781 Topher Grace: Make Your Opportunity and Multiply It

This is episode number 781 with Topher Grace. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. William Shakespeare said this above all, to thine own self be true. Welcome to this episode. We've got Topher Grace in the house. I just went on his show that he launched and it was an incredible adventure. And so we're bringing him on to share his story. And for those that don't know who Topher is, he became famous for that 70s show. He played Eric Foreman in the Fox sitcom that 70s show, which took over the TV world for a number of seasons. Then he went on to play in Spider-Man 3. He was in many other movies as well. He was an interstellar and recently in Spike Lee's film Black Klansman, which we haven't seen that extremely powerful and inspiring as well. His other roles, he's been in traffic and Mona Lisa smile, Valentine's Day, take me home tonight, the Big reading war machine and under the Silver Lake. Lots of other stuff. This guy's been around for a while now, doing some incredible work. And in this interview, we talk about the biggest lessons Topher learned on that 70s Show, what it was like being a young kid rising to fame so quickly with his first acting job. Pretty crazy. And how he got that job. Talk about how his parents kept him grounded, being young and successful when everyone wanted the piece of them. The power of listening on and offset when he to actually listen deeper and not get into his head too much. And we discuss what Topher is still insecure about after over a decade in TV and the film industry. Powerful interview. Make sure to share with your friends. Let me know what you think over on Instagram at Lewis Howes. And as always, you can watch the full video interview over on youtube.com/LewisHowes as well. Big thank you to our sponsors. And I'm excited about today's episode with the one and only Topher Grace. Welcome back to the School of Greatness podcast. We've got the legendary Topher Grace in the house, man. Good to see you, man.

Good to see you, Vans. So good to see you, man. Doing well? Yeah, really well. And I'm sure you're about to say this, but we had an incredible experience together. So it's good to see you post that experience.

Yes, we had an amazing journey, an.

Adventure, a minor adventure.

A minor, not a big adventure. Minor adventure. Minor adventure, yeah. Topher's got a new podcast out. called Minor Adventures. And that's what it's called, right?

Minor Adventures. Yeah.

And you created a magical experience for people.

Well, I don't know if this is what you want to go into right off the bat, but it's, I didn't know you then.

Yeah, we just met like two minutes.

Before we did this. It was like going on some date.

Or something and you'd been-- Sim asked me to do this thing. He's like, Hey, I'm launching this new thing. I don't know if it's gonna work or not.

It could be like the most incredible thing or a bust. And boy, did it work. Do you know, Matt Nathanson is covering that song?

Wait a minute, what?

Yeah. So every episode, tell us what happens. Every episode, we'd only done it twice before when you came on, and I was so thrilled to have you, you know, knowing of you, but not knowing you. That's kind of one of the fun things about having a podcast. And every guest who comes in, like you, has no idea what they're gonna do. I mean, you can vouch for that. You had no idea what you're gonna do that day. I know you didn't, because look on your face when we announced what we were gonna do, it was kind of like, What? So we talk for about 10 minutes and then Sam announces what adventure we're gonna do. And it's been, you know, we hooked someone up to lie detector tests. We did Reiki. We did telemarketing on one of them. It was hilarious.

You made phone calls, like, tell them.

We just did beatboxing with Chrissy Metz. It was like, as we tried to pair people with things you might not think about. And with you, we got the best pop songwriter in the world. She'd written for, like, Beyonce and-- yeah. A lot of great artists, and she came in and we wrote a song, and it was bad at first.

And then she made it good.

And then she made it good. You helped. I mean, actually you came up with what the whole song was kind of gonna be about. And then there was this moment, I just heard it, so like, you,'re at a disadvantage 'cause you haven't heard it yet, but we found it, right? It was like this magical moment where all of a sudden it was a real song, and then they liked it so much that they had Matt Nathanson, who I'm a huge fan of, You can't believe you even heard it yet.

We should have brought it on the show.

Who is this guy? Matt Anderson is a pop song singer and writer. Which is our hardest stuff. Oh, you've heard his stuff. I mean, due to rights issues, I'm sure I can't sing it right now, but soon you'll know his number one hit single. What's the name of it?

Wait, why can't I remember it?

Even if I Fall. Even if I Fall.

Which sounds like a Lewis Howes title for a song. There you go, there you go. But you really were so game.

Even if I Fall, we were talking about overcoming challenges and adversity in your life. Well, first you and I were talking about it, When she came in the room, she wanted something that was personal. And so we kind of referenced what we had been talking about. And then I just heard it. Like you come, there's a moment where you kind of come up with a really important part of it. And then I came up with what rhymed. And she was basically doing all of it, let's be honest. I mean, she's an amazing songwriter. We're just throwing out rhymes. We're just throwing out rhymes. Grabbing them and making them a real thing. And then it got good. Like we had that moment where we all went, oh! And I'm so glad I'm so glad I'm doing a podcast so you can capture moments like that. And you'll love it when you hear it.

It's like, oh, it's really fun, yeah.

So on the episode, you play it. Well, we have the end of the, you have to go through the whole thing, so you hear us kind of find it, then she plays a kind of a loose version of it at the end. And then they wrote a whole thing, and this guy recorded a, I mean, I hope in two weeks this is number one on the, Spotify, Billboard, whatever.

By the way, remember we gave up our songwriting? Did we, yeah, we split it four ways.

I'll just say this on air here. We felt so guilty that we said if you get someone to record it, please, I mean, give them all the money, but we're gonna really regret that.

I want a million dollars soon. So the song is good. It's actually really good.

Dude, I don't think, well, you know, 'cause I have these pauses where I then haven't heard the show for a while and we're recording new shows. So when it, yeah, when I heard it, I thought it was good when she was singing it kind of acoustic. And then when I heard, dude, I wish I could just, I should have brought it today and just played it for you. I would love to have watched your face, like, listen.

Yeah, we'll listen to it.

Yeah.

So we did this whole experience. We did like a mini interview.

I was actually interviewing you a lot on the episode. Well, that was the annoying thing, Louis, is that I am three episodes into my own podcast. First podcast. And I'm starting to talk about like where I grew up and what my difficulties were and challenges and overcoming them. And I was like, oh my God, I've been hypnotized. All right, Louis, I've heard you do this to people.

You did it to me.

You did it to me, yeah. But I think we had the editor cut most of that out.

Because I remember saying in the thing.

Well, I see what you did here.

Cut this out.

Yeah, you try, you're trying to turn it on me. Yeah, it was fun though, man. And you were, and a lot of what you were talking about in your life was then in the song. Do you remember Sim said at the beginning, like, he said, let's write the anthem for LA. That's right. Like, there's no anthem for LA.

And then we just tore him down immediately.

We're like, no, we want to write something that's like really, you know, real.

Anthem for LA. Yeah. 'Cause he was thinking like New York.

Anthem as like-- yeah, well, I mean, it's a good idea. But we're talking-- To make money.

Yeah, exactly. Drake and Beyonce. So amazing, man. Well, I'm excited for you. The show's gonna be amazing. I'm excited to hear this pop, this hit number one song. But you've had an incredible journey because you kind of came into fame as a teen star. And I remember you told me, I think when we met, that you had.

Zero jobs before that, or maybe did like one play, or wasn't it something like small? Well, I'd never acted before. I'd worked at Suncoast Video. The Stanford Mall, worked at Dunkin Donuts. So that was kind of the extent.

Of my-- 15, 16, 17?

Oh yeah, and I mean like my mom had to drive me because I didn't have my driver's license. And then I had a really weird thing happen to me, which is, I haven't told this story in a long time, I had to tell it all to America at the beginning of when I started on 70s Show, which is, I was in a high school play. I was, not that I'm the athlete turned entertainer that you are, I was on the varsity tennis team at the school, the boarding school in New Hampshire. And I-- was what, like 300 students or something? I mean, not even. Making Varsity is like you just have to be one of the 12 best people at tennis. And I sprained my ankle and I had these little parts in the school play, you know, past school plays they'd done. So I tried out for the, like for the lead and I got it. It was a big kind of scandal 'cause I wasn't like a drama kid. Some of the drama geeks at the school said we were gonna not do the show and it won't have a-- yeah, boycott it. and they got over that. And then, I mean, they're still probably mad about it because these producers who were the parents of the girl who made the sets were these big time Hollywood producers. I mean, they were just like my friend Lindsay's parents. Right, right. But they called, I was going to school at USC, so I got out here to USC the next year. And I guess they'd been developing that 70s Show and they called me and said, would you like to come try out for, I'd just been rejected from the film school. It's the only reason I went to USC. I've been rejected three times. So I just kind of had no idea what I was doing in my life and I'd never auditioned for anything outside of like school plays.

She did this one school play and.

Her parents-- My actor friends hate when I tell this story, but the head of Fox at the time, you know, I did a lot of like mini kind of audition. They said, okay, we're going to the president of Fox. This is your final audition.

Well, 70s Show.

Yeah. Yeah. And so they said, bring a picture and resume, because this is a real audition today. I said, so, okay, wait, what do you mean? What's a pick and resume? They said, oh, it's like a photo of you, so they know who it is. On the back, you have a resume of all your jobs. I said, okay, cool. And I showed up.

Dunkin Donuts.

No, no, first of all, yeah, the back was literally Dunkin Donuts and Suncoast video in the one part I played in that play. And the front was a picture like that of me and my friends at Six Flags.

No way.

I didn't know what they meant. It's like a headshot of, yeah, So I was, I think that they were so shocked that I got the part. Like it was so, they were looking for a real nerdy kid, and that was what they got. And they got you. Yeah, I wasn't acting nerdy. Wow.

So you've done one play, your friend.

Who was at the school or in.

The play, I guess, her parents, they saw it or something, or they watched it. Yeah, they saw it. I knew them, and I knew they.

Were, they wrote Wayne's World and Tommy Boy, and, you know, there were huge movies at the time, and Third Rock from the Sun, which they wrote, had just won a Golden Globe. So we all knew they were watching the show. We thought, oh, my God, this is amazing. But I don't think in my wildest, I think my wildest dreams, I would have been like a PA for them during a summer. Maybe I would have asked them after freshman year, like, hey, but then I remember when she caught this Bonnie of Bonnie and Terry Turner, who are, you know, just, by the way, they ran Saturday Night Live at one point, like, very talented. She called me, but I didn't. know it would be my friend's mom. So I was at school and just in my dorm.

USC.

I think I was like a little high and she said like, Hey, it's Bonnie. And I was like, oh, did we go out or like, who are you?

Wow.

And she was like, no, it's Lindsay's mom. I was like, oh shit, I got detention. Like, you know, what did I do? I was like putting out the whatever. And then she's like, no, no, we want you to, And this is before the show existed, so she had to kind of explain what the show was about. A couple of years ago, I bumped into one of the producers on it and they said, yeah, we had auditioned like a thousand kids. Like it wasn't like they were thinking of me. Yeah, they went through everyone in LA and I guess I did know when I went to the audition that everyone was too cool. They were all professional nerds. They had like product in their hair and they had like a little bit of makeup on. They were looking like... Yeah, they'd be doing their lines. Yeah, like who you'd hire to play a nerd. I was actually a nerd who couldn't get laid in college at that moment. But these kids were reading the script, they're all reading the script in the hallway and they're kind of like, you know, Donna, I'm such a loser. And I was like, oh, I got this. 'Cause I have real life experience. I am a loser.

Yeah, I'm a loser. So you did the, what was it like, your audition?

Were you nervous? I'm more nervous than I've ever been for anything 'cause I had a feeling I mean, I just knew it would be a life changer if I got, even if it only went for 10 episodes and was canceled or something, it would be totally life changing for me. But then after I got it, I was, I was, I wouldn't say depressed, but I was really, like, if you haven't dreamed that big or anything near that scale, and then it just happens like that. I mean, I left the room and they said, all right, you're gonna be on after the Simpsons and before the X-Files.

And, you know, I was like, oh my God.

How many auditions did you have to do? I did like 12 mini auditions where they just wanted to see that I could repeat what I'd done the last time or come up with something new. And then this one big audition was the real one.

-Was it like some of the other cast members or was it just you?

-No, the only other person who got cast that day was Mila. Who was 14 at the time. It was like crazy. But it was, it's funny, I remember everything that happened that year and that's it. I don't remember anything after it.

Really?

'Cause everything My learning trajectory was so inverted that first year. It was so hard. I remember in the pilot, the director said, Great job on that scene, but you didn't face any of the cameras. I was that new to it. I didn't know how to, I didn't know anything. So that first year was the most intense experience of my life. And then it got easier. Yeah, of course.

Wow, so when there was the 12th audition, the final one, where they were like, okay, this is it and we're gonna make our decision after this, how do they tell you? Oh, they came out and they said.

Hey, we're taking you to dinner 'cause you got the part. And then over dinner, they were telling, I mean, I was in like a sleepwalking state, but I remember they said, you, got it. And then the funny thing is I went back to school, it was spring break. So I hadn't gone back to back home, I'm from Connecticut, but I hadn't gone there because I had this audition, spring break, everyone's gone. So this dorm of like a thousand people was empty and I just walked through it and I had no one to tell and I told like one Korean student who was there because he couldn't go home. I think he knew English but I was like, I'm gonna be the lead of a show. And he was like, oh, like I'm not even sure still to this day if he understood me or even if he did, like he probably thought I was insane or something but, and then what happened is I started to have headaches. 'cause I had like two months until we started working on it. And I started just feeling, don't take any, you know, I'm not asking for pity. It was just an interesting thing where I was, I knew I was very lucky, but I started, it was just a weird place to be to have never dreamed of anything like that ever happening and then to know you're gonna do it. And it wasn't until, I actually went home just randomly. I went home for a week and skipped school. I was so kind of messed up about it. And then when we started working on it, on the pilot. The first day we started working, I felt better because I thought, oh, this is gonna be really hard. Like, it just felt like you won the lottery and it's like, you're too.

Lucky or something, you know?

Then you're like, oh, this is real work. This is 16, 20 hour days. It's worse for me because I've never memorized a line. I, you know, really, like, I've never done it in front of people. I didn't never been on a set before.

So once I realized how hard it was going to be, I felt better.

If that makes sense. Because why? Because you realized it wasn't going to be this lucky thing. You had to work for it. Yeah, it felt unfair. It felt a little. I don't know, like, I get why a lot of people who win the lottery have like problems.

Because they didn't work for it.

Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, I never actually really thought about it, but I think you just feel like someone gifted you something and then boy did we really earn it, because we really did it for the next seven, eight years.

Seven, eight years. How many, was it eight seasons?

It was eight seasons, 200 episodes, so it's really, It was like, I look back on it now, it was really the most beautiful thing doing that show, because we were kind of the age of the kids when it started. And then we were having these experiences at the same time that, I'm sure I know Wilmer was on here. It was the same way. I was such good friends with Wilmer. I'd go home and sleep over at his house. And he was in high school. And then we'd come back or we'd go, you know, someone was gonna go see a movie together. We just came from working all day together. It was just a beautiful, just a great experience. And it ended it was our first made it so sweet.

All of you were kind of like newbies, I guess. I guess maybe Ashton had done some stuff.

Laura had never acted. Ashton never acted. They modeled. And Wilmer could barely speak English. And Mila and Danny had acted a little bit.

What was the greatest lesson that you learned in that first season?

Oh my god, year where you were oh my God, it's lessons on top of lessons. I mean, I guess it was mostly teamwork stuff. I wasn't in sports, so I didn't have your understanding of-- yeah. But true teamwork, not just kind of like, hey, listen to what everyone says, but really, we're in a crunch right now. Who do I pass the ball to that's gonna score? And that's why I think that show did so well, is because there are a lot of reasons, but that cast really gelled fast, and we all knew how to like this is Ashton's strength, or this is Laura's strength, that kind of thing. Wow.

What would you say is the biggest lesson from the whole eight-year experience? Like, if you look back on all the seasons, all the things you learned, what was the most important thing that you took away?

Just the other night, I was in a tense conversation with my wife. It wasn't a fight because I was wrong, but I really was wrong. I think I learned to say, I'm wrong.

Over the eight seasons.

Yeah, I think a lot of people don't, that's a skill that we don't pay a lot of attention to, but that's another teamwork thing. We have a kid now and I remember the first time, most of my stuff was with Laura Prepon, right? I worked with everyone, but she's amazing actress and amazing person. She's on Orange is the New Black now. I mean, she's had incredible success and I, Remember in like the fifth or sixth episode, we had, I mean it wasn't like a fight, it was just like I thought we should do the joke one way, she thought another way, she's okay, let's do it your way. And the middle of the run through, you kind of like rehearsed to then run through it in front of the writers and the network and stuff. I did, this is a first, it's funny you were saying be real, but the truth is I've never told this story before. I did what her idea of the scene was, because in the moment I was like, wait, she's right, I'm wrong. Do you know what I mean? Like my idea of how this scene, So I did it, it was this kind of dance scene we were doing.

And it got, and it got, and.

It got, and it got. Did she know you were gonna do her way? No, but she went with it 'cause she's such a rock star. And then I was only 19 then, but I was like, well, I've never said this before. I kind of went to her dressing room and I was like, Hey, you were right. There's not a lot of, like, when you're a student in school, there's not a lot of times you have to, I'm sure it's better if you say I was wrong, but I don't think there's no classes for that, you know? and a lot of your work in high school is like very individual. And certainly in the plays, I thought I was right, maybe not admitted to myself a couple times that I was wrong. And I said to Laura, like, you were right, I'm sorry. Like that kind of, and I really meant it. And she was off, she was like, Sure, there's no way she remembers this, but it was amazing for me. And then over the seven years, It's quick, like making that process quicker. Like, you know, immediately, like before it becomes a thing, you know what I mean? Saying, actually you're right. Wow. Just shaving down your ego, I guess, right?

Yeah, not dragging it on. How do you keep yourself grounded while you guys were just blowing up? You know, individually, as a show, as a group of, you know, kids, how did you stay, or did you not?

Everyone handled that pretty differently, but I have great parents. and I had been to boarding school, so I already was in the process of going home all the time. And it was kind of the same schedule. You know, you have the summers off, you have like winter break off. So I had a very real place to, they were in the same house since I was born. So it always felt like I could go out to the real world and then kind of come back in and they're great. They're really great, my parents. And they really, that work I think is done before the thing happens to the person. Yeah.

How do you think people should handle when a big break happens in life? When they win the lottery or something happens, or they get a big press hit, or they get a huge client that maybe they couldn't even dream of, like where you were at. How can someone take a step back and handle that or approach that with grace moving forward so that they don't blow the opportunity? It sounds like you didn't blow it. But you- I would blow up with headaches and stress.

I would have loved to have been better too. I mean, I certainly made every mistake there was to make. But I think like, one thing I hated, I remember at the time was people would say, don't change. You don't know what that means, especially when you're 19, because you're like, I want to change. Like, I hate my life. You know what I mean? Like, I hate, like, I didn't hate my life, but I wanted to do so many different things. And when people are telling you not to change, you also, that's an impossible thing to to do. It's probably bad to not change. They're saying like, kind of stay grounded. I didn't know what that meant. What do I think? Gosh, I think it's probably making every mistake. I sadly don't know if there's a.

Way to- It's messing up and fumbling along the way so you can learn the lessons you need.

Yeah, I think that's why I said the most valuable lesson was saying you were wrong. I'll give you a great example of that, that all these lessons I live with every day because I'm still doing the same job. is the director, David Trainer. He directed every episode of that show, which is very rare for a sitcom director to do all 200 episodes. And he's a wonderful human. He started on Broadway, so he comes from a really working with actors place. Some of these TV directors, they're coming at it from more of a visual place, but he's coming at it from an acting place. And like I said, I was so green in terms of just communicating with actors, I'd say like, In my mind, I thought you were going to do that differently. That's not something you can say as an actor to another actor on set. It's like, no, no, I saw it differently in my head. It's illegal. But we were all starting and we were all-- he was very patient with us that first season. I think in episode seven or eight, really early on, came up to me and said, Can you do this scene faster? It needs to be quick. And I hit an even nicer way of saying, I think Eric would be-- you know, more wanting to get there. But I understood the message was like faster, like we gotta get to the commercial. And I was mad because I really liked the way I was doing it. It really stepped on my ego. Like, I didn't even look at like, oh, I don't mean my ego like I had a huge ego. I mean more like just it personally hurt my feelings. Like I had an opinion on the scene. As you always, if you're an actor, I think of any consequence, it's because you're, you have a, a idea for the scene.

Point of view.

Yeah, point of view. But you know, you're not the boss. You're hired to do that. So I was, I eventually did it faster, but I was really grumbling about it. I think when I saw it, I didn't even pay attention to whether it was actually better or not. I was just like, really feeling mad about it. And then like, I want to say two years later, we're still on the show. It was now season three. I was having a dream and I woke up like early one morning and I was like, Was he right about that? I mean, this is like- Wow, two years later. I was still working with him all the time. And I was like, and I noticed how brilliant the guy was. I was like, well, I don't know if he was right. Maybe we both had good points. Maybe like then half a year after that, I was like, no, he was right. You know what I mean? I was really wrong about that. And so that was now like two and a half years later. And what I realized I needed to do was when a director comes up to you, have that exact conversation that I had with myself, which is you can't stop yourself from being offended. If I came in here and said, why did you put books here? Why did you, it's kind of a lame studio. You can't help yourself from being like, well, I spent a lot of time on this studio. But what you have to do in a period of, it's getting it from two years into three seconds, is to say, okay, let me listen, let me open myself. So I've tried to take that process and now when Spike Lee or Chris Nolan or one of these directors comes up to me, I still have the same, by the way, if anyone comes up to you and says anything's wrong about you, you kind of like want to put up a wall. And so that is an example of something that I've taken with me where...

That's a powerful skill because most people can hold on to words or something that someone says or doesn't say, an acknowledgement or non-acknowledgement and hold on to it for years like you said, or months or days or hours. And it can consume their mind so much where they aren't incapable of taking action on their dreams.

Well, yeah, I wasn't. I was every minute of every day thinking about that scene.

But, I mean, you've dealt with this, and I think actors probably deal with this the most because they're constantly getting critiqued or judged or having, say, no, redo the scene, I'm assuming. So how do, how do you teach other people to deal with that, those emotions where they don't hold on to something, but they take the feedback quickly. They say, okay, this feels whatever, but.

I'm going to move forward. I don't know how to tell someone else to listen. Like it's impossible. It's like really only there's one person you can control. But I will say the people who don't listen, especially on something as collaborative as a film set or a TV set, the punishment is theirs. You know, like even if they think they're standing up for their thing, if you don't know how to listen, it only hurts you.

Who's been the most brilliant person you've worked with, actor, producer, director, or just in general in entertainment.

We did an episode of my podcast with Lewis Howes. Exactly. That changed the game for me. I moved, I gave away all my belongings. No, it was an actor that you.

Were just like, wow, I've never experienced someone so brilliant, whether it be a scene or consistently or a director or.

You'Re just like, I'm gonna give you a couple people. With directors, for me, it was definitely David TraneR who directed 70s Show and early on my first film was Traffic and Steven Soderbergh was someone I was a huge fan of. then he'd just done out of sight and Aaron Brokovich and stuff. And then he was doing traffic. Like, to be able to work with him, I didn't even know how to appreciate that because it was my first film. But in retrospect, I look back and he also holds the camera. So he's right there with you. But Paul Weitz is an amazing director that I worked with who you've seen his stuff, like about a boy and in good company. And he's amazing. I did a play with him in New York. Wow. Another amazing experience. And Spike Lee, who I mentioned, Chris Nolan, and that's been like my David Michod is a really great director. I'm more and more I'm working with just directors that I really love. So the list gets more, hopefully I can add more and more to that list. And actors. Adam Driver was in Blacklands when I got some stuff with him and I.

Thought he was just- that guy's brilliant. He was the guy, he was in.

Girls, wasn't he, for two seasons? Yeah, he's in the Star Wars movies now, but he's also like, him and John David Washington in that movie were like, there were one or two scenes I had with, it was the three of us, and I was like, well, this is a really fun day. It was very heavy subject matter, but like, just bouncing off actors like that is just so much fun.

What is it about those actors that make them so unique? That you're like, wow, this has got like a talent that's even beyond I.

Had a thing looking at Adam a couple times where I was like, this isn't fair. Like his vessel is so much better. You see, he's got this deep voice and he's got a way of delivering lines that if I wanted to copy, I couldn't. You know, else was really great for me and very informative to work with was Dennis Quaid. I actually have done four things with him. And he was in traffic, but then we did this movie in good company and then We did this movie a couple of years ago called Truth with Cate Blanchett. And that was another set where I was just like, Robert Redford was in that. So we'd be in scenes sometimes all of us, and I'd go like, screw it. We were at dinner sometimes. And I was like, holy crap. I can't believe it. Yeah. But I think I always knew it was working with great people because I've been in great ensembles, but it's more and more what I'm obsessed with, just getting around good people.

And I don't care if the movie does that well. I just wanna experience the journey. What makes those people so great, do you think? You know, these few people you've talked about, these actors?

Oh, what's the kind of like the thread that man, I think it's that they don't care about the money.

Wow, interesting.

All these directors and actors, all of them, they're, when you are doing something for money, it takes on, it's a different thing and it kind of, it just keeps kind of, I don't know, metastasizing. You know what I mean? It just keeps getting more about that. And if you kind of say, like, I lost money doing BlackKlansman.

You lost money because you're an executive producer?

No, no, no, no. No, the film made money. I wish I had a piece of it. But no, they said, we don't know if you're right for this. They'd never seen me do that kind of role. So I said, let me go in and read for Spike personally. And then when I got it, they said, oh, we'd love to have you, but it's a local hire, meaning you have to be from. New York so they don't have to fly you out. And I said, oh no, I'll fly myself. And so when you're making decisions from that point of view.

Right, right.

But it's all ego, you know, kind of if you go, oh my God, I didn't get paid. I had to go in and audition. I've been in the business for a long time. You could not have that experience.

There are a lot of different ways you could talk yourself out of it, you know. So you felt like you got a pay cut, you had to do things.

You had to drive yourself to work, whatever, per se. That's not hard. I don't know. You gotta live that life.

Way before.

Uh-huh. You know, like, I remember everyone had, there was a period of time I was on this movie, I was looking around, everyone had an assistant. I was like, what do we need an assistant for? My life is so boring. Do you know what I mean? Like, going to get the, when you're out of work, you know, as an actor, which is the majority of the time, like, you can go get your own dry cleaning. Yeah, you have a lot of free time. One time I had an assistant, 'cause it was in my contract for, I was producing a movie, and I was like, can you dial so-and-so? And she's like, wear it, and I was like, I'll do it. You know, like, I couldn't figure out, like, It was like a waste of time to educate them. There are jobs where you need an assistant, but this is not one of them. But I can see where people start to detach from like, well, now I gotta pay for my assistant, so I gotta do this project, and then it goes the wrong way. Wow.

So what was that experience like for you being like this white supremacist in a time of our country and world where it's very sensitive?

Well, it's two very different things. Playing the character and doing the research for the character was, just like near depression. Like it was, wow. Because I really wanted to come correct for Spike and I did it. I read his autobiography, which is like, you know, it's basically his version of Mein Kampf. And then I was watching these interviews with him and my wife was, we just had our kid at that point. And she was like, you need to take it in the basement. Like, first of all, don't run those lines, like around us, but also like you're just, like depressed. When we started shooting it, it was more fun because I said it was so many great people to work with. But the research was depressing. The doing it and also the idea of working with Spike on something that at that very moment was Charlottesville had just happened. They added that stuff about Charlottesville at the end later. So you're watching the news every day. You're so frustrated as we all are. And then you.

And you're the one who's giving the lines.

It's like, The bad guy. Well, that's, yes, that's when I would, Spike would kind of come up and be like, don't worry, I know we shot all just Klan rally stuff this week, but like, this isn't what the film is gonna be like, you know, I got you. Just to, as an artist, you know, you're an actor, people shouldn't be listening to what you're saying. They really shouldn't, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think there's an actor out there that I'm like, yeah, I wanna listen to his opinion on politics, but we all have opinions and to go work with someone like Spike, who people should listen to, And to be able to say something, I remember when the trailer came out, we improvised a thing. I mean, I went up to Spike and I said, Hey, what if we worked in America first? Because it had kind of happened recently. And he said, yeah, that's great. So during the toast, I say America first. And then that was the end of the trailer. I'm giving a speech. Yeah, I'm giving a speech and I lead a toast. Starts chanting it after me and I was like, oh, this is gonna play in the theater. And then when it was at the end of the trailer, I was like, is Trump gonna see this? Like, I mean, I know he watches TV, you know? And so it was a very cathartic experience. It was very tough, but it was very cathartic to be able to have all this frustration and kind of be able to, you know, it's Spike who's saying something, but I get to help him say something I really believed in.

So that was a moment where you had your own opinion and the director said, yeah, I like your opinion.

We did a lot of rehearsals too. I think that might have come out of rehearsals. It's something not a lot of directors do, but John David, that was his first starring role. We were in these rehearsals and I was like, oh, this is gonna go great. This guy's amazing. Wow.

It's incredible, man. Now, what is that like for your personal life when you play a character that is this evil character in a very sensitive, touchy, you know, subject? Not like the bad guy in some.

Star Wars movie, but-- well, if you're playing the Joker, you can do a little bit of like, well, you know, maybe I kind of see his point of view, 'cause in my made up story, his father was abusive to him or whatever. And this, it's like, I couldn't find that thing that the more I read and did research on him, and it was a lot, I couldn't find that thing that made me sympathize with him. So what I did was I just played kind of pure evil, but totally covered up. And that's how he is too, in my opinion. It's like it all looks very easy to digest and then the deeper you go, the more, and hopefully that's what it feels like in the movie, the more you get to know the character, the more you're like, oh, this guy.

How do you, I mean, did you feel any attacks personally in your personal life? Like did people come up to you.

And say, I said that to Spike when I was cast. I said, you know, man, I ride the subway sometimes. And he said, no, no, don't worry. I think it was John Titor or someone said that to him on do the right thing. And he said, no, no, you're with me. Like, don't worry about it. And it's true. The thing I wasn't scared about was black people thinking I was racist. The thing I was scared about was white racists thinking I was racist. And someone, you know, kind of looking at me and going, you get it. Really? And I haven't had any of that, but I don't really hang out with any of those people.

I probably would like chilling.

Yeah. So I don't know.

But, Interesting.

I was nervous when it came out and I was glad that the film was-- I saw it in Cannes for the first time when it premiered. And I remember when we were doing it, I would say to Spike, I hope we get this, but it's so much humor on top of something that's so heavy. Can this work as a movie? And to his credit, I turned to him in Cannes and I was like, I have never seen anything like this. And it did work. I couldn't believe it.

It's a beautiful movie, man. It's great. Yeah, it's very good. Now, what is life like? What was life like pre-marriage and baby as an actor, thriving in Hollywood, and now you have a one and a half year old married. And what is life like now as a father, being an actor, starting a podcast, you know, doing these projects? How do you handle it emotionally, physically? spiritually everything.

Well, it's amazing. I mean, it's everything everyone tells you and you don't listen beforehand.

And you wait as long as you can.

I did, I literally did. But I think, yeah, it does get worse, but it gets so much better that it's worth the ride. And my daughter's now at this age that's, you know, unbelievable. I would say the podcast, if I go project by project, the podcast is the most fun. because it's five minutes from my house. And I have a reason to leave once a week. And what's great is the nature of it is not just, you know, like, you got to hear my life story. It's probably boring to you, but like, when you came on, I got to we got to talk about, like, you know, I'd never written a song. And then similarly, I've never been hooked up to a lie detector test or I've certainly never done beatboxing. So it's like all these adventures Everyone who has a new kid should definitely have a podcast where they have a different expert coming. It's like a liberal arts education for a 40-year-old or something.

There you go.

So that's really fun and there's kind of nothing hard about that. And I'm home two hours later with my kid. I'll tell you, I'm in this, there's an adaptation of the Hot Zone coming out on Nat Geo, which is one of my favorite books from the 90s. And I'm in it. There's a scene where I had to cry. And the real difference I noticed was beforehand I'd have a little trouble crying sometimes. I'd have to work myself up.

And-- After the job.

Oh man, it was like I couldn't, like, it's a very emotional scene. Really? Yeah, and I just like, so fast, I just went there. 'Cause you're just, I don't know, you're just more loaded up.

You didn't know that chamber existed for you, you know?

Do you feel like you're a better actor then, because-- I'm certainly a better crying actor. If you want me to be, Less emotional. Maybe that's hard now, but I think it's good for an actor. You can always scale it back, you know what I mean? But to find a new kind of cylinder. Yeah.

Do you feel like you're creating, you're gonna, do you feel more urgent to be a working actor or you're kind of like, I've had my time and if something comes cool, but I want to be a father? Oh yeah, I think, or is it.

Like, it would be hard to find the actor who's a dad. Actually, that's probably not true. You probably could find it. It's just you wouldn't like that guy who's like, get me on location. I'm like, part of the reason that I'm excited to have a podcast and hopefully we monetize it at some point is because I'd love to, you know, take one movie a year off the docket. Really? Yeah, I mean, who doesn't want an office job? When you're younger, you're thinking, how do I, how can I be an actor and be in movies? And now I'm like, how do I just stay home?

Really?

Yeah. Yeah. And you, you're one. Even before we had a kid, you crave the the schedule. There's no schedule. Yeah. I'll have, like, two months where I don't work and then a month where I'm getting up at 4 30 every morning. And, you know, it's like I'm all over the place. Every Project's so different. I'd love to just have a company I go into and just work at. Yeah. Be especially having a kid.

You have the opposite life of most people.

Well, you do, too, probably, right? Yeah, exactly.

But most people don't want to go to an office and, like, work every day. They want to have, like, flexibility and freedom and be able to create projects and. Well, it's funny, you just, but you.

Did that for 20 years. Yeah, I grew up. My dad would come home at, you know, 6 p.m. every day. And I think that was good for.

Me and it was good for him, you know? Yeah, the routine is powerful. Whenever I'm traveling too much, I feel.

Like I'm off my workout schedule, my, but you probably got, like, if you have a problem, you're like, okay, let's sit down, let's fix it. Right? Like, okay, so how is this gonna be my new schedule and I'm gonna do, that's like what most You wouldn't know this, but most humans just let it kind of go. And then they kind of go, oh, my life's crap right now. I gotta figure it out. But I hope in terms of, I think what your original question was, which was, you know, do I seek out projects as much? No, but a little bit that's having a kid, a little bit of that is kind of feeling confident that like, I'll probably work again.

So the right projects will come to you.

There was a time 10 years ago where you go like, Come on. But it's funny, I realized I didn't have to do that. It just was, I was young, you know?

The anxiety of it, yeah. 'Cause there's a lot of actors who, I think we might have talked about this briefly on your show, there's a lot of actors who they might have huge hits and then for three, four, five years get nothing because they've been casted as a specific role or whatever and they just can't even get auditions.

Yeah, look, I entered the business in a really unfair way. I've worked hard to earn it in retrospect, you know what I mean? By- you-'ve done the work. Yeah, I mean, hopefully, but it's still probably nothing compared to someone who has to enter from the ground. And so I have great respect for people who, you know, really have to grind it out and trying to earn it now.

What would you say is your biggest insecurity?

My penis is too big.

Too big.

Yeah. And it's like, do I get the surgery or- I don't know. Right. No, my biggest insecurity. Or fear or. Well, it wouldn't have anything to do with work anymore. You know, like, that's another thing about having a kid. And really, when I met my wife, you start feeling you're in a family that it would be like, I don't know, like the polar ice caps are melting. Like when she's an adult, there's not gonna be any polar ice caps. That's not right. Right. And then I can do nothing except maybe being Spike Lee's movie about climate change. You know, maybe you can do a little something, but. Yeah, it's all kind of family stuff and also being a new dad is like, you just think of every worst case scenario. Save yourself, man. You're not married, right? Just don't be in it. You're like, why did I do this? I care so much about this human. It's unbalanced, but it's too late now.

What's the greatest lesson you learned from your daughter so far?

It would be something involving patience. She's not that old. So, like, learn about yourself through her. Well, yesterday was my day. I take Tuesdays. That's all me. And, oh man, it's long. I mean, it's like, no one tells you how kind of boring it is at the beginning. I mean, she can't even talk yet. So, like, we're spending all day together. She's kind of like hitting a pillow. And I'm like, this was a good.

Five minutes, and we got to fill.

Up, you know, 12 more hours. Patience. Patience is what she's teaching me now, you know. Yeah, I guess also like you don't, I hate to be cliched because it's what everyone says, but you didn't know you could love someone that much. You know, it's like, it's, but everything I'm saying, everyone said before, you know.

But it's true, huh?

Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah. Looks like me, it's totally self-centered. She looks like me. I'm like, this is beautiful.

What's been the greatest challenge? being married in the relationship while having a new child.

You know, it's funny that everyone said, like, it's the sleep. And I was like, man, I've done all-nighters on film. Like, I've done a whole movie that was all-nighter, you know what I mean? I'll just kind of figure it out. And it's not that. It's like all-nighters with this incredible amount of stress. And so it's just, I would say it's kind of asleep. And my wife's a rock star. I mean, like, I've really married up. So she, she's a great parent. I am a good co-parent with her, but she is in like a born amazing parent and she's also a rock star, everything she does. So I've just been trying to kind of, you know, bend the knee, you know, like a Game of Thrones, you know what I mean? Like I bend the knee to you.

And.

She'S, but that's part of any business, right? Like I feel that way with Sim on this podcast. Yeah. Sim has already made one of the great podcasts of the early podcasty world called Cast Fear and I did have a point where I worked with people that I was like friends with more on movies and producing and stuff. And I realized like, I do want to work with friends if they're the best at what they do. That's not always the case with your friends. And so I didn't know Sim. I mean, I met him once years ago and then I went on a podcast and he said, I want to take you out to lunch. And I was kind of open to it. I said, sure. I thought it was like the hang out or something. He said, I want to do your podcast because I guess it had gotten a lot of downloads or something. And I said, oh, I don't want to have a podcast. And then I thought the idea, he was so passionate about it as Sim is, and he's at the forefront of this new thing that I thought, you know, I'd like to work with him on this. And it's really him. He came up with that format of the adventures. That's cool. I couldn't have come up with, I don't know what my bad idea for a podcast would have been with me. But someone once told me, you got to feel if you have a partner, you both have to feel like you're fleecing each other at all times. Fleecing each other? Yeah, like taking advantage of each other. You know, like I'm winning being married to my wife and she just doesn't know it. Like I'm sneakily like, and it's the same thing with Sim. I'm kind of like, I just show up and do my thing. And if he feels that way about me and my wife feels that way about me, then it's, you know, worse. Yeah, I'm sure my wife will be thrilled that I compared her to Sim Sarna. In all endeavors. Right, right, exactly. This is great. Do you remember when I made you talk about when you came on mine? I was like, Do other motivational speakers, do you hate them? I mean, it didn't make our podcast, so don't worry about it. But it was like, you turn on Facebook, everyone's like living their best life and whatever, but you actually did it. But like, I mean, people are watching this thing right now, but these people, it's kind of like 34 likes and it's probably half of it's their family. And I was so obsessed with like, what does that feel like to be, what a weird time we live in. No one could do what you do normally 10 years ago, but now everyone's, you know, talking to their phone and telling them like, you gotta stick with your dream or whatever. I'm like, you don't even have your life together.

Like, I mean, you, I mean, the person who's everyone's coach trying to be a coach of something. And that's why I've tried to take a different angle and not be necessarily coach. Even though people come to me for coaching and mentorship or whatever, but I try to be a facilitator, a facilitator of ideas and say, here's I'm going on an adventure, kind of like you. Here's what I've discovered for myself.

Here's the lesson I learned through-- 'Cause you can do that. The other thing you can't really-- you can't tell someone do this, you'll be better, right?

I mean, but you can say like, talk about yourself and like, right, exactly.

Here's how I learned, 'cause I was chasing my dream doing this, this is what I learned, and here's something you can try. It bugs the shit out of you, right?

Come on. Like, you're watching these people.

And also, one, you're going, I could.

Do this so much better. And two, you're saying you're doing it wrong. It doesn't bug me 'cause it allows.

Me to rise to the top. That's smart. You know what I mean?

It's like, okay, everyone's looking for answers or looking for solutions and it allows my platform to continue to rise.

I feel like that when I watch a terrible movie. You're like, bad acting. I go like, oh, this isn't so hard.

I also look at like, I want people to succeed. Like if their dream is to be a coach or to be this or that, like, I want you to figure it out one day because I want to collaborate with people who are rising. Sure, so I look at, you know, it's just like, I don't know, if you see someone who's a bad actor when you're starting out, but then many worked on it for 10 years and.

Now it's like their career took off. I don't want those people to take.

I want, especially people who are 40.

Year old male, white, nerdy. Yeah, I want those people to fail.

Miserably and there's kind of only one spot left. It forces you to get better though. That is true. If there's competition, it forces you to say, you know what? Good, I'm gonna learn how to be better. I'm gonna learn how to grow, how to invest more of my resources in.

My time, how to have a different unique opinion.

So that I stand out.

Do you know who's the best actor to watch talk? I mean, I don't really like watching actors talk, so I'm even wary when-- Opinion out of the screen. Outside of the screen is Ethan Hawke. I just straight up YouTube videos of him giving interviews. He's always saying stuff that's really important about the craft or outside of the craft. And he told this story about River Phoenix, because they were in the Explorers together. Do you remember that movie? No. It's in the '80s. They were like kid actors in it. Who knew they were both gonna blow up so hard? two kids in a movie with these three boys who've gone outer space or whatever. And he decided to go to boarding school. And this is before Dead Poets Society or any of this stuff and just decided to be a real kid. River Phoenix became everything. He was the coolest guy in Hollywood all of a sudden. And you got to hear him tell this story. But River Phoenix was in like a Rolling Stone interview where he's on the COVID and he's talking about reading Catcher in the Rye. And Ethan Hawke's like, you didn't read it. I read it and I told you what it was. You know, he's so he said it was an agony of jealousy of River. Wow. And he said when he died, it just exploded him. He went like, I was wrong. That guy was making me better the whole time. I wouldn't have been in Dead Poets Society. He wouldn't be doing what he's doing today if he didn't have that competition or that other.

I don't even know if it was just competition.

He also respected him on a certain level and thought he was great. And I just went, oh, that's so great he told that story. Because I do think you're right. Ultimately, People you respect give you, I had that in tennis, if you play someone worse than you, you lose to them. You play someone better and you get better, yeah.

LeBron James wants competition, because it's gonna make him score more points and be one of the greatest of all time as opposed to, oh, all he needs.

Is 20 points this game to win. This is the difference between you and these guys on Facebook, is this what I'm saying, you actually came from doing.

Something where when you say that, I go, oh, you know, you've been on the field. You'd rather play against the best and win, and you're like, man, I gave my all and it worked, as opposed.

To like, oh, that was an easy season, we won the championship, because we didn't play anyone. I know you're right. I mean, in the way that moviemaking is like sports, I agree with you.

If it's like, if there was 100 bad movies and you were the only good one and you're like, oh, we're gonna win every award. Cool, it feels good, but it's like, no way.

Well, back that up, actually.

Do you mean the Academy Award?

Yeah.

Or any other way?

I'll take that.

Yeah, I guess, huh. But you know what I mean? It's like, you'd rather win knowing like, man, there were four other great nominations.

But I think what's even better is that they make you better. It's not just that, like, you kind of can feel the, Competition is actually the wrong word. It's got a negative.

Yeah, not competition, but just other quality work.

Yeah.

Other people doing great work that make you want to do great art as well.

Yeah.

Here's a quite more of a personal question for you. Hypothetical. Imagine this is your last day.

Oof.

And it's not gonna happen, but it's.

Just- why did I come to your podcast? I went for my family and my- I gotta get out of here.

Maybe imagine in a year or a couple years, you know, one of your last days, and your daughter isn't able to speak yet. So I guess it's coming up in a few months. And you can leave her with one lesson that you can record on a video or you can say over audio that this will be a lesson that she can learn.

Because she's the age now where I'm like, Chair.

Right, right.

Chair. That would be the right lesson.

When she's 16, 18, 21, she can open this lesson and listen to it, watch it. She can take it in. What would you say to your daughter on how to experience her life?

You know, it's funny. It's something I talked about on Anna's podcast because it was a movie I did with Anna. I had had enough successful things that I got to produce a movie, and it failed so hard. It was number 11 out of 10 opening weekend. I mean, it was just like And it wasn't for lack of me trying, it was for lack of me knowing anything about how to do something like that. And I cared so much about it and I was so, I knew that it got held for a little bit, which is very painful. And in that time, I felt like I had then digested the lessons, but it was kind of too late, do you know what I mean? So I knew there was learning going on, but when it came out, I was just devastated. And then a couple months later, from that time on, my life has been, my working life has been unbelievable because it taught me so much.

Even after you failed so miserably.

Well, I would say that, I mean, everyone has a different version of the story, but failure is the most wonderful teacher. It's nothing to be ashamed of. It's like all the current successes I'm having are because of trying to go deeper in a thing that I didn't understand. and there's no way, I'm watching my daughter right now, she didn't start walking until she fell on the floor like a thousand times. So, I'm sure it hurt. She can't even talk about it. She's learning to try to talk, and it's the same thing. I was really, I didn't even understand what the job of actor was until I got out of it as a producer and saw there were all these other elements. And every right move that I make now is because I made a wrong move then. And it was great talking to Ana about it because, by the way, I like the movie still. It wasn't like it was a terrible film. It just kind of, God, you go back to each experience and you say, I mean, who doesn't do this past a certain age? Go, if only I could change that, if only I could change that. But that's what the future is about, is the, you know, being able to change it, right? Yeah.

So what would you say to her?

I say failure. Yeah, just don't be, you know, at the time, I had so many wins in a row. Yeah. And you get addicted to that feeling. But it's actually, I tried to do this mathematically once. It's like when you're feeling challenged, you're actually going up the mountain. And when you're going down the mountain, you feel amazing. Like there's no challenge. You're just sliding right down it. So like it's so much fun, but then you look up a year later and you go, oh, I didn't do anything, any consequence or whatever. But every time you're messing up, I felt it the whole time I was doing 70s Show, I'd learn how to, the best way to do an interview. And that's only from doing, like, I went on Leno and I couldn't speak. I was so nervous. You know, I mean, it's like. And then they were like, that was a terrible interview. And then you could figure it out. And, you know, it's so. I just. The whole thing. I guarantee you this is a thing to do to look at other people who are crazy successful, who you want to be like, and go, oh, they messed up. You know, they've done it all wrong, too. Maybe they were. not as famous as I was when they were messing it up. But I think that to me is my, I so embrace failure now. When I fail, I know my status is rising, which I think a lot of people think when they're failing, they're going down. It's really kind of when you're succeeding that you're not growing, right?

You're not growing. You might be hitting a stride, but you're not.

No, just the act of just succeeding. The work when you're working and it's challenging and then it has success, that's great. That work was great. But I just went to 200 parties for Black Klansman. That doesn't help anything. You know what I mean?

You're just having fun, you're just like.

You know, it maybe helps the movie's chances of being nominated or something, but it's truly when you're, just what I've noticed for me, I'm just so bad at it, this is how it feels to me, is that when you're dealing with obstacles, and you're even failing against them, but then you're learning how to do it better, and that's when you're actually climbing. It's just painful.

Yeah, I hear you.

Man.

This is called the three truths. This question.

I gotta think of my Lewis Howes metaphor for climbing. Something with rock climbing, or can you give me one? So rock climbing is painful, it hurts you or whatever, but that's how you have the muscles at the end. Whatever, I don't know.

This is called the three truths. I asked this question at the end for everyone. She kind of shared one already, but maybe you'll have a different three here. So imagine this is your second death.

Wow, okay. What is this podcast called, actually? Am I dead now?

You gotta go through pain, remember?

I'm in some kind of purgatory where you just interview me until we see if I get into heaven or something, right?

So imagine this is your last day, you're 100 and something years old. Okay, you live as long as you want to live, you achieve everything.

And 80 is good.

Okay, 80 is good. You achieve all the things you want to achieve. You have the life of your dreams. You go through failures, ups and downs, but it's the final day. And you look back and you say, I don't regret anything. I did it all. Great life. And you get to leave behind three truths, three things you know to be true from all your experiences, all your lessons, all your ups and downs that you would share with the world, not just your daughter, but with the world. what would you say are your three lessons or three truths to the world?

Oh man. Well, yeah, the failure would be one. The other would be if you are getting that penis reduction surgery, research the doctor. That's all I'll say. No, the other two would be, oh man, I'm not anyone that someone should listen to.

But just what do you feel from your life experiences that makes sense for you?

I would say, yeah, maybe one that's in tandem with that failure thing is being up for anything. I noticed that when you came on our podcast, because we were talking about sports and they were talking about being an orator kind of, and then someone came in and said, we're gonna write a pop song, and you didn't miss a beat. I thought you were maybe gonna go, I was kind of hoping to be honest, that you were gonna be like, I can't do this, you know, because you want, you know, a guy who's confident, who's got, you know, to like, not, but you jumped right in, man. And I, and you told me a story when we were talking, so I think I knew it was gonna be like that, where you did the musical in high school.

Yeah. And if there's a-- you- jumped in, yeah.

Yeah, that's like, I didn't-- you- were scared, but I jumped in. I was scared of football, but I didn't play football. I was doing the musical. So, like, I think that quality, which I learned maybe later in life, I wish I'd had, it has to do with failure, but I think it's a slightly different thing. It's like just jumping and Even if I fall, hit single, coming out on iTunes, or out now, it's, that is true. It's like, it's worse to not have tried. Tried. To try. It's worse than I've tried than I've.

Never tried at all or something.

That's one of the lyrics, dude. That's one of the lyrics. And I can't wait. I can't wait for you to hear this. I love that you still know the lyrics.

That's how good it is, man. So catchy.

How memorable it is that we wrote it and we remember it. But like, it's like three months ago or something, right?

It was some while ago.

I really believe in that. I've had a couple of instances where some director will say, like, you know, we want them to fly out here to try out for it, but, you know, don't waste the trip, you know, it's who knows, I can't promise you the role or whatever. And I think, man, get on that plane, go.

You never know.

Yeah, you never know. But it's so much easier said than done. My dad used to say that to me all the time, like, ask her out, you know, ask her to prom. What's the worst that can happen? What happened? She rejected me in front of all my friends. But I even think that made me stronger. So I think that's, and then my other one would be Three Truths. Oh man. Just dance like no one's watching. It would be, I think there's some, there's a balance of real world and fake world. It doesn't just have to be Hollywood, although Hollywood is a much more pronounced, like you really can tell like what is the red carpet and what is you at home in sweats. but I think everyone has a version of, you know, kind of this curated work life thing and this home where you feel comfortable. And I think you have to be tipping, at the very least tipping in the direction of home. I heard this thing on Charlie Rose once years ago where he was interviewing Andre Agassi, and he said, hey, I'm gonna ask you a question. What's the best day of your life? But first, I'm gonna play the same question I asked Pete Sampras on my show last month. So they turned to the monitor and Pete Sampras said- When I beat Agassi or what? No, it was just kind of like tied match set, whatever, you know what I mean? With Agassi, overtime, you know, whatever, and, you know, beautiful day, maybe Wimbledon, you know, that kind of thing. And then it came back to Agassi and he said, oh, that's really kind. Like, wow. And he said, well, what would be your best day? And he was like, I probably had like a barbecue with my family. Like, it wasn't about tennis at all. It was great. And it just showed the difference between those two players, right? Sampras was kind of a real robot about it. Agassi was more of an artist. And I do believe that your personal stuff is tied to whatever your professional wants or dreams are kind of can't happen without that balance. Wow. That's pretty interesting. Yeah. I think I've heard that truth before.

That's powerful. Did you say it or something?

No, I don't think I've heard that. Oh, you don't think you've heard it? I thought you said, I think I've heard it before. No, I don't think I've heard that before. I housed your book last night, man.

That's good. Now, yeah, I think I would say page 82. No, I think that's powerful. I want to acknowledge you for a moment for constantly showing up and reinventing yourself. Because I think it's hard to be a star in one show and then continue to reinvent and do other challenging projects and try to do that in this space. I've seen a lot of actors who haven't been able to do that and you've been doing it for 20 years.

Someone asked me on the red carpet of Black Sails and did you ever see yourself playing the Grand Wizard of the KKK? Back when you were doing 70s Show? What? Why would I have been daydreaming about, like, if I could ever play the exact opposite, right? But it's powerful, man, because you're willing.

To take risks, you're willing to take the jump, you're willing to fail, and I acknowledge you for that, man. I acknowledge you for being a powerful father, a great leader for your family, and everything that you do, and taking the risk for the podcast. So congrats on that as well.

Thank you for, by the way, I was just so your audience knows I was, Two episodes in before you. Yeah, in the sim or something. People had vouched for you and I was aware of you, but you don't know what someone's actually gonna show up with that kind of energy and it was, we should give you a cut of that show, 'cause you were so great. The adventure went so great, it was our first great one and like, that's good. Just thank you for coming on. It all went downhill after that, no, I was just kidding. No, well, weirdly, kind of it could, but it's when you see that something, it's just like doing a show or movies, if you see it can start working, then that becomes the roadmap of like, how do we do this kind of thing?

Yeah. led the way for the next.

I won't tell you what the first.

Two episodes were if they're airing right. Great. Well, make sure you guys check out the podcast. It's called Minor Adventures. To All for Grace.

And where can we connect with you online? I'm not too active on social media.

But I guess follow Minor Adventures.

Minor Adventures. They'll tell you when-- On Instagram or Twitter or wherever it's at. I'm so bad at this part. Okay. But you're on Instagram, right? Yeah, yes. Once I got married, I was like.

I'm gonna do two photos a week.

That's a promise.

Okay, cool. So you're reminding me I have to post a photo at some point.

Perfect. This week, yeah.

Okay, perfect. And is there a website for you as well or?

No, I'm sorry.

Just social media. Check out the podcast, subscribe to it. My final question then is, what is your definition of greatness?

Give me other answers real quick.

I'll give you mine. It is to discover the unique talents and gifts within you and use those gifts to pursue your dreams. And in the pursuit of your dreams, make the maximum impact on people around you?

Yeah, that sounds pretty thought out. I don't think I'm going to have something that quick. Here's what I'll say, I was just in a conversation with about right now. So this is at this point in my life, what I'm trying to do. 10 years ago, it was like trying to get a date with whoever.

Get a girl to like you, that was my goal.

Yeah, that's the motivator that brings you to like, but I would say right now I'm trying to not focus on an idea of what I think I should be. maybe that comes with being 40 or something. When you're younger, maybe you think like, I should be like, wouldn't it be great if I was this? Or just not having any, because I feel more confident than I did in my 20s and I want to like, the perfect example is the podcast or something strange like that that I wouldn't have thought I was going to do. And just saying, hey, if I've identified these qualities you're talking about that are good, I'm going to go, yeah, that might work. And just being confident and remaining really open. 'Cause you can't, I mean, if I said to my agent, I want to do an action comedy, they'd go, okay, we'll ring you up when one of those comes together, you know, but to just stay open and say, you know, I'm gonna work with the people, I mean, like the David Duke thing, you know, three days before that, I didn't know I was gonna be doing that. So, yeah, I think I would just, just to remain open and confident what your things are.

That's cool. Go for it, my man.

Appreciate it, bro. Thank you.

And there you have it, my friends. I hope you enjoyed this episode with To For Grace. Make sure to check out his podcast Adventure as well that I just went on and we recorded a song and go listen to it. It's pretty cool. It's really exciting, actually, to see what we created in a short amount of time. If you enjoyed this, share with your friends. Lewis house.com/781 share it out. Spread message of inspiration and greatness far and wide to make an impact on the lives around you. The people you care about. Send them this podcast. Let them know. Tell them to subscribe. If you haven't subscribed yourself, make sure to subscribe right now over on the Apple podcast, on your phone. You can go to Spotify, listen there, SoundCloud, Google Play, all the places. Leave us a review. The reviews really help us get the message out as to spread the message of greatness to more people. Remember that you are a incredible, beautiful, one of a kind individual. There's no one who's ever going to be like you ever again. You are here for a reason. And I hope you remember that you've got an opportunity to do something special with your life. You've got different moments where you can maximize the gifts and the talents that you were born with. You can discover new talents and gifts. You can learn a new skill. You can master it, and then apply that by giving value to other people with your talent. You can make magic in your life if you choose to work at it. You've just got to be willing to step up and have the confidence in yourself. I hope this podcast, the School of Greatness, has given you different tools and inspiration and confidence to allow you to take the leap of faith into the unknown, the leap of faith into the scary, messy time of life. Because once you get through those scary, messy times, there is incredible beauty on the other side. I love you so very much. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.