't understand why until about six years ago. Started to go on a journey and heal everything from my past. Talked about sexual abuse I went through when I was five from a man that I didn't know. Talked about when my brother was in prison for years, and all the, you know, just the struggles in school, my parents getting divorced. For me, there's a lot of people who've gone through a lot worse, but for me, it was a lot to deal with at the time. And I never addressed it because as a straight white man in sports growing up, you weren't allowed to express it without being called.

Not given permission.

Not given permission.

Yeah.

There was no groups to talk to about. You couldn't. If I tried to open up to guy friends, they would just be like, get off me. Yeah, wussy girl, whatever, you know, any name. And that's just a challenge. It's just hard to feel like you can express yourself.

Do you find yourself kind of going back and forth sometimes over that? Embracing. Embracing of, like, all the parts of yourself?

Yeah, I go back and forth, but I only go back for moments. And then I'm so, so quick to aware. Be aware and be like, okay, yeah, I'm living in fear. I'm living in anxiety. I'm living in the past. I'm living in hurt.

Yeah.

Like, what can I be grateful for in this moment? And that's why gratitude is a huge part of my life, because when I'm in gratitude, it just fills my heart with more love than fear and pain.

Where did you get that lesson?

I think a lot of suffering, a lot of, like, breakdown where I finally was like, I've been doing this podcast for six years. I've been interviewing some of the world's greatest spiritual leaders. I've done meditation retreats and just tons of emotional intelligence workshops. And I think through taking action on diving through the pain and the emotions and communicating the realizations have been coming up. And I've been practicing over the last six years, so I learned about these things six years ago.

Right.

Practicing it daily is something that's challenging to do because I can go back into a bad place.

Do you schedule that in your.

Every morning? Yeah, Every morning I have a routine. Yeah.

At night, routine.

Yeah. You know, my voicemail when someone calls me. My first thing is, if you want to leave a message, you have to tell me what you're grateful for first.

Yeah.

So throughout the day, I'm always expressing gratitude, journal about what I'm grateful for. At night, I'm talking About they're constant reminders in my life. And I think it's challenging because as an athlete, I think you could understand and appreciate this. We're so used to going after the next big competition or the next big event. What's the thing that we can chase after and win? And when there's no big competition, it's like, how do we value our self worth? How do we identify with that? So I've learned to more focus on, like, what I can control my health. Like, did I show up today and take care of my health? Did I do a tough workout? Did I eat well? Was I kind to people today? Did I do something in my mission, which is part of this show? Did I interview someone and really tap into their heart and spread that message to help people? What are the things on a daily basis that I can control? The Olympics, you know, I haven't made the Olympics. I'm on the USA team for the last seven and a half, eight years now. We haven't qualified since 96, since it was in Atlanta. So it's like, okay, am I worthy? Even though I haven't qualified for the Olympics, just like, constantly being a reminder of, like, every day I have an opportunity to grow. And as long as I focus on growth, then I feel good within my heart. That's what I focus on. So it's not easy.

No, it's not.

It's not easy. And even someone like you I met, it's really challenging because there's so many guys in the NFL that I know who are living in the glory days of their past. It's like, I used to be this great athlete. I used to get all the recognition. And I can only imagine I almost, like, I have some Olympic friends that I feel somewhat bad for. Yeah, they had all this fame when they were 18, 20, 22, the world stage, and then they don't know what their identity is anymore. And I can only imagine that is worse than, like, I don't know, not making it all and, like, constantly progressing. It's like, you had the top and now who are you?

Right.

Have you ever faced that or felt that, like.

Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, most definitely. I think it's one of those things because it is such a high high. Huge, right? Yeah. I mean, it's a really high high.

Everyone in the world is watching you.

Yeah. And so it's like, I think it's something that. That's why I asked, you know, if you go back and forth with that, because it's hard to, like, stay on point and stay in that positive, because we always have challenges and they can come from God knows where, you know, at very different times. But most definitely after I retired from diving, actually had two. I announced two retirements. I was supposed to retire after the 84 Olympic Games. Wow. I was totally dead set. I got my two gold medals, Olympic gold medals. I won the nationals right after that. So it was a record number of national titles from any other diver. And then I was going to retire. So. But the thing was, in 84, I was pushing. I was one of the athlete representatives that was pushing to have trust funds put into place for the younger divers so that they could continue diving after college and have the financial means to be able to do that.

Because they're making no money.

Because they're making no money, nothing. So I went to the president at that time, USA Diving, and I said, look, I was part of the athlete reps to have trust funds put into place. What's going on? And his response to me was, well, you're the only one that it affects and you're retiring, so we don't have to put the money into getting the trust funds put into place. I said, fine, I'm not retiring. Do your homework.

Wow.

And so it was my intent to stay eligible until the time that trust funds were put into place for the younger diabetes, because at least I will have done something for the younger divers coming behind me.

Yeah, the legacy.

Yeah. And so as it turned out, it took two years to get done, trust funds were put into place and I found myself at the world championships. I was successful. I won the World Championships in 3 meter springboard, 10 meter platform. And my coach turns to me and says, it's two more years.

Can you stick it out?

Yeah. But it's like, okay, two more years. I can wrap my head around two more years. And so I hung in there for another two years, but never did I in my wildest dreams would I realize what that meant.

What did it mean?

Six months prior to the Olympic Games, I was diagnosed HIV positive.

Right. And so it was extremely controversial at that time. Right. It was a very.

Oh, no, you didn't say a word about it.

I mean, being gay at that time was like, you didn't talk about that.

Right.

I mean, it's just like that was looked down upon and all these things.

Right. Socially not acceptable because it was interesting because I was out to my friends and family, you know, once I went to college.

Right.

And so. But then after the 84 Olympic Games and I signed on with the William Morris Agency. And it was like, well, Craig, tone down the gay thing. Like, oh, okay. So it was my policy not to discuss my personal life with members of the media. I mean, there was plenty to read between the lines. You could figure it out if you read enough articles. Sure, sure. And I really didn't care. Just because the people who I cared about knew. But hiv? Oh, my God. I mean, my thought was when I had my test sent out and we did it under an assumed name, and my thought was before I got the test results back, was I was dead set that if I was HIV positive, then I was gonna pack my bags. Cause I was training in Florida at the time, pack my bags, go back to California, lock myself in my house, and wait to die.

No way.

Because that's what we thought of HIV at that time. It was a death sentence. I mean, people weren't lasting more than a couple years after their diagnosis. I mean, we had friends dying right and left. So that was my thought. But my cousin, who was my doctor in Florida, he convinced me to stay and train, that that would be the healthiest thing for me, really.

So you got the test, you got the results back, and he said, stay and train.

Yeah, yeah, that. He said that he wanted to treat me aggressively and he'd take care of the medical stuff, and Ron o' Brien would take care of the, you know, the diving stuff. And also, it was easier for me to focus on something like diving because it was a lot more positive. Yeah, I'm really grateful for that because at least I had the diving that I wasn't focused on. Oh, my God, hiv. I'm dying. Yeah. So I had something positive to focus on. So I think that that really enabled me to learn some coping skills surrounding my HIV status and all. Definitely was the healthiest thing for me.

How did you stay focused when you thought, like, I'm going to die in two years? Does any of this even matter? Training, the Olympics? How did you stay positive and focused when seemingly the worst thing that could happen happened?

When you're in that zone, flow, whatever you want to call it, I like to refer to it slipping into that space between air and time. You know, that nothing else exists. It's just that moment in time. And it could be joyful because it was something that was familiar, and it was. I'd experienced this before, and so it was very inviting. That's like with the visualization work and imagery work that I do as well, that. I mean, I love to play my imagination. And in my imagination, these other things don't exist. So the only thing that exists is right here, now, in that moment.

How did you handle the emotions of your heart? Of, like, seeing. I don't know whether you got the phone call or the. You open the letter and it says HIV positive. What does your heart do? I mean, did you feel like exploding? Was it like. And how do you cope or process that to not just go down this destructive path?

I think it's almost impossible not to go there, you know, that destructive path.

So you did go there for a while?

Yeah, for a little bit. Yeah, for a bit. But fortunately, my cousin came over to my. Where I was living.

It was your doctor, too?

It was my doctor, and he delivered the news. And then at least I had somebody to talk to. And so we talked and talked and talked. And it's like, okay, you know. Well, I had this certain idea in my head and he shattered that.

What did he say? There's certain drugs you can live with. There's.

Well, the only drug that we had at that time was azt, and you had to qualify for it. And so my T cell count, I think, was 214, and you had to be under 200 T cells to qualify for it. But I think the next test that I did, it was under 200, so I qualified. But I met with Anthony Fauci at the cdc. He was great, very supportive. I had a very small group of people who knew about my HIV status because we were learning, you know, we were learning as we were going. So any of the medications that I was being prescribed, we had to make sure that my doctor, my cousin, he would call the Olympic training center to make sure that none of the. The medications were on the banned substance list. Obviously azt, they're looking for performance enhancing drugs. And AZT is not a performance enhancing drug. Quite the opposite.

It's hurting you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's quite toxic. And so, yeah, so it was. It was interesting.

Wow. Who was the most influential person within the year after you learned about having HIV in your life that supported you? That, like, you couldn't have got through without this person?

I'd probably have to say that there were three individuals. I didn't want to tell my parents, so they didn't know until years later.

Wow. Really?

Yeah. Wow. Because I didn't want to. I didn't want to worry my mom. I figured if I were to get sick, then. Then I could tell her so she wouldn't have to stress over it. But the three people who were really key in my ability to stay positive Was my coach, Ron o', Brien, dear friend of mine, Debbie Shawn. She's an attorney, but she was like my big sister. She's Dr. Sammy Lee's niece. And then Kathy Sean, her sister, who was a doctor. So a lawyer and a doctor Uncovered. Right. But they actually took me into their home when I was going through some tough times, trying to leave an abusive relationship. So they were there for me and opened their doors to me. Kind of got me on my feet.

And was it this? Let me know if I'm not supposed to talk about these things. But was this relationship, this abusive relationship, how you got the aids, hiv?

You know, what a lot of people want? I mean, even my dad, when he was alive, he wanted to blame Jim. But honestly, I believe that I was probably infected prior to Jim.

Gotcha.

I think we both came into the relationship positive.

Wow.

I don't know because I wasn't tested at that time, but my previous partner before Jim, he passed complications with aids. And so, you know, my suspicions, I think that a lot of us that were exposed were exposed before. Before we. Obviously before we knew about safe sex or anything like that. And I remember doing an interview with Larry King. He's like, how does a smart guy like you get hiv? He was like, I don't understand the question, you know, because I didn't. Because we knew about safe sex after.

After having it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I thought I was in. I'm a serial monogamist.

Sure, sure.

You know, so it's like when I'm with somebody, that's it. Yeah. And so I figured I was probably safe is what it is. Life happens.

That's crazy. So can you educate me on AIDS right now? Hiv? Because everyone was dying, I guess, within a couple years, but now there's certain drugs and medication you can take to extend life very long or what's.

Generally, even if you seroconvert, it can look forward to pretty normal life expectancy, really. People are dying of old age, heart disease and arthritis. And I mean, they're having issues that.

Come with old age, other challenges, but they're having a long life.

Yeah. I mean, they found how to attack the virus in various ways without attacking.

The rest of your body.

There's still some. I mean, it's really hard. The medications are hard on your liver.

Really.

So I do acupuncture and Chinese herbs to support for liver support and immune systems.

You look great. You look young, you look vibrant. You look healthy.

Can you believe I'm almost 60?

It's crazy. You look amazing.

Oh, my God. Next year I'm gonna be 60.

I hope I look this healthy at 60. You look fit, you're joyful. You're full of love. I feel like. So you've been living with this for 30 years, is that right? Yeah, 30 plus years. And so you have to take a medication daily. Is that the.

Essentially, yeah. The drug regimen that I'm on now, it's in the morning and the evening, so I've got it. My HIV meds, I have, let's see, three. Three meds in the morning, three meds in the evening. But I do a lot of supplements, Chinese herbs.

It's like. That helps a lot too.

Yeah, I mean, it's more of a holistic approach. And also, like I said, a lot of the medications that they're metabolized in the liver, so it's really hard on the liver. So you need that liver support.

Yeah.

So my. Actually, I learned more from my Chinese herbalist and acupuncturist than I do my regular doctor.

That's funny.

You know, he's like, up on, you know, where I'm at. He even called me the other yesterday to go over my labs. Oh, that's cool.

What is the biggest challenge you feel like you faced your entire life?

The biggest challenge I've ever faced in my life.

Your whole life. Would you say that was, like, one of the biggest challenges you faced, or was there something else you've been through?

The biggest challenge. That's a hard one, because once you get through that door, it's no longer a challenge. Yeah. I mean, when I was diagnosed with hiv, you would think that's. But once you get through that door, then you realize everything's okay. Losing my father, taking care of him the last six weeks of his life, I mean, that goodbye, that was a challenge because we had come so far because we didn't always have the best relationships. And then we made peace with each other in those last. Actually, that last year, because he was diagnosed with cancer, and I came out to him about my HIV status. And so it became a crusade for life and quality of life. We had many conversations about that. Losing my mother, that was tremendous loss.

How did that make you feel?

It was. I think in some ways it's harder now than it was then. Really, because when you're going through it, you're in the heat of it, then you're taking care of everybody else and not always taking care of yourself. I think it's. I mean, I still talk to her, write her letters, you know, to this day. And she passed in 04. So she had a tremendous impact on me.

Wow. So what's the thing you love about her the most?

Her laugh. Yeah. I think that's what I missed most, was her laugh, because she was genuine. She was real with me and not afraid to. I mean, we had this connection. It was really bizarre. It was like, you know, when I was away at college, it was like, okay, I gotta call Mom. And then I called mom, and it's like, oh, she's. Something was going on, naturally. It was the. She was on the verge of asking for a divorce, so. Or actually, my dad asked for the divorce, and then she said, okay. I think he was expecting her to. No, I didn't. And she said, okay. So that was kind of turmoil for her. And I just sensed it. I was just like, you know, it's like I called her. I said, well, I knew that there was some reason why I called. So, yeah, we just had that kind of psychic connection. Amazing.

Wow. Of all the accomplishments you've had, from sports to activism to theater and movies and other things you've done, what's the thing you're most proud of?

I think the thing that I'm probably most proud of, I mean, there's so many things. I reached out to Ryan White when the People magazine article came out about this young boy who is a hemophiliac who contracted the HIV virus back in 87, I think it was. He experienced a lot of hate, because any hate or anger or anything like that stems from fear, from a place of fear. So I reached out to him and his mom and invited him to a national championships in Indianapolis. And I felt like if. If people saw that I wasn't afraid of him, then maybe they wouldn't be so afraid. So, I mean, there's those types of things. Oh, probably I've said this in the past. Is my book Breaking the Surface? Because when I was on book tour, I had numerous people come to me and say, you saved my life. And whether it was about surrounding HIV or their sexual identity or an abusive relationship or, you know, whatever it was, or being bullied, because when I was. The book was being published, my feeling before I went on book tour was I was sharing my weaknesses. You know, it's not very manly or masculine to admit that you were raped or that you were in an abusive relationship or that you were gay or that you have HIV or, you know, so I felt like I was. Or suffer from depression.

Right.

So I felt like I was sharing my weaknesses. But when I was on book tour. I realized by sharing my weaknesses, I was actually sharing my strength, because not everybody can do that.

It's challenging.

Yeah. And so. But I find that being able to let go of that stuff, that judgment and all, and living your life, living your own truth, I mean, it's a daily challenge, but you're more apt to embody that truth, that you can move through life with integrity, you know, that you do what you say and say what you do and be true to it. It's so hard for other. For people to do that, but it's. But the first person that you really like, the first. When you're coming out, the first person you have to come out to is yourself. You know, the first person that you have to be honest with and brutally honest you with. With is yourself. So once you accept that truth, then you can. You don't have to apologize for anything. You can just be.

Yeah.

Wow.

Was it hard coming out to yourself?

Yeah.

How old were you when you came to yourself first?

Well, I mean, I think I knew that there was. I didn't put sexuality to it. I think I knew when I was a really young, like 6, 5, 6, 7, 5, probably. You know, I think I. I knew that something was different. I didn't put sexuality to it. It wasn't until later. And then, you know, you're going through puberty and, you know, junior high and all the guys are talking about all these conquests and it's like you're like.

Didn'T care at all. Yeah.

Okay. Is that. And then later on you find out they weren't doing anything. Right, right. And then I realized I was doing it. It's like I was doing everything they were talking about. I thought that's what they were doing. Sure, sure. So it's weird. Yeah. Also giving up the, you know, the idea of needing validation.

For what? Validation?

Yeah, yeah. That you're good enough. It was funny because, like, I was doing a dive camp in Arizona and had a bunch of little kids and I told them, you know, do something kind for mother Earth, anybody, you know, but. And not look for any recognition, you know, do it. Don't tell anybody, you know, just do it for your own inner peace and validation to yourself. And so I said, even if it's picking up a piece of trash or complimenting somebody or, you know, being supportive, just being there, an ear, listen, you don't. You don't have to speak. And so, you know, we were at a lunch break. We were just finishing up our lunch break, and you Know, I'm going around and I'm picking up trash. One of the mothers of one of the kids said, oh, my God, you really do do that stuff, don't you? I was like, yeah. I mean, that's what. Why wouldn't I be? I mean, because ultimately we have to be examples. I mean, I learned by example. I mean, I'm also sober, so I've been sober, what, 12, 13 years? Coming up to 13 years, my sponsor is. I never told him he was my sponsor for years because I learned by example and what he would say in his classes and Cher and his journey, flaws and all. That's where I learned, you know, that he lives it.

Yeah.

And that's what I want to do too.

Yeah. Be the example, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

When you're teaching about visualization with these, at these dive camps or any other athletes you're training one on one, how do you translate what you learned and experienced visually with imagery? Because I believe in visualization. I did it for many years. How do you translate teaching that emotion, that feeling, to get in the flow? What do you tell people?

Well, the first thing with visualization, and I learned through trial and error because I learned visualization when I was three. Wow. And that was, I'm sure by accident. My dance instructor said, okay, visualize yourself. No, she didn't say visualize. She said, okay, imagine yourself doing the routine. And she played the music, left the room. I was only three years old, so I was like, okay, that's how I interpreted it. And so that's how I learned visualization. And then later on, I learned relaxation exercises when I was going through, through puberty. It was like, you know, I was suffering from anxiety and stress related stuff. I also had asthma. What I learned in teaching visualization to dog, agility people, ballroom dancers, water pole players, divers, I had to start with relaxation. I had to teach them the relaxation exercise, take them through the relaxation exercises. Then they would have a better opportunity for success in their visualization work. The one thing when I start somebody with visualization work is that I start with something totally away from whatever activity they're wanting to visualize.

Like what?

Well, I have several. I have several kind of fun exercises. I think, I think, let's see, there's a roller coaster ride, there's a horse riding a horse, those two. Because, okay, it's a wild riding, it's roller coaster ride. And I try and get them to use all of their senses. What are they feeling? What are they smelling? What are they hearing? What do they taste? Because when that adrenaline starts amping up, then you get dry mouth kind of. And so those. The horse ride and the roller coaster really taps into the adrenaline. The one that I really enjoy, especially with kids, is I tell them, okay, you're gonna bake some cookies. And it's like, okay, pick somebody that you wanna bake cookies with. Whether it's your mom, your best friend, your aunt, your uncle, whomever. Pick whoever it is. So there's an emotional connection to that person. And then I go through the measuring of the sugar and the flour and the texture of the butter and the smell of the extract, you know, whether it be vanilla or almond or whatever it is. So they go through all of their senses, the sense of smell, taste and all of that stuff. And I try and encourage them to use all of their senses because you never know what's going to come out to the forefront as far as their strength. And so, you know, that's how I teach visualization. That it's totally removed from what the activity is. Because that's important. Because if it goes wrong in the activity that they're going to.

Yeah.

Then it. Then it has a tendency of going wrong.

And so you have them practice something other activity first. You have them relax, breathe, go through another activity of visualization. Then you take them to the dive or to the sport after that.

Not necessarily, no. I mean, I let them hang out there, and then it's almost like they're muscles that you're flexing and using to utilize. So the more that you flex those muscles and the more fun that you can have in doing it, the more likely you are to practice and do it. So then you play along, play along, play along. It's like, oh, you know, let's try this. You know, they come to the conclusion on their own usually that, okay, I'm ready for this. And then their visualization kind of steps right into place.

That's powerful.

Yeah.

I've never heard someone talk about visualizing another activity. First to hide your senses and then step into yours when you're ready.

Yeah.

So I like that. That's a great. I'm going to start doing that. Even when you were talking about making the cookies, I was visualizing. Visualizing poor. Like measuring the sugar, flour. They were chocolate chip.

Chocolate chip.

Chocolate chip. For me, I mean, that's what I.

Chocolate chip or peanut butter snickerdoodle.

I was. I was smelling. And then you said the vanilla extract or the almond. And I was thinking of, like, the mixture of both the vanilla smell smell and the Almond taste. And I was, like, feeling it. You just. You barely even doing it. I was just, like, processing it with my mom and seeing them rise in the oven and take them out and biting this gooey and burning the top of my mouth and waiting, you know, stuff. It's like.

Yeah.

I could literally smell vanilla.

Yeah.

When you said it, it was like. Could taste the sugar and the chocolate melting in my mouth.

It's funny because, like, every time I've done that with kids especially, they love the kids. It's like, oh, my God, I gotta go to the subway and get a cookie.

I know, right? It's so soft at Subway. Oh, my gosh. I got a couple final questions for you. This one's called the Three Truths. So I ask everyone this question at the end. So I want you to imagine it's your last day, many years from now on Earth. But you've got to pick the day eventually, and you've got to leave, right? Yeah, eventually. It's. It could be 100 years from now, and you've accomplished everything you want to accomplish from your whole life from now until when that day happens, you've lived the life you want. And for whatever reason, you've got to go. It's your time to go. And you've got to take all of your accomplishments, your medals, your books, your movies, they've all got to go with you, the things you've created. So no one has access to your content anymore, but you get to write down on a piece of paper and a pen the three things you know to be true about life. The three biggest lessons you've learned, or what I like to say. Your three truths that you would share with the world.

My three truths?

Yeah. What would be your three truths?

Nothing really matters, except now. Life is a game. Play it. I have to say, validation is redundant.

What does that mean?

You don't need to be validated. I mean, if you are true to yourself and authentic, there's no apology. There's just who you are. It's just who you are. So it needs. No, obviously, because I'm very much about love. It's got to come from a loving place. It's got to be embodied in love.

When do you feel the most loved?

When do I feel the most loved? Sometimes at events with kids. When I do some workshops and I've done some camps there, and definitely with my dogs. Yeah, my dogs just bring you so.

Much joy to your life.

They give you, that's true, unconditional love. And they don't know anything Else. So it's either unconditional love or fear, because in any of the. Any aggression or anything like that, it stems from fear. I also train dogs very much aware and in tune with reading those signs of stress and fear. I just want my dogs to feel loved and safe.

How do you create that feeling for dogs or humans?

Through gangs. Really? Yeah.

Games for dogs makes them feel safe.

Yeah.

What type of games? Playing fetch or some other.

I mean, one thing that I'm going through right now is trying to build confidence in. In one of the dogs that I have. And so I'm teaching her tricks. So that's always fun. Fun for me and fun. Fun for her.

When she learns a new trick, she feels more confident.

Yeah, yeah. Because it's gets her mind thinking and not worrying. It's like, oh, my God, you know, there's a boogeyman around the corner. Something like that. So that's one thing that I learned in competing in dog agility, is that I would always teach my dog some really solid tricks that they can do at the start line. So it kind of gets them off focused of the dog agility and kind of it's okay, you know, I can do this trick. I can play around. It's all about fun.

Wow. It's kind of like visualization of another activity for a dog. For the activity itself.

Yeah, yeah.

It's like, roll over, play dead. Okay, now let's go do this competition. That's cool. You're truly translating what you learned in sports with dogs. That's great.

Well, that was one of the things that I, you know, years ago, when I first started with Ron o', Brien, that was one of the first things that I told him. I said, you know, I do better when I'm having fun, when I'm smiling and having fun. I said, you have permission to kick me in the ass if I'm not. And actually, at the World Championships that year, 78, he did come up at my practice because the weather was miserable. It was in Berlin. It was rainy, it was cloudy, it was cold. I'm a fair weather diver, love the sun. And it was just miserable. And so I was just like, having horrible workout after horrible workout. And then he came up while I was under the shower, you know, in the shower, trying to get warm. And he kicked me in the ass and walks away. And I look and it's like I.

See the back of his head.

I was like, oh, my God. It's come to, you know, physical abuse. And then at this facility, they had an elevator so I'm in the elevator going up to the 10 meter, and it's like I told him he could kick me in the ass for not having fun. And so I started laughing, and then I, you know, got my scowl face on, you know, like, looked down and said, okay, watch this. I did my front three and a half, and I nailed it. He goes, well, that's more like it. And it's like. So it forced me to turn. Turn a corner.

Yeah.

And it was a great lesson.

That's why I think your truth about life as a game. Play it. I think if we're not playing in our daily lives, we're not being playful, if we're not having fun, if we're not expressing joy, it's so much more serious. And as you know, as an athlete, you can't get into flow without having fun. Right. Without being relaxed, without being playful.

Well, that was when I hit my head on the diving board. Everybody likes to bring this up. That's all. They remember me hitting my head on the diving board. But I did come back and win, so I can't be the agony of defeat. Sure. But that was the one thing. If you look at the clip on the very next dive, I set the board. They announced the dive. You could hear an audible gasp from the audience from where I was standing. So it kind of told me that they were afraid for me, and I was afraid for me, too.

Before you went into the dive?

Before. I went to. After that, the next dive, after hitting my head, because it was in the same direction. And so I took a deep breath and I pounded, patted my chest because I felt like my heart was pounding outside my chest. And then the people around who saw that chuckled and go, oh, my God, he's afraid too. We're afraid for him. And so I started laughing. I was like, oh, my God, these people, they're in my corner. It's like, oh, you know. So if you're. And J.K. rowlings got this right in Prisoner of Azkaban, the Bogart. What's a Bogart? It's a shapeshifter that turns into your greatest fear. How do you transform a Boggart? The spell is ridiculous. You make it look really ridiculous. How do you banish a Bogart? You laugh at it, and that's. And the Bogart is fear. Mm.

I love this good stuff. One final question, but before I do, you've got a movie you're working on. There's a movie that's coming out soon.

Can you talk about it? Yeah, it's a biopic. We're working with a production company in London.

Okay.

So, yeah, we're trying to get that. We're so close. Yeah. To getting it.

Is it already finished or is it. No, no, no, we're working on it right now.

Yeah. Yeah, we're looking to get it made.

Amazing. So you're looking to get that made right now. What else do you have working on.

That we can Support with Lou Ganis.com, you know, you can keep up with what I'm doing. I've got your books are there.

Everything's there. Yeah.

Books there, movies there. I'm also the sports director for Red Bull Cliff Diving World Series. So we've got. That sounds cool. The season is going to be starting shortly, so. Really looking forward to that. Also looking to. Through. I'm pretty sure it's going to be through my website, but an online coaching.

Oh, wow. Really? So, yeah, like a diving coaching or like a mental training or like a.

It's what I. Mental.

Wow.

Whether it's the relaxation visualization or you need to be able to achieve your goals. I mean, it was so funny because like one of our divers, Cassidy Krug, I gave this breathing exercise when I did the TV show Splash. I gave that breathing exercise. And then she pipes in. I didn't think she was listening. She said, yeah, you gave that exercise to us. And he said, that was the only way I was able to get through the finals at the Olympic Games in London was using that exercise. So, you know. Yeah, you know, to be able to achieve what you don't believe in here, that you can achieve. Wow.

Amazing. So that's all going to be@luganis.com right? The coaching and everything else. Okay. I want to acknowledge you for a moment for your incredible joy that you bring to the world because you've been through so many different challenges. You've been through what people would think are like some of the worst challenges to go through, things that they would hate to have happen to them. And you've gone through them with grace and peace and love. I'm assuming not all the time, but it looks like you've really processed everything that's gone through in your life in such a peaceful, loving way. And you've used the energy to be one of the best athletes ever to, you know, pursue your dreams, to help humanity. And for me, that's so inspiring. And you're an amazing symbol of love and joy and I want to acknowledge you for all the gifts that you have in the world. My final Question for you is, what's your definition of greatness?

My definition of greatness?

Yeah.

Thinking, acting, and being beyond yourself.

There you go, Greg. Thank you so much.

Does that make sense?

It's a great definition.

Okay, perfect. Yeah. I mean, it's. You're the man.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you. There you have it, my friends. The greatness community is taking the world over. We have so many people who are listening to this episode and to these episodes every single week. Learning, growing together, connecting. There's a community online of people who are supporting one another, and I want, want you to get a part of this and subscribe to the podcast right now. If this is your first time here, welcome to the community. Welcome to the movement of people who are dedicated and committed to growth in their personal lives. That's what this is all about. How can we find more fulfillment, more meaning, more purpose in our life? With everything we do, with our health, our relationships, career, our business and our purpose in life, that's where we're all about. This is episode number 767 with Greg Louganis. Make sure to share this with your friends. You can just send them the link Lewishouse.com767 text it to a friend, message them on social media, let them know you're thinking about them and you think this might support their journey in life or inspire them in some way to bring it back to the beginning. Christopher Reeve said, a hero is an ordinary individual who finds the strength to persevere and endure in spite of overwhelming obstacles. And John Quincy Adams said, patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish. You are a hero. You are someone who can overcome ordinary challenges every single day to create extraordinary results. It's all about the consistency of showing up. You don't have to be perfect. You just have to continue to show up each and every day and try to be a little bit better than the day before. You are loved, you matter and your dreams matter. And I hope you enjoyed this episode. And as always, thank you so much for being here. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do some something great. The school of greatness is sponsored by Capital One. Nowadays, most people subscribe to everything. Music, tv, even dog food. And it rocks. Until you have to manage it all. Which is where Capital One comes in. Capital One credit cardholders can easily track, block or cancel reoccurring charges right from the Capital One mobile app at no additional cost. With one sign in, you can manage all your subscriptions all in one place. Learn more@Capital1.com subscriptions terms and conditions apply.

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