854 Dennis Rodman on Emotions, Individuality and Being Great

This is episode number 854 with five-time NBA champion Dennis Rodman. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

[Speaking of the language].

Grace Jones said, I believe in individuality, that everybody is special, and it's up to them to find that quality and let it live. I am so pumped about this interview because I just watched a documentary, a 30 for 30 documentary on ESPN titled Dennis Rodman for Better or Worse. And it was one of the best documentaries I've ever seen on a person's life. It was riveting. It gripped me from the beginning to the end. There is so much dynamics in it. And I highly recommend you check this documentary out. It's available for streaming on ESPN.com right now. And it reveals the crazy life of Dennis Rodman. And if you were around in the 90s when Dennis Rodman was one of the biggest things in the world, you remember how fascinating his life and interesting and dynamic his life was. And Dennis Rodman is one of the greatest rebounders ever to play professional basketball. During his time in the NBA, he played for the Detroit Pistons, San Antonio Spurs, Chicago Bulls, Los Angeles Lakers and the Dallas Mavericks. And he's a dedicated analyst of the game and a tenacious defender. He led the NBA in rebounding for four consecutive years and helped lead his teams to five NBA championships. However, as career went on, Rodman drew even more attention to his off-court antics. And again, he was one of the most fascinating humans on the planet back in the nineties when all this was going down. He had so much media coverage. It was crazy. And again, he's got this new documentary that shares his journey and reveals the struggles of one of the most talented and enigmatic stars in the game's history. And in this interview, we talk about how he was able to play so consistently despite all of the emotional stress he was under. He talks about his childhood, how stressful his entire childhood was, really until he went away around 20 years old and found a family that he felt like he belonged in. We talk about how showing his emotions was empowering for him as a man and an individual. He often cried publicly and in the media, and he was showing his emotions as a man far early before it was acceptable and seen as okay. We talk about the methods he used to become one of the greatest rebounders of all time and how he visualized this every day. The greatest lesson he learned from his absent father, the power he has found in putting his ego aside and asking for help when he needs it. That and so much more in this riveting interview. I'm so excited for you to listen to this. Make sure to watch the full video over on YouTube as well because, and he really opens up in an emotional way at different points, especially towards the end. So make sure to stick around to the end to hear everything about how dynamic this individual is. Share with one friend today, text a friend@lewis-howes.com/854 or just copy and paste the link on your podcast app where you're listening to this and text one friend, inspire someone today with this message by sending them a message and asking them what they think about this interview. Tag Dennis Rodman over on your Instagram stories while you're listening and @LewisHowes as well, so we can both stay connected to you and hear what you're thinking about during this episode.

One of the best parts about my job as a podcast host is getting to know people on a deeper level. And I love discovering the interests my guests have that they don't always talk about. You know, the world class athlete whose favorite pastime is painting, or the billionaire who still plays a weekend garage band. And the truth is, everyone has layers, and people are rarely as simple as they appear on the surface. For marketers, that complexity can make the job even more challenging. After all, how can you reach your customers if you don't really know them? That's where TransUnion's marketing solutions come in. TransUnion brings clarity to marketing chaos by delivering a 360-degree view of your customer, helping you deepen your insights, accelerate your decision making and better measure the impact of every marketing dollar. Visit TransUnion.com/clarity to learn more. The School of Greatness is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. As Amica says, Empathy is our best policy. That's why they'll go above and beyond to tailor your insurance coverage to best fit your needs. Whether you're on the road, at home, or traveling along life's journey, their friendly and knowledgeable representatives will work with you to ensure you have the right coverage in place. Amica will provide you with peace of mind. Go to Amica.com and get a quote today.

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All right, guys, I'm excited about this. Without further ado, let's dive into this episode with the one and only, the iconic Dennis Rodman.

Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast.

Very excited we've got the legendary Dennis Rodman in the house. My man, thank you for being here. Appreciate it, sir. Cool, man. Very excited you're here. Just watched the 30 for 30. It's unbelievable. It's so inspiring what you've created with your life, with all the challenges you had to overcome. So congratulations on everything.

It was fun.

It was fun.

Long was fun.

It was long?

Yeah.

How long did it take to do the whole documentary?

Well, it took me altogether 15 hours.

15 hours. One day of doing the whole thing.

No, no, no, no, no. It was like five hours one day.

Got you.

Five hours next day like that. But to sit there for five hours to just sit there and talk about, oh my God, dude. Got brain dead. I'm like, you know, it's like when you drive and you get concrete drunk. Yeah. That's what I got over here. Oh my God.

Tonal vision, like, ugh. It's probably the best 30 for 30.

I've seen and I've seen a lot of them, so. I've seen a lot too. I think this is more, like this.

Is more aimed for the new generation. It's amazing. And the music, the storytelling, you know, it's just so dramatic and it just pulls you in. Pulls you right in. It pulls you in. to your life and everything that you've overcome because you've overcome so much. It's crazy, man. It's so inspiring. So congrats.

I think it relates to a lot of people in contents for us, like living in that generation for us in the '60s and '70s and going through those poverty years where I think, you know, like guys like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Julius Erving, the people that was in that genre in the late '60s to the '70s, early '80s, living like that, I think they probably get a good grip of what was going on. you know, within the confines of the situation. But I think the youth of today couldn't really grasp that unless they actually see it. So basically this 30 for 30 is gonna really put them in the mix of how the guys like me that worked our ass off to get to this point. And they don't realize that it wasn't a bed of roses at all to try to get to this point, you know, it's been a lot of highs. and a lot of damn lows.

Yeah.

And so, I think it's gonna hit a lot of kids hard, a lot of athletes hard too.

It's amazing. I think it's like, it's almost like five years of social media in one.

Hour and a half movie.

That's kind of like, if social media was a rap, and you were there. This was like everything, the highlight reel.

I keep telling all my people, it's in penance. What would you have done if social media, Instagram and all these other outlets was out back in the '90s? I said, Well, I'll be a beer.

Ye.

I'll be I'll be a beer. You must be co cocot until I made everything, you know, so, thank God and damn it, maybe we wouldd have.

Flown all the money at the same.

Time, so I I'd probably be part right about that, right it? But I would go on.

Do you think you were, um you were ready for that type of fame and that type of becausecause it was crazy. I mean, everywhere you were like the biggest icon in the nineties, you know.

It was it was massive I think I made a joke about me and Michael Jordan that I was more popular than he was for three years. I bet. On the same team.

Yeah.

The team that he built, but I guess I'm not trying to be like, have the big head, but it was true the fact that I went there, that I was doing things that people in sports wasn't doing at the time. And I was creating a brand without me knowing it was a brand. Yes.

Now people are trying to manufacture it based on what you did.

Yeah, pretty much. I was just doing it for fun. I wasn't trying to make money, nothing like that. I think that once you get in that situation, when you have your head screwed in a certain direction, and then all of a sudden you forgot, oh, damn, I forgot this part. And you're just going 90 miles an hour, and you really don't pay attention about the money and pretty much the fame, but just going with the flow. That was me back then.

We have something in common. You are Dennis Rodman, but I've been calling myself for seven years the Dennis Rodman of Olympic handball. I'm on the USA National Handball Team, and I'm kind of like the bruiser of the team. You know, I don't score all the points, but I've been calling myself that for seven years. So we have something in common.

You're the OG though. OG there. You're the OG. Head ball, really?

Handball, handball. Do you know you, Olympic handball? It's kind of like water polo, but in a basketball court. with no water, if you can visualize that.

Well, handball is more like you hit the ball with your hand.

There's two sports, handball where you hit.

One, two, three, against the wall.

I used to play that in school back in the day, you know, it was in prison. It was that special school.

Right, right.

You know what they do, they hit the all day though. That was the school. So without that kind of handball right there with a glove?

Different handball. So this is like imagine water polo with no water or soccer with your hands. it's on a big basketball court. It's played all over Europe professionally. It's an amateur sport here. That's why I play the sport on the USA team, because there's not many people that play it. And it's an Olympic sport, so it's, it's very physical. It's very fast. It's kind of like basketball and football, but you're throwing a ball into a goal, pass a goalie. So defense is very important, and I'm kind of like the Bruiser that is just trying to cause a ruckus on the court every game. That's how I stay on the team.

By being that role.

Being that role.

I kind of play your role.

My role, right?

And 'cause I don't score a lot.

It's like playing volleyball with your foot.

It's like when you're fighting. Exactly. On the track, right?

So you see that game, right?

Yeah.

They kick with their feet, volleyball. That's crazy. But those guys are doing like backflips over there now. Backflips, yeah. It's something like that, yes. But anyway. So anyways, we have something in common there. But what I really admire about you is that you were consistent in your ability to be great even through the different emotional challenges you were going through. Because I can only imagine the amount of emotional stress you went through questioning things, questioning identity or questioning who are my real friends. But to be able to play at such a high level for so many years, that was impressive.

That was tough.

How did you do it with the emotional stress that you were facing?

I don't know, really. You know, today, It'd be easy today because you have so many distractions. You have so many ways to get out there and just free your mind. A lot of cool things to reboot and refresh yourself. Back then it was more like you had to be full throttle, no matter what. When I say that, it's like you had to have some type of aura about yourself to do certain things. Michael was doing Nike commercials, doing this, shooting movies and stuff like that. He was doing all that. I was doing all that and more. I was doing that, going out to six in the morning, didn't get on a plane, go try to fly and Russell the next night, the next thing, you know, go there, da, da, da. I was just doing all these things at once. And I think maybe once a month, I would have a breakdown, you know, in a locker room after a game, I would, my bodyguard said, Dennis, go on and debrief yourself and stuff like that. So I just go fall on the ground, just let it all out, motion, and just tried to, like, wow, how am I doing this? Bringing both ends of the candle. And I used to do that all the time. I was running damn with them, you know? And it was just funny that the fact that people said, this is all fun, man. You should be happy. You should be this and that. But damn, man, it's a price to pay, you know, because you want to do so much in such a little time. You know, sports is so short-lived. and the days were a bit and athletes don't understand that. Even though the money is good and stuff like that, but it's like, okay, what are you gonna do out the basketball? And I thought about that as I left Detroit when I went to San Antonio, I said, I'm so bored of this game. I'm so bored of life. I need something to have a great, some type of outlet for me to try to enjoy my life out the basketball. So I went to San Antonio, I just started to do certain things. outside the box that most athletes wouldn't dare to do. And I found a new remedy to the founder of you, you wanna call it, to reboot myself to enjoy life again. So thanks for signing Tony for that.

That's great. One of the things that you did differently is you showed your emotions. You cried. You weren't afraid to show that.

No.

And I think that's that was pre like men showing their vulnerability for 20, 30 years pre that now men are coming out more and more. I wrote a book about being vulnerable as a man and the power of being vulnerable. But you were doing this long before. Did you get a did you get made fun of a lot during that when you were a pro athlete and kind of showing this vulnerable side or did people embrace it behind the scenes?

I think a lot of people thought there was something knew. It was like, more this, I didn't think that I was such an individual that was so emotional all the time that he couldn't control his feelings about controlling how to be an adult, how to be a professional player, a professional person in general. So I think they look at me as more like, wow, this guy is not afraid to do anything. And in all the same sense of the word, I didn't know what I was doing. I just, that was my passion to be emotional. I loved it. I loved what I was doing playing sports. I love making people happy. And I think that I brought out, as they say, you're not a real man unless you show emotion. And they used to say those quotes, say those things back in the day. And now you see just why every man on the planet will cry about something.

Yeah.

And not ashamed to do it. And I didn't care if I cried or anything. I just thought that was the way you supposed to live life.

Right.

So, you know, you have emotion, you express emotion. But I think that I, I've crossed over a lot of barriers back in the 90s, 80s and 90s and the early 2000s. It's still probably today. You know, I'm not afraid to show my feminine side as far as a man. I'm not afraid to go to gay clubs. I'm not afraid to interact with the gay community. I think I really opened a lot of doors for the gay community as far as it's concerned. Now you're seeing men today are pretty much coming out and actually showing their livelihoods as far as if they're a man or they're homosexual or they're bisexual or something like that. They actually come out being free now. you know, a lot of people thought I was gay back then when I was doing those, those photo shoots and doing all the drag queens and stuff like that and dressed them as, as a woman, going to a lot of bars and that was content for sports. But even if, if I, if I did come out and said I was gay back then, I think I've probably been the first Rich gay athlete.

Yeah.

Yeah, sure. It could go in all different ways back then. If I could have did a lot of stuff in different ways, but. Now, no one ever called me homosexual gay, like, you know, blatantly like that, but it's more like, when I did the ESPN cover and I dressed up in this drag or terror, they looked at me and said, well, Dennis, you know, we can't do that. That's not appropriate.

And they looked at me like, oh.

Man, that's what I'm wearing. I'm not changing. So I sat there for like two hours. I said, I'm not really with my birds and stuff that talk to each other. I'm just sitting there. I said, what do you guys think? And they were actually talking to me. It's like, what do you think? Ah, well, they just mimed it. The birds were talking. They just talked to each other like this right here. So I'm just waiting till they give me an answer. Two hours later, I said, okay, Dennis, we're gonna shoot it. And I promise you, we're gonna put it on Sports Illustrated cover. We're gonna shoot it. And if you look in your Argyles Sports Illustrated, you see that cover when I'm just all the digging up in the drag and then so gayness in the gay community. I'm like, bondage and stuff like that. I was sexy with the short shorts and stuff like that. I got my bird right there. And it was funny that they said, you know, this can work. And I think I crossed over there as far as in the community and especially in San Antonio. And lo and behold, guess what? It was a bestselling magazine in the history Sports Illustrated. So I think I have three covers like that for Sports Illustrated. So- They should thank you. No, not really. They should pay you more. Pay me more, right?

It's funny, I live in the center of the, you know, the gay community here in LA.

You're right here.

I'm in Boys Town, WeHo. I love it. For me, it's, I've always felt comfortable, you know, whenever I feel insecure about myself, I will just walk down the street and I'll feel good again because of the gay clubs. They're amazing. People are friendly. It's clean, clean. People, it's like good food. I'm like, where else would you want to go? They keep the neighborhood clean, which is what I like too. So I don't mind it at all. But back then, I remember when I was growing up as a kid, when I would just put my, I played basketball, football, track, everything. And when I would just put my arm around another boy, you know, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, didn't matter. They would push me off and say, don't be gay, don't be a fag, don't be a little girl, like, don't touch me. And I just wanted to show affection. I just wanted, you know, someone to like me as well, 'cause I felt very alone. I felt very made fun of. And it was never really accepted. Were you able to show any affection as like a brotherly hug with it being accepted in college or in the pros?

I was just so exuberant just to be doing something cool, you know, and I showed it a lot, you know, when I scored a basket, made a touchdown or something like that, it's nuts. You know, I was like, oh yeah, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool, I'm happy. But it just came naturally for me.

Yeah.

Did you get a lot of ball or you didn't? No, I didn't make fun of it. Nobody really made any type of remarks to me at all. It was more like when I first started doing it, it was in college and people said, oh that's just him, you know, in front of like 500 people, I think I've done 200,000 people. I'm just so happy when I score a basket or block a shot, I'm just so giddy inside. And then when I brought that emotion to Detroit, people embraced that. And they were seeing them come out and just be happy and just.

So.

Enthusiastic about just playing the game. 'Cause most of the time you see most athletes that make a point or get a rebound or die for a ball and they don't react to it. I do. I love it. You know, I'm doing something that makes me happy. I'm doing something that make people happy. I'm doing something that that contribute to make, you know, to win. And that's my whole thing about life. I want to win. I want to be successful. But I know the fact that in my journey, I said my journey had a, had a paid a, paid a price, a big price, because I think.

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The negativity is going to sound kind of up. Without the negativity, I wouldn't be here.

Yeah.

I didn't become Dennis Romero to be good because I was good. It was all the other stuff. that made Dennis Robinson who he is today. And now, by me saying that, if I was good all the way through, I want to leave Detroit. I wouldn't be sitting here. I'm gonna be doing a lot of things.

If you were good all the way through.

All the way through the journey. If I was this good, you know, just straight lace guy all the way through, I think I went clean, nine one out, dude.

Yeah.

No, I think I wouldn't be here today talking to you or talking to anybody doing the same format, you know.

Where would you be?

I couldn't tell you that one. If you were to say that, where would you be when you was 18, 19, didn't have a career, didn't have anything to focus on to be something significant in life? I'd probably be dead in jail. Seriously, just like that. No chance I'll be living today.

What brought you the most joy throughout your time playing professional basketball? What were the moments where you felt the most fulfillment and joy? because you might have had fun. You might have been looked like you're having fun during.

I had fun. I ain't gonna lie about that. I had fun. I think the most enjoyable is the fact that I was able to be free through a lot of that process. Made up my mind, you know, to say, you know, Dennis, life is not that difficult. Life is not that hard. Even though the bumps and the rolls had been bumpy a lot, but now you have opportunity to go in there and say, okay, great. We could do this, we could go this road. We can go and say, okay, I got three hours to do a job that I like to do and be happy. Or I can make it an all-day adventure and be sad and just miserable the rest of my life. I said, okay, great, I'm gonna take that road. I'm gonna take the road where they paid me to do a lot of things. They paid me to make people happy, to do this and do that. And also, I'm happy doing it. and I just put my life in that genre where, okay, great, I'm gonna do three hours. If I don't do three and a half, I subject that. I do that. I said, I got 21 more hours to do. What can I do? I look at like, what am I gonna do? I have fun. Okay, great. This is cool here. Oh man, I got all this time now, stuff like that. So I just looked at like that at the end of my career. I said, well, I had a valuable role.

Yeah. How did you, I mean, in the documentary, it's amazing. People need to watch this.

They really need to watch it too.

It's unbelievable. When you, you know, it shows you just like going out till 5, 6 a.m. every night and then having four hours of sleep, then going to practice and being a gazelle, I think someone said, you just look like a gazelle. You're sprinting, you're passionate, you're happy, all these things. How did you do that mentally? How did you focus right before practice? to say, I'm gonna still dominate, I'm gonna be one of the best.

I think it's more like, I'm a routine guy. When I first came into the league, I never worked out. I just go play basketball and go home and go to the arcades and play like three, four hours then go home and go to sleep. Go to the gym, okay, practice, go to arcade, go home, go to sleep. That was my routine that I never worked out. And then I think about my fourth year in the league, I started to work out. I started to take care of my body. I got to loving that every day. So, I think for like 15 years straight, I worked out every day, pretty much every day, six days a week. 15 years, I stayed like between 185 to 1 to 215 for like, I'd say until I was like 45. I'm at 240 now. So, the routine thing got me hooked on. The reason why I did so well in Chicago and San Antonio, doing all the activities, playing basketball, going out to four or five, six in the morning, you know, sleeping in meetings and then wake up and go back to bed.

Sleep in the meeting?

Oh yeah. I had to have a sleep in the car. I didn't, I couldn't believe that. Well somebody go to sleep the last night. Yep, that was me.

Don't let any care, huh?

Don't let any care. As long as you deliver, I deliver, try to perform. But I'll be in practice, I'll go downstairs, practice for like an hour, work my ass off, practice and then after practice, I stayed there and studied the game of basketball with my friends and all the guys who left, we worked out. I have all my friends come in to help me with my game as far as rebound and play defense. I used to have my friends, how it became a great rebound, I used to have my friends spot around the court, the free throw line and ask them to shoot the ball. And I would turn around and I have someone shoot it and I just turn around and watch the ball hit the rim. and I positioned myself in that where the ball is going. I just asked the other guy, shoot it anywhere. I just turn around and just watch the ball hit the rim. I did that every day, every day. I tried to play a trick on myself. Okay, great, I'm gonna blindfold myself and do the same thing. Wow. Now blindfold myself, I didn't know where the ball was going. I just heard the rim. And also I heard, okay, great, bounce this way and go, boom. Okay, great. So I tried to act to it, And my friends would say, yeah, you almost had it. You almost had the right direction. But that's how I became a great rebounder. I started the ball, I followed the game, I followed the movement of the ball and stuff like that. If you see on the tapes, I never really out jumped anybody.

You just were in the right spot.

I was right in the right spot. I was in the position. I was in the position. So I just went, I did a lot of.

Yeah, 'cause other people were jumping high. You were kind of jumping and doing.

The splits and different crazy.

All the crazy stuff right down this level. You didn't have to jump high, you just were there. That's powerful. Timing is everything. Vision is everything. It seemed like you had the right vision. Do you think you'd be 2019, Robin? Do you think you would be able to stay in the NBA as long now with the same personality? Or do you think they would have kicked you off the teams quicker and said, okay, if you're not gonna show up on time, you're getting fined more. You can't sleep in meetings. We're not allowing this at this time and age, but.

Well, today's age, from today's game, I mean, you could do anything.

Really?

Oh, I'm gonna take a week off. Thank you. I'm tired. I'm tired, so whatever. I'll be back next week. So this is easy today. This is very easy.

Really?

You're making $40 million and saying my back hurt, I'm gonna take two weeks off. Okay, don't worry about it. Like, damn, what was that at back then? You could take two weeks off and still get paid. And then go to Vegas, go to Tahiti, Fiji. Fiji. That's where you going out for this, right? Fiji and you get paid for it. And then all of a sudden you see the person that wanna take a vacation. Oh, where is he at? He's in Fiji. Look at it, guys. It's on Instagram. Look at that. He's on Fiji waving on a banana boat. He's over here on the fucking yacht. That's the day he comes back. Oh, you have a good time?

Yep. I would love to be in today's world. Really?

Oh, hell yeah. Do you think you'd be able to compete with the same at the same level if it was- if I had the same body, the same speed, the same jump in the building, stuff like that? Oh, hell yeah. I mean, I mean a monster. Really? I'll be over 20 rebounds a game, playing like 40 minutes a game. I would love it.

You think because people are softer now in certain ways and with your intensity?

I didn't really get care about it being soft or hard. I just want to go out there and do me. Go play basketball, man. It's more like, I think I'll probably be, I think, more famous just because you have this outlet.

With social media anymore.

Oh, yeah.

I think I'll be way flamboyant. It's still good. Even more. Oh yeah.

Do you think you would have been more destructive then with this type of reach and opportunity for following and press?

Oh yeah, I think I'd be a rock star and a superstar in basketball because I think I probably would have followed a career in trying to be a rock star. And then imagine being a rock star and a basketball player.

Do you think you would have slept at all?

Too much sex, right? Too much sex, right? Damn. She's loving it. Exactly. So I was just like, wow, you're really a rock star. You got your scene, you do all these things. Then you go to basketball court, we get to see your legs and everything you do and what the hell, oh my God, really? You got all the world right there in your hands, man. But I think that, you know, for me, I think I would get burned out real quick. Especially there's so much going on and there's so much, you can't gravitate to anything anymore. So it's more like, I think I probably have, four or five years in.

That league and then go into entertainment after that.

Oh, yeah. Quick. I mean, quit. Seriously, I'm gonna quit because if you look at it, I think the people that's, that is more branded is athletes and entertainers, music people, right? I mean, who don't want to live that life?

Right.

Especially a young kids today. Yeah. And also they just had something on the TV today about legalize college football players, athletes to sell their names. Really? For like merchandise.

They did it today.

They did it today.

Because they've been talking about it for years.

I say the California, nobody else here. It's legal now. Or they're talking about making money. They're talking about doing it. I think the series are doing it. I think they don't have a vote tomorrow. That's huge. That's huge because I was saying, well, let's see. I remember Reggie Bush, Matt Leiner, OJ Simpson, all those guys, UCLA, USC. And they weren't letting those condos for no reason, were they? Back in the day, something driving those Bentleys and, you know, I don't know, rose roaches and stuff like that for no reason, huh?

Yeah.

But now it's gonna be legalized. So I'm like, wow, what a great business move to the kids now. Now they can't. They can't make now, so you're gonna make money now. It's okay, great.

Yeah, exactly. And also, which player did you learn from the most when you were playing either against them or with them? who taught you the most about life, about the game, about...

I think Detroit Pistons. They taught me how to actually be a part of something that was great. You know, I left Oklahoma, that was a great bond there. I think when I got to Detroit, we became as one, 13 guys became as one for five straight years. And I really liked that. I know that they taught me a lot about living life, growing up as a man, grown up as a professional athlete. And I think that if I wasn't driveed by Detroit, like if I were traveling by the Lakers, I'd be out the league. quickick, quickck I would What what would.

Have happened if, hythetically, everyone stayed together for another five years in Detroit?

And well, the no had to end because we was they was getting older. I I was like twenty eight sure and all we guys like thirty, 33, 34, 35. And he was getting older. So basically I think it could have had another run, but since that time.

But where would you be? Because that's when things started to shift quickly after that in San Antonio, you know, the identity shift and the bad boy image even more so, right? The personality came out even more.

Right.

Oh yeah, San Antonio.

Where do you think you would be if you had another five years of like, family unit, stability, those types of feelings. I don't think- Do you think you'd be here now?

I don't think I would be here. I would not be here at all. I mean, I'll be on planet Earth, but I won't be in this situation.

Wow.

I think the course of action, the fact that I've become really popular in Detroit, in the Midwest, I think when I went to San Antonio, I became more all around famous. You know, if you see a clip on 30 for 30, you're gonna see it. I said, you know, I don't give a damn if you like me or hate me, I'm just here to get solid. And I took my hat off and that's when things started to happen for me. In all places, San Antonio Bible bopping city of the kind of United States, I mean, you gotta be good on your toes. So I went there and just totally rebelled, totally rebelled, but I wanted to win in the same process. And a lot of people get out of this, a lot of athletes and people for festival, we get out of this, the fact that When I left Detroit, my mindset as force doing my job never wavered. I went from Detroit to San Antonio to go there and average 19.2 rebounds a game from another team that was averaging 18 rebounds. I went down to San Antonio with another team in the West Coast, not the East, West Coast, 19.2, 18.9, those two years. And from going from East Coast to West Coast, I went down, did my job in Detroit, Swear down to San Antonio, I did my job there, didn't sway my head because I wanted to win. Then after that didn't work out, I went back to the East Coast, Chicago, went there and won three more rebound titles. I was doing my job all the way through this whole cycle. I didn't change at all, right? I just went to a certain different location, location, and just did my job. It wasn't even about the money. At all, it wasn't about the money. A lot of players would say, I wanna go there for the money. And they're like, no, I never did. I just wanna go play and win. That's what I did.

Yeah. Who was the best player you played against?

I played against.

Yeah.

Or with.

Or with. Well, Michael's there, Scotty's there, James Worthy. You know, I just look at people that was my style of play. You know, as far as like, lane and speed and agility and stuff like that, those guys. Worthy was probably the hardest because he was, I hated playing him because he could come in that damn wing. I gotta go across here, across there, get picked.

He wanted to stay down low.

I just wanna stay like, stay out lower and get up front, but he was just like, so difficult. He was just so difficult to guard, but Michael Jordan's probably the hardest.

What are you most proud of from your time in the league?

I survived it.

You survived it?

Oh yeah. I survived it on and off the court. I don't know the hard part was just getting in and trying to fit in. The easy part is trying to come out alive, you know, on one or two feet, because I was just running it hard. You know, I wasn't doing cocaine or, you know, any other substances, you know, I got into alcohol, this kind of rave. They can take control of me. I think that was more of a motivation for me to try to fight both of those. those sides of me. If that was anything that had to disrupt me from basketball and cut my career short at the age of 37, I think that I think the lifestyle off the court did that. That was no stopping me because I liked having a good time on and off the court. So it was just surviving the NBA pretty much.

Yeah.

I'm curious, who was the most influential person for you growing up to this date? From like the time you were, you know, a kid until 20, before you went to college basketball, who was the most influential individual in your life growing up?

I don't know. Who?

Was it a sibling or was it your mom at the time? Was it a... No one.

No one.

No one in particular.

I can't even think of anyone.

If I was... Before you left town.

Was there a kid in the neighborhood?

Was there older? No about it.

No one.

So I pretty much was a follower.

I didn't have any in a sense of direction.

Yeah.

So whatever I saw somebody did, I was a C-monkey dude monkey guy. So that was me. The dude monkey guy?

What does that mean?

If you see somebody, you do it. So you see somebody do it, you're gonna do it. You mimicked it. I mimicked it pretty much.

Yeah.

So if somebody goes see a watch, and they think it's cool. Oh great, I go over and do the same thing and think it's cool, but I only want to get caught. So it's okay right there. I don't want to get in the car, so he did and I thought it was cool. So that was me back then. I didn't have anyone to look up to.

Who was the first influential person in your life that you really respected and admired?

I think it's like two people. Well, not really. I think one person in particular, I think when I went to Oklahoma and lived with that family, James Rich, yeah.

That this, the, the father of the.

Father of the other white family and both cheat oak home population 602, one stop light.

So he was, he was one of the most influential people for you.

Oh, man, he was, he was right there, man. He literally did, you know, 200, a kid with his head cut off. How about you going from the projects, living in a racial tension town, it was 16, 17,000 people didn't go on that blind, didn't understand what's going on in that town. And you're Black and you go into a university there, small like 20,000 people, go into a dorm and then you walk out the dorm and you walk down to the gym and all you hear is, hey, Black person, go back home. They say, what are you doing over here? I hear it every day. So, and I'm like, I'm like, just thought it was like, that was common. I didn't think it was like, oh, I hate that, I hate that, I hate that, I hate that. I thought it was just common 'cause I'm just so used to seeing and hearing it, you know, in the neighborhood and stuff like that. So I was like, all right, great, it's cool, da da da. But when I met that family, I mean, it was cool. Yeah, that I didn't like in the beginning because I didn't know how to behave, you know, I'm being the custom, you know, being just going out wild with shorts on, no shoes and running around like with a kid's head cut off and then have no structure. But that family taught me a lot about structure.

Really?

And stuff like that. I tried to cut the long story short. The more I was so involved with that family, the more I distanced my real family from me. And I think that was a good thing for me. If I didn't distance myself from my real family, I'd be in trouble for being dead legit. Really? Yeah.

What was it that your own family wasn't giving you that you felt like you really wanted or needed?

I'm like, yeah, he knows that. I think I'm right to work on notice today. I think it was just more love and more understanding. I didn't get that. I didn't get none of that.

Your sisters or your mom? 'Cause your dad was gone.

He was gone. Nobody taught me that. You never saw in the neighborhood, all the kids running amok. And you never saw anyone getting loved or hugged or more getting beaten and then whatever you hear with what you mimic.

Yeah.

So I think James Worthy is like the most important person at that time for me.

What did he provide for you besides structure? Did he give you hugs and affection and love or acceptance and understanding or?

He just more like he's treating me like one of his sons. He had three sons and he just put me right in the mix. Put me right on the table. He's like, you're my son. Yeah, but it's funny. It's a cute story and we'll see it in the documentary. When I first went to this family's house, and I like laughed at this, this is funny as hell. People will think it's funny, I think it's funny as hell. So, you know, when I first went to the house, everyone was like shocked to see that was black, you know, coming to this country form. So, little kid, hey, Dennis, come sit over here, come sit over here. I said, all right, great. And I'm just, don't know what to do because I never been in this setting before. Usually going like, you know, get a horned turkey, like that right there, you know, crackers and stuff like that. I'm like, okay, great. I sat down at this table, it had all this crystal and glasses and glass, I mean, all different type of glasses. Silverware. Silverware. I never seen that, right? I was like, all right, great. He said, when you sitting right here beside me? This little boy, you know, so I'm sitting there, then he looks at me and looks around the table and he gets up, he takes the glass from in front of me. He said, I'll be right back. So he goes over and goes to the cabinet and he goes up there, he jumped from the top of the camera. He goes, Reach way up here and get this big ass mug. He said, All right, great. So he comes up, I said, what did you do that for? He said, what did you do that for? He said, I figured that your lips are too big, you can swallow. No way. I said, what? He said, you, lips are too big. I had to get this for you. I said, oh, God, really? I said, I thought it was fart as hell. I know he didn't know any better.

He's trying to be courteous.

Okay, all right. Thank you, man. Like, wow.

I can drink water out of any cup.

Any cup. I can be so it was too small in class, like that small. So we got this big mug. I had to move it. So we. So from that point on, we're trying to cut the short story.

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Sure we got that much time, but me and that little kid, we really bonded.

It was like something 14 years old, right?

No, he was like I was 22. He was like, you know, I think it was 13. 12 or 13. But he was a skinny little kid. I really bonded to this kid and we got along so well. Out of the 22 years I had in my life in Texas, I never bonded to anyone like this. And this is a white little kid and stuff like that. And he didn't care what I looked like, what I said or this or that. He thought everything I did was cool. And I thought what he did was cool. I'm like, go play in his role. He's playing my role.

Right, right.

And every night, we would sit there, go play basketball every night till like 11, 12 at night. And mom used to come out and say, hey, Dennis, you guys gotta go to bed. I said, all right, great. Then we go to bed. I mean, that was going for three years straight. But I think that right there really got me out of the negative part of my life to try to do something positive in my life. And that just put me in the position I am today.

Did you feel like a sense of peace for those three years sleeping there? Did it feel like you could finally relax and kind of just oh, take a deep breath.

Well, it was just more like, mmm. And I felt good to just be in something that was very solid. Very solid, it was cool to, you know, wake up in the morning and like, oh wow, we got to eat good. Take a shower and crack. You got to do that. Obviously, you know, eat the, drink water, you can do this, but it was just felt good to just wake up and say, wow, you're gonna have a great day today.

Wow, that's great.

I appreciate all everything though, you know? for us, like, I hate to get up at 5:30. You know, where we gotta get up at 5:30. For what? For what? You say, well, I gotta go to practice in a couple hours. You gotta go out and feed the cows. You gotta go out there, break ties. You gotta go out there and lift hay and like, oh my God. I did that for three years straight. Summer, one and fall. I mean, all season, we did that every day for seven days a week. And I think that right there really made me appreciate the hard work that I put into and make people happy. So there was no money involved with that. Same thing in college and it just propelled me to the NBA.

Yeah.

What was the greatest lesson that that father taught you?

Oh, to be humble.

Really?

To be humble. Were you not patient? Humble and patient.

Were you not humble or patient then?

I didn't know what that was. I didn't know anything about humble and patient. I think that I was just living life through them, through their eyes and trying to figure out what direction I must go on as first college with the rest of I was gonna go after college. But I just watched them every day and see how they perform as for some family. And the dad was more like, he was more the cool one, like the whole bunch. He'll come home 5 30 in the evening, sit there, drank his little scotch and whatever, sat out there on the porch. And then he always say, Dennis, you know, what do you think? He always talk to me outside, me and Brian. And we sit there with him, we go down a pond and fish for catfish every day. and just sit there and talk most of the day. And I got so used to that, it was so peaceful and just more like, instead of thinking about the nigger, who's getting died, who's dying today, who's getting stabbed tomorrow, who's getting whooped today, who's getting beat today. I'm like, you heard that every day in the projects. But for once, I went there and it's literally at peace. Like, I'm expecting people to beat on the walls, shoot someone or someone screaming. But there was more like so peaceful and, you know, it was like, wow. and I got so used to it, I didn't never want to go back. Wow.

Do you still have a relationship with them today?

Oh, well, yeah, times have changed, but I think that they, I don't know, I really haven't contacted them in a couple of years, but my friends have contacted them. I think they're still doing better. They're doing better now.

That's good. Yeah, yeah. At the end of the documentary, I'm still like five, 10 minutes to finish it, which I'm excited to do right after this, because I just got the link.

Right, that's why I came here.

It gets to the part of Kim Jong Un when you start connecting with him and the whole team.

Everybody really wanna go to that part of this documentary, which we don't show too much of that about North Korea.

And it's your agent's fault that's how he started, right? No, he's not.

He's responsible. He's not responsible. I think it was just more like it was just handed to us. It was just handed to us and it was more like, you know, he got debriefed his friend and he's like, you know, he says it better than I do. You want him to tell you, every time I say it, I get it all farked up, screwed up.

So.

Were they bringing basketball players over there before or were you kind of like the first one to go, to be invited to go there?

I think Darren was telling me that I think Muhammad Ali went there. Who else? Who else went there? Ric Flair went there. I think it was for a wrestling event and stuff like that, but I don't think they knew the magnitude then what was going on? I think they did the same thing I did. Just went over there, performed, and after that I wasn't really worried about, you know, getting killed or being in prison, stuff like that. But, and when I went there, it's totally different.

Yeah.

It was a couple of years ago. It was just totally different because for, I think if they had that situation back, I don't know if it was in the 90s, I think the 90s or whatever, I think they had that situation back then, I think nobody would have went over there. what was going on when I went there a couple years ago, people getting kidnapped and put in prison and beaten and whatever they said it was happening. But I was just fortunate enough to just to get the opportunity just to go over there. And I didn't care. I just wanted to be safe. As long as I'm safe, I don't care. I go.

Yeah.

As long as you're having fun, you're making an impact, you're getting paid, you're good to go.

I'm good to go.

So when did you go originally? 2013. 2013. How many times have you been?

A few times after that.

A few times after that.

You know, I just, it's a shame that Donald Trump won't let me go back.

He won't let you go back? Why not?

I guess the, he just closed the border for some reason. I don't know why.

For any Americans to go or?

Is it for anybody? Is it for anyone to go?

Really?

If you let me go, they want me to come back.

Really? Are you in contact with him or?

Well, you can't contact him directly. I think, you know, vote, I think assistant to there. I think he's pretty much in contact with the right people, the right contest. So we're not directly in contact, but I think they pretty much know how to get in contact with me, him or both, the three people that they need to contact. So, you know, if they have to sit there and find Dennis R. I think they can find Dennis R. Sure, sure. I'm not hiding nowhere.

So what's the, I mean, he's a very controversial individual. What's the lesson you learned from him with your time just in his presence, with your time connecting and talking through translators? And what's the thing that the biggest lesson you've learned from him?

I think the biggest lesson I learned for him is the fact that he really don't want war. He don't want it. I think he's just under pressure because I think his family has left in this regime. to carry out what his father left. But what I told him, it's not like that. He really wants to go into the 21st century. He don't want to get the power up to anyone in the world. I think he wants to keep it where he's in hands of that, but he can give a little more release to certain things to certain people who he trusts. But I think he still wants to have the empowerment of his own I don't see anything wrong with that. I mean, but the good thing, the best thing, I could see the fact that he's actually talking, talking to Donald Trump or whatever they say, I think it's good the fact that he's actually been a human being. When you saw him in Beijing, once he went to Beijing, Singapore, right? The last time I was with him was two years ago. Did you see him go out on the water after walking in the streets and stuff like that? Did you see him doing selfies with himself?

Yeah.

You never see him do that, huh? None of the presidents do that. They took pictures of themselves smiling and having a good time with the people. You never saw him do that. I mean, whoever's in an empowerment over there, but he wants to do stuff like that. And if you see North Korea's how it's grown in the 21st century and people haven't seen it, and all you see is all the negativity, but you don't see all the new stuff he's done for the people. And I think that, When he opens the door for someone to go back over, it's going, I'm gonna be right there knocking on the door. You know, I'm not gonna have this done. I'll be right there and say, you know what? And the next time I do go, this is gonna be for a real reason. A real reason. I mean, a real reason why I'm really going over there, to actually interact with him and try to write a little documentary about me and him and a visit over there, just me and him. me and him and the trying to see if I can get the reason why we can't really get along. I don't know the reason why. I don't really look up to the history of North Korea and America. I don't really want to go that in depth because things change every day now. So I would love to get that part of his, that heart part of information from him just to sit there just me and this chitchat like this. and put it in good contents for the world to see.

It'd be powerful.

What?

In his mind, it's not his father, his grandfather, in his mind. So people can get a good light on him, like they did with everybody else around, great leaders around the world. So if I can do that, I think that's going to change a whole lot for anyone.

That'd be powerful.

No.

Where do you think you would be right now if you had a loving father and a loving mother for your childhood?

I won't be in sports.

You wouldn't have gone to sports.

I'd probably be, like, playing piano for the church. Really?

Singing somewhere.

Yeah.

I'll be playing piano for the church. I have four or five kids. I'm just. Seriously. I'm buried still. You know, that's what I'll be doing right now.

Yeah.

You know, I wouldn't be in sports at all. At all. Because I think, like I said, a lot of negative things have came in my life. have driven me to this point.

Right.

And I'm looking at that whole scenario, man, I said, why, if I had a father back then, and knowing the fact I wasn't playing sports and knowing the fact that I would probably get beaten every day because I'm not doing anything, or I probably have to do the chores, I probably have to do this, I probably have to be in a structure, some type of structure in some type of environment. But it was more like, I said, thank God I didn't have a father. Thank God I grew up like that. Thank God that someone had the hope and the desire for me to not have to make that major mistake to go and just create this whole image about negativity, about, oh, you're gonna kill somebody, you're gonna do drugs, or you're gonna rape this woman when you do this. Thank God somebody had a hand on my shoulder. And when I did screw up, there was someone who came and pulled me back. Come here. Come here. you know, something's good for someone's waiting for you. And every time I went back to the other direction and back to the negative side of it, somebody kept pulling me back over and over. I don't know what it is, what happened, because I had a lot of opportunities to go over there and say, okay, great. You know, I can shoot you, I can do this, this, I never did. And then when I did anything bad, I try to redeem myself by, okay, great, I'm gonna go steal 50 watches that worth about 60, 70 grand. But I'm gonna do the right thing to do. I'm gonna go to my school and pass them away for free. Not make money.

Yeah, yeah.

I also talk about the dumb criminal. That's a dumb criminal. Yeah, here's a Rolex. Don't worry about it. Just be my friend.

Yeah.

Here you go, guys. Take him.

Yeah.

So that's circumstance right there. Those are things I was doing. I wasn't doing anything to make satisfy me. I was just trying to be just.

People to like me.

Yeah.

You know, I was a, Outcast looking in, I was like, here, I'm gonna go steal a car, so you like to drive it for me?

Right.

You know, you don't mind that, right?

Sure, sure.

You know, here's the doorway, come on, instead of my mother's purse. Thank you, you like me now?

Right.

Stuff like that, it's just like, you know, those things pretty much propelled me to understand now, today's life. And I look back all the time, all these little things that could have went wrong.

Yeah.

But one thing, one thing, it went wrong, but it didn't go wrong enough. Enough, enough. You're right, right. It's like they'd go too far where I couldn't come back. And even in the NBA life and even in the celebrity life, it's the same thing. I would go so far, so far. But not the whole thing. Oh my God, then, okay, great. Let me try it again. I gotta do it again. God damn it, I can go a little higher. Then all of a sudden, then it gets to that crisis moment, oh damn, okay, I think the crisis moment for me of being an adult, and I've been 58. A lot of people used to have best in Vegas. They used to have like a chart for me in Vegas. Oh, so then his birthday is today. So is he gonna live to 54?

Really?

It was really a true story. It was the best way. For me to live in a certain year. And for me, I think it was kind of like, I think I'm gonna die next year because the way I live.

You would think this to yourself?

Oh, yeah.

You would think, I think I'm gonna die next year.

Yeah. Wow. And there was no control of me for. For a moment there. You know, I would go and just be on these bands, man, just go drink for, like, two, four or five days straight. And it was like I was on that. It was like, I don't care. Whatever, man. I'm Dennis Robinson. I'm famous. Wow. I was doing it every day, man, then.

Do you feel more balanced now? Like you have more, do you feel like you're gonna die every year still or do you feel like you're in a good place right now?

No, you know, those thoughts have crossed my mind once in a blue moon, not like every other day. Like I said, I got good people that surround me, you know, he's trying to, he's walked a straight down road for 11, 12 years now. He's doing a great job. We got a new book out there, Any Way, High, you know, he's only, what, five foot seven Jew right there, Jewish boy right here, you know, but he's changed a lot of people's lives in the world. That's Darren Prince. You don't see his ass right there, guys. He's right there. You know, I think you know him around the world. Got a lot of cool clients, you know, stuff like that. But he is actually evolutionizing the opus epidemic. If you guys can check him out, guys, check him out. Darren Prince live somewhere in your city. Seriously.

But he's been a very integral part of my life over the last 22 years, 23 years. So how has he helped you improve and grow? and overcome a lot of the negative thoughts you've had about yourself or the addictive things you've gone through.

Well, he's trying to challenge me sometimes, trying to be out firm and tough. He's only 59, 40, 40, 49 or 50 right now. And I'm 58. He's trying to tell me, oh, you da-da-da-da. Oh, man, come on. Do I need this today? And sometimes I kind of like to put my ego aside and say, oh, man, I actually do need this because things are not going too damn well. So I do bow down and listen, you know? And like I said, you're never too old to need help. You're never too old to ask for help. I said that to myself many, many days, many, many years.

Or to learn something new.

To learn something new all the time, you know, you think you're smart, but everyone needs help.

Yeah.

And also, I think he's been there for most of the tough times, the sad times mostly because, you know, because he knows I get sometimes lonely to myself because, and I feel like that I've done so much, I don't deserve anything else.

Really?

So he's actually been, you know, trying to give me some uplifting spirits and hope to just keep moving forward. So, you know, he's good at that. You read the book, he'll say that in the book a lot about, you know, always don't doubt the word hope and faith.

Wow.

It carries a long way.

Yeah.

Why do you feel like you don't deserve anything more?

It's been like that all my life.

Yeah.

Like that all my life, man. And people, like I said, I can't say enough about my wife sitting right here, but this documentary is gonna change a lot of people's perspective about how they conduct certain things in their lives, especially kids.

Yeah.

You know, that was the one piece there, one piece that keeps showing all day and yesterday about me and my mother. My mother said, you know, I never tried to run Dennis, you know, I just want just to just- I never tried to what? Run Dennis. I never tried to run his life and try to control him, but, you know, she'll say in a soft voice, like, I just want a piece of him. I just want him to know that I love him and stuff like that. And then they click over to me and I'm just going nuts, but, oh, you know, where was you when I da-da-da, when I need you? When I became famous, when I was broke, you didn't want me. You threw me out the house. this is what I'm saying on TV.

Yeah.

And also like that, and people gonna look at it and say, wait a minute, I never heard an athlete, a person talk about their mother like that. And on the 30 for 30, I don't relinquish, I keep going.

Yeah.

And that's the frustration coming out of me. And I'm retired this time and I still haven't hashed out this whole bad image about me and her about the days that she kicked me out the house. And you don't see it here. And people, as far as the sports figures, as far as entertainment people, don't realize, don't see the fact that I don't hold back.

Yeah.

And a lot of people want to hold back their father and mother and try to say that the most perfect thing about their family, I don't hold back. I just say it straight up. I don't say I hate you, but I think I just resent it.

You still resent her?

Oh, I don't resent her now. I think that overcame that. I think the fact now I've prepared myself to try to sit there and reach for the higher level of love with her. But I just gotta put one foot in front of the other and try to reach that high level and say, hey, I apologize. I haven't came to that point yet, but I'm trying to get there.

You haven't apologized to her?

Right.

What do you want to apologize to her for?

I was a bad son. A bad, you know, individual to you. But I think I'm trying to convince myself if I did that to her, for me, to her, I think I'm looking for her to say the same thing to me.

Has she ever apologized?

I don't think she didn't know how. I don't think I don't know how to apologize to her. I think that's the reason why we came like that.

Wow. What do you think would happen if you guys came together face to face and both apologized to each other?

Probably me and she'd probably be her. So she'd probably like, you know, she'd probably just be subdued and I'll be like, look at her and stuff like that. Knowing the fact that my eyes are saying more than words and my body can react to what my eyes are feeling. So basically my eyes are loving her and holding her, but my arms and my body are numbed. So that's how I would do it like that because I never reached over and hugged her like that. I never reached over and cried to her. I don't know how. So I think everything I'm visualizing and seeing to her and thinking about her It's all right there, but she don't know it. But I can't physically be able to sit there and express it. And that's what the only thing that's holding me back. I'm doing that for her, but everything else is intact.

How long you been thinking about doing that for?

A long time.

Like decades?

Oh, it's 10 years. Over 10 years.

What will it take for you to make it happen?

Me, I put that one foot in front of the other. That's it. It's all about me. I'm not selfish. I'm there. I just can't, I don't know why this won't I just wonder why I can't turn that corner and just tell her.

How often do you see her?

Not often enough.

Once a year, once every couple of years.

I'd go like five, six years at a time.

So you haven't seen her in five years?

I saw her last year.

Yeah.

She saw my kids for the first time last year. I think they're 17, 18.

What do you think it would do for your heart to have that type of healing and peace? If you said, I'm sorry, Mom, and you actually, whether she said, I'm sorry or not, but if she said it back, how do you think that would help your heart heal?

I don't know. I don't think I wouldn't feel it.

Really?

Because I've been living this life without having the love and attention for 50 years. I don't know how I can take that.

Yeah.

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Services member NYSC SIPC. I think that it probably takes time for me to be around her a lot to understand the reason why she did what she did, the reason why the things I did, I think we need to hash that out. And I think a lot of people, like I said, I've been saying this and on the documentary, you're gonna see what I'm talking about. It's not that very, it's not that easy to, you know, two people.

Stubborn people that are.

Yeah, stubborn people. But I'm not stubborn. I'm very, I'm very like, I'm very caring and very loving, but I just don't know how to show because I never knew how to and I never had a father and I'm partially a mother, but I love her to death though. I mean, what I see on TV, I like, wow. And I just, I think I just want people's other opinions to feel to show me how to feel towards her. If you understand what I mean.

Yeah, for sure.

And what other people show me how to feel towards her, even towards my kids, same, same, same junction.

What are you most grateful for about your mom?

She's persevered through a lot. She persevered through a lot. She was in a coma a couple of years ago. and she came out of it luckily. But I didn't know about it till like six months into it, but I never even went to see her then. I think that was very selfish of me, but I just felt like that it was an appropriate time for me to see her. I was just hoping that she came out of it and luckily she did. And she came out, I saw her, she came out the coma, she came back for recovery and I went down to see her, for the kids. So I thought that'll be something for her before me or her die. So she wasn't in good shape, but she managed to come and see me.

That's good.

But yeah, like I said, this documentary is gonna be historical for kids and for athletes. So I want people prepared themselves to understand what I'm trying to say. It's very powerful for people just really take it all in. And so I don't remember about some of these, out of this documentary people said, oh my God, that was awesome. I said, Yep, you know, this is me. This is what it is.

So do you feel like if you, you never got the chance to say what you really wanted to say and apologize to your mom that you would regret it if she wasn't around to hear it in the future?

I don't know. I believe that I would.

You'd regret it?

I think it would soak in. I think it would soak in. Like I said, I'm very honest. I think it would soak in. I think if the time it was sinking for me, I think if I was about to die, then all of a sudden I'm gonna have to sit there and look through my eyes why I didn't fulfill so many things I should have fulfilled. I think it would take that much for me to sit there and realize that. And I understand that by myself. And I said, well, I'm myself, but I think that's my mentality as far as that is concerned. But I'm so loving to everybody else.

Yeah, yeah. What's your mom?

What my mother and my Right. And certain people, I just, but I'm so loving to everybody. You see, I'm always giving, giving, giving, giving, giving. But I don't realize that if I turn my that way, that's the most important thing. And I see it, but I just don't want to reach out for it. Wow. But it's, like I said, it's coming. It's slowly coming.

We gotta make it happen this year, Dennis. I want you to happen this year, man. We gotta commit to it this year. this year. Now after this documentary's out, now's the time, man.

Now's the time, man.

Now's the time. Darin's gonna make it happen.

He's gonna get a meeting between you.

Guys and the V-Labs. Get to meet the minds over here.

Exactly. Let's make it happen.

Let's make it happen. So, yeah, so I want you to have healing, man.

I want you to have peace in your heart. But I can't sit down with that guy. I can't sit down with that guy at all. This guy is gonna make me fucking me, oh God. I gotta sit down with somebody that's cool.

Yeah.

You know, so school made me get that slowly. He wasn't go that fast, you know? So, you know, he did it fast, 11, 12 years going on right now. So, you know, he's still battling addiction.

Yeah.

But to touch on something else, I think a lot of people should understand that, yes, I was, I'm sorry, this question before you asked, yes, I was alcoholic. I still am. I'm not ashamed that I have to say that. Why not? You know, so, I always be an alcoholic, but I think my president and my action shows a lot different these days. So I hope people recognize that. But I do recognize that that's totally an issue with that with me. And I say I got good people around.

Yeah.

And as long as they're around to keep me, if I sway away that way, they always got enough room to run me back in. Come on, Dennis, stay on that. We got you. We got you. Okay, great.

So.

So the record be straight. You know about alcohol problem I had in this documentary. They're gonna see a lot of that. So, but I'm here today living, breathing, staying healthy, trying to, you know, so I got a lot of life to live now.

Yeah.

A lot of healing, a lot to look forward to pretty much.

That's good, man. Lots of healing. We always gotta heal. Every day I'm healing my past, and we all got time to heal. So I got a couple final questions that I want to ask you. This has been really powerful. So thanks for being open and vulnerable and sharing with me everything. this is called the Three Truths. I asked this question, I asked this question to everyone at the end. And I want you to imagine it's your last day many years from now. And you get to live as long as you want.

25 years?

You get to live whenever you want.

25 is like 25 is 83.

You get to live as long as you want from here.

Okay.

You get to live another 100 years if you want to.

I'd love to live 100 years.

20 years, whatever you want to live.

Yeah.

But it's the last day. You gotta like Turn the lights off, right?

All right, cool.

And imagine you got to achieve everything you want to for the rest of your life.

Take an acid, right?

Exactly.

Exactly. Turn the lights off. No, let's see how much you're gonna trip. Exactly.

So imagine from now until the end of your life, you achieve every dream you want to accomplish. You apologize to your mom, you have the relationship with your family you want, you have whatever you want to achieve. You go, you bring North Korea and America together. Anything you want to do, you make happen, right? You write the books, the movies, whatever you want to do.

You gonna ask me?

Yeah.

Okay. But for whatever reason, you got to take everything with you. All your Awards and accomplishments, your body work. It's got to go with you to wherever you go next in the next world. And imagine you get to leave behind your three lessons to the world. Three things you know to be true about your life and the lessons you've learned that would be lessons you would share. to other people after you're gone. What would you say are your three lessons or three truths?

Three lessons. That was a difficult question, right? Three truths, right?

Three truths. Three things you know to be true that you would want to share with other people that they would have.

Three lessons. Well, it's very difficult. It's a fine line between three lessons, three truths. It's a fine line between the first truth. I give people, you know, the truth about me. I can leave to people when I leave. I think if you actually truly understand how to live life, live it. If you understand how to live life, live it. You know, so that's one.

That's one. Okay.

Okay.

Live life.

It's not live life. If you understand how to live life, live it. You know, you got time to understand it, but live it if you have the time to live it. what I've learned and what I want to leave to the world. And a lot of people say that you have to earn love. If you ever read the Bible and you ever see the truth on TV or visualization, what is love? Do you share it? Do you endure it? What is love? Can anyone explain that to me? I'm still looking for it. you know, because love is like a dying, dying, dying breath. You know, what is love to anyone that's living on Earth? What is love?

Yeah.

So I said, that's a hard one right there to really get in depth with because a lot of people are looking for love in all the wrong places, kind of gay, right? But it was looking for love because, you know, love can heal and love can destroy. So what is love? Mm-. I'm looking for it.

Okay.

So.

All right, that's number two.

Number two. Mm-. This is the one I always, always, I think I put this number one, but I'm gonna keep it with, I'm trying to serve to the world. I'm gonna look at, I'm not looking forward to dying.

You're not looking forward to dying?

I'm not looking forward to die, forking to die. Mm-. I'm looking, how to die.

Well, how do you want to die?

That's the question I want to know. How do I want to die? How? Right now, I have no clue if I want to die a certain way. I just don't have a clue how to die because I had too many opportunities in my life to die. And I wrote a book called I Should Be Dead by Now. And I believe in I should be dead by now, but I'm trying to find a way to know how to die. Because I put my life in too many f***ing vulnerable situations to put myself in six feet under. But someone has had this light of love that I don't understand that's keeping rising me from the dead. From the dead and saying, you,'re not done yet. You're not done yet. Where are you going? I'm not done. That keeps me hoping and believing that I can still change. I can still evolutionize the fact that, hey, there's a reason why I'm still moving and grooving, still living, still trying to perpetuate myself to understand why am I living. Because I shouldn't be. So take that. Thank you, guys.

These are powerful. I've got one final question before I ask the question. We've got the 30 for 30 out now. People need to watch this. It's unbelievable. It's powerful.

It's moving.

It's-- Show with an Emmy or Oscar, maybe.

Someone won the Oscar nomination. But what I was saying, it's good for everybody in the world. Please, in this town, it's powerful. If he's saying it, come on.

You're also on Instagram. You're on TikTok. Now you get to express yourself on social media, which I think is cool. So they can follow you there on all these platforms. What else do you have going on right now that we can support you with or follow and be a part of?

There's a lot of things, man, but I don't want to get into it right now. But I think I've been having this vision about me doing a one-on-one special, talk to one individual, one individual. I didn't want to have this one-on-one special talking to one individual. That's it. And this one individual is the world. One individual is just, no script, no nothing. I just want someone to say, you, on.

That'll be powerful.

And just talk to that one individual. That's it. It's the world. And the world is the fact that I'm talking to this individual. That's the world. And when it's all said and done, I'm actually talking to me. I'm trying to find a lesson, a life to learn, a lesson to learn. I'm actually talking to the world, but when it's all said and done, I'm actually talking to me, trying to make some sense. So that's gonna be powerful too.

That's good.

It's coming. That's what I'm working on right now, trying to orchestrate this moment for life. for the world so one can see what I see. That's what Jesus and God want for everyone. He said, follow me, I'll show you the promised land. I don't want that. I just want to follow me to make everyone happy. That's it.

Yeah.

Well, Dennis, I want to acknowledge you.

Man, because you're this guy that's shaped a whole generation. What is he like? 36. All right, there you go.

I want to acknowledge you, man, because you're authentically you 100. Then no doubt you do what you want. You're authentic, you express it. The nails, the hair, that I mean, you've got anything you wanted and you want to feel and express, you do it.

Right.

And so many people are afraid to express themselves. I'm not saying you're perfect.

No, no.

And we all got a lot to learn and grow. But the fact that you are able to express yourself fully and really not care what people think is a powerful gift and I appreciate your vulnerability and sharing on here today. People make you watch the movie. Final question is, what is your definition of greatness?

No one's ever asked me that. What's my definition of greatness?

Came in the right place, man.

I know it came in the right place, but it's like, the definition of greatness, I don't know. You know, God and Jesus and Moses, they didn't to see greatness, did they? They died. They left something for us to hold on to, right? What is greatness? They wanna see greatness. I think yes, that you have to go hold hands to people that's left us and left us something to hold on to. If you wanna go see greatness or be greatness, they're already gone. And people are still, you know, still looking for what is greatness, what is love, what is life. How did we live? Why are we doing it? Why are we moving so fast? You wanna see greatness? Okay, great. Let's go find out what greatness is. It ain't here. Seems like we all fighting every day. Let's go find greatness. It's somewhere. It ain't here. And everyone always has something to always look upon. They always like, man, We'll go see greatness. That is.

There you go.

Your time will come. He's gonna see you sooner or later. Thank you.

There you go.

Thank you, brother. Appreciate it.

There you have it, my friend. I hope you enjoyed this one powerful episode. Blew my mind and it was just an amazing time to be in Dennis his presence and to experience some time with him. Really loved getting to know him. And I really hope he takes action on connecting with his mother and expressing how he truly feels, sharing his apology with her, forgiving her, and allowing her to apologize to him. I think it would be so healing for both of them to be able to witness that happen. So I truly hope he takes that on. And I'm glad he was willing to open up and talk about that. And I want you to think about someone in your life that you haven't apologized to that you feel like you should. Maybe you've been holding on a grudge for six months or a year, or maybe it's been decades where you've been holding on to something that is tearing you up inside. And maybe you've been rationalizing with yourself and saying, it's okay, I don't need to apologize. They hurt me. They weren't there for me. They did this to me.

I I get it.

I felt that way at times as well. And it's not fun, you know, doing that and being the one to go and apologize. But there is power in your apology. There is power in finding peace in your heart, whether they accept apology or not. You coming from a calm, loving place and apologizing and allowing someone else to apologize can be healing for you. So if that's something that you've been thinking about for a long time or maybe you've forgotten about it might be time to bring that back up and have the courage to do that today. Don't wait three weeks or three more years or whatever it may be. Do it right now. Life is now. You never know what's gonna happen tomorrow, in the next week, the next year. There's never going to be the right time to do something unless you do it right now. I hope you enjoy this. Please share with a friend, someone you might think this would be powerful for. You can spread the inspiration for someone you can make an impact in one person's life by just sending them this text message, lewishouse.com/854 or copy and paste the link on the Apple podcast or Spotify, wherever you're listening to this podcast. Just copy and paste the link and text one friend and say, Hey, I was thinking about you today. I thought you might find this episode interesting with Dennis Rodman? Let me know what you think. We'd love to get this message out there. Share it on your social media. If this is your first time here, please subscribe to the podcast on the Apple podcast. Leave us a review and a rating and let me know what you think. I always want to hear your feedback on how we can make this better, how we can make it more insightful and helpful for you in your personal life. Grace Jones said, I believe in individuality. that everybody is special and it's up to them to find that quality and let it live. What is the personality within you that you've been holding back? Where could you be more courageous in expressing your true essence, the true personality that only you have within you? No one else can replicate who you are ever in the world, never before, never again.

It's only you.

If you're hiding behind something, if you're trying to fit in too much, if you're trying to please everyone, you've got to start getting your personality out there even more because different is what's going to help you stand apart from everyone else and help you achieve your dreams even faster. Not trying to fit in, but trying to be more of who you are. I hope this was powerful. I love you so very much. And you know what time it is? It's time to go out there. and do something great.

Thank.

You.

Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox, There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe please and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

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