872 Jon Dorenbos on Forgiveness and Choosing Happiness

This is episode number 872 with John Dornbass.

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.

Thanks for spending some time with me today.

Now let the class begin.

Nelson Mandela said, when a deep injury is done to us, we never heal until we forgive. This is probably one of the most inspiring stories of someone that I've connected with and interviewed on how they overcame extreme trauma and came out the other side to become one of the most beautiful human beings and do great things with their life. If you don't know who John Doornbos is, he's a former NFL football player, elite magician, speaker and author. And When John was 12 years old, his father murdered his mother in the family's three car garage. He discovered an escape by performing magic tricks and football, then provided a release for all of his pent up anger. Together, magic and football saved his life, leading to 14 NFL seasons and amazing sleight of hand performances to packed houses across the globe. And in the NFL, John played for the Buffalo Bills, Tennessee Titans and the Philadelphia Eagles. He holds the record for the most consecutive games in Eagles franchise history and earned two Pro bowl appearances and a Super bowl ring. As a magician, John was a finalist on America's Got Talent and regularly appears on the Ellen DeGeneres Show. His new book, Life is Magic draws a roadmap for how to shut the voice up by choosing happiness. And it's out right now. And I want to give a warning to our listeners. This is a warning that this episode contains some explicit stories of domestic violence and criminal activity. And the details may make some listeners extremely uncomfortable. So if that is something that you believe will make you feel uncomfortable, please be aware. Feel free to put this on pause or don't listen to this if you feel like this will affect you in a traumatic way. But in this episode, it's extremely powerful. The story he shares and John talks about how he transforms negative experiences into motivation for life. He talks about forgiveness, forgiving his father for what he did and the profound impact it has had on his life. The biggest lessons he learned from his father and how he will pass it on to his own daughter. How John got his coaches and mentors to believe in him by consistently showing up the power of accepting reality as it is and how needing open heart surgery actually brought that all home for John. Again, he's got a crazy story and he's one of the most inspiring guys that I've met. So make sure to share this with a friend that you think it would be inspiring to pay this forward, be a hero and a champion in someone's life by connecting with them and and send them this link lewishouse.com 872 the.

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Apply and I am so excited about this episode. I really hope you get a lot of value out of this. Please share with your friends and let me know what you think when you're going through this episode. Let me introduce to you the inspiring John Doornbos.

I want to be a rock star, right? Problem is I can't sing, I can't dance and I can't play an instrument. So music is a good way to go. Well, you know what, when I was a kid, When I was 14, I saw Bill Malone on TV. He was a card guy. So I didn't see Stevie Ray Vaughan, I didn't see Hendrix, I didn't see, you know, Clapton. I Didn't see these guitar guys. I saw a card guy.

Yeah.

So I learned that cards, if you will, are my guitar. And the words and the trick are the ballad.

Sure, sure.

So I did that piece. She liked it. I went and did her show, and then she hit me up right away. And she's like, yo, when can you come back?

Ellen said this.

Yeah. And I don't think she realized, but at the time, I was playing in the NFL, which she knew, but, like, this is expensive. Like, I took a jet because I was like, I had to get there and get back. But I'm like, it's Ellen. I'll just fork up the cash. And so I flew back the same day so I wouldn't miss practice the next day. Right.

So she's like, well, you did America's Got Talent and you're still in the NFL then.

Yeah. So when we did the Lives, I was in training camp. So I was literally going back and forth.

Shut up.

Sometimes daily that day. No way, man. I was doing at times three, four round trips a week. I never missed a practice. Wow. Never missed. I missed one team meeting that I got excused because there was a bombing threat at LAX and they shut down my red eye.

Oh, my God.

And I was like, no. So basically what I would do is I'd go to practice and the only way this worked is I'm a long snapper. Yeah, right.

You have any other position? Maybe a punter maybe?

Yeah. Okay. But like quarterback, receiver.

No way.

If I was actually an athlete, it wouldn't work. Right, right, right. And so I would go. We'd start at 8 and I would go all the way to about 5 o' clock here. I'm sorry, in Philadelphia. Yeah.

Yeah. 8am to 5.

Yeah. So my training camp day, 8am to like, 5. And then there were other guys. Like, the position meetings would go to like, eight. All right, so I'm done at five, Rushed to lax, I got on the six o', clock, American to la. I would land, do an hour or two of B roll interview, whatever I had to do to then take the 10:15 or 10:30 red eye back to Philly to land at 7:15 to make my eight to go back, to go back.

No way.

It was sick.

So we do like two, three hours and then fly back.

Yeah, whatever I had to do. Like if they needed something, I just got on that flight and I jammed.

Did you fly to LAX or Burbank?

I probably should have flown into Burbank.

It's right there.

Right. But the red Eye is out of lax.

Oh, my gosh.

And there was no traffic at the time. So just, you know, you would get.

In at like, what, 8:00'? Clock?

Yeah, whatever it was. And I'd literally have two hours.

Shut up.

I want to have two hours to just be as efficient as possible at times.

Wow.

You know, it was, looking back, it was probably one of the coolest times of my life. Most hectic. And then, like I said, playing football.

Being on America's Got Talent.

Well, okay, so imagine doing Ellen. Yeah. Imagine being a kid and all you'd want to do is be a professional athlete. And I wanted to be an awesome magician. I want to be a rock star.

Right.

And. But I wanted to be a rock star in the magic world. And so at this time in my life, I was playing in the NFL.

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Quint.com Lewis performing on arguably, arguably the biggest stage, biggest show in the world.

It's crazy.

Both perfections that I love were, were like eye to eye on the top levels. It was insane. You know, my advantage to doing that show is I didn't have time to overthink it. Like I didn't have time.

So like I basically went like weeks of preparation. You were like, all right, what's the trick gonna be tomorrow? Yeah, let me figure this out.

Hey guys, I gotta go play the Browns tomorrow or I hey, we're playing Green Bay. So here's what I'm gonna do. I came up with this. This is what I'm doing. I'll see you in two weeks. Wow. You know, and it was crazy. And then I, you know, I remember when the whole thing was done, we had two days off. I think we played like a Thursday night game. And then we were off Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And I literally slept for like three days. Oh my gosh. I just caught up Cause I'd just been.

You know, you probably couldn't be nervous because you were just tired. You're just like, all right, I'm just gonna do the trick.

Well, you know, it's interesting that you say that. And, you know, as a professional athlete and a performer, that's probably the number one question you get asked. Like, aren't you nervous? But the reality is, it comes to this. What sports have taught me in my life is preparation, process, prepare. Right. And what I've learned is that if you're prepared, you're not nervous. You don't feel nervousness.

You don't feel pressure, Feel excited.

You're waiting.

Yeah.

The pressure is the moments that are between waiting and going. And all of a sudden, when it's go time, you forget everything.

I know.

And it's literally the moment that you were meant to be in. You've trained for it, and you can't wait to get in that moment because you know you're ready. And you know that you have this feeling that there's nobody in the world that deserves that position more, but to get to that, you got to pay the price.

Yeah.

You know, and for me, in football, I took great pride that every time I went on the field, I felt like, there's nobody in the world that's better for that team at that moment than me.

Wow.

And so, you know, a lot of people are like, well, how do you know a snapper? There's a lot of pressure and this and that, and it's actually funny. I would actually pretend like I was an actor. Right. Who doesn't want to be an actor, right? So I would pretend like I was an actor, and I'd be on the sideline, and I'm like, okay, if I was, like, the biggest badass long snapper in the world, what would that be? Be it.

Step into it.

Step into it.

I used to do that in high school, playing football as well. Just have an alter ego.

That's it.

And just become that person.

Right.

When I crossed the lines, I just became Jerry R. Yeah. And I was like, I am Jerry Rice. Because he wasn't known as, like, the fastest guy, but he was, like, the most precise. He caught everything. And I was like, this is who I am. And it made me overcome that insecurity or fear. If there was someone on their team that looked faster or whatever, I was like, no, I am Jerry Rice.

Yep.

Just cross the field. It's like every time a pitcher crosses, like, the line, it's like they step into this alter Ego. And that's, that's powerful.

I totally get it. But the advantage to that too is, and I think this is important for myself was I never wanted to be identified as any one thing like, oh, John the football player.

Yeah, me either, right?

Or John the magician. It's like, look, this is part of who I am. But I feel like whatever the public perceives you as, that's their choice, right? They might see me as just a football guy, they might see me as a heck of a magician. They might see, it doesn't matter, but it's, what do I feel about me and how do I feel about myself and what am I doing with my life? When you become that alter ego, you can step out of it at any time, at any time, because you've, you've become it. But it is what it is. But then, guess what? I can come back to me and then as a magician, boom, I can.

Step into the David Copperfield role or whatever it is you wanted to be.

And then I can come back to me.

What would you do?

What was the process for creating that alter ego or stepping into that?

I guess in the alter ego, it's more in the football world, like I had to literally psych myself up that I'm good enough because these guys are huge.

Huge. Fast, strong, huge.

And I didn't realize it until years into my, into my career. I was standing next to Jason Peters and Brent Selleck and there was a picture taken of us. And I remember looking like, I'm a five year old kid right now. Like I feel like I should be going like this, holding their hands.

They're giants. Monsters.

Monsters, dude. And then when I got out of the game and I went back, I just remember looking around going, I literally ran around with these dudes. These guys are freaks of nature. Huge, huge. But when you're in it, you kind of lose the, kind of, the reality of like what normal size is. Because like around my friends, 6 foot, 250, 255, I'm a big guy. Yeah. There's nothing, you know, so that was a trip. But it was, you know, when I perform, I'm just me. But I think that comes into where the confidence comes in, where the preparation comes in to the pricing.

For 20 years or something.

30 years, 27 years.

Yeah. So you were prepared for marriage. Talent wasn't like, I've been doing this for three years. I don't know how to perform in front of people. You're performing every day, right?

With your teammates, with friends and I think when I did America's Got Talent, and when you really find out who are you as a performer, you know, it's like, okay, you have all these influences, right? But the world doesn't need another Copperfield. The world doesn't need another David Blaine. And nor do I want to be them. I love them.

But there's Blaine's amazing dude.

There's a lot of magicians that I love. There's a lot of magicians that I love, but I despise. Like, I would never want to be you. Like, I think it's so cheesy, but I'm in the guy.

Yes.

That was awesome.

I love this guy. Just don't be that. Right. But what ends up happening is you find out who you are. And what I realized is I can talk to a crowd. And to me, I realized that for me, like, music, Right. I wanted to be a rock star, but I picked up cards. That's the tool. So there's a lot of magicians where the trick is the end all, be all. And if that's it, well, then the trick is your show. Right. But if the trick becomes a tool, if a trick becomes a song, to create an emotion, to create a connection and audience, or to make something relative in a moment of time, well, now it's not about the trick. It's about the moment. I'm gonna feel really bad. Cause two people have quoted this. I read it. I think it was George Carlin. You know, they're not gonna remember what you said. They're not gonna remember the joke or what you did, but they're gonna remember how you feel and that how you made them feel, how you made them feel. Right. And that's gonna make them come back.

Yeah.

And so I found out that in my show, it's my life story. And I used magic along the way on where I was at different points to how I grieved and how I found happiness and how I came out of it.

You tell your life story throughout the show?

Yeah. Really everything. The good, the good, the bad, the ugly. Finding forgiveness.

That's crazy, man.

Yeah, it's cool.

You have a crazy story about you were 12 years old, right?

Yeah.

And your dad kills your mom, which is crazy. And he doesn't tell you about it. You're going to practice with him, and then he turns himself in afterwards with your mom in the truck or something.

Crazy, right?

Yeah. So one of those things where my dad was. The guy's my hero. The guy's my favorite person in the world. You know, we play catch every day, coach my teams, president of Little League. You know, I wanted to be King Griffey Jr. And Jay Bunion. I grew up in Seattle, and I wanted to be a baseball player. And so every night he'd come home, and if it was dark, we'd turn the lights on right in the car at the top of the driveway. He'd give me an American pop fly, and we'd do it over and over, and I'd catch it, and I'd burst in. That guy was Griffey.

So he was like an active kind of dad. He was there for you. He was supportive, giving, caring, attentive to.

My sister and my brother and I. Yeah. And my mom was my other favorite person. And look, I didn't have a learning disability. I'm not claiming I did. I'm not looking for sympathy. But reading comprehension was really difficult for me in school, and I needed to be placed in special reading programs. And my mom helped start this program to basically make a reading visual, and so that helped me. And then all of a sudden, cool kids started to come, and all of a sudden, people liked my mom. Like, she was cool. Right. And so what my mom taught me is that you can struggle, you can be different. You don't have to be good at what everybody else is, but there's still a purpose for you, and there's still a lane in this world for you. We just got to figure out what it is. And so we lived a Brady Bunch family. And when I came home, I was across the street playing football. Just backyard stuff with some friends. And I didn't know this at the time, but my dad murdered my mom. And he used a bench grinder and a sledgehammer, and it was really bad.

Brutal.

Brutal. Wow. So I came home, and now, looking back in hindsight, Monday, quarterback. Right. He kept me out of the garage where it happened. We played a few games. A friend of his came over.

How does he play a few games with you? After he just did this?

I think he snapped out. Like, I think he snapped, and then he snapped out and realized I was coming home.

And he had to be there for you.

Yeah. He had to figure out what the heck's going on. And so I think. And look, I sometimes. Well, not sometimes. All the time. I try and put myself in other people's shoes. And I said, man, if I was him, what would I have done? What would you do? Right. You either lose it and run. You either kill your son when he comes home and kill yourself.

Yeah.

Or all these things go. And then all of a sudden you don't agree with what happened, but maybe you understand why they acted the way they did. If you can just put yourself in those shoes. And so he kept me from it, got me off to a baseball camp the next morning, and then he ended up turning himself in. You know, in the trial, there's speculation every which direction and, you know, we think he tried to get away with it and painted the garage. And I think maybe he just thought he wasn't going to. And then in the state of Washington at the time, second degree murder was a max sentence of 13 years.

That's it.

That's it. So you probably do the math. If I run, it's probably going to go down as first degree. I'm life. Right. And I'm going to get caught. I kill myself. Do I want to die? Or if I turn myself in, I'm facing a max of 13. I probably serve 11, and I probably get out when I'm 50.

Wow.

Like there's still life.

Pretty good life.

I mean, for the trade.

That's crazy, man.

For what you did.

Yeah, I mean for the crime.

It's crazy.

So my sister and I went into temporary foster homes. My brother was 18 at the time.

Before you go on, my brother went to jail for four and a half years for first account of selling lsd. So it's like you go to jail for. It was six to 25 sentence. We got on four and a half on good behavior when I was 12 years old. But to crime of murdering someone and to only be six or seven more years. It's crazy.

Crazy. So what ended up happening is I think he turned himself in. So now all of a sudden his attorneys are like, look, the only reason he did what he did was to protect him. Well, yeah, self defense and then temporary insanity. And I think the argument that his attorneys made is he didn't turn himself in right away because his son was coming home. He didn't know what to do. He protected his son, got his son off, and then turned himself in the next day.

Yeah.

And, and, and look, now I'm. Now I'm an old, you know, I'm older. Okay, I get it. Whether that was his motive or not.

Yeah.

That's the way I think it was spun and it made sense to people. Right. So now it is now second degree. And it was a.

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It a crime of passion. You can label whatever you want. The guy snapped and Snapped out of it.

Wow.

And wow.

So did you talk to your dad after that when he was in jail?

So yeah. So for, well, there's a few months there where, you know, he's in jail and not convicted yet.

He's in trial.

He's in trial, yeah. So you're trying to figure out what's going on. And again, a lot of reflection as life goes. And I've hit certain ages that my parents got to that my aunt that ended up raising me got to and reflected on the decisions that they made to help my sister and I. And think about this. My dad goes to prison, turns himself in for murdering my mom, which is my aunt's best friend, her sister, which is my grandparents daughter. Right. They're driving my sister and I to go see him.

Oh my gosh.

And they would wait outside, but they were like, as much as this is killing us and stabbing us, we really believe that if we don't tell these kids the way they have to think, they're never gonna resent us. And instead it's gonna make sense to them. Like they're gonna figure this out. But I think we have to let them figure it out to go see their dad and whatever that process was. So my sister and I was in super intense therapy that was mandated by the state and my aunt and grandparents, my therapist was amazing. We would do individual sessions throughout the week and then my sister and I would do a group session with him throughout the week. And yeah, we would go see him at the county jail. And it was very, you know, and I kept a journal, right. And I've never read it until we wrote this book. And it's every day for two years, every emotion, everything I did, everything I felt. And you know, we would go see him and a lot of it was just, hey, how's the weather? And like, you know, he couldn't talk about it nor as a 12 year old, did you ever think about asking because at that time in your mind it's also fake. Like this is a dream.

Crazy.

So like for me to go to the prison and say, dad, why did you do that? I'm going to the jail to talk to my dad, knowing he's coming home.

Tomorrow, thinking he's going to get out.

Thinking he's going to get out because this isn't, this is just a big mistake. Like, you know, this didn't happen. So your conversation is completely skewed and steered because you don't have any concept of reality. And I was 12 years old and now for kids Today. Today's a lot different because the Internet exposure, information, violence, you're just exposed to so much more. But when we grow up at 12.

You didn't know anyone killed anyone.

I had RBI baseball.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like, I didn't have the Internet to know that there's people murdering and gangs and all this evil stuff. So you're not, you know, back in the day, you weren't exposed to the evil side of life, probably until you got into high school or college, because you just didn't see it. Right. Or at least where I grew up.

Parents are protecting you. Yeah, you've got a routine. You're playing sports, going home, having dinner.

You don't even know that the evil world exists. So now you're 12 years old and you're exposed to a side of the world that you didn't know existed. You gotta grow up fast, real fast. Make a decision on who do you want to be. You know, do you live in vision or do you live in circumstance? Do you make this an excuse? And now. Are you saying these words as a kid? No. But it's all happening, whether you realize it or not. I had the greatest help imaginable. So then, yeah, my sister and I went through about a year, year and a half of therapy. And then the final closing, if you will, was basically my therapist said, okay, we're going to go see your dad. He's now sentenced and he's at Walla Walla State Penitentiary. And you're gonna tell him whatever you want. You've now had a year and a half to process this. Your reality is now it's set in, like, you know what it is, You've accepted it. So now what would you like to say to him? Knowing that this isn't a nightmare or dream and knowing you're not gonna wake up and this happened.

Right.

I mean, that's deep, right?

What'd you say?

Well, and then the other thing that was powerful to me is after that happened, and we'll get to that, the therapist basically gave us a hug and said, okay, I'm done. Like, you kids are.

You're on.

You're on. Like, we're probably never gonna talk again.

Really.

And that's part of closure, really. Acceptance.

Wow.

Knowing that there's journeys, there's beginnings, there's ends, and that good things can happen, bad things can happen. But when that chapter closes, it's okay. It's okay.

Time to move on.

It's okay, kids. Like, I've done my job and it's time to move on and rock on. I think I've given you guys a foundation of who you are and who you want to be and the tools.

To move forward when you're. Yeah.

Go spread your wings.

Wow.

So, yeah. So my sister and I and my aunt flew with us to Walla Walla State Penitentiary. And this was probably since the end of the trial. We didn't see him or have communication when we would go see him at the county. You're talking through glass, but it's not real.

Right now you get to see him. You can touch him.

You could hug him.

Well, no, no, it was still behind glass.

Really? At the prison?

Yeah. But I think for me, it was the realization of when I would go see him at the county jail. Like I said, it was all a dream.

He's coming back.

You're not taking in the fact that you can't touch him. And there's a phone. You don't take that in. Well, now a year and a half goes by. You've accepted your reality, and now you walk in, and everything, every sense, every observation is just magnified. Cause you're like, okay, I get this now.

This is real.

This is real. And we walk in, and just the coldness, the cement, the clank of the doors, like, the echoing of the intercoms and the guards and the jingling of keys. Like, all this stuff was like in a movie where everything goes quiet. And you just hear that one sound, just super loud. Right. Sat down, and then all of a sudden, it was glass. And I remember going, wow. Okay. And then he comes in and, you know, in his scrubs or whatever you call him, and then picks up the phone, and it's like, oh, my gosh. Like, this is your life now. This is my life.

Wow.

And, you know, that conversation was a blur. You know, there's a lot of things that I remember and I don't remember. I feel bad. Are we allowed to, like, cuss or. No. Yeah. I mean, bleep out certain stuff. Because it's quoted, right? I just remember saying, shut the F up.

Yeah.

Like, this is my time now.

Wow.

And I'm the man of this house.

Wow.

You're, like, 13, 14, and you're the youngest of.

Yeah, I was the youngest of three.

Yeah.

So my. It was my brother three years later, my sister three years later, me.

Was he trying to give you some instructions or something?

Or you just said, nope. He was just sitting there. Some words were exchanged. I mean, I think both of us got emotional at times. And then I remember saying, f you and he said, f me? F you.

Wow. He said it back to you?

Yeah.

Wow.

I'll never forget. And then why would he say that?

Well, why would he just say, you know what? You're right. I'm sorry, I messed up.

That's a great question. And I've spent so many years thinking of that, and then it comes down to you become an adult. I became an adult. And I said, well, you know what? And I remember writing this book. I remember going, God dang, if I were him, what would I have done in that moment? And then I said, you know what? I probably would have done the same thing.

Wow. Why?

Because the kids forgetting about me or hating me is probably going to be the best thing for them to move on. Like, am I going to drag these kids through this? Now, whether that was his motive or not, that's not what this is about. I'm not justifying his actions. I'm not agreeing with what he did, but if it were me, why would I have done that? And you know what? This is what I've learned, too, is that whether that's his motive or not, it's irrelevant. But if I can come to peace at why he did it within the own story that I tell myself and I can understand, that's all that matters. And I said, man, I wonder if, you know, what am I gonna drag these kids to? Like, what am I like, you know what?

13 years coming here every week with me, I'm out.

Wow.

So you know what? F you, kid. That's crazy. And then I left. And that was it.

That was the last time you saw him? You never called him?

No. No. So I learned years later that there was a deal made where I guess if our family didn't sue him civilly, he would do nothing about contacting us, fighting for custody. He would basically, I'm out. And I get it. Take the kids. I'm out.

If he didn't sue him.

Yeah. Because you have a criminal trial. Right. Then you have a civil trial. And the civil trial could be money. It could be anything. Yeah. So I think, from what my understanding was, is, don't sue me civilly. I'm out.

And you guys do what you want to do.

Yeah.

Wow.

And I, you know, as an adult, I respect it.

Yeah.

From my family side, my aunt and my grandparents, and from his side, that they did what they thought was best for the kids, and that was me.

When did he get out?

Just a few years ago at Thanksgiving.

Wow. Thanksgiving Day.

Yeah, Thanksgiving Day. Cold dinner.

Holy cow.

In fact, we were playing the Detroit Lions in Detroit, and we played an afternoon game on Thursday. Chip Kelly said, hey, you guys are off Friday, Saturday, Sunday. If you guys want to fly out of Detroit and go home and have Thanksgiving dinner in California, where you guys live, go ahead. So myself, Mark Sanchez, and a couple guys, we got a flight. We bounced out, and I went home for Thanksgiving. At the time, it was my girlfriend, which is my wife now. We were a gay girlfriend. I don't remember, but we were together, and it kind of Couple glasses of wine, telling some stories. And what's great is the conversation was all positive. You know, like, you're telling her, he's.

Getting out today, or you knew that he was getting out.

No. So he had gotten out years and years and years and years ago.

Oh, okay.

But when we. I'm sorry. When we went back for that Thanksgiving dinner, there's been times where we've had conversations about my family that just get heated and too emotional. And then there's times where we've had conversations about our past within my family that it's actually a good conversation. Like, it was actually. It didn't go down this really negative, depressing path. And that Thanksgiving dinner was one of those conversations where Anneliese was there, and it just. It was just a good conversation that was. We talked about our past, but, like, the vibe was that, hey, we're live.

Yeah.

And it just kind of came out that, like, you know, when that'll happen. We just agreed to not sue him civilly, and he wouldn't contact you and this and that. And I'd never heard that. And I was like. And I didn't make an issue of it, but I was like, okay, that's actually pretty cool. Like, I totally get that.

Wow.

And then I instantly go into, what would I have done if these were my brother's kids or something? You know what? I probably would have done the same thing.

Wow.

And what's funny is, you know, adults, they've been there, done that, you know? And so the beautiful part, or the silver lining of that decision was now, if I ever wanted to contact my dad or my sister or my brother, it'd be our decision. Like, we wouldn't have a pressure of an email or phone or whatever. He basically wasn't allowed to.

He wasn't allowed to.

Yeah.

So he's been out for how many years?

So he's been out longer than he was in. Right. So I think he got released in, like, 2004.

Wow.

So he got. He went in. In 92 and served what, 11, 12 years?

So you knew when he got out and. But you didn't contact him. He didn't contact you? Wasn't allowed to.

Yeah. And nor did I have any really desire at that time. I didn't really care either way. But, you know, I would always think like, you know, we lived in Woodinville in Seattle. I knew he was out in that area really. And, you know, I remember when we'd play the Seahawks, I was gonna be there. I would just look around, shut up, and I'd be like, you know what? I haven't seen this guy in a long, long time. But I feel like if I see him, I'll just. I'll know.

What would you do if you saw him in a game or something?

I don't know. But I remember walking out for pregames and stuff while sitting on the bench.

You look like, is he behind me?

Is he not in a scared way? You know, not in an intimidated way? Not. Not in a. I don't know how else to describe it other than it's. For me, it was curiosity.

Yeah. I wonder if he's curious enough to come. Yeah.

Or just.

Did he ever come to a game? Do you ever watch a game on TV or anything? I don't know.

I mean, how do you not. I mean, you know, but then again, would I be shocked either way?

So wait, have you talked to him since?

Yeah.

What happened?

So a lot of years went by and I got married and my wife got pregnant, and all of a sudden, a flow of emotions came back to me.

Couldn't imagine, man.

And I had thought that the book was done, and I just got out of open heart surgery.

This is a whole nother crazy story. Yeah, well, why don't we get back to that?

Right?

This is crazy.

All of a sudden, my wife gets pregnant, and I start feeling all these emotions of being a dad. And then I start thinking about everything that my dad and I missed out on. And about two, three. Yeah, about three weeks before my wife delivered our daughter, I looked at her and I said, I think I want to see my dad. And I realized that I'd never, like, just hung out with him. I never had lunch with my dad as an adult. And as I grew up, my buddy Paul and John and Danny and my friends, they'd be like, yo, hey, we're going to meet my dad. You want to come? Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's go. And I remember they would just sit and like, go get pizza with their dad or like, just ice cream or hang out Just hang out. Right as they got into junior high and high school and college. And, like, I saw those relationships develop with them. And then when I was about to have my daughter, I realized I didn't. You know, I had an uncle that my aunt married for a while that raised me. That was an amazing influence on me and was a great role model, but it's still not your dad. So I told my wife, I go, you know what? I. I think I want to sit and have lunch with my dad now. The hard part is I wanted to do this alone, and I didn't really want anybody to go with me. And nor did I tell anyone, because probably for one of the first times in my life, I really didn't care what you had to say.

Wow.

I didn't care your opinion. I didn't care if you agree with me, if you disagree with me. I didn't need to hear anybody else's opinion on the decision that I wanted to make.

For me, you were doing this no matter what.

I was doing it no matter what. Wow. And I just didn't care what anybody else thought.

Right. And your wife was on board. She was okay with it.

She was on board. But I wanted to do it alone.

Yeah.

And I know for a fact that I wouldn't have had the heart to say stay behind, because she. She just wanted to be in the hotel room. Just want to be there. And my wife's amazing. Right. So, ironically, the timing just worked out. She couldn't travel anyways.

Right.

Yeah. So, like. And. And none of that was premeditated or pre. It's just. That's just the way it all happened. Right. So I was performing in Calgary, Canada, and I was heading to Vegas, doing a magic show. Yeah. And I sent. Still playing in the NFL or. No, so I'm done playing after. Yeah. So this whole thing just happened, like, a few months ago.

Shut up, dude.

Yeah. This whole five months ago. And so I'd been out of the league two years, and I shot an email. Actually, the NFL did a piece, and they contacted him and they said, hey, do you want to do this? And he said, unless everybody comes forward and it's okay with all my kids, I'm out. And so, you know, he goes, it's not fair to everybody else.

All the kids come.

Unless the entire family come to me and say, hey, we would like you to do this interview, I'll do it. If not, I'm out.

Oh, wow.

And so. But I knew that they had his contact info, and I'd never asked for it. I didn't care at the time. Cause that was years ago. So I hit up the guy that did the piece and said, hey, by any chance, do you still have my dad's email? He shot it to me.

Wow.

So I shot my dad an email that said, it said, hey, I don't really know what to say. I have no expectations. I don't want anything from you, but if you want to sit and have coffee sometime, let me know.

Holy cow.

This is what, 20 years after you'd seen him?

27.

Holy cow.

26.

Yeah.

And sure enough, he wrote me back and said, I've been waiting for your time to be right. I would love that. I don't really know what to say either.

Wow, 26 years he's been waiting for you to reach out to him.

Yeah. I mean, if it were me, you know, I mean, you're kind of waiting for your time to be right. Wow. You know, and so we basically set it up that I was going to go from Canada to Vegas. I just stopped and sat with him for five and a half hours. Where was he?

He was living in Vegas?

No, he was living up in the Washington area. Gotcha. And so I knew where he was at, so I stopped there. We met at a coffee shop. Yeah.

Five and a half hours.

Yeah, we spent five and a half hours. And I'm telling you, what was that like? Every emotion you can imagine played out.

And I remember rage, anger, sadness, love, joy, everything.

So I went in with kind of the emotional wherewithal and the self awareness of, okay, I'm not there for him.

Right.

So at the end of the day, I literally, I talk to myself and it's like a coach talking to me. And I literally go, at the end of the day, John, it doesn't matter what he says, it doesn't matter. His opinion, it doesn't matter. You don't need validation. Yeah, nothing. If he does, great. But if he doesn't, are you shocked? Right. So just manage expectations. Like you're not there for him, you're there for you. Remember that. Don't get caught up in the moment. Don't let the moment affect why you're there.

Get too emotional.

Just.

Just reactive.

Just be there for you. And it was kind of like a game. Like when the moment comes, everything quiets. And it's just the moment. And all of a sudden that's all you feel like you don't even feel or hear anything around you. You're just. You're in your lane. It's Kevin Costner. And for the love of the game, when he's pitching, clear the mechanism, it's just fades. And I remember when he walked in, instantly recognize him.

You did recognize him. Yeah. The energy, his face just like, wow.

Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't really know what to expect, you know? You don't. I didn't know.

You look old and weathered. Wow.

And he looked at me and he goes, you got big. And I looked at him and go, you got old. You know? And we sat down and I remember.

Shake.

Did you hug?

Yeah. And then we sat down and we ordered some food. And when I say every emotion happened, I remember there was probably five or 10 seconds.

You just wanted to.

No, no. I blinked and I told myself, I just want to have lunch with my dad.

Wow.

I just want to have lunch with my dad. I want to forget everything.

Wow.

And I just want to sit here. And I remember looking around and there was, you know, a teenager and an adult. I just figured, that's probably a dad and a kid. Right. And then I remember looking around going, if anybody in this area were to look at this table right now with my dad and I, they would not think that this is a man that just killed this kid's mom. And they haven't seen each other in 26 years.

Wow.

And I just remember observing everybody else. And then that lasted like five or 10 seconds. And you just. The movie, the Rolls over. Right. The little play date's over. And then reality kicks in. And I remember just. It was small talk and how was your day?

How are things going? What's it like being out, Whatever. Yeah.

And then I just said, hey, like, how did you survive? How did you survive? I mean, you're not a gang guy. You have no, you know, in prison. In prison, like, how'd you survive? And I'll never forget what he said. He goes, it was an accident. I survived on accident.

Wow.

Yeah. And then we talked about some things that, you know, I won't get into.

Sure. And then he probably went through a lot in prison. Probably had to deal with.

It's prison.

It's probably more pain than just killing yourself, you know, more emotional trauma. It's a lot of trauma.

Well, look, I've. You know, he didn't disclose a lot about what happened behind the walls.

Yeah.

But I've seen ever since he got locked up and the documentaries came out, I've watched them all on prison.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, you're a white male that went in there for a hate crime on a woman.

Yeah, yeah.

Like you're not exactly. You're up there with. You're in the same list as pedophiles when it comes to inmate respect. So what he went through is. That's his demons, right?

Yeah.

But I remember I would. At the moment, I all of a sudden wanted answers. What happened?

What did mom do?

I'm gonna go way back, dude. I gotta go way back. So we were at the trial when I'm 12 years old, and they're gonna show the autopsy photos of my mom.

Oh, my gosh.

And my therapist said, hey, look. Looked at my sister and I and said, I want you guys to see these.

I want you to see this. Oh, my God. To see what your dad did.

Mm.

Oh, my gosh.

And then when the trial happened, the autopsy photos were angled so only the jurors could see it. The cameras couldn't see it, the people watching couldn't see it. My therapist got upset, so he went. And we were the first minors to ever get a private court order for a viewing of an autopsy photo. So we went downtown to the prosecutor's office. And I'll never forget, they walked in, dropped the folder and said, I can't believe you're doing this to these kids. And they kind of walked out. So my sister and I are just sitting there. Dude, you're just sweating.

Oh, my God.

My heart's just racing. Now, keep in mind, I don't even know what this is.

You're like, what's going on?

I'm 12.

Yeah.

I don't even know what I'm getting into, but people are mad at the therapist for wanting this. And I'll never forget, she leaves. And he just very calmly turned and he said, you know what, guys? I don't even care if you look at it. Who said this? My therapist. He goes, everybody thinks I want you to do this. And everybody thinks it's a bad idea, but why should it be anybody else's decision?

Because here it is, if you want to look at it. If not, we can walk.

We can go away. Wow.

So he said, I'm gonna leave. You either look or not. And I won't even ask you, but if it's up to me, this is your decision.

This is your life, and I would want to know.

Yeah. Well, he gets up, and right before he walks out that door, he looks at my sister and I and says, I know how the world works. I'm trying to get you guys to understand what forgiveness can do to you. So if you're in your 30s or 40s, maybe you have kids, maybe you don't. But if you ever decide to have lunch with your dad and to meet him again and to talk, it'll be for reasons other than what happened. Because that right there is what happened. And I know that doesn't sound like a popular decision right now, and I know nobody out there is saying, go see your dad in 20 years, but if you do, it'll be for reasons other than what happened. It's your call. So, sure enough, he walks out. And I peeked and I saw it.

Wow.

And some were bad. Really bad.

Yeah.

But the ones I remember were the bruises on her hand. She had little bruises. And that was from her trying to protect herself.

Oh, my gosh.

Those are the ones that I remember. And so I never. Once that day happened. We went to the Puget Sound. We stood on a cliff, and we just screamed. He's like, just scream all you want. I couldn't tell you how long I was there. And after that moment, I never thought about it. Wow. You let it out. Yeah.

You let it go.

Just let it go. And I never had nightmares about it. I never thought about it until I'm about to be a dad.

Wow.

And then I told my wife, it's time. And I remember being on the plane, looking outside, going, you son of a bitch. I'm seeing my dad for reasons other than wanting to know what happened. Wow. And it just came full circle.

Holy cow.

I just got the chills.

But now I'm there sitting with my.

Dad, because you didn't need to know what happened.

You saw what happened. Saw it. So no matter what he said, you're like, I saw what you did. I saw it. There's nothing you can say to change that.

Yeah. You can't persuade me in another way. Like, I saw what happened. You could have stopped at any moment. You could have maybe hit her once and been like, whoa, what am I doing?

Yeah.

You didn't have to finish it, right?

Like, oh, he finished it.

Right?

Yeah.

So what did you.

Well, so now you're taking all this. I'm taking all this in. And now when I'm sitting there with him, I wanted answers. I did.

Yeah.

I would, too.

And you know what? I know what happened. But I want to know what happened.

Are you gonna lie or are you gonna.

Yeah, I wanna know. And it was that there's that fine line right there that. I didn't come there to debate. I didn't come there to argue. I didn't come there to prove a point. So I just subtly asked, what Happened? Yeah. Like I said, I just subtly asked. And then do you feel like he.

Was authentic and honest about it, or was he.

At times. Yeah, at times in the conversation, I do. And then at times in the conversation, I just felt like it's kind of. There's a. It's just shut off.

He's probably also, like, had to block out a lot of stuff and so much trauma that, you know, not saying it's okay, but stepping in his shoes, it's probably just like, maybe it was this way, maybe it was that way.

Like, so you just. You just brought up a really interesting concept. And I asked him. I asked him that exact question, and I was prepared for two answers that I was perfectly. That I was totally okay accepting. You did it. You're in prison. Do you either bottle it up and forget about it, or do you just come to peace with yourself and say, I did it and you're over it and you move on, and it is what it is? And you know what? If you don't agree, screw the world.

Right?

Those are the two things that it's like. And you know what? I get both.

Yeah.

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And it's not about whether he was right or wrong. It's not about whether I agree with what he did or not. But I can step back and say I get both.

And what are you saying?

He just said he came to terms, and I don't really know if I believe him. You know, I think it's. I think it's part coming to terms in part just turn it off. Just turn it off. Put in a bottle and toss it. I think there's a. I think there's a combination. So here's what happens. So now I want answers. I want to know what happened. And I would ask some questions, and it didn't really go anywhere. And then the subject would get trained. It'd be a pull, you know, change to, like, politics or, like, you know, the problems with you know prisons and drugs and all this. It just kind of go off on a tangent, and I would just kind of take a deep breath and just step back and say, okay, you know what? That's not why I'm here. It's not why I'm here. Right? And so after about five and a half hours, he apologized. Not for doing what he did, but for causing pain. And this was the moment that took me back to when I was 14 and when I was 22. So my mom died. And when she died, she had a jewelry box that my grandparents and my aunt found. And then they opened it up, and she had necklaces in there for my brother and my sister and I. And when we would have turned 18, she was going to give us those necklaces. It was a St. Christopher. And so, sure enough, my family gives it to me, and I wore it everywhere. So I go to the beach. I jump in the ocean in Huntington Beach. Cows. So we moved down to Southern California with my Aunt Susan. And I remember being at the beach, and I got out of the ocean, and it was gone. Devastated.

How old are you?

Like, 14, 15. I was devastated. And I looked for it. Like, I would go back and look in the sand, dude. I literally. I didn't have any money. I gave the. There was, like, a guy with a metal detector. I'm like, dude, I'll give you five bucks if you find this necklace, right? He's like, you didn't find anything. But after looking for it and after being, like, depressed about it, feeling like I lost my mom, there was a defining moment in my life when I was looking at the ocean, and I said, you know what? I didn't lose it. It's not my fault. I was never meant to have it. And it became the defining moment of. I can change the story in my own head to make sense of what happened, to believe it in a different way that's a little bit more romantic about life, and it'll motivate me, and I can take a negative and find motivation within it. And I told myself that my mom always wanted to go to Australia, and so it hopped on a whale and went over to Hawaii.

Oh, my gosh.

And a sea turtle took it to Australia. And then she went to Thailand and Japan. And now all of a sudden, my mom's been all over the world. And so now whenever I see the ocean, I know she's been there and done that. And there she is. And so now losing that necklace, which I thought was going to be an awful thing, it ended up Being probably the coolest thing to this day, because I know where she's at. So then I turn 22, I go back to that same beach, and I remember looking out into the ocean. I said, mom, look, I went through all this therapy, and I forgive dad. And at that moment, I felt so guilty because I was conflicted that I thought that my mom was going to hate me for it and resent me and thought I was picking sides. And I remember going, okay, I'm gonna turn it. If you want me to be the man you want me to be, I gotta get rid of this. Like, there's somebody in my life that's affecting my life, that's no longer in my life. That's my fault. And so all of a sudden, I started.

Gibson is not saying it's about them being right or wrong.

It's not.

It's about you being at peace with whatever's happening and you letting it go so it doesn't rule your life.

Power over you 100%. And now that. That right there is so deep, because forgiveness, it's not really talked about in school. And I think that myself and a lot of people just think it's about winning and losing. If I forgive you, it's because I'm okay with what you did, and let's just move on with our lives, right? And at that moment, I realized it's not. It has nothing to do with what that person did. It had nothing to do with whether I agree with what that person did. It has nothing to do if I still have a relationship with that person. How do I come to peace in terms of my reality, to find some positive energy to make something of myself? And I had to let go of this burden and the hating, the blaming. I just had to get rid of this cloud. So I read a quote that Nelson Mandela had. I might get it wrong, but I'll paraphrase. Guy goes to prison. We all know when he's in prison. He gathers the inmates and says, hey, if they don't have our souls, we're free men. He goes, I was free in prison. I got out of prison and became so bitter at the time, lost, that I wasn't in prison until I mentally put myself in prison when I was a free man. And I went, whoa, that's crazy. Crazy. And so he had to, like, get rid of this bitterness of time lost, to free his own mind, even though he was free. And I was like, you know what? It's time for me to free my own mind. And resentment and anger and all these things that I kind of would just keep internally. So I looked up and said, I forgive dad. But, Mom, I forgive him for being lost, and I've forgiven him for making a mistake. Because I've done that. I'm guilty of that. And you know what? I can live with that. And so all this has happened in my head. Right?

22.

22. So now all of a sudden, here I am sitting at the table, and before I went to see my dad, I remember thinking, I've never said three words out loud. I've never said I forgive you out loud. And so to my dad. And so when I was at. I saw him, I just. At times that I wanted to probe or at times I wanted answers, I just stepped back and said, why are you here? Because you have three words that you've never said.

Oh, my gosh.

And it doesn't matter. This new concept of forgiveness doesn't matter at all. What he has to say, what he thinks, whether I agree with it, whether I disagree. He could have come in and said, I love you. I'm so sorry. This is exactly what happened. I'm a piece of shit. He could have. But would that have made you still resent.

You still resent him?

Does it matter?

Yeah, it doesn't matter.

He could have said, you know what? I did what I had to do, and f the world, and he could have. But is that why I'm there? No. So it doesn't matter. I wasn't there to seek validation. I wasn't there. It was for me. And so after he said, I'm sorry for causing pain, I basically said, you know what? I forgive you for being lost, and I forgive you for making a mistake, both of which I have made many. And he just looked at me, and that was the time where I think it got real. Like, that's the time where, you know, the eyes glaze over. And I think it was just. That was real.

Wow.

And I basically said, hey, I gotta bounce, you know? And so right after that, all right, peace out. You know, we talked for a little bit longer, but it was, you know, the substance of the conversation. I don't really know the magnification of it. And so now I kind of felt guilty in a way that I didn't even tell my family. Right. And now they didn't know.

You went to go see your dad?

And my grandparents. You know, I love him more than anything, and I think part of it, too, is I want them to hear it. I still haven't told them.

You haven't told your grandparents that you went to go see them.

Really? And it's been hard, but I think I want him to hear it through things like this. Wow. So that I. Not that they would. Not that they would interrupt, not that anything like that would happen, but I can just talk or they could just read and get it in the full context of why I did it. And I think it would be a real hard conversation for me to have. And I respect them and love him more than anything, but hopefully they hear this or they read it and realize it's not. I don't want a relationship with him. I don't. It was for me. And I'm now heading back. I get on the plane, and I remember being. Saying, I feel great. I hope I did the right thing. And I remember opening the window of the plane, and it was like the best sunset I've ever seen in my life. And so to me, that was my mom. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing. So I land, I see my wife, and then now the time comes that I'm. She's giving birth to my daughter. And I. You know, the other thing, too, that I want to touch on. And I don't know if I said this or if I did just. You can interrupt me, but I wanted to sit at the table with my dad and feel every emotion about that relationship. And I wanted to think about everything that him and I missed out on and everything that should have been having my mom there, having my dad there, the things he should have taught me how to do, the way I should have looked up to this man. And then I wanted to look at him in the eyes and look into his soul and feel everything he did wrong in his life. And maybe I'll leave a better father because of it. And that was a hard thing to do. And we have friends that were in our. My wife and I's wedding. One of them, pen pal with her dad, hadn't seen him for whatever reason. And then all of a sudden, they wanted to see. You know, she wanted to see him. And he passed away. I have a relative father searched for him, passed away. They never got to see him. And I didn't want to be that guy, you know? And that's why I did it. Like, I didn't want to be that guy. To wish I would have had just a few hours with him, just to have a conversation. Yeah. Yeah. And part of it, it's for me. And I remember sitting at that table and. And feeling that entire time of my life all over again, but taking it in a way not of resentment, not of hate, not of blame. Instead, what did you do wrong that maybe will help me not do the same thing? What can I do right now to look into your soul to make my daughter's life better?

Wow.

And that is me trying to take a negative and take the story and find motivation in it. Because the reality is this. Life happens. Life doesn't care who you are, doesn't care. Your religion, your race, what language you speak, how much money you have, it doesn't matter. But all of a sudden, if you look at it that way, you become a victim of everything that happens. Bad, right? Oh, it happened to me because of this. No, it happens to everybody. And it might happen to different people at different times, at different severities, but the reality is life happens whether you want it to or not. So the sooner you can sit there and say, you know what? It is what it is, and guess what? That person's got problems. And so does that person and that person and that person. So the sooner I can come to terms with my own reality, the sooner I can say, hey, this is what it is. I'm not gonna let this take me down. The sooner I have acceptance, the sooner I have forgiveness, the sooner I can look back on that and say, you know what? Here's what I'm gonna take from it. Rock on. I'm out. And I'm gonna keep moving. I'm gonna keep on keeping on. And right. So at that moment, that was my moment. Here I am. This is my reality, whether I like it or not. And I'm gonna take this and I'm gonna find something. Because if I don't, then this eats you.

You're gonna be bitter, you're gonna be grateful. Yeah.

But if you can take that and just find something of, why did I go through this? Why did life put me through this? Then all of a sudden, you can deal with it, at least for me. And so you ready for this? So my daughter's now born. She comes out, they put her on my wife. My daughter's hand just brushed her face. I got everything on video. It's insane.

Oh, my gosh.

And then they hand her to me.

I would lose it.

And I turned around and I had about five seconds where everything stopped. It was the moment that time stood still for me. And the beeping, the chaos, everything stopped.

Wow.

And I looked at her and I just said, hey, you'll forever be able to have lunch with your daddy.

Oh, my gosh.

And you'll never look at me the way I looked at him.

Oh, my gosh, man.

That was the first thing I ever told my daughter.

Oh, my gosh.

And that's. That meant so much more to me. You know, if people read that, it just sounds okay. You can have lunch with your dad. But that put my entire life's journey into one sentence of what that means to me. And being a dad's the coolest thing.

In the world, man. Wow.

It's the coolest thing in the world.

Do you wish you would have been a dad sooner?

Yes and no. I enjoyed my 20s.

It was the right time.

Yeah, well, you know what? It is right time and right person. You need the right person. You need the right person and for more than one reason. So, you know, the reality is I was married, divorced, and then I got remarried to just an amazing woman. And look, I've been there, done that, right? So as you get into this journey, you reevaluate people. And I remember thinking, okay, if this doesn't really work out, I'm not going into it like that. But things happen. I got a great woman who's going to be an amazing mom.

If I.

If I die, if it doesn't work.

Out, if we don't work out, I can trust that she's going to be a great mom.

And now that doesn't mean divorce. That doesn't mean it could be death. It could be. There's a lot of things that can happen in this world.

Whatever. Yeah.

I can be paralyzed forever. Like, you don't know. You don't know what life's going to throw at you. Right. Because life happens. It's just the way it is. But I know that I got an amazing woman that is going to be the greatest mom in the world that I love more than any. Let's roll. Let's roll.

Yeah. What was the biggest lesson that you learned from your dad growing up? And then what was the biggest lesson you learned when he was gone? When he was in prison?

Wow. When you're single and when you're alone, your decisions affect a lot less people. What you do has consequences, but it's going to affect a smaller circle. Well, all of a sudden, when you get married and you have kids, that circle just magnified and became a lot more impressionable. And now your actions can really affect people's lives that are a piece of you, that are a part of you, that are a breathing piece of you. I learned that. That when you're a part of that, it's time to Put the big boy pants on. Because maybe what you think is best for you and it's not best for your family. Well, it's time to do what's best for your family, and it's time to really think about your decisions. Because now I don't answer just to my wife and to myself. Now I have a little girl. I don't have a son yet, but I sit back and go, okay, if I had a son, how would things be different with how I would raise him? But now I have a little girl, and I'm not perfect. I think I still kind of have side effects from the open heart surgery, which, you know, we'll get into that. There's emotional and hormonal, all this stuff and meds and stuff, so. But I try to say, okay, she's observing how I am treating her mom every moment. Every moment.

Even if she's six months old, she's still feeling the energy. Yeah.

And whatever happens in this house is going to be what she's going to expect in a relationship. If it's going south, then don't be shocked if she gets an abusive relationship and just thinks it's normal and it's okay. And then she becomes just not the happy person she deserves to be. So having a daughter is about dating your wife and dating your daughter. And look, I get frustrated at times. Right. Everybody argues at times. You know, having a baby is stressful, you know. Yeah. And it just so happens that, like, the small window of time that we had my child is literally the busiest time of my career. And it's like the book came out and it's just like a lot's going on. And so we've been trying to manage that. And so it's been frustrating, lack of sleep and all that. But aside from that, Right. It's who do I want my daughter to marry? And it should be a man like me. And if it's not, then what do I need to change?

Wow.

And that's kind of how I try and go about. And again, look, I sometimes lose my temper and stuff. Right. But when you sit back, it's a life journey of. Of soothing our own souls and finding peace and trying to influence this kid in a way that she's never been influenced before, you know, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How long were you playing in the NFL for?

So I was going into my 15th.

15 seasons with the same team.

So I did Buffalo for two, Tennessee for a year and a half, and then Philly picked me up, second half of the season. So I was in Philly, 11 and a half 12. And then I got traded to New Orleans. And so let me tell you this. So I'm in Philly, right? I get there, and long story short, you never know how you treat people. And, well, you know how you treat people, but you never know who you're gonna come across that's gonna make a huge difference in your life. So don't burn a bridge, right? And just be cool, be nice. So I go to Texas.

Hard to do sometimes.

It is, it is. So I go to Texas, El Paso, and I just try and I conduct.

Kind of like fake your way in, in a sense.

Okay, so here's rap, right? So I think, I think I'm a pretty good high school player.

Yeah, Right.

I lead the league in tackles, right. Didn't even make all league. Yeah. I was so mad. I was so mad.

So pissed.

So mad.

I didn't the league in tackles. You don't make it.

I remember my backup got second team. What? And I'm like, the backup? Yeah.

How's that possible?

Thank you. A little better. Okay. I was a little upset at that. So I, I, I, I. Okay. All these junior colleges are saying, hey, come play, come play. And you had Long Beach City and Palomar and all these 150 guys out there. But they're good.

Yeah, they're good.

But I remember going, man, if, if I go here, you know, I played for a guy named Bill Simpson. I played with his son Jason. Bill played for nine years in the league. He was our coach. Amazing. I'll never forget, he said this. If you play, they'll find you. If you're sitting the bench, ain't never going to be seen, kid. So I was like, go play somewhere. Just get on the field. If you're not on the field, you ain't going to go nowhere.

You're going nowhere.

So Golden West Junior College, it's one of my. My buddy Paul Tessier, we put high school together. He's one of my best friends. He went there. They're 0 and 30. Okay, now I remember this.

Get on the field, though.

If I can't, if I can't play here, hang it up. We were the Bad News Bears. And so I went there and we went 0:10. So 0:40. So we became the longest losing streak in college football history that I was a part of.

Right.

Something to hang your hat on. A record, nonetheless. So now all of a sudden, I'm academically eligible to transfer out as a sophomore, and I'm not really getting any looks and I put the film on. I thought I played really well. Like, you know, I was a defensive guy. I was really good at, like, open field tackles and covering receivers. And I was never the hard hitter. I was never like the super uber physical guy, but I'd make tackles, like, get in there. I made. I just found a way to make plays and nothing. I guess not a lot of. Not a lot of coaches are going to own 40 schools.

Right.

They just kind of like, drive right by you.

Yeah.

So I said, hey, let me get some game film, put a highlight tape together. I'm gonna send it. Send it out and send it to my buddy Paul Tessier at utap, you know. So I'm making my highlight tape. It's good. Like, look, I had good clips on there. I had some footage of me snapping in high school, so I put that on there. And then all of a sudden I was like, man, Nick Heinle, his teammate of mine, both white guys, both look the same. I was 47, he was 48. This is before the Internet and HD camera. So everything's grainy. So, like.

Yeah. You know, now.

Right.

And we rotated positions so it's the same position on the field. Yeah. Right. So he. He literally.

He's a long snapper, too?

No, no, no. He was a linebacker. He destroyed people. Like, he. He had three hits that I remember. He knocked the dude out and he knocked himself out. Like, when I say I don't think I've ever been a part of him, just straight up harder hitter. I just took his huge hits.

No way. You put it on your game film a couple.

That's amazing. So it's like me being like the finesse guy and just making plays, and then all of a sudden, just like rushing hits. It's like, dude, this guy's amazing. Wow. And then I was like, man, I haven't snapped in a while. Tess said they need a snapper. Dude, this guy, Tim Thurman, he was our 6, 6 long snapper. He was better than. Than I ever was. And so he ended up going to Cal Berkeley, I think, to play baseball. He was better then as a long.

Snapper than you were in the NFL probably.

Oh, yeah, dude, this guy six, six money every time. Why didn't he go play in the NFL? He picked baseball. Yeah. You know, so I took some of his snapping, and it's like literally the greatest highlight tape ever known to mankind. Right. So UTEP gets and goes. This guy's unbelievable. Yeah. We'll give you a full scholarship. We need a snapper. And my buddy Paul's like, yep, let's go. So I went there, passed the test. You know, it was all good. Struggled a little bit, you know, figured it out because now that I got the scholarship, now I'm going to really have to hone this skill. Like, look, I was good, but I wasn't great.

You're okay. Alongside.

I was better than what was out there. But at the time is not nearly the standard that it is.

D1 level.

Yeah, yeah, no, but I knew I was D1 level. Well, I thought I was D1 level. Now, here's the secret. Here's really my motive, okay? And people laugh at this, but this is the honest guy truth. I said this before, I want to be a rock star. I did. I just want to be a rock star. The energy is insane. So I had opportunities to play baseball. And I went and saw a buddy of mine who was at Long Beach State. And I just remember sitting at practice going so boring.

Slow five hours, can't do that.

Outfield, can't do it. So I wanted the energy of football. And I told myself my goal is I wanted to play in front of 100,000 people. How do I do it? College football.

College football, man.

So I went to utep. We were good the first year. One of my first games was at Oklahoma. 98,612 or 602 people. Crazy. I was 2,000 short. But I remember going out, going, 98,600 and change. Okay, we're almost there.

Gotta go play with the Buckeyes, man.

Yeah, yeah, we're almost there. Yeah, right. So I played at utep. Everything went good. And then I got an agent and, well, a buddy of mine went to the Tennessee Titans and he said, hey, man, you can snap in this league. So, like, use my agent. He's amazing. I go, cool. Done. So I'll never forget a team called and said, hey, we're going. We want to give Dorn boss 50 grand. I didn't get drafted, so I was a free agent. We want to give Dorn boss 50 grand up front. Come, you know, come play for us. My agent calls me and says, scamming.

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You just got an offer. 50 grand for a free agent snapper back in early 2000. Like, this is legit. But I wouldn't take it if I were you. I'm like, what? We mean? He goes, the Buffalo Bills are going to give you three grand, and you should take that. Why? I go, ken, what are you talking about? Because you'll play. There he goes, because if you go to Buffalo, it's your job to lose. If you go to this other team, they're not getting rid of their guy. You're going to be the camp body, get them through the preseason so the guy doesn't get hurt, and then they're going to cut you. And to them, that's worth 50 grand. Wow. So to not lose their best, to not lose their. To not lose the guy that's been there forever, that's honestly one of the greatest that's ever played that position. Right. But I didn't at the time. You're not processing that, Right? So he goes, take the three grand, be happy, and just. It's your job. There's no other snapper in camp. So if you get the.

If you fail, don't mess up.

Don't mess up.

Don't get hurt.

Yeah, don't get hurt. Okay. So I signed for three grand. It was like 1700 bucks after taxes, right? So I took some of the guys from utep, we went down to the stadium, Stampede, got some beers. Like an idiot, I put, like, 1500 bucks on the freaking cake. Barkeep, can these guys drink all night? Sure can.

Wow.

So then, you know, the next morning, I'm like, that was so stupid. It was so fun. Now I've got, like, 200 bucks, but my buddies are happy, right? So then I. Yeah, I played in Buffalo, Tennessee, and then in Philly, and, you know, it was Funny. So when I got to Philly, that's kind of when I was figuring out who I was as a player. And it all comes back to this moment, right? Don't burn bridges, right? Because you never know. So Tennessee, I filled in for a guy that got hurt, and so he got healthy, and then they released me. So the guy in Philadelphia breaks his neck. Mike Bartram, great snapper. Breaks his neck, career injury. He's fine, but they needed a snapper, so it was me and three other guys. One guy's Adam Johnson. He was at University of Buffalo, and I mentored him when I was with the Bills. He was a long snapper, so I remember seeing him going, you gotta be shitting me. Like, I can't lose. It's this guy that I was, like, kind of helped out. John Kondo, great snapper, and me. So all of a sudden, we do some snaps, we do the drill. Andy Reid comes walking out, Big red. First time I'd seen him. Guy's a legend. Dorn. Boss. Come here. Yeah. And he would look straight ahead, and he would just move his eyes when he'd look at you. Like, I'd be here, and he'd be like this, flicking his pen, and all of a sudden, his eyes would just move and he'd look at you.

Really?

Bob Stowell called me, said, you're my guy. So Bob Stoll was the athletic director at utep. Bob Stoll gave Andy Reid his first big college coaching job, and they coached at UTEP back in the heyday. So when I was at utep, I just remember, anytime somebody asked me to do something, I always did it. Magic. Just events. It didn't matter because I was just so happy to be a part of family. So for me, sports was family. And coming from where I came from, I had a family that was kind of destroyed. And so now every team I'd been on, I just had this sense of loyalty that was just far superior than anything I'd ever felt, because that became my family. And I remember that my entire career, I always wanted the guy that gave me the opportunity to look back and say, I don't care if I could have had Michael Jordan on my basketball team. I'm glad I picked you.

Wow.

Because of the way you conduct yourself, Showing up on time, because the process, the preparation, because in the moment, everything. I just wanted that person to be proud that they gave me a chance because I was a little undersized, a little slow. I just want to make that guy proud. And maybe that was also the Lack of having a dad to make proud, that these people became this father figure that I just wanted to make proud.

And so Andy Reid said, you're my guy.

You're my guy. Bob Stoll said, you're my guy. And I'm like, bob Stoll. It'd been years.

Oh, my gosh. So he called Reed.

He said, hey, we got a utep kid. He goes, coach. He's a magician, and I promise you, it'll be the best thing that's ever happened in your locker room.

No way.

And he called it because he's got.

To connect with the team. He's going to.

You'll never have another kid like Torn boss. So Andy said, you're my guy, but I'm going to tell you right now, you want to be here, you're here. You want to lift weights, Lift weights. You want to run, run. You want to work out? Great. You want to study, study. If you don't, don't. But if it ain't there on Sunday, you're fired.

Wow.

And I was like, coach, you and I are going to get along. I'm going home. I'll see you at practice. And from that moment on, Andy and I were tight. He'd bring me to his office. I'd do a trick or two, and, like. And I was always a locker room guy. I was always a people guy. Like, I. You know. And so what ended up happening is I always wanted to make the guy that hired me proud, the owner and Andy, guys that gave me opportunities when other people didn't. I just wanted them to look back years down the road and say, I made.

It was a good choice.

Yeah, it was a good choice. And I remember I played through broken bones, torn ligaments, migraines. I mean, you name it. I've played through four hernias. I played through it all. And so next thing you know, I find out that I'm in line to break a record, and I'm like, I never. What record? What record? Right. And so I'm going to go back. When you ask players, what's your goal, you get all different answers. I want to win a Super Bowl. I want to be in the Pro Bowl. I want to sign for the most money ever at my position. Right? Everybody's got different personalities, goals that or records that they want to achieve. I remember looking around the locker room, and I got to play with a guy named Drew Bledsoe, who for me, was like, the man London Fletcher I got, you know. And then I go to Philly, and it's Westbrook and Fletcher, all these guys.

London Fletcher, he's a D3 guy. I played. I played in the same league as him.

Beast.

Yeah.

I had a locker next to London Fletcher my. My first two years.

It's funny, I went to a pro day at Buffalo after college and he was there training, like in the off season, and he was like, I don't know, 100 of us receivers.

What year is this?

2006.

Killer.

Yeah, 2006. I don't know. Were you there then?

No, no, I was in Tennessee.

Yeah. And he was like the only guy on the team there. It was just like a, you know, a pro day for receivers. But he was doing drills outside, and I remember being like, yeah, that's respect. That's like a D3 attitude. It's like no one cares about me. He went to John Carroll, I think.

Yep.

It was a capital. So.

So let me tell you a London Fletcher story that resonated with me. From that moment on, we're struggling on special teams. He's our starting middle linebacker, never missed a game. Who is a B superstar at the time. He's in his prime. He walks into the special teams meeting, looks, and back then it was the old school wedge, five guys, runner behind it and just pounding. And then we had a guy named Sam Gash, who was an old school, hard nosed fullback who just loved to hit people. Right. They don't have those anymore. So all of a sudden, London Fletcher walks in and Sam Gash is behind him. He looks at the two guys that set the wedge and said, you two, get out. Ain't getting the job done. Get out. I'm here to win.

Wow.

Sits down and says, coach, I'll set the wedge. Now, in the NFL, a lot of big time starters don't want to play special teams. One, because it's really tiring. Your injury rate's high and it's not exactly the sexiest glorious position. But here comes a superstar saying, hey, YouTube, set the wedge. Get out. I'm going to set the wedge. Which is probably the worst thing to do. It's the worst. It's.

It's headache, shoulder. I tore AC joints and all. Yeah.

So what happens? Sam Gash, who's another superstar, him and London Fletcher say they're going to set the wedge. We got a guy named Terrence McGee is our returner. First game back, they set the wedge. London takes out two dudes. Sam Gash hits a guy that just goes completely out. Terrence McGee takes it to the house.

Wow.

I'll never forget Sam Gash standing over the dude, looking at him as he's just laying there. And he looks at our sideline, he looks at their sideline, and he just goes trainer. And walks off the field, looks at the two dudes that they kicked off the team, the special teams play, and he goes, that's how you do it.

Oh, my gosh. That's just like. That's like a baller move. Oh, my gosh, Studs.

But as rookies, what that instills is it doesn't matter who you are. The job's got to get done. And either A, you're a guy that gets the job done no matter what, or B, you're not. And there is no excuses in between. It is either get it done or you don't.

Get off the field.

Get off the field now. So here's what happens. So now. So. So in the NFL, you get fined for everything, right? If you're late to a meeting, it's a fine. If you're late to this, 14 grand, if you're Jersey on tux, you got three plays to turn it in. 25 grand, everything gets fine. But I get it. You either have total discipline or you have no discipline. You turn on the game, and it's a very clean game. Right, because they enforce that. But now, I've had all these years where it's ingrained. You either get it done or you don't. There is no in between. Are you a guy or a woman that gets it done or do you not? I don't care what the excuse is. I don't care what's going on. It doesn't matter. Get it done. And then if you're late, I'm gonna find you because it's the only way that's gonna affect you. Oh, what, am I gonna not play you? It's the only thing that truly affects people's quality of life. Yes.

And the more you find. If you're going to find 100 grand being late, you're going to show up.

Oh, you show up real quick. Real quick, real quick. You're never late again, people.

Ever late.

No. Very rare. We had one guy that missed a team flight. We were playing, and I was in Philly, and you missed a team flight. Now check this out. You're fine for missing the team flight. You're fine for missing the team bus from the flight to the. To the hotel. You're fine for not checking into the hotel on time. You're probably going to be fine because you didn't make the meeting. Yeah, like, you're fine, right? So that could be $150,000 fine.

No way.

Oh, easy, dude. This dude got in his car and drove from Philly to New England and literally made it to the team meeting.

He was like, I'm not getting.

Find me for the flight, but I ain't missing. Right? So. But now what happens is you're like, you're ingrained on schedule and on a certain discipline and a certain way of thinking, and you become very results orientated, and you become very punctual on time. Well, then you get out of the game and you get in the real world, we're like, yeah, 15, 20 minutes late. That's fine. Drives me nuts. Yeah. Like, it drives me nuts. Or it's just like, hey, can you get this done? Yeah, yeah, I got you. And then it doesn't get done. You're like, you said, I don't understand, like, why didn't it get done? Like, that's why.

They're not professional athletes.

Well, because this is. No, that doesn't matter. Like, it didn't get. Like, it drives me nuts. And. And that's. It's just something that I got to just adjust to, you know? But, like, it's so. So here's what happened. So I'm looking at Bledsoe in London, and then I go over to Tennessee and I played with all these other guys, and I start realizing, what is my goal? Like, what is my. If somebody says, hey, what's your goal?

The long snapper?

Yeah, what's your goal? And I was like, you know what? I want to be the oldest guy on the team. I think that'd be a pretty good goal because that means a. I've got the most opportunity to win a Super Bowl. I've got the most opportunity to make it Pro bowl, and I've got the most opportunity to make a living. And that means that the guy that brought me here thought I was good enough to keep me for a long time. And that meant more to me than anything than the super bowl, than the money, than the anything. It was the respect of. You come up on time, you show up ready to work, you do whatever it takes. And you know what? It might not always look pretty, but I know for a fact that when.

I put you in, you're getting the job done.

When I call 46, the job's done. And so what happens? I'm playing in Philly. Hey, John, you know you're pretty close to breaking a record, right? Yeah. What's that? You're going to Play in the most consecutive games ever played as an Eagle.

Huh?

Excuse me. They're like, yeah, yeah. You're like, you know this season you're going to break it. And then all of a sudden I started to reflect back on what it took to do that and what I thought about that. And there were defining moments that I'll never forget and why I did what I did. Not to break a record, but because a reporter asked me, he goes, dude, how did you play through this injury? So what ended up happening is I got rolled up on and tore ligaments in my ankle blew up. Doctor said, eight weeks, you're out. And this was at the beginning of the season. It was week four, and Andy Reid came to me and said, I'm not going to put you on IR. This is in 2008. I'm not going to put you on IR because if we make the playoffs, I want you in the playoffs. So you're basically going to be on the active roster for eight weeks and injured, injured. And I'm like, okay. So then I step out, I go in the locker room, and I look at some of my teammates that were good buddies. Oh, wait a minute. If I'm on the active roster, that means one of these guys is getting fired because they got a clear roster spot to bring in another snapper to fill in for me. Well, dude, that dude's got kids. That guy's been bouncing around this guy his whole life. This is all he's ever wanted. Now he's got it. And these are the dudes that are on the bubble that are going to get cut. So I went into Andy Reid's office on crutches. I say, hey, coach, I'm playing. Huh?

Oh, my gosh.

I said, just give me till Friday.

Wow.

Bring in a guy, do whatever you got to do, but don't sign him. Just give me till Friday. So I told Rick the trainer, I'm like, rick, we're playing, huh? I go, rick, we're playing. And he goes, I freaking love it. Thorn boss. So I like slept at the facility for a week, right? Three hours on, three hours off. So Friday comes and like, everybody, like the trainers are looking like, dude, you're freaking nuts. Right? We tape it up. I go on the field and I hobble, jog, run from one side of the field to the next. Warm ups. Just, just, yeah, let's just see if you can walk. And so I, I do this, right? You're like galloping down, right? But I make it to the other side. I turn around And I make it back, and I see big red in the. In the. In the window, you know, overlooking kind of like this. Overlooking the field. And I just go, so. So he walks away. And I'm like. So I look at Rick, I go, I'm playing, man. I end up, you know, back then, you know, you could take a few shots and, you know, just do whatever you got to do. I wrapped it up. And so now I'm going out to pregame. And I never forget this, man. Coach Culley looks at me and goes, dorn boss, just snap it and get off the field. I said, f you, coach. We're snapping a game winner. I'm making a solo tackle. And he just looked at me like, you're an idiot. Right? And so now we're doing pregame. And now the Giants have all their guys walking around me, just following me, seeing if I'm going to limp, right? Because you got to report the injuries. And they're like, if he's got a weakness, just spear him in the ankle. First play.

Oh, my gosh.

Take him out. They don't have a snapper, right? So I did everything in my power to not limp or show any pain in pregame.

Oh, my gosh.

And I did it. And I remember the third warmup snap I had. I freaking did a dead sprint to the other side of the field.

Shut up.

Cried the entire way.

I'd be in pain just like I.

Was in so much pain. But that was my moment. And Coach Quinn stopped following me because he was like, oh, well, shit, this guy's got it. He's got it. He's fine. And, dude, it was the most painful thing I've ever done in my life. So what happens? First punt, snap it. Run down, solo tackle. I run by Coach Culley. What happens? About a minute and a half, two minutes left, we're down by one or two. What do we do? We snap the field goal.

Wow.

We snap the field goal, go up.

By one or two, end up being the game winner.

Oh, my gosh.

That's crazy. Crazy, right? And so. But now after. It was after the game that I realized that those dudes came up to me and said, thanks, Dorn boss. The guys that were gonna get cut.

Wow.

And for me, playing wasn't about a record. It was about me being a part of that family and me having those guys look at me and say, you were the right pick.

Wow.

And there's nobody else I want out there but you. And that. That's deep. Like, that's a deep Personal feeling of. I don't know if it's validation for ego as much as it is pride as much as it is respect versus ego. It's like, I want these guys to respect me, to know that when shit gets really hard, there is nobody else they want in there except me. For it doesn't matter. He'll get it done. Coach, this guy's going to get it done.

If he says he can get in.

And play, he'll do it. And so, you know, when that came up, I kind of reflected on all these things that I did and that I played through. And I was like, man, I'm going to make. I'm going to break a record. Wait a minute. And sure enough, I looked at the roster, and I was the oldest guy on the team.

No way.

And I said, get out of here. That's crazy. For about two weeks. And then we signed punter Donnie Jones, and he was like a week older than me. So then the game comes. It's game 162. So now they.

Consecutive games.

162 consecutive season games. That doesn't include playoffs. And so I played more. So funny. Ladies and gentlemen, we'd like to congratulate John Dornboss untying the great Harold Carmichael for the most consecutive games in Eagles history. So, like an idiot, I run out there. Yeah, yeah. Very next play. This hits the top of a helmet, wrist explodes, dislocate the middle lunate bone toward every ligament, and.

Yeah, that's pretty much.

Yeah. So I've had three surgeries, but I tied. Oh, no.

That's like, worse than this.

I made it over 11 years straight. Played through everything. This right here literally was impossible. Like, I had an artery damage.

That's what you're snapping with?

Yeah. So this thing was. It was done, but at least you.

Got it out there on the field. Yeah.

And you know what happened in the ambulance to the hospital? Because I had artery damage, so I was losing feeling and blood in my hand. So I had to go into emergency surgery to get the artery. Cause the bone dislocated and flipped over and pinched the nerve and artery. Right. So, long story short, I'm in the ambulance. I remember going, you know what? Harold's a pretty cool dude. He's the guy that had the record. And you know what? If I broke this record, he'd probably stop showing up for lunch on Fridays. So I text him, hey, man, there's nobody else I'd rather share this record than you.

That's cool.

I'd rather share it with you than.

Not than be alone. Yeah.

So just so you know, clearly I did this intentionally just to save face for you. Yeah.

See you keep showing up.

See you keep showing up.

I want to ask you about. This is amazing stuff, man.

We didn't even go into the heart.

That's what I was going to ask you right now.

Are you ready for this? So why does this hardcore.

So you got trade.

Why would they trade you?

Okay, here we go. So I do America's Got Talent.

Yes.

Okay. And now I become a finalist. And I didn't look at it at the time, but the Eagles got amazing publicity for it. I'm sure it was a win win for everybody. Huge. And I thought that I was representing the NFL in a positive way. And so I go back to training camp, I do this. Excuse me. I come back and I'm like, I feel like I'm Mr. Eagle, right? Most type of games. Hey, John, we want to trade you.

What?

Why? Huh?

You showed up through injury, through all this stuff.

America's Got talent.

Yeah, I'm Mr. Eagle. Like, you can't trade me, you know? And they said, well, and there was a younger kid that was that they brought in to compete against me. And now look, I'm 37 at the time, right? This kid's 23. Stud, stud, stud.

Fast, youth snap.

Just youth.

Crisp, lean. Yeah, Just bouncing right back.

You know, I just saw myself 15 years ago, right. Basically, the special teams coach wanted to go younger and it was just, it was time. And so the GM comes up to me and he says, hey, so we want to trade you. And honestly, I think he thought I was going to get really upset. And at first I was shocked. And then I. What? Yeah, but then I went, wait a minute, did you just say you're going to trade me? He goes, yeah, we've had some inquiries.

Inquiries.

In the history of the NFL, has there ever been a long snapper traded for? And he goes, actually, no, I don't think so. So I'm the first long snapper to ever get traded for a draft pick. Do it. I'm out if this is my real. But again, it comes back to this. If this is my reality, does it really matter if I agree or not? No, no, it's going to happen. It's going to happen. So you better, you better, you better come to peace with it and find the positive.

Wow.

So the owner calls me, hey, John, if you don't want to go, I'll X this trade. You'll be an Eagle retire forever. You'll retire an eagle. And I remember saying, jeff, I just, you know what? I'm going to let go of the need to be right. I'm going to let go of ego. It's time. I'm okay with it. Shake my hand. I love you. I'll do whatever you need for life. You gave me 11 great years. But if life's taken us in a different direction, it's just time. And thank you for 11 years. So what happens is I get traded to New Orleans. And so when I get traded to New Orleans, I play in a preseason game. The very next day I do a physical and they're like, yeah, okay, go down to the hospital, take some tests. Yeah, no problem. I go down to the hospital, take some tests. I come back, I'm getting ready for practice, My phone rings, I pick it up and, hey, John, this is the surgeon and cardiologist at Louisiana Hospital. Are you sitting down? I'm like, yeah, yeah, what's up? All right, I'm going to tell you this. You're never playing football ever again. Now keep in mind, I just signed a three year extension for more money than I'd ever made. Okay. I'm 37. I'm with a team that's wearing all black, so I'm going to look thin. This is great. They're indoors. This is amazing.

Drew Brees.

Drew Brees.

Yeah.

Really? And he goes, you're never playing football ever again. And you're going to be in emergency open heart surgery probably in the next 24 to 48 hours. So I need you to just sit there. Don't run, don't walk fast, don't drink caffeine, try not to laugh, try not to cough, try not to sneeze, don't lift anything over five pounds.

What?

Just sit there.

You're just playing a football game.

The trainers are literally walking in. So I take my cleats off and I scrape the mud off of them off the bottom. Cause I was getting ready for practice. Which brings up to another really intense thing. When my mom died during the trial, I just started biting my nails like crazy. And I could never stop. Never. And I'm a fast paced magician because I was always self conscious of my hands. I was always self conscious that when people were looking at my nails. So I was always really fast. I tried everything. The lacquer, that stuff tastes so good. I would eat that stuff, right? And so. But what ended up happening is I met my wife and she changed a few things in me that I wanted to change. And I Don't bite my nails in the wallet. That's cool.

You had some peace.

Peace. And then all of a sudden, I did America's Got Talent, and I wanted to do my ballad, and it was the first time I did a card trick on camera in front of the world. Slow. And for me, it was about showing the world I have nails. That was a big moment for me. That's cool. It's cool. So now all of a sudden, I scrape the mud and I feel it in my nail. And it was cool, right? Take my helmet off, put it in my locker, and I start tearing up. And at that moment, I got upset, and I started to being the victim, and I got pissed off, and I was like, dude, this is not how my career's going. My wife, my life. Like, everything's going so good. I'm here in New Orleans. Like, I'm happy. This is not happening. Right? And you become a victim, and all of a sudden, you start creating this narrative that, like, this isn't right. Right. And you start making excuses. It's not fair. So what happens? I see a dude walk by named Drew Brees, and I see his name Brees, and it took me back. I sit down, and I just kind of chuckled because it took me back to 2006, when I first signed with the Eagles, and I was in the tunnel. And Joe Santa Liquido was a reporter from espn. He comes up and he goes, john, can I ask you a question? I said, yeah, yeah. What's up? I heard that your mom's best friend, Leslie Moore, sang Wind Beneath My Wings at her funeral. Is that right? I'll be honest with you, Joe. Coming in, like, really deep there. I wasn't really expecting that. And I go, yeah, yeah. She actually sang it behind a curtain because she didn't think she could do it in front of everybody at the funeral. It'd be too emotional. Thanks, man. That was a great memory, you know? And he goes, you don't get it. I go, no, no. Bette Midler, 80s 90s beaches, Broadway. It's a great song, right? Great song. He goes, last time I checked, the words say, I can fly higher than an eagle because you are the wind beneath my wings. Well, you're an eagle now. You bounce around, kid. We all know it. So I'm just telling you right now, you work hard, you show up, the city's gonna love you. And if you get hit too hard, just stand up and open your wings and let the wind take you. You're gonna do great things, kid. I'm pulling for you. And I went, whoa, That's. Whoa.

That's pretty cool.

Whoa. So all of a sudden, I'm now sitting feeling, you know, bitterness, feeling like a victim, feeling like this isn't right, and making every excuse, blaming people, like, this isn't cool. And a dude walks by me with the last name Breeze. And I sat down and I said, you know what? It's time to rewrite this story. Are you kidding me? Whether you're religious or not, I was traded to New Orleans to be saved by a saint.

Pretty cool.

And at the moment, when I was at a low, a dude walks by me with the last name Breeze. And I looked up and I said, I get it, Mom.

Wow.

You just had to take the wind. You know, I had to step out of the wind and catch a breeze. And this breeze saved my life. So found out I had a severely leaky valve, which means the heart blood comes in from the lungs, and it shoots out the top. When my blood was shooting out the top, that valve wasn't closing, so the blood was going back into my heart. And so what happened is my heart got way too big. How could he track that?

The MRI scan or something?

No. So you take a few breaths, and they hear a murmur, like, in their back or whatever.

Or their chest.

Yeah, the chest. So I never knew it. Like, the doctor goes, take three breaths, and you're like, what am I doing? So he's listening for a drum. And your heart should sound like this, right? If there's a squish sound, that means that there's blood leaking. Where that squish sound happens is the severity of what it is. So I had a really bad leak in a bad spot, which means that the vein or aorta that leaves the heart, it started to blow up like a water balloon. So it should be about the size of a dime or a nickel. And mine was the size of a coke can. So the doctors were like, I'm just telling you right now, you're one hit away from dying. Like, if you get hit in the chest, you have a higher chance of that rupturing than not. And if it ruptures, you're dead before you hit the ground. There is no coming back.

Did you ever feel any symptoms?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. The doctor goes, you got any symptoms? I'm like, well, what's the symptom? Your back hurts and you're out of breath. Doc, have you seen the dudes I'm running around with right now? Every day? I'm a pudgy white guy. I'm out of breath for the last 25 years. And I'm 37. I get massages five days a week because my back's killing me. But I thought it was because it was football, but it was the aneurysm. So I got traded in New Orleans. It saved my life. I'm so happy it happened. But then it comes back to this. Had I had ego, had I wanted to show up in the Eagles building and look at a coach who made the right decision in moving on and signing this other kid to walk in there and say, I'm here. Now what? I die. Think about that. But instead, sometimes you just sit back and let life happen and just realize that it's okay. And that was years of these therapies, of having. It's my therapist looking at me saying, hey, guess what? I'll probably never see you again. But it's okay. Because when something ends, it's okay. Something will start.

This is crazy, man. I got a few final questions for you. I could go on for another hour or two. This is amazing, but I want to wrap this up for people. Imagine you get to pick the day when it's your last day here. Could be 100 years, could be 50 years. Just imagine you get to pick the day, and you get to achieve every dream you've sought out. You get to see your daughter and your family grow up. You get to be there for everything. You create whatever you want. You create a magical life. But for whatever reason, you've got to take everything with you. All your work, your books, your media content, all that stuff goes with you. So no one has access to your information anymore. The content you put out in the world. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true to your family, your daughter, friends, the world. Three truths that would be the lessons that you've learned in your life that you would say, hey, these are the only three things I could share with you that I know to be true in the world.

Got it?

What would you share?

Don't hate, don't blame, and just forgive a little more. If you do that, you'll find happiness. And happiness, to me, that's what life's about. If you find that, what else matters? Real quick, and this might go off a tangent. A genius convention calls me years ago, hey, we want you to be a speaker. And I'm like, you sure you got the right guy? Because I'm not a genius. And they're like, no, but you've achieved a lot of very. A lot of amazing Things at such a high level simultaneously, we want to know your thought process. So here's what we want you to do. Will you list your top 100 accomplishments in your life? And then we do this thing and we go in there and we create this chart and we diagram your life into words based on all this, and we can kind of get a sense of what type of personality you are and what motivates you. Right? So I wrote my list and I sent it back to him. And, dude, within two minutes, I got a call. We've never had a list like this. I'm like, what do you mean? Most of the time when people. We ask people to list their hundred accomplishments, it's materialistic or job related. The number one thing that you said you're proudest of as an accomplishment is you're happy.

That's cool.

Pride, determination, perseverance, ability to feel, have emotion, have clarity, to forgive. Like, these are the things that I was listing. Like, all the things that gave me a foundation that I learned throughout my life about, you know, through the therapy. It's. These are the things that make all those other things happen. But without this, none of that happens. So why does that matter? You got to. You got to have your own ducks in a row in your own head and in your heart, and then everything else take care of itself.

That's cool.

So I would say that if you want a goal in life, be happy and watch what happens. Watch what happens. Yeah.

The more resentful you are angry, the less those accomplishments are going to mean something to you. Also, you don't fill them up with the accomplishments.

And you better be real careful with the words that you tell yourself, because that right there, how you view yourself, how you talk to yourself, how you look in the mirror and how you perceive yourself, that's the same way you're gonna see the world, the same way you're gonna talk to the world, and the same thing you're gonna get out of the world. So you better be real careful on the story you tell yourself on how you feel about yourself. Otherwise, what are you gonna expect? And that can happen within ourselves. When I was in the hospital, you know, you're just sliding, right? Like, I could finally stand up after the surgery. Yeah, after the surgery. So I was in the hospital over 30 days post surgery. We had some white blood cell issues, hematomas and stuff we had to deal with. I would stand up, and I have a suitcase, and it was a suitcase with the tubes that came out of my stomach that was draining the Blood and the fluid so it didn't get my lungs. I'd pick up my suitcase, and I'd get the iv, and I would slide my feet to the bathroom, and it would take me literally two minutes to go, like, 10ft, right? And my wife would say, hey, don't close that door, honey. Don't lock that door. And so I thought, okay. Okay. So I'd go in the bathroom, and I'd shut the door, but I wouldn't close it. And that was my time. And I'd look in the mirror, and I'd cry, and I'd be like, man, dude, a few days ago, you were a professional athlete, and now you can't even walk to the bathroom.

Oh, my gosh.

And I would see I'd lost 30 pounds, sunken in, looking miserable. And I would have my pity party alone in the bathroom. And at the end of that little pity party, every day, I stood up, I held that suitcase, and it took a lot, but I would hold my head up high, and I looked in the mirror, and I told myself, you hold your head up. You be proud. You got this. Those are the three things I told myself. And sure enough, my wife and I would walk the hallway. And I remember Andy Reid, we were losing. And I sat behind him on a bus, and Andy Reid said, hey, if the captain keeps his cool, the ship keeps his cool. If the captain loses his cool, the ship loses his cool. So all of a sudden, my wife and I would walk around the floors of the hallway. Cause the goal would be make it to the end of the hallway, get your juice box, and then walk back back to your bed. And that was like a workout. And everybody looked upset. Everybody was staring at everybody. Everybody just looked pissed off. And my wife and I finally realized everybody's just scared. Nobody knows what to do. Nobody knows what's going on. And so my wife looked at me and goes, andy Reid said, when the captain keeps his cool, the ship keeps his cool. When the captain loses his cool, the ship loses his cool. What do you say we take over the ship? That's cool, honey. Let's go. So sure enough, we go out the hallway, and we start talking to people. She started talking to the husbands, the wives, and the brothers and sisters of the people. And then I'll never forget, I peeked my head in this room, and there's this old man just looking like. Just beat up. And I peeked my head, and I go, hey, you look like shit. And he picked his head up because he was not expecting it, right? And I'll Never forget. He goes, still look better than you.

Oh, that's good.

And I go, you want to head down the hallway and get a juice box? And he goes, let's go, kid. And so we both have our IVs, and we're, like, sliding our feet, right, going in slow motion. But we changed that hallway just by talking and just by bringing in, hey, guys, we're here. Let's make the best of this. That's cool. Let's change the world. Because guess what? The world ain't no man ain't done with you.

That's true.

So let's just figure this out, dude.

I love this man. This is a crazy story. John, I want to acknowledge you for a moment, for your perspective, because you've been through so many different challenges, but you have this mindset and this ability to perceive and retell a story to yourself, to find joy and happiness. And I think that's the biggest lesson for me, is most people don't know how to tell themselves a story about why they're here, why something happened, what their purpose is, what their mission is. But you continue to do that on every stage of life. And I think your adversities really make you a special human being. So I want to acknowledge you for your kindness, your energy, your heart, everything. You've got a book out. What's the book?

Where can I get it? 1. I appreciate what you just said.

Yeah, of course.

And that right there is what my book's about. And that's why it's called Life is Magic. I'm a magician. I love magic. But the magic's not in the trick. Right? The magic's in this world. It's in the story that you tell yourself, and it's in how you treat this world. And so I believe Life is magic. I believe in the signs. I believe that I did get. I stepped out of the wind and caught a breeze. I believe that my mom's necklace did go on a whale and a sea turtle and found its way around the world. I believe all that. That's the magic right there. So the book's called Life is Magic.

That's great.

And it's my journey, it's my therapy, it's the trial, it's the journal entries, and it's the things I did to find happiness. And I'm proud to say this. I don't have a PhD. I don't have a doctorate, but I've lived. And if you're somebody out there that's searching to find forgiveness in any part of their Life. I really hope that this will help you.

I love this man. And you're on social media.

Yeah. On Doornboss.

No.

Agent John, baby.

And my final question is, what is your definition of greatness?

Wow.

Keep it simple. Stupid. Right? Kiss the famous marketing slogan. Keep it simple. Show up. If you show up, it'll happen. And you know what? I played with a lot of guys who are a lot more athletic than me, a lot better than me, a lot taller, a lot faster. But I told myself, the guy that hires me is gonna be proud he picked me up. So what do you got to do? You got to show up every day. And what happened is I was on this path, and if you look at this table, here's that path right there. It just glows. And all of a sudden, people start jumping off the path. Over time, kids, drugs, failure, doesn't matter. Excuses, I don't care what it is. But if you stay on that path and people are jumping off, guess what happens?

Keep showing up.

You show up and guess what happens? You become the oldest guy on the team.

That's true. And you tie.

For the record, you want to be great, Just show up.

I love that.

And watch what happens.

John Dornbass. Thanks, man.

Thank you. This was awesome, dude.

Rockstar. Appreciate it, bro.

My friend, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Such an inspiring human being. I could have listened to him for hours, share his story. And I didn't want it to end. But it was so much there in this interview already that I thought you could get a lot of value out of this. So I hope you really enjoyed it. I hope it impacted you. I hope it touched your life. I hope you got some lessons from this. And life is not easy. Life is going to throw a lot of challenges at you. It's going to constantly challenge you. And it's our responsibility to figure out the best way to react and respond to life's challenges. And in no way is this easy. And in no way are some of these things fair. You know, it's not fair what happened to John and all these different things. But when we can take the moments that are unfair, that are unjust, that hurt us in extreme measures, and we can take those moments and find forgiveness, find the lesson, find acceptance, find. And we can move into something that's more powerful to heal ourselves, to impact those around us, that's where something magical comes. Not everyone is able to do this all the time. I'm not saying, you know, if something horrible happens to you, that you just have a smile the next day and it's all good. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is life can be extremely challenging. And that's why the school of grace greatness is something that I've created for myself, for myself. To learn these tools, to learn these stories, to learn how to navigate the challenges of things that don't seem fair, the things that you don't want to have happen. But this is what it's all about. We are in this together.

I've got your back.

And I hope you know that. I hope you know you are extremely loved. Even if you don't feel like people support you or understand you or love you, you are extremely loved. You are a unique human being, a one of a kind that will never be recreated. And we need you. The world needs you. And I hope you know that. I am just so grateful for John and I'm so grateful for you. I'm so grateful for you. And Nelson Mandela said, when a deep injury is done to us, we never heal until we forgive. Forgiveness is probably one of the most challenging things to learn how to do if you've never done it before. And I am right there with you. It's taken me years to forgive certain moments, certain people, certain experiences. And it's taken years to forgive myself. You're not alone. I've got your back. I love you so very much. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.

Hey, everybody, Ted Danson here to tell.

You about my podcast with my longtime friend and sometimes co host, Woody Harrelson.

It's called Where Everybody Knows your Name.

And we're back for another season.

I'm so excited to be joined this season by friends like John Mulaney, David.

Spade, Sarah Silverman, Ed Helms, and many more. You don't want to miss it.

Listen to Where Everybody Knows yous Name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson.

Sometimes, wherever you get your podcasts, what.

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