793 Mark Manson: What People Don't Tell You about Success

This is episode number 793 with number one New York Times best-selling author, Mark Manson.

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur, and each week we bring you an inspiring person.

Or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.

Thanks for spending some time with me today.

Now let the class begin.

Les Brown said, your goals are the roadmaps that guide you and show you what is possible for your life. Super excited about this episode. We've got Mark Manson in the house. He's a New York Times bestselling author, blogger and entrepreneur. His mega hit book, the Subtle Art of Not Giving Up, was a massive worldwide bestseller, selling almost 2 million in the first year alone, I believe it's up to 7 million copies sold now. It's called the Self-Help Book for People who Hate Self-Help. And recently, actor Will Smith discovered the book and recruited Mark to support him on his future book. So now they're writing one together, and Mark also has a new book out right now. And in this episode, we talk about what people don't tell you about success and how to handle success when you have it. Mark's journey working with Will Smith behind the scenes and some incredible stories about Will. Where you can find hope when you've had a big breakdown or setback. What Mark calls the Goldilocks Formula for Pain and how to prevent burnout in work and life. It seems like so many people are stressed and overworked these days. So how do you avoid this while chasing big goals and big dreams. Very excited. Make sure to let me know that you're listening. Tag me on Instagram and you can tag Mark Manson as well over there and let us know what you think. I'm sure he would love to hear from you. Lewis house.com/793 the School of Greatness is.

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Big thank you to our sponsors and I am so excited about this interview. Without further ado, let me introduce you to the one and only Mark Manson.

Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness podcast. We've got the legendary Mark Manson. Dancing in the house, my man. Good to see you, brother. Super pumped you're back on. Because when we had you on about a year and a half ago, I think, a year, year and a half ago, the book had done like two million copies.

Yeah.

And now you tell me seven and a half million worldwide, is that the number?

Yeah, seven and a half million worldwide.

So for those who haven't seen subtle art of not giving a, the book is everywhere, every bookstore, every Target, Costco, Airports, everywhere you go, you see the book.

I mean, if you were on a camel in Nepal, you'd probably see it.

You'd see it. Someone would have it in their backpack. They'd be like, Screw life, screw the 9 to 5. Yeah, it's everywhere. So congrats on all the success. Thanks, man. Seven and a half million copies. How many people have sold over seven.

Million copies of a book? It's probably like less than a thousand books. Yeah, I have no idea. I think it's, I saw a list once of all of the The 10 million copies sold books in the last like 20 years and there was only like eight of them or something.

Oh my gosh. You could hit there in the next year or two probably.

Hopefully, fingers crossed.

Incredible, man.

You never know. I try not to like- Project. Yeah, I try not to get too attached to it.

Are you seeing week after week sales are growing still or is it kind of steady?

They peaked, I would say mid last year. Like, yeah, mid or early 2018. It's kind of slowly, like, so now they're, they're like very gradually coming down. Like now I'm, I think like 30 on Amazon, whereas before I was like 10.

So as opposed to 100,000 a week, it's like 70,000 copies a week.

I wish.

But at some point you were doing that probably, right?

You know, holiday season gets really good.

Yeah, yeah.

But, yeah, I mean, it's, It's still doing super well. I mean it's still on the Times list and everything.

It's amazing.

How many weeks on the list?

120 weeks?

120 weeks on the New York Times.

Yeah, yeah. Crazy. Is there any other book?

I guess five love languages. Oh, five love languages is like 400 weeks. Forever, forever, yeah. I mean there's some Gladwell stuff was, yeah.

You know, it's amazing. I don't, yeah. It's amazing, yeah. I had Rachel Hollis on and she's, you know, she's killed. She's one and two on the New York Times list recently for her new book. I think she sold three million copies or something of her book in a year, which is crazy.

I feel like, so when my next one comes out, I feel like her and I are gonna just monopolize the whole time. Just every list.

First four books will be you guys.

Yeah, in some order.

It's amazing, man. I wanted to ask about this, 'cause we were talking before we started recording about the Liz Gilbert conversation, how she did this TED Talk, I think it was a while ago, about how when she Eat, Pray, Love came out, I think it's sold 10 million copies. And she had this realization that her best work is behind her. And maybe it's not her best work, but her best selling work. And we are saying now, there's nothing that prepares you one, for being a huge success and blowing up. You wanted it to be, but you weren't sure that it would be this big. And then two, how do you handle almost knowing that it's gonna be so hard to recreate the same success or greater for the rest of your life.

Well, you just accept that you're not. Maybe I will, but I can't. You just have to accept. A book like this and a book like Eat, Pray, Love, it's such a, it's not even once in a lifetime. It's books like this come around once every five years. It's like getting struck by lightning twice in a row. And so if you aim to do it twice, you're just gonna drive yourself insane. 'Cause there's just so much that's outside of your control. And so for me, what actually kind of got me out of the fetal position every day was just accepting that, you know, it's like, I'm probably never gonna have a book that's gonna do that well. I'm still gonna do very well. My other books can sell very well and can be great and can help a lot of people. You can't get too attached to that number because you're just, you're gonna torture yourself for the rest of your life. So yeah, I had to learn to let go of it. I had to learn to be like, you know, it's great that it did that. I'm extremely proud of it, but it's gotta move on, gotta find the next thing.

Right.

The new challenge.

I think of the, Olympic gymnast, like this 15 year old Olympic gymnast that wins the gold medal.

Yeah.

Where it's like your greatest moment where a billion people watched you when you're 14, 15, 16 years old.

Yeah.

You're on the COVID of every magazine. You're the talk of every talk show when you win the medal. And then what do you do the rest of your life?

Yeah.

You will never recreate that. And you did this at 15, 16, 17. And how does someone like that who has such big success accept yourself? You know, it sounds easy, you just have to accept, but how do you really, how do you accept yourself? And this is like first world problem, like oh, you won the gold medal as an author.

Yeah, yeah.

How do you, but you're gonna live a long life, you know, is the goal.

And I'm gonna write a dozen more books.

Exactly.

And some of them will flop and others will be best sellers. And so, If everything, if subtle art is just always my metric, I've got a lot of decades of like misery in front of me, you know? It's just, you have to be realistic about it. And I think the other thing too is understanding that I did some mental jujitsu and I was asking myself, what's more valuable to the world? Is writing a book that affects a million people a little bit, or 10,000 very profoundly. Deeply. You know, who's to say which one of those two things is better or more important, more valuable? Sure, selling a million copies is sexier. You know, it gets you more attention, you do more interviews, but there's a strong argument that affecting 10,000 people very deeply is arguably a more valuable contribution to the world. And so I started thinking of things in that way. It took me a long time to kind of detach myself from that because it's, I think when you're starting out as a writer, and this is probably true with podcasting and everything, it's like you love seeing the numbers go up. You know, it's like every year, the number is higher than the year before. And it feels good, it motivates you, you feel inspired. You're like, hell yeah, I'm growing, I'm getting better. And at some point though, like, once that number gets high enough, you gotta let go of it. You just, you gotta let go of it because it's not sustainable once it's that high. You're gonna run out of oxygen. It was a difficult process to kind of get back to like, okay, I need to write a book. Step one, write a book I love. Because when I started, so this next book, everything is. I started out, I was like, all right, you know, I gotta, I gotta keep the train going, you know? And so I, I like, started trying to write stuff that, you know, I thought subtle art readers were gonna really love. And, and yeah, it just, it felt very empty. It started to feel like, like a job. Which, yeah, which I didn't become an author to have a job. I became an author. So, you know, I can do what I love. And, and I just kept scrapping it. I'm like, no, no, no, no, this is, this isn't going well. And eventually I did just get back to like, okay, I need to write for myself first.

Yeah.

Then once I have a book that I'm proud of, that I think is great, then I can look at it and say, okay, how can we maybe change this or market this so that it'll sell a lot of copies? That's step two. But step one, it always has to be in a creative process, it always has to be about yourself first. Otherwise, it's not art anymore. It's not, it kills the meaning, you know? Right, right.

So, so you went through a process of huge success, but it also sounds like a little sadness and forcing yourself to try to create the next hit because of the pressure from publisher or whatever you had and the deal you had.

Yeah.

And not being satisfied with the results you were creating.

Yeah. I mean, it's, there was definitely external pressure, you know, publisher and everybody, but there was a lot of internal, you.

Know, it's, yeah, of course.

I want to see my number go up. I want my 20 to be bigger in my 2018. And it's at a certain point you can't control that anymore. The other thing that happened, and it's funny because I think it was around the time I was here because I think we talked like a year after it was out or something, a year and a half after it was out. I actually got really bummed out, which is something I thought I was insane at the time. This is one of those things people don't tell you about success, is that if you have this dream for like your whole life, and then you accomplish that dream, you don't have a dream anymore. And that's terrifying because it's, you wake up and you're like, oh crap, what do I do with myself? You know, it's like, okay, I got a lot of money and I got a lot of fans, but like, I don't know what to dream for anymore. And so I went through this period for about six months where I was just like really like, wow, man. What's the point of all this? You know, like what? I worked so hard for 12 years to get to this point and what? Just to play Zelda all day? Like, is that it? You know, is this it? I'm 33, you know, like is this really all it's gonna be?

'Cause you'd written how many articles for your website?

Hundreds, thousands. I started in '07.

Wow.

Online. So yeah, and it took, the way I describe it is that it took time to find new dreams, new things to, new visions for like the future that I want for myself. And it's funny because since I went through that, I've got, I've got a group of friends who are like in the startup world and out in New York. I know a couple guys who have like exited, had really successful exits.

They go through depression also or like a sadness.

And yeah, I remember talking to one of my buddies about it and I was like, yeah, man, I'm really bummed out and I feel insane. I feel like a crazy person. And he was like, oh yeah, that's normal. He's like, yeah, startup guys go through that when they exit their company because he's like, yeah, you wake up every single day for 10 years for a certain reason and then that reason's gone. And so you just lay in bed and you're like, well, shit, what am I gonna do today?

Yeah, after you spend the money on a few fancy toys or the trips or whatever, then you're like, okay, now what's my purpose?

Yeah, it's fun for like a month, you know, it's take the wife to Paris, you know, go to a fancy restaurant or two, take your parents somewhere, and then you just kind of sit on the couch and you're like, now what?

Yeah, I think dreams are some of the most important things. And when we don't have a dream, we don't have a mission or a purpose in life. And I remember a similar feeling when I was playing, when I was doing the decathlon in college. It was my goal to be an All-American. So I had to qualify for the national championship first, and that was a process of qualifying. Then I got to the national championship and I had to place in the top eight to be an All-American. So my whole goal was like, how do I get number eight? Because I was brand new at the decathlon. I just started practicing six months prior.

Wow.

I was like, I just need to get eighth place and it doesn't matter.

Yeah.

No one's gonna know if I'm eighth or first. It's just all American. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember I got eighth place and I was on the podium and I got my, you know, trophy or whatever, and I was very emotional and I had these mixed feelings. And about 10 minutes after, I was really angry.

Really?

My parents were there, my coaches, like, it was a big celebration. And I was at the dinner table and I just didn't want to be around anyone.

Yeah.

I was kind of a jerk. I was just like, didn't want to look anyone in the eye. I was frustrated because I think I realized I didn't know what I was gonna do next.

Sure.

It's like everything I've been working for so dedicated every morning, it happened and now what?

Yeah.

And that's the scariest thing.

Well, and it's some of that anger too, it's because when you do accomplish that goal or that dream, and it's like, let's be honest, the reality is never as nice as it was in your head.

Feeling you don't really get the feeling that you were looking for.

Yes, yes. And you're the same person and you've got the same problems, same insecurities, and you just worked your ass off for this thing that's, you know, and it's gone within hours. You know, the feeling is gone.

You think it's gonna give you something.

Yeah, or change you in some way. And it's like, no, you wake up the next day and you're the same dude.

You still feel like a piece of.

Crap in your mind.

You still feel like you're trash or whatever it may be.

But it's funny because everything we're talking about, so I gotta fit the new book in here. Everything is a book about hope. So kind of going back to bringing these two threads together, I eventually reached the point where I was like, you know, I pitched a bunch of book ideas to my publisher and they're like, oh, it's on brand and this is great, you know, it's gonna be a good follow-up or whatever, and it just nothing was working. And then I reached that point where I'm like, I gotta go back to basics. I gotta write something that's true to myself. My formula through my whole career has always been, my writing is basically just a very public form of therapy. So like whatever issues I'm going through, I write it out. And I write it out in such a way that, you know, hopefully other people can get something out of it as well.

That's for me for the podcast too. I even write for the people that I need the most help with.

Yeah.

You know, on relationships or business or whatever it may be.

Totally. I went back to him like, all right, let's start out by writing about what I'm struggling with. And so that's where the whole theme of hope came in. I didn't know what to hope for anymore. And that, strangely enough, that caused me to be just as depressed as low points in my life, where I had no money and my girlfriend left me, and I also had nothing to hope for. And so it made me realize that What's going on in the material world is totally not the point. It's a side effect. What matters is do we have that vision of hope in our mind? Do we see a possible future for us to step into that will make our lives better? And as soon as you take away that vision, we don't know what to do with ourselves. And we despair, essentially. So that's the starting point of the book is how we need to constantly be constructing these dreams and these visions for ourselves and what happens when they're taken away and how are they taken away?

Or if we achieve them and they're.

Taking them and they're no longer there. Yeah, achieving them is one way of taking them away.

Taking them away.

Isn't that interesting?

Yeah.

And then of course I get into.

All sorts of other stuff, but it's, it's. So how does someone develop a sense of hope when they feel stuck or when they feel they've gone through a big breakdown in their life?

Yeah.

You know, whether it be the relationship, the career, the money.

So I think that's where a lot of kind of the classic self-help advice comes in. You know, you start with something simple and small. You set small goals. You staRt step, take one thing at a time. Start with yourself, treat yourself better, you know, get good sleep, eat a little bit better, you know, start with basic habits and goals. Yeah. And then they start to build upon themselves. And the funny thing was, is that It was the exact same with my issue too. It's like, like I said, I basically just sat around and played Zelda for like three months. And like... And it was strangely just like one of the most awful periods of my adult life. But I was like, I'm living the dream, right? This is the dream, right? You know, like trying to convince myself. But yeah, it was the same thing. It's like, all right, man, get back in the gym. Take on some new projects. I told my agent I'm like just go find me something like anything, you.

Know Is that when Will Smith came about?

No, go find me anything. Yeah, go find me anything. She's like oh, I got Will Smith for you. No, he came a little bit later, but it was you know, I was working my way out of this, you know by the time his people contacted me so. Gotcha.

So how How do we develop a sense of hope for ourselves? How do we, you know, create a new vision, a new dream, a new game plan? Yeah. Moving forward in any moment that we feel stuck.

The two things that I talk about in the book is one, you need to develop a sense of values. You need to essentially value something. So for you to have any vision of hope in the future, something needs to be better or worthwhile. It needs to be valuable.

It's the life you're looking to create.

Yes. And it can be anything. It can be helping out the kids at the local school. It can be building a company. It can be buying a new car, whatever. But it's something needs, you need to decide that something is more valuable than what you have today. And oddly, a lot of people struggle with that. They don't know which way to go. They don't know what a better life would look like.

Or they want to do so many things that they do nothing. I've seen that also. It's like, well, I love this and that and all these other things. I don't know which direction to go.

Yeah. And so they don't go anywhere. So it's like you got to pick that one thing that is kind of the central value in your life. And then the second component is that you need to feel that you're capable of getting there. If I decided that the goal of my life is to be the prime minister of Czechoslovakia. You know, it's, that's not gonna happen. That's just unrealistic. And so if you have this vision that is just completely detached from reality, it, and you see this a lot. People will pick goals or dreams that are just so out there that it gives them an excuse to, to not do anything. It's like, oh, well, there's no way I can make it anyway, so I might as well just. sit around and eat Doritos or whatever.

Play Zelda all day.

Exactly, exactly. It's like, I'm not gonna sell 10 million books again, so I'll play Zelda. So it's about finding a vision that can kind of bring both of those things together. It's about being realistic about who you are, where you are, and then also having a solid, making a solid decision about like what is better in the world, what is a worthwhile pursuit. for your life.

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So that's the first kind of step is figuring out what that is for you, the better value.

Yeah.

But not being so unrealistic. But I think you also want to be like, you want to push yourself a little bit, too, probably. Right.

Totally.

Yeah.

Because then otherwise you're not improving.

You don't want to be a safe thing. Yeah. I want to do a little bit scary.

Yeah.

Like, oh, that's challenging. Let me go after that.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, and one thing I talk about later on in the book is that there's kind of like, I think there's a Goldilocks amount of stress and pain in our lives. If there's no pain in our lives, then there's no sense, like you said, there's no sense of sacrifice that there's anything valuable that we're working towards. And so then we lose hope, we lose meaning.

So you're saying we should experience pain in this process?

Yes.

How much pain should we experience?

Well, it's the Goldilocks thing. So it's, if you have no stress or pain, then everything is just gonna feel meaningless because you're not actually sacrificing, you know, you're not actually like giving anything up to achieve something. But if you have too much stress or pain, then you become traumatized and you damage yourself. There's a sweet spot of like, you want enough stress and pain so that it gives you that sense of meaning and accomplishment, but you don't want too much that you give up and cave in. And that's not simple. I mean, it's. It's something kind of listening to your.

Body, listening to your heart. Yeah. Make sure you're checking in with yourself every. Every week.

Yeah. Well, and the perfect metaphor is like working out. You know, it's like if you go into the gym. you walk on the treadmill. Like we've all seen those people who like come in the gym and like are walking like one mile an hour on the treadmill on their phone, you know? It's like, that's not a workout. You're not getting anything out of it. But at the same time, if you go in the gym and you just destroy yourself for hours.

Can't walk for two weeks.

Yeah, you're gonna get injured. You're gonna, you know, it's gonna backfire. So it's the same thing with our psychology. If we're too pampered, if everything's too easy, if everything's given to us without any reward or effort, We essentially remove a sense of value from our lives and that removes a sense of purpose. And so that causes a crisis of hope. People struggle with depression and anxiety and things like that.

When things are too easy, we don't have as much hope is what you're saying.

Yep.

Wow.

Yeah.

So what are you doing now that you've got all these first world problems? Life is very comfortable. Everyone wants to talk to you. Will Smith's knocking on your door to write books. you've got all the food and luxury in the world. How do you develop, how do you create pain for yourself? It's almost like you have to force it.

You do. I mean, you really do, especially once you, and this is actually one thing I talk about in the book is that as, because there's a little bit of a paradox going on in society today, which is we're by most metrics, we're safer, healthier, wealthier, living longer than ever in human history. There are fewer wars, there are fewer diseases, yet everybody's like freaking out constantly, you know, is anxious, overwhelmed, stressed, depression, anxiety, yes. Medications, suicide, drug overdoses, everything. And then you look at like all the political crap that's going on, you know, so it's people are just, there's like this almost fever pitch thing happening in society, despite the fact that everybody, like everything is actually the most comfortable it's ever been. And so one of my arguments is that the more comfort and luxury we experience, the more we have to be selective. Like we have to consciously choose our discomforts and our stresses. Back in the day, if you were like a farmer in the 1800s or if you're like a subsistence farmer out in India, like you don't have to worry about any of this stuff. You get up and work every day. Your vision of hope is I need to feed myself and my family and I need to get up to work every day or else we're all gonna starve. You know, so it's a very simple, it's very easy for that farmer to find meaning in their life. But when you're like living in a nice condo in LA and you've got like awesome opportunities happening and cool new sushi restaurants opening everywhere and awesome vacations down in Tulum, like- Postmates every day.

Just giving you food.

Yeah, exactly. It gets, you have to seek out that stress because if you don't, if you don't pick those things to challenge and stress yourself, you're going to start succumbing to all the little things. You know, you're going to start throwing a fit if the Postmates guy doesn't bring enough forks. You know, you're like, this is bullshit. I'm going to call the manager. Like, you know, it's like, dude, that's not a real problem. You know, you need to start, and this is what I talked about in subtle art. You need to start picking your problems. So, I've really experienced this the last few years as my life gets even more luxurious and easier. Like, I have to be a lot more conscious about choosing my struggles, choosing what pain I want to put myself through in my life. Because if I don't, if I don't choose that pain, then I'm gonna be back on the couch playing Zelda. Yeah. What are the pains that you're choosing for yourself? So, one thing I'm doing, I'm doing a speaking tour this summer. And that's terrifying. That's like, I think I'm doing like 14 cities, theaters with like a thousand people, hour long talk. I'm mortified. I'm like absolutely mortified. But it's good because it's like, I'm pushing myself and I'm pushing like pushing my skills and my ideas. And we joke about Will Smith knocking on your door. Like dude, that's a lot of pressure, man. Like, you get a guy like him and he comes to me and he's like, Hey man, I want to write a book about, I just turned 50 I want to write a book about my legacy. And it's like, that's on me. It's like, don't fuck this up. But that's all good pressure. It's good stress and it's good fear because these are the fears that I want. This is the stress that I want. And so I think it's so important today that I think as a culture, we're just getting away from that. Everybody wants to be coddled and protected all the time. And it's like, you can't. like, not only can you not be coddled and protected all the time, but it will backfire. You know, the more you're protected, the more your feelings are always protected, the more sensitive you're going to get to every little thing that goes wrong in your. Yeah.

I think Jordan Harbinger, when I had him on, he said, don't protect your kids.

Yeah.

He's like, don't keep your kids safe. Obviously, I want to keep them safe, but he's like, sure, don't protect them from their vulnerabilities. Like, allow them to get stronger.

Yeah.

Through the pain.

Yep.

You know, and the stronger they become, the more resourceful they'll be independently in the future. It's interesting because I think a lot of people want to play safe and I'm always looking for ways personally to challenge myself physically, mentally, emotionally, every day. Even if you just do a hard workout a day. Sure. Tiffany, who's running the video over here, she gets up at 5:00 a.m. and runs at least three miles every morning. Jeez. And she posts about it and it inspired me because I'm like, man, did I miss my workout today?

Yeah.

She's getting up at 5:00 a.m. and doing this workout. Yeah. It's like, it's inspiring. And that can be all you need to do for the day. You don't need to freaking crush every part of your day and lean into all this pain emotionally, physically, mentally. But if you focus on something every day where it's painful, you're like, I'd rather sleep in for an hour. I'd rather not run this far. I'd rather not write this many pages of my new book. I'd rather just play games. I think any way we can push ourselves just a little bit more, is going to make us more fulfilled as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

So how did this Will Smith thing come about? You know, Subtle Art Crushing, a few million copies sold, and he just gets your cell phone and calls you. His agent, he, you reached out to him first?

No, no, no, no. So he's actually, he's been looking to do a book for a while. Yeah. And he read, I think his manager read Subtle Art, gave it to him, he read it and really liked it. so then he kind of tapped his team, said, yeah, go, let's talk to this guy. This was, I think it was late 2017. I was actually out here. I went down the Sony studio. Well, first I had some phone calls, and then I went down the Sony studios, met with his team, and it was pretty intense. But it's, it makes sense because they're, like, checking my values. You know, it's like, if he's gonna share his life with me and we need to make sure that our values align and. So we got along it went great and then they told me they were like okay cool so I think the next step is for you to actually like meet Will and see if you guys fill it out get along well and I was like cool awesome They said you know, we'll be in touch. It's like okay like four months go by really don't hear anything crickets crickets I'm like alright and the whole time in my head. I'm like alright. I'm not gonna you know, don't count your eggs before they, your chickens before they hatch, or whatever the saying is. It's like, I'm just not gonna expect anything and I'll just be glad if it happens.

So, so you're playing Zelda for four months?

Yeah.

I'm like, please call Will, please call. And so, suddenly I get an email and they're like, hey, so Will wants to meet you. We wanna fly you out to London. 'Cause he was doing the Aladdin movie. I was like, okay, cool. Yeah, just let me know when, I'll check my schedule.

And then they come back.

This was, like, on a Tuesday, and they come back tomorrow. They're, like, Thursday, like, two days from now. And I was like, are you people insane? You know? And so I had a conflict, you know, I had, like, an event or something. I'm like, I can't go.

And they're like, oh, okay.

And then, like, two months later, two months go by. Two months later. Yeah. And then. And then they come again, and they're like, like, okay, so you're gonna. You're gonna fly out to Miami, and you're gonna meet them. And this time I was ready, and they're like, you know, tomorrow. I'm like, cool, I'm in. Ticket never comes. And we kept going through this for like months. Really? And I actually haven't talked to them about it, but I'm pretty sure it was intentional. It was to see if I would basically be a prima donna. Like, if I'd be like, this is bullshit, you don't respect my time. Like, how can you, like, how can we collaborate if you're not even gonna like, his life is so crazy and his schedule is so crazy and like he can literally just get on a plane and fly to another continent for an afternoon and then fly back like that they need to make sure that I'm gonna be okay. You know, like I'm not gonna take it personally if he gets on a plane and goes to Africa and I'm like just twiddling my thumbs on the runway. Like I'm not gonna get upset about it. So finally about After about six or eight months of this, they said, Can you come down in two days? I'm like, yeah, plane ticket comes through.

Finally.

And I'm like, All right, here we go. So I went down to Georgia and met him on-- he was on the set of Gemini Man. And, yeah, he comes out just fresh prints, man. Same as ever.

Having a fine time.

Just goof from the first moment. He's just goofing off. like just totally goofing, joking, laughing, nicest guy in the world. And then yeah, I ended up, I spent about four days with him and it was no pressure. It was just, you know, talk, get to know each other. And then at the end of those four days, it was actually funny. We were at dinner with like a group of like 10 people and I'm sitting across from him like this and we're all just having like a nice relaxed dinner. And all of a sudden in the middle of the meal, I was going home like the next afternoon. In the middle of dinner, he just looks at me and he's like, so Mark, we got a book or what? And I'm like, the whole room goes silent and I'm like, oh shit. And I told him, I was like, well, I've got some ideas, but let me write them up and I'll show them to you in the morning. And he's like, All right, man, let's do it. And so run back to my hotel room and I'm like, shit, shit, shit, you know. What are my ideas? Yeah, yeah, it's like, okay, I gotta, Gotta come up with an idea. No, I did have an idea that I felt really good about. So I went back to the hotel room, wrote it up, met him for breakfast, pulled out my laptop, showed him a brief outline. Yeah, within 30 seconds he was like, this is it.

Wow.

This is it. Yeah, he's done. Wow.

That's pretty inspiring, man.

It's crazy. It was absolutely crazy.

Wow.

Yeah.

What can you share about the book and the interviews you've done with him and the whole process since that moment? Did you guys take it to a publisher right away? Did it take another eight months? I mean, what was the process like?

That was about a year ago. So we did publisher pitches in the summer. So he and I met up about once a month for three or four months just to get a proposal together, get like an outline, a proposal. For people who don't know, I know you know. The process of making a book is you write out kind of like a 20 to 30 page proposal, which is you've got an outline, you have a sample chapter, you have maybe an introduction, and then you take it to all the publishers and they bid on it. They give you, they offer you a certain amount of money or whatever. So we did that and then he came here to New York over the summer and we did, we took all the publisher meetings and it was funny.

Because it's- Together you did it.

Yeah, we did it together.

What was that like? Being in a room with him just being like, yeah.

No, it's being in the room with him, it's, I always tell my friends it's like an alternate universe because it's just the, the attention, like the energy and the attention just, there's like this vortex around him in any room that he goes into. I mean, part of it is just the level of his charisma, but part of it's the celebrity thing, part of it's, like if he goes into a hotel lobby, It's just bananas. People forget they're working. Security guards leave their post to come take a selfie. It's crazy. It's completely nuts. So the publisher meetings were really funny because a lot of them were very starstruck. A lot of them brought teams of 12 people.

Oh my God, just to meet him.

Just to meet him.

And you're like- Usually like four.

Yeah, and it's like, okay, these three people need to be here. Those nine definitely do not. But, you know, so it was a little bit of a circus, but it was a hell of an experience. I mean, and you know this too, like when you and I pitch to a publisher, you know, you schlep out to New York, you get in a taxi, you go to their office, you like show up, you're like, here's my idea, you know, you try to sell it to them and you get maybe 10 minutes at most, 15, And then you hop back in a taxi and you go to another office and we basically just posted up in a penthouse in a hotel and they just shuttled all these publishers. No way.

They came to you guys.

They came to us. We had multiple rounds of bidding. So I think like 23 publishers bid on it the first round and then we took the top six and went to the second round. So it was just Wow. Surreal. I mean, the whole time I was just like enjoying the ride.

This is so much fun. No pressure on you.

Yeah, I'm just like, yeah, I'm gonna.

Be writing it, but he's the guy, yeah.

Like, he'll sell it. He'll sell the shit out of it. So.

What were the lessons you learned from an author perspective on how to approach publishers differently? Whether you're a big star like Will Smith or not, how could you take that lesson going into your next pitch alone.

So actually, one of the cool things about hanging out with Will is it's, I'm learning a lot from him too along the way. And a lot of it's not stuff that's gonna be in the book. A lot of it's just kind of business sense type things. He's been in the entertainment biz for, since he was 17. And he's been at the top of music, TV, film, everything. And so one, I remember one time he was telling me, he said that after they did Bad Boys or in the early 90s when he was like, Bad Boys was like his, for everybody remembers Independence Day, but Bad Boys was actually like his first feature film that like kind of blew up. He said that after they did Bad Boys, him and Martin Lawrence, he said that the studios were really unsure if they could, if it would sell well internationally. And so Will went to the studio and he was like, hey man, any country you want me to go to, like, I'm in, let me know. And so the studio started sending him to London, to Germany, to Russia, to South Africa, and he'd do every trip. You know, he'd hop on the plane, fly to London, do a premiere, do like 20 interviews, hop back on the jet, fly back to LA. He'd do that on the weekends while filming Fresh Prince. and he said that Martin Lawrence didn't want to do the traveling. And then he said that what he noticed when it came time to do the next movie, he started like studios started giving him much nicer offers and giving him a lot more attention. And he said that what he learned is he said that it's being an actor, the job isn't the movie. He said the movie is only half of your job as an actor. the other half is you got to go out and sell it to people. And I really took that to heart because it's a perfect, it's the same way in publishing.

As an author.

Totally. And there's so many authors out there who spend two years on their book and then they're like, well, okay, I'll post it on Twitter, but why should I have to do anything? You know, you guys should go do it. And so my approach, especially this time around, is like, this is part of the job. You know, and even with subtle art, I kind of griped and complained a little bit, you know? It's like, man, I'm doing all these podcasts and like, what the hell is.

My publisher doing for, you know? And it's like, what is this School of Greatness show?

Yeah. Who's this Lewis guy? God. But now you're doing this tour. Yeah, I'm doing a tour. I'm doing, and it's my attitude this time around has completely changed. It's like, this is part of the job. This is part of why they're paying me. So, I flew out here to LA.

On my own dime.

I'm doing like seven podcasts and YouTube shows. on my own. I'm not asking for anything. I'm not like, not sitting around demanding more attention and it's like, no, this is part of the job.

Luckily you got lots of dimes saved up. You can get out here on your own dime.

I could do a few LA trips.

So that's interesting. Yeah, I've heard him talk about that before where he's like known for being one of the people that stays the longest on like the red carpet. The red carpets like him and Tom Cruise would like have battles to see who could stay the longest to sign the most autographs, take the most photos, and he would always lose, I guess, to Tom Cruise or something. Yeah, yeah. He would stay there for 24 hours just like taking photos until he saw Will Smith leave. That's cool. So that's one big lesson. What other lesson have you learned from him so far?

'Cause now you spent like 30 hours with him, I think you said. Yeah, I've done a number of trips with him. There's a lot of little life things. You know, he told me it was funny because this fall, so when I was finishing, like my book that's coming out next week, when I was finishing everything was fucked, I actually, let me back up for a second. So this fall, he, typical Will style, like just, I got an email from his manager saying like, Hey, you wanna go, like you wanna do a trip with Will next week? And I'm like, yeah, of course, where are we going? And she's like, India. and then Dubai. And oh, he's gonna race like F1 cars. And I was like, okay, like, I'm in, all right. So I end up on like five days notice, I end up on this two-week trip with Will to India and Dubai. And so I'm doing Will's book, I'm finishing my book, I'm doing this project for Audible, I'm doing like an Audible original, and I'm running a website with 2 million readers. And I'm in the middle of India with Will, and I'm jet lagged out of my mind. And so there was a few months this fall where I was probably the most stressed I've been since I started my business. Just not sleeping, constant anxiety, just working insane hours. And so I'm like this huge ball of stress, and I get on this plane and I'm in the middle of India with Will.

Private jet?

Yeah, well once you get there, it's private jets. But so I'm sitting there on the jet with Will.

So stressed out on the jet with Will.

Yeah, yeah.

My life is so hard.

But like, I'm sitting there with Will and we were talking about his career in the 90s. So he would film Fresh Prince during the week, fly somewhere to do some promotional thing on the weekends, and then during breaks in between the seasons is when he would he would film his next movie. So, I mean, he's just basically going seven days a week. Oh, and he's like recording music, Big Willie Style, and the soundtrack, the Men in Black, and like all this stuff. So I asked him, I kind of told him the situation I was in. And I asked him, I'm like, I told him, I said, I feel like I'm in kind of like one of those situations where I've got like movie, TV show, and album going on at the same time. except for me, it's book, book, audiobook.

Yeah.

All at the same time. And I was like, how the hell do you do it? And. And he just kind of laughed. And he's like, you know what? You know what the trick is? I said, what? He's like, what you do is you just bite off more than you can chew. He said, agree to do more than you think is possible. And then you just go do it. And it's. It sounds so simple, but it was like one of those moments where just, like, a switch clicked in my brain, and i'm like, wow, that's crazy, because. You like, we all know we're capable of doing so much more than we actually do, but the only way you can really tap into that is to just over commit. Like just over commit yourself and you find a way. Like you just find a way to do it. And so he's like, yeah, man, you just bite off more than you can chew and start chewing it.

Yeah, you probably eliminate a lot of the downtime that wastes time too. You're not playing video games for three hours a day. No, you're not watching TV. Focused.

Yeah, it, yeah, it, and it's purely out of necessity. Like it's just pure, like on that India trip, I was up at, I mean, I was jet lagged, but I was up at 4:00 a.m. Writing my book for six hours before meeting up with him and then spending the afternoon with him, you know, and then when I would go back to my hotel at night, my team in the US was waking up. So I would check in with them on the website and then I'd go to bed and then I'd wake up at four crank on my book for six hours, go meet up with Will, work with him for a few hours, go back to the hotel, check in with my team. And I did that the entire trip. And if you had asked me, like, if I was capable of doing that two years ago, I would have been like, are you insane? Like, that's absolutely. But it's just, I see when I'm with him, I see him do it. Like, he'll go film all day. and then he'll come back to the house and meet with his social media team and plan videos for that month until like 10 o'clock. And then he'll go to bed and he'll be up at five working out. And it's like that's just, he's been doing that for 30 years.

It's a machine, man.

For 30 years.

What about someone who's listening who says, well, it doesn't sound like a very balanced life. And that's gonna create overwhelm and burnout and stress that is gonna, you know, ruin everything for me.

I think that's a really good point. 'Cause I've had periods in my life where I have worked kind of insane 16-hour days or whatever, and it's just exhausting and stressful and everything else in my life kind of falls apart. Whereas with him, he somehow does it like gracefully. And I think-- He's got a family.

He'S married, he's got-- yeah.

And I think part of like, you know, just watching him do it, it's a few things. One, he's very good at delegating. And he has a really cool philosophy about that actually. He's really good at delegating. Two, he manages to kind of mix the things. It's about, I think if you're doing something that really energizes you that you love and then you do that with people that you love, then there's not really a need for balance. Yeah. It's true.

You're doing everything you want all the time.

So you find a way to work the people you love into it or to have them with you while you're doing it. and that's it. That's the secret sauce.

And you said he's got an interesting philosophy on delegation. What is that?

He told me something really cool and it's funny because again it's advice that you hear a lot but it just the way he put it was very powerful. So when you hear people talk about delegation, they're like oh yeah, you should anything that you're not great at, you should like hire somebody who is. And it's like that's fine. He said the same thing but he talked about it in like a moral way. Like he basically said, he's like, if I'm doing something, he's like, I'm world class at a couple things. And so if I'm doing things- Anything else? If I'm doing anything else, then I am ethically, like, is an ethical problem.

He's hurting the world essentially.

Exactly, he's depriving the world of the thing that he's world class at. And he said, if I'm not hiring somebody who's world class at the thing I'm bad at, I'm doing the world a disservice by not them not doing what they're world class.

That is powerful.

I was like, God damn, dude. Yeah, you're right. I'm like, yeah, you're right.

Yeah. Wow, man. What do you think his greatest challenge is?

Oh, God.

Being a superstar that everyone loves, that he gets opportunities left and right. What do you see as like his biggest struggle or a way for him to get to the next level, seeing it from the outside?

Well, I think the challenge for him lately is, and this ties in a lot to what we were talking about with my last book, his biggest challenge the last 10 years has been redefining what the next level is.

Reinventing himself.

Yeah. For years and years and years, it was always bigger movie, next movie, bigger movie. And he hit a point where he was like, I need to I need to change my metric for what the next level is. And that's how this book came about. This is why we're writing the book, is he wants to share that process of, look, I went out and conquered the world, achieved all these things, but at the end of the day, this is how I kind of like, these were my struggles and how I had to kind of reorient my life. in my later years. So it's gonna be an amazing book. It's gonna be an amazing book. It's gonna be his whole life, all the nitty-gritty details that a lot of stuff he hasn't talked about before, and then about kind of how his whole philosophy and mindset has changed the last six or seven years.

Wow, that's cool. If you could give him one piece of advice, what would it be? That would better his life. He said to you, Mark, give me the piece of advice that you think I need. You've seen me for the last year now. You've seen my team, you've seen my delegation process, you've seen me on flights, you've seen me late night, you've seen me have a lot of fun and conquer the world. What piece of advice would you have for me to get to the next level?

I don't know, man. I'm gonna have to pass on that one.

No advice?

You'll have to wait. I think wait for the book.

Wait, we'll wait for the book.

It's not that I don't have anything I would say, but I think it's personal enough and the book's not out.

Sure.

That I would hold on.

When the book's out, and then we'll see the advice. And so this book, Everything is A Book About Hope. Who is this really for? Who needs this right now? And why should they get it right now?

So, the people I wrote the book for, there are two things kind of going on in our culture today. One is what we mentioned, which is the increases in depression, anxiety, suicide, drug overdoses, like all those things are on the rise. I think there's a real lack of, you know, our culture's approach to those issues is either just medicate it or oh, go see a therapist somewhere. We don't want to deal with it. It's not talked about not only depression itself, but why these things are becoming more prevalent. What is it about our culture? Is it the technology? Is it social media? Is it political issues? What is going on that's causing these demographic things to start happening? And then the second one is why do we all seemingly have the feeling that the world is going to hell? Even though it's not. You and I both have to be on social media. I know when you get on, it's like you see the same things I do and everybody else does. Like you would think some days I get on Twitter and you would think that the f*cking apocalypse is upon us, you know? And it's just people freaking out about this or that and they freak out and they argue and they bicker and they, you know, try to tarnish each other and try to ruin each other's reputations and then the next day it's something else. And so the book is also a look at how really, what is it about the way we're getting information that causes these perceptions? You know, that causes, what is it about the internet and the technology that has changed our relationship with our culture so much so that we're like, the feeling is that we're always adversarial. And I think one part, you know, one component, everybody likes to either blame the media or they, everybody likes to blame social media or everybody likes to blame you know, like Facebook or Trump or whoever. And it's, I think there's something underlying all of them. There's like something more fundamental. I think those are all effects of like a more singular cause.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it's deep stuff. Hopefully it's, my goal with it is to just help people chill out a little bit.

Relax a little bit.

Like things like, just find perspective too, probably. Find perspective because I think, I think really the only way we're gonna get through this is by really understanding how our relationship to these technologies affects us emotionally. And it's nobody's fault. It's like, it's just our brains evolved a certain way and that these technologies, they react, they cause reactions that we aren't even aware of.

I just had Cal Newport on recently.

Oh yeah, yeah.

He writes about the deep work essentially digital minimalism. He's not on social media at all. And his thesis is, social media is essentially ruining us. The addictive nature of it keeps us trapped to feel anxiety, to feel stress, to feel comparison, to feel overwhelmed. And it's hard to do meaningful, fulfilling work in our lives when we're constantly in that loop of feeling trapped in a digital Absolutely.

And one thing I talk about in the book is that I really think technology for how great it is, it is developed to take advantage of our psychological flaws rather than compensate for them. So it's like our brains just don't, we're irrational creatures. We've got all sorts of biases and prejudices and all this stuff. And instead of developing technology that like, helps us get over those flaws, the technology taps into them because it makes it more profitable. So it's a look at how that happens, why that happens, and how can we kind of armor ourselves to keep it together.

It's powerful, man. The book, you guys can get the book right now. It's all about hope. If you need help in your life, everything is It's a book about hope. Exciting times, man. You got a lot going on. It's really cool to hear the stories and I'm excited to hear more about how this book, the results of this book, and how you feel in six months to a year from this, your next project with Will Smith, and everything else you have coming out after that. So I'm excited to hear about all this, man. Final two questions. Before I ask the final two questions, I want to acknowledge you again, Mark, for showing up. Because some people, when they hit the top, they can just stop and take it easy and play Zelda for five years. So you did that for a little bit, but now you're showing back up in a better way and you're challenging yourself physically, emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, everything to go beyond where you're at right now in a different way. Maybe it's not hitting the same measure of success, but going deeper. Maybe it's trying a different thing that you're not comfortable with. Sure. And I really acknowledge that for you, man, because it could be super easy to just say, I want to ride.

This for the next five, ten years. Yeah. And, you know, I want to make sure the audience knows, Zelda's a really good game. Yeah. You know, I'm not ripping on Zelda. It's challenging. I'm not ripping on Zelda, but yeah, it's sitting on that couch, man. It's, it's, and again, this is, this is what kind of infuse the new book is like, I, my big discovery after subtle art is like, I'm not happy without challenge in my life. When you remove all the challenge, I break down.

I think most of us are not happy without a challenge. If we're just sitting on a beach every single day, it gets like tiring, it gets boring. I mean, sure, maybe it's nice for a few months if you've been working your butt off for your whole life, but it's like we find fulfillment in the service of others, the challenges we face and overcome, we don't find fulfillment from just laying in a hammock 24/7.

Yep. Absolutely.

Having everything handed to us.

And it's funny 'cause you gotta learn that lesson over and over again. It's, you know, our brain just keeps tricking you. It's like, well, yeah, that's true. But if you do this one thing, then it's gonna be great, you know? And it's like, no, it's never done.

I think it's important to make sure you give your body and your mind time to rest and recover and to be on the beach for a week or two or whatever it may be to reflect, to have that off season to recharge, but that shouldn't be the norm. It shouldn't be every single day. This was called the Three Truths. You answered it last time, but I want to see if you have different truths. I'm not even sure if you remember what your answer is.

I don't. Yeah, I don't.

So now that a year and a half has passed and you've done so many new things, you've learned new things in your life, imagine this is the last day of your life, a hundred something years from now, and you pick the day. and you've accomplished everything.

Yeah.

You achieve everything you want.

Yeah.

You reinvent every year. You have an amazing life.

Sure.

But it's your last day and you've got to, you've got to go. And all of your work has to go with you. So no one has access to your written word anymore.

Yeah.

But you get to leave people with the message, three things you know to be true about everything you've experienced in your life.

Okay.

And this would be the thing that people have to remember you by. Three Lessons or Three Truths by Mark Manson. What would you say? And I'm gonna look back to see what they were last time, but.

I always, man, you always throw like the bomb. Most difficult philosophical questions, as if you're like, so what do you wanna have for lunch today? Three truths.

For what's coming up for you now, from everything you've learned, you know.

I'll say the three truths that are like most salient for me today that I've learned recently or felt very intensely recently. One is definitely that one that I said that like, I need some stress to be happy. Like, it's funny because my 2017, I didn't do a damn thing. Well, I did some things, but like, I sat around a lot and made a bunch of money. And then 2018, I was like working stress out of my mind. And if I had to do one of those two years over again, I'd do 2018. like no question, totally do it again. And that was a big realization that it's like for whatever reason, like I, some stress and anxiety makes me happy, like makes me feel good. So that'd be one. Two, I would say, and again, this might be salient just because we, only because we just talked about it, I would say that there's no actual endpoint to any of this. There's no, There's no one goal that you're gonna be like, awesome, great career.

I'm done.

Yeah, I'm done. Like there's no, you know, it's probably the same thing with kids or family or like there's just the way that we are constructed psychologically is such that we're always mildly dissatisfied. And that's by design and that's what's gotten, you know, that's what's created civilization in the world. And it's, I think it's just important to hold that in our mind and be realistic about it. Don't delude yourself that if you just had this one thing, if you could just go live on an island or if you could just get this car or whatever, that it's, everything's gonna be great. It's not. It's not. Third one, third truth. Oh my God. It's so hard, man. this is why I write books.

I know.

So I can spend a long time thinking. Yeah. And explaining third truth. I think ultimately what matters most is just people is, is, is the connections you make and how connected you feel with others. And so any, any sort of analysis you do in your head in terms like decision making. I think people tend to underestimate human connection and overestimate material success and big numbers and stuff like that. And so whenever you're doing that analysis, just pump, pump, inflate the human connection number a little bit and deflate the material value a little bit.

That's cool, man. I like it.

I'll go with that.

I like it, man. The new book, you guys can get it now. A book about hope. Get one for yourself and a few friends. Come see me on tour. Come see you on tour, markmanson.net. I'll have all the events, I'm assuming, the books, everything that you want to, all the articles, lots of amazing articles there. You're more on social media now. Before you weren't really. You post like once every three months. So now you're more on social media, which is great. So people make sure you share out, tag them when you get the book, let them know that you're getting the book. when you're listening to this interview, make sure you tag Mark as well. Anything else we need to know?

I think that's it.

That's it. Okay. Final question. What's your definition of greatness?

Oh, man.

Let's see if it's changed.

My definition of greatness is just showing up 100% for whatever you value, whatever you care about. Like really just not leaving anything on the table. You know, whether you want to just be the best mom the world has ever seen or the best preschool teacher or lawnmower man, whatever the hell you're doing, you know, it's like, if that's what you're doing and you're showing up fully, putting everything into it and getting better at it consistently, like that's what matters.

Mark Manson, my man.

Good seeing you again.

Appreciate you, man.

And there you have it, my friends. I hope you enjoyed this interview with Mark Manson. Powerful, powerful stuff. Make sure to check out his new book. Follow him over on Instagram and on social media and his blog, of course. This is a big one, guys. Make sure you share it with your friends. Lewis.house.com/793 let me know what you enjoyed the most out of this episode. Tag me on Instagram story, tag Mark as well. And of course, be a hero to someone today by sharing this with one friend. Text them this link or someone that you think this would inspire, this would help, this would improve their life. You can be a hero to one person today by sending them this link on the podcast app or lewishouse.com/793 the way to find more joy in your life is to have a clear direction of where you want to go. or have some goals that allows you to move in a certain direction. Now, the answer is not just in the goals. It's in enjoying the moments every single day along the journey to getting there. Those may be challenging moments. They may be fun. They may be exhilarating moments. But whatever you do, you must look at your goals as a roadmap. As Les Brown says, your goals are the roadmaps that guide you. and show you what is possible for your life. They show you what's possible, but you hold the key to seeing what's possible for your joy and your happiness by enjoying and appreciating the journey along the way. I love you so very much, and you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.

This is Comedy Bang Bang, the podcast, the promo. And in 30 seconds, I'm going to tell you why you should check out the show. I, the host, Scott Aukerman, have a light-hearted conversation with famous celebrities like John Hamm, Allison Williams, Phoebe Bridgers, Jason Alexander, Natasha Lyonne, Bob Odenkirk, just to name a few. Things go a little off the rails when different eccentric characters and oddballs drop by to be interviewed as well. Each week is a blend of conversations and character work from your favorite comedians, as well as some new hilarious voices. Comedy Bang!

Bang!

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